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Steven Joyce – liar or fool?

Written By: - Date published: 7:01 am, September 5th, 2017 - 52 comments
Categories: accountability, economy, election 2017, labour, same old national, Steven Joyce - Tags: , , , , ,

Steven Joyce’s claim that there is a $11.7bn “hole” in Labours’ fiscal plan has been soundly refuted by multiple economists and analysts.

Brian Fallow:

‘Robertson’s right, Joyce is wrong’

Economics columnist Brian Fallow says Labour has reallocated some money, but there’s no missing money as National claims.

Bernard Hickey:

Analysis: There is no hole in Labour’s fiscal plan

The replays show Robertson is right about the operating balances being correctly calculated. Labour has cumulated the operating allowance figures and has included the usual inflation, just in a different place above the line.

Joyce later told me he accepted what Robertson said about the inflation that was usually in the operating allowance line actually being ‘above the line’ in the ‘Delivering Modern health and education system’ lines. …

BERL:

Economist behind Labour’s fiscal plan slams National’s claims

BERL executive director Dr Ganesh Nana has spoken out against claims from the National Party there is a “hole” in Labour’s fiscal plan.

Labour commissioned BERL to do an independent audit of its fiscal plan, which National campaign manager and finance spokesman Steven Joyce claimed had an $11.7 billion “hole”.

Labour finance spokesperson Grant Roberston refuted the allegations and said it was “a desperate act from a flailing Finance Minister”.

Keith Ng (read this one for very clever graphs showing the nature of Joyce’s error):

Is there really an $11 billion hole in Labour’s election plan?

Ultimately, there is no missing money. The money is accounted for. I suspect there’s some shenanigans around why Labour did it this way (to make the health/education/etc lines look bigger, basically), but it’s literally a question of whether you put the numbers on row 239 or row 228 in the spreadsheet.

Newshub:

Leaders Debate: Fact checking the leaders

Essentially Labour and its independent financial advisor BERL say National has exploited a difference in accounting methodology to misrepresent its figures. And several independent commentators are in agreement.

BERL executive director Ganesh Nana issued a statement disputing that there were errors: “The alleged ‘hole’ is a fiction arising from a disagreement over definitions.”

In The Spinoff, data expert Keith Ng said the “money was accounted for” and that Labour had recorded the missing money behind individual line items.

Writing for Newsroom, Bernard Hickey said “there is no hole in Labour’s fiscal plan”.

The verdict: There is no $11.7b hole in Labour’s fiscal budget, at least as far as we can tell

Those are the analysts saying that Joyce is wrong.

Is there anyone (apart from the puppet “Taxpayers Union” parroting the mistake) saying that Joyce is right?

Anyone?

Either Steven Joyce was deliberately spreading disinformation, in which case he is a liar, or he is incapable of reading a fiscal plan, in which case is a fool (for a Finance minister). Take your pick.

Naturally Bill English doubled down on this cynical rubbish during the debate. No wonder he couldn’t give a straight answer on not lying in politics.

52 comments on “Steven Joyce – liar or fool? ”

  1. Barfly 1

    Steven Joyce – liar or fool?

    Liar

  2. Ed 2

    He’s no fool. He knows mud sticks and with a biased media to support the National propaganda machine, the voices of economists will be muted.
    After all Stephen Joyce knows more than they do.
    Therefore if he isn’t a fool, what does that leave?

    • bwaghorn 2.1

      standard nat tactic tell a big lie loudly then back away quietly and their moron followers will only remember the big lie as fact

  3. Antoine 3

    Both?

  4. Incognito 4

    It really doesn’t matter how big the ‘hole’ is according to Mr Joyce. What matters is that he spreads the idea that Labour cannot be trusted with Taxpayers’ money because Labour is incompetent and/or not ready to govern and because Labour cannot be trusted full-stop. The polls have kinda neutralised many of the other usual attack lines of National.

    • reason 4.1

      It is National who are the weak ones on tax and budget constraints …. Bill English is the gate keeper for Johnny Made-offs work ….. both share Merrill Lynch ethics ….

      “They have been willing instead to see their own institutions make money out of the proceeds and to hell with the human misery caused back where the thieves are thieving.” … http://www.sarawakreport.org/2017/07/australia-and-new-zealand-slide-from-their-responsibilities-over-mass-corruption-and-malaysia/

      Through their actions NZ is aiding and abetting corruption overseas ….. And allowing our own Government revenues to be shorted … … helping the grubby jurisdiction game …. which only the rich get to play….

      Show us the money ??? …. it’s been taken off shore … In accountants ‘tax vehicles’

      Inequality is engineered …… by bankers like John Key,…. Lawyers like his trust bunny one …. and Accountants like John Shewan … All working in organisations like PwC KPMG, Mossack Fonnsenka, ANZ, BNZ, Deutch Baank Bank of America etc etc etc … http://www.corp-research.org/bank-of-america http://www.corpresearch.org/deutsche-bank

      Through Lobbying, donations, bribes and old boys networks ……Loopholes and bad laws are purposely passed …. for the rich to exploit.

      Ask yourself … why is Judith Collins in Parliament …. who is she working for ?

      “Those who can afford to pay the most, the biggest companies in the world, pay proportionately the least tax.”….

      Our Nact Governments tax haven building,…offends decent people and works against the interests of all honest workers…. it was and still is helped along by our dirty media … who do a good job in keeping citizens non-informed…..Quote : “In fact, what is even better news is that this is receiving little publicity in New Zealand – which means there is a higher likelihood the PM will nudge it through without too much meddling from the country’s left wing camp”

      But The Aussies are starting to do something about their corporate cheats ….

      Labour should take note … As the Same names use the same methods here…

      https://www.michaelwest.com.au/goldman-sachs-news-corp-tax-lowdown-as-government-claims-battle-is-won/ Were it not for increasing community awareness of multinational tax avoidance – the world’s biggest rort – and rising concern over tax fairness, things would be worse. So the positive perspective is that, yes, inroads are being made ´….

      …“It was a superb win for the the Australian Tax Office against Chevron in the Federal Court last week but there is something everyone is missing, something which will turn the art of tax avoidance on its head; a game-changer for multinationals”. …………… “Chevron’s sham tax structures were first brought to light in 2015 in a report by former multinational oil company executive Mike Hibbins. Hibbins found that Chevron’s structure of “artificially created interest payments” was designed not merely to reduce tax but to make a profit from the Tax Office. https://www.michaelwest.com.au/game-changer-for-oil-giants-and-multinational-tax-
      avoiders/

      “American Express is the archetypal multinational tax avoider. It conducts “related party transactions” with other Amex entities in a tax haven. Via these transactions, profits are siphoned offshore before tax can be paid……It produces very low profits, or losses, in Australia.” https://www.michaelwest.com.au/how-amex-paid-no-tax-in-nine-years-on-10-billion/

      Cleaning up our blue rot corruption may also be a vital component in fixing our housing affordability crisis … as well as helping honest citizens in other countries … Money Laundering New Zealand ‘shell companies send stolen money all over the world. http://www.sarawakreport.org/2017/07/pushing-prices-up-and-people-out-how-malaysian-money-is-causing-anger-in-london/

  5. Stuart Munro 5

    Our trolls will now be repeating ’11 billion dollar hole’ as they did ‘structural decade of deficits’ ad nauseam. He’s a liar and a fool – misgovernance is a pretty 3rd rate political strategy – but many that support him are only fools.

  6. peterh 6

    He has to be a fool anyone who spend over $1600 on a taxi in Sydney for one day does not know how to spend taxpayers money

  7. mickysavage 7

    Good post r0b and perfectly captured. The money is in Labour’s budget and has been accounted for. All experts confirm this. Either Joyce and English are fools or liars. There is no other possibility.

    And here is the video on the issue from last night’s debate …

    • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1

      English is a fool to tell lies about sums. Even my mate who owns a calculator can do them.

      • tracey 7.1.1

        When it has worked since late 2007 and 47% of the voting electorate (+Act’s .4%), and most of the media haven’t cared, why would you stop?

  8. Bearded Git 8

    Good post r0b….Ganesh very convincing on Morning Report a few minutes ago saying that there is no hole in Labour’s accounts, in fact he said Labour’s are more “honest and transparent” in that they specify where money would be spent compared with National’s that doesn’t.

    It will be so good to see the back of Joyce as a minister. Voting starts in 6 days.

  9. One Anonymous Bloke 9

    Patrick Gower and Newshub let everyone down. They had enough time to talk to Ganesh Nana, and instead they let Bill English shit all over BERL’s credibility, rather than putting a blowtorch on him for endorsing Joyce’s lies.

    • tc 9.1

      They didn’t let their owners and media minders down, you mistakenly think they serve the public …good poodle paddy.

      A progressive govt needs to sort out the media landscape if it wants a fair go or this will continue and get worse once nact are gone from govt.

      Gut tvnz, create a public broadcaster styled tv1 using the rest to fund it. Legislate it in place like the abc act in oz does.

      Its obvious youre dicking with it when its got its own act you have to alter. Take note of what turdbulls done and legislate against that as a fine start.

      We need to start creating quality kiwi dramas, kids, comedies etc again alongside a robust stand alone news operation.

      Tvnz used to be good at it until it went SOE on us.

  10. Pete 10

    Is the question an either/or or can we pick both?

  11. Ross 11

    Being the honourable bloke he is Joyce will issue a public apology to Labour today which will be the lead story on all mainstream news bulletins. 🙂

  12. Robert Guyton 12

    Dishonest, deliberately deceptive and desperate (and other “d” words).

    • And here’s an ‘M’ word , – manipulator.

      John Campbell didn’t leave TV3 because he woke up one day and said ‘I’m bored of being a front man ‘…

      There’s a lot more to Stephen Joyce the ‘minister for everything ‘ than meets the eye.

      • tracey 12.1.1

        I have long called him Karl Rove.

        “Karl Rove was often called “Bush’s Brain” for his political genius in directing George W. Bush’s successful campaigns for governor of Texas and president of the United States.”

  13. Kaplan 13

    A liar for the false analysis and a fool for thinking it would work.

    • tc 13.1

      Worked before and scaremongering is all they’ve got as their gutting and destruction is too blatant for soft swinging voters to ignore this time.

  14. silvertuatara 14

    Gower, in asking the question of English about Joyce’s underhanded and completely untrue attack on Labour’s numbers, helped propagate the misinformation spread late in the piece in National’s predetermined strategy to lie publicly in a smear campaign that had no valid basis, is complicit with spreading the incorrect information.

    Gower should front foot an apology to the NZ Taxpayers, on behalf of his sloppy moderating , and on behalf of his network. Joyce’s scaremongering had already been publicly discounted well before the debate went to air by the very persons and organisations that Jacinda referred to in her response.

    In Gower asking such question of English, makes a mockery of what accurate and ethical journalism should be about. There is no doubt that the MSM should today be calling for both Joyces, English’s and Gower’s public apologies on this specific matter. I will however not be holding my breath on this matter…..If Matthew Hooton can be given National broadcasting space in the guise of providing an accurate summation of the debate, to only champion English’s and Nationals cause…..there is little hope at this stage for the media operation whom held last night’s second debate to conduct an impartial debate least apologise for placing English in a position to be able to lie, on matters that had already been clarified publicly as being made up by National’s Stephen Joyce, in true Dirty Politics style.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 14.1

      Yep.

      “First question to Jacinda Ardern: today National falsely claimed there’s an $11bn hole in your accounts. What standard of honesty will you require from yourself and your cabinet ministers?”

      Tv3 and Gower owe BERL an apology at the very least.

      • silvertuatara 14.1.1

        You have to ask yourself why then,when this news article by Tony Wright titled Leaders Debate: Fact checking the leaders released on 4/9/17 following the leaders debate

        http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/09/leaders-debate-fact-checking-the-leaders.html

        in relation to Stephen Joyce’s/National incorrectly claiming that Labour is missing $11.7b from its fiscal budget concluded with the following assessment/verdict: There is no $11.7b hole in Labour’s fiscal budget, at least as far as we can tell

        that Newshub still have this news article by Anna Bracewell-Worrall titled Leaders debate: Ardern and English clash over Budget ‘black hole’

        http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/09/leaders-debate-ardern-and-english-clash-over-budget-black-hole.html

        which does not make it clear that Joyce’s an English’s attacks were unfounded, inaccurate and should be seen as Jacinda called English and National out for as just plain “scaremongering” which in my mind is both deceitful and clearly steeped in the National Party lying in a desperate attempt to stay in power way past their expiry date.

        NewsHub, should either immediately retract/remove Anna Bracewell-Worrall’s video and piece, or alternatively place a prominent disclaimer within the body of the article at both the beginning and the end noting that Joyce, English and National are wrong in asserting that there was over an 11 billion shortfall in Labour’s fiscal package.

  15. mary_a 15

    “Steven Joyce – Liar or fool?”

    Both apply to mischief making Herr Joyce, because Natz is sinking fast into the odious, foul swamp it created and he knows it! So it’s desperate measures for desperate times now for Natz.

  16. greywarshark 16

    Bill English is often said to be wooden in his speech. He actually could be compared to be a wall to bounce statements from. That is the reason why he would repeat something untrue that Joyless said. English is a handy squash court for bouncing the fibs of National off for never-ending return shots. A small arena, enclosed, and following rigid rules that apply to that particular game, which is separate from the outside activities of the majority of NZs.

    • tracey 16.1

      There is the other lie too. That 50,000 children will be lifted out of poverty by National’s current Families package. To date they have not acknowledged poverty exists, refuse to measure it and have no poverty policy. Talk about black holes.

    • dukeofurl 16.2

      English has decided to give up the wooden man persona, and after more acting

      lessons than you need to get a role on Shortland St, hes come out waving his arms

      – just like the wooden marionette Pinocchio

  17. One Two 17

    The real questions regarding all things fiscal and monetary are obfuscated by on every sides

    Singling out any of the ‘liars’ for special attention, is trite

    Pressure needs to raised through the open discourse about budgets et al..

    Until then, they’re all liars!

    • tracey 17.1

      At least Labour wrote theirs down and got in independently analysesd. PREFU has fucked up Bill several times in this election now… and they ar ehis numbers.

  18. ianmac 18

    A desperate fool and liar. HE can see the writing on the wall and tries an all or nothing throw. But if the Minister of Finance doesn’t understand how $11 billion is allocated he should not be MOF and what does that say about the PM ex MOF?

  19. Darth smith 19

    He’s a liar no doutime there desperate all they have after 9 years is lies

  20. savenz 20

    Didn’t Steven Joyce fail economics at university?

    From Wiki about Joyce,

    “He helped create Auckland Transport as a council-controlled organisation for Auckland. Joyce stated that “Auckland will need a good agency focused on delivering the projects that have been agreed by council” and noting that Council had a number of ways of ensuring that the entity was accountable.[13]”

    “In May 2013, he signed a deal with casino Skycity Auckland, allowing it to install an additional 230 pokie machines and 40 new gambling tables, in exchange for building a $402 million convention centre.”

    Based on these disasters in his track record of accountability and deals for the tax payer and society, I would label Joyce as both a liar and a fool.

  21. Tricledrown 21

    Loose you’re self Eminem.
    Pretty legal Dildo Joyce claims

  22. ianmac 22

    A bit peculiar but I think Joyce is shifting ground and apparently saying the economists were misunderstanding what he was saying. Huh?

    “Sep 5, 2017 1:36 PM
    Stacey Kirk
    Hello all,
    I’m in our Auckland office for a bit before I check into the Jacinda Ardern camp at her next engagement this afternoon.
    But I did just tune into our livestream of Steven Joyce subtly shifting his stance on Labour’s figures, though not backing down that they leave no money for anything other than health and education.
    The crux of it is that Joyce is standing by the $11.7b hole – but he doesn’t mean that money is necessarily missing from Labour’s plan, rather, once the money goes to education and health – there’s no room for anything else.
    It may be budgeted, says Joyce. The numbers may add up, but there is no cumulative funding allocated for things like police wages, teachers wages, DOC operations and science funding.
    Joyce argued that he was misquoted by a few economists, who misinterpreted what he was presenting.
    He’s challenging Labour finance spokesman Grant Robertson to simply point out where Labour has budgeted for police wages, and general operating expenses like that.
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96496294/live-on-the-campaign-trail–tuesday
    A

  23. NZJester 23

    National have always lied about the countries finances. The first big lie of the current National Government was when they took over the treasury from the previous Labour Government. They claimed the country was in terrible shape financially and borrowed money to give tax cuts. However, the books they actually inherited from Labour were balanced and our debt paid off with sufficient income to support the running of this country. Something Nation immediately went about screwing up. They then said they would not increase taxes and claimed G.S.T. was not a tax when they increased it (Even though the T stands for tax) to support their tax cuts for the rich. The extra money in the average workers pocket from the drop in P.A.Y.E. was lost and more to the higher prices of everyday essential good. The poor paid for the rich to get a tax break over that tax swap.

  24. Ms Fargo 24

    Fake news, or a liar or a fool?…

  25. B__ 25

    He is a fool, whether or not he is a liar. This is his arithmetic version of “pretty legal”. Thus, we have a Deputy PM and Minister of Police who does not understand human rights, and a Finance Minister who is semi-numerate. Bill English debated well, and there is merit in his ideas on evidence-based policy and the “moral and fiscal failure” of our prisons, amongst others. If he had the good sense to change his allegiance, there could even be a place for him in the next government.

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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Community launch marks next step in addressing racism in education
    The launch of Te Hurihanganui in Porirua today is another important milestone in the work needed to address racism in the education system and improve outcomes for Māori learners and their whānau, Associate Education Minister Kelvin Davis says. Budget 2019 included $42 million over three years to put Te Hurihanganui ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Government to consider recommendations on DNA use in criminal investigations
    The Minister of Justice has received the Law Commission’s recommending changes to the law governing the way DNA is used in criminal investigations. The report, called The Use of DNA in Criminal Investigations – Te Whahamahi I te Ira Tangata I ngā Mātai Taihara, recommends new legislation to address how ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Speech to Wakatū Nelson regional hui on trade
    First, I want to express my thanks to Te Taumata for this hui and for all the fantastic work you are doing for Māori in the trade space. In the short time that you’ve been operating you’ve already contributed an enormous amount to the conversation, and developed impressive networks.  I ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Speech to Primary Industries Summit
    Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today about the significant contribution the food and fibres sector makes to New Zealand and how this Government is supporting that effort. I’d like to start by acknowledging our co-Chairs, Terry Copeland and Mavis Mullins, my colleague, Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Fast track referrals will speed up recovery and boost jobs and home building
    The Government is taking action to increase jobs, speed up the economic recovery and build houses by putting three more projects through its fast track approval process. “It’s great to see that the fast-track consenting process is working. Today we have referred a mix of potential projects that, if approved, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Papakāinga provides critically needed homes in Hastings
    A papakāinga opened today by the Minister for Māori Development the Hon Willie Jackson will provide whānau with much needed affordable rental homes in Hastings. The four home papakāinga in Waiōhiki is the first project to be completed under the ‘Hastings Place Based’ initiative. This initiative is a Government, Hastings ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • New Zealand ready to host APEC virtually
    Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern took over the leadership of APEC earlier today, when she joined leaders from the 21 APEC economies virtually for the forum’s final 2020 meeting. “We look forward to hosting a fully virtual APEC 2021 next year. While this isn’t an in-person meeting, it will be one ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Revival of Māori Horticulturists
    The rapid revival of Māori horticulture was unmistakeable at this year’s Ahuwhenua Trophy Awards, with 2020 marking the first time this iconic Māori farming event was dedicated to horticulture enterprises. Congratulating finalists at the Awards, Māori Development Minister Willie Jackson said growing large-scale māra kai is part of Māori DNA. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Emergency benefit to help temporary visa holders
    From 1 December, people on temporary work, student or visitor visas who can’t return home and or support themselves may get an Emergency Benefit from the Ministry of Social Development, Social Development and Employment Minister Carmel Sepuloni announced today. Previously, temporary visa holders in hardship because of COVID-19 have had ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • School sustainability projects to help boost regional economies
    Forty one schools from the Far North to Southland will receive funding for projects that will reduce schools’ emissions and save them money, Education Minister Chris Hipkins announced today. This is the second round of the Sustainability Contestable Fund, and work will begin immediately. The first round announced in April ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Farmer-led projects to improve water health in Canterbury and Otago
    More than $6 million will be spent on helping farmers improve the health of rivers, wetlands, and habitat biodiversity in Canterbury and Otago, as well as improving long-term land management practices, says Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor. Four farmer-led catchment group Jobs for Nature projects have between allocated between $176,000 and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago