She who channels her inner Monroe

Written By: - Date published: 1:34 pm, March 22nd, 2023 - 138 comments
Categories: feminism, gender critical feminism - Tags: , ,

Post by Lynn Williams. Originally published on twitter in early March.

Re the vexed questions posed by “she who channels her inner Monroe”, her apparent preparedness to ally with religious fundies and right wing extremists, and the predictable calls from sections of the left for her to be banned from entering/speaking in Australia and NZ.

My view on it is, if you sup with the devil, even if you use a very long spoon, you risk becoming the devil’s supper. The question is whether Kellie Jay Keen is merely looking for a free meal, or is she helping to plan and prepare the menu,  and if the latter, who’s likely to be on it?

We surely all agree that religious ultra-conservatives and the secular ultra-right hold a range of political beliefs and positions which are inimical to women’s and rainbow rights, even to a narrow view of those rights as structured in law.

They want to roll back both formal equality and changes in the social contract which are arguably just as important. They’re capable of conducting witch hunts that would make the pink-hued, soft-focus McCarthyism of the so-called “progressive” trans allies look like a picnic.

There can be no safe alliance with such forces. Women will not get to use them to their advantage. That aside, viewed tactically, the extremes of both sides of this issue are NOT where the battle will be won – that’s in the broad centre.

The religious and secular right know this but the tactically challenged on the neo-liberal left have yet to realise it. If it came to a choice between an alliance with political and religious forces promoting patriarchal family values, and so-called gender progressives I’d have to choose the latter because, viewed more widely than the narrow prism of gender identity politics permits, I have more in common with most of them. That some of them are so blinded by the identity prism they cast socialist feminists as the enemy is their failing.

Despite the numbers in the broad left who are still in full knee-jerk mode, I see more common sense, political probity and tactical logic in putting my time and energy into promoting my views on gender identity on the left because it’s my political home base and I know I won’t change hearts and minds that are set in the millennia old cement of patriarchal monotheism and modern forms of ultra-conservatism – let alone make headway against all the other malign interests that are coat-tailing this issue for political and financial gain.

People on the left need to realise that the moment it suits the suits, i.e. whatever track the money train is currently on, corporate capitalism will switch from support for social transgressivism into support for social conservatism, and it will do so in a heart beat.

In a world teetering on the edge of a perfect storm of social and natural catastrophes, surely the broad left needs, more than at any point in human history, to be united. A start point would be to focus on why this relatively marginal issue has become the focus of so much political energy and investment of so much political capital. Who really benefits from it? Hint: it’s not women; it’s not the broad left, and it’s certainly not the genuinely vulnerable trans people at the heart of it.

End sermon.

138 comments on “She who channels her inner Monroe ”

  1. weka 1

    NZ Herald have a piece by Bryon Clark asking the Minister of Immigration to refuse KJK entry. It's got some inaccuracies in it and some omissions. There's a fair amount of bias in the MSM coverage, so it's worth pointing out the details here.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/byron-clark-an-open-letter-to-the-minister-of-immigration-about-anti-trans-activist-posie-parker/ZPTRWH4ZDJHOHCE6JTSYIFRK5Y/

    • weka 1.1

      https://twitter.com/aniobrien/status/1638306173396090880

      Neither of these men have been proven in my view on the
      available material to have been engaged in anything that could reasonable be described as involving a hate crime.

      https://www.districtcourts.govt.nz/assets/secure/2023-02-21/d237647a0a/2022-NZDC-23665_R-v-Burgess.pdf

      From NZH's own piece on the arson,

      https://twitter.com/SelinaStreet100/status/1638334073964986369

      • arkie 1.1.1

        Ani is also repeating inaccuracies. From the article:

        Long-time friends Burgess and Phillips were enrolled with Turning Point Trust and used the art studio facility on a regular drop-in basis.

        Opposite the art studio was a timber-framed house used as a drop-in centre for Rainbow Youth and Gender Dynamix, offering mentoring and support to the LGBTQ and non-binary communities.

        Both Burgess and Phillips decided to light a fire next to the Rainbow Youth building and placed the wheelie bin against the house.

        When the police spoke to Burgess on July 1, he admitted participating in the arson but claimed he was told to do it by Phillips and got involved because he was going to be given $100. He also said Phillips told him, “that will teach them for being gay.”

        Phillips claimed to the police that Burgess, using a homophobic slur, said to him, “he was going to burn those ******* to the ground.”

        Tauranga pride advocate Gordy Lockhart said he was “absolutely appalled” by the “hurtful” comments Burgess and Phillips made to the police. He said the loss of the building — “a place of safety, support, acceptance and tolerance” — had “devastating” impacts.

        “For someone to just come along and destroy that space has been gutting…

        “While these two men have mental health difficulties that, in my view, is not an excuse.”

        • Drowsy M. Kram 1.1.1.1

          Thanks arkie – hate crimes (and slurs) against LGBTQ and non-binary communities do happen. Why is it apparently important to some people that the Rainbow Youth building arson in Tauranga not be considered a hate crime?

          • Shanreagh 1.1.1.1.1

            Possibly accuracy.

            But then

            'I couldn't possibly comment'

            • Drowsy M. Kram 1.1.1.1.1.1

              Accuracy is "possibly" an important consideration for some – I was thinking more about the other 'some', and there will be some (unavoidable) overlap.

              Best of luck to all who are and/or feel under attack, which will cover pretty much everyone – if it doesn't already.

              GLOBAL TRENDS 2040 – a more contested world [March 2021]
              Emerging Dynamics
              STATE: Tensions, Turbulence, and Transformation

              • Shanreagh

                Sorry I don't follow you and not really interested in doing a cryptic cross word.

                Unless it is accurate it is misinformation.

                After seeing the world at Covid time and reading all the misinformation and seeing the people damaged by it I have no time for misinformation.

                Say loud say it proud, accurately!

                • arkie

                  While it is accurate to say the crime wasn't considered to reach the level of a hate crime, it is inaccurate to say that it wasn't targeted towards LGBTQ+; they were not, as is claimed in Ani O'Brien's tweet about inaccuracies, targeting the Turning Point Trust. Why the distortion?

                  • weka

                    distortions on both side. It's good you bring it up. I'm sick of it all round tbh (and I pull Ani up on it when I've got the spoons).

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  Unless it is accurate it is misinformation.

                  When two or more apparently accurate fragments of information are incompatible ("An unhatecrime." @1.1 vs arkie @1.1.1), then imho either at least one fragment is inaccurate, or there is a bigger picture.

                  Among the calamities of War may be justly numbered the diminution of the love of truth [accuracy, if you will], by the falsehoods which interest dictates and credulity encourages. – Samuel Johnson [1758]

                  The 'heat' here is rising – I'm leaving this ‘kitchen’ and may be some time.

                  GLOBAL TRENDS 2040 – A more contested world [March 2021]

                  EMERGING DYNAMICS
                  SOCIETAL: Disillusioned, Informed, and Divided

                  Key Takeaways

                  Slowing economic growth and gains in human development, coupled with rapid societal changes, have left large segments of the global population feeling insecure, uncertain about the future, and distrustful of institutions and governments they view as corrupt or ineffective.

                  Many people are gravitating toward familiar and like-minded groups for community and security, including ethnic, religious, and cultural identities as well as groupings around interests and causes. These groups are more prominent and in conflict, creating a cacophony of competing visions, goals, and beliefs.

                  The combination of newly prominent transnational identities, the resurgence of established allegiances, and a siloed information environment is creating and exposing fault lines within states, undermining civic nationalism, and increasing volatility.

                  Populations in every region are becoming better equipped with the tools, capacity, and incentive to agitate for social and political change and to demand resources, services, and recognition from their governments.

  2. That_guy 2

    My suggestion is to take the successful approach of the gay rights campaigners of the 70s and 80s, who often took the approach of letting bigots speak to as many people as possible for as long as possible. Because if the views of this person are really so awful, terrible, no-good, and very-bad, then spread them far and wide and offend as many people as possible.

    But, of course, for some fellow travellers on the left, that's a risk, because it may just turn out that she's not a bigot, just (shock, horror) a woman with an opinion and a forthright speaking style, and a person saying quite reasonable things that were totally uncontroversial 15 years ago.

    What's the harm? If she's really such an awful bigot, please, spread her views far and wide and watch the public turn on her.

    And I repeat: why hand power to Nazis by allowing them to shut down any movement they don't like by simply showing up and saying "we're with them"?

    • tWiggle 2.1

      Hear her own views about New Zealand, from 19 January 2023 at her Facebook page. I am not a FB member, so the link may not work as a direct link, but won't know until I post. Apologies, it takes you to FB login only. Going in another way to her FB Kellie-Jae Kellie, eg through Duckduckgo, may get you there.

      https://m.facebook.com/kelliejaykeen/videos/farewell-to-a-leader-who-robbed-women-of-their-rights-jacindaardern-letwomenspea/1984028738457867/?m_entstream_source=timeline&__tn__=-R

      • tWiggle 2.1.1

        Oops, FB Kellie-Jae Keen.

        • tWiggle 2.1.1.1

          Double Oops, please look at the FB address. I have seen her name spelt assortedly in the last few days, and that was the one that stuck.

      • Trey 2.1.2

        Charming commenters on her page calling Jacinda Ardern a bitch. How can you say you support women while tearing one down.

        • That_guy 2.1.2.1

          Those people can't. Ardern was, is and will continue to be a legend in my book.

          I'm not them.

      • tWiggle 2.1.3

        And here Kellie-Jay Keen is with Sean Plunkett on The Platform five days ago

        https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=__BF6ex9CO8

        Can anyone update me on KJK's story of a NZ girl getting suspended after a transgender teen complained about her shutting herself away in a changing room cubicle when they walked in?

        All I can find is this item from 2017

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/trans-community-hits-back-after-teen-slams-schools-trans-toilet-policy/ABSY5R4AH5PKN3GDXYET66KYEM/

        The girl in question, in an all-girls' school posted a video saying she was shocked when her school accepted a transgender student, then spoke out on social media when that student successfully petitioned the school to use the girls' toilets rather than unisex facilities. The shocked girl said she and other girls weren't consulted by the school. The school had told her she could use the unisex toilet if she felt uncomfortable.

        No hint of a changing room ambush or of a suspension, although she may have copped one for the social media post.

        Transgender support organisations said the story had happened in the past, had been resolved at the time, and was being reheated by Family First.

        Is KJK conflating this with an ambush story from the US? This same story appears in her FB post.

    • M 2.2

      Things are different now. In the 70's and 80's they didn't have social media or even cell phones. This restricted both the rate and coverage of misinformation. People had time to think about the things they heard before passing them on. Nowadays folks are sharing stuff without even considering the accuracy or intent of the information.

      • That_guy 2.2.1

        I think this is a good point but I'm still not ready to give up on the concept of "sunlight is the best disinfectant". So the question is, how can this concept work in the internet / SM age? And I don't have a simple answer and I would value your thoughts.

        • tWiggle 2.2.1.1

          That's why I put up KJK's own post on NZ, and her interview with Sean Plunkett. Lots of sunlight indeed. I made my mind up about KJK as a person from her political statements about Jacinda Ardern. She lost my respect completely when she showed she amplifies ‘news’ from Fox Media and Alan Jones.

          Senator Pauline Hanson spoke at her #LetWomenSpeak rally today in Canberra. Firebrand Senator Lydia Thorpe, draped in a First Nation flag and wearing lovely slingback heels and a cute black dress, fell to the ground when tackled by police. She wanted to express her disagreement with the rally and with Hanson by stepping up to the mic.

          https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/mar/23/senator-lidia-thorpe-knocked-to-ground-in-struggle-with-police-anti-trans-rally-kellie-jay-keen-posie-parker-canberra-australia

          #LetSomeWomenSpeak is the correct hashtag for KJK's tour.

          • weka 2.2.1.1.1

            She wanted to express her disagreement with the rally and with Hanson by stepping up to the mic.

            then why didn't Thorpe just ask to speak? Any woman is allowed to speak, that's the whole point. Afaik you just have to let the organisers know.

            Coming up behind KJK while she is speaking and interrupting her with a shouting protest is not speaking at the mike. It's a protest. Good on her, she's free to do that. And protest that crosses boundaries usually ends up with policy involvement.

            • joe90 2.2.1.1.1.1

              then why didn't Thorpe just ask to speak?

              Why would an indigenous woman need the consent of visitors to speak on the grounds of the legislature she's a member of?

              • weka

                who was stopping her speaking on parliament grounds?

                • tWiggle

                  This may provide context for Lidia Thorpe's rage. KJK apparently in Hobart described parents of transgender youth as 'groomers'. It is unclear whether she mentioned anyone by name, and it's unlikely.

                  However, the trans stepson of Greens Senator for Tasmania, Nick McKim, was 'deadnamed' and abused for being trans on social media on the same day.

                  Thorpe is a previous collegue of McKim, and would have heard his speech in the Senate on the 22nd.

                  https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/video/2023/mar/22/greens-mp-condemns-kellie-jay-keen-in-parliament-for-treatment-of-trans-stepson-video

                  • weka

                    KJK verbally attacked a named Green MP multiple times who was standing with the trans rights activists, including calling her groomer for transitioning her child.

                    Groomer here means someone who grooms children to be trans.

                    The Green MP later went and stood behind KJK with a sign and was moved on by the police. Then later still she tweeted about KJK and what happened but did so in misleading ways.

                    https://twitter.com/CassyOConnorMP/status/1638029168691781635

                    https://twitter.com/wekatweets/status/1638044802460811266

                    My position:

                    1. using the word groomer to describe adults who promote transition of children is a weaponised use of the word given groomer is also used to mean paedophile. In this case I don't think KJK meant paedophile, but often on twitter when groomer is used it's hard to tell which people mean. Almost certainly it's a taunt as well as a lay person's propaganda tool. I've tried to point this out to GC people
                    2. as in the tweet, what KJK did was fucked up. She was enraged too. Lots of angry women at the moment all round.
                    3. KJK said yesterday that threats or attacks have been made against her own daughter. (you'd have to look it up, I don't remember the details, it's in one of her videos from the past day)
                    4. I think Thorpe has all sorts of valid reasons for being angry. I have no problem with what she did. I'm guessing it was a spur of the moment thing given her footwear. She's also part of the problem in that trans allies refuse to listen to the issues of women's rights, including many politicians.
                    5. we know for a fact that there are young people being transitioned who shouldn't be. We know this because of what happened at Tavistock, and because of Keira Bell and other detransitioners talking about it. We also know that overmedicalisation has been a problem for human societies many times and caused a lot of damage. TRAs and allies are in very large denial of this.

                    .https://thestandard.org.nz/why-is-the-uks-only-youth-gender-identity-clinic-closing-and-what-does-this-mean-for-new-zealand/

                    1. No Debate is a deliberate tactic to stop the issues being discussed. This is part of why so many women are angry, and it's a large part of KJK and LWS. It didn't have to be this way, if No Debate hadn't happened then we would have a lot of left wing voices speaking about the issues trying to resolve them without opening a door to Nazis. If you don't know what No Debate is, then please ask and I will explain.

                    All of which is to say this is a very complex situation with lots of layers and grey areas. It's easy enough to condemn KJK, for good reasons, but the TAs are also shutting down the debate so that we don't talk about the very real problems that she is highlighting.

                    Women aren't going to go away on this. More and more women will become aware of the issues and say no, this is not ok. It has the potential to stop the left from governing. It's a massive own goal for the left.

                • joe90

                  Thugs.

                  https://static3.stuff.co.nz/ezgif-com-video-to-gif-b07ba798.gif

                  Again, why would an indigenous woman need the consent of manuheri to speak on country?

        • M 2.2.1.2

          Let me give that some thought and get back to you, TG.

  3. Shanreagh 3

    I am tired of doing minor formatting on this site and finding that my whole post is lost.

    It is happening so often and this time it happened while I was highlighting 4 points to indent/number and the whole draft post is deleted.

    Grrrrrr

    Just in case it is my fault PC wise I will restart. I've been in the online formatting world since the 1980s and only on this site do things like this happen.

    • Incognito 3.1

      Don’t write your comments in the TS Text Editor. Write them off-line and when ready copy & paste in Text Editor, do the required formatting, and submit. Doing it this way, you minimise timing out. HTH.

    • weka 3.2

      I've been losing comments lately too since I started using Safari browser. Firefox is much more stable because the back button will show the comment box with text in it.

      But TS is buggy, pays as Incog says to put a copy in another app.

  4. Darien Fenton 4

    Don't care ; She is coming. I for one won't be wasting my time on such a Posie. She is a sideshow in the real world for most people who are more worried about how to pay their bills or stop the planet burning.

    • Shanreagh 4.1

      stop the planet burning.

      Truly ironic then to hear at Hobart meeting, the older woman speaker saying she wanted to be fighting for the planet and against climate change and she was boo-ed! By the trans activists.

    • Anne 4.2

      yes yes

      My first thought when I saw 'the photo' for the first time. Does she think she's Marilyn Monroe reincarnated? The more I hear about her the more assured I am she is an imposter.

      In a world teetering on the edge of a perfect storm of social and natural catastrophes, surely the broad left needs, more than at any point in human history, to be united. A start point would be to focus on why this relatively marginal issue has become the focus of so much political energy and investment of so much political capital. Who really benefits from it? Hint: it’s not women; it’s not the broad left, and it’s certainly not the genuinely vulnerable trans people at the heart of it.

      The author has got it right.

      • Shanreagh 4.2.1

        Oh dear this is unexpected from you Anne. Is Desley Simpson less of a person with a political view because she is blond and wears bright coloured dresses?

        Are the points about dress, looks sex that had a part in PM Ardern resigning so far in the past. Have we forgotten these?

        Does it matter what she looks like, dresses like?

        I liked Marilyn Monroe and I like Posey Parker. I like feisty women. I may not agree with all they say but I'm not going to criticise because she is a woman (immutable) and her dress sense.

        • Anne 4.2.1.1

          That was a passing shot Shanreagh. Sorry. Didn't mean to offend but couldn't resist. I am not a fan of flashiness in clothing or hairdos but then I'm old school.

          My quibble is that there are far more important issues we need to face. I certainly don't like the thought of anyone other than persons who are genuinely female entering a women’s toilet because there is a safety issue at stake. But by the same token I don't hold grudges against trans people. Having met the late Georgina Beyer and seeing what a super intelligent and genuine person she was, I object to trans people being sidelined because they can't help what they are. They are entitled to the same rights as everyone else.

          • Molly 4.2.1.1.1

            How are they sidelined, Anne?

          • Tabletennis 4.2.1.1.2

            “Having met the late Georgina Beyer and seeing what a super intelligent and genuine person she was, I object to trans people being sidelined because they can't help what they are.”

            Georgina Beyer was a transsexual, many of whom are not al all impressed being called transgenders, its just another Trans-ideology coup.
            Transsexuals have very little to do with trans-identified males.
            Think about the differences in motivation /health issues.

            There are many pictures and/or list of names of persons published who see themselves as trans-identified males who have raped, assaulted, abused and/or murdered women and/or children. Not a very intelligent thing to do.

      • Yes quote is spot on. Couldn't have said it better.

  5. Blade 5

    ''Re the vexed questions posed by “she who channels her inner Monroe”, her apparent preparedness to ally with religious fundies and right wing extremists.''

    You need to back that statement up with facts. It seems to me, like the majority of people who have no interest in feminism or transgender activists, that this section of society, including Kellie-Jay Keen, are getting way more media coverage then they deserve, or the public want.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11456405/Police-threaten-arrest-womens-rights-campaigner-doesnt-attend-voluntary-interview.html

    The unfortunate situation for the Left is this issue is becoming a millstone around their necks as the push back from conservatives and the general public is starting in earnest. People are waking up to how pervasive and powerful gender identity politics has become in societies and especially in schools in the US. There are many YouTube clips showing parents making school boards accountable for their perverse acceptance of schools teaching gender issues without parental input.

    • weka 5.1

      discussion about KJK’s connections to the far right and fundamentalists have been widely had for a long time including in the past week. If you would like to know something specific please ask.

      In the meantime, don’t tell authors what to do, especially Guest Post authors, that’s just rude.

      • Blade 5.1.1

        KJK denies any connections to far right groups and other undesirables. She says her Wiki page has been tampered with. I have seen allegations she's appeared on supposed Nazi broadcasts and has said derogatory things about Muslims. However, she denies that in this interview: ( link not given as Sean is considered offensive to some. It's a simple Google search)

        [deleted quote without link]

        What solid evidence is there against her being a hate filled anti trans nut job, Weka?

        And… let's say evidence comes to light that she has lied and is exposed as a covert right wing agitator. Should she still be allowed into NZ?

        • weka 5.1.1.1

          she has indeed appeared online with far rightists. And she's made a least one derogatory comment about Muslims that I've seen. These are not difficult to substantiate.

          What solid evidence is there against her being a hate filled anti trans nut job, Weka?

          Who said she was that exactly?

          If you quote you have to link. You know this. Quote without linking again and I will ban you because I'm sick of telling regulars to do this.

          • Blade 5.1.1.1.1

            ''What solid evidence is there against her being a hate filled anti trans nut job, Weka?

            Who said she was that exactly?''

            https://aucklandpride.org.nz/articles/auckland-pride-calls-city-to-action-to-stand-up-for-trans-communities-against-posie-parker-s-hateful-agenda/

            Plus, in a similar vain, by quote and inference, the media and politicians.

            ''If you quote you have to link. You know this. Quote without linking again and I will ban you because I'm sick of telling regulars to do this.''



            • weka 5.1.1.1.1.1

              I don’t know what your point is. Why don’t you read the post and comment on that?

              • Blade

                Given the turn of events since we posted above, the issue has now become very political. In fact, apart from the debate about free speech that many believe we shouldn't have unless it is ''right think; right speak, '' things may turn out to be the first real shots fired in the election campaign. Should KJKM be denied entry into NZ via a high court appeal, that'll supply endless ammo for the RIGHT of politics and conservative hardliners. Should she be cleared to enter NZ and her rallies result in violence, the media and the LEFT of politics would have a field day saying ''we told you so''. Chippy would feel chipper. And more repressive hate speech legislation would be tabled again by a re elected Labour Party.

  6. Shanreagh 6

    My view is this:

    Let us quit the talking. The Govt will not to anything to recognise womens rights. Men on the left, if my reading of many of the posts here is correct mainly see the issue through a trans lens ie a male oriented view. or say safe spaces is not a right and even if it was it is not an issue……so the old staying schtum/staunch argument

    Women make up 51% apx of the population, We have rights.

    We all have and deserve human rights and transgender people are no exception. However, accessing sex segregated or same-sex spaces and services, designated for people of the opposite sex, is not a human right

    As women’s rights campaigners we are extremely concerned about this conflict of rights.

    https://www.speakupforwomen.nz/post/media-release-march-21-2023

    • let us call on them (Govt & local authorities) to do the mahi (hat tip to Weka) to make safe spaces for both women and transwomen. There is architectural work being done on what safe spaces might look like.
    • let us call on men to think deeply about why trans people do not feel safe in the toilets of their own sex.

    Women are always so reasonable and perhaps we need to say

    'We won't put up with this any longer'

    PS The reason why some women's rights campaigners have found a listening ear on the conservative side is that often people on that side 'get it', they get the conflict of rights argument.

  7. Anker 7

    As a former leftie and Labour Party member I am more frightened of the left than the right.

    I know my own views on abortion etc and so don't share a lot of right wings views. It is patronizing to suggest to women that they don't know their own minds.

    • Shanreagh 7.1

      Agree totally Anker.

      I also resent anyone telling me my (read woman's) hard fought rights are less in the scale of things than those of a group that is in the minority. Not saying that this is an argument of numbers.

      I resent people saying

      a I have no rights to safe spaces,

      b) it is ok for me to have no choice about being counselled by a man about male violence, being sheltered in a rape crisis centre that includes males, or even of having to share my prison space with an intact male.

      As Anker says 'It is patronizing to suggest to women that they don't know their own minds.'

      • That_guy 7.1.1

        I agree.

        I am so, so tired of the opinions and rights of women being shouted down, mostly by people who speak with all of the entitlement and centering that comes from growing up as a man. I know how it works, I am one.

      • Anker 7.1.2
        • Thanks Shanreagh for all your supportive comments.

        I know we haven’t always agreed, but we sure do on this stuff and I guess it is healthy that we haven’t always agreed

        • Shanreagh 7.1.2.1

          Cheers Anker I know I am in for a good read when I see your posts, esp on this issue. smiley

      • M 7.1.3

        Hi Shanreagh, You said:

        "I resent people saying… it is ok for me to have no choice about being counselled by a man about male violence, being sheltered in a rape crisis centre that includes males, or even of having to share my prison space with an intact male."

        I'm wondering why it's okay to be biased against men in these situations but not okay to do the same toward PoC, Muslims, LGBTQ+?

        • Shanreagh 7.1.3.1

          I don't understand your points or perhaps you don't understand mine? smiley

          Women's rights is a set of issues that has been around since women originally fought for, and got the vote here in NZ in 1893 and we had the likes of the suffragettes in the UK.

          This is based on biology. Males are different from females, biology-wise and by act/s of the patriarchy over thousands of years what was biology became supremacy over females,

          It was often accompanied by explicit laws preventing women from working or if they worked prevented them from getting the same pay rates as men.

          Most census figures give women as a group around 51% of the population.

          Now up until later in June when women went to a Rape Crisis centre they could be assured that the counsellors & helpers there were female, biological females. Many women in extreme crisis cannot bear anything to do with males esp if there has been domestic violence involved.

          Most females in crisis do not expect or accept that they will be counselled by a male. Many women would class trans females as males. A changed birth certificate is usually not evidence that would contradict one's eyes.

          The experience in women's prisons where transwomen have been placed is not inspiring. There are several well known transwomen who were placed in women's prisons one called Isla Bryson

          "Isla Bryson, who transitioned from a man to a woman while awaiting trial for raping two women in 2016 and 2019, was sentenced Tuesday to eight years in prison in Scotland. The case sparked a heated debate as Bryson was briefly placed in an all-women's prison before being moved to a men's facility amid a public outcry." Wiki

          There have been cases where transwomen have assaulted females and in a couple of cases pregnancies have resulted.

          Women being prison is often a frightening experience. They are at their lowest ebb and often come from abusive households. It is unconscionable for a transwoman to be placed in a female prison especially where this person has not fully transitioned or transitioned at all.

          So rape crisis centres & prisons need to be able to place transwomen in prison where they cannot force themselves on women and rape crisis centres need to be able to appoint bio females to staff, to only have bio females on staff if need be..

          The argument is male/female. The argument is women should maintain the ability to have a choice as to whether they are helped/counselled etc by a male or a female. The experience in some jurisidications is that they won't.

          Hopefully in NZ we will through HR Act. safe spaces and protected spaces that mean that bearing in mind the clientele the employers can offer a choice.

          It is not about POC/Muslims, green eyes/ blue eyes/Anglican/short people/tall people/fat people/thin people/whether people are union members etc or issues of culture or colour. Though I know that woman of colour may want to have the choice to be counselled by another bio woman of colour

          The concept seems hard to grasp for some. It may be that many are not aware of the struggles that woman have had to gain acceptance. Work, lives for themselves with people they love who may be other women, let alone issues of birth control & access to abortion. We have had cases of gross medical misadventure on woman as a class 'the unfortunate experiment'

          https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2022/05/05/brighton-rape-crisis-centre-sued-over-refusal-to-offer-female-only-groups/

          Sorry for length.

          • M 7.1.3.1.1

            Thank you for your in-depth response.

            You said:

            "I don't understand your points or perhaps you don't understand mine?"

            That is entirely possible. smiley

            I'll get back to you once I've had a chance to find the examples you gave and get a better picture of where you're coming from.

          • M 7.1.3.1.2

            Hi Shanreagh, thanks for your patience.

            I understand the points you're seeking to make, I'll attempt to steel-man your POV and you can tell me if I have it wrong.

            You believe that females have experienced systemic & personal harm from males due to the male domination of females throughout history to the present day. You believe there are innate 'qualities' in males that are biological in origin which contribute to their potential for harm toward females. You believe these qualities persist after transitioning and are present in MtF transgender persons. You believe that the rights of victims to feel safe and be attended to in their times of need and vulnerability supersedes the rights of transwomen to be recognised and treated as women.

            My position is that it's discriminatory to restrict or negate the basic human rights of any group and I'm morally challenged to balance that with the needs of victims of violence.

            I acknowledge that a battered woman may find the idea of being counselled by a man or transwoman distressing and the victim absolutely should have a choice about who attends to her needs but that choice should not be inferred and should not extend to employment bans in shelters for men or transwomen.

            I don't think it's reasonable to treat all males as though they are all responsible for all the horrific violence in our society. Research shows that 96-99% of males are not violent and that a mere 1 % of the population is accountable for 63 % of all violent crime convictions (and yes, I know men are the majority perpetrators of violence).

            You said:
            "So rape crisis centres & prisons need to be able to place transwomen in prison where they cannot force themselves on women"

            Research shows that among female former state prisoners, the rate of inmate-on-inmate sexual victimization was 13.7% meaning female inmates have more to fear from other female inmates than they do from transwomen.

            You said:
            "The argument is male/female."

            No it isn't. Whilst it is true that men and women have biological differences we cannot reasonable boil down those differences to a binary equation. What makes us men and women is on a spectrum that we have only just begun to understand.

            It is the persistent divide of male/female enacted in gender roles and attributes that continues to fuel gender violence. We know this because societies that are highly egalitarian have much less domestic and sexual violence. The Batek people of Malaysia are a perfect example of this. I've included some links in case you wanted to read research about this.
            The relationship between egalitarianism, dominance, and violence in intimate relationships
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3485398/

            https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263388649_Violence_Fear_and_Anti-Violence_the_Batek_of_Peninsular_Malaysia

            You said:
            "It is not about POC/Muslims,… or issues of culture or colour."

            Actually, it is (although I'm ignoring your attempt to delegitimise my point). When we allow discrimination that favours the rights of one group over another we set ourselves up for future harm. What if women decided that they didn't feel safe around Muslims because some Muslim beliefs are misogynistic?

            We need to find solutions that don't involve suppressing the rights of others and I know that will be a very difficult thing to do but it's never ok to discriminate against an entire group over the actions of the few.

    • SPC 7.2

      Gender ID is of the socially liberal, acceptance of diversity within society, ideology. It's not left wing.

      Which is why some on the left, who link sex and race based equality on a par to working class struggle, have concerns.

      No non left parties opposed the self ID law here, neither National nor ACT. And it’s similar in Oz and many nations in Europe.

      And more women support gender ID recognition than men.

      Those who ally to the GCF cause are often social conservative (some identitarian) groups involved in culture wars in matters of sexuality and race.

      That KJK herself also says that the threat is from the left, confusing it with neo-liberal acceptance of the equality of citizens despite difference within the market, is not helpful to the success of the cause (with one exception the Tory government in the UK blocking self ID in Scotland – though that also involved JKR). But will guarantee further support from social conservatives.

  8. Shanreagh 8
    • Who really benefits from it? Hint: it’s not women; it’s not the broad left, and it’s certainly not the genuinely vulnerable trans people at the heart of it.

    Ok I'll bite why is it not women who benefit from safe spaces, being able to chose one's counsellor, expect that a Rape Crisis centre will be staffed by females, or that a prison won't women's prison won't have intact males in it?

    I note that woman often come into these places at crisis points in their lives and many have no money. So being denied access to a counsellor provided at low cost or no cost because of a wish not to be counselled by a man in effect may mean she gets no counselling at all.

    We have seen in the UK that this has happened.

    https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2022/05/05/brighton-rape-crisis-centre-sued-over-refusal-to-offer-female-only-groups/

    https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/help-sarahs-legal-challenge/

  9. Phillip ure 9

    I think she is channeling her inner-trump..

    She is certainly using the trump-playbook…

    • That_guy 9.1

      So Trump is a serial sexual abuser who boasted about "grabbing women by the pussy" and this women wants women to have spaces where it's impossible for a man to ever do any such thing.

      I'm not seeing the connection, sorry.

      • Shanreagh 9.1.1

        No me neither. I didn't think Trump was especially noted for his strength on women's issues such as access to safe spaces or general women's rights.

        Perhaps Phillip Ure could find us the links to support his view.

        Though I won't be holding my breath.

        KJM is here on a campaign about Women's rights.

        • Phillip ure 9.1.1.1

          I would refer you to her final line in that posted tweet..(that I watched ..)

          Where after issuing legal threats she stared down the camera and said:..'I never lose..!' .

          How is that not pure trump..?
          Braggadocio with a big ‘b’..

          And of course I am not comparing their politics ..it is the way she plays the media/her audience…

          She is using the Trump-playbook…

          • Shanreagh 9.1.1.1.1

            And the Trump playbook is?

            So anyone who says bring it on when people try to wrongfully bully is using a Trump play book.

            Surely you know as well as anyone to deny entry to someone on spurious grounds is subject to appeal, to censure even up to UN level and also to personal threats of libel or slander.

            Officials have to make decisions on legit grounds only and not to do so exposes the decision maker to legal action on the grounds of natural justice and misreading/misapplication of the statutory provisons.

            If you know that the so called grounds to deny her being put forward, the high test, the previous court cases are worthless then you could be pretty confident in saying 'bring it on'.

            I am sure she is aware of all the rubbish being spoken about her and knows where she is personally.

            I guess some may think that being forthright is a man's position only and this may have shocked some.

            I personally love it when people say 'up yours with bells on' when they know they are in the right. I especially like it when the person saying it is in the right and a woman.

            I feel that there may be a challenge by a pro bono group to the decision much like the Recordon challenge to the Springbok tour. INZ has been challenged in the past and hopefully they have got their ducks in a legislative row on this.

          • Anker 9.1.1.1.2

            You don't usually hear women saying "I never lose" so good on her. She has got real ovaries.

            Of course at Trump rallies he was always keen to hand over the microphone to let them speak.

    • Molly 9.2

      Women have been cancelled from holding meetings in public venues to talk about their concerns over legislative and policy changes.

      So, the #LetWomenSpeakApproach has been to take the events to the public square, so they can't be cancelled.

      Permits are obtained when necessary.

      The platform is that KJK acts as MC, and invites women up to speak.

      There is no curating of women or their speeches.

      Have you listened to any of these women? How does this compare to Trump?

      https://twitter.com/EdgeWatching/status/1637296808622985216?s=20

  10. SPC 10

    In the sense that GCF reject gender ID as not real, it is sort of funny that RNZ are discussing this and referring to Kellie-Jay Keen as "Posie Parker", not her full twitter handle Posie (conscious rebel) Parker. The real question is whether her name was formally changed to Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshall on marriage or not.

    Everything but, what she would say and why is covered.

    It's fairly standard, the neo-liberal centre consensus and identifying conservative social critics via association with extremists on the right from international sources (not mentioned WLF).

    • Shanreagh 10.1

      I think you are trying too hard when saying women's rights activist reject gender. Gender is a continuum.

      I don't think how KJM or PP wants to be dealt with is anything to do with gender but is rude & bad manners like putting a Mrs in front of s person who is married but goes by Ms, using someone's 'dead name' ie he name they used before transitioning etc.

      It is accepted and dealt with like any belief system such as a belief in a gendered soul, or the afterlife. Sensitively as well all have beliefs.

      It is a bit different when you are talking about biology or science..

      • SPC 10.1.1

        No, while one can be a womens rights activist and recognise gender is a continuum (within birth sex and onto transbirthsexgender) – there are those who reject the validity/reality of gender ID.

        The perspective here is a objection to stating both a female birth sex and a female gender (because of not recognising any gender not in accord with birth sex … )

        https://www.speakupforwomen.nz/post/so-you-don-t-want-to-fill-in-the-census

        https://www.speakupforwomen.nz/post/census-questions-let-s-get-writing

        • Molly 10.1.1.1

          Yes, SPC, you can be a women's rights activist and not agree on issues with other women's rights activists.

        • Shanreagh 10.1.1.2

          I have read the links and don't understand where you are coming from.

          The first one is what to do if you don't want to answer any of the questions on gender. Many woman don't like this question as they think male/female is all they need. Others don't want to participate in the Rainbow idea and wanted to have a button where they answered "I don't want to answer this question"

          The advice is not just aimed at women but anyone who did not want to answer the question. It is not only women who are concerned. Not all women are concerned.

          The next one has a suggested draft letter.

          There have been concerns that unless we have a general idea of what the specific birth sex was we won't have good data for health planning. Just because you now have a female birth cert if you were born man you still may need monitoring for prostate cancer etc, Then 'acquired' sex may show needs is need for other types of planning.

          • SPC 10.1.1.2.1

            You asked for evidence of GCF who do not regard gender ID as real. I provided links

            The first – no gender ID, so cannot say male or female or other

            The second –

            I don't have a gender identity, just a sex yet it won't let me skip the gender question.

            Gender identity is an ideology

            • Shanreagh 10.1.1.2.1.1

              Again I am not sure of the point…..as someone upthread or might have been in previous threads said that accepting gender is like accepting a soul or the afterlife.

              Clearly there will be people who accept the soul and afterlife and some that don't some will be female and some will be males.

              i really have no concern about gender as long as it is not used to hurt or harm me or mine in any way and it 'doesn't scare the horses'. My objection is to people trying to pull the wool, or should that be the knickers, over my eyes and saying this bio man is a real ie bio woman.

              Quite happy to have my tax dollars used to provide safe spaces/rape crisis centres/special spaces in prisons for transwomen but please don't make me disbelieve the evidence of my eyes.

  11. Cricklewood 11

    The Neonazis that turned in Melbourne are probably laughing… they got to harass Trans activists and smear a feminist all at the same time.

    They're friends of neither, they way we're reporting it here and not to mention the political comment doesn't reflect that reality.

    • Shanreagh 11.1

      Agree totally.

      It also puts the power in the Nazis to say who is a person worth listening to. They don't agree with KJM or transactivists but in Nazi things.

      I somehow don't thinks my dad & his brothers fought in WW2 to have people say because Nazis interrupted a meeting that they are the ones worth listening to instead of the actual speaker.

    • SPC 11.2

      They used her right to free speech to assert their own. The police having to separate them from the protestors led to the proximity.

      That said, her willingness to appear on right wing forums has taken her to some dubious places.

    • Anker 11.3

      100% Crinklewood. Well done Nazis …job done (huge amount of sarc).

      Left smearing Kellie Jae playing into Nazi handbook

      I

      • Shanreagh 11.3.1

        The total left smearing has left the field wide open for…….

        ta dah

        the conservatives yet again…..

        and our OP is bemused that women's rights activists 'talk' to the right.

        • Lynn Williams 11.3.1.1

          I'm not at all bemused, Shanreagh. I understand fully why some women's rights activists have come to believe that the only course of action left open to them is to ally with political forces which, by any objective measure, are inimical to women's rights. I even sympathise but I think it is wrong.

          • Shanreagh 11.3.1.1.1

            Sure I agree but what do women do?

            Keep banging heads against the broader left wing, & getting nowhere

            or

            get their voices heard, at least, by listening people.

            I think by looking at the history of Women's Rights nothing has been given to us by those holding power because it seemed like a fair and good idea. Women have had to make the case for change.

            I regret that Women have had to go to conservative people to get a hearing. I think women are wasting our time trying to get LW men to think through the issues. The boat for the legislation change has sailed with the con "No Debate'.

            We are now left with a small window, possibly, to effect change to policy/procedures. The legislation comes into force on 15/6/23. After that we will need to have a watching brief to see that Women remain safe and are enabled to access women only facilities if this is safest for them.

            The legislation is not as bad as some in that some steps along the way to transition have to be made before an application is made.

            We hopefully will not get to the stage where women have to sue to get access to counselling facilities that do not include men (transwomen are not bio women) as in Brighton England

            https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/help-sarahs-legal-challenge/

            https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2022/05/05/brighton-rape-crisis-centre-sued-over-refusal-to-offer-female-only-groups/

            • weka 11.3.1.1.1.1

              get their voices heard, at least, by listening people.

              Which people specifically?

  12. Stuart Munro 12

    The writer seems to be of the (erroneous) belief that sexual transgressiveness is a moral good:

    People on the left need to realise that the moment it suits the suits, i.e. whatever track the money train is currently on, corporate capitalism will switch from support for social transgressivism into support for social conservatism, and it will do so in a heart beat.

    It is not, and never was. It is – at best – a value neutral stance, possible enjoyed by its adherents, but merely tolerated by the much more numerous socially progressive. The affected proportion of our society is remarkably small – fractions of a percent – but somehow they feel entitled to demand to strip away the protections from 51% of the population. It's about time this unruly tail stopped trying to wag the dog.

    The decline of public debate arises from the spread of postmodernism – a philosophical error preferred by groups addicted to special pleading – cognizant of the fact that objective treatment will see their stances debunked. Dugin is one example. And contemporary Trans activism is another. Thus it is that they mobilize anonymous quasi-paramilitaries, the so-called pound shop ninjas, and try to silence dissenting opinions having no hope whatsoever of winning support by argument.

    • Lynn Williams 12.1

      The writer holds no such belief, Stuart, but is utterly fascinated by how you arrived at that conclusion. And it's social transgressivism, I refer to not sexual.

      • Stuart Munro 12.1.1

        It really makes no odds – flouting social conventions that evolved to achieve an approximation of representative justice is no virtue either.

  13. Shanreagh 13

    I love TS.

    I love TS even more when we have such great posts as

    Stuart Munro's.

    Thank you Stuart, I learn something every day from colleagues on TS. This is my 'lolly' for today!

    The decline of public debate arises from the spread of postmodernism – a philosophical error preferred by groups addicted to special pleading – cognizant of the fact that objective treatment will see their stances debunked.

    smiley

  14. Anker 14

    Once again 100% Stuart Munro.

  15. tWiggle 15

    Stuart Munro,those at either extreme of this debate are so passionate because they experience the position of the other side as an existential threat. That saddens me. Inclusivity is about 'and', not 'or'. It is very possible to have the 'and' with a bit of thoughtful consensus.

    I feel we also need to remember that NZ is not the UK or the US. More real action will be achieved when we focus on the sticking points in this debate in our own society. That goes for both sides.

    • Shanreagh 15.1

      tWiggle my very rude 14 year old self would have said

      'dream on'

      Unfortunately because the left was totally consumed by the 'No debate' idealogy it effectively means there is no debate. We have no levers to sit down and discuss and work together.

      Trans activists have the legislation and they do not have to build up a constituency for change which is where the rough edges are rubbed off many of the ideas in a democracy. The ones left at the margins, perhaps up to 51% of the population know that there is no ability by either side to compromise and so nothing to be gained. We either have to be quiet or make ourselves safe by other means.

      Hence my view above that we quit trying to change this legislation, that we concentrate fully on the legislation/policy of safe spaces etc, looking at Human Rights etc

      We boost these up, work with experts to see how safe spaces can work. We empower by legislation to support our Corrections people to refuse to place untransitioned males in female prisons and we empower organisations such as Rape Crisis Centres, who may come under safe spaces anyway to have the ability to appoint women to women counselling services when this is best practice.

      Here is a very careful analysis of the Scotish and England postion from Julie Bindel, a feminist who has published in Al Jazeera.

      https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/2/3/scotlands-gender-recognition-bill-would-have-harmed-women

      Because NZ rushed this legislation through we have missed out on the consensus/possible best practice that is evident in the debate in UK.

      The legislation comes into force on 15 June 2023

      https://www.justice.govt.nz/family/change-the-sexgender-on-a-birth-certificate/

      The trans lobby has nothing to talk to women or anyone else about. They are now focussed on shutting up all non believers hence the OTT Nazis etc tropes.

      • SPC 15.1.1

        There was no debate here because there was cross-party consensus in parliament (same as in Oz and many EU states).

        You are right about the strategic approach.

        Others

        1. allow women's refuges to determine their own safety policy, right to exclude people deemed to make the women there feel unsafe.

        2. allow women's groups (including lesbians) to set their own definitions for inclusion (as per religious groups), in real life, or online.

        Legislative

        3. legislative change – private members bill – no self ID for those who have committed violence.

        • Visubversa 15.1.1.1

          There was debate – there were hundreds of submissions in opposition to the Bill. They was ignored and the submitters were abused by some of the Parliamentarians on the Committee.

          • SPC 15.1.1.1.1

            Not really, if there is cross party consensus SC submissions do not lead to debate. Media barely cover it.

            • Shanreagh 15.1.1.1.1.1

              SPC the impetus to this change in the BDM categories was world-wide and entitled No Debate. The reason for the cross party consensus in NZ was that all parties were conned by this world-wide No Debate cause.

              In fact in NZ many of us tried to turn it into a debate by using the only means available to us and that was to make submissions to the SC. As Visubversa says many subs were given a once over lightly and some in person presenters were treated very rudely by members of the SC.

              Hearings by the SC can in fact lead to changes to the legislation, even if it is cross party.

        • Shanreagh 15.1.1.2

          Agree with these.

      • Stuart Munro 15.1.2

        I was about to say the same. The 'no debate' policy is in and of itself divisive – at odds with the principles of democracy that its proponents are trying to use to enact law that lacks rationality, much less public assent.

        The small minority which is the LGBT&etc community is no more appropriate an oligarchy than the usual clique of billionaires – neither is capable of representing society at large on its own. Disproportionate influence by either group, or indeed on the part of any similar minority interest group that lacks broad support needs to be handled with restraint, not autocratic impositions upon the public at large.

  16. Belladonna 16

    Beginning a post with a title, and continuing with a first paragraph which primarily addresses the appearance of a woman with whom the author disagrees, is profoundly misogynistic.

    Does it matter that she is blonde – and apparently reminds you (or those you are quoting) of a mid-20th-century movie star?

    Surely the most important thing is what she says, rather than how she looks.

    • weka 16.1

      afaik KJK looks like Marilyn Monroe intentionally. I don't think it's disparaging to reference that.

      The post says channelling her inner Monroe, it doesn't say PP is a bimbo.

      • Belladonna 16.1.1

        You mistake my point. I don't care whether the OP approves of the way KJK looks, or disapproves. It is not, nor should it ever be, the lead point of a story about a woman politician or activist (or whatever KJK is).

        The way she looks is totally irrelevant to what she says. And it is misogynistic to tie a woman's appearance, in any way, to the validity of her argument.
        I cannot believe that this debate is still being had, on the left, in the 2020s.

        You brought up the issue of being a bimbo – so it sounds as though the subtext of the MM reference has achieved exactly what the author intended.

        • weka 16.1.1.1

          I didn't say anything about the OP approval or disapproval of KJK's looks. I said that it's not even about her looks, it's about the inner Monroe. You appear to be taking any mention of Marilyn Monroe as being about her looks. I mentioned bimbo because you seemed to be saying there was something wrong with MM or KJK's appearance or mentioning.

          You'd have to ask Lynn what she meant, but the way I took it is that KJK has an inner sense of herself as Monroe-esque.

          If the reference to her looks is neutral I can't see the problem. Women have bodies, we're allowed to note when women look like other women.

          • Belladonna 16.1.1.1.1

            Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

            I certainly know that in any professional situation, I would be *profoundly* unhappy if the lead was my appearance. What I wear or don't wear, the colour of my hair, my size, etc. – has absolutely nothing to do with what I have to say.

            I choose to extend the same courtesy to female politicians and/or activists – from any political orientation.

            Treat others as you would like to be treated.

            Clearly, as this debate has been had before on TS, others here disagree.

            • weka 16.1.1.1.1.1

              Probably the biggest disagreement is that I don't think the OP says anything about KJK's appearance.

              Re the vexed questions posed by “she who channels her inner Monroe”…

            • Shanreagh 16.1.1.1.1.2

              I agree Belladonna it is a 'tricky' approach. Thanks Lynn Williams below.

              I remember the furore that Siouxsie Wiles got about the colour of her hair & believability and ex PM Ardern about everything about her femaleness. Desley Simpson could also be 'ironically' said to be channelling her inner Marilyn Monroe, though I doubt she is.

              It is there in the article but it adds nothing to it. Comments on appearances in a serious thoughtful matters rarely do.

              I am a specialist of irony, I like to think. I did not read the comments about JKM's appearance as irony. I read them as those type of comments people say about Siouxsie Wiles hair, about fat people and ex PM Ardern.

              From this I deduce that for irony to work the information needs to be known in advance or shared by reference. The lay reader about KJM, like I am, did not know if she did or did not channel herself in this way.

              '…..her in a classic 1950s Monroesque style, I popped it into the thread.

              There was no image popped into my thread. The first image is is in Weka's thread and is not a cartoon.

        • Lynn Williams 16.1.1.2

          Thank you for making the effort, Belladonna, but I don't need a lecture about misogyny or ideal feminist praxis, and your suggestion that I intended to make readers think of PP as a "bimbo" is a stretch – almost into the realms of snark.

          The piece is a verbatim Twitter thread that was turned into a post for TS. As Twitter threads don't have a title, the heading was by default.

          You will also note that the phrase in the text is in inverted commas which signals such things as it is meant to be read advisedly, is intended to be ironic, or it is a quote. In this instance it's meant to be ironic, and as PP's supporters have produced a cartoon image of her in a classic 1950s Monroesque style, I popped it into the thread.

          The fact that you have ignored the content of the rest of the thread to focus negatively on that one point serves to illustrate how divisive and diversionary all of this is.

          I don't agree with Kelly's tactics, and my politics and theoretical approach to women's rights and to gender identity differs from hers but I quite like her personal style as it happens and I acknowledge she is gutsy and way more outspoken in public than I'd be prepared to be.

          • Belladonna 16.1.1.2.1

            Please re-read the comment thread, Weka brought up the phrase bimbo.

            My comment was entirely around how inappropriate it was to begin any piece of political commentary about a woman, by referencing her appearance.

            Perhaps this is a case where the 'irony' was apparent in the original Twitter feed – but none of that background was available when it was 'translated' into a TS post.

            The fact that the rest of the content is derailed by the initial paragraph – perhaps illustrates just how divisive and diversionary it was.

            • Lynn Williams 16.1.1.2.1.1

              I'm aware Weka brought it up, Belladonna, and you then turned into an attack on me -suggesting that had been my intention in using the phrase which so offended you.

              I agree that the way headlines and first sentences are written in the modern media are critical as a lot of readers don't go beyond that ,or they allow the initial impression to influence their view of the rest of a piece.

              I expect a more nuanced reader on a site like TS; readers who don't allow a heading or a sentence, or in this case a single phrase, to colour their view of the whole argument.

              If you knew me, you would know that my line on this issue is principled, well researched, and very long-standing. My political loyalties lie on the left. The fact that corporate capitalism has gutted the left and frog marched parts of it up the political and critical culture-de- sac of identity politics, does not mean I am going to abandon my principles and join hands with those forces which, on every other issue and level, are my political opponents.

  17. tWiggle 17

    Why dream on? I take it the law you disagree with is the self-identification of transgender part https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Births,_Deaths,_Marriages,_and_Relationships_Registration_Act_2021, bolstered by protection against discrimination on the basis of gender in the Human Rights Act 1993, right?

    The proof of the pudding is in the eating, I say. Legislation is law, not policy, not institutions, not how the practical nuts and bolts will be carried out.

    • Shanreagh 17.1

      More real action will be achieved when we focus on the sticking points in this debate in our own society. That goes for both sides.

      This was where my views were aimed. The boat has sailed with the legislation, we have the policy to work on and procedures etc.

      Of course but we can still work hopefully within the law as it is now to boost up safe spaces etc. Railing against the legislation is a dead duck unless the Nats see an opportunity to say they will have a close look, and I am doubting that they would.

      Many of the transactivists seem anti women, or perhaps distaining of women, from my foray into their twitter world. or perhaps it is the concept of women. Apart from trying to explain that being pro women does not mean anti trans, I get very little sense of them being aware of any risks to anyone else, how to counter the risks, how to get others along etc etc.

      So that is why I am pinning my work for the future on safe spaces, women being able to accept/expect to be counselled by bio women if need be. Those sorts of things.

      • SPC 17.1.1

        At times the transgender activists (not all transgender, mostly the TIM’s identifying as women) seem to offer a parody of out and proud on the one hand and on the other incels Q'ed via 4 chan to strike at women's safety, so women know they exist. The hybrid between the two appears to have been "sissy porn".

        The idea that some of this is reactionary misogyny and deliberately crafted as a culture war issue is a plausible plot for a mini-series. Maybe, The Culture War Card. The House of Cards has some spare actors.

        • SPC 17.1.1.1

          This is why some of the transsexuals (as they were known before they had the right to identify as women) were/are/have been wary of the gender identity movement's activism. Thus a generational division between them and younger transgender women. Both of these have been able to identify as women through a (health system managed) process.

          The problems in the health system with younger people (medicalisation in error) has paralleled the arrival of the self ID movement. This is another area for some activism.

  18. Shanreagh 18

    Bearing mind the whole current shambles on Self ID came about because of the dead rat No Debate ideology being swallowed holus polus by several parties in the NZ Govt….this comment is interesting.

    It provides a welcome change from the comments on SM that have excelled themselves in denying people their right to be people with opinions by serving out a range of slurs. Some of them are such dead boring slurs that are often inherently contradictory.

    I guess calling people names just carries on the No Debate mantra to a conclusion. They seem fiendishly angry as well.

    Let us hope that the policing of the events is better than it was in Australia.

    https://plainsight.nz/is-the-no-debate-strategy-working/

  19. Shanreagh 19

    Rachel Smalley with a good article.

    https://www.todayfm.co.nz/home/opinion/2023/03/rachel-smalley-no-one-has-the-right-to-stop-women-from-speaking.html

    She is particularly powerful with the point about politicians stepping away from taking sides

    and this

    'What is the logical solution? It’s really simple. Let’s speak. Let’s talk. Let’s korero. Let’s find a way to support women and girls who say they feel concerned for their safety in some environments, and to enable transgender women to co-exist in a space where they also feel safe and validated too. There absolutely IS a conversation to be had.

    You cannot silence people on the basis that you don't agree with them. This is New Zealand – not Russia or Saudi Arabia.'

  20. Jenny are we there yet 20

    @ 2:47 minutes
    "….the majority of the reception we got in Australia was very positive"
    Stefan Molyneux

    @9:48 minutes
    "Oh trust me, the audience [in New Zealand] was very interested in what we had to say, that is why we sold out a venue"
    Stefan Molyneux

    2018 – Far Right Canadian anti-Islam extremists Lauren Southern and Stefan Molyneux, are allowed entry to New Zealand and Australia to give a speaking tour.

    2019 – Far Right Australian anti-Islamist extremist commits a massacre of Muslims in Christchurch.

    I shot an arrow into the air, it fell to earth, I knew not where….

    • weka 20.1

      Are you saying that the Chch murderer was influenced into murder by NZ allowing Southern and Molyneux into the country?

      If that's not your point, please explain what it is. If it is your point, it still needs explaining.

      • Jenny are we there yet 20.1.1

        Normalise hate against a minority in society; and the alienated, the impressionable, the angry, in that society are sure to act on it.

        Not long after the Christchurch massacre I was visiting the Springhill prison. If you have ever been to the Springhill prison, you will know that you have to park your car some distance from the prison gates and walk the last 200 or so meters on foot.

        As I walked on the footpath to the prison gates, I happened to fall into step with an elegant tall woman in an immaculate business suit, who didn't look at all like the average prison visitor. Out of curiosity I asked her. And she informed me that she was an anger management counsellor.

        I asked her does it work?

        She said it does.

        As we were at a penitentiary and as the Christchurch atrocity was fresh in my mind.

        Conversationally I remarked; 'That young man in Christchurch could maybe have benefited from some anger management."

        I wasn't ready for her sharp retort. "No he wouldn't He is an Australian"

        Surely you don't mean that? How can you justify generalising against Australians like that?

        She then became quite animated and passionate and quite heated, (for an anger management person).

        She said, "I know what I am talking about I worked in Australia for four years." She looked distressed and angry at the recollection.

        I mentioned my encounter with this anger management counsellor in a phone call to my brother who lives and works in Perth in Western Australia. In an understated way he simply said, of Australians. "They have issues."

        In my opinion you normalise hatred against any minority you are going to have issues.

        Lauren Southern and Stefan Molyneux, Posy Parker are political opportunists who have monetised hate, funded to fly round the world by their backers. What do they care about the fall out. They will be long gone and can wash their hands of the violence and intolerance they normalise.

        • weka 20.1.1.1

          that's well argued Jenny. I disagree that KJK is simply a grifter, she seems clearly invested in women's rights within the scope of her own politics.

          The problems is that despite her anti-trans rhetoric, she is right about women's rights. And the reason Posie Parker exists is because No Debate silenced left wing voices who would have argued for women's and trans rights had we been allowed. Now women are being forced to choose between the own politics/rights and gender ideology and its zero surprise to me that many choose women.

    • Shanreagh 20.2

      I don't get this. Why are you platforming these people Jenny? Do you agree with them? If so why put them on a thread to do with women's rights.

      The issues are not remotely similar to the issues of Women's rights.

      If you don't agree with the point above please explain.

  21. DS 21

    Being a Bad Person (and this person definitely qualifies as such, IMHO) is not grounds to stop them entering New Zealand.

    The Transgender Activists trying to get a Judicial Review of Wood's decision are wasting their time and money, unfortunately.

    People on the left need to realise that the moment it suits the suits, i.e. whatever track the money train is currently on, corporate capitalism will switch from support for social transgressivism into support for social conservatism, and it will do so in a heart beat.

    People on the Left need to realise that corporate capitalism has embraced social liberalism because social liberalism is zero threat to capitalism.

    • roblogic 21.1

      Exactly. Corporate rainbow washing is completely absent in majority Muslim countries.

    • Shanreagh 21.2

      People on the Left need to realise that corporate capitalism has embraced social liberalism because social liberalism is zero threat to capitalism.

      I think we may have known this or sensed this DS. Those in the 'fight' have had thier opinions validated or at least seemingly heard by those on the Right.

      Men on the left seem to decry Women's sex based rights, if not decrying them our sex based rights seem to be invisible. Why is this?

      With my 1970s feminist hat on it seems an instance of continuing misogyny. But I couldn't possibly comment.

      My nuanced 2020s hat is puzzled that some thing so positive, the granting of rights to people to live as themselves, has degenerated into a movement that unashamedly says for this people to be able to live as themselves we have to take away the sex based rights of women. I struggle not to see this as misogyny of some sort.

      As Weka says

      23 March 2023 at 8:06 pm

      What I don't understand is why progressive men can see it's shit for trans women but not for women.

      23 March 2023 at 9:32 pm

      I didn't call progressive men anti-women, I'm asking why they support trans rights but not women's sex based rights.

  22. Phillip ure 22

    Back in the late sixties/early 70's ponsonby was a very interesting place to live..lots of maori/pacific islanders..students..hippies…artists..activists..Junkies…the gluepot pumped most nites..

    Also in the lineup were sally and tilly..they were both males and somewhere on that spectrum..and dressed/wore makeup accordingly..
    (I am unsure which bathroom they used.. would probably have been accepted in both..)

    And they were friends…and fellow druggies…

    And there was never any sense of them being 'the other'…in any way…they were just sally and tilly..part of that kaleidoscope..

    And that is what disturbs me about this dialogue..

    It is making the sally's and Tilly's of today..the other..

    And that is not good..

    • weka 22.1

      I agree that's not good. Also not good is dehumanising women by calling them menstruators while still calling men men. Or the women in prison who've been sexually assaulted by violent men who self ID. It's shit all around. What I don't understand is why progressive men can see it's shit for trans women but not for women.

      • Phillip ure 22.1.1

        I never heard sally and tilly…or anyone else..use that term to describe women..

        And that touches on an offensive presumption in this dialogue..that men opposing this 'other' poison being peddled..are somehow automatically anti-women in some way..

        That is just bullshit on a stick..

        I think I will stand behind Chloe swarbrick on this..

        She will be there.. protesting against this travesty ..

        And I don't think she can be called anti-women…

        • weka 22.1.1.1

          I didn't call progressive men anti-women, I'm asking why they support trans rights but not women's sex based rights.

          If you don't know who is calling women menstruators, you could educate yourself, because right now it looks like you are talking on a topic where you are unaware of what the issues are.

          https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=menstruators

        • Shanreagh 22.1.1.2

          Ya see Phillip Ure I was also around in those times and was actual friends with two, we called them transvestites/transsexuals who lived in Grey Lynn/College Hill. Their names were M**** and F**** & they used their male names as they worked (pay was better as a male in the PS).

          The women's clothing they wore was strictly an aid to finding other males. They were gay you see. Homosexuality was still illegal in those days They went to the male loos unless their going out clothes were too awkward such as hot pants when used the female loos. At work they used the male loos as they were males.

          They were not anti bio women. I guess their views were a bit as Georgina Beyer's were reported to be. Not sure about what is currently going on.

          Today with homosexuality legalised and civil unions there is no need really to use these same sex attracting outfits per se though obviously it provides an extra frisson and who would deny that!

          So Phillip Ure what do you say about lesbians, women who love women being forced by legislation, when on dating pages, to accept that male bodied people may apply as they call themselves lesbians too.

          Here is how it happens male bodied person get female birth certificate, he may not have fully transitioned to being a female, so still has the male bits..

          Says they are a female looking for female when they are untransitioned male looking for female

          I scratch my head

          Wouldn't it be easier to stay as a male and seek a female partner?

          If anyone wants to fully transition to the opposite sex and seek partners that is fine

          Fully transitioning though is not what is required by the legislation we have that comes into force on 15/6.

          Then there are all the concerning stories about women's sport, about the staffing of rape crisis centres, counselling groups not being able/wanting to restrict their group participants to bio females, of prisons.

          On Twitter yesterday it was reported that a Maori Woman who had been raped/domestic violence was concerned that she would have to accept males in her safe spaces. Many woman, and esp those affected by male violence, can pick out a male at a 1000 paces and it does not matter that said male has a piece of paper saying they are now a female. She was lambasted by the 'caring' trans community.

          We truly are out of our collective minds not to turn our minds as to how we will help women.

          There are downsides and unintended consequences to most social justice legislation. The adult way is to accept these and mitigate them not shout down anyone who brings them up.

          • Phillip ure 22.1.1.2.1

            Unsure of the point you are trying to make with your gay-anecdote..

            Cd u plse clarify that…?

            And you are really leaning into the hypotheticals there..eh..?

            And just a quick factchech on your stated concerns re rape-crisis shelters..

            Rnz on breakfast show had a quote from a person running one of those services for hurt/damaged women..

            She said they had been accepting trans people for about ten years…and had never had any problems as you describe..

            Where does that leave your alarmist claims/what if?'s..?

            So much of all this seems to be catastrophising..

            • weka 22.1.1.2.1.1

              There's a phrase in GC circles about 'things that never happen'. TAs like yourself assert the things that women are concerned about never happen.

              Meanwhile,

              https://www.womenarehuman.com/male-transgender-boasts-of-harassing-women-in-crisis-shelter/

              Now you will say that it's only one example. There are more, but many TAs are wilfully blind.

              One of the women speaking at LWS in Canberra talked about the genre of porn where men masturbate in women's toilets. It's on pornhub. I don't know how long that's been a thing, but I do know I've seen enough examples in GC twitter of trans identified males masturbating or exposing themselves in women's spaces (toilets, changing rooms, Wi Spa, refuges) to know that it's a valid issue. Some of the males are predatory, some are exhibitionists, some are AGP (look that up if you are not already familiar, because it's central to the whole thing).

              My question to you is how many of those examples are enough for women to be allowed to raise the issue and talk about it, without being told we’re catastrophising or bigots/nazis? That’s not a rhetorical question, I’d like to know the number at which point you would take it seriously.

              • Shanreagh

                I have commented several times about finding males in womens changing rooms masturbating. The place I first came across it was in Sydney in 1979. Male came in dressed vaguely female with clothes in arms. Stripped down and began. We left. told the staff and were told it happens & if they look like women they have to let them in. Now I never go into large open changing rooms, only cubicles, so shops have lost my shopping $$$$.

                This was well before any of the trans stuff we are hearing now. At that stage i had come across two workmates who were male who dressed as female and used our female facilities with no problems. I had been in pub toilets where, depending on how they were dressed, trans people used either the male or female toilets. No problem as these people were male focussed.

                Today it seems very much more violent especially against bio females.

              • Shanreagh

                Weka, we are not allowed to think ahead and take steps to prevent/mitigate. I have worked that much out.

                We have to have the types of Isla Brysons and others causing damage I suspect. Though Corrections at the moment does segregate trans people, that is allowable under their current legislation/policy. Not sure if this has to change come 15/6/23.

                https://www.corrections.govt.nz/resources/policy_and_legislation/Prison-Operations-Manual/Induction/I.08-Shared-Accommodation-Cell-Risk-Assessment

                1. Trans people must be placed in a cell on their own and not double-bunked with another prisoner. This may be overridden by the prison director if two trans people with the same gender identity choose to be placed in a shared cell. The prison director must consider the suitability of the two trans people to be placed in the same cell using the Shared Accommodation Risk Assessment (SACRA).
              • Phillip ure

                @ weka..

                First things first..

                What is a TA…?

            • Shanreagh 22.1.1.2.1.2

              Thanks for not reading Philip URE, I knew I could depend on you,

              Rape Crisis comment was built on happenings in Canada re staffing and on the Brighton case.

              https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/help-sarahs-legal-challenge/

              The point was about places that have no right to chose totally bio females as counsellors, they had to choose male (trans) as well…this was by the Human Rights laws they had in Canada. It was not about Rape Crisis centres not allowing trans people in.

              If trans females want to go rape crisis centres that is fine & if trans people want to counsel at these places too that is fine. What is not fine is if by dogma or law bio females are not able to access help because a centre will not provide them with a bio female counsellor.

              These cases are readily available to read for those with a genuine interest, which you clearly have not.

              At least since the 1970s I have constantly and consistently followed the debates around women's rights and latterly Trans rights where they impinge on women's rights. You seem stuck in denialism and a tally ho its all jolly when chaps get their (female) gear on.

              Most of all you seem anti female? Am I right?

            • Shanreagh 22.1.1.2.1.3

              Please educate yourself and please read my post. I know it has some big words, dense prose and paragraphs that have more than one sentence …….

              There are downsides and unintended consequences to most social justice legislation. The adult way is to accept these and mitigate them not shout down anyone who brings them up.

              I ended with this plea above . Denialism is not an answer and goes nowhere to mitigate.

              How would you mitigate the possible harms to bio women?

            • Stuart Munro 22.1.1.2.1.4

              There are issues all over the place with the way the Trans issue is being pursued.

              You might consider the popular motto "Trans rights are human rights". While it is true to the point of being a tautology, like other tautologies it is semantically empty, the meaning it bears lies in confusing what human rights we have.

              Consider the propositions:

              Incel rights are human rights

              Murderers rights are human rights

              Homonid rights are human rights

              These tautologies are unlikely to expand the range of 'rights' available to the trans community.

              If the authors were being candid, the motto would read "Trans heteronymous desires are human rights", but that assertion is patently false.

              • Shanreagh

                I know the issues are all over the place.

                I am happy that trans people have rights, I always have been and always will be. The issues of trans rights and women's rights are not mutually exclusive.

                The issue for me is women's rights. No right given to another should infringe my rights as a woman.

                Speak up for Women said in part in their press release

                https://www.speakupforwomen.nz/post/media-release-march-21-2023

                "The protesters who gate-crashed the event in Melbourne have unfortunately been allowed to completely hijack the purpose of the event and sideline the women who spoke. These women speakers are mothers and grandmothers, aunties, daughters and sisters. They are non-violent and only wish to gather and voice their concerns, to speak about how their rights are being impacted with the introduction of gender identity in legislation, and to share their own experiences.

                We all have and deserve human rights and transgender people are no exception. However, accessing sex segregated or same-sex spaces and services, designated for people of the opposite sex, is not a human right.

                As women’s rights campaigners we are extremely concerned about this conflict of rights."

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