Terrorist’s Writing Banned

101 comments on “Terrorist’s Writing Banned ”

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1. Siobhan 1

   23 March 2019 at 3:20 pm

   Meantime you can buy Mein Kampf for NZ$23 off Book Depository.

   Or The Norwegian Shooters book off Amazon for £36…though they have since taken it down, funny the things you don’t notice till someone makes it an international story.

   Personally I don’t understand banning stuff like this, it just makes it an ‘underground hit’ with all the wrong people. Its a classic ‘Don’t Press the Red Button’ type situation.

   “Although Bavarian authorities were initially reluctant to see Hitler’s text republished, the IfZ suggests fears that it could be seized on by the far-right in a spasm of Nazi revivalism were misplaced: instead, it suggests that data on purchases shows that buyers are just people interested in history and politics generally. That seems likely: genuinely committed fascists have had copies of the book in samizdat circulation for a long time, even before the rise of the internet made it much easier to circulate banned texts.”

   https://www.huckmag.com/perspectives/opinion-perspectives/people-buying-mein-kampf-panicking/

   https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/12/books-milestones-terrorism
   • Macro 1.1

     23 March 2019 at 4:50 pm

     Nevertheless Siobhan – you had better burn your copy!
   • Exkiwiforces 1.2

     23 March 2019 at 5:15 pm

     Save your money, it’s not a good read anyway and it’s a good book to put you sleep I can you lol. As I’m still struck on pg 109 to pg 110 since 1999 and I also have his Vol 2 since 2010. I only brought the books because I had been reading about a chap in Luftwaffe at time by the name of General Walter Weaver, who had read both books and was for the Strategic Bomber “Ural Bomber” as he understood Herr Hitler’s long term Strategic intentions unlike some in the higher echelons of the Wehrmacht atm.
     • corodale 1.2.1

       24 March 2019 at 11:59 pm

       Hitler was certainly successful with setting up the European Central Bank in Frankfurt.
   • A 1.3

     23 March 2019 at 6:00 pm

     Without a ban we’d be allowing marketing via massacre.

     Those royalties go somewhere.
   • lprent 1.4

     23 March 2019 at 9:03 pm

     As a complete aside and in the interests of mischief.

     Who wants to be the first person to point at the post on Whaleoil that had it up from the day of the shooting?

     I haven’t looked to see if it is still there myself. But it is the only site that I know to have posted it.
     • solkta 1.4.1

       23 March 2019 at 9:19 pm
       • WeTheBleeple 1.4.1.1

         23 March 2019 at 11:50 pm

         Blast from the past. Such a good album in its time. I remembered this word for word soon as I heard the opening bar but he messed it up.

         😀

         Perfect song to refer to WO blog too.
     • McFlock 1.4.2

       23 March 2019 at 11:37 pm

       Fucking hell.
   • corodale 1.5

     24 March 2019 at 11:56 pm

     A Swiss classic – but in all honesty, if the Jews hadn’t become so moderate and well integrated, the reptilian overlords would have left them in peace.
2. Dennis Frank 2

   23 March 2019 at 3:22 pm

   Your point about user manuals seems valid. My earlier response to banning the shooter’s name was a mental eye-roll, but it didn’t bother me. Whataboutism is a popular sport here, so I’ll leave the question of including other mass killers to those so inclined.

   I wouldn’t want his manifesto on my computer, so I share your desire not to have it here. There’s a contaminating effect. In the psyche, I mean (not in the machine).

   I see Tim Watkin put up something relevant on Pundit earlier today. “I’m wary of those who want to ignore his actions and leave them to the darkness. Just as love can only overcome evil, only understanding and transparency can overcome ignorance and dark deeds.”

   I think he means only love can overcome evil. I agree we need understanding to overcome the evil belief system, but that can be done via selective quotation to make a specific point re ideology & motive.

   You may not feel such understanding ought to be worked for here. If so, I hope you will declare that at some point and explain why. I see no reason to discriminate against leftists: I believe they are just as capable of enlightenment as anyone else.
3. patricia bremner 3

   23 March 2019 at 3:38 pm

   Thanks for this TE REO TUPAKE, I agree with your sentiment. Personally I see this as being like his name. Something we don’t want. It appears to be a rehash of others views so it has been reported. Let us concentrate on taking the best out of this situation and not adding to people’s trauma to satisfy curiosity and to instead minimize harm.

   Now we need to shame the voyeurs of pain and distress and the site providers into wiping the shooting tape where ever possible.
   Those who start on about free speech need to consider why we have censorship which is sparely applied. Shanks is not known for banning things willy nilly.
4. marty mars 4

   23 March 2019 at 3:43 pm

   Good news. I am impressed with our collective response to this murderer and his flea bitten ideas.
5. Psycho Milt 5

   23 March 2019 at 3:59 pm

   Presumably the fuckwit included incitements to violence against his target groups in his screed, which would mean there’s no freedom of speech issue arising from banning it.
   • woodart 5.1

     23 March 2019 at 4:07 pm

     we’ve had the freedom of speech clowns wanting two canadian racists to be allowed to regurgitate their tripe. freedom of speech comes with a responsibility, that seems to bypass these people. unfortunatley some of them will come out from their caves for a whinge. hopefully the other 99.9% of responsible kiwis will give them the raspberry they deserve.
6. RedLogix 6

   23 March 2019 at 4:18 pm

   There are two arguments here; posted on any responsible media or moderated platform it would have been eventually banned as a direct and illegal incitement to violence. If I saw anything slightly like this as a moderator, it would be gone immediately.

   At the same time, in the light of the horrendous crime that has happened, we do all the wrong things if we seek to protect ourselves from that which we fear. In the aftermath of the Nazi holocaust we made a massive effort to uncover all the details of what happened, confront the full horror of it, not only in the act itself but a full forensic understanding of why.

   I have not read it, nor do I intend to anytime soon. Maybe later when we can safely separate the words from the crime, but for now I’m going to leave it be.
7. One Two 7

   23 March 2019 at 4:36 pm

   Perhaps revisionism will become a legitimate career path…

   Documented history preceeds revisionism….

   If history is not documented, reviewed, evaluated, understood and learned from…’it didn’t happen’…

   Humanity exists in strange and ‘dangerous’ times…

   ‘Herd mentality’ is one of the greatest ‘dangers’…if not the greatest danger to ‘humanity’…

   ‘The herd’ is seemingly oblivious to its perilous self created state of deception…
8. Chris T 8

   23 March 2019 at 5:26 pm

   This banning thing (apart from the guns) is getting a tad knee jerky for me.

   Are terrorist and psychology experts allowed to have it for study and teaching or is everyone supposed to pretend it didn’t exist and have a mass memory wipe, MiB style?
   • bwaghorn 8.1

     23 March 2019 at 6:36 pm

     They should go further they should erase his birth certificate and any other government documents he should just be a number kept in a cell till he dies . Personally I’d have a pull cord light firmly attached to his cell ceiling and a small stool as his only comforts
     • Sam 8.1.1

       23 March 2019 at 6:47 pm

       That the government or even corperate power even entertains the idea of telling every one what to do or think is even more dangerous than banning. Government or corporate power shouldn’t have any more rights than the people gift them.

       Just take a look at third world nations with extreme poverty and harm to woman and children, banning terrorist bibles won’t help them one bit, so banning terrorist bibles have absolutely no effect on harm reduction. If we truely wanted to smash terrorist propaganda we’d go after the people who sought out terrorist reading material and defeate there appetite and thirst for such material in front of their mates so that they know in their heart that we come correct and they are wrong.
   • Maggie 8.2

     23 March 2019 at 10:42 pm

     I’m not sure why you’re associating the banning with pretending it didn’t exist?
     Two points:
     1) The time immediately after an attack like this is ripe for copy-cat acts and the frothy-mouthed far-right neo nazis aren’t really known for their critical thinking.
     2) The manifesto is nothing more than a tool to further the authors desperate desire for attention and adulation. It’s deliberately obfuscatory which is a sure sign that the intent he espouses is merely camouflage.

     It doesn’t take an expert to figure out what his problem is nor will any remedy be found in analysing his empty rhetoric.
     • Macro 8.2.1

       24 March 2019 at 1:21 pm

       Thank you Maggie for your extremely insightful comments.
   • McFlock 8.3

     23 March 2019 at 11:49 pm

     Anyone can apply for an exemption, it’s just judged on a case by case basis.

     So not only academics can apply, and artist could apply to make a giant papier mache pyramid out of pages of various works of hate, and then set fire to it to reveal on the inside a giant koru made of hearts. And other arty stuff.

     44 Applications for exemption

     (1)

     Where any publication has been classified under this Act as an objectionable publication or a restricted publication, any person may apply to the Classification Office for an exemption from the provisions of this Act in respect of that publication.

     (2)

     Every application shall be in the form provided for that purpose by the Chief Censor and shall be accompanied by the prescribed fee (if any).

     (3)

     On receiving an application under this section in relation to a publication, the Classification Office,—
     (a)

     after taking into account the matters referred to in section 3; and
     (b)

     if it is satisfied that the publication should be made available to a limited class of persons or to a particular person for educational, professional, scientific, literary, artistic, or technical purposes,—

     may exempt that class of persons or that person from the provisions of this Act in respect of that publication for such period as the Classification Office thinks fit.
9. Exkiwiforces 9

   23 March 2019 at 5:47 pm

   I think the right/ Far right white supremacy muppets have a little more to worry about atm than someone banning their books or manuals etc.

   The word on the streets around Hornby/ Hei Hei areas is that utu is coming for them. The Maori, Pacific Islander, other associated gangs and organisations who are organisation themselves from Bluff to Cape atm both on the outside and inside the prisons as they had seen the Muslim community as guests in NZ were to be treated as such, be respected and be protected.

   This ……… has lit a fuse and the clock it ticking and time isn’t on the slide of the right or far right supremacy muppets, but on the other side as can they launch utu at their time and day of their choosing.
   • Chris T 9.1

     23 March 2019 at 6:02 pm

     Yes

     Because the gangs of NZ are well known for their campaign for peace and harmony between cultures and the community.
     • greywarshark 9.1.1

       23 March 2019 at 8:56 pm

       You can’t help dripping your poison of negativity Chris T. More effort needed to control those thoughts that lead to an unhappy society.
       • Chris T 9.1.1.1

         23 March 2019 at 9:11 pm

         Get back to me when they start obeying the new gun bans and hand shit in.

         And I am answering a post seemingly gleeful at violence.
   • RedLogix 9.2

     23 March 2019 at 6:18 pm

     Alarming how many people are so keen to complete our terrorist’s work for him.
     • One Two 9.2.1

       23 March 2019 at 6:46 pm

       Are you surprised, RL…Sincelely?
       • RedLogix 9.2.1.1

         23 March 2019 at 8:23 pm

         No. I wrote at length a few nights ago about the process by which Yugoslavia unraveled. It got ignored. What people pretend to ignore sometimes tells you more than what they say.
         • One Two 9.2.1.1.1

           23 March 2019 at 9:59 pm

           Yes, it certainly does tell more.

           I’ve chosen to read a limited number of posts/comment sections surrounding the events, to get a feel for whether progression or regression is more likely an outcome…

           A small number of handles have offered considered or cautious response when compared against those who endorse or find favour in attempts to consign events to the digital dustbin of ‘permanent censorship’ and wiped memories…

           I would not pretend to know what those folks actually believe can be gained by burying collective heads in the sand and digitized book burning , or how such actions enable evolutuon of our species by avoiding the plethora of learning which such events can offer society as a whole…

           Sure the events are fresh and raw with high levels of emotion and the ‘need to be seen to take action’, the public and private responses have been unsurprising and predictable…

           At this early point in the timeline, indications are that the opportunities to learn from the events are being buried along with the bodies and by the ostrich impersonators…

           Throughout history, progress and change has been driven out of the minority whose thoughts and philosophies are genuinely progressive…

           It can only be hoped that during this time of unparalleled transition, the book burners do not prevail…the outcomes of that eventuating are likely to lead to outcomes far worse, than they believe their thoughts and actions are preventing…
           • RedLogix 9.2.1.1.1.1

             23 March 2019 at 10:26 pm

             I’ve said this before; we clearly understand the right goes too far when it’s extremists make claims of racial superiority; while the equivalent marker on the left is when it claims intellectual and moral superiority.
           • Maggie 9.2.1.1.1.2

             24 March 2019 at 12:45 am

             The manifesto is irrelevant. And so to is the shooter. It’s not the “book burners” that should concern you but the reactive intellectualising of his motives. There’s more than one way to bury one’s head and what I see is a lot of people distracted by a vicious dog asking themselves “I wonder why he bit those people and can we figure out how to stop vicious dogs from biting.”
             We need to be figuring out how we can best guide our boys through this “time of unparalleled transition” because if we don’t, more will come.

             Nobody really wants to talk about our disenchanted ‘lost boys’ and I get that it’s a prickly conversation but at what point do we put down our egos and decide to actually do something about our self-destructing male population?

             Change has to happen, we all know that and it is for the better but did we perhaps forget to support and guide our boys/men during this transition?
             • Exkiwiforces …

               24 March 2019 at 1:21 am

               Yes Maggie you are correct, but I would also add their lost females which you don’t hear much about either.

               The pollies need to change and understand they govern for all New Zealanders and the selected few. We need too finally kick this Neo Con/ Lib economic BS out of every corner of NZ’s society both in the public service and private sector for once all or the other option is going to be very ugly and nasty for probably all concern.

               If push came to shove most of my mates both female or male will back the Maoris, Pacific Islanders and other associates any day of week over the white trash of the Right, Alt, Far right white muppets.
             • Macro …

               24 March 2019 at 2:09 pm

               Exactly!
     • Exkiwiforces 9.2.2

       23 March 2019 at 6:57 pm

       If what I’m hearing is true, there won’t be many white/ Far right supremacy muppets left NZ which could be a good thing long term. These muppets are btw very out numbered in the Hornby/ Hei Hei area (and I probably could say throughout NZ as well) very a large margin anyway and we all know where they live as we went to school with, and with our kids as well and where they drink throughout the Hornby/ Hei Hei area.

       PS, we also outnumber them in the prisons as well by a good margin.

       Refugees in our area (Hornby/ Hei Hei) were treated as family, with respect, share each other’s culture be it sport, food, the outdoors etc and be protected as they have had tougher ride through life than you and I as my mum and grandma said me.
       • Psycho Milt 9.2.2.1

         23 March 2019 at 7:06 pm

         If what I’m hearing is true, there won’t be many white/ Far right supremacy muppets left NZ which could be a good thing long term.

         Perhaps they’ll be thoughtful enough to gather in one or two buildings occasionally, so your gang member heroes could go and shoot them at their convenience? As a “good thing long term,” if I’m understanding you correctly?
         • Exkiwiforces 9.2.2.1.1

           23 March 2019 at 7:55 pm

           We/ They do have standards and prefer do it the old fashioned way. Shooting unarmed people going about their business during a place of worshiping is just not cricket old chum.

           They are not my gang members heroes either old chum, I went to school with awful lot of Islanders, Maori and good respectful workclass kids we respect each other unlike the right/ Far right white supremacy muppets and their asshole kids.

           Yes some mates/ female mates are in the gangs, some are still on dole or DPB or whatever ever other benefit they are on, some have made a quid, some are doing great or living day to day either by choice, bad decisions of their making or the result of the Neo Lib/ Con economic BS of the last 30 or 40yrs. But in the end we respect each other, at home, out shopping, playing sport and most cases we can down sit to have beer/ tea or coffee with each and talk about life in general or the old times.

           The right/ Far right white supremacy muppets have a chip on their shoulder, blame everyone from left wing Pollies, religion, skin colour, gender, sex, people on a benefit etc for their misfortune or a lack of money because of the amount of taxes they have to pay, think Herr Hitler and his merry lot are the best thing since slice bread. All they talk about is want to reclaim their white racial purity and send every bugger back to their rightful place etc etc.
           • Higherstandard 9.2.2.1.1.1

             23 March 2019 at 9:44 pm

             The day started off so beautifully on open Mike – what a disappointment it is to see a comment like this.
             • Exkiwiforces …

               23 March 2019 at 11:00 pm

               Yes sometimes the truth hurts, as Tame lti as said about CHCH racism this was going to happen one day and now all because this ……. lit the fuse last Friday. This has been like gangue wound that has had bandage on to long and it was off because the of incompetent Doctor. It’s a foul smell these wounds from my experience and the leg is going to come off one way or another.
               • RedLogix …

                 23 March 2019 at 11:18 pm

                 You clearly have something in mind, how about saying it.
       • greywarshark 9.2.2.2

         23 March 2019 at 9:03 pm

         You might be interested in links marty mars put up in Open Mike at No. 8.

         https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/385265/christchurch-shooting-prompts-increase-in-korero-on-racism-tame-iti

         He also put up youtube Ted talk by Tame Iti on mana. Good.

         Hope you are not being deluged by yet another cyclone – 4 they said.
         • Exkiwiforces 9.2.2.2.1

           23 March 2019 at 10:11 pm

           Cheers for that, I’ll have at Tame Iti YouTube clip tomorrow if the rain sets in.

           We have been slowly getting the effects of Fred’s mate Trevor, the last couple of have been windy with high temperatures, with high humidity and some wet season storms thrown in. We had a good old fashion wet season power failure last night, with today stinking hot with rain and storms from about 2-3 o’clock this afternoon and we hoping this will be like this until about Monday.

           So this means backing the study for me and hopefully finish at least two my Models ships if keeps raining while checking up the thoughts and lively discussion on The Standard.

           It’s been a very poor wet season so far and it’s been dry as a badgers backside for most of the NT until now.
           • RedLogix 9.2.2.2.1.1

             23 March 2019 at 11:19 pm

             And Brisbane remains stinking even for late March.
     • Exkiwiforces 9.2.3

       24 March 2019 at 12:32 am

       Well this ……. has managed to change the NZ Firearms Law, piss off every swinging dick in the Muslim world- mainly the type you really don’t want to piss off, almost turned Australia inside out, the Alt/ Far right white supremacy Yanks have gone bat shit crazy from all accounts over this……, put AirNZ almost into a flat spin, made the Australian and NZ spooks including the NZ Police Intelligence goons look stupid and to top it off NZ Tourism is more likely to a hit especially from China judging by CCP Government actions post 48- 72hrs after Fridays event.

       Since 9/11 the Western World has to change its way of life and yes including little old NZ and most of those changes were the result of the paranoia of the Septics aka Yanks.
       • RedLogix 9.2.3.1

         24 March 2019 at 12:46 am

         Check out the timeline and get back to me on where he was in October 2018, just six months ago.

         https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111387121/the-banality-of-evil–alleged-shooters-20-months-in-dunedin

         For a racist white supremacist who hates Muslims, it does seem an odd choice of holiday destination.

         We still lack information, but it does seem at this stage he came here specifically because as an Australian he would not raise suspicion, he could buy and train with MSSA’s legally, and as long as he kept his mouth shut no-one could possibly know what he was going to do. I truly do not see how ANY security force might deal with that.

         Unless you know about some secret mind-reading technology the military have developed …
         • Exkiwiforces 9.2.3.1.1

           24 March 2019 at 1:03 am

           Well it does appear he did use his NSW firearms license as back way into getting a NZ firearms license, there have a concerns from other firearms users about this …… and concerns about the activities at Bruce Range Sth of Dunedin reported to the police or local police firearms officer with little or no action by the police.

           The lack of intelligence oversight into the Australian and NZ Right, Alt and Far right Political activities by the spooks and Police Intelligence goons either side of the ditch.

           CHCH police not following up the concerns of Muslim community at security and pass trouble at their main place of worship and at gatherings held by the Muslim community.
           • RedLogix 9.2.3.1.1.1

             24 March 2019 at 1:27 am

             and concerns about the activities at Bruce Range Sth of Dunedin reported to the police or local police firearms officer with little or no action by the police.

             Which may or may not have anything to do with our Australian. From all accounts he used the place to train, not to socialise. The club President was sincerely shocked by what happened and seems to have had no more clue about what was going to happen than anyone else.

             I would speculate that he chose the Bruce club because it was small, and a good place to keep a low profile.

             So while the club may have indeed had some idiots, even if the police had taken action, it’s not clear this would have had any impact on subsequent events.

             The lack of intelligence oversight into the Australian and NZ Right, Alt and Far right Political activities by the spooks and Police Intelligence goons either side of the ditch.

             Again it’s not clear yet whether he had any relevant contact with any of these people in Australa/NZ. His radicalisation seems to have occurred elsewhere.

             CHCH police not following up the concerns of Muslim community at security and pass trouble at their main place of worship and at gatherings held by the Muslim community.

             Demands for increased security are easy to make in hindsight. But before the event much less so; the world is full of so many potential threats no police force can reasonably respond to them all.

             For example, there are probably a bunch of white extremists in ChCh right now who could make a very credible case for Police protection. Do you think it should be provided?
             • Exkiwiforces …

               24 March 2019 at 1:55 am

               The Police are there to up hold Law and to Protect (not sure if that’s the NZ Police motto?)

               If they ask for it and them I would expect the NZ Police to provide any necessary requirements for the at hand.

               I’m sure what the reaction would be here at The Standard or if public knew about, if it were to accrue? Could make for some lively conversation either way.
       • Exkiwiforces 9.2.3.2

         24 March 2019 at 12:52 am

         PS, heck they have now ban his manifesto. The Right, Far and Alt right would be saying “see they are taking our MSSA Rifles, and now our free speech and what other freedoms are we going to lose? Our money too for those dumb Muslims, Pacific Islanders, Maoris and dumb white lazy apologists who don’t believe in white supremacy or white Aryan freedoms and our right freedom of association as well?
   • Robert Guyton 9.3

     23 March 2019 at 9:00 pm

     Ouch!
   • Maggie 9.4

     23 March 2019 at 10:46 pm

     That would be a huge mistake. Tit for tat violence never ends. It just increases the risk of innocent people being hurt.
10. Duggie 10

    23 March 2019 at 6:11 pm

    There’s a famous line in the movie ‘A few good men’ where Jack Nicholson declares ‘You can’t handle the truth’. Obviously this screed is the complete opposite of the truth, but what bothers me is the assumption that we can’t handle falsehoods either; racist rants and deranged manifestos. The government has decided that we need to be protected from them because we’re so gullible that we’ll fall prey to their toxic message just by reading them. Nobody admits that about themselves, of course, it’s always the other intellectually weak person who needs protecting from what they shouldn’t read. Today’s announcement is a huge insult to the intelligence of the NZ public.
    • Robert Guyton 10.1

      23 March 2019 at 8:58 pm

      There’s a movie? With Jack Nicholson in it?
      Gullible? The viewing public?
      Probably…
11. In Vino 11

    23 March 2019 at 6:58 pm

    A little extreme, Duggie. I rather think a vast majority of the NZ general public would see through and reject the content. The problem is that we have some weirdos who through being emotionally stunted or socially frustrated fail to see through it, and feed on it, perhaps going on to repeat the cold-blooded mass murder stuff. We have to accept that our society is not perfectly educated, and we have some risky nutjobs, who, like young children, need protection from certain material.
    • Chris T 11.1

      23 March 2019 at 7:11 pm

      So just let the govt decide what we allowed to read.

      I think they have tried that a few times over history.

      Didn’t go too well from memory.
      • In Vino 11.1.1

        23 March 2019 at 8:13 pm

        Again, an extreme position. Our Govt hardly makes a habit of doing this – this is a special occasion, and I would not see the ban as permanent, or preventing academics etc from wanting to study the script if they ask to do so. It is not quite like Hitler banning Heine’s poetry, or Stalin banning Rachmaninov’s music. Hitler and Stalin banned and burnt heaps… We ban almost nothing in comparison to them. Maybe you should be more concerned at what is effectively banned by virtue of our media being privately-owned, and representing the viewpoint of their owners – a rich, right-wing and capitalist sector.
        • Chris T 11.1.1.1

          23 March 2019 at 9:29 pm

          I am concerned at all the bannings by the people running the show, pretty much, apart from the video, which should be.

          Not sure what point you are trying to make.
          • In Vino 11.1.1.1.1

            23 March 2019 at 9:40 pm

            Your position is extreme, but you now sound simplistic, and wanting to be so.
            • Chris T 11.1.1.1.1.1

              23 March 2019 at 10:29 pm

              I say I don’t want govts controlling what we can read in NZ.

              You bring up Hitler and Stalin, and you are calling me extreme?
              • In Vino …

                24 March 2019 at 12:06 am

                I was quoting Hitler and Stalin as bad examples.
                D’oh??
              • Psycho Milt …

                24 March 2019 at 9:05 am

                I say I don’t want govts controlling what we can read in NZ.

                The Office of Film and Literature Classification has existed for a very long time under many governments, and has banned publications on many occasions. Is there a reason that’s suddenly agitating you only now that it’s banned a right-wing extremist publication?
      • Robert Guyton 11.1.2

        23 March 2019 at 8:56 pm

        Your memory is…not what you believe it to be.
      • patricia bremner 11.1.3

        23 March 2019 at 9:26 pm

        So every piece of filth should be published? In case we miss something?
        I trust the judgement of the current critics and have better things to do.
        I also don’t want youth/ young children exposed to to it or the film.
        Perhaps I am “closing my eyes and ears”… but…
        I don’t see the powers that be being draconian.
        However the tenor of comments by some in MSM RNZ TV3 Granny Herald .. Now they remove, twist delete choose. Haven’t seen you complain.
    • woodart 11.2

      23 March 2019 at 7:41 pm

      good post in vino. pity some others on here dont realise this…..
      • One Two 11.2.1

        23 March 2019 at 8:04 pm

        In Vinos comment is extremely naive…as is your endorsement of it…

        Ironically the ’emotionally stunted weirdos’ IV believes are in need of protection…

        Are those who believe having govt mandating what can/can’t be read…is positive…

        It is regressive act, which will be expanded to include more material which the govt believes the public is too stupid and gullible to avoid or filter…

        Which subject matter is next?
        • In Vino 11.2.1.1

          23 March 2019 at 8:30 pm

          A valid concern, One Two, but premature? The minute I think bans are being unreasonably expanded, I will rush to join you on the barricades.
          From your stance, I wonder if you believe in no censorship at all? Free access to all pornography for people of all ages?
          I repeat from my last message: ” Maybe you should be more concerned at what is effectively banned by virtue of our media being privately-owned, and representing the viewpoint of their owners – a rich, right-wing and capitalist sector.”
          This problem causes us far more censorship of certain attitudes, ideas, and even facts, than the odd ban like this one by the Govt. I find your position more naïve than my own, thank you.
12. Sacha 12

    23 March 2019 at 7:39 pm

    The Office of Film & Literature Classification is not ‘the government’. They have a well-defined law they operate under and their decisions are always made public.

    From what little I have heard, this latest dipshit’s highschool essay adds nothing new to the world’s knowledge about what makes inadequate young white men kill others.
    • Chris T 12.1

      23 March 2019 at 7:44 pm

      It is a government office.
      • Sacha 12.1.1

        23 March 2019 at 8:06 pm

        How about you link to their instructions this week from the government about censoring this particular publication in a particular way? Nah, didn’t think so.

        It would have been banned last month and it’s the same now. There’s no public podium for hateful nasty shitheads. If you are desperate for their wise reckons, sidle up to one in your local phonebooth – or move to Australia or the US.
        • RedLogix 12.1.1.1

          23 March 2019 at 8:17 pm

          It’s a govt office and answerable to Parliament in the usual way.

          Yes the author of such a rant would have been banned at any time; indeed as I pointed out above the moderators on this site (and that included me for many years) are scrupulous in dealing to any threat of criminal violence direct or indirect.

          At the same time the actual rant itself remains evidence of his culpability and is of specific interest around the details of his reasoning, warped and monstrous as it is.

          I understand why people do not want to see it just yet; I don’t and I’m not sure if or when I will. But I don’t think we can hide from it forever.
13. DS 13

    23 March 2019 at 10:55 pm

    i wholeheartedly agree with both the changes in the gun laws, and in cracking down on the distribution of that video.

    I don’t agree with banning the manifesto. Is it an incredibly vile piece of work? Yes (I have read the thing, but don’t worry – I don’t have it on file or anything). But here’s the thing – everything from Mein Kampf, to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, to the Turner Diaries, is already floating around out there. There are entire Youtube channels that parrot the same filth as the manifesto (hell, the gunman likely watched them), not to mention messageboards. Banning the manifesto does absolutely nothing beyond giving the arsehole satisfaction that he’s provoked us into cracking down on freedom of speech.

    Rip the manifesto to shreds. Mock it for its pathetic arguments. Call up the right-wing “fellow-travellers” for the weasels they are. But banning it is a mistake. It allows him to win – one of his stated motivations was to provoke a “leftist overreaction” that will in turn provoke the Right.
    • Maggie 13.1

      24 March 2019 at 12:02 am

      “one of his stated motivations was …”
      One point in support of the ban is because many people do exactly what you just did; assume the author is truthful in his writing. He wrote a narrative that best served his purpose; to get attention, to feel special. His manifesto was all over the place, full of false modesty as he set himself as a hero/martyr. He deliberately name drops people who have a massive following in the hopes it would garner more attention. The ban doesn’t limit his freedom of speech, it just deprives him of the audience he wanted.
      • DS 13.1.1

        24 March 2019 at 3:22 am

        Yes, he wanted to get attention.

        However, he clearly stated that he wanted to provoke a “left-wing overreaction” (i.e. he’s a far-right accelerationist), a statement that makes no sense as a lie. He’s wrong in his reasoning, of course – accelerationism never works – but turning this into a debate about freedom of speech allows far-right scum to claim the moral high ground.
        • Maggie 13.1.1.1

          24 March 2019 at 1:10 pm

          I didn’t say he was lying. For it to be a lie he would have to believe that statement was false (and it could still be).
          What I’m saying is that he’s attempting to deceive the reader by having them believe he’s racially motivated in his actions when in fact his motivation is a desire for recognition, attention and validation. The rhetoric is nothing more than a script, a collection of theme appropriate statements designed to camouflage his true intent.
          This is an important distinction because we need to focus on why he and so many others are choosing such extreme modes in an attempt to make concrete the abstract, to create a material reality where they are valued and recognisable; both to themselves and the world.
          • Dennis Frank 13.1.1.1.1

            24 March 2019 at 1:47 pm

            I’m inclined to agree re your diagnosis of his psyche, but cannot re “he’s attempting to deceive the reader by having them believe he’s racially motivated”. I’ve seen no evidence of that latter bit. I’ve seen quotes from his manifesto that refer to crusader ideology, and the French-originated replacement theory, which suggests his motivation is produced by identifying Islamic immigration as a threat.

            A court in NSW recently rejected a prosecution on the basis that islam is not a race – which most of us already knew anyway.
            • Macro 13.1.1.1.1.1

              24 March 2019 at 2:00 pm

              You might like to read this essay:

              How the Christchurch shooter used memes to spread hate
              Learning from years of online right-wing extremism, the shooter made his manifesto a weaponized shitpost.

              https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/3/16/18266930/christchurch-shooter-manifesto-memes-subscribe-to-pewdiepie

              The shooter appears to have been very familiar with extremist corners of the internet. The choices he made — to post a manifesto to a known radical community, and to carry out the attack as if he were doing it “for the lulz” — are unlikely to have been made at random.

              Instead, they were most likely designed to entertain his fellow extremists and, above all, to help them see him as someone to admire and even copy. The memetic elements of the manifesto were also most likely designed to provoke the media and the public into sharing it and debating the shooter’s actions — thereby increasing the attention, virality, and public debate surrounding the attack, and further spreading the manifesto within the mainstream.

              All of this is important to understand, not only to keep public attention focused on the shooter’s unthinkable actions instead of memes but because using memes to normalize unconscionable beliefs and behavior has become an established messaging tool for the far right.

              By drawing on meme culture, and naming a polarizing central figure within meme culture, the alleged shooter ensured that debate would arise around those details, rather than uniting people in standing against hateful rhetoric and violent acts.

              This cycle is already beginning to take effect, with many lining up to dismiss the role that memes have played in advancing far-right ideology, even though the New Zealand shooter literally described his horrific actions as an escalation of online shitposting.

              The whole point of these types of memes is that they are not meant to be taken seriously, right up until the moment where they become very serious. Take it from the anonymous owner of an established anti-Semitic YouTube channel, who described his own strategy of spreading his hateful rhetoric as follows: “Pretend to joke about it until the punchline /really/ lands.”

              The article is well worth the read – but I would forget the shitpost – it’s only there to spread hate and foster violence.
              • Dennis Frank …

                24 March 2019 at 2:34 pm

                Haven’t finished reading it yet but I get that the manifesto is likely to be a deceit strategy. If this online subculture is onto how to use mimetic theory, then they are learning from someone who is clever (not just intellectual). The ruse is sophisticated, yet the users front as simple-minded so as not to seem a threat. I see Maggie posted at 12.45am to this effect already.

                “There are three main parts to this process, and they each function toward obscuring reality with the intention of spreading the extremist rhetoric contained within:
                Using memes to trick people into dismissing a message as “just a joke” and not serious.
                Relying on members of the public to spend time dissecting, responding to, and being distracted by the memetic format of the message.
                Concealing the “actual” message within the “joke” of the meme, so that it spreads in all seriousness while the meme gets amplified and discussed.”

                “One of the most significant and pernicious ways that right-wing extremists use trolling, shitposting, and memes is to distort what their actual message is, so they can claim plausible deniability that their message is harmful or bad. That way, even when their extremism is clearly shown to be sincere, the irony surrounding the message clouds the truth. The shooter’s manifesto is a textbook example of this.”
                • Macro …

                  24 March 2019 at 2:53 pm

                  Yes Maggie and DS are saying it much better than I ever could.

                  There is another excellent article on Vox which was published a couple of days prior to the Chch tragedy.
                  I have referred to it previously here on Open Mike – but I think it bears repeating because not only it is an interview with a remarkable young woman, but it also gives us an insight into how best to work towards reducing if not eradicating violent extremism.

                  https://www.vox.com/world/2019/1/14/18151799/extremism-white-supremacy-jihadism-deeyah-khan

                  This filmmaker spent months interviewing neo-Nazis and jihadists. Here’s what she learned.
                  Deeyah Khan, a Muslim woman, met her enemies — and came away more hopeful than ever.

                  What’s the best way to fight racism and extremism?

                  The impulse to dismiss extremists as unreachable fanatics is strong and at times justifiable. But perhaps it’s not always the most effective means of combating them. Deeyah Khan, a journalist and filmmaker, has decided to engage them directly as human beings.

                  In two documentary films, White Right: Meeting the Enemy and Jihad: A Story of the Others (both of which are currently streaming on Netflix), Khan sits down with white supremacists and jihadists (respectively) and tries to understand what’s really motivating them. It’s an attempt to cut through the rhetoric and the ideological trappings and find out why so many young men — and yes, it’s primarily young men — are drawn to extremist movements.

                  I gather that Netflix in NZ is not at this moment carrying these documentaries however there is a trailer on youtube.
                  • Dennis Frank …

                    24 March 2019 at 3:23 pm

                    Yes, here’s a key point she makes: “Part of the reason people subscribe to these movements is that they feel shunned in their lives, in their personal lives or in wider society. These movements are deeply rooted in a sense of victimhood, real or imagined. So if we exclude them, if we shout at them, if we condemn them, that completely feeds into that. And then the monster gets bigger, not smaller. ”

                    And here’s another: “I tried to understand the core psychological draw of these movements. I found that a sense of belonging or purpose was a major factor. These people join these groups and suddenly they have a sense of meaning in life, a belief that they matter, that their voice matters. It’s as though they were once invisible and now they’re seen.”

                    Looks she she inadvertently triggered social alchemy: “I never believed I would remain friends with any of these white supremacists, that some of them would walk away from their movement after we interacted. But that’s what happened, and I still can’t quite believe it. If you would’ve told me that when I started, I would’ve laughed at you, but here we are.”

                    She’s extremely brave, and resolute. As artists go, exemplary.
                  • Incognito …

                    24 March 2019 at 3:47 pm

                    Deeyah Khan, a journalist and filmmaker, has decided to engage them directly as human beings.

                    This is so opposite from what I’ve been reading, here and elsewhere, and it bears repeating.

                    It is counter-intuitive, but reaching out to those “little, weak, sad, pathetic online buddies” might be the (only?) way to a solution.
                    • Macro …

                      24 March 2019 at 3:57 pm

                      This is so opposite from what I’ve been reading, here and elsewhere, and it bears repeating.

                      It is counter-intuitive,

                      Yes that is what is so “revolutionary” about it.

                      It is however not new. There are many examples from history of just what can happen when people meet in a genuine exchange of friendship.
              • Maggie …

                26 March 2019 at 6:30 pm

                Excellent links, thank you.
            • Maggie 13.1.1.1.1.2

              26 March 2019 at 6:05 pm

              It’s hard for me to outline how I got to that conclusion without writing an essay. Brevity isn’t a strength of mine 🙂
              There is plenty of evidence in his manifesto but it’s not explicit but rather implicit.
              – He spends far more time talking about himself than his cause.
              – He goes to extreme lengths to assure the reader he is normal
              – His arguments for his cause are poorly thought out and weak.
              – He sets himself up as a martyr

              Here’s the thing, he may actually believe he’s racially motivated but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a surrogate for what he really wants. People do it all the time – transference – where they feel unable to get what it is they deeply desire so fabricate a more acceptable mode of getting it. For men, intellectualised anger and rage are far more acceptable than declaring feelings of insecurity and rejection and we often see this type of extreme racism linked with extreme anti-feminist views which points back to insecurity and rejection, not racism itself as his primary driver.
              • Pat …

                26 March 2019 at 6:28 pm

                If all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail
          • Psycho Milt 13.1.1.1.2

            24 March 2019 at 1:53 pm

            …he’s attempting to deceive the reader by having them believe he’s racially motivated in his actions…

            For my part, I find his murdering 50 Muslims and injuring dozens more to be a compelling argument for that belief, regardless of whatever he might have blathered on about in his manifesto.
            • Maggie 13.1.1.1.2.1

              26 March 2019 at 4:37 pm

              Without trying to sound like a dick that’s called a fundamental attribution error, a.k.a correspondence bias or attribution effect.
              That’s where we tend to believe that what other people do reflects who they are, that it’s indicative of their beliefs.
              In this way people view the shooter as inherently racist because of his actions and never see his actions as a vehicle of a different intent. This forms a presupposition in our minds and influences our rationale to the point that if we read the manifesto we would see only proof of that presupposition and any judgement would be slanted due to confirmation bias.
    • Psycho Milt 13.2

      24 March 2019 at 9:08 am

      DS: I haven’t read it, so this is a genuine question: when you read it, did it contain threats of violence against particular groups of people, or encouragement of violence against people? If it did, OFLC didn’t really have any choice other than to ban it.
      • DS 13.2.1

        24 March 2019 at 1:15 pm

        Yes, it does. The entire thing is about “driving the invaders from our lands before they out-breed us,” and specifically mentions his initial plan to go after the Dunedin Mosque.

        So, yeah. I can understand that the censor had no legal choice here. I just think it was a mistake at the political level.
        • Psycho Milt 13.2.1.1

          24 March 2019 at 1:32 pm

          I think the government’s caught in a bind here. As you’ve alluded to, the nation’s right-wingers in general and white supremacists in particular are now going to whinge about the government supposedly practicing heavy-handed censorship, so the political messaging is bad for the government. On the other hand, government ministers can’t instruct the OFLC not to ban a document that explicitly incites violence against a minority group, and especially not for reasons of political expediency. It sucks, but there isn’t much to be done about it.

          I’m going to settle for asking any right-wingers who whinge about it just why they think it’s so important that the message of violence against ethnic minorities should be kept available.
    • Molly 13.3

      24 March 2019 at 2:04 pm

      Agree with your take on the manifesto.

      In Deeyah Khan’s interview with the Guardian regarding her films: Jihad, and Meeting with Enemy – that undertook interviews with Jihadists and Neo-Nazis respectively, she quite succinctly makes the point:

      “Their cause is different, but their motivations and the personality types are the same. You have the guy who just wants violence and wants to find a cause he can dress his violence with. But the vast majority of the people are either lost and looking for a sense of belonging or looking for a sense of purpose. This is true for the jihadis and these guys here. They’re looking for something to contribute to and give to the world – in their opinion – in a positive way.”

      Khan has come away from her recent experience, she says, both more afraid and less. “What makes me more afraid is how organised, how galvanised [the white far right] are. They truly believe they are the victims. They feel like they have everything to lose and that’s worth fighting for.” But she also feels less frightened, personally, than she did. “I spent my life hounded by men like this and I left liberated from the fear because I realised they’re people who are just as messed up, in pain, broken or struggling as any of us. They just don’t have either the support or means to deal with some of the things they’re dealing with in a healthy way. I absolutely am not asking for people to feel sympathy for these guys – I don’t feel sympathy for them – but that does not exclude my ability to try to empathise with them. Having experienced racism my whole life, I decided that hating them or being afraid wasn’t enough for me any more.”
14. Stuart Munro. 14

    23 March 2019 at 11:33 pm

    I’m not sure that the shooter’s “manifesto” is particularly interesting, except perhaps to language corpora fans who want to trace all his source materials. But I do think that one of the consequences of the atrocity has been to expose a number of dubious media channels (the likes of 4Chan and its spawn) that have been indulging in the equivalent of what was once called ‘inciting a riot’, a behavior we’ve had laws about without conflict with free speech provisions, for a pretty long time. What’s more, secondary repeaters have been amplifying that riot signal, and these have been as ostensibly legitimate channels as Fox News, Kiwiblog, and a number of newspapers. These at least will be moved to mute their signals for a bit, which will be a good thing.

    As Redlogix notes, much of the radicalization seems to have occurred abroad. I trust this will be thoroughly mapped out as well as local influences and supporters. The choice of Muslims as targets doesn’t really relate to widespread antipathy here in NZ, as compared to countries with larger groups of Muslims where mass protest type actions have occurred like France, or where significant political groups have formed around the issue.

    Banning it is not so bad – it will still be available for study, but the gutter press won’t play it for clicks for as long as they might otherwise have done. Probably a good thing given the reading level of possible fellow travelers.
15. WeTheBleeple 15

    23 March 2019 at 11:37 pm

    “leftist overreaction”

    Oh I could provide one of those if you like. And I’d mock you for your pathetic arguments, but it’s already banned and so, with great schadenfreude I screw my thumb to my nose and say to you sir: fna fna fna

    You’d like to allow this morons drivel into the public discourse because Hitler had a good print run?

    I am enjoying the way people are all invoking Hitler’s manifesto being available as an example of why we should allow this.

    Gee. Where’s the connection between white supremist fucktards and that document? Errr, dddddeeeerrrrrrrrrr dunt cumpute dunt dunt.

    It is done. Get over it.

    An improvement would be if we went back in time and nobody ever heard of Charles piece of shit Manson. He was just recorded as Hollywood Fucktard 1.
    • RedLogix 15.1

      23 March 2019 at 11:54 pm

      From my understand the manifesto is several dozen pages of rambling BS few will be impressed by; by contrast Mein Kampf which traded on much the same themes, was taken very seriously by a whole nation, and led to a death toll in the order of 60 million.

      So no comparison really.
      • greywarshark 15.1.1

        24 March 2019 at 11:50 am

        RL
        If the manifesto is rambling BS that few will be impressed by, then all the more reason for most to have the opportunity of reading it so we can see what the few will be impressed by! We need an overview of society and understand those that are having difficulties with what we have and are willing and even eager to lay waste to it. Know thine enemy I think somebody said. It sounds wise.
    • Siobhan 15.2

      24 March 2019 at 2:07 pm

      I often wonder if you actually read peoples comments through…and whether you read with any comprehension.
      Or do you just absorb the first sentence and then go straight to moral outrage.
      I gave reasons why banning peoples boringly mad rantings can often backfire or achieve nothing… and you are refuting neither point..

      Does it not compute with you…once a document exists, even before the internet, banning it from legitimate sources doesn’t make it disappear…it makes it awesomely cool among dummies and conspiracy fiends, and the kind of thing 19 year old boys will go to great lengths to get hold of and ‘share’ via the inter-web…SIMPLY BECAUSE ITS BANNED.
      • WeTheBleeple 15.2.1

        24 March 2019 at 3:50 pm

        I don’t reply simply because I don’t care for your arguments or your tone.

        Have a nice day.
        • WeTheBleeple 15.2.1.1

          24 March 2019 at 7:56 pm

          Allright that was snarky. Sorry.

          I don’t default straight to moral outrage I’ve just been struggling to keep a grip this week to be honest.

          I’m concerned for public safety and children and vulnerable minds safety. I am not able to do anything about the damage already done by a deliberate poisoners poison, but I will fight to have its content censored. It is trauma inducing for peoples who’ve been exposed to these ideas and their carriers before, and adds insult to recent severe injury.

          If intellectuals want to view the materials and pontificate then have at it. Keep that pontification on a need to know basis. We can learn without disseminating nonsense. We can disseminate what the experts learn.

          It is not general reading, it is a poison.

          You have your views, I have mine.
          • Siobhan 15.2.1.1.1

            25 March 2019 at 3:15 am

            I do appreciate and apologize and forgive the snarky tone…from both of us..I’m simply referring to horrible reality.

            You and I may think..okay..this is a banned thing…I better not track it down, i better-not read it…but thats not what THEY are thinking.

            and acknowledging that reality isn’t a ;intellectual’ thing.

            we are probably more in agreement than you may think.
16. Formerly Ross 16

    24 March 2019 at 8:52 am

    “Better to arrest ten innocent people by mistake than free a single guilty party.”
    “If someone is very hungry, the Angkar will take him where he will be stuffed with food.”
    “If you wish to live exactly as you please, the Angkar will put aside a small piece of land for you.”
    “Hunger is the most effective disease.”

    Thankfully, we are able to read and understand the ideology of the Khmer Rouge which killed and tortured thousands. We can learn from history. It is a grave mistake to ban that which we don’t understand and that which we find uncomfortable.

    Rob Hamill’s testimony at the trial of Comrade Duch, who murdered and tortured Kerry Hamill, was incredibly powerful. Thankfully, we have a record of his testimony and a record of the inhumanity of the regime.

    “In his confession, Kerry stated that Colonel Sanders (of Kentucky Fried Chicken fame, a popular chain of fast food restaurants) was one of his superiors.

    He used our home telephone number as his CIA operative number and mentioned several family friends as supposed members of the CIA.”

    http://www.mekong.net/cambodia/redbook.htm
    http://bno-documentary.blogspot.com/2009/08/robs-victim-testimony-to-extraordinary.html
    
17. greywarshark 17

    24 March 2019 at 11:43 am

    This in Radionz Sunday morning about knowing about white supremacists might make some good points.

    USA professor has been studying white supremacist movements.
    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018687962/professor-kathleen-belew-christchurch-terrorist-driven-by-classic-white-power-ideologies

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018687797/lessons-from-norway-on-covering-the-quest-for-justice
    There’s concern the court case of the man accused of murder in Christchurch could give him unwelcome extra exposure. Espen Egil Hansen – editor of Norway’s paper Aftenposten – has some advice for media here after reporting a similar trial there, and also making Facebook accountable for its actions.

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