- Date published:
12:40 pm, October 20th, 2013 - 333 comments
Categories: labour - Tags:
Hi Standardistas. As a proponent of democratic socialism who is influenced by resilient systems thinking, I often find financial sites like marketwatch.com highly informative.
On the evening of October 10, the front page stories on marketwatch.com included how NZ Government debt was a superior investment to US Treasuries; how 41% of the world’s wealth was owned by the top 0.7%; and how the Swiss were about to vote in a referendum to give their citizens an “Unconditional Basic Income” (UBI) set at a remarkable US$34,000 p.a. That’s serious democracy in a nation which has long figured out its economic niche in the world.
In comparison, the John Key Government is covered with a Wall St stench of plutocracy. The favouring of anti-democratic goals, blatant corporate welfare and the boringly predictable transfer of public wealth to the top 5% is a repeat of the same globalised neoliberal recipe of the last 30 years. Regrettably, the lack of evolution in rentier capitalist thinking over the decades cannot be considered any surprise.
Strategically however, a small country like ours needs friends, financing, and a high value economy in order to advance a broad agenda of social justice, community resiliency and economic equality. These are critical ingredients that the first Labour/Greens government must get right if it is to accomplish anything of lasting significance. Bill Sutch knew this well, linking the power of the private sector with government into a nationwide project to build social and economic security for all New Zealanders. That multi-decades project ended sadly in 1984, with the Roger Douglas Labour Government. It’s now time to relaunch New Zealand’s real economic future.
So what should a Labour led Government offer NZ instead? A few suggestions: it should closely partner with specific sectors and enterprises to forward a vision of a diverse and resilient sovereign democracy. Mining and exploration should continue, but only given rigorous conditions and criteria in accordance with international best practice. Relevant ownership structures and regulation must create maximum value and minimum risk for our country. We also need to further develop and advantage our nation’s promising food, manufacturing and high tech export industries, while asking more of them in the nationwide interest. Even so, our remaining runway to a renewables powered future is short, perhaps just 25 years. We therefore have to urgently turn our minds to innovative, job rich, long-term economic projects. For instance, New Zealand is one of a few advanced nations which stands a chance of developing a fully-renewables powered transportation network, one which can keep our economy on the move post-fossil fuels.
Here are eight more ‘big picture’ concepts for the first Labour/Greens government to apply:
Aotearoa faces several civilisation and sovereignty impacting “mega-trends” (to borrow a David Cunliffe phrase). We must get ahead of these mega-trends, before they overrun us. The good news: a small, smart, socially interconnected nation like New Zealand is well placed to do exactly that. We can no longer justify being stuck in third gear, passively accepting the morale and wealth destroying output gap long justified by neoliberal contrivances and highly paid bank economists. A hard hitting combination of financial sector buy-in, private sector innovation, democratic civic organisation and public sector leadership is what it will take to move Aotearoa ahead. It is long past time to say to voters loud and clear: yes, there are real alternatives.
(I will be at the upcoming Labour Party Conference in Christchurch as part of the Dunedin North delegation. If you are coming along I look forward to seeing you there, sharing a beer or three, and talking through exciting plans for 2014).
By Tat Loo a.k.a. “Colonial Viper”
I stood as the Labour candidate for Clutha-Southland against Bill English in 2011. This year I was an unsuccessful first-time candidate in the Dunedin City Council elections (Central Ward), placing 21st out of 35 candidates. I have previously commented under the pseudonym “Colonial Viper” (CV) I am grateful for the political economic and rhetorical education that I have gained while interacting with the full spectrum of Standardistas. I speak for and represent only myself on The Standard.
Update: All links now working.
“mega-trends” – Yes, I would like to hear more discussed about these and the state [pun] of preparedness and preparation for them. Something other than TINA (there is no alternative) and a lot more about TARAs (there are real alternatives).
Looking forward to reading more pieces from you, Tat!
Love your thinking CV. Thank you.
Hi Mr Nald 🙂
You are welcome.
So CV unmasks himself…
Pleased to meet you Tat.
I hope that we see more of you in the future, under the NZLP banner, of course (a senior cabinet post in the centennial 2035 Labour government, that celebrates 21 years in power, in contrast to a beaten and bedgraggled National party, still clinging to the 30 year “experiment” that was ditched after Labour and the Greens came to power in 2014 and began their record 7 terms in power?)..
Thanks muchly millsy 🙂
Also I’m trying to get the links in the post sorted out, there’s been a random character appended to the end of the URLs so they will work if you remove it…
Need to fix up your Gravatar.
Done. Cheers Lanth.
Well done Tat, although I have known this for a while 😀
Thanks MS. Met you at Congress in 2011 iirc? Nothing much escapes your attention, maaaate!
Is the pope a catholic??
Excellent stuff. In my time in the New Zealand Labour Party (I rejoined last year, around the time of a possible leadership vote) I’ve often found that members and candidates tend to duck the hard economic questions and thus cede the debating ground to the right, without a fight. With this post above you’ve shown yourself to be one of the few Labour members I know who is prepared to articulate a clear economic vision for NZ.
An excellent, article.
Well done, TL
appreciated richard. Hope to get another one done some time after Labour Conference.
Coming out in style! Well done mate. Don’t hold back 😉 And long live TARA.
Is this the end of an era with CV? Looking forward to what is coming next.
Thanks weka! It is a bit of an end of an era, but CV will still pop up unexpectedly I am sure. Yes goodbye TINA hello TARA!!!
How good it is to see someone prepared to challenge the mantra. I was thinking about it the other day actually …. TINA (there is no alternative) as neo-liberal ‘buzz’ – when of course there are ALWAYS alternatives. The mantra that got swallowed hook, line and sinker (and still is by quite a few esprayshnuls).
Then there was TRICKLE DOWN that defied gravity
Then there was the FREE MARKET that never was and still isn’t
We’ve had CHANGE AGENTS who never were but who simply sought to implement their agenda
We had POSITIONINGs (usually used to justify some future nirvana)
FLEXIBILITY – usually used to justify the removal of some basic human right
EFFICIENCY and EFFECTIVENESS – more often than not used to justify some corporate takeover or privatisation of things we already own
…. and let’s not get into PRUDENT ECONOMIC MANAGEMENT, or DEREGULATION.
Thankfully, I notice ‘LEARNINGS” is off to a bit of a shaky start (probably because its a Bridges/fuckwit favourite)
Challenge the lingo at every turn!
These inventions are designed to fool the populace
Btw … everyone/anyone: PLEASE add to the list. Above are just a few that get on my wick but you could probably compile a dictionary
One phrase I particularly dislike is when Capital Gains Tax is mentioned or increasing the retirement age is up for discussion, the put down is “That is the politics of envy!” The Nacts frequently use it.
Far from the politics of envy, it is the politics of fairness.
Great post Tat Loo. I have always maintained that Labour should
front foot policy.
Oh Christ .. I just thought of another beauty.
It came about when DOWNSIZING became unfashionable: RIGHTSIZING.
It’d be so nice if we were actually right-sized. I think RIGHTSIZING was actually LOPSIZING in disguise.
Anyhow – let’s not hijack this thread.
Kudos and appreciation to Tat Loo
well, wot can I say… 😉 Rationalization : “Marx and Engels associated the emergence of modern society above all with the development of capitalism; for Durkheim it was connected in particular with industrialization and the new social division of labour which this brought about; for Weber it had to do with the emergence of a distinctive way of thinking, the rational calculation which he associated with the Protestant Ethic (more or less what Marx and Engels speak of in terms of those ‘icy waves of egotistical calculation’).
-John Harris , The Second Great Transformation ? .
“LONG TAIL OF UNDERACHIVEMENT”
Blow me down! I always figured you for an inner westie, based somewhere near DC’s nether regions. Now I understand why Clare Curran felt so threatened 😉
There is a bit of an inner westie in there somewhere mate! As for your local political analysis: no comment lol.
yeh- it is interesting the assumptions I had made when reading the Vipers comments and also had for some reason read Colonial as Colonel…
CV is not perfect. Tat has the disadvantage of not being a Westie. Fortunately he compensates in many other ways. I did spy that smiling face in the Black Salt in New Lynn on the night of Cunliffe’s Leadership victory party. I hope he comes to West Auckland from time to time to inhale the essence on that blesses locale and bring the fight to Dunedin North.
The next Selection Convention there will ve fun!
Great post, CV. Will be at conference so I will say hello.
Bloody nice post. Don’t usually read the overly long ones, but this one was engaging. Anyway… to the point.
Universal income and a jobs rich environment. If the former, then no real need for the latter. Rather, available jobs could (should) be allowed and encouraged only if they satisfy given social and environmental yard sticks. So, no more soul destroying crap jobs that exist only because the economy is geared to allow (demand acceptance of) the exploitation of some by others. Socially and environmentally worthwhile or necessary jobs available to supplement a living UI really is the only realistic option available in any future that can happen and persist.
A second unrelated point is this ‘strengthening of local communities’ that I’ve heard mentioned by D. Cunliffe and that you also mention in your post. See, that could be positive and way overdue if it is the actual people who comprise the community being empowered. But if instead, power is invested in existing formal, or future more informal, bureaucratic structures, then it would constitute a massively damaging mis-step.
And I suspect the future shape of the Labour Party will hinge on that question of where power in various situations is vested. Old traditionalists (statists and their ilk) will insist, by and large, that bureaucracies will need strengthening. And if they hold sway, then any ‘new dawn’ for Labour is going to turn into one of those endless shitty days nobody can be really bothered with and that everyone wishes would just end.
Yep. No one wants or needs a new breed of Political Commissars appointed from Wellington and parachuted into local communities and bureaucracies telling communities what to do.
Bill, do you have system access to edit the links in my post? None of them are working properly because there is a random single symbol appended to the end of the links. Would be much obliged.
[lprent; I see that he is currently editing it, so I won’t bother. Nursing my after the birthday (sisters 50th) head at work. ]
[Bill : Done, bar the ‘superior investemnt’ link and the pdf from Waikato. Mbe if you refind and submit in long form, then someone can fix them up properly?]
Cheers lprent. Thanks for walking me through the process this morning. Hungover no less!
Awesome thank you for working through that Bill. For those wanting to check out those links they are here:
NZ bonds safer than US Treasuries:
Beyond the beamer, boat and bach
Pleased to meet you, Tat!
Most kind, QoT. Always good to see you posting! 🙂
Capitalist rentier thinking goes all the way back to the birthplace of Western civilisation 5000 years ago in Sumer. It didn’t work then either and is the reason why the religions that have their origins the area all proclaim interest to be anathema.
Nope, what we need is a diverse economy/society that is not dependent upon foreign “friends” or financing.
The NZ government should be the sole issuer of NZ currency. The issuance of the currency by the government should be spent directly into the economy. This can be in several areas: Resource extraction, R&D, farming, education, etc. Essentially, the government should be the base of the entire economy. In this version of finances taxes aren’t funding the government but are the destruction of the money created by the government so as to prevent the over abundance of money (Which is what we see now with the private banks being the creator of most of the money in the system).
Which is one of the many reasons why I support a UBI and free education. Support and encourage people to follow their own paths and our society will become much greater. The present neo-liberal paradigm of only supporting the rich and victim blaming everyone else can only result in the destruction of our society.
Still can’t find reverse..
Don’t disagree DTB, but for the next few years I think we have to play the game with the cards we hold in hand, not the cards we wished we held.
True but we still need to plan how to get to where we want to be and that requires knowing where we want to be.
It will be you quenching the haze of smoke and flame surrounding the location of your lair next.
now, if I could just figure out how the iconic other tracks end up located in the (strip-down-the-right-side), I could rest a little easier partner.
elegantly Blacked out
We still need to be traders. Can’t see that changing any time soon. On our terms, though.
Nice Tat! I love it when I read well referenced material with some analysis. Wow. If it were only real. I’ve become jaded,
disillusioned and cynical. When I
read of the Labour MP’S in the Sky Corporate box
Yeah I went through the disillusioned/cynical phase myself, mate. Seems like the sun is coming back up tho!
I’ll be part of the Dunedin North delegation too. So I’m sure I’ll be seeing you
well CV….fancy that!…I thought you were a Wellingtonian sitting up in the hills somewhere….with nothing else to do…..but I always thought your political analysis was spot on and you were super smart….will miss CV!….but hello TatLoo ! ( call me gobsmacked)
Chooky aka gobsmacked. Hi 🙂
Chooky may be gobsmacked, but isn’t “gobsmacked”. That is I. Just to be clear 🙂
ha! loud and clear!
…sorry gobsmacked !…but I was for a wee while
….should have said to CV “You could have knocked me over with a feather duster!” or “knocked me off the perch!”
…..all us chookys are bug eyed and very alert!
….er ummm….now …… CV /Tat Loo …. this is interesting!
You can say that again! 😎
I assumed a mover-and-shaker in Dunedin or surrounds, thanks to CC’s rabid involvement. Never expected an actual candidate, though.
Very very nicely written and I applaud you for daring to put a face to the name of Colonial Viper 🙂
With this Labour party hopefully ascendant to government next year, it’ll be important to have loud voices like yours calling for these kinds of progressive, socially-inclusive policies.
I actually have very little to fault your post on apart from the fact that potentially New Zealand should become even more “risk averse” and over compensate (a little) for the feet dragging of the rest of the world. We need to go from last in the pack (where National have left us) to leading the field again. Thankfully, as a small nation, this is easier for us than for the behemoths of our globe.
It’s because of people like you that I’ll be joining Labour to help keep Cunliffe’s feet over the fire and hold him accountable for his promises.
Hey Zorr, thanks so much, it will be great to have you on the Labour train.
One reason that I ‘came out’ was that a Cunliffe government will need to listen to and represent a wide range of views. We can all see that the standard orthodoxy is not just failing NZ, but failing peoples all over the world. Having ‘de-cloaked’ CV I can now push these points a little harder from within the party, as myself.
Regardless, at last count probably over a hundred people knew who CV actually was (hmmm speaking of myself in the third person…), so it was already an open secret in several circles.
seven degrees of separation
Laughed out loud, CV (if I can still call you that).
The only part of the picture I had in my head of you was your (presumed) gender.
Now I have to merge two very different people that I have existing impressions of, into one.
Very pleased to meet you – and great post.
Thanks js…and yes it’s a bit of a head frak when this kind of mental mismatch happens. All part of the fun 🙂
You realise you’ll have to spill on where and when you people hold your “secret squirrel” meetings now…..
The electorate meetings to be specific.
The different Labour branches in Dunedin North meet at different regularities and venues; I’d say that placing a phone call to David Clark’s electorate office on Albany St is the best bet to find out. Although I fear you may have already tried this…
Yeah, agent 86 in the office maintained the ‘cone of silence’ rather well.
Re Mental Mismatch
…If there were to be a big ‘Standardista Coming Out Party’….I expect there would be huge shocks all around!
…that person you thought was an academic might be a a member of a motorbike gang for example ….and vice versa.
..personally I find this anonymity intriguing..it is the perfect classless society …(and also raceless and genderless and ageless) ….hence it precludes automatic stereotyping and pecking orders
….creating a cauldron of ideas which can be thrashed out on their own merits
Who you are is determined about how well you can argue and link to supporting material. It has been like that on computer networks since I started playing around on them since 1980.
What you know about people is what they care to share. What they rely upon requires them to exhibit knowledge in accordance with their claims, and that is done to a skeptical audience with the whole of the net available, usually with the knowledge to locate it.
The only thing it needs to moderation to stop the YELLERS trying to talk over people. Around here, they have me and the other mods to deal with.
Old Yellers? 😀
defenses are annealed Chooky
What a lovely, encouraging post after all the jaw-droppingly nasty Auckland stuff. I am not sure whether I will be at the conference in Christchurch, but if I am I will look out for you and say hi. Good on you too for staying around when you were put under all that pressure to shut up.
People like yourself Olwyn and others on the Standard were of a great help to me during that time.
Hi Tat! (do we call you Tat or Loo?)
lol Dunedin North
First name Tat 🙂
Of course, people can (and will) call me anything they want 😀
You say mining and exploration should continue. Mining for what? Fossil fuels? ‘International best practice’ are weasel words, they merely describe the best way to do a really bad thing. We know fossil fuels are changing the climate and acidifying the oceans, what we don’t know is whether the Labour party will wise up and stand up and do something about it. When you are all at your conference you need to decide if you are going to facilitate the fossil fuel industry’s destruction of the biosphere by allowing them to drill for oil while you hide behind phrases like ‘rigourous conditions’. Or will you be brave enough to send the oil companies packing and lead the world? Like we did when we became nuclear free.
Fossil fuel usage and climage change are predicaments, not problems, in that there are no solutions, only adaptations. If there was an easy way, technically, socially, politically, and economically (and when you reply, I’d encourage you to think about these four spheres of possibilities and how they limit our range of options). Add to that time, and the cost of any change.
To transform NZ’s transport, it will take energy and resources, and that involves burning fossil fuels. It’s either do that, or nothing at all.
Our civilisation’s addiction to fossil fuels is real and it is deep. Getting off fossil fuels in a structured way which doesn’t strain and tear away at society is going to require major planning and investment. Which by the way will create a lot of jobs, develop new expertise and technology, and increase the value of our economic activity.
There will be a lot of angry people around if we were to try and shut down all the petrol stations and diesel pumps around the country in the next 12 or 24 months. It’s really not going to happen.
It’s really not going to happen.
Damn, I almost wish Jenny weren’t banned so we could get her response on this 😛
is that masochism or sadism? I always get the two mixed up 😈
What is it that they say about politics? ‘The art of the possible’… 🙂
Fossil fuels aren’t the only thing that can be mined. Other minerals, other valid uses.
The problem is getting genuinely independent analysis of the costs/benefits. All these projects are accompanied by a bunch of reports from the industry “consultants”, telling us that the country will benefit (or at least, the consultants will). It’s all predictably Mandy Rice-Davies.
I don’t think Labour should Just Say No to mining. Just ask hard questions, and not settle for self-serving answers.
Congratulations, Well articulated, look forward to more
So you clearly think that Labour will not be seduced, or prostituted to corporate Interests, again?
We’ve seen how important it is to Labour to have a vocal, active, and occasionally non-compliant membership base. Going forward, that is going to be as important as ever to make sure that those in Wellington don’t accidentally ‘lose their way’.
That and continuing to democratise how things are done in the party.
Oooh Tat don’t use that phrase “going forward” ever again. It’s terrible.
At last you’ve done it. 😀 Now we can start twisting the arms of our branch and LEC members before next year’s list selection. The Labour caucus needs you and your brilliant brain.
I stand appropriately chided.
Hi there Anne 🙂 Your support is most welcome 😀
Good to put a face to the voice and a real person to the words, Tat.
Do I still call you Mr Snake? Or would you prefer Rocket man?
Your preference mate, if it’s from you I will respond 🙂
I’ll probably call you Tat, but nice to know you won’t take offence either way 😆
Pleased to meet you Tat.
(not quite the CV I’d imagined – but only by decade or two)
😉 joe90, greetings. It really is fascinating to hear different peoples perceptions of CV.
ahhh, Dunedin, have ridden through a number of times, stayed the night, to ride some more.
Ate, drank, and was very merry.
Returned a few years ago to pick up the GPz 1000R and rode that back up here.
Fond memories, firm I was workshop-manager for are also based there.
You and Flockie could hide-out together.
well, here’s Riding With Jim 😎
btw, well-written article.
Thank you sir…
no need for formalities around here, we have been old friends for some time. Now, about my marital prospects…
Sir 😆 I always imagined you as a Duke or Baron
Is that you Earl? (summer’s set).
Or Count D.
Earl or Lord, I wouldn’t really care, but Sir is so common, and if people like Key can grease up or buy one, I would reject it.
outgrew the pageantry of the monarchies; it’s the history that interests me.
Freakin’ funny watching the responses of the HRH’s to Malala Yousafzi; anachronistic.
“You and Flockie could hide-out together.”
Hide tanning more like 😉
Ahhh Dunedin I spent, or rather misspent 6 years of my life down there as an adult student. Went for a Year stayed for 6, Gone now are a lot of the landmarks, Capt Cook The Gardie Bar Street Parties, and burning couches to keep warm at Carisbrook. I remember going to a Scarfi party in the middle of winter lying on our backs in the snow watching the Aurora Australis streaming over they sky in complete silence (There should have been some music) and realising how small we really are on our tiny rock. Anyway Tat, I digress, but like others Picked you for a Capital Person, and you are, welcome out, hope you win.
David H 🙂
Should have been clearer, send the off shore drillers packing. I am not naive and stupid enough to think we can just stop using fossil fuels now, but unless we rapidly transition to a renewably powered society our grandkids will be toast. 350.org have done the maths and what fossil fuels we can (possibly safely) burn, should be used to make the transition. Tat, you are spot on about the job opportunities, that’s where we need to go. Peter, you say it’s all too hard for 4 reasons. Yes, we are stuck between a fossil fuel rock that is damaging the biosphere upon which we depend and an unpalatable, unpopular, difficult and extremely hard place. Where will Labour stand? Business as usual or real action?
Those aren’t the only two options. Another one is that Labour and the GP prepare the ground for transition. I don’t think you can get a whole country to shift suddenly into accepting the need for transition, and if NZ were ready for that we would have Green govt already. It’s a process, and from what I can see parts of Labour are ready for that. The questions are really about to what extent, how Labour handle this internally, and timeframes.
Yep, we can provide options, the big picture transport stuff that only the State can build. I’d start with backing rail electrification and speed increases, biorefineries, potentially powered by geothermal, and some sort of mercantile exchange contract with Bolivia to obtain sufficient lithium reserves in return for something tangible that they need. Of course, with batteries I’d be focusing less on energy density than on lifespan.
Mineral Commodity Report 19 – Beryllium, Gallium, Lithium, Magnesium, Uranium and Zirconium
Just how many tonnes of lithium do we use per year and well can it be recycled?
I’ve just learnt something new. Most of that lithium will be going back into the reinjection wells now, rather than the Waikato. Makes you wonder about a way to get the lithium out before it goes back down.
What are the speed increases?
Increasing the speed of rail which is, at present in NZ, very slow. It would be expensive and take a long time as I’m sure that the higher speeds that trains achieve elsewhere is only possible because of the wider track used than the narrow gauge used here.
Tilt-trains can reach up to 150 km/hr on our grade of track.
+1….Weka and Peter
No, I didn’t say it was too hard, I said it was “hard”, and unfortunately my next sentence got eaten up. What might be technically feasible is rarely socially or economically feasible. Somewhere in those overlapping Venn diagrams is a window of possibility, a window that is highly dependent on location. NZ has a bigger window than most.
There is no way of replacing our current way of life with renewables, the energy equations don’t add up. However, NZ has the ability to invest in a renewables powered transport backbone, and it very well could build a few strategically located biorefineries to obtain some semblance of liquid fuels to power what we can’t run electrically. Chemical fuels will always be better than batteries for many applications.
We can’t force people to change, but we can give them real options to leave their cars behind, when they choose, or the price forces them to.
Very enlightening! and a great post too…
As someone who has been impressed by CV I wish you the best of luck for your political ambitions. You are an asset to Labour and we here in the Otaki electorate need someone like you, please consider relocating!!!LOL…
lolz fender…btw I grew up in Palmy North not so far away 😉
I too would like to see you in the Otaki electorate CV – it would almost be enough for me to do something I’ve never done and give my party vote to Labour ;)..
Muchly honoured 😎
edit But would that mean living in Levin 😯
Mate, I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.. Keep coming down to the southern end of the electorate 🙂
True… I don’t even know who we have now. only hear of that bloody fool Nathan Guy
From last weeks Observer “nominations are open for Otaki”
Labour Party nominations are now open for all electorates around the country AFAIK.
if he considers relocating then invercargill is closer and at least we have an airport … unlike clutha or otaki, lol.
The Otaki electorate has an airport Varity, although it is technically in the Mana one because Kapiti Rd. is the boundary line, and it’s right on the southern boundary, it’s called Paraparaumu airport.
Pleased to meet you, fellow Sutchean.
Tonnes to argue with there. But in the meantime, great to see you out in public.
And see you at Conference.
Hey! Yes, and it’s going to be great arguing about more substantial issues than “when is the Budget going to be back in surplus.”
See you in Christchurch.
Kia ora Tat
I haven’t always agreed, but I’ve read what you write (well a lot of it anyway) keep it up. Kia kaha.
Kia ora MM, I have learnt much from you along the way.
We know Brilliance when we strip across it. 😎
Your persons, your territories, your assumptions, your empire, your socialism, and your commerce all comprise your realm.
Your system is corrupt, you do not speak for the people of Aotearoa or for the land.
How delightful that you should enlighten us with your informed and considered commentary, OAK.
that ain’t ‘alf clever pet.
“you do not speak for the people of Aotearoa or for the land.”
Neither do you, so what?
So it is inappropriate for an employee of the Crown to speak of “our people”. All the Crown speaks for is its persons.
But he’s not an employee of the Crown as far as I know. And even if he was, read this sentence from the bottom of his post
“I speak for and represent only myself on The Standard.”
OK, in that case he’s only being presumptuous by speaking of “our people, our land and water”. Also the party that he supports has rejected the law of the land, so there is no honour in that path either.
But to be fair dishonesty in politics is par for the course, so apart from being a card-carrying socialist he’s probably no worse than any other political wannabe.
One post ago, it was “speaking of”, then in the next sentence “speaking for”; now it’s suddenly “speaking of” again. Anyone can “speak of” our land and our people, and your fantasies about Mr. Loo trying to “speak for” them don’t follow from the quote you reference. When even the content of what you’re saying keeps wobbling around like that, it’s very hard to discern a point in there. So far, you seem to have generated a lot of verbiage just to say “I disagree with Mr. Loo”.
In this thread, he had me at his profound distinction between “our people” and “its persons”. 🙄
Persons have diminshed legal status compared to people, in that they owe some obligation to the state. The state has no authority over people because the state is a creation of the people.
There is a difference between “people” and “the people”.
What is your point?
what a load of shite.
Mr Loo said: “our people …. our sovereignty … our community” – he’s speaking for his “people” by implying that they have some kind of sovereignty.
The point of my fist post (29) was that Mr Loo was implying that there was some kind of honour associated with his political platform, but in fact there isn’t any, it is just the usual socialism and corruption that is so widespread in this country.
“Mr Loo said: ‘our people …. our sovereignty … our community’ – he’s speaking for his “people” by implying that they have some kind of sovereignty.”
The people of NZ are a sovereign people in that they can make their own laws via elected officials and have their own legal and policing organs to enforce them. You can quibble about the justice of how that is conducted or how you want to define “sovereignty”, but the usage of “our sovereignty” in the post is just common parlance to refer to objective fact. It isn’t an attempt to appropriate or speak for your definition of sovereignty. For someone seemingly so keen on sophistry, you’re awfully clumsy at it.
“it is just the usual socialism and corruption that is so widespread in this country.”
I think you need to define “socialism” before you can credibly claim that it is “usual” in this country. Also, lumping it in with corruption is very much the sort of grandiose and vague generalisation that you’re pretending to be against in Mr. Loo’s post.
Bollocks. The legislation of the current bunch on numptys is nothing more than rules for persons. They cut themselves off from the source of law a very long time ago. Sovereignty is very much connected to the capacity to make law. In NZ the sovereignty of parliament is only assumed, it is not real.
To illustrate this, imagine that a collection of criminals conspired to defraud the public of what was rightfully theirs, and in doing so said that they were honourable and sovereign and were making law. How would this situation be any different to what exists within the body politic today? (Please remember that the state’s ongoing injury of the natural rights of people does in fact constitute criminal behaviour)
More importantly, if it’s done with the consent and the votes of the people, how is it not lawful?
Well, I said that you could quibble about the justice of how it was conducted. You proceeded to do so and failed to address my point at all. You are effectively taking a mainstream component of political thought in the Western World and claiming that it is the presumptuous creation of a poster on The Standard. Your continual insistence on pushing your own wheelbarrow, and apparent inability to see why it is neither relevant nor even logically connected to the discussion at hand, means that I’m done with this discussion.
Followup for McFlock:
Re: They cut themselves off from the source of law a very long time ago.
They did this when they adopted their perverted version of the common law.
The common law in unavoidably theistic, the secular version that the state uses is an expression of the corruption of the state.
More importantly, if it’s done with the consent and the votes of the people, how is it not lawful?
Because the will of the people alone is not sufficient to make law.
If two people vote and consent to a crime then it is a conspiracy.
If two hundred people vote and consent to a crime it is still a conspiracy.
What is unlawful does not become lawful just because a certain number of people have agreed to it.
Re: Please remember that the state’s ongoing injury of the natural rights of people does in fact constitute criminal behaviour
Associated with the theistic nature of the common law are natural rights, as described by Blackstone. The right to life and liberty are two of these. The right to liberty in injured when the state restricts ordinary access to public places like roads.
When I asked for a citation, all you needed to say was “I have a magic book, so blah”.
Nice one 🙂
Pleased to meet you, Tat.
Likewise Huggin, thanks for stopping by.
Tat loo I think I agree with all your points, but the concepts in them will not get through to Mr & Mrs Centre, those people who vote tory even though they would be better off in almost every way if they voted labour/green. You will have to distil your points into snappy phases with five or less words in them, then they may actually punch through our media which today only reports sound bites.
You’re quite right Lloyd. Depending on how ‘concrete’ vs ‘conceptual’ someone’s head is at, that’s where an appropriate pitch needs to occur.
The snappy sound bites (Josh Lyman from the West Wing described them as ten word answers) and the even briefer political slogans (e.g. “no more taxes”, “brighter future”, etc) are crucial…but they must also do a double duty and describe a new narrative, not kowtow to the old neolib narrative.
Agree. They should index a new narrative that is developed via all kinds of platforms. And not be empty slogans like “brighter future”.
Yep, a real ‘360 degree’ approach to elucidating a new narrative. To use (ugh) corporate jargon.
Welcome aboard, Tat. Excellent post. So you’ve decided to leave the Battlestar!
Well, well, well, CV, looking at your CV (or rather election campaign bio) – who’da thought?
Chiropractor – Masters in Pain Medicine. hmmm – I may need to book up a consultation some time in the future!
I guess I bought you own mythology of a kept man of relative leisure.
I agree with most of your post, especially:
a full commitment to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, as well as delivering on a comprehensive programme of civics education and public media, is crucial.
whether or not there are ‘enough physical resources’ (e.g. water, skilled people) available to get it done.
Only qualitative growth, e.g. improvements in: value, creativity, design and inclusiveness – will prove physically (and morally) sustainable.
[tick – I think, although will need to see some elaboration on “morally”]
building not-for-profit community based assets, and encouraging democratisation of the economy and of workplaces. Unions have a central and critical role to play as economic change agents, but this extends further, to the very design and governance of organisations themselves.
This last one sounds good, though I would like to see more detail. Ditto, for the point below, especially wanting more detail on “social security employer”
We can ill-afford the unequal social justice, mental health, and economic outcomes that we are foisting on to our young people today. To that end, a policy of full employment and training for all New Zealanders 25 years and under, with the Government serving as the ultimate social security employer, is a must.
And I’m with Bill on what ‘strengthening of local communities’ means – ie from above or below.
karol hi. It really is a pleasure to ‘come out’ and make myself known on The Standard. Although a reasonable number of people around the place already knew my identity, I felt this was a necessary step and one that I knew many Standardistas would be supportive of. So thank you.
Ahhh, yes, I’m not really married into a family with gazillions of dollars, might be nice tho 🙂
Interesting ideas about the governance of work places can be gleaned from how Germany – a successful, advanced, industrial economy, has used ‘worker councils’ as an integral part of company boards of directors.
Re: ‘social security employer’ this is a nicer name for ’employer of last resort’ which may have somewhat negative connotations, even though there should not be any. The aim of a social security employer might be to ensure that anyone who wants a half time or full time job has one, preferably in an appropriate field. Maybe starting at the youth end of the workforce.
It also helps to make the minimum wage a real minimum wage. At the moment the minimum wage is only a minimum – if and when you can find work.
This is worth a good discussion, yes. My mind set favours increased decentralisation and increased localised direction. IMO local communities tend to know what their issues are (and what the potential solutions may be) far better than an ‘expert’ a thousand kms away.
Thanks for the full reply. I guess if the UBI is in place, social security employer has less pressure on it. For instance, participating in community work or other valued activities.
Decentralisation – the opposite of what’s been happening with Hide’s Auckland supercity.
I have to say, I’m very dubious of a “social security employer”, ie one that just “magics up” whatever jobs are necessary for anyone who wants a job.
Sounds like a recipe for an awful lot of “make-work” non-productive jobs, or necessary jobs that are given to people who simply can’t or won’t make a proper go of it, thus wasting everyone’s time.
I am, perhaps perversely, extremely in favour of a UBI however. In such a scenario, volunteer work becomes much more viable, and although the government could still actively work to extend jobs to as many as possible, there isn’t as much pressure to ensure every last person available has a job.
Fair points. And I certainly don’t want to hire people to ‘dig up holes and fill them in again’.
However I suspect that there is a stack of necessary and useful work in our society which currently needs to be done, but is currently not being done.
During the Great Depression, US gov programmes like the WPA: built national parks, built schools and hospitals, cleared farmland, built roads and railways as well as added to the nation’s arts and culture eg. funded professional theatre, artists, orchestras, bands, writers, poets, journalism and documentaries.
Yep, there’s a hell of a lot that can be done and should be done but isn’t being done due to the commercial imperative of capitalism.
I start from the premise of the social and financial cost of unemployment. An unemployed person, or an unemployed family is likely to have incurred direct costs against the taxpayer at all of the following agencies:
MSD, ACC, MoH/DHBs,Education, Police, Corrections, and quite possibly more. Add that cost up (and no one does, because it’s siloed), and it’ll wind up being cheaper to make some valuable work for those people.
Not to mention massive other costs to society and persons including increased risks over time of: reduction in self esteem, deterioration of work ethic and personal care, increasing unemployability after 6 or 12 months, depression or anxiety, worsened stress and strains on family and relationships (including increased chances of divorce), poverty (which has many intergenerational impacts), and even heightened probability of death.
As a fellow Dunedin North person, I’m pleased you’re serving my community in this way. All the best for conference.
Cheers Pete – you are a consistent voice of considered moderation. Well, usually 🙂
All those philosophical talks were not waisted and you rose to my chalenge, I always knew you had it in ya. Given you are down South these days I shall have to say good on ya mate!
Nice work Tatman.
Ha! It’s exciting times, and I have you to thank for much bro 🙂
Interesting that you were standing in elections but were still keeping an anonymous (or whatever the acceptable terminology is on the Standard, Psuedononymous? can’t remember am a bit pissed) user profile on here. Surely it is only fair for those voting to have a chance to see what a candidate really stands for. Espeically consider this is the most public of the left leaning online forums.
It is hard not to think that this was hidden from people because it would make them less likely to vote for you.
Or it could be shame. Perhaps it wasn’t such a great idea to repeatedly state that you wanted to line half of them (though some would argue only 1%) up against a wall and shoot them.
Hey KK. Great to see you 🙂
“Pseudononymous?” – a very squeaky dinosaur?
Or, and this might be a stretch for your monkey brain, maybe it’s none of your fucking business how and when people choose to present themselves online.
Would have made me more likely to vote for him, though as it turns out I did anyway since I gave 2 ticks for Labour in Clutha/Southland at the last election.
Cheers, ScottGN, appreciate your support.
No worries sir. And you’ll get it next year too if you’re standing in Clutha-Southland, though if the Labour Party has any sense they’ll stand you in a much more winnable seat next year.
Ahem, like Dunedin South, cough 😉
In fact I would have voted for you too if I had lived there!
This argument amuses me, same as it does for the anti-Brown types who demand voters have the right to know every detail of his penis’ history.
The fact is, you only know that there’s something to know because it’s come out. If you want to argue that Tat had a moral duty to tell people every detail of his online interactions, you should demand the same of his opponent, Bill English (or in Brown’s case, John Palino) – but you don’t, because you don’t know that there’s anything to know.
There’s probably plenty in every political candidate’s past which might influence voters. Do they do the dishes after dinner when they visit their mum? How do they decide which buskers to give spare change to? Can they tie their own shoes?
It is simply impossible for us to ever have every single detail which might be relevant to our decision-making. That’s why we already have things like pecuniary registers and conflict-of-interest declarations to make sure the details which are actually relevant to their governing of us are covered.
Nice try sweat heart. I never mentioned who he is fucking or anything to do with his private life.
This is pure and simple about “representing” your politics. Knowing what CV wrote on here and reading his bio on votedunedin, it is almost fucking fraudulent.
Gave me a good laugh though and I bet there are a few red faces from those who comment on the Standard that bought first class tickets on Labour’s “yellow peril” train earlier in the year. Who knew their mate CV was one of them.
“Almost fucking fraudulent”? Shit that’s a lucky miss then, ain’t it?
If you have a problem with a statement that I’ve made as CV, try and find some crumbs from within the relevant 3 month campaign period eh?
I am sure Phillip Field didn’t have any slaves working on his house during the electoral period as well.
“almost fucking fraudulent”
lol, jungle law is it monkey boy? You’re a fraud sneaking in with the humans..
Lets be fair, Any statement that didn’t include “I support the dismantling of the current capitalist system and replacing it with it with a socialist utopia that me, and my internet buddies, have thoroughly, beaten off to” is pretty dishonest.
Oh fuck, does this mean you’re not voting Labour?
This is more serious than I thought.
“I bet there are a few red faces from those who comment on the Standard that bought first class tickets on Labour’s “yellow peril” train earlier in the year.”
Labour’s yellow peril train? You mean the radical idea that we shouldn’t sell our country to people who don’t live here?
Yeah there were a few people here who took that as an excuse to let their racist flags fly. That would be you King Kong, along with chris73, big bruv, Gosman and a couple of other morans.
I didn’t see any lefties on your racist train. Of course if I’m wrong you could always post a link to prove it.
But I’m not, and you can’t, so you won’t.
Fuck you’re a nob. Luckily I have seen you pull this nonsense too many times.
It goes like this. I shame you in public by showing you a black and white example of what I am talking about and then you use some childish semantic argument that goes on for a ridiculous period that only a middle aged man who lives with their Mum has the time and interest in pursuing.
That’s quite a fantasy life you’ve got going on there monkey. The truth is you’ve never backed up your bullshit and you won’t do it this time because you can’t.
Find me one – ONE – single example of anyone from the left on this site supporting any policy of excluding Chinese people from NZ and I’ll not only apologise, I’ll ban myself from this site for a month.
So “yellow peril” has already magically become “excluding Chinese people from NZ”.
Sadly, I am pretty sure that you don’t actually realise you are doing it.
Ok monkey, you tell me what yellow peril means.
Quickly now, I know you’re busy.
What about telling English people to fu*k off back to their own contry?
Does that count, even if they’re not Chinese?
I Think you will find that it all comes under the banner of xenophobia
Nah, don’t worry cat man, I wouldn’t want you to go without posting for a month, not on my behalf. You don’t even have to say sorry.
You carry on sticking it to the monkey boy. 😉
“What about telling English people to fu*k off back to their own contry?”
What about it?
Just asking for clarification, ’cause we both know this isn’t strictly true. So before I shoot off to bed, should I do the search for the link or will you? 😆
“I didn’t see any lefties on your racist train..”
Ps. I’m not going to get the link, just as long as we both know I could.
Besides, it’s about ‘yellow peril’ and not ‘any old iron’, right?
Did someone tell English people to fuck off because they’re English?
Or did someone tell you to fuck off because you’re a tool?
“Did someone tell English people to fuck off because they’re English?
Or did someone tell you to fuck off because you’re a tool?”
Kin ‘el mate, don’t make kong look good or nothing, will you?
“It goes like this. I shame you in public by showing you a black and white example of what I am talking about and then you use some childish semantic argument that goes on for a ridiculous period that only a middle aged man who lives with their Mum has the time and interest in pursuing.”
Night, cat man. 😉
All that and still no link.
Is it an English tool we’re looking for….
not a Stan Lee?
Well fender, the unusual rotational pattern of Planet Fuckjob causes some strange and confusing temporal distortions.
For example, people there have all day and night to whine about being too busy to find a link.
BSW or BSF imperial King Dick not Stanley here
KK tried to link but discovered the branch was rotten and he fell to the ground.
ahhh fender, Very Whitworthy
ahhh fender, Very worthy to Whit and open-ended 😀
Sweat heart? Ummm
Given that in the earlier replies to this comment it’s been amply demonstrated that you’re talking absolute shit and can’t back up your statements, I shall merely add: don’t call me “sweetheart” (or any misspelled variation thereof) you condescending jackass.
Lynn did talk about shooting climate change deniers. Not sure about CV though
It is something that I am pretty sure is going to happen.Especially the outright liars like Wishart who have attempted to study the field enough. The basic science is simple enough.
I always wonder what motivates such people to try to condeem future generations to the type of world that he and others are helping to create. But I hope he lives long enough to see the consequences.
The man has written about three million comments on here so I can’t be fucked looking however I am sure Tat will put his hand up to it.
Not good enough. You made an accusation now back it up or apologise.
That’d make it easier to find examples, not harder. Silly monkey.
It’s a serious accusation. Back it up.
Look, Tat is all over this vanity post so why can’t he put you straight.
Here is the first one that came up
Rather that look at that link, perhaps I should just take your word for it that it says something about wanting to shoot half the voters in NZ.
That is what we’re talking about, right?
And so it, as I refer to above,begins.
I would like to tell you that you could do better than that, but you have proven time and time again that you can’t.
You have made the second highest amount of comments in history on the Standard (I am lead to believe) but have said the least.
Well either you’re accusing CV of saying he wants to shoot half the voters of NZ or you’re not.
Doesn’t bother me either way, but when you change your mind about making that sort of accusation it’s customary to apologise.
KK, How about you keep to these 10 very simple rules of rational debate:
1. Thou shall not attack a person’s character but the argument itself. (“Ad hominem”)
2. Thou shall not misrepresent or exaggerate a person’s argument in order to make it easier to attack. (“Straw Man Fallacy)
3. Thou shall not use small numbers to represent the whole. (“Hasty Generalization”)
4. Thou shall not argue thy position by assuming one of its premises is true. (“Begging the Question”)
5. Thou shall not claim that because something occurred before, it must be the cause. (“Post Hoc/False Claim”)
6. Thou shall not reduce the argument down to two possibilities. (“Fake Dichotomy”)
7. Thou shall not argue that because of our ignorance that the claim must be true or false. (“Ad Ignorantiam”)
8. Thou shall not lay the burden of proof onto him who is questioning the claim. (“Burden of Proof Reversal”)
9. Thou shall not assume “this” follows “that” when “it” has no logical connection. (“Non Sequitor”)
10. Thou shall not claim that because a premises is popular, therefore, it must be true. (“Bandwagon Fallacy”)
I reckon you broke half of those already in just this one thread.
[lprent: You missed the important one. 0. Don’t piss off the sysop. (“Really just common sense”) ]
Excellent travailler of fools Ev
Printing this out and framing it! 🙂
Then you are going to love this:
Actually, it warns that the future security state, taken to its logical conclusion, are likely to put journalists up against the wall:
ie warning journalists that this may be their fate under a total (digitised) surveillance state, if they fail to support democracy within the MSM.
KK comprehension fail.
Edit: sorry, should have read on. McFlock already said that.
with the allegation:
Reading comprehension fail: truly, it was literacy that killed the beast….
And that, McFlock – comparing two statements with different meanings – is what King Kong calls “some childish semantic argument”.
The supreme irony being that he doesn’t seem to know what “semantic” means. 😉
Did KK think CV was going to do the journalists in…..what a banana brain…
well, the word sometimes makes me giggle, too.
So when he claims that one statement with a precise meaning is an example of another statement with a very different meaning, we’re not allowed to use the fundamental contradiction to demonstrate that he’s full of crap?
Well played, monkey boy, well played.
Quick look, but here are some more
Look here’s The Wall……enjoy!
Lol – of those, one lacks “should”, one refers to an “outfit”[organisation], and one he was called on (by me) and he gave an explanation that the expression as he used it referred to a time-out punishment for kids that play silly buggers. Plausible, given the silly bugger he was arguing with at the time.
Still no evidence for “you wanted to line half of them (though some would argue only 1%) up against a wall and shoot them.” But at least slightly less absurd than your previous “example”, monkeyboy.
round ’em up
<a href="http://thestandard.org.nz/?s=Colonial+Viper+%2B+shoot&isopen=none&search_posts=true&search_comments=true&search_sortby=date"At your service
Hi Tat – nice to meet you like this. I’m sure I’ll enjoy reading learning, agreeing and sometimes disagreeing with you as much as I did with CV. Oh and I and my previous alter-ego here in Europe are happy you’ve picked up on the idea of worker’s councils.
I also reckon point 8 is pretty much in train if point 2 is sorted out, especially in relation to civics education. Pollies do what their voters want and there is a huge electorate of young people out there who are not letting them know at the ballot box, or like many aspirational people, are voting against their own interests but don’t know it.
Damn – missed edit window
Well – I’m late to this party (big day in the garden) – but not too late to add my congratulations! Bravo on coming out, and glad to have you (a fellow Dunedin Norther) aboard. Must say – I thought this day would come…
r0b – thank you so much – and what a great day in Dunedin it was. Too bad I had to be close to my keyboard for much of it 🙂
a martyr to the smiles.
That’s what my photo suggests haha.
Sort of dozy. Tired from house painting and gardening I read the column…hmm sounds like a CV formula methinks, not having to bothered reading the Viper bit…dumb arse Ennui strikes again. Hello Tat, yes the direction you sketch out is on the same page as me. The Dunedin bit…putting two and two together does that account for the Curran battle?
Greetings. Well, that’s entirely speculative 😈
You might well think that but CV could not possibly comment.
BTW the American version of House of Cards is equally as good as the British version and well worth watching. I had not really appreciated Kevin Spacey until seeing him play this role
Kevin Spacey is beyond The Usual Suspects Ron.
Thanks will dig that one up and have a look
I also recommend L.A. Confidential – it’s one of my top 5 favourite movies (the other four are Raiders of the Lost Ark, Rear Window, 12 Angry Men and Apollo 13).
You’ve seen Thirteen Days I presume?
Oh yes. A very underrated movie. Costner’s accent needed a little work, but the guys who played JFK and RFK were excellent.
Pleased to meet you Tat.
I enjoyed your vision, one particular area that I am a big supporter of is “building not-for-profit community based assets”, I think this is an area that is critical in returning our nation back to the egalitarian little country it used to be. We recently moved to a small town that has amazing not-for-profit community assets and fantastic clubs that people from all incomes and races mix. I dont think it is any coincidence that this town also has zero unemployment.
I presume that you will continue to contribute comments to the standard, I hope so.
And I’m pleased to meet you, Saarbo.
Yes will definitely keep commenting on The Standard. Might have to watch my language a tiny bit more from now on tho, having to be respectable and all that 🙂
that’s what i don’t like about this. CV could shoot from the hip yet you have to be (and are being) “respectable and all that”. it’s like you’re two different people and it’s difficult to reconcile you as one.
this isn’t a bitch at you personally … it’s just … is CV gone now? cuz i’ll miss him.
Cheers, Varity. Not being able to do the same classic CV sharpshooting is a wee bit annoying, admittedly. But it’s sort of a sacrifice which is required: strident activists make bad politicians, and politicians are typically crappy at being effective activists.
Anyways, I just have to learn to make the same required points with a tad more diplomacy. Not that much more, mind you 🙂
yea it would suck to have to moderate yourself all the time but it’s cool to have a candidate among us.
are there any others here? left or right? i wonder if your confession and the lovely welcome you’ve received will bring others out?
Thanks for all your thought and effort into helping to make NZ a better place for all.
The Labour Conference should be rather different this year!
And thank you for your support as one of The Standard Viper Squadron 🙂
Hmmm I’ve got quite used to the sibilant sounds of Sssssmith.
I’ll leave it there for both the recognition of your past alter-ego and for history + posterity.
I’d still like to see a reversion to an eight hour working day and a forty hour working week + time and a half in order to both give more leisure time and create more employment by sharing the work around more.
Shutting up shop on Sunday to create more community leisure time would be good as well and would have good health benefits as more people engaged in sport etc.
I have no doubt that your good reputation on here will hold you in good stead – thanks for all your previous posts and comments. I for one have enjoyed and respected them.
You too DoSssssss, Mr Viper appreciates 🙂
I live in Dunedin, come here often but comment seldom. I vote (if I must use a binary classification) ‘left’. (Labour is usually insufficiently so for me but better than some alternatives). However, I ranked you 29/35; I did this because I am a scientist. I don’t want to start a flame war (or I’d use a pseudonym), but two words: Simon Singh.
For me (and many, if not most, scientists) chiropractic is woo. This matters because I want my putative representatives to be beholding to evidenced based decisions; If someone pitches woo in one arena then I infer their ability to make decisions in another arena is compromised. (Not to worry though, I ranked you above a climate change denier and above Hilary).
Hi Doug. I’m glad you put me in up above Ms Calvert, thank you 🙂
You can be certain that the orthodox view is not the one that I will always be a proponent of (no problem there as by definition there are already many proponents backing the orthodox view and do we really need another saying the same thing).
Having said that, I am not a scientist by primary training, I am a manufacturing systems engineer. The approach to problem solving that a scientist takes, and a systems engineer takes is necessarily different due to many professional factors. My chiropractic background adds a twist which some proponents of science still refuse to recognise: that we are surrounded by intelligent, complex adaptive systems which are not mechanistically reducible.
For most real world decisions which are required, the evidence available is usually somewhat incomplete, circumstantial or inferential. From my perspective, you want elected representatives who can deal with such evidence deficient or information deficient scenarios effectively.
Maybe the tradeoff for losing CV’s posting style is that you get to comment in context now. I like this.
yep, I have to step up to a more serious level of political response and real world problem solving now. While staying down to earth and in touch with the basics. It’s gonna be both exciting and challenging.
Yep. And I am taken a little (pleasantly) by surprise by the chiropractic, and other naturalistic/wholistic health interests of Tat. I always saw CV’s economic and business approaches. Adds another and interesting context to his perspectives.
You have done much via the keyboard and the words were good to read. Sort of like a fresh Dunedin gale has blown through and swept away the dust and old newspapers. A magnum opus. We should be opening a magnum of bubbly in about a year’s time if we keep the pace up.
Don’t know if you read A Tradesman’s comment late yesterday. But the attitude in it that Labour Party workers should come and talk to the wage workers and low income people to ask them what they want, is one of the barriers to Labour getting in. It expresses a sort of welfare attitude to politics and democracy. The workers have it done for them, they don’t ‘own’ it and state what they want and get enthused about joining the fighting team. Break though this peculiar bubble separating them from supporting democracy and their own vision of it, and there will be hundreds of thousands more voting Labour from that group alone.
Good point. I read that comment yesterday, and I take your observations seriously.
Great post Tat. Always enjoyed your incisive and sometimes wickedly ascerbic posts as CV.
Other than gender, I have a huge disconnect between the real and my “imagined” CV. Guess that’s all part of the fun of the blogosphere.
Thanks a lot Steve. Yes sometimes reading the novel is much better because the film so often ruins what you were sure it was like!
The film can never capture the depth of the written word.
“wickedly ascerbic posts as CV”
Yeah, I’m still struggling to reconcile that gentle-looking expression in Tat’s pic with those pull no punches comments of Colonial Viper.
I won’t say I’ve agreed with all your posts but I did find the arguments you put up (mostly) a cut above the rest but I’m just curious as to why you’re revealing yourself now?
Hey c73, mainly because Labour Conference is just around the corner and I wanted to stake some clear and different policy ideas out there and hence stir the pot a little.
So you’ll be looking at Dunedin South? I hear they have a bit of a loose cannon down there…
funny – for a righty i find the way you express and handle yourself a cut (or three) above your mates too. you sure you aren’t really a suppressed lefty?
and since we’re all in confession mode here – we know each other chris. we’ve even met once and got on fine. unlike tat though i can’t say my name cuz that dodo-head brent/prent banned me. 🙁
notice though you plagiarized one of my quips from WO yesterday. <<<< (that's a hint, not a dig)
[lprent: and you hadn’t drawn my attention until now. I haven’t recognized your behavior, and can’t be bothered tracking down who you are likely to be. Be interesting to see if you can maintain a behavior pattern that doesn’t draw my eye. Most of the time people cannot reform themselves. Mind you, this comment radiates stupidity. ]
Its a small world all right…and I take the view of Oscar Wilde when it comes to using other peoples work 🙂
Lovely to have you here under any name Oh Viperous one.
You win the the Claire Curran Memorial Trophy for Debuts!
Hey thanks 😉
Hey Hey Hey! This is classic! Go Tat Loo/CV, congrats mate!
Hey dude, I know, I had so much fun writing this and getting it posted up. Just being an irrelevant blogger type with no effect in the real world 🙂
I see various comrades have already addressed the glaring holes in your “manifesto” so I shall save my squabbles with you over them for another day. In the meantime, thank you for entering the political arena. Unlike some, I don’t see it as filled with “dirty, disgusting, and despicable people at all levels” but, because there are “dirty disgusting and despicable people” working its fringes, it takes a sturdy soul to bear its machinations. ‘Onya, mate. All the best.
Cheers, BLiP, someone has to do it. Look forward to the debate. 🙂
Comrades? This century, please.
Good for you Tat Loo.
Good sound ideas. Good strength to punch them out there. Good facts and arguments to back them up. Good kiwi minds ready to soak them up as you say.
And always good to put a face to the name.
Was listening to the wireless last week and there was a child expert being interviewed. This person reckoned that the best thing you can give / teach your child to ensure success was self-control. I have always thought one could achieve most anything with discipline. Discipline and self-control are pretty similar. You seem to have that self-control and discipline – you will go far. Good luck fulla.
Thx vto. Always good to see you here shaking things up mate.
DDG-1000 :a floating platform for a rail-gun, amongst additional ordnance.
Meanwhile, 49M Americans live on food stamp hand outs.
btw, the implications of this rail are significant, as I am certain you will be aware.
Ahhhh just read up on it. Although a formidable weapons platform it won’t achieve IOC for a couple of years I think.
this course of action : Viper Pilot
LOL I see…haha launch the Alert Five vipers!
hmmm RT, it concerns me a trifle that the image in your mind is that of a super-fandangled naval destroyer……..
it was the rail-gun and the it’s size that captured me v; no fears of me regressing to “whose got the biggest gun”, although, the Zumwalt does have a couple of versatile 62Cal. AGS…
Excuse me but are you the Colonial viper of yore? (Blond me you have to spell it out)
Yep sure am! No cylon impersonator here…
Pleased to meet you Tat. That’s one for the books! :o:
By the way I take issue with point four on your list. Contrary to popular belief the Reserve bank is not beholden to the NZ government or the people of New Zealand.
The current Reserve Bank governor is Graeme Wheeler who was the number two under Wolfowitz world bank and a financial manager in Washington.
He refuses to give press conferences and only gives information via editorials and newspaper articles unlike Bollard which hardly gives me faith in the transparency of “our” reserve bank. Not only that but the Reserve Bank of NZ is one of the few Reserve banks who will not give any information about how much money they have created and with every reserve bank printing money like there is no tomorrow this seems quaint to say the least and my suspicion is that they to are forced to partake in the fiat currency race to the bottom making their claim of being beholden to New Zealand unbelievable to say the least! But then the Federal Reserve bank of New York also claimed to be “Federal”until a judge based on evidence said that this was utter bullshit!
According to their site they are beholden to the “Crown” which can mean any of the following: The queen of England or the Banking capital the crown of London. Even the NZ government is beholden to the crown and when it comes down to it has to bow to the legal adviser to the Crown being the Attorney General.
Although they don’t really want you to see it that way but if I were to apply for NZ citizen ship I would have to swear allegiance to the Queen of England. Hardly the state of post colonial independence the average Kiwi, still officially the subjects of the queen of England, seems to think they have.
Ahhh I didn’t know that about Wheeler’s background. All I know is that his monetary outlook seems far drier and more orthodox than I would have hoped for.
Also just because he worked at the senior levels of the world bank it doesn’t have to mean that he is knowledgeable about the process of money creation and open market operations. Although he may well be.
Tat Loo, under the CV name, you said this in response to The Black Rod’s post: “In this environment of real economy contraction, the middle classes have been staying afloat by pushing down opportunities available to the working classes and the under classes. Just as the 1% is determined to stay afloat by pushing down the middle classes.”
This encapsulates the cycle that Labour must first and foremost set out to break. It is like a short term crisis measure that has become a long term default, which can only end in tears all round if we cannot find ways of bringing abut a change of social and economic focus.
Correct. What central banks and governments have done all around the world is “kick the can down the road” with austerity and money creation, in anticipation that economic growth was going to come back in a couple of years and save everyone. Unfortunately, they have missed what has become a secular (i.e. not a cyclical) long term downturn.
And now we are all running out of road for the can to be kicked further down.
CV very surprised and impressed .
CV, at your service.
All this talk up and down above about how the utterances of CV equal the real life person of Mr Tat Loo is just hogwash. Isn’t it? I mean, the utterances that fall out of the vto pen do not mirror the real life actualities of the writer. Is this not one of the reasons we have pseudothingys? So that we may post things which are designed for purposes other than reflecting the life and exact thoughts of the writer? Is this not what many writers do?
Ahhhhh, questions of existentialism 🙂
couldn’t possibly say on the grounds of self-incrimination 😀
‘Matter of fact, it’s all Dark’ 😎
Tricky question, vto. Some people who’ve met me in meatspace think I’m far nicer than QoT, others think QoT is me turned up to 11.
My theory is that unless a handle is a sockpuppet deliberately created to carry out some kind of social experiment, it probably reflects an aspect of the writer’s personality. But since none of us are exactly the same person to our family, friends, lovers, coworkers, bosses, taxi drivers or checkout operators anyway, it doesn’t bother me.
Yes you’re right in that there is an aspect of the writer in posts. I find though that points tend to get exaggerated in either direction online and also it seem my manner of writing comes out horribly harder than the thoughts – sometimes I later read back on what has been written and shrink in horror, always way past the edit deadline…
Never mind. Hence the pseudo thingy is good because it allows a freedom in posting and in views that a communication in person would never achieve. The limits in online blog communication highlight aspects of discussion in beneficial ways by deleting all the personal paraphernalia and allowing a clear point to be made.
That is why I write notes to my other two halfs…
Ha… just goes to show how often the internal voice and visual imagination gets things wrong and why face to face communication beats blogs hands down, good on you Tat.
does not apply if you know some faces or form a well-rounded impression, like the ball of string te web is.
Doesn’t show anything of the kind.
Hi HS, nice to see u 🙂
Hi Tat bit of a late comer to the thread and probably the last thing I expected to come across.
I really like what you stand for. Its not a Resource Based Economy but its definitely a number of steps in the right direction.
I wish you all the best and know that from having dealt with you on here that you’ll be a force to be reckoned with. My view from what I’ve seen on here and the politicians I have dealt with is that you will be someone to watch going forward. You’re sharper than the lot of them. I wish you all the best.
Polish Pride – I’m hoping to be part of a really strong team next year. Thanks for your good wishes mate. The resources crunch is coming and the question is, will we be ready in time.
Tat – or CV – I read your post last night and went WOW! My jaw dropped – and then lit up with a great smile which remains on my face many hours later.
Both the content of the post itself – and your finally outing yourself – just reinforced the feelings of hope etc that I have had since Cunliffe finally became Leader of Labour. With people like you and him, there is light at the end of the tunnel, but still a lot of work to do. I joined the LP late last year but had been reconsidering that decision, but now I am contemplating actually getting involved at ground level.
Good on you, Mr Loo! It is only months ago since the CC actions that led to the Viper movement; but the fact that you now feel able to reveal your true identity speaks volumes for the shift that has been occurring in recent weeks. From time to time I have contemplated reverting to my previous pseudonym, but had – and have – decided to retain my present one as a reminder of the circumstances that led to the change. Lest we forget….
While you did not get in in the Dunedin local elections, I note that you got more votes that PG. But I would rather see you running in the general election and using your skills and thinking at a national level anyway. Sorry, as a Wellingtonian, I don’t get to vote for you, but do know a few people in Dunedin who will be recipients of “my guidance”.
Finally, your reference to Bill Sutch and his vision in your post brought back many memories for me as Sutch was a wonderful man who I had a lot of contact with in my childhood and teens – and still admire to this day for his vision and true dedication to a NZ for all NZers.
Thank you for putting your thoughts down, they mean a lot. Yep i am still grinning crazily too! TBH I wouldn’t be excited about sticking my head over the parapets like this if it wasn’t for the ambitious agenda that Labour now has in front of it, and with Cunliffe leading. Being part of a light blue/pale pink Labour Party, for instance, would be pointless. And, yes, things have certainly shifted on from then, LAB/GR at 49.5% not the least of them.
Yes if you don’t know about Bill Sutch you don’t know much about NZ political history. There were public intellectuals in our past that assisted significant societal progress, which is why the neo liberals always shrink the states role apart from that of the state forces. They grab the ‘loot’ for themselves not to share.
The social democrats could have gone even further in New Zealand imo if not for the common strategic fault of the quite influential (until the mid 80s) Marxist groups and parties who viewed social democracy solely as a class enemy rather than “work with and struggle against”. If younger readers doubt this do your research. Prime Minister Muldoon was moved to publicly name via NZSIS information 32 alleged SUP (Socialist Unity Party) members along with NZCP and WCL members in relation to trade union activity and ’81 tour activists.
Good on you Viper it is definitely time for people to come out as the nats go down in a shower of their own shit and Labour members are taking back control of their party. Many kiwis know the impact of 90 day fire at will, wage drops when a new boss takes over, dependent contracting etc. Leadership is required.
Yep TM. Time to shake off the nation’s collective amnesia.
Mad props Tat.
Been toying with the idea of coming out myself and probably will as soon as I get around to joining the Labour party.
Though the pseudonymous freedom to spew random bile on nutjobs still appeals.
Pollywog in Labour?! Awesomesauce!!!
“Though the pseudonymous freedom to spew random bile on nutjobs still appeals.”
Yep know exactly what you mean but there’s always time later on for getting back into it 🙂
pull those strings
I do it all the time myself. The trick is to never be in a position where they can do effective to you in the “real world” with jobs or whatever. Fortunately I am, and I really don’t mind tearing into people in the “real world” as well if I think that is required.
My job’s a wee bit sensitive to PR, so really I’d probably have to jump or be pushed if some of my more picturesque opinions were distributed, for fear of losing a catastrophic number of clients (although one or two might approve, too). Although I am free with much the same opinions and language at the pub.
Funnily enough, I don’t get into as many barroom confrontations as one might expect. 🙂
now I understand one of the reasons you want a lower moral bar on local and central reps behaviour… you are obviously a man to party with. 😉
Thanks in advance for taking up alot of rwnj time crawling back over every cv post ever made.
best of luck.
Hi Tracey! Ahhh the rumour mill lol. Nb did you hear Michelle Boag’s advice for the future Len Browns of politics: find a married woman with a rich husband, and who therefore cannot afford to let the secret out. On no account choose a much younger woman with nothing to lose!!!!!
The things you find in the National Party candidate manual eh.
Welcome to the real world Tat Loo and good luck.
I chose the Red Pill, and if asked, I’d do it again.
If there are any other politicians or politician-aspirants still using pseudonyms, check out the 320+ comments on this site.
Time to come out and really make this site work to your full political advantage.
Far better to choose The Standard than Whaleoil, should go into the beginners handbook for all new political wannabes.
Rogue I am not a politician
Have you ever considered writing an ebook or guest authoring on other blogs?
I have a blog based upon on the same subjects you discuss and would
really like to have you share some stories/information. I know my visitors would appreciate your work.
If you’re even remotely interested, feel free to shoot me an e-mail.