Splits and divisions

57 comments on “Splits and divisions ”

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1. lukas 1

   7 January 2009 at 2:04 pm

   My guess is SP will use the phrase- “Word around the traps is” or something to that effect and not give a shred of evidence to back up anything he just said other than the margin that the MP won by.
2. Chris S 2

   7 January 2009 at 2:10 pm

   Who is Aaron Gilmore?
3. 8 & 4 3

   7 January 2009 at 2:23 pm

   National’s leadership has been flat-footed on the Israel/Hamas issue (biggest story of 2009 so far). Goff and Clark have been all over it.
4. sweeetdisorder 4

   7 January 2009 at 2:50 pm

   8 & 4

   Everyone is still on holiday, or in holiday mode. Nobody gives a toss about this at the moment.

   As for biggest story of 2009, umm, it is only the 7th of Jan for fecks sake!!!! Suggest you, take some time out and go to the beach. Come back in Feb when the year really does begin.
5. Whero 5

   7 January 2009 at 3:32 pm

   Wouldn’t be “Double Dipper” Sam, would it?
6. 8 & 4 6

   7 January 2009 at 4:04 pm

   sweeetdisorder – I would take some time out at the beach, but my Hawaiian beach front holiday home is being renovated.
7. Tigger 7

   7 January 2009 at 4:10 pm

   The Nats continued silence over the Hamas mess is further proof that they have no clue how to handle international stuff. And clearly that comes from the top. Key isn’t a leader and he’s certainly not PM material. He won’t go until there is someone to take his place of course…and at the moment there isn’t.

   Wait until the economic climate starts to bite, unemployment rises and petrol goes through the roof again…then there will really be a mess to watch and pressure on Key to step up or step down…

   As for the guessing game – which National Cabinet Minister has been backstabbing Paula Bennett every chance she gets both privately and semi-publicly? Come on National, Labour and the others have the knives out for you – it’s a bit soon to be turning on one another.
8. John BT 8

   7 January 2009 at 4:25 pm

   O dear, we have got at least another 9 years of this picking on that nice Mr Key and his friends. Well I suppose it is better than that other crowd who only know tax, tax, tax and we are still no better off.
   Also, I thought Double Dipper was called Shane or Steve.
9. TghtyRighty 9

   7 January 2009 at 4:26 pm

   “The Nats continued silence over the Hamas mess is further proof that they have no clue how to handle international stuff”

   Are you serious Tigger? having both Muslim and Jewish communities residing in New Zealand, and an independent foreign policy means that National, Key and McCully are getting it right. Refusal to condemn said actions, while calling for a ceasefire is rather practical.

   Just because National don’t go in guns blazing, condemning things, like Goff, Minto and Loony Locke do does not mean they have no clue. Rather it protects National from allegations of hypocrisy, as National would be doing exactly what the IDF are doing, running in, guns blazing, condemning things. Therefore, the actions of Goff, MInto and Loony Locke in condemning the IDF’s considered response to provocation, can be accused of hypocrisy.
10. Rex Widerstrom 10

    7 January 2009 at 4:39 pm

    1. I don’t care. Under the system we have, that’s what can happen. I’m all for debating changing it, but what’s the point of whining about a perfectly legitimate result (or, to put it another way: they won, you lost, eat that).

    2. A first term MP with ambitions to become PM?! Wow! Gosh! Golly! Errrr… perhaps you could show me one of the conniving little suckers from any party that doesn’t nurture that dream somewhere in their pinstriped breast?

    3. An MP with an independent mindset and you want to squash it. Yes, who is it Steve, so we can all praise him or her for a) breaking free of the hive mind required of their members by National and Labour; b) injecting some actual debate into the “debate” and c) (hopefully) arriving at a conclusion after talking with and listening to the people s/he represents?

    4. It’s just a tad early to be squawking “leadership spill”. The rule is usually to wait till the Leader has had a chance to make a balls-up on the first day of Parliament, then keep it up every fortnight or so. And it’s handy to have a “code phrase” you consider riotously humorous, like “barbecue at Phil’s place”.
11. Steve Pierson 11

    7 January 2009 at 5:17 pm

    Rex. I would praise him on 3. if he had crossed the floor on the issue or at least stated concerns. As it was, he is a coward.
12. Steve Pierson 12

    7 January 2009 at 5:19 pm

    lukas. unfortunately, the secret taper isn’t around everytime the tories let the truth slip.
13. lukas 13

    7 January 2009 at 5:57 pm

    This information is probably as reliable as whoever it was that whispered to you that Rodney was going to lose Epsom
14. Rex Widerstrom 14

    7 January 2009 at 6:36 pm

    Not every internal division in a party needs to be fought out in public. I heartily wish it could be, because then we’d see democracy at work. But whenever someone breaks free of the hive mind the idiots in the media play it up as “internal divisions” and “rifts” and label the MP(s) as “maverick(s)” and generally make a huge drama out of what should be quite an ordinary process so as to give themselves airtime or column space to pontificate on the likelihood of some sort of showdown.

    Hopefully this individual is also lobbying his fellow MPs on the issue and not just blabbing to supporters. Perhaps s/he’s trying to signal to the powerbrokers that unless they moderate their plans there’ll be dissent, but in such a way that both they and the powerbrokers can pretend no such thing occurred and thus save face. That’s often the way politics is done.

    There’s a myriad of possible reasons – including a lack of experience leaving the MP concerned not really knowing what s/he can do to change things, so just expressing their frustration to anyone who’ll listen.

    Rather than trying to shoot them down, perhaps you’d be better advised to be shoring them up? Certainly if I were working for a union I’d be getting alongside that person now, not taking pot shots in blogs.
15. Robinsod 15

    7 January 2009 at 6:46 pm

    Oh don’t worry Lucas – those wee tid-bits seem about right to me and I’ve got a strange knack for finding these sorts of things out…

    I’d also add provocative question five – “which senior government MP has done more than a little moonlighting over the last few years?”…
16. Robinsod 16

    7 January 2009 at 6:47 pm

    Do you work for a union Rwex?
17. mike 17

    7 January 2009 at 8:54 pm

    Up to the old dirty and desperate tricks eh SP.

    Since the direct smear on Key back-fired so spectacularly the pinko’s think divide and conquer work. Get a life FFS.

    On the middle east issue – here’s one from left field, tell the hamas terrorists to stop trying to kill innocent Israelis and the conflict will end – its not rocket science
18. Peter Burns 18

    7 January 2009 at 9:02 pm

    Wodinwod – what union represents the 357 CYFS kids killed by the state since year 2000?
    Welcome to the kiwi nightmare kids!!!
19. illuminatedtiger 19

    7 January 2009 at 9:17 pm

    Who let him out?
20. faded tigger 20

    7 January 2009 at 9:54 pm

    GRASPING AT STRAWS & CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

    The classic hallmarks of the losing team.
21. Rex Widerstrom 21

    7 January 2009 at 10:14 pm

    Robinsod: No, but I have in the past, handling media and government relations. If I heard a whiff of an MP with supposed leadership ambitions and a problem over government policy I’d be cultivating them. Perhaps much in the way a farmer cultivates lambs – and for the same reason – but cultivating nonetheless.
22. Peter Burns 22

    7 January 2009 at 10:27 pm

    I like the idea of cultivating MP’s for the meatworks, because they’re only good for blood and bone fertilizer to put on me Toms.
23. Tigger 23

    7 January 2009 at 11:23 pm

    TRighty – “Refusal to condemn said actions, while calling for a ceasefire is rather practical.”

    No, they’re fence-sitting while hundreds of Arabs die every day. Nuttin’ ‘practical’ about that, mate.

    The Nats are fence sitting to keep their dream date the USA happy. They’re not actually making a decision based on what they believe – or even being diplomatic – they are simply brown nosing.

    I’ve read people deride Labour’s stance and the Green’s position as simply spouting words. Words might be hollow given that words alone ain’t gonna stop this mess, but I’ll take conviction and taking a stand over pathetic fence sitting any day.

    This ‘don’t want to say anything that might make Uncle Sam unhappy’ position is the foreign policy we can expect till Key and his merry band of impotent wimps is gone. And it’s kind of pathetic.
24. Tigger 24

    7 January 2009 at 11:35 pm

    Hang on, just read McCully’s latest press release –
    “New Zealand is deeply worried by the mounting humanitarian crisis in Gaza as a result of the continuing Israeli ground offensive,” he said.

    Oh yes, I can see peace ringing out in the Middle East as a result of Murray McCully’s inspirational words of encouragement…
25. marco 25

    8 January 2009 at 2:01 am

    your kidding yourselves if you think Helen would not be fence sitting right now.
26. TghtyRighty 26

    8 January 2009 at 7:05 am

    Oh no hundreds of arab’s dying? most of whom carry assault rifles and are committed to throwing israel back into the med. sorry if i don’t get all anguished if a few innocent arab’s get caught in the crossfire, unfortunately it may be the price you pay when your state is run by democratically elected terrorists.

    Sitting on the fence to keep the USA happy? your pretty deluded, specially as National are calling for a ceasefire, which is a more productive form of involvement would you not agree?

    Oh, and I’m not, nor ever will be, your mate.
27. lprent 27

    8 January 2009 at 7:53 am

    TR: “unfortunately it may be the price you pay when your state is run by democratically elected terrorists.”

    Yeah the Israelis have had a problem with having elected both convicted and effective terrorists for the past 50 years. It explains a lot about the political culture of Israel and why this conflict has gone on for so long. People who think that power grows out of the barrel of a gun tend not to negotiate or compromise, even when it is in the best interests of whom they purport to represent.

    Of course when they do get someone that does start working for peace then they get shot or a shift in coalitions to prevent it from happening. Most of the time politics in Israel consists of leaders saying that “I’m more of a terrorist than the other guy”.

    These days they have built their very own Warsaw ghetto Gaza strip with walls, guards, and have embarked on the starvation of the inhabitants. Ultimately they hope that the inhabitants will starve to death embrace co-existance. Thereby getting rid of the problem.

    Anyway, just as the Israelis have learned from the peoples of eastern and central Europe in the pogroms and genocides of the 19th and 20th centuries, they are now passing the lessons on. Even their rationale and excuses for their barbarous actions sound like the ones emitting from Germany and Austria in the 30’s and 40’s.
28. TightyRighty 28

    8 January 2009 at 9:32 am

    good one lprent, i remember reading in every account of world war II, that it was preceeded by poland and frace and especially their jewish populations firing artillery and rockets into german civilian populations.
29. Tim Ellis 29

    8 January 2009 at 9:39 am

    Happy New Year to you LP. I understand the passion involved here, but comparing the Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto says to me that you haven’t visited either place. Conditions in the Gaza are pretty tough, but using hysteria like that isn’t helpful.
30. Lew 30

    8 January 2009 at 9:41 am

    TR: Do you think the Nazis’ actions would have been justifiable if the Poles had fired a few mortars before being invaded?

    Yes, I know it’s a pig-fucker argument, but just look what a stupid argument you’re trying to make. Not that comparing Gaza to the Holocaust is much better.

    L
31. Johnty Rhodes 31

    8 January 2009 at 9:54 am

    TR – can you give references to the Jews firing rockets into German cities? I have read many accounts of WW2, especially the Eastern Front but I cannot recall reading this. Least get some facts right.

    Also, the walls kept the suicide bombers out have they not, that is why they were built. At least the Germans were not economical with the truth as to the WG being set up.

    While we are on the Warsaw Ghetto, why did the Russians stop at the Vistula for 2 months while the fighting was still going on, after all they had just destroyed Army Group Center in Op. Bagration? Sounds like the Arab nations/UN to me.
32. TightyRighty 32

    8 January 2009 at 10:01 am

    Jonty,

    I think the facts you are looking for are filed under S for sarcasm.
33. Quoth the Raven 33

    8 January 2009 at 11:34 am

    Over at Lenin’s There is an interesting look at the numbers of dead. 550 Gazans out of 1.4 million killed over 11 days is proportionally worse than what happened in Darfur at the height of the killings. It was easy enough for people to look at what was going on in Darfur and call it genocide…
34. lprent 34

    8 January 2009 at 11:37 am

    TE: The stages of the formation of the Warsaw ghetto look disturbing like Gaza to me.

    Push a pile of people into an enclosed area with high density (makes it easy for disease to spread).

    Limit the availability of medicines (ditto).

    Reduce the food supply and steadily drop it (ditto)

    Use people as a workforce for a while.

    When ready use any provocation(s) to attack regardless of the proportionality.

    Ummm I’m having a real problem in distinguishing between 50 years of Israeli policy towards Gaza, and the first few years of German policy towards the Warsaw ghetto.

    Perhaps you’d clarify what I’ve missed?

    TR: So what you’re saying is that if the people stuffed in the Warsaw ghetto had rockets – then they shouldn’t have fired them in case they hurt some Germans?

    Explain to me exactly how this interesting concept in ethics operates? Just at present it sounds like you’re saying that the people stuffed in ovens should have been grateful?
35. outofbed 35

    8 January 2009 at 12:05 pm

    Energy Minister Gerry Brownlee could not be contacted last night.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/4812056a11.html

    Funny that
36. TightyRighty 36

    8 January 2009 at 12:17 pm

    No Lprent, you were saying that the reasoning for the legitimate attacks on gaza coming from Israel at the moment are similar to those coming out of austria/germany at pre-world war II. i think the reasonings coming out of israel right now are dealing with the specific threat that hamas poses to israels civilian population.

    Hama’s charter has a clause in it dedicated to the destruction of the state of israel. that is more like 1930’s germany than Israel is.

    And of course im advocating the Jews in the warsaw ghetto rising up, they did, with great impact but it was ultimately futile. however palestinians in gaza are in the ghetto not just because Israel quite rightly doens’t want a bunch hamas voting loonies within it’s border, but also because no other arab nation will take them in. despite the racial, language and cultural similarities.

    and really Lprent comparing the suffering of the most persecuted people on earth in possibly their darkest hour to what is happening in gaza is pretty pathetic and ludicrously dissproportianate.
37. lprent 37

    8 January 2009 at 12:37 pm

    TR: You mean that Israel did not want people that should have been their citizens to come back after 1948. It would have interfered in the state of Israel seixing their property.

    So you are in favour of either state sponsored ethnic cleansing or state sponsored property theft?

    BTW: Israel is actually responsible for the people of Gaza until they are taken up as citizens by some other state.
38. TightyRighty 38

    8 January 2009 at 12:44 pm

    Hyberbole and rhetoric, don’t forget Lprent that setting up the state of Israel was one of the first major acts of the united nations. the same UN that we are all supposed to bow down to now whenever it lifts one money wasting legs and passes wind.

    Israel shows more responsibility for Gaza than Hamas does. at least the israelis are attacking in defense, i don’t think the same could be said about hamas, who incidentally use their own people as suicide bombers against Israel.
39. Robinsod 39

    8 January 2009 at 12:46 pm

    I see the spelling of your handle has been changing TR – are you are relogging for sockpuppet effect? ‘Cos if you are it might pay to consider the fact that two stupid righties making ill-educated arguments doesn’t stop the arguments being ill-educated. No matter how hard to try to back yourself up…

    Oh and TR you stupid fuck – you don’t get to challenge the “disproportionate” nature of others arguments when you spout absurd shit like “sorry if i don’t get all anguished if a few innocent arab’s get caught in the crossfire” (which, by the way, has a misplaced apostrophe…)
40. TightyRighty 40

    8 January 2009 at 1:10 pm

    i did change my handle OD, thats ok, thats my choice and i won’t be logging on as my old one. so you can keep your sock analogy.

    you epitomise the problem with the left OD, you don’t like when other people don’t think your way and don’t act your way. in fact you dislike it so much that you mouth taunts that i bet you would’t dare if i was standing face to face with you.

    Nothing about me is ill-educated, i read widely and am a product of the public school system. I at least encourage discussion without telling other people what rights they do and do not have in discussion. if you think it’s absurd that i don’t cry in my bed at night hugging my red blankie because a few arab civilians were killed in cross fire, thats fine. But i am not a stupid fuck.
41. Steve Withers 41

    8 January 2009 at 1:13 pm

    RE: “legitimate attacks”? No. Understandable, maybe but “legitimate” – not even close. I include both sides.
42. lprent 42

    8 January 2009 at 1:14 pm

    TR: Israel has been refusing responsibility for its citizens since 1948. It prefers (like you) to mindlessly label them as ‘terrorists’ so it can disenfranchise them.
43. TightyRighty 43

    8 January 2009 at 1:18 pm

    correct me if im wrong, but there is a signifcant minority of Arabs still in Israel proper isn’t there? i don’t think they are all labelled terrorists and treated as such by the Israeli state.

    [lprent: Damn spotted this while moderating…. Oh well treat as a comment
    About 5-10% from memory.
    Someone will no doubt inform you of the many ways that Israeli Arabs are treated as second class citizens in the own country. Are you really that ignorant of Israel’s internal political structure ?]
44. randal 44

    8 January 2009 at 2:05 pm

    national is a party of straw men and will be gone in three years
45. Felix 45

    8 January 2009 at 2:31 pm

    Hi ‘sod,

    TightyWhitey is one of the many goons who changed their handle in order to avoid the inevitable conflict between their pre-election support of National Party promises and their post-election support of National Party actions.

    Today’s display of his complete ignorance of middle-eastern history is just a holiday program really.
46. Robinsod 46

    8 January 2009 at 4:10 pm

    TR – I’d certainly say such things to your face you wee dick. It’s not that you think differently from me that makes me think you’re a stupid fuck but the fact that you say suck stupid fucking things. As for your whining like a little girl about me telling you what rights you have in conversation? Suck it up – error has no rights. And you are in error. Consistently and without excuse…
47. Pascal's bookie 47

    8 January 2009 at 4:12 pm

    Tighty, on account of how you are not a stupid fuck, perhaps you could explain how the current IDF operation is supposed to achieve it’s stated objective of halting rocket attacks. Israel has stated that they have no intention of permanent reoccupation so if that isn’t the strategy, then what is?

    Seems to me at least, that the thinking is along the lines of “those Palestinians need to be taught a lesson, we’ll hit them hard and then they’ll be too scared to fire rockets”. But that seems really fucking stupid. Gaza has been hit hard before, and the hitting hard thing has never really worked. Indeed those unintended consequences often blowback all over the place. Often in cafeterias and buses. Not excusing it btw. Just saying what is. What ‘ought’ is of less interest to me. Western liberal notions of ‘ought’ don’t count for much in the middle east it seems to me. So it’s pointless discussing it that way.

    So if the action is related to the specific threat of the rockets as you claim, then how is it supposed to work, specifically?

    As you enjoy reading widely, I hope you find the following link thought provoking, I’d appreciate your thoughts as a non stupid fuck. This quote touches on some of that “throwing rivals off of buildings” thing you mentioned. Awful business, but Islamist underground politics under occupation and in police states throughout the middle east is a tough line of work.

    Hamas enjoys a special place in al-Qaeda’s enemies list. Al-Qaeda has long been desperate for a foothold in Palestine, but has been largely kept out because Hamas has the place locked. Jihadist forums bear a deep grudge over Hamas’s crackdown on various jihadist groups which have tried to set up shop there (Jaysh al-Islam, et al). In March 2006, Zawahiri denounced Hamas’s electoral victory and called on them to reject the democratic trap and pursue armed struggle. In February 2007 he attacked the Mecca Agreement between Fatah and Hamas, and in March declared that Hamas had “surrendered most of Palestine to the Jews, sold the Palestinian issue, and sold shari’a in order to retain leadership of the Palestinian government.” In June 2007 he called on Hamas to “correct your path.” Just last week, the leading Jordanian jihadist theoretician Abu Mohammed al-Maqdisi (thanks to Will McCants) complained that “Hamas is misleading Muslims with its glittering slogans, which blind people to their wayward goals and strategies, leading them down the path of criminals… [and] Hamas started the bloodshed in Gaza several weeks ago when it killed members of the Army of Islam organization.”

    From al-Qaeda’s perspective, therefore, Israel’s assault on Gaza is an unmitigated blessing. The images flooding the Arab and world media have already discredited moderates, fueled outrage, and pushed the center of political gravity towards more hard-line and radical positions. As in past crises, Islamists of all stripes are outbidding each other, competing to “lead” the popular outrage, while “moderates” are silent or jumping on the bandwagon. Governments are under pressure, most people are glued to al-Jazeera’s coverage (and, from what anyone can tell, ignoring stations that don’t offer similar coverage), the internet is flooded with horrifying images, and people are angry and mobilized against Israel, the United States, and their own governments. That’s the kind of world al-Qaeda likes to see.

    http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com/node/14962
48. paul the sour 48

    8 January 2009 at 6:56 pm

    God, yes. Poland’s Jews were, after all, being armed in secret by Britain and using those weapons to kill and maim innocent Nazis and their families. That’s why Israelis are so suspicious whenever a rocket lands in their yards, fired by a Hamas ghetto-inhabitant. They see these trivial incidents through the lens of their own historical crimes.

    “Embarked on the starvation of the inhabitants” – yes, those relief convoys the Israelis sent through were packed with zero nutrient goods, items that trick your body into thinking you’re eating food while you starve to death. Worse than smallpox blankets, that. And in the market during the cease fire, all those shoppers were actually getting more of the same mock-food. And the UN warehouses passing wares out by the wheelbarrow? Almost all of that was GM rice (and we know what THAT does to the consumer).

    Jews fighting back. Horror.
49. Felix 49

    8 January 2009 at 7:44 pm

    paul you’re absolutely right. They should be grateful. They wouldn’t survive in the wild so they’ve been well looked after innit. They all look like terrorists anyway. Have to break a few eggs an that eh?
50. Quoth the Raven 50

    8 January 2009 at 8:09 pm

    TR – Don’t forget the nomadic Bedouin people forced to live sedentary lives in ghettos in Israel. The state hardly bothering to provide them with basics such as water and healthcare all in their own land which they aren’t allowed to move around in anymore.
51. Bill 51

    8 January 2009 at 8:51 pm

    Strikes me that a debate within the confines of the left about Gaza would be interesting and while probably confrontational would be educational. That the right have NOTHING coherent to say, while not entirely unexpected is, IMO deeply, deeply sad.

    All I’m learning from the various comments from the right is how fathomless their pit of intellectual and moral bankruptcy is.
52. lukas 52

    8 January 2009 at 9:04 pm

    Bill… have you read a single post by Randal, Rave or Trave… sure the right have Dad, but…flip.
53. Felix 53

    8 January 2009 at 9:51 pm

    Past your bedtime lukey. Chop chop.

    Or you could refute Bill’s statement by pointing to a comment on this thread from a rightie who has ANY understanding of middle eastern affairs or history and has added ANYTHING of value to the discussion.

    Night then.
54. Peter Burns 54

    8 January 2009 at 9:53 pm

    dad is banned from here lukas because big bruv said so.
    hi big bruv, your intense hatred is sooooooooooooooooooooo obvious creepster.
    got a real name big blouse?
55. Stever 55

    9 January 2009 at 8:40 am

    One sad but, I suppose, not surprising result of all this is the signs of a revival of extreme reactions by people in “the West”, as reported here.
56. randal 56

    9 January 2009 at 12:49 pm

    peter burns
    he’s actualy a announcer for radio spud
    thats his deep cover
57. Dr.Strangelove 57

    9 January 2009 at 4:08 pm

    Is outofbed’s post meant to suggest that Gerry Brownlee is the new Pretender ?

    If not, then let’s name names .. John Key is missing in action which leaves Murray McCully.

    Cheers.

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