So now it’s a family not a club

114 comments on “So now it’s a family not a club ”

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1. tc 1

   4 February 2015 at 4:28 pm

   Hammond actually meant ‘da family’ as in the sopranos so whadda ya gunna do.
   • Draco T Bastard 1.1

     4 February 2015 at 5:01 pm

     +1
   • Colonial Rawshark 1.2

     4 February 2015 at 6:17 pm

     bada bing
2. Richard 2

   4 February 2015 at 4:30 pm

   Yep, let the beheadings and burnings continue. It’s not our problem and anyway it’s more important that our side wins an election aye.
   • r0b 2.1

     4 February 2015 at 5:05 pm

     There is a case for intervention on humanitarian grounds:
     http://thestandard.org.nz/the-price-of-the-club/
     That is not the case being made by the Nats, or by Hammond. If we are going to go, we should go with our eyes open, for the right reasons.
   • Draco T Bastard 2.2

     4 February 2015 at 5:05 pm

     The be-headings and burnings are pretty much a result of the West going in there guns blazing. I doubt if us going in there again guns blazing is going to make a difference.

     The only way that ISIS can be stopped is if the people who live there stop them.
     • Liberal Realist 2.2.1

       4 February 2015 at 6:33 pm

       +1.

       It’s almost like right wingers don’t understand cause & effect.

       Cause = Rampant brutal Western imperialism in the Middle East.
       Effect = Brutal creations like Al Qaeda, ISIS etc.
       • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2.1.1

         4 February 2015 at 6:40 pm

         Don’t underestimate their local problems too: Europe went through massive upheaval to separate churches, states, and monarchs.

         We’re certainly not helping that either.
         • Liberal Realist 2.2.1.1.1

           4 February 2015 at 7:32 pm

           I agree that internal / local problems shouldn’t be underestimated. Tribal, ideological & sectarian differences have always caused problems. Western Imperialism has amplified existing problems on top of the death and devastation it’s caused, adding to the extreme misery of the innocent.
     • saveNZ 2.2.2

       4 February 2015 at 8:27 pm

       +1 Draco & Liberal
     • thatguynz 2.2.3

       5 February 2015 at 10:54 am

       And of course stopping the funding and the provision of arms.. Now where do both of those elements come from?
   • Tom Jackson 2.3

     4 February 2015 at 5:18 pm

     1. It’s not our problem.

     2. The proposed remedy is very likely to make things worse.
     • One Anonymous Bloke 2.3.1

       4 February 2015 at 6:45 pm

       Of course it’s “our” problem – unless you take the view that there’s no such thing as global society.

       People are being murdered and enslaved – if it’s not “our problem” why bother raising human rights issues with China?

       If it’s not “our” problem why does Noam Chomsky bang on about the importance of oil in US foreign policy?
       • Colonial Rawshark 2.3.1.1

         4 February 2015 at 6:51 pm

         Sending troops in with no winning plan and supporting foolish imperial military adventures adds to the problem, pours fuel on an out of control fire.
         • One Anonymous Bloke 2.3.1.1.1

           4 February 2015 at 7:09 pm

           I agree.

           So we stop hosing the fire down with petroleum – we’re still holding the nozzle.

           We have to replace cretinous right wing policy with something.
           • Pascals bookie 2.3.1.1.1.1

             5 February 2015 at 11:05 am

             NZ is a tiny nation though. And we here are just citizens of it.

             We could spend hours debating what sort of solutions might resolve what is unfolding in the ME, but unless the US et al take notoce, what’s the point?

             NZ’s choice is to either climb on board the big boys plan, or to sit it out. For all the talk about being in the Famclubily, the chances of them changing high level policy because we say so are about zip.

             And as citizens, the choice we face is to support the plan put forward by our govt, or to oppose it.

             I am under no obligation to come up with a plan. What would you do then, if you were boss of the world, is just a weird hypothetical.

             I’m being asked to support a plan. I think it looks like shit, so I don’t. The obligation that actually follows is for them to come up with a plan I support, if they want that support. innit

             The govt asked for the job. If I came up with a plan, let’s say a regional conference with reps from all major players, that would look at redrawing borders, replacing corrupt regimes and so on and so forth, would that happen?

             No, it would not. What is actually happening, is what we have to decide to support or not.
             • One Anonymous Bloke …

               5 February 2015 at 3:32 pm

               My point is that we can’t just say “I didn’t vote for them” and wash our hands of it: it’s being done in our name.
               • Colonial Rawshark …

                 7 February 2015 at 2:49 pm

                 It’s not being done in my fucking name, I think I’ve made that quite clear. It’s a fools errand led by the same people who fucked Iraq up and by the same people who thought they could successfully train up the Iraqi security forces. Other people like yourself can go along with it though, but that’s your own choice.
                 • One Anonymous Bloke …

                   7 February 2015 at 2:55 pm

                   “Go along with it”. Are you English comprehension challenged today?

                   “In our name” – yes – they’re called the New Zealand Army, Ngāti Tūmatauenga, not the National Party Army.
                   • Colonial Rawshark …

                     7 February 2015 at 2:59 pm

                     I feel sorry for the guys in our Defence Forces who will be following these shitty badly thought out orders, but as I said before, this ain’t being done in my name.

                     You can be more passive and accepting about it if you like.
                   • One Anonymous Bloke …

                     7 February 2015 at 3:02 pm

                     🙄

                     Sure I “could”, and you could be more hostile and passive-aggressive, too, if you made a special effort.
         • Robert M 2.3.1.1.2

           7 February 2015 at 2:23 pm

           Yes we seem intent on shooting up a hornets nest. The invasion of Iraq the last time seemed a roaring success, didnt it and the Americans are still in Afghanistan 13 years later and the Taliban and Isis seem to still be causing Mayhem. Given the support for radical islam in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, the problem can at best only be contained.
           The strategy of the 1995-2003 of an aerial blockade of Iraq seemed to greatly weaken Saddam and drone and air strikes seem effective in stopping the progress of Isis units and degrading their physical artillery etc.
           Given the rapid decline in the US army and marines numbers and the fact British army numbers are reducing to 82,000 it will be increasingly difficult to contain Isis on the ground.
           Most of all on Hammond’s visit, look at the shambles of the British Army in Afghanistan and Iraq, remember Basra , remember the shambles of ineffectiveness and excessive belief in its power of the British Army in Helmsland province, it lacked the men, equipment and ruthlessness to do the job and the US had to supplant them.
           The decline of the British military is getting to the point where its Navy is equivalent to Spain and Italy’s and its best infantry probably less lethal and hard going than the Dutch, Germans and Scandinavians.
           The two new British carriers will have 12 F-35s between them and some RAF planes.
           Surely Britain and NZ should stay out until our military strategy is rethought over the next decade. We already often have an Orion and often a frigate in the Indian Ocean and probably a few detached SAS men. There is little military point in doing more. And a lot of point of stopping the pointless interventions, until real capability is developed.
           • Colonial Rawshark 2.3.1.1.2.1

             7 February 2015 at 2:53 pm

             IMO we need to be a local military and diplomatic force stabilising the Pacific and the southern seas, as well as protecting our own resources. The US, China and Russia are going to be the Pacific powers of the 21st century. Without a clear vision for NZ as an independent and trusted broker in the international community between these giants, we are going to keep getting set up as fodder in other peoples’ wars.
       • Tom Jackson 2.3.1.2

         5 February 2015 at 12:36 am

         For it to be our problem in the sense of having an obligation to help fix it, it would have to be possible to fix it. But it is not, for many reasons.

         1. There’s no real hope of military victory that won’t end in an occupation that is costlier than doing nothing.

         2. The countries promising to do it are run by incompetents whose endless fuck ups never seem sufficient to get them removed. These are the countries who caused the mess in the first place. They are incapable of learning and congenitally stupid. We ally with them at our peril.

         3. The myriad conflicts of interest in the region mean that it is in practice impossible to be on one side.

         4. Containment is a less risky option.
         • Colonial Rawshark 2.3.1.2.1

           7 February 2015 at 2:55 pm

           2. The countries promising to do it are run by incompetents whose endless fuck ups never seem sufficient to get them removed.

           On the contrary these same crappy people keep getting promoted with ever larger pay packets and bigger budgets to control. All the signs of a declining empire.
   • Colonial Rawshark 2.4

     4 February 2015 at 6:19 pm

     Richard, you want us to invade Saudi Arabia now? You do realise although they decapitated 87 people last year (I think that beats ISIS) they are our “friends.”
     • Stephanie Rodgers 2.4.1

       4 February 2015 at 8:19 pm

       I was pretty much about to leave this exact comment then thought, “No, scroll down and see if someone already made this point.” 😀
       • Colonial Rawshark 2.4.1.1

         4 February 2015 at 11:21 pm

         Ha! 😎
   • miravox 2.5

     4 February 2015 at 8:56 pm

     If it’s about beheading and burnings why shouldn’t we impose ourselves through military means (without even going near diplomatic or humanitarian assistance, or creating a scene in the UN) in Nigeria and Mexico, for example?
     • ropata:rorschach 2.5.1

       4 February 2015 at 11:34 pm

       The glorious Western empire has a duty to spread peace and democracy, and also test out drone technology and build oil infrastructure to help the Iraqi and Syrian people.
       • David H 2.5.1.1

         5 February 2015 at 8:46 am

         Not only Drone Tech they also have a shite load of old bombs and stuff to get rid of and new and ‘exciting’ ways to kill and maim our fellow Man.
         And as to the Hooray Henry as someone born in Britain ( I renounced that when they illegally invaded Iraq). Piss of Home! We ( the population) are NOT family, or want to be in your exclusive club of Killers. Thank you very much Don’t let the door hit you on your way out!
3. Craig Glen Eden 3

   4 February 2015 at 4:43 pm

   I totally agree with no right turn, pfffft family my arse. The sooner we ditch the Monarchy the better and those bloody bullshit titles. Key’s sucking up makes me want to vomit.
   • Wynston 3.1

     5 February 2015 at 1:58 pm

     I think it might have more to do with Shonkey wanting to remain one of Obama’s golf buddies. He’s had his treat of a few days with the Queen and is no doubt now looking in the longer term.
4. mac1 4

   4 February 2015 at 4:54 pm

   “family”- is this a new code word for “people like us”, “white races”? Is this a new term to promote divisiveness, to differentiate us from the ‘other”, from the non-family, from the foreigner? Is this part of the rhetoric of war?
   • GregJ 4.1

     4 February 2015 at 8:25 pm

     Yep – it’s hovering close to some very “folkish” beliefs beloved of the far right – “Ein volk, ein …” 👿
   • Murray Rawshark 4.2

     4 February 2015 at 11:39 pm

     It’s actually a fairly old word for the white Anglo group of nations and is disgusting in its appeal to white English speaking superiority. It’s the notion that got kids slaughtered at Gallipoli and saw Triumph, Norton, and BSA go out of business. As a pakeha, my ties are not to that family at all.
5. Neil 5

   4 February 2015 at 5:04 pm

   If Key is so keen on war & sending other peoples kids to get killed he should send [r0b: prefer not to name them thanks] to lead by example.
   • Tom Jackson 5.1

     4 February 2015 at 5:19 pm

     Ren and Stimpy?
     • Tracey 5.1.1

       4 February 2015 at 5:51 pm

       gerry and nick?
   • b waghorn 5.2

     4 February 2015 at 5:58 pm

     Slater and lusk think they are gun toting hard men they should be at the head of the charge
     • Weepus beard 5.2.1

       4 February 2015 at 9:04 pm

       I’ve not watched any of these beheadings yet, but I might be forced to watch that one.
       • Coffee Connoisseur 5.2.1.1

         5 February 2015 at 6:20 am

         I have and recommend that you don’t. I saw this years ago and it is a most horrific image burned into my mind that I just cannot ever forget. You are better knowing it is happening but never seeing it….at least for the sake of your own mind at least.
6. Tracey 6

   4 February 2015 at 5:49 pm

   my maternal and paternal , paternal lines left scotland in the 1860s. both families forced to live off unforgiving land following the famous Clearances. If we are a big british family its a draconian dysfunctional family that bullies those who cant fight back.

   is honest john going to get taxes on kiwis flying to london lowered and better visas in return for our part in another conflict with no end?
7. Adam 7

   4 February 2015 at 5:50 pm

   Shades of Frank Gill (“family” ie grandfather to Mark Mitchell MP) that white Rhodesians were “our kith and kin”.
8. logie97 8

   4 February 2015 at 6:13 pm

   The question that never seems to be asked and therefore not addressed by the gunslingers of the West is ,”Why is the Middle East in such a state?
   Some might suggest that the Balfour declaration would be a good place to start.
   • thatguynz 8.1

     5 February 2015 at 10:56 am

     +1
9. Colonial Rawshark 9

   4 February 2015 at 6:21 pm

   NZ appears to have no idea of the international role it needs to play in the Pacific as a nation between the US, China and Russia.

   We need to be an independent, honest broker and trusted intermediary between these great nations, not cozying up to ex imperial powers.
   • Tracey 9.1

     5 February 2015 at 9:36 am

     I would support us going in as part of humanitarian and rebuilding of a UN sanctioned action. Medical, aid and rebuilding are our forte as we have shown many times int he past. It also helps the very people we are supposedly going there to assist.
10. ghostwhowalksnz 10

    4 February 2015 at 7:24 pm

    I think the “family” they really mean we are going to fight for is the SEVEN SISTERS
    • RedBaronCV 10.1

      4 February 2015 at 7:27 pm

      Good call –
11. Skinny 11

    4 February 2015 at 8:00 pm

    Yesterday I spent the day with a medic that was one of the first on the scene at the London bombing. Hearing grim details of the carnage was eye opening. Now with the likelihood of our pending involvement in the Middle East, I think I’ll chose on the side of caution and abstain from attending any of the cricket world cup matches here. Our sercurity measures would pale in comparison to Australia, any terrorist group would view us as an easy target. Of course Key will roll the dice and not want to rattle the nerves of the nations sheep with armed counter terrorism solders everywhere.
    • greywarshark 11.1

      4 February 2015 at 10:14 pm

      And Australia, almost our kith and kin? How do they treat us when we want to visit in a friendly way and stay a while? Do we get invited to a meal, or do they point us in the direction of the nearest burger joint then turn their backs on us? Our friends, indeed. While we carry on in our doormat approach to them, extending social welfare and other services.

      Our Prime Minister was insulted by being subjected to the Australian government’s new security measures in 2003, also Sir Michael Somare, Papua New Guinea’s PM was angry about his treatment. How would Oz have acted to top USA officials or dignitries from European countries?
      At Sydney airport in 2003, Prime Minister Helen Clark of New Zealand was scanned for explosives by a hand-held wand, even though security officials had been told who she was. “It’s most unusual to stop a head of government,” she said at the time. (Reuters)
      http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/international/29briefs.html?pagewanted=print&position=&_r=0
    • BassGuy 11.2

      4 February 2015 at 10:35 pm

      There’s nothing to worry about, honestly I don’t know what all the fuss is about.

      John Key will be protected by the Diplomatic Protection Squad.

      Oh, you’re talking about us and not him? That’s a different story…
12. saveNZ 12

    4 February 2015 at 8:34 pm

    What about when we were disowned from the family over no Nukes?
    Very selective about when we are part of the family (fighting wars that we didn’t start and get no benefit from and in many cases are just the grunt cannon fodder like Gallipoli).
    Not looking forward to seeing NZ soldiers being burned alive on fb.
    But it’s so easy to send soldiers to their deaths to fight a war that ignites further with every bomb, when you are playing golf in Hawaii.
13. Jrobin 13

    4 February 2015 at 9:39 pm

    NRT, couldn’t have put it better, precisely. What a load of jingoistic, manipulative, claptrap!
14. vto 14

    4 February 2015 at 9:58 pm

    Is this the same “family” that refused to stand by us when the French committed an act of terrorism in Auckland in the 1980’s?… yet demanded we stand by it over Salman Rushdie?

    Is this the same “family” that sent us to our certain deaths at Gallipoli in WWI?

    Is this the same “family” that refused to provide support for us in WWII?

    Is this the same “family” that has been an imperial and occupying and invading army in the middle east for god knows how long, causing misery and destruction and death?

    Is this the same “family” that nuked the shit out of our part of the world in the 1950s and later?

    Is this the same “family” that has totally shat on Te Tiriti and its partner thereof?

    Is this the same “family” that has completely shat on my own true family in parts of the world in recent centuries? To such an extent we were driven out?

    Is this fuckwit for real?

    FUCK OFF BRITISH WANKERS… don’t you realise some of us came here to escape you cunts. Piss off

    I offer you NOTHING ….
    • Draco T Bastard 14.1

      5 February 2015 at 11:29 am

      Yep, that ‘family’.
    • Wynston 14.2

      5 February 2015 at 1:50 pm

      “Is this the same “family” that refused to stand by us when the French committed an act of terrorism in Auckland in the 1980’s.”
      Yep!

      “Is this the same “family” that has totally shat on Te Tiriti and its partner thereof?”
      No, that was the colonial governments of the day.

      “Is this the same “family” that nuked the shit out of our part of the world in the 1950s and later?”
      Only partly. The Frogs did that also.
15. Lloyd 15

    4 February 2015 at 10:24 pm

    Whatever happens, in the end the Kurds will get screwed. This is what has happened for the last 2600 years or so…..
    • GregJ 15.1

      4 February 2015 at 10:41 pm

      Yes – given the history of Kurdish treatment by pretty much everyone it’s hard to feel optimistic for them.

      Did you see the recent France 24 report on the fighting in Kobani? Particularly fascinating that 40-50% of YPG fighting in Kobani are women. Apparently Daesh (Da’ish) fighters hate that their comrades are just as likely to have been killed by a woman as a man.
      • Pascals bookie 15.1.1

        5 February 2015 at 10:36 am

        I too fear for the Kurds.

        Take a read of this article from yesterday, (you too Wayne, especially you in fact)

        http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-02-03/exclusive-iran-s-militias-are-taking-over-iraq-s-army

        This ‘training’ mission the english speaking west is embarking on. The US wants militia ‘integrated’ into the Iraqi armed forces. There is no reason to believe that this will result in the Iraqi forces becoming less sectarian. Just the opposite in fact, as can be seen quite clearly in that piece.

        This is the plan we are following, it is in support of the Iraqi govts plan, not the other way around. The reason the Iraqi government doesn’t want western troops on the ground also becomes clear from that piece, right?

        This is the war we are being asked to send troops into, albeit behind some wire. Clubs and family. Meet cousin Badr. And the Badr brigades are every (drill) bit as brutal as IS. There are pictures around social media of their burned alive captured prisoners too.
16. Incognito 16

    4 February 2015 at 10:26 pm

    A little bit of emotional blackmail has never gone astray.
17. Clemgeopin 17

    4 February 2015 at 10:58 pm

    I feel unease in entering any distant wars unless it is authorised by the United Nations.

    Powerful nations like US and UK have often failed in smart and fair diplomatic solutions and have alienated not only the locals there, but also other powerful nations such as Russia and China so find it hard to negotiate well supported UN resolutions.

    The problems of the middle East and the evil ISIS should be left to the surrounding regional countries there to sort/wipe out using their own diplomacy and/or local armed forces and the huge amount of cash, resources and military equipment that the west/world gives them.

    NZ involvement will be pretty useless, minor and will be of miniscule impact compared to that of the tens of thousands of the local soldiers and the main western powers.

    For us the risk will far outweigh any worthwhile ‘real’ use there, except for the tokenism of pleasing our western masters, our so called I spy five spy ‘club’ and the newly named fair weather ‘family’.

    Some earlier interventions have been sometimes on false pretensions and have mostly been disastrous for the countries, innocent people, as well as for the regions.

    I am conflicted on the question and quite concerned either way.
18. Wayne Mapp 18

    5 February 2015 at 8:38 am

    I knew as soon as I saw the word “family” that the more left commentators would be fulminating. For most on the right and centre right, the words “family” and “club” used in this context will be seen as good. It is convienient shorthand about history, shared values, and relationships.
    And been seen to do something about ISIS, even if quite modest, would also been seen as appropriate. Training Iraqis in a behind the wire situation is about as safe as one could get in the circumstances.
    I wonder (serious question) what would seen as a sufficient reason to deploy troops. Obviously an attack on NZ or Aus, and I presume Timor Leste and Solomonns were also seen as appropriate. Would an attack on ùSingapore or Malaysia qualify?
    • Murray Rawshark 18.1

      5 February 2015 at 8:58 am

      We did not deploy troops when Timor Leste was attacked. As for families, this one has more problems than your colleague Mike Sabin’s one has.
      • Wayne 18.1.1

        5 February 2015 at 9:00 am

        Hmm, I presume you are talking about 1974?
        • Murray Rawshark 18.1.1.1

          5 February 2015 at 9:04 am

          We ignored Timor Leste for years after the Indonesian invasion, despite the heroic efforts of Maire Leadbetter. We still ignore West Papua, also invaded by Indonesia. What is happening there is as bad as anything ISIL is doing, but your family likes the mining licences.
    • Tracey 18.2

      5 February 2015 at 9:38 am

      Speaking of shared values, how do you view the PM’s handling of Mike Sabin from 1 December 2014 to date?

      Any reason we can’t go in as humanitarian, medical and engineering re-build Wayne? All necessary parts of any action surely. Something we are very good at wouldn’t you agree (especially the last two).
      • Wynston 18.2.1

        5 February 2015 at 2:07 pm

        We did that after the Yanks and their mates invaded Iraq and finished up having to pull out because of the dangers.
        My attitude is that NZ didn’t create the problem, the US and its mates (including Saudi Arabia) did so it should be left to them to try and fix it!
        As to training the Iraqi army, didn’t the US spend some billion dollars doing just that only to see them run from Daesh forces leaving most of their heavy weaponry behind?
    • framu 18.3

      5 February 2015 at 9:44 am

      “For most on the right and centre right, the words “family” and “club” used in this context will be seen as good.”

      all the while failing to see that its key engaging in scripted reframing designed to generate exactly that response – again

      which is kinda sad – for you, and us
      • Tracey 18.3.1

        5 February 2015 at 9:46 am

        perhaps because they understand that family and club is how they get to where they are today in more ways than one. The unemployed and low waged don’t have the same contacts and many join the military.
        • Clemgeopin 18.3.1.1

          5 February 2015 at 4:37 pm

          The unemployed and low waged don’t have the same contacts

          To the pro rich right wing family/club members, the poor and the unemployed are the useless bludgers, and the low waged are the unworthy ‘under class’….whose kids are destined to the gutters of hard life, while the kids of the wealthy can enjoy all the privileges like the government patronised super expensive private schools, special private hospitals, secure gated housing estates, heated swimming pools…….fancy coffins and fashionable tombstones.

          I heard on the radio this morning that in a few years, just 100 super rich individuals in the world will be owning 90% of the world’s wealth. Can that be true? or just made up stuff?
          • Tracey 18.3.1.1.1

            5 February 2015 at 5:48 pm

            i dont know but it wouldnt surprise me.
    • Pascals bookie 18.4

      5 February 2015 at 10:18 am

      For most on the right and centre right, the words “family” and “club” used in this context will be seen as good. It is convienient shorthand about history, shared values, and relationships.
      And been seen to do something about ISIS, even if quite modest, would also been seen as appropriate. Training Iraqis in a behind the wire situation is about as safe as one could get in the circumstances.

      Thank you, Wayne, for confirming many of my thoughts about how the right view these sorts of matters. Puddle deep, and to my mind, sickening.

      I don’t speak for the left, but my view is very different. I cherish the fact that we have a voluntary military who swear an oath to follow civilian orders.

      That is, historically, a very rare thing. I think it bestows on citizens certain duties, mainly, to be aware of, and to form opinions about, the orders politicians are giving our military.

      Our military will do as they are asked, to a very high standard. If they are asked to do something stupid, they will do it to the best of their ability. It is up to citizens to make sure, as best we can, to protect them from stupid orders. To not be careless about how we use the precious thing we have in our military.

      Deploying troops because we have a ‘family duty to be seen to be doing something’, strikes me, quite fucking frankly, as an insult to their service.

      Around deployments I would support, as a citizen, I tend to use a few questions modeled loosely on the Powell doctrine.

      1) Is there a national interest at stake.

      2) Is there a plan regarding the deployment that will actually help with that national interest

      3) Is there sufficient force, both politically and militarily, to achieve success with that plan.

      4) Are the politicians being open and honest about the interest at stake, the plan to deal with it, and the level of commitment likely to achieve success. ie, Does the propaganda being used to build support for the war dovetail with the realities of the war.

      5) Is there widespread support for the war

      These questions are aimed at deciding whether or not we actually know what we are getting ourselves into, in the broadest sense.

      When politicians undersell aspects of the actual war in order to get support for it, they get support for a war that doesn’t exist. Consequently, as the war progresses, domestic political decisions become paramount in the war itself. If we are soft footed into a war, and the war requires more than we were told it would, the political cost for politicians of prosecuting the war properly becomes too high. So the fuck around and the whole war becomes a farce.

      So fuck that, our military deserves better.
      • One Anonymous Bloke 18.4.1

        5 February 2015 at 4:09 pm

        ^^^ This.

        A thousand times this. To protect them from stupid orders.
        • Tracey 18.4.1.1

          5 February 2015 at 5:50 pm

          like at gallipoli and the somme and every other massacre where wealth determined who gave the orders and not much has changed
      • Clemgeopin 18.4.2

        5 February 2015 at 5:17 pm

        Around deployments I would support, as a citizen, I tend to use a few questions modeled loosely on the Powell doctrine

        Two other important questions, with sub questions, to add to your excellent list:

        * What ARE we fighting against? Is the enemy attacking us? Is the fighting a conventional war or a guerrilla war or an ideological, fundamental extremist religious war? How do we fight that? For how long will we fight this? Should we fight this with guns or diplomacy or education or some other better way? Will the western presence help increase the locals’ resentment and misery and will the enemy’s strength and further recruitment get a bigger boost? Is the enemy deliberately drawing us in? why?

        * If we do enter the war without the UN approval, do we have an easy and safe exit strategy? What would that be?
    • Draco T Bastard 18.5

      5 February 2015 at 11:26 am

      I knew as soon as I saw the word “family” that the more left commentators would be fulminating. For most on the right and centre right, the words “family” and “club” used in this context will be seen as good. It is convienient shorthand about history, shared values, and relationships.

      Yes, it was obvious that the right-wing would see those words as good and that they’d get upset when the rest of us pointed out that they were absolute BS. IMO, we have history but don’t share the same values as the terrorist and rogue nations that the US and UK have become.

      And been seen to do something about ISIS, even if quite modest, would also been seen as appropriate.

      We should support the people there in getting rid of ISIS if that is their choice. That support would be limited to stopping arms and money getting to ISIS from the outside and giving them some advice if they ask.

      What we shouldn’t doing is sending in troops and arms and demanding that they be exactly like us which is what the US/UK and the right-wing are doing.
    • The Murphey 18.6

      5 February 2015 at 3:52 pm

      Q. How you feel about the attacks on Palistinains Wayne ?

      Q. Should we send support to help them fend of the Israeli genocide attacks ?

      Q. Should we deploy against Saudi Arabia to combat the beheading s carried out ?
      • Tracey 18.6.1

        5 February 2015 at 5:51 pm

        just like we wont send anyone to fight boko haram despite the atrocities. seems we will be turning the other cheek.
        • The Murphey 18.6.1.1

          5 February 2015 at 6:25 pm

          I believe that Wayne comes to this site because deep in the recess of his mind there is conflict in his ideological leanings

          Judgement day looms
    • Clemgeopin 18.7

      5 February 2015 at 6:10 pm

      @ Wayne:

      Wayne, isn’t it interesting that the right wing leaders like Key and that UK dude sweetly soften the soldiers and all of us about deploying in Iraq against the ISIS with the cool friendly cunning terms, ‘club’ and ‘family’, but I bet that none, if at all ANY, of the soldiers are from the wealthy RW families. Let the poor buggers die on our behalf because we, US and UK are family!

      Perhaps we should have compulsory military training/service for ALL youth, including the privileged kids of the wealthy, for a couple of years, so that the rich too can be deployed to fight on our behalf in some distant lands against faceless fanatics so that there is fairness, honesty and no bull shit or hypocrisy in those softening sweet words, ‘club’, ‘family’, ‘patriotism’, ‘sacrifice’, ‘service’ ‘duty’ etc.
    • Clemgeopin 18.8

      5 February 2015 at 7:58 pm

      @Wayne

      I am suspecting/thinking that there is ANOTHER motive for ISIS to be seen as ruthless in their ways and in trying to get very wide global publicity for their ‘mission’.

      ISIS is basically and mostly a faceless ideology/fundamental religious/sectarian based guerrilla outfit.

      Middle East is very complicated. How DO you fight ISIS? I think we should leave it to the countries/sects involved there to sort it out, unless you want, just like ISIS, a world wide religious war.

      THAT I think is the ISIS strategy to trap the west. The western leaders are foolishly trying to deal with this as a conventional war. It IS not! ISIS is enticing the west in and trying hard to entrap it in order to make it a global religious war/Armageddon.

      Our involvement will also help ISIS to recruit religious fanatics around the world in their tens of thousands. The western ‘family’ is falling into the trap by going there and the weapons manufacturers are happy and couldn’t care less. Will turn out to be a very long drawn VERY BIG mistake by the ‘family club’ and the outsiders that get involved there.

      What do you think?
19. Wayne 19

    5 February 2015 at 8:58 am

    Just to add to my previous comment. The appointment of Justice Goddard is an example of being “family.”

    And on deployments that have near 100% agreement within New Zealand, I presume the Sinai MFN, where we have been for 35 years, as part of the Egypt/Israel peace settlement (brokered by the US, which means the US asked us to contribute) would qualify.

    And if there ever is a Israel/ Palestine settlement, we will be asked again, being trusted by both sides. I actually thought this would happen between 2088 and 2011, with President Obama being able to repeat President Carter’s success. I advised the PM it was likely to be one of two major deployments we would be asked to contribute to, and that we should do so. But as we all know that is looking like a distant prospect.
    • Tracey 19.1

      5 February 2015 at 9:40 am

      RE Justice Goddard appointed from 150 candidates (presumably others from the “family” applied too). Or are you saying she got the job through a form on International nepotism and not on merit?

      If she completes her report and the Minister in charge in the Uk doesn’t like her findings will you be cool if her reputation is then publicly trashed?
      • Wayne 19.1.1

        5 February 2015 at 10:27 am

        She will have got it on merit. She has exactly the right skills.

        But just as we sometimes use Canadian judges (as opposed to French), so she will have automatically been high on the list, because of the knowledge that she will know how the English system ticks.
        • Draco T Bastard 19.1.1.1

          5 February 2015 at 11:16 am

          We don’t use the English system any more. Sure, we imported it wholesale in 1853 but since then it’s morphed quite a bit. Chances are that someone coming in from the outside wouldn’t have a friggen clue as to how our system ticked.
          • Wayne 19.1.1.1.1

            5 February 2015 at 11:50 am

            Draco

            We have obviously evolved our own way of doing things, but the similarities remain strong. I did a PhD in law in Cambridge, as have many other New Zealanders. British lawyers, Australian lawyers and Canadian lawyers understand each other well.The higher courts regularly cite each other nations cases.

            That is why the Brits know that Justice Goddard can do the Inquiry. And why New Zealand got a Canadian judge on the Bain case. And an Australian Judge on Supreme Court Judge Wilson’s issues.

            But in truth I am sure you know all this.
            • Draco T Bastard 19.1.1.1.1.1

              5 February 2015 at 2:04 pm

              And why New Zealand got a Canadian judge on the Bain case.

              Which our government then ignored saying, IIRC, that he just didn’t know what he was talking about in regards to NZ and how we did things. For the record, I think that Bain should get a large compensation from the government but that we shouldn’t of needed a Canadian judge to tell us that.

              But in truth I am sure you know all this.

              I’m aware of these things but have disagreements with it:

              1. Just because another country did something doesn’t make it right
              2. Laws between countries do, as a matter of fact, differ and so there won’t be a direct compatibility/comparison

              We can learn from other countries and they can learn from us but it still comes down to each country doing their own thing and fixing their own laws.
            • Tracey 19.1.1.1.1.2

              5 February 2015 at 3:32 pm

              Former Minister of Police and Justice turned out to think that Binnie was rubbish and not worthy of her time. Pretty scornful publicly in fact. Wouldn’t want to see Goddard treated that way but somehow I think it won’t happen to her.
        • Tracey 19.1.1.2

          5 February 2015 at 3:30 pm

          which isnt quite the same as the club/family notion. I agree she has it on merit and is a highly capable and regarded Judge.

          Similar reaction the Canadians had probably when Binnie was appointed but was then sadly very publicly trashed by a former colleague of yours who ought to have known better.
          • Colonial Rawshark 19.1.1.2.1

            5 February 2015 at 6:28 pm

            Having a NZ judge do an important inquiry for the sake of justice ain’t the same as sending the NZ Army on an unwinnable fools errand to train the untrainable Iraqi army.

            Who have been known to shoot dead their western trainers.
        • Anne 19.1.1.3

          5 February 2015 at 7:02 pm

          She will have got it on merit. She has exactly the right skills.

          Precisely. So that makes your “family” analogy a load of bollocks. Sure, her English speaking credentials and the fact we are about as far away in geographical terms as you could get… would have had a bearing on her appointment but we are no longer family. We are a sovereign nation that stands on its own two feet (thanks to David Lange in particular) and we make our own decisions. Well, we did… but sad to say we currently have a lily-livered government and prime minister who greases and fawns around the concept of the ‘mother-land’ and the ‘USA forever’- God forbid! Lets hope its going to change in 2017.
20. tricledrown 20

    5 February 2015 at 9:24 am

    An incestuous relationship Wayne!
    we need our own independent enquiry here in NZ Wayne.
    You being a former Defence Minister have to cowtow to the wishes of your masters.
    By pushing propaganda of the 5eyes!
21. Heather Grimwood 21

    5 February 2015 at 9:48 am

    To Wayne in particular…how arrogantly presumptious and ignorant to state that deployments have “near 100% agreement within new Zealand” ! I could go on at length but will spare readers.
    However I notice with grief the insidious softening up/social engineering that has been permeating our society. One example ( and of course we acknowledge the huge needless impact of it’s tragedies) is the hype spreading like wildfire over Gallipoli centenary. I remember the community spirit of WW2, and I fear in observing presently a mindless excitement prevailing somewhat (c.f. jingoism), which is quite a different thing. May we do nothing more than peacekeeping for the sake of our families and those who presently are being bombed by that other ‘club/family’ in greater numbers than they would otherwise be . In deep sincerity. Heather
    • Tracey 21.1

      5 February 2015 at 9:51 am

      It is certainly odd that this single loss is becoming so jolly important. Will we get the same when it is 100th anniversary of the appalling waste of lives that was The Somme?

      Great observation Heather, it does appear to have been used to soften up a harder military involvement line by our nation and Australia.
    • Wayne 21.2

      5 February 2015 at 10:44 am

      Heather,
      Why is it “arrogantly presumptuous and ignorant’ to state that the MFN has near 100% support? I have never heard of anyone being against it. I have presumed, based on the absence of opposition, that supporting an historically important peace agreement is seen by just about everyone as a good thing. Having spoken to both the Egyptian and Israeli political leaders, I know they certainly think so.

      And I would have thought supporting an Israel/Palestine peace agreement would be seen in the same light.

      Incidentally, as a member of the WW! Commemoration Panel, I agree with you, to some extent. There has been far less critical self examination than I would have expected, and which we have tried to encourage. It seems that collectively New Zealand society, by an osmotic process(?), has decided the best approach is to honour the sacrifice of so many lives, without getting into too deep a debate about causes and reasons, since that would then question the loss.

      The recent serious books on the war have swung away from the scholastic questioning that was so strong in the 1960’s and 1970’s. Instead they say we were on the right side, that the values were worth fighting for and that the Generals did the best they could.
      • Draco T Bastard 21.2.1

        5 February 2015 at 11:13 am

        Why is it “arrogantly presumptuous and ignorant’ to state that the MFN has near 100% support?

        Because I think you’ll find that it’s closer to near 100% ignorance rather than support. People just don’t know that we’ve deployed our troops there.

        I have presumed, based on the absence of opposition, that supporting an historically important peace agreement is seen by just about everyone as a good thing.

        That’s one hell of a presumption really. You should probably do something about finding out if people support it before declaring that they do.
        • Wayne 21.2.1.1

          5 February 2015 at 11:42 am

          Draco,

          I would agree that the MFN is hardly known by the general public. Even though it has been a continuous deployment of between 30 and 70 service people for around 35 years. New Zealand Generals have been in charge of the whole MFN on two occasions, most recently 2010 to 2013.

          No parliamentarian on the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Select Committee ever opposed it, and they all would have known about the MFN. I was on that Committee for several years. Keith Locke and Kennedy Graham were on it. They never opposed the MFN, and if they did, I would have expected them to have raised it, even if obliquely. The reason being is that it is seen as a classic peace support mission. So that is why I say it has near 100% support.
          • vto 21.2.1.1.1

            5 February 2015 at 11:53 am

            Wayne, the “family” is bullshit. Feel free to respond to my post above on the complete and total failure of the head of this supposed “family” to do anything remotely family-ish. The poms have in fact done exactly the opposite of what family would do.

            Also,
            You say it appeals to the right…….. did you understand what Eleanor Catton had to say recently? Because the reaction you correctly identify feeds directly into the Eleanor Catton Description Box.
          • framu 21.2.1.1.2

            5 February 2015 at 11:53 am

            ” I have presumed, based on the absence of opposition”

            “I would agree that the MFN is hardly known by the general public”

            its good that your no longer in parliament – jesus wayne! Do you even read what you write?
          • Draco T Bastard 21.2.1.1.3

            5 February 2015 at 1:30 pm

            No parliamentarian on the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Select Committee ever opposed it, and they all would have known about the MFN.

            All you really show is that politicians support it 100% which is not the same as the general public knowing about it and supporting it.

            You outline why Representative Democracy is not democracy and why it doesn’t work and yet fail to realise that.
22. freedom 22

    5 February 2015 at 12:01 pm

    we are family
23. Heather Grimwood 23

    5 February 2015 at 12:26 pm

    Wayne, I was answering in context of your initial piece of which I thought the second was a continuum. I certainly know about the middle east deployment but believe strongly that only strictly humanitarian support should be given anywhere. In the main topic of this column I firmly believe that training any faction perceived to be friendly ( read: necessarily bolstered to ensure access to resources or advantageous land for bases ) in the arts of war, is equivalent to being at war.
24. joe90 24

    5 February 2015 at 1:59 pm

    Such a nice family.
    /

    During the fiscal year that ended on September 30, 2014, U.S. Special Operations forces (SOF) deployed to 133 countries — roughly 70% of the nations on the planet — according to Lieutenant Colonel Robert Bockholt, a public affairs officer with U.S. Special Operations Command (SOCOM). This capped a three-year span in which the country’s most elite forces were active in more than 150 different countries around the world, conducting missions ranging from kill/capture night raids to training exercises. And this year could be a record-breaker. Only a day before the failed raid that ended Luke Somers life — just 66 days into fiscal 2015 — America’s most elite troops had already set foot in 105 nations, approximately 80% of 2014’s total.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nick-turse/black-ops_b_6507142.html
    • vto 24.1

      5 February 2015 at 2:06 pm

      can’t argue with facts
25. One Anonymous Bloke 25

    5 February 2015 at 5:09 pm

    We are family, I got all my Iraqis and me, look the narrative just changed…
    • Tracey 25.1

      5 February 2015 at 5:53 pm

      turning the other cheek to boko haram tho, aye john key?
    • The Murphey 25.2

      5 February 2015 at 5:53 pm

      Q. Had the pilot been launching bombing raids in what is a ‘war zone’ perhaps ?

      Too much to expect any balance from Key such as request to USA to stop the drone attacks killing thousands

      I do not believe a second that speech was unplanned
      • Colonial Rawshark 25.2.1

        5 February 2015 at 7:14 pm

        The Americans use incendiaries and thermobaric weapons on enemy combatants all the time. What the fuck do people think those warheads does to the victims. Yeah it burns them up alive. Anyone remember the photo of that little girl running while on fire from napalm in the Vietnam war.

        Thanks USA.
        • joe90 25.2.1.1

          5 February 2015 at 9:56 pm

          They’re pretty damn good at burning civilians..

          https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/04/burning-victims-death-still-common-practice/
        • The Murphey 25.2.1.2

          5 February 2015 at 11:02 pm

          If they keep on with the blatant double standards hypocrisy and mealy mouthed weasel words perhaps more folk will begin to see through it

          Q. Or are we passed the point of no return ?
26. Jim Hawthorne 26

    7 February 2015 at 9:22 am

    “Family” was a much more apt description. They are indeed a very close nit family. Much like the Sopranos and the God Father series pointed out. This is how it has operated for thousands of years. But change is afoot.
27. A Voter 27

    9 February 2015 at 12:40 am

    The Family is that something like The Mafia we got casinos and waste management and private prisons so I suppose The Family is a good cover term for it all
    But this is a new twist this Key bastard should just fuckoff to the UK and stay there so no more real NZers have to die for a bunch of ripoff arseholes from Europe who are just so far up the bulshit chain with this ISIL CRAP that the truth is sickening with every lie that is told everyday
    WE DONT NEED ANOTHER COLONIAL RULER PISSOFF KEY AND PAY YOUR BILL AS YOU LEAVE
    Last count its been backdated to 1987

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