Second “Roast Busters” report released

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1. reason 1

   19 March 2015 at 12:59 pm

   Contrast the police behavior towards the roastbuster pack rapists ……… and their behavior and actions against Nicky Hager.

   For the life of me I can not see how things could be much different if Clint Rickards were in control of the police …………….

   Its like our culture has become some kind of Sabin soup.
   • Bill 1.1

     19 March 2015 at 1:09 pm

     Well, when you have a PM opining that they were just lads behaving like lads (or some such) it just doesn’t help, does it?

     And when you have a PM repeatedly referring to investigative journalists as liars and conspiracy theorists (and such like), it just doesn’t help much on that front either.

     Being deliberately kind about it, we essentially we have a PM flashing up green lights all over the place ‘permitting’ the police to zoom off in wholly wrong directions.
   • ghostwhowalksnz 1.2

     19 March 2015 at 1:50 pm

     Or the Urewera raids.

     Huge resources and manpower went into that, and heaps of things were done that werent legal.

     Roastbusters, hardly any followup and doing the procedures or legal avenues open to them.
2. Stephanie Rodgers 2

   19 March 2015 at 1:21 pm

   Paragraphs 84-90 are simply gobsmacking: the Police rejected the idea of prosecuting them for statutory rape because, in the Bizarro World occupied by our Police, statutory rape laws only apply to consensual intercourse.

   Like, even *the Roastbusters* themselves knew it was illegal to have sex with people under 16.
   • Tracey 2.1

     19 March 2015 at 1:24 pm

     There is alot of gobsmacking stuff in there. It is interesting that the police could be described as having behaved with respect and compassion toward alleged victims while doing nothing for a while about their complaints and misleading the public about whether anyone had laid an official complaint… just commenting in terms of definitions of respect and compassion.
     • Merrial 2.1.1

       19 March 2015 at 10:25 pm

       @ Tracey: “It is interesting that the police could be described as having behaved with respect and compassion toward alleged victims…..”

       This looks to me like an attempt on the part of the IPCA to temper the blast to the shorn lamb, so to speak. Though why it felt the need to do this is beyond me. The police are grownups and should take swingeing criticism on the chin; it wasn’t they who’d suffered grievous offending against their persons, after all.

       This entire case bespeaks a police force which doesn’t take seriously the issue of sexual violence against women and girls. I know they protest indignantly that they do, but their actions say otherwise.
       • tracey 2.1.1.1

         20 March 2015 at 5:14 am

         you only have to read the first 30 sections to see how it was being treated…. and that was with all those involved having lots of specialised training… so if the answer is more of the same specialised training, I dont hold out much hope for change.
         • KJT 2.1.1.1.1

           20 March 2015 at 5:40 pm

           https://www.greens.org.nz/news/speeches/speech-catherine-delahunty-speaks-ipca-report-roastbusters-case
   • ghostwhowalksnz 2.2

     19 March 2015 at 1:27 pm

     Thats doesn’t sound right.

     Normally a ‘defence’ to rape is that it was consensual.

     With statutory rape ie underage, you cant claim consensual as a defence.

     If consensual doesnt come into it, then its ‘standard rape’.
     • Stephanie Rodgers 2.2.1

       19 March 2015 at 1:32 pm

       See, you know this. The Roastbusters knew this. Anyone who’s ever watched a US cop show knows this. The New Zealand Police, apparently, did not know this.
       • Anno1701 2.2.1.1

         19 March 2015 at 2:31 pm

         in the USA the fact they took photos of the underage girls would have lead to production of child pornography charges and 25+ years in jail
3. rawshark-yeshe 3

   19 March 2015 at 1:28 pm

   My heart bleeds for where these young women are now years after the events.

   It is deserving of a fully funded study to explore the depths of harm they have suffered and what they have done with internalised self-blaming and trauma. The costs of being an ignored rape victim, abused by police after the rapes and re-victimised again and again.

   They will carry these costs for a whole lifetime, while the ‘boys will be boys’ are free to continue their tragic mysogyny still thinking rape is fun and non-existent.
4. mickysavage 4

   19 March 2015 at 1:30 pm

   I have done a lot of work out west dealing with young offenders. I note that the report confirms that Youth Aid were not consulted. If they had been the first thing that would have been organised was a family group conference and there would be very strong expections of a change in behaviour.

   That this did not happen is quite amazing. By not addressing the issue early on the police allowed an out of control situation to continue for far longer than it should have.
   • rawshark-yeshe 4.1

     19 March 2015 at 1:35 pm

     why would this be Marty ? Can you say ?
   • ghostwhowalksnz 4.2

     19 March 2015 at 1:44 pm

     The report says there was no indication that because one of the boys fathers was a policeman this had any influence in the early investigation.

     Ohh pleese. It wouldnt be written down for gods sake that ‘ we go easy because his dad is a cop’

     But you can see the hidden hand of external influences’

     PG 92:However, before this was undertaken, CYF were contacted by a detective at Auckland City CPT ( Child Protection Team)
     and advised that there was no need for CYF involvement or contact with the family due to the ongoing Police inquiry.

     Why would a detective from another police district be giving ‘orders’ in this way. ?
   • weka 4.3

     19 March 2015 at 2:04 pm

     “That this did not happen is quite amazing. By not addressing the issue early on the police allowed an out of control situation to continue for far longer than it should have.”

     This for me is the most gobsmacking thing. All the other excuses can’t defend the simple fact that irrespective of legality/illegality the police had an obligation to ensure safety and didn’t.

     “In the Authority’s view the officers should have identified the connections between the various cases and worked with other agencies to develop strategies to reduce the recurrence of what was clearly unacceptable and, in some cases, criminal behaviour. Victims were let down by their failure to do so,” Sir David said.

     What I want to know is why it needed an IPCA report to say this, and if this is localised to Auckland or applies across the country.

     We’re not in the 1970s anymore, so wtf have the NZ police been doing with their inservice training and community processes for the last 20 years?
     • Tracey 4.3.1

       19 March 2015 at 2:32 pm

       Every time the police mishandle a sexual crime investigation we get “reassured” (by the time the critical report comes out) that they (the police) have already implemented “cultural” changes… ICPA reports are frequently 2 years after events…

       And yet… here we are… again, and in a not insubstantial way.
       • rhinocrates 4.3.1.1

         19 March 2015 at 2:34 pm

         That’s the one that ALWAYS comes up: “Yeah, but it’s historical and we’ve made changes since then.” The needle on my bullshit meter just got bent by slamming into the end of the dial.
         • ghostwhowalksnz 4.3.1.1.1

           19 March 2015 at 2:56 pm

           Here it is :
           Police Minister Michael Woodhouse said the IPCA report clearly showed failures on behalf of individual police involved in the Roastbusters complaints.

           “That’s extremely disappointing. I’ve received an assurance from Commissioner Bush that the steps that are required to ensure this doesn’t happen again are being taken.”

           http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/67443183/ipca-roast-busters-report-slams-police

           Amazing how a group of individuals could all fail at the same time ( only one was partly heading in the right direction)

           Amazing too that another CPT detective from a different police district could get involved in Waitematas investigation, get it wrong too.

           And of course their is no evidence at all the fact one of the boys father was a police man had influenced the investigation. Except this father was from the central district, see above

           No siree, nothing at all !
           • weka 4.3.1.1.1.1

             19 March 2015 at 3:09 pm

             If a whole bunch of individuals are failing what is their boss doing?
             • tracey …

               19 March 2015 at 3:11 pm

               Hiding his involvement in one of the previous miscarriages of justice which we were assured was being addressed so it wouldn’t happen again? And while he was doing that, this one happened?
           • tracey 4.3.1.1.1.2

             19 March 2015 at 3:10 pm

             Who was Police Minister for a few years and at the point when this was being originally mis-handled?
             • rawshark-yeshe …

               19 March 2015 at 5:03 pm

               ann tolley .. she spoke to it this afternoon, but was then corrected for selective memory by Sue Moroney ( I think it was).
               • tracey …

                 20 March 2015 at 5:15 am

                 and Ms Collins, when did she hold the job?
                 • rawshark-yeshe …

                   20 March 2015 at 12:33 pm

                   wonderful world of wiki says:

                   Judith Collins
                   Minister of Police
                   In office
                   19 November 2008 – 12 December 2011

                   succeeded by Tolley … and what a funny verb in this context !
       • Merrial 4.3.1.2

         19 March 2015 at 10:54 pm

         @ Tracey: “And yet… here we are… again, and in a not insubstantial way.”

         Indeed. The Louise Nicholas case exposed the fact that misogyny is a deeply-embedded aspect of police culture. And organisational cultures can be surprisingly resistant to change: look at the difficulty the Australians have had attempting to eradicate corruption from police forces there, despite many years of effort.

         I don’t doubt that some police officers – the women at least, surely – find this aspect of police culture repellent; but until there’s a critical mass, backed by clout at a senior level, determined to force change, it won’t happen. You can’t just tell people to change their attitudes and hope it’ll stick. As no doubt some in the police have found out by now.
         • tracey 4.3.1.2.1

           20 March 2015 at 5:15 am

           Fair points. It appears at least one woman officer was on the specialist team too, messing up in the early stages.
           • Merrial 4.3.1.2.1.1

             20 March 2015 at 11:52 am

             @ Tracey: “It appears at least one woman officer was on the specialist team too, messing up in the early stages.”

             Yes, it’s a bit scary, isn’t it! But maybe we should possibly cut her some slack: it can be exceedingly difficult standing up against pernicious attitudes in an organisation, especially if it’s misogyny, and one is a woman. It takes a great deal of courage, especially when speaking out doesn’t bring about change, and there’s no support from whoever’s in charge. And that’s without considering the possibility that the female police officer had similarly misogynistic attitudes. It does happen: it’s only necessary to look at comments online to see this.
             • tracey …

               20 March 2015 at 11:58 am

               To be fair, the two people I know who are police officers (currently serving) are both women. Within a year of being trained and on the beat I saw them change. They became very racist and (understandably) began to see the world as potential scum bags and the police (understandable cos if you only see a certain side of life…). They soon began to socialise almost entirely with police colleagues (partly cos of the shifts I guess).

               They became harder, nastier, lacking compassion and very judgmental.
               • Merrial …

                 20 March 2015 at 2:12 pm

                 @ Tracey: “They became harder, nastier, lacking compassion and very judgmental.”

                 Yes, I’ve heard other people say the same thing. I suppose it’s not surprising, given both that they’re exposed daily to the seedy side of human nature, and that they associate daily with colleagues who have the same worldview.

                 It would be tempting, I imagine, to gradually limit one’s social circle to like-minded people; most of us do this to some extent, after all. But where the police are concerned, a broader range of contacts would be critical to keeping a balance in one’s perceptions of other folk; or so it seems to me. Perhaps this is a starting-point for wide-scale culture change in the police force?
     • Anno1701 4.3.2

       19 March 2015 at 2:36 pm

       IMO our police force is in a terrible state & we need some sort of inquiry into the endemic rot ASAP,

       You just have to look at the head of the Police Assn (Greg “Bang Bang” O’Conner ) IF this guy is who the police choose to represent them to the public its pretty dire…
5. ghostwhowalksnz 5

   19 March 2015 at 2:01 pm

   This from 2012: for Waitemata Police District

   Waitemata District Child Protection Team
   Contact: Detective Sergeant Tia Winikerei, North Shore Policing Centre, 52 Parkway Dr, Mairangi Bay
   Waves.org.nz

   Waitemata had their own CPT but instructions were coming from Auckland central CPT ???

   One of the Roast Busters is one Beraiah Hales, whose father is a police officer.

   Plus back in 2009 another police officer Steve Hales quit suddenly. No doubt he was tipped off too.

   “Police say they were powerless to discipline former police constable Steve Hales or stop him resigning after he was caught looking up secret details of sexual assault victims from the police computer.

   The Dominion Post revealed that Mr Hales was caught accessing secret details of sexual assault victims on the police computer, but left the force before he was disciplined.

   Mr Hales’ brother Warren Hales admitted abducting a woman for a pack rape by former policemen Brad Shipton and Bob Schollum, and millionaire Peter McNamara”
   http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/209056/Police-powerless-to-stop-Hales-resigning

   There was a Sgt Gary Hale at Auckland central up till 1998, who is now Manager of Ethics and Integrity at Auckland Council.
   This is not confirmed to be father of Beraiah Hales , a roastbuster.
   • weka 5.1

     19 March 2015 at 2:08 pm

     Is there a reason that Steve Hales couldn’t be charged with a crime?

     Is there an actual connection between Steve Hales and Beraiah Hales?
     • ghostwhowalksnz 5.1.1

       19 March 2015 at 2:46 pm

       Doesnt seem to be the same person as the Auckland cop who was a father.

       Could be just a coincidence that the family name Hales comes up again and again and any investigation just slips around them
     • felix 5.1.2

       20 March 2015 at 9:27 pm

       “Is there a reason that Steve Hales couldn’t be charged with a crime?”

       There’s a reason he wasn’t…
6. Tracey 6

   19 March 2015 at 2:33 pm

   Thanks Mickey for tidying up the post (link-wise)

   A BIG thanks to everyone who takes the time to read the actual report. I know that will be some who post and many who don’t.
7. rawshark-yeshe 7

   19 March 2015 at 3:09 pm

   URGENT .. House debating the report right now under urgency request of Carmel Sepuloni ….
   • rawshark-yeshe 7.1

     19 March 2015 at 3:10 pm

     being led by Jacinda Ardern …
   • tracey 7.2

     19 March 2015 at 3:13 pm

     http://www.inthehouse.co.nz/video/36211
     • rawshark-yeshe 7.2.1

       19 March 2015 at 3:48 pm

       Catherine Delahunty is superlative … nailing it …. systemic throughout society ….
8. tracey 8

   19 March 2015 at 4:00 pm

   One thing that really strikes me is the poor record keeping and the apparent lack of entering information into computer systems. For example a female can be involved in two different incidents, her name known to the police in both incidents, but, apparently, no system whereby if you type her name in a second time, it searches the system and lets you know she is in there on another case.
   • ghostwhowalksnz 8.1

     19 March 2015 at 10:21 pm

     Well the appendix to the report list the 10 process steps the police should take.

     Step 1: Record incident, event or occurrence – details are recorded into the Police computer
     system, the National Intelligence Application (NIA) and a case is created, with the ‘6C’
     incident code and appropriate offence code.

     Yes thats right it was number ONE.

     Part of me has a suspicion that there wasnt an investigation at all, and all we are seeing a bit a paperwork shuffled together to give the appearance something was done when it all blew up in their faces
     • tracey 8.1.1

       20 March 2015 at 5:16 am

       I wondered about that too, if not for CYPS records what would there have been of substance?
9. freedom 9

   19 March 2015 at 4:17 pm

   Readers of the NZ Herald’s on-line publication would have noticed a steady increase in official documents being presented as embedded items. This has been done, presumably, for full disclosure of the content being reported on.

   This has been a welcome and practical use of the on-line resources that can be shared as a digital society. When the information being shared is information that is freely available to the public it delivers an objectiveness to the reader that is often lacking in today’s journalism.

   Which makes it all the more distressing that the NZ Herald coverage of the IPCC ‘Roast Busters’ report fails to present the report as an embedded document, and this failing is then compounded by not even offering a link to the IPCC’s publication of the report.

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11419766
   • tracey 9.1

     19 March 2015 at 4:26 pm

     I wondered about that freedom. I had to go directly to IPCA website to find the report, neither stuff nor herald linked to it.
     • freedom 9.1.1

       19 March 2015 at 4:39 pm

       Which means every person who reads this thread has a decision to make.
       To share the link where they can, or join the MSM on a choke collar.
10. tracey 10

    19 March 2015 at 4:32 pm

    Tolley (Police) Collins (Police and Justice) Bennett (SD) – how lucky have we been for their oversight

    “Now Social Development Minister, Tolley said Child Youth and Family (CYF) would be next under the microscope for their part in the case.

    Tolley said Child Youth and Family (CYF), should also have done better. It would be the subject of a review by by the Office of the Chief Social Worker.

    “This whole affair is extremely distressing for the girls and their families – and it must not be allowed to happen again,” Tolley said.”

    stuff.co.nz
11. rawshark-yeshe 11

    19 March 2015 at 4:49 pm

    Very impressive speech by Amy Adams as Justice Minister; first time I have been able to have any respect for her in the house.

    Been an epic afternoon where women have taken over the house .. other than Police Minister Woodhouse.

    Women of all parties stood, spoke with eloquence for all NZ girls and women, mainly supported each other and possibly surprised even themselves.

    Natural matriachy is a subterranean river more deep than patriarchy could dare to imagine in its worst nightmare. This ingrained mysogyny must be made to change.
    • weka 11.1

      19 March 2015 at 5:58 pm

      😀
    • One Anonymous Bloke 11.2

      19 March 2015 at 6:03 pm

      +∞
      • rawshark-yeshe 11.2.1

        19 March 2015 at 9:39 pm

        🙂 what is that OAB ? don’t understand .. sorry ??
        • One Anonymous Bloke 11.2.1.1

          19 March 2015 at 9:44 pm

          Plus infinity 🙂
          • rawshark-yeshe 11.2.1.1.1

            19 March 2015 at 9:59 pm

            sweet 😀 .. thanks and so happy I asked !
    • Anne 11.3

      19 March 2015 at 9:25 pm

      I asked a senior Labour woman MP recently if there was a female MP on the opposite side that she respected. She mentioned Amy Adams. She doesn’t like her politics obviously and she did recall an occasion where she found her attitude wanting (can’t recall the subject matter) but overall she regarded her as… better than the rest.
12. rich the other 12

    19 March 2015 at 5:56 pm

    Time for society to take a look at it’s self .
    Consider what young people are exposed to , or have access to , and do we really care ?
    The behaviour of these boys is totally unacceptable but when pornography is so freely available on the internet their actions are not surprising .
    • One Anonymous Bloke 12.1

      19 March 2015 at 6:01 pm

      An inconvenient truth.

      Another one.

      If the reason is that the Parker Hales gang were simply mimicking porn, why are they mimicking disrespectful, violent behaviour?

      Edit: that most porn is disrespectful and therefore, violent goes without saying. Why is there such a large market for videos of crimes in progress?
      • weka 12.1.1

        19 March 2015 at 11:25 pm

        Your linked points are obscure and I’m not sure if you are saying porn is a problem or isn’t.

        If you listen to women who have partners who watch a lot of internet porn, there are many who talk about their partners expectations of sex and intimacy mimicing what they see in porn (and the obvious problems that follow). This doesn’t mean that watching porn causes abuse, but it does make it a signficant factor. That so much porn is objectifying and abusive is also significant. The ‘simply’ in your sentence belies the complexities.
        • One Anonymous Bloke 12.1.1.1

          20 March 2015 at 7:38 am

          RtO thinks the Parker Hales gang learned their behaviour from porn, as though the content has nothing to do with society’s existing attitudes. I think the content is driven by society’s attitudes, and so were the members of the Parker Hales gang.
          • weka 12.1.1.1.1

            20 March 2015 at 7:47 am

            That’s quite an assumption about RtO, esp given how the content of much porm is a problem ie making a generalisation about porn is understandable. It’s also possible that RtO is anti-porn irrespective of content, but how would we know without checking it out?

            “I think the content is driven by society’s attitudes,”

            I do too. I also think that society’s attitudes are in part driven by content, which is why we have advertising and Crosby Textor.
            • One Anonymous Bloke 12.1.1.1.1.1

              20 March 2015 at 7:57 am

              RtO draws an explicit link between the availability of the content and the alleged offending. In Parliament yesterday, we heard about offending going back to the 1970s.

              I don’t think blaming the internet is going to cut it.
              • weka …

                20 March 2015 at 8:34 am

                Neither is minimising the effect of the hugely increased availability of porn via the internet. Or the content.

                Nor reducing commentary on the availability of porn and its impact on culture to the simplistic idea you have about the argument.

                That offending predates the internet does not mean that the internet has no influence (that’s an exceptionally irrational argument). And abuse predates the 1970s, so it was a weird argument to make.
                • One Anonymous Bloke …

                  20 March 2015 at 9:21 am

                  I’m not minimising it: I’m saying it reflects society’s values.
                  • weka …

                    20 March 2015 at 9:29 am

                    You look like you are minimising to me, and because you haven’t actually clarified what you mean in response to me or what RtO said it’s reasonable to keep assuming that’s what you are doing.

                    I could be wrong, it could be your minimialist communication that relies on implication a lot that leaves me with that impression, but then I thought we’d covered this the other day, about why clear communication around such sensitive issues was important.
                    • One Anonymous Bloke …

                      20 March 2015 at 9:50 am

                      Part of the problem is that all the terms are so loaded. For example, take the phrase “sex industry”. It isn’t “sex”, it’s exploitation.

                      For example: “there is a large supply of women for the sex sector partly because the formal sectors of the economy do not pay adequate wages” (Lin Leam Lim), reduces the issue to one of supply and demand, and yet there are certainly economic factors at play.

                      I think a lot of this harm can be tackled by tackling economic factors: hence the second link above, regarding trust and happiness, and how they in turn are connected to the GINI.

                      There’s also a power dynamic involved, however: – “prostitution is fundamentally incompatible with gender equality.”

                      RtO treats the problem as mimickry without considering wider social factors and inequalities: both economic and gendered.

                      I may have this all wrong.
                    • weka …

                      20 March 2015 at 2:15 pm

                      RtO may be treating the probem as mimicry (myself I think the effects of online porn are more than is implied by the word mimicry and are a form of fairly potent socialisation), without considering other factors (myself, I saw someone say “hey, online porn affects this”, which IMO is true). But then you are treating the problem as an issue of equality without considering other factors.

                      There are probably quite a few women who don’t want to wait until the revolution comes and solves sexual violence, and so like to have political discussions on the wide range of things that lead to the Roastbusters situation, including the complexities of porn. That would also be sex workers many of whom are at a pretty high risk of sexual violence. Writing off their work as exploitation that will be resolved when the inequalities in society are solved does sweet fuck all for them now. A friend of mine who is a power whore, loves her work, is highly politicised around class, sex, rape culture, sex work, and many other issues to do with inequality, would would roll her eyes at the idea that she is being exploited at the same time as understanding the class and gender issues that put her and her colleagues at risk.
                    • One Anonymous Bloke …

                      20 March 2015 at 3:19 pm

                      OK, I see what you mean by minimising, and that’s a fair criticism: I’m conscious of the way some on the Left treat gender and identity politics, it hadn’t occurred to me that I was falling into the same trap.
    • Tracey 12.2

      19 March 2015 at 6:08 pm

      and when the PM makes a joke of a paedophile… reneges on an apology to a victim of attempted rape and his office backs a smear and watering down by an executive of cera guilty of sexual harassment you can understand why boys might think women are just toys
      • whateva next? 12.2.1

        19 March 2015 at 7:24 pm

        I did wonder if police’s avoidance of confronting the “Roast Busters” was a form of collusion. Very, very hard to make any sense of.
      • rawshark-yeshe 12.2.2

        19 March 2015 at 8:49 pm

        perfectly observed Tracey …
    • tracey 12.3

      20 March 2015 at 9:28 am

      If we remove access to porn will that stop sexual violence toward women and children and some men…
      • Bill 12.3.1

        20 March 2015 at 12:56 pm

        I doubt it. It might stop some ‘copy-cat’ acts being perpetrated by some people though. Dunno how to achieve it, but regardless of what sexual act some-one has in mind, if it could be got into every-ones head that nothing moves forward without consent, consent, consent!

        And since the law in NZ is that no-one under the age of 16 is capable of giving consent, then hey…

        As far as I’m concerned, if two or more people want to partake in some sexual act, even if I’d find it abhorrent, frightening or whatever, then as long as they are all knowledgeably consenting to whatever they are doing, then it’s none of my business.

        Reminded of an old case in UK where gay men consensually had their penises nailed to pieces of wood etc. The judge locked some of the men up for assault regardless of the fact that consent had been given and that it was just ‘their thing’. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
        • weka 12.3.1.1

          20 March 2015 at 2:22 pm

          There are pretty clear links between much of porn and treating women as objects who are there to serve the desires of men. Pretty hard to teach consent to boys turning into men when they’re also being taught that women are objects (acutally bombarded with that message in some cases).

          Porn isn’t just about copy catting (or mimicry). It’s a form of socialisation.

          “As far as I’m concerned, if two or more people want to partake in some sexual act, even if I’d find it abhorrent, frightening or whatever, then as long as they are all knowledgeably consenting to whatever they are doing, then it’s none of my business.”

          Except we live in a culture that often really doesn’t get consent right, and if we’re talking about porn, it’s not acts between consenting adults, it’s commercialising acts between consenting adults. The free to do what we like in the privacy of our own homes meme underpins the porn industry, and I’m willing to bet that the roastbusters boys and men have been affected by that (won’t be the only thing of course).
          • Bill 12.3.1.1.1

            20 March 2015 at 3:03 pm

            I agree that media, including but not limited to pornography, ‘normalises’ and ‘socialises’.

            All I said about pornography in my comment above was that I doubt that simply removing access to it would lessen abuse.
        • tracey 12.3.1.2

          20 March 2015 at 2:32 pm

          it would if you follow rich the other’s line of thought above… and i think that is what OAB was getting at.
          • Bill 12.3.1.2.1

            20 March 2015 at 3:07 pm

            Shit. Missed that your ‘question’ was kinda rhetorical.
            • tracey 12.3.1.2.1.1

              20 March 2015 at 3:21 pm

              😉
          • One Anonymous Bloke 12.3.1.2.2

            20 March 2015 at 3:42 pm

            Something like that. I was thinking that there are two issues at play: one: economics, by providing the framework for valuable work, can help people by giving them genuine opportunities. Two, addressing the power imbalance between men and women that underlies exploitation (and in the knowledge that as Weka points out, the decision to work in the ‘sex industry’ can be a positive one – sorry if that’s a misconception of Weka’s remarks above).

            Weka is right though: a rising tide might lift all boats, and there’s still a big difference between the boats.

            Right wingers want to ignore the economic issues and concentrate on “bad choices” and all their other deflections. I took RtO’s remarks as doing that.

            I expect I’ve still missed something.
13. Heather Grimwood 13

    19 March 2015 at 8:37 pm

    Tragic for women, and indeed men, of all ages that such shocking situations come to unchallengeable attention. It was wonderful to hear those speeches from articulate passionate women in the House today, but desolating to realise that their skills need to be diverted from their true purpose in parliament by the persistence…even seeming increase …in the disgusting attitudes of so many of he opposite gender.
    I believe strongly in the power of rolemodelling …enough said, although I would ask the decent males in our society to try and talk to or chide more immature peers with hope of changing their way of thinking.
14. les 14

    19 March 2015 at 9:05 pm

    compare this circumstance with the allegations against Assange and ask yourself…wtf!
15. RedBaronCV 15

    19 March 2015 at 9:58 pm

    And what did the police say before the victims elected not to proceed?
    “you don’t want to put yourself through that process?”
    • Treetop 15.1

      20 March 2015 at 2:28 pm

      “you don’t want to put yourself through that process?”

      Usually your comment is applied to an actual trial which is adverse.

      Time and time again the police have given assurance to the public that when they make a sexual assault complaint, that there are safeguards for the complainant and this is not seen to be done.

      I have to conclude that best practise is not occurring, that negligence has occurred, that there are a number of deficencies in the process of investigating a sexual assault complaint and that those who have fallen short are not suitable or intelligent enough to investigate a sexual assault claim.
      • tracey 15.1.1

        20 March 2015 at 2:35 pm

        and today they ask people to come forward vis a vis Roast Busters… I mean, REALLY???? After hearing of the fuck up they made last time and how they treated the young women? WHY would you, and the evidence? Hardly fresh…
      • RedBaronCV 15.1.2

        20 March 2015 at 8:21 pm

        I hate to say this but no – this type of remark is used to stop the complaints process dead – and then I assume the file is marked complainant does not wish to proceed.
        • Treetop 15.1.2.1

          21 March 2015 at 12:35 pm

          The conviction rate is 1%.

          I want to know how many sexual assault cases the police do not take to trial and why not?

          Last year I saw a doco about an African obstetrician in charge of tens of thousands of births and every death that occurred there was a discussion on whether or not the death could have been prevented. This strategy reduced the death rate by 10%.

          Police stategy has not changed except for being compassionate and respectful which should always occur when dealing with the public and not dumping files in a cabinet. Tracking processes are still not the best. (Lessons have not been learnt e.g. Rewa paper work).

          I just hope that the young woman who have been affected by inexcusable poor policing that the police reopen the file and apply the law where they can.

          It is up to the young woman when and of there own choosing on whether or not they make another complaint.

          Some sort of exemplary damages for police bungling needs to be awarded through ACC.
16. RedBaronCV 16

    19 March 2015 at 10:09 pm

    I’ve just been watching the urgent debate in the house clips.
    It’s difficult to tell exactly but it looks like mainly women in the house.

    So exactly where are the male MP’s? Why are they not there? Not their problem huh.

    We don’t have to look much further than that message to see why we have such a problem – the boys simply don’t care – they don’t want to be responsible adults and look after the interests of young people and do their part for society. Why? why don’t they care? why do they care so little they are not even there
    • weka 16.1

      19 March 2015 at 11:27 pm

      Women’s business. Pretty good argument for more women in parliament.
    • tracey 16.2

      20 March 2015 at 5:18 am

      Was the Minister for Womens Affairs there? Did she speak? Ms Upston (sp?)
      • RedBaronCV 16.2.1

        20 March 2015 at 7:56 am

        yes see the in the house channel
        • tracey 16.2.1.1

          20 March 2015 at 9:07 am

          thanks looking for her now
        • tracey 16.2.1.2

          20 March 2015 at 9:18 am

          couldn’t find her…
          • rawshark-yeshe 16.2.1.2.1

            20 March 2015 at 12:27 pm

            she was the very last speaker. watch amy adams if u have time, catherine delahunty and tracey martin ..
            • tracey 16.2.1.2.1.1

              20 March 2015 at 12:30 pm

              do you have the link to the debate? I can only scrounge up the question time link
              • rawshark-yeshe …

                20 March 2015 at 12:42 pm

                here u r … all of them …

                http://www.inthehouse.co.nz/tag/stage/2627

                also, Amy Adams as Justice announced there is to be a Victims’ Advocate appointed to work with all Ministries. Hope they appoint Louise Nicholas.
                • tracey …

                  20 March 2015 at 4:39 pm

                  thanks, so the only man who spoke was the Minister of Police?
                  • rawshark-yeshe …

                    20 March 2015 at 4:41 pm

                    in my recollection, yes.

                    and no-one from Maori Party ( shame) and neither ACT or UF contributed anything.
    • tracey 16.3

      20 March 2015 at 9:30 am

      And our Prime Minister? Can someone link me to his speech?
      • Merrial 16.3.1

        20 March 2015 at 12:10 pm

        @ Tracey: “And our Prime Minister? Can someone link me to his speech?”

        Well of course he wouldn’t have been there, still less making a passionate speech in defence of wronged girls. It’s a very long time since any of us would have expected anything of the sort from him.
        • tracey 16.3.1.1

          20 March 2015 at 12:17 pm

          well, he only says sorry for serious things…
          • rawshark-yeshe 16.3.1.1.1

            20 March 2015 at 12:29 pm

            and he is in japan .. but he wouldn’t have shown for this anyway.

            and if its all just “women’s business” maybe we need a women’s party ? shock horror, shades of the 70’s and all that … but seriously.
          • Merrial 16.3.1.1.2

            20 March 2015 at 2:19 pm

            @ Tracey: “well, he only says sorry for serious things…”

            Umm…… remind me: has he apologised for anything at all since 2008? I’m damned if I can recall any instances. Obviously nothing serious has happened here.
            • tracey 16.3.1.1.2.1

              20 March 2015 at 2:38 pm

              Yes, he was sorry for revealing Slater’s private communications…

              Says it all really
17. Merrial 17

    19 March 2015 at 10:39 pm

    @RedBaronCV: “It’s difficult to tell exactly but it looks like mainly women in the house.

    So exactly where are the male MP’s? Why are they not there? Not their problem huh. ”

    Maybe for at least some of them, it’s cringing embarrassment, such that they haven’t the cojones to show up in the House. Even though it’s their democratic responsibility to do so……
18. Dont worry. Be happy 18

    20 March 2015 at 12:14 am

    In most real jobs, if a whole bunch of you stuff something very important right up through not knowing what you were meant to be doing (the kindest but least plausible explanation for the Police failure) then apologies and promises to do better next time dont usually cut it. People get re trained, demoted, sacked or asked to quit. How come the cops just get to say “Oops, sorry”
    • tracey 18.1

      20 March 2015 at 5:19 am

      Yes, no suggestion of mass sackings… probably because these are the well trained and sensitive officers…. and if they go imagine what would happen to the next investigation… oh wait
19. Jay 19

    20 March 2015 at 12:35 am

    There is no such thing in nz as “statutory rape”. That is an American term.

    It is illegal in nz to have sex with a person aged under 16, but it is a minor offence when compared with rape in terms of penalty.

    This charge is generally only laid when there is a vast difference in age/maturity between the offender and victim, ie: 40 year old having sex with a 15 year old.

    The reason for this is that it isn’t seriously regarded by the courts or police if the victim and offender are quite close in age. Why? Because it is an extremely common situation.

    If the offender is 17 or 18 at the time of the offending it’s unlikely this charge would be laid.

    These young men would be doing cartwheels if this charge were laid. Why? Because if they’re charged with having consensual sex with a <16 girl, they'd quickly plead guilty and take their slap over hand with wet bus ticket, because now they could never be charged with Sexual Violation or Rape.

    All of this will be why, in my opinion, that noone has been charged – yet.
    • Murray Rawshark 19.1

      20 March 2015 at 2:49 pm

      Even when an adult is stupefied by drink and drugs, consent is not considered possible.
20. Murray Rawshark 20

    20 March 2015 at 4:14 am

    I suspect more than a few of ngati poaka would have been envious. I suspect the same holds for more than a few of our male parliamentarians. We’ve got a long way to go. Probably such a long way that we wouldn’t lose much by dismantling the police one district at a time and starting again. Start with West Auckland.
21. Merrial 21

    20 March 2015 at 12:06 pm

    @ Murray Rawshark: “We’ve got a long way to go. Probably such a long way that we wouldn’t lose much by dismantling the police one district at a time and starting again. Start with West Auckland.”

    A radical notion, but in fact this may be the only way to get rid of the problems pervading the police culture. The critical element relating to starting again is culture change, which would involve equally radical changes to selection and training of new recruits.
    • tracey 21.1

      20 March 2015 at 12:21 pm

      Revolution instead of evolution… applies to structures as well as “peoples”

      Sadly labour and national fiddle at the edges in a futile attempt to evolve so as not to scare the punters… instead of offering them innovation and something which might work…
22. Heather Grimwood 22

    20 March 2015 at 3:15 pm

    To Merrial…Yes as I said above also, culture change is the imperative, and must be hastened by those men who obviously are not responsible for the problem, e.g. MS of his column.
    • tracey 22.1

      20 March 2015 at 3:23 pm

      Yup, we have had decades (literally) of Police telling us the culture is changing, well, the time has come for people to be sacked, and if that means hundreds we have to suck it up and do it… Start at the top cos many of our ranking officers came through the culture they now say they will change.

      And let’s properly resource them, in terms of training and support to resist the de sensitization f what they see every day.

      And while we are at it, let’s reward nurses properly, as though they work in dirty, dangerous jobs that save lives too.
      • Merrial 22.1.1

        22 March 2015 at 12:24 am

        @ Tracey: “And while we are at it, let’s reward nurses properly, as though they work in dirty, dangerous jobs that save lives too.”

        Indeed. A more worthwhile use of taxpayer money, some might say…
23. rhinocrates 23

    20 March 2015 at 4:35 pm

    Bryce Edwards’ summary:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11420569

    Can we trust the pork? No. Is anyone surprised? No.

    Top tweets:

    http://liberation.typepad.com/liberation/2015/03/top-tweets-about-the-ipca-roastbusters-report.html

    Anyway, it has been educational and I’ve learned the difference between a serious crime warranting thorough police investigation and something not worth the bother. A serious crime warranting thorough police investigation is embarrassing John Key while something not worth the bother is rape. Nice to have that clarified.
    • Anne 23.1

      20 March 2015 at 9:23 pm

      Talking of top tweets, I like this one:

      nina ‏@aepocrypha

      According to Michael Woodhouse, IPCA Roastbusters report just shows “a disappointing exception in an upward trend in better policing” lol

      Imagine being married to that…

      May I express my affection for you in a horizontal scenario as represented by a flat surface such as a bed?
      • Merrial 23.1.1

        21 March 2015 at 11:15 pm

        @ Anne: “May I express my affection for you in a horizontal scenario as represented by a flat surface such as a bed?”

        Ha: DEElicious! Like being romanced by a memo-in-triplicate…
24. RedBaronCV 24

    20 March 2015 at 8:54 pm

    And if anybody suggests that the police are under resourced they should be referred to this:

    “These include a 20.1 per cent reduction in recorded crime in the past five years, meaning tens of thousands of people were spared the trauma of becoming victims. That’s what New Zealand Police is all about.”

    from here:

    Bush talking up the police in Jan
    so they should be able to cope with a 20% budget cut

    and the overpolicing of Nact party events would release even more for front line duties.

    and of course the police are victimising complainants themselves.
    • Treetop 24.1

      21 March 2015 at 1:10 pm

      With skewed family violence figures (the way assault stats are taken) and an increase in sexual assault. For the police and the government to say that crime has reduced by 20% this justs sends a message to bullies/thugs and sexual perpetrators that the police are not effective enough.

      What are the barriers for police to decrease family assault and sexual crime?

      A shortage of specialised social workers and the way which MSD and the police communicate/have responsibility does not always meld either.
      • RedBaronCV 24.1.1

        21 March 2015 at 7:56 pm

        Agree really looks like they are fixing the crime figures to get in with the Nacts but they can’t have it both ways – either figures are down so they have time to investigate or they don’t have the time and have fudged the figures ( and I would be very surprised if that wasn’t the case.

        And talking about wasted resources I saw the booze bus out again the other evening in our hood – testing at a motorway off ramp on a weeknight evening – 25 k’s out of town. So anyone they pick up will have already done there motorway mileage.
25. rhinocrates 25

    22 March 2015 at 11:26 am

    And another casually corrupt – and senior ranking – pig who decides to “forget” to do his damn job:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11421129

    On Thursday, Commissioner Mike Bush said “the focus of modern New Zealand Police is putting the victims at the heart of what we do and taking a preventive approach to offending blah wibble wibble rhubarb rice pudding cock-a-doodle-do dishwasher greep! I need to go widdles now honky-tonk piano!”

    Actually he didn’t say that, but he may as well have.
    • Treetop 25.1

      22 March 2015 at 5:03 pm

      “The name of the case file is assigned to detectives on a computer system, but the physical file needs to be handed to them.”

      There needs to be verification by the detective that they have received the file to avoid human error.

      About a month ago I listened to Judge Henwood (headed a panel to hear about historical abuse in welfare homes), Sonya Cooper (a lawyer with 100s of cases) and Garth Young (MSD representative).

      This MESS is going to take at least a decade to resolve and 5 years into the exercise, the barriers to have closure are so steep.

      In 1974 ACC took over coverage of sexual assault. There needs to be a new category to settle historical sexual abuse. As well there needs to be a harsh penalty for those who have the resources and influence (power to act) in current time and who FAIL to take the action available to them.

      ACC does not work for historical sexual abuse cases, and the system needs to be modernised, current survivors also face far too many obstacles.

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