Should the sins of the father be visited upon the children?

Written By: - Date published: 8:30 am, August 13th, 2008 - 91 comments
Categories: benefits, national - Tags: ,

When the DPB was first proposed it had a very simple purpose, to allow mothers to leave abusive relationships, to allow them to protect their children from beatings, alcoholism and psychological abuse. It was intended to ensure that those children would have a real chance at a healthy and happy life. It did not, and could not, provide true equality to children raised in single parent households, but it could try. 
Since then the DPB has changed, it is not exclusively for the children of solo mums, or exclusively for the children of an abusive parent. It remains true, however, to its original goal: ensuring that children in single parent households have a real chance, that their disadvantage is minimised.

Children in households dependent on the DPB have three key sources of disadvantage: financial (the DPB is well below the average income of a household with children), parenting (two loving parents can provide more than one in many ways), and acceptance (many people will negatively judge a child of a home “on welfare”). The parents in these homes, by and large, try their level best to give their children the opportunities that most other kids have.
One of the options for children in two parent homes is a stay-at-home parent: a parent who focusses their energy on creating a supportive, stimulating, warm and loving home. Many families scrimp and save to achieve this, and many make other choices with both parents working to gain other advantages for their children. But two parent homes have that choice, their children of two parent homes have that option.
With a change in the DPB forcing the solo parent to work that option has been taken away from the children. One of the precious pieces of equality will be taken from some of our most vulnerable children.
The DPB, as it was first created and as it continues today, is decidedly New Testament where a child should not be punished for the sin of the parents. No child should be disadvantaged because one of their parents was violent, or left the other. No child should be disadvantaged by the breakdown of their parents’ relationship.
The changes proposed by National are decidedly Old Testament; the sins of the father will be visited upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Anita.

91 comments on “Should the sins of the father be visited upon the children? ”

  1. randal 1

    if the first paragraph is correct then what does it say about kiwi’s in general?

  2. infused 2

    Indeed… talk about fixing the problem at the wrong end.

    When my mother was on the DBP she had to work anyway, the money was not enough. I think it’s pathetic everyone’s crying foul over this.

  3. Matthew Pilott 3

    Of course you’re right infused, every mother is in the exact same situation. Let’s make policy based upon infused’s mother’s experience.

  4. Anita 4

    randal,

    I think it says a lot about NZ in the 1970s. Way back then very little was done about domestic violence, it was legal for a husband to rape his wife, few women worked and it was legal to discriminate against them in the workforce.

    A man could easily leave his wife and children – and she would have to take him to court to get any financial support for the children.

    Most women couldn’t financially afford to leave abusive relationships, and those would could often had to leave the children behind.

    The first Women’s Refuge was established in 1973 to address the immediate needs of women and children leaving abusive relationships.

    In 1974 the DPB was established to support their medium-long term survival.

    It does indeed say a lot about our society at the time that we tried to address this situation by supporting women leaving, rather than by dealing with domestic violence and rape.

  5. Disengaged 5

    How does a single parent either working or studying for 3 hours a day while the child is at school prevent that parent from providing a loving home for when the child returns?

  6. monkey-boy 6

    It is relevant that you have focussed on the worst behaviour of the small number of abusive men taht caused this laudable syteme to be established. But what of the freedom it provides for the worst behaviour of a small number of women who choose to rather have more children than face the prospect of getting back into the workplace. This can be achieved by variuous methods, but often is the result of a relationship that just didn’t owork out.
    Those examples raise their kids out of choice as single parents, but do not provide particualrly ‘nurturing’ environments as I might understand it.
    You might equally ask ‘Should the sins of the mother be visited upon their children’
    My first repsonse ot Key’s proposals on DPB was that it would simply lead to a ‘blip’ of new accidental pregnancys from those who definitely choose motherhood over otehr paid employment. However, it may be that a new system can be produced to provide better facilities and education for mothers wishing to return to work. You see beneficiary-bashing. I see alternative mind-set. You might not agree, but it is worthshile exploring it, all the same.

  7. Any parent who has self respect, would be jumping at the change to get back into the workforce, once their child has started school.

  8. Scribe 8

    I saw the title of this post and thought it might be about the evils of abortion.

    But no.

  9. Anita 9

    Disengaged,

    How does a single parent either working or studying for 3 hours a day while the child is at school prevent that parent from providing a loving home for when the child returns?

    There are three parts to the answer

    1) In households where one parent stays home while their children are in school that parent is usually really busy. Lots of fundamental household chores (cleaning, shopping, maintenance, cooking) so that they can focus on the kids once they come home. This is even more important in a single parent household as there’s no ability to share the chores between parents.

    Those parents are also often involved in the schools, helping with activities, supervising trips, and so on. All of huge benefit to their children, and something a child of a single parent household should expect and equal right to.

    I am somewhat disturbed by your implicit devaluing of the awesome value of the work of stay at home parents.

    2) You’re talking about the school term and perfectly healthy children. What do you expect to happen in the school holidays or when one of the children is sick?

    3) The policy is not 15 hours during school hours. It’s compelling 15 hours a week – if the only work available is supermarket checkout from 3-6 Mon-Fri, or 10-6:30 Saturday and Sunday what is supposed to happen to the children?

  10. Anita 10

    monkey-boy,

    I’ve never seen any evidence of women choosing to have more children so they can stay on the DPB but even if there was, this policy wouldn’t prevent it and it would disadvantage the children of other solo parents.

    I’m not arguing it’s beneficiary bashing (although that’s an easy argument to make), I’m arguing that it further disadvantages some of our most disadvantaged children.

  11. r0b 11

    Any parent who has self respect, would be jumping at the change to get back into the workforce, once their child has started school.

    If they anchor their concept of “self respect” in the need to work perhaps they would, but if they anchor their concept of “self respect” in the need to provide the best environment for their children, perhaps not.

    Read the third and fourth paragraphs of the post again. The proposal takes away choice and adds compulsion. How often do we hear the mantra that – “National is not a party of compulsion” – it’s a lie.

    Some DPB parents will choose to return to work as soon as possible, good for them. Some will delay it for their children, and perhaps go on to very productive careers later, good for them. Some perhaps will play the system to be lazy, but in my opinion the costs of trying to “fix” that small problem are too high, they break the system for everyone else.

    So once again, in short, National’s proposal takes away choice in a way that will punish some children. And for what, exactly?

  12. Greg 12

    Its not about punishing children. Its about ensuring tax payers money goes to people that deserve it. You seem to be saying that the policy would be fine – except for the possibility of a negative effect upon children (quite a valid notion). But yet again this is a case of the ‘abulance at the bottom of the cliff’ scenario, which seems to have become typical of left wing politics. You don’t look to fix the root of the problem, but the symptoms of it.

    Any parent that makes their children worse off if they have to work 15 hours a week is a bad parent. Giving them tax payers money does not change that. I’m not saying it would be easy, but why should single parents who work full time have to watch the counterparts, sitting on the benefit? To fix this problem we need to fix the problem of bad parents – not just put them on the DPB.

  13. monkey-boy 13

    I’ve never seen any evidence of women choosing to have more children so they can stay on the DPB but even if there was, this policy wouldn’t prevent it and it would disadvantage the children of other solo parents.

    Well I have, Anita, and thank you for agreeing with me about this process not preventing it. Where I differe perhaps is that I have worked in the UK under similar schemes (brought in by Labour UK) and as an adult educator, I found it realistically increased options for training in preparation for work.
    We are not barbarians, in NZ, abd there are no ‘barbarians at the gate’ waiting to take us back to some mythical hell-on-earth that must have existed before Labour got into power.
    The idea of promoting work to DPB mums can only work if it is enacted witihn the cultural mores of this society. I suggest it is a workable proposal, and instead of jumping up and down about the evils of the idea, ‘the left’ should be looking for ways to facilitate what could be a great opportunity to assist those who want, to advance themselves.
    Still no creches available? What a great premise upon which to promote them!
    Fell thorugh the cracks educationally?
    Great opposrtunity to advance qdult ed/literacy!
    legislation needed to protect part-timers?
    Well now it can be promoted under their system!
    You may not have staed ‘beneficiary bashing’ Anita, but with language like
    ” … DPB was first proposed it had a very simple purpose, to allow mothers to leave abusive relationships, to allow them to protect their children from beatings, alcoholism and psychological abuse.”
    I have to suggest it was you taht brought up the imagery first…

  14. Tim 14

    I disagree with National’s policy and I get tired of the vitriol hurled at “solo parents”, as if they are inferior to “dual parents”. I think there is something inherently sexist in that viewpoint too.

    The policy is aimed at solo parents. I am guessing most solo parents are women. Frequently women are solo parents because the father of the child will not support the child. Does National say anything about the fathers? No.

    All these ‘work for the dole’ schemes are designed to do is to create more competition for jobs, which drives down wages. The work available for many women is low paid and insecure. So now women will be forced to compete for poverty wage jobs.

    I would much rather be raised by a solo parent than a nuclear family of rednecks, Family First members or Christine Rankin worshippers. There will always be people who are shit parents, whether they’re on the DPB or not, but that isn’t a reason for discriminating against people on the DPB and shafting them and their children.

  15. nommopilot 15

    ” Any parent who has self respect, would be jumping at the change to get back into the workforce, once their child has started school.”

    besides which, there’s nothing in the current system to prevent a mother returning to work when her children reach school. Judith Collins has been very careful to try and say national are ‘encouraging’ mother’s to work but in fact their proposal includes no incentives, only compulsion.

    “However, it may be that a new system can be produced to provide better facilities and education for mothers wishing to return to work.”

    it may be, but it is difficult to see how national can achieve this without spending more money and employing a whole lot more bureaucrats.

  16. Anita 16

    monkey-boy,

    I totally agree we should be supporting solo parents who want to getting meaningful jobs. I totally agree about adult education, protection for part-time workers and so on.

    We could do all those things without forcing solo parents to work. We could set it up so those who want to can, and those who want to stay home to look after their children can do that, just as their equivalents in two parent households can.

    That would be an equitable solution, and probably a healthier and more effective one too.

  17. r0b 17

    Any parent that makes their children worse off if they have to work 15 hours a week is a bad parent.

    My nomination for the most arrogant and asinine statement on any NZ blog this week.

  18. Bill 18

    Since bringing up children is often a 24/7, on call, line of work, shouldn’t single parents get paid a wage? Comparative to market rates for jobs with similar conditions?

    Or does our society value a fast serving of McD’s more than it does the raising of children?

    Hmm. Far be it for me to suggest that the profit motive has determined that the work behind a burger is elevated above the work behind child rearing in our value system.

    Strange world. I’d have thought nothing could compare in terms of meaning to raising a child. I’m wrong?

    BTW. Divorce is not predicated on abuse. With no independent means available, many mothers were consigned to live their lives in loveless relationships. The DPB allowed for divorce to be an option. Full stop.

  19. Quoth the Raven 19

    How does a single parent either working or studying for 3 hours a day while the child is at school prevent that parent from providing a loving home for when the child returns?

    How many jobs are out there where you can work 3 hours a day during school hours?

  20. monkey-boy 20

    “We could do all those things without forcing solo parents to work. We could set it up so those who want to can, and those who want to stay home to look after their children can do that, just as their equivalents in two parent households can.”

    Now we get to the nub off the matter. It is no doubt a populist appeal that Key has used. But we have to explore what has made this such fertile ground for him to be able to do so.

    How do you envisage the ‘forcing’ to be enacted? Do you honestly think anyone is going to starve them and their children into submission?
    A platform of incentives and some kind of framework under which better accountability is seen as necessary by Key and co.
    The whole point of the election is after all to debate it. But if (and here’s the big one) the ‘majority agree, it is then a matter of working out the best way forward.

  21. Anita 21

    Greg,

    why should single parents who work full time have to watch the counterparts, sitting on the benefit?

    Why should I, working a long well paid week day have to watch people who earn minimum watch stocking supermarket shelves at night swan about in the afternoon sun?

    If a single parent who is working full time believes their children would be better off if they became a full time caregiver living on the smell of an oily rag they can go on the DPB. That is the point of the DPB, it gives single parents the chance to provide that level of care for children. It gives our most vulnerable children the chance of full time parental support if it’s right for them – which, IMHO, is a right not a luxury.

  22. relic 22

    Some of you want the state kept out of your lives but are quite happy for state intervention in other peoples. “Others’ inevitably less powerful and more vulnerable than your moralistic selves.

    Remember National’s “Dob in a dole bludger’ 90s TV ads, where curtain twitching informants were encouraged in every street? The Nats were not quite so keen on informants when it happened to them at a recent happy hour it seems.

    Let single parents get on with their lives for goodness sake.

  23. burt 23

    Anita

    No child should be disadvantaged by the breakdown of their parents’ relationship.

    It takes a village to raise a child. Giving solo parents sufficient resources to allow them to go it alone removes the incentive for finding alternate good role models and community/extended family support. Children raised in isolation, all be it with welfare assistance, are not necessarily better off.

    I was raised in a solo parent family, abuse father (who is dead now so I can talk freely about his ways) and I agree that without the DPB life would have been harder. But even in the 60’s & 70’s my mother worked 2-3 jobs and we struggled. Back then extended family ties were stronger because welfare was not so generous. Is allowing solo parents to stand more on their own two feet by providing more welfare a good or a bad thing for children?

  24. Disengaged 24

    Anita I am in no way devaluing the contribution that parents make. I am also aware of the challenges that single parents face as I was raised by one. However, I don’t see how encouraging people to study, or work, for three hours a day is going to be as disruptive as it is being painted. How do currently working single parents cope with a sick child or school holidays? They work around them or take time off. Job-sharing and family friendly work practices are also making thata lot easier to acheive.

    However, if working is simply not an option due to their circumstances what is to stop them from doing an Open Polytechnic course, or other distance learning study, for 15 hours a week? Their study can be fitted in around what time they have available and they can learn new skills which will help them find better employment when the time comes. Plus the child gets to see that studying and improving your self is rewarding.

    Granted it is not going to work in every case as in some circumstances the child is going to need more intensive monitoring, but that is why the MSD staff have discretion.

  25. Disengaged 25

    QTR: “How many jobs are out there where you can work 3 hours a day during school hours?”

    Relief receptionist, retail support, cleaning and office support to name a few.

  26. Matthew Pilott 26

    Al lot of comments seem to be saying that it is good for a parent to work if they can, so as not to rely on the state, contribute to the workforce, stand independently, and so on.

    It’s also mentioned that there are circumstances where this is not possible, or would be detrimental to the child.

    As it stands, a parent is able to work, if their circumstances allow it. WINZ do help people get into work, so there’s no problem there.

    What I see this being about, the crux of the issue, is whether there should be a compulsion, as National proposes. There would be two outcomes.

    One: some solo parents go into work when perhaps they would not have done so without compulsion (the free-riders).

    Two: some solo parents will go into work when they definitely would not have, because they genuinely can’t do so without it being to their child’s detriment.

    Irrespective of National’s plans, those parents who wish to work when they can, would do so, as they do at present.

    So: does the benefit from ‘one’ outweight the loss from ‘two’?

    I suggest no, it’s not worth it. Do others out there disagree, or think that those two outcomes aren’t a good explanation of the outcomes?

  27. Bill 27

    Given the amount of beneficiary bashing that has gone on under Labour; means testing for benefits (work diaries are still used in some offices); excluding the unemployed from wff; their intention to bring in ‘core benefits’; the removal of special benefit; an expectation imposed on DPB that they seek employment when their children reach a given age….I’m surprised there is much room left to manoeuvre for National.

    Wasn’t that a nice wee shot of Helen cutting the ribbon at ‘the home of the welfare state’? Anyone would think she thought the welfare system was an honourable institution to have in a civilised society.

    Unfortunately, Labour’s actions have displayed a mentality at odds with the above photo op.

  28. burt 28

    What do grandparents on GRI buy their grandkids for xmas when WFF has already given them iPods and cellphones worth hundreds of dollars.

  29. Matthew Pilott 29

    Sweaters and socks, mostly.

  30. burt 30

    Mathew

    Makes it hard for grandparents to stay relavent in childrens lives (which is very important as they often have such wisdom and insight) when they can’t compete on a ‘consumer’ level because of generous welfare.

    Pay WFF to the grandparents – let them spend it on the best interets of the children – Tertiary education funding etc. This would stop the disentigration of the extended family that generous welfare causes.

    BTW: How were the Tararuas ? I wend to Ruapehu instead and wow – talk about stunning weather.

  31. Ben R 31

    “It was intended to ensure that those children would have a real chance at a healthy and happy life.”

    The trouble is where the person has poor parenting skills, gambling issues or drug and alcohol issues.

    Rather than giving cash, shouldn’t vouchers be provided for essential items such as food and baby care items?

  32. Matthew Pilott 32

    I think things will get interesting if the govt tried to give authority to grandparents over parents…!

    They were great – didn’t get much above 1100m, and there was a whole lot of snow. Coldest night I’ve had in a while. Turns out it might not have been the best weekend to be there (or the best, depending on what you’re after)… Central plateau must be well covered as well.

  33. r0b 33

    Makes it hard for grandparents to stay relavent in childrens lives (which is very important as they often have such wisdom and insight) when they can’t compete on a ‘consumer’ level because of generous welfare.

    What a strange, strange world you live in Burt.

  34. Peter 34

    Okay, let’s get real here:

    There are few or no jobs that allow you to work 3 hours a day, five days a week during school hours. I’m sorry, but that’s just a fact. And even if there were, if you look at travel cost and time it’s not worth it for $36 less tax (thank god at least for the rise in minimum eage or it would be even worse).

    Combine this system with the fabulous ‘3 months and you’re fired if you try to stick up for your rights/refuse to do overtime/refuse to come in on short notice/just ’cause we feel like it’ policy then it’s plain there’ll be one group that will suffer on this policy – the children. WTF do you think will beresults of unsupervised children in low income neighbourhoods with no parental guidance??? Oh well, I guess we can just contract out another company to build another prison (at least sometone gains from it all).

    Oh, but its not about the children is it? It’s about creating a cheap labour market and trying to look ‘tough on lazy scumbags’.

    So I guess if that’s the goal, the policy succeeds.

    What’s really odd is the never ending stream of embittered asses which are willing to jump through hoops and perform logical backflips to justify this as somehow positive for these people.

    I honestly don’t understand their motivation. Except I guess general bitterness and scape goating.

  35. r0b 35

    Peter has written what I would have liked to write, had I but more time today! Welcome aboard Hobbes Peter.

  36. burt 36

    rOb

    What a strange, strange world you live in Burt.

    No rOb, not strange just not locked into a “status quo good’ mentality like some Labour apologist muppets.

  37. Greg 37

    r0b – Maybe I can make my point in a different manner. A solo mother on the benefit is hardly the ideal situation for any child. The only way to change this, to increase the family income and therefore lift that childs prospects if for that mother to get a job (and hopefully a career). National is providing incentives (quite strong too) for this to happen.

  38. randal 38

    any mother who is alone with a dependent child obviously needs as much support as they can get. low grade threats from national about making people work when patently there is no work is typical rightwing whinge politics to make some sections of the middle class justified in their righteous wrath and anger…pooh pooh pooh. I must say I feel justified in using faux teen slang and say get a life and let other people get on with theirs. society provides plenty of incentives and peer group pressures without tory stickybeaks getting involved.

  39. r0b 39

    Burt: No rOb, not strange just not locked into a “status quo good’ mentality like some Labour apologist muppets.

    I’ve missed you too buddy!

    Greg: Maybe I can make my point in a different manner.

    You mean without stigmatising those that can’t achieve the impossible as “bad parents”? I think that would be an excellent idea.

    A solo mother on the benefit is hardly the ideal situation for any child.

    In terms of family income it may not be ideal. In terms of family structure (e.g. escaping an abusive partner) it may be by far the best option.

    The only way to change this, to increase the family income and therefore lift that childs prospects if for that mother to get a job (and hopefully a career).

    Nope, you’ve missed another way, a way that would raise the family income and let the mother/parent be a full time care giver. I wonder if you can work out what that other way is Greg?

  40. higherstandard 40

    Are you advocating income splitting for couples rOb

  41. r0b 41

    Are you advocating income splitting for couples rOb

    You might want to read the thread HS.

  42. higherstandard 42

    So how do you propose raising the family income and letting the mother/parent be a full time care giver.

    Is it the throw more money at welfare theory which has worked so well over the last thirty years or are you advocating something different?

  43. r0b 43

    Is it the throw more money at welfare theory which has worked so well over the last thirty years

    Yup, that one! Bravo HS, gold star for you. If the issue is increasing family incomes for the DPB well let’s increase the benefit rate. And work well it has too, who knows how many children raised with a decent chance at life, and over the last 9 years with benefit rates declining naturally.

    The only reason to force people into work (that will almost certainly damage their solo caregiving role) is some kind of punitive puritan moralistic nanny statism. If that’s your kick well fine good for you, but don’t try and window dress it as raising incomes. Be brave enough to call a spade a spade.

  44. higherstandard 44

    I thought the Nats were advocating the linking of the benefit to inflation ?

  45. r0b 45

    I don’t know, perhaps they are. If so good for them, but I’d like to see the base level raised as well. I think Labour has been far too timid in this area.

  46. yl 46

    I agree with the comment about the National Party being a party of choice.. this policy takes away choice.

    This policy is not about making bene’s give back for what they are receiving from the government. It is about a mother having to work 15 hours a week because she should be able to handle this because the children are at school. That is a load of bs… where are all of the employers lining up to higher mothers from 9-3, they do not exist, particularly for families in the country.

    By this same logic, a two parent family with a stay home mother, she should be out doing her 15 hours as well.

    We shouldnt be punishing our peers in society for falling on hard times. I reject this idea of someone going out of their way to have babies just to stay on a DPB. some provide some proof to prove me wrong please…

  47. higherstandard 47

    Once all the electioneering is out of the way I’d like all parties to get together on the best way to move forward with welfare.

    I think everyone supports (apart from nutters) welfare for those in need but I’m mindful of the comments of Pita Sharples and the like who think that welfare has had a negative effect on Maori overall.

    Personally I think there must be some way to balance giving those in genuine need more and helping people out of and away from welfare.

    Sadly I think there will be little change with either National or Labour in control of this area.

  48. r0b 48

    A comment I can agree with almost completely HS.

    With one minor point – “I think there will be little change with either National or Labour in control of this area” – as long as National keeps dog whistling red neck beneficiary bashing and making it politically difficult to move on the issue. If there was bipartisan agreement I hope and expect there would be quick progress on this.

  49. Anita 49

    burt,

    Makes it hard for grandparents to stay relavent in childrens lives (which is very important as they often have such wisdom and insight) when they can’t compete on a ‘consumer’ level because of generous welfare.

    Pay WFF to the grandparents

    I think that here, and earlier in the comments, you’re advocating reducing assistance to families to increase child poverty to make it easier for grandparents to buy love.

    I am pretty weirded out!

  50. Ben R 50

    “as long as National keeps dog whistling red neck beneficiary bashing and making it politically difficult to move on the issue.”

    Isn’t another point that some people seem to react with outrage and calls of ‘beneficiary bashing’ whenever this issue gets raised?

  51. burt 51

    Anita

    No that is not what I’m saying at all. Did you notice the comment about Tertiary education funds????

    The issue is the wise use of tax payers money in the best interest of the children. Not the day to day purchase of consumer goods as advocated by WFF advertising. Welfare should be about maintaining a minimum living standard – not providing an alternative to work. I appreciate work can be inconvienant for solo parents.

    I know all about child poverty and solo parenting hardship. I agree with the principles of the DPB. But the principles and the application and the way it’s used as a political poll device is shocking and wrong.

    Somebody mentioned earlier that we need to be sure the money gets to where it is needed, sometimes the parents are not the best people to decide that. Particularly if they do not always have the best interests of their children ahead of their own day to day desires such as alcohol, gambling or big screen TV’s.

  52. Anita 52

    hs,

    So how do you propose raising the family income and letting the mother/parent be a full time care giver.

    Well I would advocate valuing caring for dependant children (and other family members) and paying a real wage for it. This doesn’t just mean stay at home parents, it also means grandparents caring for grandchildren, people looking after disabled siblings, and children looking after elderly dependant parents – the whole works. So we value it, we recognise it as a vital activity, we pay for it.

    But that’s probably too radical for many people 🙂

    A far less radical solution is to provide significant tax relief to families (WFF anyone?), and raise the DPB to a level which is at least equivalent to that of a low wage one earner household. Plus ensure that the DPB is a right for all sole non-earning caregivers (grandparents looking after grandchildren and so on too).

    On top of that we should make sure that when the right solution for the family is for the parents to work that there is family friendly work for them. The choices to work full-time, or part-time, or not at all should be equally valued as they are all valid choices for a family raising children.

  53. Anita 53

    burt,

    You want to withhold WFF from families with immediate financial needs and give it to the grandparents. The grandparents might then hang on to it for later (e.g. tertiary education) or give use it immediately.

    But either way you don’t want the WFF money used for cellphones and things like that because that makes it harder for grandparents to stay relevant because they can’t compete when buying christmas presents.

    That really (really!) seems to be what you said.

  54. burt 54

    Anita

    Call it compete if you want to cast it that way, I think it’s more a mater of be involved, contribute and be active in the role of the extended family. I can see how you might want to read what I said that way – ignoring my comment that it was not what I was saying.

    Kids don’t place a lot of value on the time grandparents contribute to the family and on GRI grandparents have precious little else to give. Meanwhile parents get welfare to provide a lifestyle that is not essential, rather it’s feel good stuff.

    iPods are not an essential part of growing up, neither are big screen TV’s. Grandparents with sufficient funds to afford travel/incidental costs associated with spending time with grand kids is a lot more important that throwing cash at families so they vote for XYZ political party.

    It always stuns me how many beneficiaries can afford a big screen TV but can’t afford to pay for activities such as kids swimming lessons, bikes and stuff that is good for them rather than stuff that helps them fell that they are keeping up with their mates.

    Peoples expectations for lifestyle are loosly based on how they percieve others. If my neighbour has a big screen TV and Sky then why don’t I… The answer might be as simple as your neighbour works and you don’t – but that answer is pretty unpopular so in the interests of good polling we talk up welfare spending. Sad how easily people are bough by instant gratification.

    Oh, I’m not a grandparent either.

  55. burt 55

    Anita

    This doesn’t just mean stay at home parents, it also means grandparents caring for grandchildren, people looking after disabled siblings, and children looking after elderly dependant parents – the whole works. So we value it, we recognise it as a vital activity, we pay for it.

    But that’s probably too radical for many people

    That is more along the lines I was heading with pay WFF to grandparents – IE: Here is some money spend it on your grandchildren. The result being that grandparents are involved in the raising of the children and are funded to do so. Back to the idea I started with that it takes a village to raise a child.

  56. Anita 56

    burt,

    Call it compete if you want to cast it that way

    You said compete, I think that’s the point at which my jaw dropped and I thought you’d fallen off the rails 🙂

    Kids don’t place a lot of value on the time grandparents contribute to the family and on GRI grandparents have precious little else to give.

    That’s not true in all families or of all kids (I say defensively 🙂 )

    I reckon that the solution to it, where it does exist, is not to decreased the family income, or increase the size of the bribes that grandparents can afford. It’s to address the breakdown of the extended family, address the lack of value our society places on the elderly, and try to unravel some of the damage done to children by a consumerist society which values stuff before people.

  57. Rob 57

    I believe this is correct and if you sin and lie and try to deceive you will surely be caught out.

    In today’s paper Ruth Dyson claims she knows nothing about her Social Engineering speech, or where it came from. But on Monday her office said she rejected the speech and refused to deliver it.

    Both cannot be true.

    Either she knew nothing about it, or she rejected it. What will tomorrow’s “clarification’ have us believe?

    [lprent links? Don’t be so damn lazy!]

  58. Anita 58

    Rob,

    In today’s paper Ruth Dyson claims she knows nothing about her Social Engineering speech

    Reference?

  59. Ruth’s problem with the bottle is evident if you meet with her in her electorate office first thing on a Saturday morning.Ruth was such a laugh when she lived with all the other stamp lickers in Millerton on the West Coast.Ouch !!

    Feminists have destroyed the family unit and are responsible for the breakdown of the traditional family with their insidious social engineering policy.

  60. Rob 60

    Anita

    Dyson said yesterday that she did not deliver the speech and had “no idea” what the term “triples” referred to.
    Anita

    Just for you
    The speech should never have been posted on the Government’s website, she said.

    “It’s entirely my responsibility what goes out under my name, so it’s my fault that I didn’t know that a speech that I hadn’t given had been put on the website,” Dyson said.

    “I get speeches a lot that I don’t give. I don’t want to be too critical of people who draft my speeches, but I get a lot of speeches, in draft, that I never use. They have no relationship with what I say.”

    She “didn’t have a clue” what the speech notes meant nor what they were referring to.

    “I haven’t bothered asking because I’m not interested in it,” she said.

    Everyone went yeaa right we beileve you Ruth!!

    [lprent: Put a link in as well. Quotes (even if accurate) are often meaningless when partially quoted. The best way is to have the link to as close to the source as possible.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/4651706a6479.html
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/4653465a11.html
    That took 3 minutes to do. Personally I find people that don’t post links are usually trying to hide something, if only the minuscule skills. ]

  61. Ruth hasn’t a clue about parenting. She thinks a triple three shots of vodka and a song and dance will make all her past go away.

    Just look at CYFS who are nothing more than hard core feminists destroying children at random.Oh, by the way Ruth young Jadin tried to commit suicide last night !!!Remember him? I asked you to assist him months ago.

    [lprent: I seem to remember that she was a solo mother – sounds like parenting to me. ]

  62. Anita 62

    Rob,

    Yep, that’s what I’d read, which means your comment is completely wrong.

    She didn’t say she knew nothing about the speech; she said didn’t know what was meant by “triples” or about who wrote it.

    So it is entirely consistent that she rejected it.

    Why are you so consistently wildly inaccurate?

  63. Anita 63

    burt,

    That is more along the lines I was heading with pay WFF to grandparents – IE: Here is some money spend it on your grandchildren. The result being that grandparents are involved in the raising of the children and are funded to do so.

    Do you think we should just generally raise the GRI rate? Most elderly people, whether they’re directly grandparents or not, are involved in the raising of younger people. If the current rate prevents them participating in this important activity it sounds sensible to raise the rate.

    We should also, separately, provide reasonable assistance to grandparents who take on the primary care of their grandkids. The UCB really isn’t flexible enough right now.

  64. Tane 64

    Coming to this discussion late I can only reiterate what Bill said – raising a child is work. It requires labour, it fulfils a social function.

    That many seem to think work is only those things that people who own factories are willing to pay for doesn’t make it any less true.

    Ps. Matt – that sweaters and socks comment was the best I’ve seen in a while.

  65. burt 65

    Anita

    Firstly, I checked back and I did say ‘compete’ in the context of ‘consumer’. That word was badly chosen and the phrase was sloppy. It was a poorly worded way to make a point. I’ll try again.

    In my situation. If I send my children to my mothers place for a few days they are too expensive for her to ‘maintain’. They eat sh1t loads and they want to do stuff that costs money. My solution to that (as is the solution to my mother not having much money come birthdays and xmas) is to provide the cash required in these situations. I can do that and that’s cool. Grandmother gets to do what she wants to do without having the power disconnected, kids are (mostly) enriched by her influence and experience. Great.

    Low income families cannot afford to do that. So what happens is the role of the grandparents diminishes, particularly when they do not live in the immediate neighbourhood. This is what I was referring to with the word ‘relevant’. The kids want to stay home and watch the big screen TV rather than go to grand parents place and watch the 21″ 18 year old TV with no play station and only 4 channels. This is consumerism and where the concept of ‘compete’ was coming from.

    You cover this with.

    address the lack of value our society places on the elderly, and try to unravel some of the damage done to children by a consumerist society which values stuff before people.

    Do I think we should lift the GRI. Most definitely. People on GRI today were sold the ‘cradle to the grave’ deal that paying higher taxes now for current spending will be rewarded by them being supported to a reasonable standard in retirement. They are not, they are at best ‘getting by’. People who have accumulated assets over their life time have them to fall back on, to liquidate rather than pass on to their family when they die. This is not how it should be given the successive Labour govt’s that sold the cradle to the grave concept and given we have had a Labour govt for almost 9 years.

  66. r0b 66

    Firstly, I checked back and I did say ‘compete’ in the context of ‘consumer’. That word was badly chosen and the phrase was sloppy. It was a poorly worded way to make a point. I’ll try again.

    I flagged exactly the same concern as Anita (albeit much more briefly) in my comment of 1:35pm.

    You might want to actually think about such replies to your comments Burt, instead of reflexively writing them off (as you did on this occasion, Mr Grumpy Pants) as the rantings of Labour muppets.

  67. r0b 67

    Hmmm – tonight I’ve had two comments that contain no links at all that have been caught in moderation. I don’t think my IP address has been being naughty either. The moderation tools seem to be in overdrive!

    Anyway, time to head home (just another lazy socialist!) and get some dinner.

  68. burt 68

    Tane

    raising a child is work. It requires labour, it fulfils a social function.

    That is true. But who’s responsibility is it to fund that work? Who said the state should be the funder in this situation. The state should be the last resort unless we have totally adopted an approach where the best interests of the children are placed in the hands of the state, with the parents (or state nominated guardians) being the current service providers.

    I don’t see how we can expect any other outcome than rampant welfare abuse if the state acknowledges the effort of parenting as financially rewardable labour.

  69. burt 69

    rOb

    If you have used the word ‘ m – u – p – p – e – t’ that seems to get captured by the moderation trap.

  70. r0b 70

    Hey – good guess Burt! Thanks. Here is the moderated post, and I really am off now:

    Firstly, I checked back and I did say ‘compete’ in the context of ‘consumer’. That word was badly chosen and the phrase was sloppy. It was a poorly worded way to make a point. I’ll try again.

    I flagged exactly the same concern as Anita (albeit much more briefly) in my comment of 1:35pm.

    You might want to actually think about such replies to your comments Burt, instead of reflexively writing them off (as you did on this occasion, Mr Grumpy Pants) as the rantings of Labour m*u*ppets.

  71. burt 71

    rOb

    Anita made her own points to justify her reaction to what I wrote. You might have noticed as a result of that there was dialogue and I think both of us have made some interesting points.

    You didn’t do that, or even clarify what you were meaning by strange. However all that aside, I’ll think about it next time and also leave that offensive ‘M’ word out. The comment you refer to had that word and was also moderated.

  72. r0b 72

    You didn’t do that, or even clarify what you were meaning by strange.

    Sorry B, I was and am a bit short of time today, I shouldn’t have been commenting at all let alone writing epics!

  73. Anita 73

    burt,

    But who’s responsibility is it to fund that work? Who said the state should be the funder in this situation.

    In a society with relative equality of income distribution then leaving the funding up to the family would be mostly equitable.

    But in our society, with its wide division between haves and have nots, if we leave the financial obligation with the family then there is massive inequity – some children start off with a pretty huge disadvantage.

    So yes, I’m not entirely comfortable with entangling the state in the purses of our families, but it seems fairer than setting up some children to fail.

    To come back, for a moment, to the quote from Exodus I used in my post: is it fair that the disadvantage of poverty of a father should be inflicted on his children, grandchildren and great grandchildren?

  74. Anita, the Israelities in Exodus, with their strong solidarity, knew that good and evil affected whole families, not just individuals.

  75. burt 75

    Anita

    Is it fair – that’s an interesting question.

    Looking around us, the low level of GRI that is paid is making elderly people sell their assets (reverse mortgages etc) so wealth is not accumulated over generations. So current govt policies are saying that it’s OK and the way it should be.

    Are you asking in the wider sense? – because in a completely broad all encompassing context NO, It’s not fair. It’s also not a certainty that it will happen. There are many examples of people who have made significant economic progress in either direction. Starting from poverty and ending with wealth and vise a versa. So I don’t quiet see how DPB can be presented as one of the significant mitigations to stop poverty being perpetuated. I think there is an equally valid position that welfare creates an economic outpatient mentality where there is a livable safety net so why strive for more. But your position and the contra position are hopelessly generalised and pretty much just partisan talking points.

    The real issue is how people spend their money, what priorities they have, what values they have and how those priorities and values are supported or diminished by whatever mechanism we actually use.

  76. burt 76

    Anita

    So yes, I’m not entirely comfortable with entangling the state in the purses of our families, but it seems fairer than setting up some children to fail.

    Setting children up to fail – I don’t get that bit.

    Parents that don’t want the best for their children are few and far between. These people put their own interest before the children to the extent that that can murder their own. I don’t understand these people so I’ll exclude them in the context of what I’m saying. Poor parents don’t fail their children, a system that allows the same mistakes to be perpetuated fails the children. Student loans have possibly done more to break the low income poverty cycle than any other policy. Interest free loans (excluding the logical consequence of people borrowing to invest) is also possibly a big mitigation of the poverty trap.

    Entangling the state in the purses of families can only increase the likelihood of failure. Convenience of administration always diminishes flexibility. We simply cannot have a welfare value inspector checking every spending decision unless we provide some high tech voucher/card system with extensive audits. The only option we have is to carry the dead weight of welfare abuse. People will always work the system so targeted or means tested benefits provide a quagmire of bureaucracy and wastage, as we see today. Everybody gets less so that some people can profit from dishonesty.

    However I would support a universal allowance paid to every NZ citisen over the high school leaving age. With a universal child allowance paid to parents while children are under school leaving age. If everybody gets it then it’s not a political point scoring device come election time.

    Now what add ons would you sell me?

  77. Savage 77

    dad4justice
    August 13, 2008 at 8:21 pm

    “Anita, the Israelities in Exodus, with their strong solidarity, knew that good and evil affected whole families, not just individuals.”

    Whoa dude.

    Not that I have many prejudices but… I consider anyone who states that they are ‘pro-family’ is actually saying they are anti-gay, pro-life, gun-collecting, bible-bashing, ultra right, rabid and logic-free individuals.

    On the same note I really despise Christine Rankin. Sorry to go off topic but she sure is one power dressing haircut with an opinion and over-sized earrings to boot.

  78. Savage nutbar – book yourself in for a standard lobotomy.

    [lprent: Please restrain yourself – too many grumpy people around this morning. ]

  79. higherstandard 79

    Savage

    Whoa dude I don’t have many prejudices but I consider anyone who thinks that being pro-family is actually saying that they are anti-gay, pro-life, gun-collecting, bible-bashing, ultra right, rabid and logic-free – Is actually an anti-heterosexual, pro-abortion, religion hating, ultra left, tree hugging nutbar.

    Oh and apparently you are a misogynist to boot …

  80. “Ruth hasn’t a clue about parenting?” – dad4justice

    Am I not the only one who takes issue with that comment?

    [lprent: I was a bit flummoxed when I saw it. Ruth was a solo mother from what I remember. You usually have to be a parent and do parenting to raise kids?]

  81. Rob 81

    Anita

    You must be on magic Mushrooms or seriously politically deluded if you think a speech writer for Ruth Dyson would write that speech without knowing the current direction in which she wants to take her Social Engineering plans.

    Why is it you are prepared to accept barefaced lies from Helen & Heather Simpson if National did something like this and pulled it off their website within 2 hours of being questioned about it you would be all over it.

    The shame is they are fooling no one everyone can see through it for the lie that it is. Just look around some other blogs and listen to the Radio it has damaged Labour people dont like their Social Engineering and legalising their perversions for their mates

    [lprent: Anita has been asking you to provide references – ie links. Quotes (even if accurate) are often meaningless when partially quoted. The best way is to have the link to as close to the source as possible. The press releases like the ones you have been quoting from are almost always up in seek.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/4651706a6479.html
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/4653465a11.html
    That took 3 minutes to do.

    Personally I find people that don’t post links are usually trying to hide something, if only the minuscule skills. You could and should have done that many comments ago.

    I read both press releases and they are reasonably clear. They do not support your opinion. Speech writers do not make policy and often seem to only vaguely to be aware of it. If Dyson had actually said it, then it might have been interesting.

    Don’t insult other people as you did above just because you cannot support your own argument. ]

  82. cha 82

    And the Tories stay true to form with this policy

  83. Felix 83

    hs:

    There is a subtle but crucial difference between what Savage wrote (“anyone who states that they are ‘pro-family’ “) and what you responded to (“being pro-family”).

    I think Savage was referring to ProFamily™ which is a phrase that is often used to disguise the type of hatred and bigotry described.

    A bit like HardworkingKiwi™ or MainstreamNZ™ – they’re largely meaningless terms which could, if used literally, be applied to almost anyone. However they’re almost never actually used literally. They are used to exclude a secondary group from the definition, not to describe the primary group.

  84. Anita 84

    Rob,

    You must be on magic Mushrooms or seriously politically deluded if you think a speech writer for Ruth Dyson would write that speech without knowing the current direction in which she wants to take her Social Engineering plans.

    Firstly, as someone who has worked in the public Service, I am absolutely sure it is possible for a public servant to write a speech without knowing what the Minister thinks.

    Secondly, the point I made was that your comment was inaccurate (again). I made no comment on Dyson or the speech.

    Thirdly, the insult is unnecessary IMHO – I play a pretty clean game here, it would be polite to do the same in return.

    Finally, if I were to respond to your second paragraph it would be to ask for references (again) it looks grossly inaccurate (again).

  85. Anita 85

    burt,

    Awesome comments which deserve a proper reply when I get home this evening!

  86. Anita 86

    burt,

    Are you asking in the wider sense? – because in a completely broad all encompassing context NO, It’s not fair. It’s also not a certainty that it will happen. There are many examples of people who have made significant economic progress in either direction. Starting from poverty and ending with wealth and vise a versa. So I don’t quiet see how DPB can be presented as one of the significant mitigations to stop poverty being perpetuated.

    I reckon (based on no empirical evidence, any idea where I’d find some?) that children born of wealthy parents are more likely to end up wealthy than those born of middle-income parents. Similarly children of poor parents are more likely to end up poor than the children of middle-income parents.

    If that assumption is right then one can make a coherent argument that the DPB, by alleviating the poverty of single parent families (which is, on average, significantly worse than that of two parent families) significantly improves the chances of the children.

    Sadly the situation isn’t as simple as I just pretended 🙂 Intergenerational poverty is complicated by intergenerational poor educational achievement and illiteracy, poorer employment related networks, etc etc. So for many kinds of poverty addressing the other of the issues is just as important as addressing the financial stress.

    I think, however, that the DPB is probably a clearer case for financial support making a big difference all by itself. For a start many people on the DPB have relatively high educational achievements, they would have a relatively well paying job if they weren’t sole parenting. Secondly the direct financial disadvantage of a single parent household as compared to a two parent household should be directly addressed.

  87. Dear Anita, at least the velvet underground sisterhood has made us GOLD Medalist’s in child abuse and infanticide.

  88. r0b 88

    I reckon (based on no empirical evidence, any idea where I’d find some?) that children born of wealthy parents are more likely to end up wealthy than those born of middle-income parents.

    Anita, see this OECD data.

    There is a strong positive relation in a cross-section of twelve OECD countries between the extent of intergenerational earnings mobility and income inequality (Figure 3). In general, the countries with the most equal distribution of income at a given point in time exhibit the highest earnings mobility across generations.

    The extent to which income is transmitted varies across countries, although no society is perfectly mobile or immobile: for example, intergenerational earnings mobility is highest in the Nordic countries, Canada and Australia, while it is lowest in Italy, the United Kingdom and the United States.

    Although no consensus exists on this issue, there seems to be a relation between cross-section income inequality and intergenerational earnings mobility. To promote equality of opportunity might then require reducing current income inequality.

    Or try “Moving from rags to riches is harder in more unequal countries”, or this brief article in the Guardian, and see this depressing stuff on income inequality in NZ.

  89. Anita 89

    burt,

    re: setting up children to fail

    Poverty sets children up to fail in a variety of ways, for example:

    1) Poverty leads to poor quality housing leads to health problems leads to poor educational outcomes leads to poorly paid jobs leads to poverty.

    2) Poverty leads to poor quality food leads to poor nutrition leads to poor health problems and poor educational outcomes …

    3) Poverty leads to financial stress preventing full integration into society leads to limited social networks leads to disadvantaged work seeking and access to support services.

    4) Poverty leads to financial stress preventing travel leads to disintegration of extended family networks leads to loss of effective role models …

    and so on.

    I’d totally buy your universal allowance idea. I’d also want policies and legislation to make more flexible employment available, acknowledgement of and space for the wide variety of families and family responsibilities that actually exist in our societies (let’s talk about some amazingly involved cousins, honorary aunts and so on), and access to free relevant supportive education for everyone. That’s just for starters 🙂

  90. john 90

    Just a lot of wank,as can be expected from a blog that isn’t in any way in breach of the vile EFA,insert tui here.Why don’t they just sort out the shambles known as the CSA,(how many billions are owed now?),or at least act on the intentions of the Act and start regarding the children first instead of just reclaiming DPB payments

    [lprent: Bad graffiti artist. ]

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    Yesterday saw the State Opening of Parliament, the Speech from the Throne, and then Prime Minister Christopher Luxon’s dream for Aotearoa in his first address. But first the pomp and ceremony, the arrival of the Governor General.Dame Cindy Kiro arrived on the forecourt outside of parliament to a Māori welcome. ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    2 days ago
  • National’s new MP; the proud part-Maori boy raised in a state house
    Probably not since 1975 have we seen a government take office up against such a wall of protest and complaint. That was highlighted yesterday, the day that the new Parliament was sworn in, with news that King Tuheitia has called a national hui for late January to develop a ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    3 days ago
  • Climate Adam: Battlefield Earth – How War Fuels Climate Catastrophe
    This video includes conclusions of the creator climate scientist Dr. Adam Levy. It is presented to our readers as an informed perspective. Please see video description for references (if any). War, conflict and climate change are tearing apart lives across the world. But these aren't separate harms - they're intricately connected. ...
    3 days ago
  • They do not speak for us, and they do not speak for the future
    These dire woeful and intolerant people have been so determinedly going about their small and petulant business, it’s hard to keep up. At the end of the new government’s first woeful week, Audrey Young took the time to count off its various acts of denigration of Te Ao Māori:Review the ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    3 days ago
  • Another attack on te reo
    The new white supremacist government made attacking te reo a key part of its platform, promising to rename government agencies and force them to "communicate primarily in English" (which they already do). But today they've gone further, by trying to cut the pay of public servants who speak te reo: ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • For the record, the Beehive buzz can now be regarded as “official”
    Buzz from the Beehive The biggest buzz we bring you from the Beehive today is that the government’s official website is up and going after being out of action for more than a week. The latest press statement came  from  Education Minister  Eric Stanford, who seized on the 2022 PISA ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    3 days ago
  • Climate Change: Failed again
    There was another ETS auction this morning. and like all the other ones this year, it failed to clear - meaning that 23 million tons of carbon (15 million ordinary units plus 8 million in the cost containment reserve) went up in smoke. Or rather, they didn't. Being unsold at ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell On The Government’s Assault On Maori
    This isn’t news, but the National-led coalition is mounting a sustained assault on Treaty rights and obligations. Even so, Christopher Luxon has described yesterday’s nationwide protests by Maori as “pretty unfair.” Poor thing. In the NZ Herald, Audrey Young has compiled a useful list of the many, many ways that ...
    3 days ago
  • Rising costs hit farmers hard, but  there’s more  positive news  for  them this  week 
    New Zealand’s dairy industry, the mainstay of the country’s export trade, has  been under  pressure  from rising  costs. Down on the  farm, this  has  been  hitting  hard. But there  was more positive news this week,  first   from the latest Fonterra GDT auction where  prices  rose,  and  then from  a  report ...
    Point of OrderBy tutere44
    3 days ago
  • ROB MacCULLOCH:  Newshub and NZ Herald report misleading garbage about ACT’s van Veldon not follo...
    Rob MacCulloch writes –  In their rush to discredit the new government (which our MainStream Media regard as illegitimate and having no right to enact the democratic will of voters) the NZ Herald and Newshub are arguing ACT’s Deputy Leader Brooke van Veldon is not following Treasury advice ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    3 days ago
  • Top 10 for Wednesday, December 6
    Even many young people who smoke support smokefree policies, fitting in with previous research showing the large majority of people who smoke regret starting and most want to quit. Photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: Here’s my pick of the top 10 news and analysis links elsewhere on the morning of Wednesday, December ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago
  • Eleven years of work.
    Well it didn’t take six months, but the leaks have begun. Yes the good ship Coalition has inadvertently released a confidential cabinet paper into the public domain, discussing their axing of Fair Pay Agreements (FPAs).Oops.Just when you were admiring how smoothly things were going for the new government, they’ve had ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    3 days ago
  • Why we're missing out on sharply lower inflation
    A wave of new and higher fees, rates and charges will ripple out over the economy in the next 18 months as mayors, councillors, heads of department and price-setters for utilities such as gas, electricity, water and parking ramp up charges. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Just when most ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago
  • How Did We Get Here?
    Hi,Kiwis — keep the evening of December 22nd free. I have a meetup planned, and will send out an invite over the next day or so. This sounds sort of crazy to write, but today will be Tony Stamp’s final Totally Normal column of 2023. Somehow we’ve made it to ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    3 days ago
  • At a glance – Has the greenhouse effect been falsified?
    On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
    4 days ago
  • New Zealaders  have  high expectations of  new  government:  now let’s see if it can deliver?
    The electorate has high expectations of the  new  government.  The question is: can  it  deliver?    Some  might  say  the  signs are not  promising. Protestors   are  already marching in the streets. The  new  Prime Minister has had  little experience of managing  very diverse politicians  in coalition. The economy he  ...
    Point of OrderBy tutere44
    4 days ago
  • You won't believe some of the numbers you have to pull when you're a Finance Minister
    Nicola of Marsden:Yo, normies! We will fix your cost of living worries by giving you a tax cut of 150 dollars. 150! Cash money! Vote National.Various people who can read and count:Actually that's 150 over a fortnight. Not a week, which is how you usually express these things.And actually, it looks ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    4 days ago
  • Pushback
    When this government came to power, it did so on an explicitly white supremacist platform. Undermining the Waitangi Tribunal, removing Māori representation in local government, over-riding the courts which had tried to make their foreshore and seabed legislation work, eradicating te reo from public life, and ultimately trying to repudiate ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Defence ministerial meeting meant Collins missed the Maori Party’s mischief-making capers in Parli...
    Buzz from the Beehive Maybe this is not the best time for our Minister of Defence to have gone overseas. Not when the Maori Party is inviting (or should that be inciting?) its followers to join a revolution in a post which promoted its protest plans with a picture of ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    4 days ago
  • Threats of war have been followed by an invitation to join the revolution – now let’s see how th...
     A Maori Party post on Instagram invited party followers to ….  Tangata Whenua, Tangata Tiriti, Join the REVOLUTION! & make a stand!  Nationwide Action Day, All details in tiles swipe to see locations.  • This is our 1st hit out and tomorrow Tuesday the 5th is the opening ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    4 days ago
  • Top 10 for Tuesday, December 4
    The RBNZ governor is citing high net migration and profit-led inflation as factors in the bank’s hawkish stance. Photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: Here’s my pick of the top 10 news and analysis links elsewhere on the morning of Tuesday, December 5, including:Reserve Bank Governor Adrian Orr says high net migration and ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • Nicola Willis' 'show me the money' moment
    Willis has accused labour of “economic vandalism’, while Robertson described her comments as a “desperate diversion from somebody who can't make their tax package add up”. There will now be an intense focus on December 20 to see whether her hyperbole is backed up by true surprises. Photo montage: Lynn ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • CRL costs money but also provides huge benefits
    The City Rail Link has been in the headlines a bit recently so I thought I’d look at some of them. First up, yesterday the NZ Herald ran this piece about the ongoing costs of the CRL. Auckland ratepayers will be saddled with an estimated bill of $220 million each ...
    4 days ago
  • And I don't want the world to see us.
    Is this the most shambolic government in the history of New Zealand? Given that parliament hasn’t even opened they’ve managed quite a list of achievements to date.The Smokefree debacle trading lives for tax cuts, the Trumpian claims of bribery in the Media, an International award for indifference, and today the ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    4 days ago
  • Cooking the books
    Finance Minister Nicola Willis late yesterday stopped only slightly short of accusing her predecessor Grant Robertson of cooking the books. She complained that the Half Yearly Economic and Fiscal Update (HYEFU), due to be made public on December 20, would show “fiscal cliffs” that would amount to “billions of ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    5 days ago
  • Most people don’t realize how much progress we’ve made on climate change
    This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections The year was 2015. ‘Uptown Funk’ with Bruno Mars was at the top of the music charts. Jurassic World was the most popular new movie in theaters. And decades of futility in international climate negotiations was about to come to an end in ...
    5 days ago
  • Of Parliamentary Oaths and Clive Boonham
    As a heads-up, I am not one of those people who stay awake at night thinking about weird Culture War nonsense. At least so far as the current Maori/Constitutional arrangements go. In fact, I actually consider it the least important issue facing the day to day lives of New ...
    5 days ago
  • Bearing True Allegiance?
    Strong Words: “We do not consent, we do not surrender, we do not cede, we do not submit; we, the indigenous, are rising. We do not buy into the colonial fictions this House is built upon. Te Pāti Māori pledges allegiance to our mokopuna, our whenua, and Te Tiriti o ...
    5 days ago
  • You cannot be serious
    Some days it feels like the only thing to say is: Seriously? No, really. Seriously?OneSomeone has used their health department access to share data about vaccinations and patients, and inform the world that New Zealanders have been dying in their hundreds of thousands from the evil vaccine. This of course is pure ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    5 days ago
  • A promise kept: govt pulls the plug on Lake Onslow scheme – but this saving of $16bn is denounced...
    Buzz from the Beehive After $21.8 million was spent on investigations, the plug has been pulled on the Lake Onslow pumped-hydro electricity scheme, The scheme –  that technically could have solved New Zealand’s looming energy shortage, according to its champions – was a key part of the defeated Labour government’s ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    5 days ago
  • CHRIS TROTTER: The Maori Party and Oath of Allegiance
    If those elected to the Māori Seats refuse to take them, then what possible reason could the country have for retaining them?   Chris Trotter writes – Christmas is fast approaching, which, as it does every year, means gearing up for an abstruse general knowledge question. “Who was ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    5 days ago
  • BRIAN EASTON:  Forward to 2017
    The coalition party agreements are mainly about returning to 2017 when National lost power. They show commonalities but also some serious divergencies. Brian Easton writes The two coalition agreements – one National and ACT, the other National and New Zealand First – are more than policy documents. ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • Climate Change: Fossils
    When the new government promised to allow new offshore oil and gas exploration, they were warned that there would be international criticism and reputational damage. Naturally, they arrogantly denied any possibility that that would happen. And then they finally turned up at COP, to criticism from Palau, and a "fossil ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • GEOFFREY MILLER:  NZ’s foreign policy resets on AUKUS, Gaza and Ukraine
    Geoffrey Miller writes – New Zealand’s international relations are under new management. And Winston Peters, the new foreign minister, is already setting a change agenda. As expected, this includes a more pro-US positioning when it comes to the Pacific – where Peters will be picking up where he ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell on the government’s smokefree laws debacle
    The most charitable explanation for National’s behaviour over the smokefree legislation is that they have dutifully fulfilled the wishes of the Big Tobacco lobby and then cast around – incompetently, as it turns out – for excuses that might sell this health policy U-turn to the public. The less charitable ...
    5 days ago
  • Top 10 links at 10 am for Monday, December 4
    As Deb Te Kawa writes in an op-ed, the new Government seems to have immediately bought itself fights with just about everyone. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Here’s my pick of the top 10 news and analysis links elsewhere as of 10 am on Monday December 4, including:Palau’s President ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Be Honest.
    Let’s begin today by thinking about job interviews.During my career in Software Development I must have interviewed hundreds of people, hired at least a hundred, but few stick in the memory.I remember one guy who was so laid back he was practically horizontal, leaning back in his chair until his ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago
  • Geoffrey Miller: New Zealand’s foreign policy resets on AUKUS, Gaza and Ukraine
    New Zealand’s international relations are under new management. And Winston Peters, the new foreign minister, is already setting a change agenda. As expected, this includes a more pro-US positioning when it comes to the Pacific – where Peters will be picking up where he left off. Peters sought to align ...
    Democracy ProjectBy Geoffrey Miller
    5 days ago
  • Auckland rail tunnel the world’s most expensive
    Auckland’s city rail link is the most expensive rail project in the world per km, and the CRL boss has described the cost of infrastructure construction in Aotearoa as a crisis. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The 3.5 km City Rail Link (CRL) tunnel under Auckland’s CBD has cost ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • First big test coming
    The first big test of the new Government’s approach to Treaty matters is likely to be seen in the return of the Resource Management Act. RMA Minister Chris Bishop has confirmed that he intends to introduce legislation to repeal Labour’s recently passed Natural and Built Environments Act and its ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    6 days ago
  • The Song of Saqua: Volume III
    Time to revisit something I haven’t covered in a while: the D&D campaign, with Saqua the aquatic half-vampire. Last seen in July: https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2023/07/27/the-song-of-saqua-volume-ii/ The delay is understandable, once one realises that the interim saw our DM come down with a life-threatening medical situation. They have since survived to make ...
    6 days ago
  • Chris Bishop: Smokin’
    Yes. Correct. It was an election result. And now we are the elected government. ...
    My ThinksBy boonman
    6 days ago
  • 2023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #48
    A chronological listing of news and opinion articles posted on the Skeptical Science  Facebook Page during the past week: Sun, Nov 26, 2023 thru Dec 2, 2023. Story of the Week CO2 readings from Mauna Loa show failure to combat climate change Daily atmospheric carbon dioxide data from Hawaiian volcano more ...
    6 days ago
  • Affirmative Action.
    Affirmative Action was a key theme at this election, although I don’t recall anyone using those particular words during the campaign.They’re positive words, and the way the topic was talked about was anything but. It certainly wasn’t a campaign of saying that Affirmative Action was a good thing, but that, ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    6 days ago
  • 100 days of something
    It was at the end of the Foxton straights, at the end of 1978, at 100km/h, that someone tried to grab me from behind on my Yamaha.They seemed to be yanking my backpack. My first thought was outrage. My second was: but how? Where have they come from? And my ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    6 days ago
  • Look who’s stepped up to champion Winston
    There’s no news to be gleaned from the government’s official website today  – it contains nothing more than the message about the site being under maintenance. The time this maintenance job is taking and the costs being incurred have us musing on the government’s commitment to an assault on inflation. ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    1 week ago
  • What's The Story?
    Don’t you sometimes wish they’d just tell the truth? No matter how abhorrent or ugly, just straight up tell us the truth?C’mon guys, what you’re doing is bad enough anyway, pretending you’re not is only adding insult to injury.Instead of all this bollocks about the Smokefree changes being to do ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    1 week ago
  • The longest of weeks
    Hello! Here comes the Saturday edition of More Than A Feilding, catching you up on the past week’s editions.Friday Under New Management Week in review, quiz style1. Which of these best describes Aotearoa?a. Progressive nation, proud of its egalitarian spirit and belief in a fair go b. Best little country on the planet c. ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    1 week ago
  • Suggested sessions of EGU24 to submit abstracts to
    Like earlier this year, members from our team will be involved with next year's General Assembly of the European Geosciences Union (EGU). The conference will take place on premise in Vienna as well as online from April 14 to 19, 2024. The session catalog has been available since November 1 ...
    1 week ago
  • Under New Management
    1. Which of these best describes Aotearoa?a. Progressive nation, proud of its egalitarian spirit and belief in a fair go b. Best little country on the planet c. Under New Management 2. Which of these best describes the 100 days of action announced this week by the new government?a. Petulantb. Simplistic and wrongheaded c. ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    1 week ago
  • While we wait patiently, our new Minister of Education is up and going with a 100-day action plan
    Sorry to say, the government’s official website is still out of action. When Point of Order paid its daily visit, the message was the same as it has been for the past week: Site under maintenance Beehive.govt.nz is currently under maintenance. We will be back shortly. Thank you for your ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    1 week ago
  • DAVID FARRAR: Hysterical bullshit
    Radio NZ reports: Te Pāti Māori’s co-leader Debbie Ngarewa-Packer has accused the new government of “deliberate .. systemic genocide” over its policies to roll back the smokefree policy and the Māori Health Authority. The left love hysterical language. If you oppose racial quotas in laws, you are a racist. And now if you sack ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    1 week ago

  • Ministers visit Hawke’s Bay to grasp recovery needs
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon joined Cyclone Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell and Transport and Local Government Minister Simeon Brown, to meet leaders of cyclone and flood-affected regions in the Hawke’s Bay. The visit reinforced the coalition Government’s commitment to support the region and better understand its ongoing requirements, Mr Mitchell says.  ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • New Zealand condemns malicious cyber activity
    New Zealand has joined the UK and other partners in condemning malicious cyber activity conducted by the Russian Government, Minister Responsible for the Government Communications Security Bureau Judith Collins says. The statement follows the UK’s attribution today of malicious cyber activity impacting its domestic democratic institutions and processes, as well ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Disestablishment of Te Pūkenga begins
    The Government has begun the process of disestablishing Te Pūkenga as part of its 100-day plan, Minister for Tertiary Education and Skills Penny Simmonds says.  “I have started putting that plan into action and have met with the chair and chief Executive of Te Pūkenga to advise them of my ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Climate Change Minister to attend COP28 in Dubai
    Climate Change Minister Simon Watts will be leaving for Dubai today to attend COP28, the 28th annual UN climate summit, this week. Simon Watts says he will push for accelerated action towards the goals of the Paris Agreement, deliver New Zealand’s national statement and connect with partner countries, private sector leaders ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New Zealand to host 2024 Pacific defence meeting
    Defence Minister Judith Collins yesterday announced New Zealand will host next year’s South Pacific Defence Ministers’ Meeting (SPDMM). “Having just returned from this year’s meeting in Nouméa, I witnessed first-hand the value of meeting with my Pacific counterparts to discuss regional security and defence matters. I welcome the opportunity to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Study shows need to remove distractions in class
    The Government is committed to lifting school achievement in the basics and that starts with removing distractions so young people can focus on their learning, Education Minister Erica Stanford says.   The 2022 PISA results released this week found that Kiwi kids ranked 5th in the world for being distracted ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Minister sets expectations of Commissioner
    Today I met with Police Commissioner Andrew Coster to set out my expectations, which he has agreed to, says Police Minister Mark Mitchell. Under section 16(1) of the Policing Act 2008, the Minister can expect the Police Commissioner to deliver on the Government’s direction and priorities, as now outlined in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • New Zealand needs a strong and stable ETS
    New Zealand needs a strong and stable Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) that is well placed for the future, after emission units failed to sell for the fourth and final auction of the year, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says.  At today’s auction, 15 million New Zealand units (NZUs) – each ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • PISA results show urgent need to teach the basics
    With 2022 PISA results showing a decline in achievement, Education Minister Erica Stanford is confident that the Coalition Government’s 100-day plan for education will improve outcomes for Kiwi kids.  The 2022 PISA results show a significant decline in the performance of 15-year-old students in maths compared to 2018 and confirms ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Collins leaves for Pacific defence meeting
    Defence Minister Judith Collins today departed for New Caledonia to attend the 8th annual South Pacific Defence Ministers’ meeting (SPDMM). “This meeting is an excellent opportunity to meet face-to-face with my Pacific counterparts to discuss regional security matters and to demonstrate our ongoing commitment to the Pacific,” Judith Collins says. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Working for Families gets cost of living boost
    Putting more money in the pockets of hard-working families is a priority of this Coalition Government, starting with an increase to Working for Families, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon says. “We are starting our 100-day plan with a laser focus on bringing down the cost of living, because that is what ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Post-Cabinet press conference
    Most weeks, following Cabinet, the Prime Minister holds a press conference for members of the Parliamentary Press Gallery. This page contains the transcripts from those press conferences, which are supplied by Hansard to the Office of the Prime Minister. It is important to note that the transcripts have not been edited ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Lake Onslow pumped hydro scheme scrapped
    The Government has axed the $16 billion Lake Onslow pumped hydro scheme championed by the previous government, Energy Minister Simeon Brown says. “This hugely wasteful project was pouring money down the drain at a time when we need to be reining in spending and focussing on rebuilding the economy and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • NZ welcomes further pause in fighting in Gaza
    New Zealand welcomes the further one-day extension of the pause in fighting, which will allow the delivery of more urgently-needed humanitarian aid into Gaza and the release of more hostages, Foreign Minister Winston Peters said. “The human cost of the conflict is horrific, and New Zealand wants to see the violence ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Condolences on passing of Henry Kissinger
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters today expressed on behalf of the New Zealand Government his condolences to the family of former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, who has passed away at the age of 100 at his home in Connecticut. “While opinions on his legacy are varied, Secretary Kissinger was ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Backing our kids to learn the basics
    Every child deserves a world-leading education, and the Coalition Government is making that a priority as part of its 100-day plan. Education Minister Erica Stanford says that will start with banning cellphone use at school and ensuring all primary students spend one hour on reading, writing, and maths each day. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • US Business Summit Speech – Regional stability through trade
    I would like to begin by echoing the Prime Minister’s thanks to the organisers of this Summit, Fran O’Sullivan and the Auckland Business Chamber.  I want to also acknowledge the many leading exporters, sector representatives, diplomats, and other leaders we have joining us in the room. In particular, I would like ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Keynote Address to the United States Business Summit, Auckland
    Good morning. Thank you, Rosemary, for your warm introduction, and to Fran and Simon for this opportunity to make some brief comments about New Zealand’s relationship with the United States.  This is also a chance to acknowledge my colleague, Minister for Trade Todd McClay, Ambassador Tom Udall, Secretary of Foreign ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • India New Zealand Business Council Speech, India as a Strategic Priority
    Good morning, tēnā koutou and namaskar. Many thanks, Michael, for your warm welcome. I would like to acknowledge the work of the India New Zealand Business Council in facilitating today’s event and for the Council’s broader work in supporting a coordinated approach for lifting New Zealand-India relations. I want to also ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Coalition Government unveils 100-day plan
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has laid out the Coalition Government’s plan for its first 100 days from today. “The last few years have been incredibly tough for so many New Zealanders. People have put their trust in National, ACT and NZ First to steer them towards a better, more prosperous ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • New Zealand welcomes European Parliament vote on the NZ-EU Free Trade Agreement
    A significant milestone in ratifying the NZ-EU Free Trade Agreement (FTA) was reached last night, with 524 of the 705 member European Parliament voting in favour to approve the agreement. “I’m delighted to hear of the successful vote to approve the NZ-EU FTA in the European Parliament overnight. This is ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago

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