The incredibly incurious and forgetful Mr Key

Written By: - Date published: 9:21 pm, October 11th, 2012 - 144 comments
Categories: john key, Spying - Tags: , ,

“So what?” says Key as allegations emerge from within GCSB that Key cracked jokes about the spooks’ (illegal) involvement in the Dotcom raid when he was briefed by them on February 29th. Well, you’ve previously said that the reference to Dotcom must have escaped your attention at the time (‘it was a small image on a laptop screen’). That seems to be a lie. And we know you knew Dotcom was a resident a month earlier. So, you knew Dotcom was a resident and you knew on February 29th at the latest that the GCSB had spied on him, which you should have realised was illegal or at least asked about. And the fact you didn’t either means you’re incompetent or that you knew all about the illegal spying and didn’t care – that’s what.

Key’s reaction to this is to feign indifference, ignorance, and forgetfulness. It’s a pretty hollow effort, really. But let’s pretend it’s true for a moment.

Let’s pretend that Key can’t remember being briefed on Dotcom and can’t remember later joking about it with the spooks. That doesn’t change the fact that he knew at the time and should have asked questions at the time.

It also doesn’t satisfy questions around the competence of the political management of Key and his staff.

Having failed to ask questions at the time and, we’re meant to believe, having forgotten all about it, once the Dotcom issue started to break in August – Key and his staff ought to have acted. That point was when the GCSB came to the PM’s office asking for the PM to sign a Ministerial Certificate suppressing the GCSB’s involvement in the Dotcom raid after the Police officer in charge apparently lied to the Court and said they weren’t involved.

When that landed in the PM’s office several things should have happened.

  • Key ought to have been informed.
  • He and his staff should have constructed a detailed timeline of the GCSB’s involvement in the affair and every contact Key had had with the issue – as much so that they wouldn’t be surprised by revelations as that its just good practice for a minister.
  • Someone ought to have realised that the GCSB’s actions were illegal (btw, has Key ever told us why they supposedly realised on September 14th that the spying was illegal – I mean, why then, if not earlier? Unless that’s when they’re pretending that they worked it out because it was all about to become public).
  • Key should have been familiar with all those details within days and, good political management says, before he went public.

That should, in the scenario that Key is trying to get us to believe, all have happened on the 16th of August or very shortly thereafter. It is implausible that Key and his office is so amateur at both politics and governance that they didn’t get all their ducks in a row as soon as they learned there was an issue.

And, yet, we’re meant to believe that Key wasn’t told until September 14th after someone (who?) finally worked out that the GCSB shouldn’t have spied on Dotcom and that, then, Key and his office took basically no action for weeks to establish who knew what when with the result that facts that they don’t know or recall keep on dripping out in the media.

I don’t buy it.

It stinks of the same willful, fake blindness, indifference, and forgetfulness that Banks put on when his anonymous donations were revealed or that Key displayed when the Police report into the Banks affair came out.

Nobody believes that Banks didn’t know full well that Dotcom and Skycity (and others) had donated to him when he lied to the media and nobody believes that Key can’t understand that Banks broke the law and lied about it as a minister.

Likewise, nobody can believe that Key and his staff have simply ignored the GCSB spying issue and hoped it would go away. The very likely truth is that Key knew about it from the start. The very start, when Power denied Dotcom’s application to buy the mansion at the same time as Key was jetting off for his hotly desired meeting with Obama and the US officials in charge of stopping internet piracy.

Why do I think that Key’s knowledge and involvement go back so far? Because he is clearly lying and what is the point in lying unless he has something decent to hide.

If it was a matter of failed oversight – ie. if Key was informed of the GCSB’s involvement on February 29th and failed to ask the right questions even though he is required by law to “control” the GCSB, that would be bad but it would be a boil best quickly lanced.

This feigned indifference, ignorance, and forgetfulness, the half-hearted throwing of a couple of junior GCSB staff to the wolves when anyone could see a proper investigation is needed, suggests he has more to hide than just being a minister who didn’t give two shits about his job. It suggests that he was, as Key himself likes to say, ‘donkey deep’ in the GCSB spying from the start.

If he survives this, and I’m beginning to be less and less sure that he will, the lesson for Key will be ‘don’t cross the spooks – they’re experts at using information against people’.

144 comments on “The incredibly incurious and forgetful Mr Key ”

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  1. McFlock 1
    11 October 2012 at 9:48 pm

    nice summary.
         
    If he is barefaced lying right now, that’s just icing on the shit-cake.
    He was negligent or incompetent at the time our security service was breaking the law.

  2. Jim Nald 2
    11 October 2012 at 9:55 pm

    The clearest explanation is often the simplest and most obvious to one’s eyes and to one’s ears.

    There has been a lot coming out recently. Now, it is more of a matter whether people choose to not want to face up to truth but to hang on to his next implausible denial or excuse.

  3. ianmac 3
    11 October 2012 at 10:26 pm

    Key said, “He challenged Labour to back up their claim.”
    “Well, they’ll have to find some proof of that,” he says.

    Isn’t that what people, (little kids) say when they have something to hide?

    If innocent he should have said, “I could not have said anything about Dotcom because at that time I did not know that he was anything to do with GCSB. So there can be no tape and no remarks to the staff.”
    And not,”Prove it.”

    • felix 3.1
      11 October 2012 at 10:34 pm

      Yes Ian, it’s the same pattern every time with Key: ‘This is the truth until someone can prove otherwise, at which time something else will be the truth until someone can prove otherwise.’ Rinse and repeat.

      Now he’s even saying it out loud.

      • mike 3.1.1
        12 October 2012 at 12:39 am

        ‘This is the truth until someone can prove otherwise, at which time something else will be the truth until someone can prove otherwise.’ Rinse and repeat.

        Oh you mean like psychopaths do?

    • McFlock 3.2
      11 October 2012 at 10:45 pm

      Miscreants I have dealt with also usually realise when the jig is up and that coming clean and getting it over with as quickly as possible is the best course of action for them.
             
      It’s only the real jerks who pile lie upon lie  long past the point of ridiculousness. And it bites them in the arse.

      • felix 3.2.1
        11 October 2012 at 10:50 pm

        nom nom nom

      • mike 3.2.2
        12 October 2012 at 12:53 am

        Most people who are spinning a lie that is unraveling realize quickly when it’s time to cut their losses and fess up.

        But some people are totally confident in their ability to talk their way out of anything. And that confidence can take them along way. They are risk-takers, and they enjoy fooling people. They are psychopaths, and lying is just how they roll. Dr Robert Hare has observed psychopaths lying to him even when they know that he knows they are lying – showing that they really do have a quite different concept of lying.

        Thus some people are happy to lie their way onto very thin ice. I’ve been predicting this fate for Key for some time. He may or may not fall through, but credibility is one of those things that doesn’t grow back when you chop it off.

    • Te Reo Putake 3.3
      11 October 2012 at 10:54 pm

      “Isn’t that what people, (little kids) say when they have something to hide?”
       
      The world’s oldest 8 year old concurs, Ianmac.

    • Peter 3.4
      12 October 2012 at 1:46 pm

      Yes, he is starting to sound like Lance Armstrong

      • aerobubble 3.4.1
        12 October 2012 at 3:07 pm

        Given how happy Key looks when reattaching to the US alliance is of such importance,
        exactly, how could Lance not have taken drugs and won so many times, duh moment!
        Of course Key knew everything that matters about how to win favors in Washington.

  4. xtasy 4
    11 October 2012 at 11:03 pm

    Yes, one honest, informed and grounded person would say: “John is gohn!”

    But that is not the reality in NZ.

    Brainwashing and ignorance are sadly the rule. The truth is not coming through in many areas. The populace has been dumbed down and turned off politics in a massive way. So even when Campbell and TV3 may expose Key as the undeniable liar, the propaganda machine keeps moving, distraction rules, Key just shrugs it off with the Banks style “don’t know, don’t remember, nothing to do with me”, or better “nothing to say, nothing to hide” kinda stuff, and the bulk of media, the disinterested public and more let him get away with it.

    I would dare to say, if a dead body would be found on the grounds of Key’s mansion in Parnell tomorrow, he would shrug it off, and most would believe some conspiracy to get him harmed and out of power.

    The man is unbelievable, literally and not literally, he gets away with almost anything, is teflon from head to toes, and it is only due to a useless media (failed for years, some only pick up now) and a people not even interested in truth, values, integrity, transparency and accountability anymore.

    Maybe the harsh economic times, the marginalisation of many on welfare, has turned so many into “petty crooks” and “cheats” for mere survival’s sake, they rather put up with a real crook running the show, as they fear the tune may change and hold them accountable too.

    A LOST country in some ways, I fear, and I say it again. But tonight, for the very first time, I was actually seeing a positive in Shearer, he was actually coming across as the simple, straight and honest guy. So Key has to worry now, as he has shot himself in the foot too many times recently!

  5. marty mars 5
    11 October 2012 at 11:08 pm

    How long can key keep up the “I have no recollection” lines – they are wearing very thin and even his supporters must be cringing everytime he says it – shit, I’m loving it. And best to come the big secret that he is trying to hide – can’t wait for that one.

    • felix 5.1
      11 October 2012 at 11:15 pm

      The longer the better.

    • mike 5.2
      12 October 2012 at 1:00 am

      I’m also lovin’ it, but I truly find myself having to look away from Key’s face during that latest Gower interview.

      And when the usual smiling mask slides back on at the end when he says goodbye… Cringe.

      • Jim Nald 5.2.1
        12 October 2012 at 1:32 pm

        If Transparency International is looking at John Key’s creative, shifting stories, New Zealand can blame Key if our ratings drop.
        And we can thank GCSB for not letting our ratings plummet further in respect of this incident.

        Opposition parties or private members should propose a bill which specifically protects leaks and disclosures by our spy agencies when they provide more transparency by revealing that the PM and cabinet ministers are telling lies and deceiving the people. 🙂 Our spy agencies function for our collective, public good and owe us, the citizens and taxpayers, that at the very least.

  6. Logie97 6
    11 October 2012 at 11:26 pm

    Watching the performance in the interview on TV3 tonight, he exhibited the same behaviours back in 2008 when asked by Fran Mold over the Tranzrail shares and then by Garner about the visit of Lord Ashcroft.

    Tranzrail http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeJSFVWKnsE

    Ashcroft http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GwcCNdTYyQ

    And tonight when pushed about talking to staff in the cafeteria. First denial and then the squirm and admission.

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Secret-GCSB-recording-catches-Key-out—Labour/tabid/370/articleID/272405/Default.aspx

    What was the campaign about back then – Trust?

    Just what did he mean during Question Time recently, when he derided the opposition, saying along the lines, “They think they have a story, but they can’t seem to join the dots…” ?

    • xtasy 6.1
      11 October 2012 at 11:31 pm

      He had and probably still has “trust(s)” too. But is that giving him any credibility. I could open a trust tomorrow, same as those foreign “investors” from the Middle East, Russia and some Asian countries do her, just to avoid taxes.

      That is what “trust” means in modern language! F ALL!

  7. Blue 7
    12 October 2012 at 12:02 am

    There are few joys so pure as watching a hypocrite get their just deserts.

    In 2008 John Key and National, with help from their cronies in Act, waged war on Winston Peters to try to bring Helen Clark’s government down and get themselves back into power at any cost.

    Watching Key fall into the same pattern as Winston, denying, getting shown up, denying, getting shown up, until it snowballs into a monster destroying his credibility totally, is marvellous to watch.

    By the end of the year Winston will be able to say that he’d never form a Government with someone as shifty as John Key.

    It’s the denials that come back to bite you in the arse, Johnny. Keep it up.

  8. robdog 8
    12 October 2012 at 12:27 am

    Shonkyjohnky

  9. xtasy 9
    12 October 2012 at 1:54 am

    Macro and Micro, Ahhh, where did that cover my and my degree again? Ahh, dunno. Not there here or anywhere. MY expertise is in FOREX trading, stitching up deals with merchant brothers and my mates. So where do you come from. I am expert, professional and more. I even deal with debt brokers on a daily basis, but that is a side issue. Economy? Well that is wishing well to me, put your coins into the Roman basis, I will have a look at it. All is well. Leave me alone, bugger! JK

  10. xtasy 10
    12 October 2012 at 2:45 am

    There is an incredibly simple solution to get NZ out of the shit, and I feel, that at least some in Labour, certainly Russel Norman and of course Winston, do all know it. It is a solution to put together a high level think tank, not to run amok and do just what they please to do to get shares and divide the cake, but to sit down with damned government, to sign a bloody agreement, to advance the country and engage in some serious talk with also serious companies and countries to invest here.

    Now, I happen to come from the centre of faraway Europe. My knowlegde, experience and trust has always been, that there is a very strong interest in much of Europe, whether business, prospective migrants, of entrepreneurs and whatever, in bloody damned Australia AND New Zealand.

    Now where did this ever go wrong, that NZ never tapped into it?

    I am also very keen for development with Mainland China and other nations in Asia, but on a fair and equatable basis. Sometimes we have issues witht that.

    NZ is still largely European, but admittedly open to other cultures. Forget this propaganda of being part of “Asia” NZ is unique and so is Australia, same as South America. Would anyone say Latin America is part Asia, just because they do more trade with them?

    We are run by idiots and managed by idiots here. That is why they and this government gets away with such nonsense. I am not Winston Peters, nor am I David Shearer. I do think though, that NZ needs a good, hard look at who we are, where we are, and what we bloody want. Do we want to continue exporting raw logs, fish, milk powder, blocks of cheese, casks of wine kand so, or does NZ want to develop?

    I know that in Europe some still highly industrialised nations are ahead in environmental protection and also lead with alternative energy generation. It is not always perfect and needs improvement what they do, but they seem to get on with it, and it works for them.

    So why can NZ not at least do some progress, to at least in part, move toward some similar progress in the same direction? I ask this, because this will decide for me personally, whether I will bother to stay in this country for the rest of my life. There are so many other countries I know and with people from there I have contact with. They are all great, enthusiastic and feel and think the same as me. It goes across continents. Now I wonder, are NZers up to the task and game to take the next step. That really concerns me, and I would like to know. Apart from that I want a fair, and social society, where we have no starving kids at school and beneficiaries feeling persecuted. I wonder, is there a future for me, like minded and others in NZ?

  11. AsleepWhileWalking 11
    12 October 2012 at 7:28 am

    If this happened to pretty much any other New Zealander we would never have known. Key needs to be held directly accountable for allowing people working under him to break the law in a manner that is extreme and unprecedented in this country.

  12. lanthanide 12
    12 October 2012 at 7:41 am

    It’s almost like dotcom has some sort of memory distortion field, kind of like Steve Jobs’ reality distortion field.

    • deuto 12.1
      12 October 2012 at 3:16 pm

      Funnily enough, about 6 hours ago Kim Dotcom put the following up on his Twitter site

      “The World Health Organisation contacted me. They asked if they can use my picture to help people forget traumatic events.”

      LOL

  13. karol 13
    12 October 2012 at 7:59 am

    And there’s a certain amount of table-turning.  On 3 News last  night, the headline story should have been Bennett’s latest distraction and punitive dealing to beneficiary parents.  Instead, it was all Labour taking the initiative and claims about a possible video recording.

  14. karol 14
    12 October 2012 at 8:20 am

    So now it seems the source in GCSB is Fran Mold’s spy partner:

     
    The Labour Party’s GCSB leak has been revealed.
    The partner of David Shearer’s chief spin doctor, former TVNZ political journalist Fran Mold, is a spy.
    That’s where the party’s information has come from that when John Key was briefed at the GCSB in February, he spoke to the spies in a cafeteria.

     
     

    • D.J. 14.1
      12 October 2012 at 9:04 am

      Any proof?

    • ianmac 14.2
      12 October 2012 at 9:20 am

      Spying on the spies? Now there is a plot for a movie. Is it truly the source of the information?

    • HG 14.3
      12 October 2012 at 10:13 am

      Oh dear, another Labour Party own goal!!

    • Kotahi Tāne Huna 14.4
      12 October 2012 at 10:19 am

      From the Barry Soper piece – linked by Karol.

      The Prime Minister last night freely admitted he spoke with the staff at the GCSB at that cafeteria but claims he cannot remember whether Mr Dotcom’s name was mentioned.

      But he does admit he could have made a quip in passing about the internet giant because he says he’s known for making light hearted remarks.

      Mr Key says the fact that so much publicity had been given to Dotcom and the raid on his mansion the month before meant that his mention probably didn’t register in the same way with him at the briefing.

      …known for making light-hearted remarks? On a cabbage boat perhaps?

      I didn’t do it. No-one saw me do it. You can’t prove anything.

      • tracey 14.4.1
        12 October 2012 at 12:31 pm

        Is soper sleeping with the pm?

      • Treetop 14.4.2
        12 October 2012 at 12:40 pm

        The gall of Key to try and cover up by saying he could have made a quib about Dotcom. And this is AFTER Key publicly apologised to Dotcom for being spied against.

        Do I think that Key’s apology was genuine to Dotcom for being spied on? No

        Do I think that a PM who is up to the neck in covering his tracks that it is appropriate to say he made a quib a wise thing to do? No

        All Key does is insult Dotcom and the public of NZ with his POOR judgement.

      • fabregas4 14.4.3
        12 October 2012 at 6:00 pm

        David Brent.

  15. starlight 15
    12 October 2012 at 8:45 am

    “I can’t remember ” ‘I wasn’t there” etc, memory loss and confusion is a serious matter
    even more so when that person is in charge of a country,our country, urgent medical
    attention needed, “Is there a doctor in the house”? this pm needs to be ‘checked out’
    in more ways than one.

  16. vto 16
    12 October 2012 at 9:44 am

    hang on hang on hang on …..

    Just watched the TV3 item again, and Key says, in relation to the cafeteria visit, that he had no staff with him. No staff allowed I guess as part of spooky stuff and the PM.

    So he has no staff with him when it comes to this stuff. Yet he answers that he can’t recall stuff? That his staff deal with much of his stuff? That much of this stuff is routine and operational?

    Key alone gets the briefings. Key alone was in the cafeteria. No staff. No assistance.

    …… Key just keeps tripping. In more than one sense.

    … the whole country is watching ….. do do do do

    • yeshe 16.1
      12 October 2012 at 10:40 am

      No staff ? Then what can this mean from the ZB link above …

      ‘Media reports last night said there may have been a video recording of Key’s address to the staff but he says that wasn’t the case and that’s been reinforced by the former secretary of the Cabinet Rebecca Kitteridge who was sent in by the Prime Minister to check the venue.

      She says still photos were taken but she’s not releasing them because they identify staff.’

      • vto 16.1.1
        12 October 2012 at 10:51 am

        “‘Media reports last night said there may have been a video recording of Key’s address to the staff but he says that wasn’t the case and that’s been reinforced by the former secretary of the Cabinet Rebecca Kitteridge who was sent in by the Prime Minister to check the venue.”

        She refers to GCSB staff not PM staff.

        There is also nothing in that statement that indicates she was there when Key was – just that she went in to check the venue.

    • mike 16.2
      12 October 2012 at 11:15 am

      Key’s explained this one:

      Mr Key says the fact that so much publicity had been given to Dotcom and the raid on his mansion the month before meant that his mention probably didn’t register in the same way with him at the briefing.

      See it’s because Dotcom was so high profile that Key’s brain switched off while he was being briefed about him.

      Keyism of the week anyone?

      • Kotahi Tāne Huna 16.2.1
        12 October 2012 at 11:17 am

        Ah, like the way a ticking clock becomes silent after a while. What a plausible explanation.

      • PlanetOrphan 16.2.2
        12 October 2012 at 11:21 am

        “Too much information”, needed a nap M8!

      • vto 16.2.3
        12 October 2012 at 11:30 am

        compulsive liar trait that one – saying something clearly absurd to try and throw the scent.

        and compulsive liar traits are recognised by pretty much every simgle living person ……. except the compulsive liar.

  17. Red Rosa 17
    12 October 2012 at 10:08 am

    “Likewise, nobody can believe that Key and his staff have simply ignored the GCSB spying issue and hoped it would go away. The very likely truth is that Key knew about it from the start. The very start, when Power denied Dotcom’s application to buy the mansion at the same time as Key was jetting off for his hotly desired meeting with Obama and the US officials in charge of stopping internet piracy.

    Why do I think that Key’s knowledge and involvement go back so far? Because he is clearly lying and what is the point in lying unless he has something decent to hide.”

    Well said Eddie, would explain all this calculated evasion. But for the PM of NZ to connive with the US in illegal surveillance of an NZ resident, using the GCSB? Scary. And where are the police now, in all of this?

    There were rumours at the time of Simon Power’s resignation that he was not happy with the Nat direction, maybe this or a related issue was lurking around even then.

    • yeshe 17.1
      12 October 2012 at 10:46 am

      Red Rosa .. agree, I had exactly the same thought a couple of days ago about Simon Power and his very sudden resignation. It was so completely unexpected for a rising star, so out of the blue ( sorry for pun) .. maybe now the truth ekes itself out of the slime ??

      Any public betting yet on Key’s departure date ??

      • starlight 17.1.1
        12 October 2012 at 11:22 am

        Key hasn’t set up his ‘financial hub’ yet,but he is getting there, the sell off of nz
        public assets,land,christchurch, govt ownership of that council,land and property,
        housing interests and land for his mates to reap future rewards,oil,gas,mining,
        etc, i have also said on this site that power,is the power,he will know much
        more than anyone what has gone on and how far back,also what occured
        over the change of mind in dotcom’s property ownership and who ticked it
        off and why,when did the tick off happen,after key had gone to the us,or just
        before.

      • Lanthanide 17.1.2
        12 October 2012 at 11:37 am

        “Any public betting yet on Key’s departure date ??”

        See iPredict.

  18. captain hook 18
    12 October 2012 at 10:35 am

    he just waiting for the next “DEAL”.

  19. Anne 19
    12 October 2012 at 10:49 am

    There were rumours at the time of Simon Power’s resignation that he was not happy with the Nat direction, maybe this or a related issue was lurking around even then.

    My reading of Simon Power was that he was a man of integrity. I can’t recall when he announced his decision to leave politics but it looks like the Dotcom case began much earlier than has been publicly admitted, and it would not surprise me if it had a bearing on his decision.

    • Richard Christie 19.1
      12 October 2012 at 4:55 pm

      .
      My reading of Simon Power was that he was a man of integrity.

      He didn’t have the bottle to fix the Peter Ellis case.

      That makes him little more than a straw man in my eyes.

      His proposed changes to disclosure law were also outrageous.

  20. mike 20
    12 October 2012 at 11:09 am

    Labour’s GCSB source compromised/exposed in less than 24 hours? Who’s playing who here? Geez Key warned us about Tom Clancy plot but, bedside whispers from spies to politicians…

  21. Doug 21
    12 October 2012 at 11:43 am

    GCSB Act 2003:
    11 Prohibition on unauthorised disclosure of information

    (1)A person who is or was an employee of the Bureau may not disclose or use any information gained by or conveyed to the person through the person’s connection with the Bureau except in the strict course of the person’s official duties or as authorised by the Minister.(2)Every person commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or to a fine not exceeding $2,000 who contravenes subsection (1).

    Shearer released his information without the cloak of Parliamentary privilege.

    [lprent: What does it have to do with Shearer? He hasn’t ever been an employee of the GCSB. If you are going to make a point then explicitly make one. In this case you appear to have simply stated two completely unrelated facts.

    Don’t try to implicitly spin it or I will spin you off the site for trolling stupidly. Have a one week ban for wasting my time pointing out the obvious. ]

    • ianmac 21.1
      12 October 2012 at 11:55 am

      Do you think that a PM chatting to workers in their cafeteria comes under the Official Secrets Act?
      Would media savvy Key put those having a cup of tea (teacup again?) at risk or would he hope that they would go home and chat about what that nice man John Key said and let’s vote for his party?

    • Anne 21.2
      12 October 2012 at 12:29 pm

      He’s cut and pasted it from Whale oil… Slater’s latest pernicious slant on the story.

      • mickysavage 21.2.1
        12 October 2012 at 12:45 pm

        Interesting they should be attacking the source rather than rubbishing the claim.

        Major mistake on their part.  It pretty well confirms that the PM is telling fibs. 

      • lprent 21.2.2
        12 October 2012 at 12:57 pm

        Figures. It is a favourite tactic of the whale bombers pushing a meme. I bet that whale did his usual 1+1=111 logic to get from one to the other as well. He is fond of being and sounding like a legal moron.

  22. Seti 22
    12 October 2012 at 12:07 pm

    Do you think that a PM chatting to workers in their cafeteria comes under the Official Secrets Act?

    No such thing, it was repealed with the advent of the OIA.

    As per Doug’s 11:43 any information discussed at the GCSB cannot be released. Shearer and Mold might not be directly responsible but they are a party to it.

    [lprent: two week ban for trolling for the same reason as doug. And you should damn well know better bearing in mind the number of times I’ve banned you for the same reinforcement of crap tactic. Too stupid to learn? ]

    • Seti 22.1
      12 October 2012 at 12:35 pm

      Firstly, I’ve never been banned from this or any other site. Please point out any previous occurrence. I think you’re confusing me with another poster.

      Secondly, trolling??? You’re happy for Shearer to release information that was potentially illegally leaked by a GCSB employee?

      [lprent: Firstly, you could be right. http://thestandard.org.nz/?s=lprent+%40author+seti+&isopen=block&search_comments=true&search_sortby=date . My apologies, I obviously do have you confused with someone else. One week for repeated dropped.

      Secondly, the ban wasn’t for a moral judgement it was for a legal presumption. Neither you nor doug have shown any reason why Shearer (or Mold) have anything to answer for under the law but have presumed that there was such a provision under the law and assumed it as fact. That is a troll tactic that is used to build a presumption of guilt.

      When I see it being used the I assume that the person doing it is guilty of trolling and give an immediate warning or punishment. This discourages repetition of the tactic. Besides you really have no cause to complain – it was exactly what you were doing.

      The trick is to get past this constraint is to speculate what law they could be charged under or if there was a moral issue. See you in a week to argue about it… ]

  23. red blooded 23
    12 October 2012 at 12:15 pm

    Well, something smells fishy and Key certainly seems a bit green around the gills. Having said that, I found this discussion about the timing of Dotcom’s application for residency and the details about a change in law between the 1987 and 2009 Immigration Acts really interesting: http://publicaddress.net/legalbeagle/kim-dotcom-all-the-fault-of-the-immigration/

    Basically, it looks to me like the police/GCSB got caught out because they didn’t stay in touch with the changes in the residency laws. Presumably, Key’s office should have keyed them in on a matter like this, in their supervisory role. Basically, it looks like no-one met the standards of professionalism we are entitled to expect from our public employees (and I include Key in this category) and since then Key has been ducking and diving and trying to disengage himself from what was a failure of his oversight, as well as of the police and GCSB.

    Of course, Key wanted to cooperate with and impress the US authorities. Well, he may have thought he was doing just that, but as the bungling is revealed bit by bit it becomes clear that the loose management of this issue is likely to obstruct the legal process and may well thwart the goals of the US and that the original mistakes, compounded by the PM’s 3-monkeys approach (“See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil”) is not impressing anyone (or at least, anyone who values trustworthiness or humility).

  24. pete 24
    12 October 2012 at 12:26 pm

    Will Mr Shearer and Ms Mold be the subject of an investigation?

    • mickysavage 24.1
      12 October 2012 at 12:47 pm

      Why?

      They are not former employees of the GCSB.

      Righties you must all try harder.  Essentially you are agreeing that what Key is accused of saying is true and that he has been telling porkies to the NZ public.

      And his refusal to call for an independent inquiry is bizarre to put it mildly … 

      • Inventory2 24.1.1
        12 October 2012 at 2:02 pm

        So micky; are you saying that you’re sweet with agents employed by the Government Communications Security Bureau passing on information from their workplace to a political party? It’s Labour is this case, but the boot could just as easily be on the other foot.

        • gobsmacked 24.1.1.1
          12 October 2012 at 2:29 pm

          But there is nothing wrong at the GCSB. Key has told us all there was just one “brain fade” by one low-level employee, nothing to see here, move on.

          Now, if you want to argue that there *are* real issues at the GCSB, and they should be investigated, that’s cool. But that’s not Key’s line, is it?

          Who knows what they’re up to? Not the Prime Minister, apparently.

          It’s a big deal or no big deal, take your pick. But you Tories can’t have both.

        • mickysavage 24.1.1.2
          12 October 2012 at 2:58 pm

          So micky; are you saying that you’re sweet with agents employed by the Government Communications Security Bureau passing on information from their workplace to a political party? 

          Anything but.  I agree with you that there is something deeply disturbing happening at the GCSB.  IMHO there should be a full inquiry to investigate the following:

          1.  What Key was told about GCSB investigation of Dotcom and when these briefings occurred.
          2.  How they managed to screw up getting legal confirmation they had the power to investigate Dotcom.
          3.  Were they involved in tapping Dotcom’s line in November 2011.
          4.  Were they involved in the handling of illegally obtained evidence to the US authorities. 
          5.  Where the leaks are coming from. 

  25. tsmithfield 25
    12 October 2012 at 12:52 pm

    Here is a slightly different take on the below clause:

    GCSB Act 2003:
    11 Prohibition on unauthorised disclosure of information

    (1)A person who is or was an employee of the Bureau may not disclose or use any information gained by or conveyed to the person through the person’s connection with the Bureau except in the strict course of the person’s official duties or as authorised by the Minister.(2)Every person commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or to a fine not exceeding $2,000 who contravenes subsection (1).

    It seems to me that this clause is quite broad in its effect so far as the source of information or how it was obtained.

    However, it does seem to only be related to the release of factual information. However, reading the clause above, an employee would seem to have an automatic defence if the released information they knew not to be true. For instance : “The GCSB has discovered evidence of life on Mars” (assuming they haven’t), or something else that was untrue. Food for thought.

    Anyway, does anyone know how the source of the leak was outed? The article linked to above doesn’t say.

    • Pascal's bookie 25.1
      12 October 2012 at 1:19 pm

      Umm. what?

      It seems really narrow on who is liable, (employees, former employees) and broad on what can’t be released, (any information).

      baisc idea is that they need to keep their secrets, but they can’t bind people who haven’t signed up to keep those secrets.

      Similar to how the US does it. It’s to give whistleblowers a decision to make; they will be liable to legal action, but if what they leak is stuff that should be known by the public, (eg, illegal activity on the part of the agency, crown), then they will probably get a pardon.

      • tsmithfield 25.1.1
        12 October 2012 at 2:53 pm

        But if the information was completely fabricated then by definition it hasn’t been obtained during the course of work. So, if information is fabricated, I don’t think the confidentiallity clause would have any effect.

        Don’t know about the whistle-blower argument here, especially so far as spying is concerned. There is probably plenty of more important stuff they uncover that the public arguably should know about. So I expect the confidentiality agreement would be fairly all encompassing.

        • Pascal's bookie 25.1.1.1
          12 October 2012 at 3:42 pm

          I’m not following. Are you suggesting that the leak was a plot to discredit Shearer and deflect the narrative away from Key’s lies and the GCSB’s illegal behaviour?

          I guess there is some circumstantial evidence for that, but it seems a bit far fetched mate to be honest. Very disturbing if true though, I’ll grant you.

          You make a habit of inventing premises, (in this case, ‘the leak was of completely fabricated information’) and then wondering what it would show if your premise was true.

          it’s a like occam’s razzor, but for stupid people.

      • D.J. 25.2.1
        12 October 2012 at 2:53 pm

        But didn’t supply any evidence. Why the certainty? Off the record briefing from Eagleson? Outing former spies for political gain?

  26. ad 26
    12 October 2012 at 1:08 pm

    Thoroughly looking forward to Key being slowly destroyed by this over then next few months.

    Perhaps a bit of the public service that needs a restructure (since most everyone else in Wellington is) is GCSB, SIS, and the security bits of the DPMC.

    We need a solid and sustained dose of sunlight on our entire security and intelligence apparatus, such as it is.

  27. Red Rosa 27
    12 October 2012 at 1:14 pm

    The GCSB acted illegally in the Dotcom surveillance. That’s admitted, and a matter of public record, the PM has even apologized for it. Nothing to do with ‘national security’ the usual GCSB job.

    So are the ‘leakers’ in fact whistleblowers?

    In Watergate, once the Feds got onto it, a possible charge of ‘concealing a felony’ scared the hell out of all those even remotely involved.

    Does something similar apply here? Are there GCSB underlings keen to keep their own records clear, by exposing those further up the chain? And as with Watergate, from how far up the chain did those instructions originate? And again, as with Watergate, has there been destruction of evidence?

    It seems increasingly likely that ‘convenient confusion’ was the cover story set in place at the start, way back in 2011, for a deliberate evasion of the law. This is truly alarming stuff.

    Uncanny echoes of Richard Nixon. He’d just won an election too, though in 1972 and by a landslide.

    • marsman 27.1
      12 October 2012 at 1:32 pm

      ‘It seems increasingly likely that ‘convenient confusion’ was the cover story set in place at the start, way back in 2011, for a deliberate evasion of the law. This is truly alarming stuff. ‘
      Completely agree with you. We have seen how easily and quickly John Key wags his tail and does his tricks of producing money when USA Corporate ‘Bigwigs’ snap their fingers. Am sure that Key arrogantly thought that breaking NZ’s laws wasn’t important and that no-one would know anyway. John Key has no regard for NZ or it’s population except as plunder.

  28. Robert M 28
    12 October 2012 at 1:16 pm

    I’m sure similar legislation was in force before 2003 and I always thought it rather amazing that Nicky Hager was able to engage freely with many current and recent GCSB staff in preparing his book , ‘Secret Power ‘ on Echelon. During the 1980’s when I was engaged in defence commentary I certainly had extensive discussions with a number of then current and recently servicing high ranking RNZN officers and some RAN officers, which were informative and well beyond the public record- despite statements they wern’t.
    However Hager by his own acknowledgement admits that he knows very little about the work of GCSB ( interview Hager/Manning -Radio Live-last couple of weeks) and that is not surrpising given that most GCSB and DSD workers will be sworn military officers of Air.Sea and Land.
    Crime fighting is an insignificant role of the GCSB and even the civilian analysis of phone calls re politics, leftism, etc is a minor thing ususally done by Canadians re NZ in Canada-interesting re latest spy case in Ottawa. Most of the CSGB work is an attempt to decode the military satellite communications and sub transmissions of the Chinese, Japanese, Russians and Indians.

  29. mike 29
    12 October 2012 at 1:26 pm

    Anyway, does anyone know how the source of the leak was outed?

    I’m also curious about that.

    • mike 29.1
      12 October 2012 at 1:27 pm

      Dang blockquotes is not working for me. Nor the edit function.

      [lprent: In the wysiwyg editor? What operating system and which browser? ]

      • mike 29.1.1
        12 October 2012 at 3:52 pm

        I’ve never ticked the ‘use wysiwyg’ box if that’s what you mean. XP and Google Chrome. When I say the edit function doesn’t work I mean I don’t get the option. Where it usually says “edit/delete” with the countdown it just goes straight to ‘reply’.

        • lprent 29.1.1.1
          12 October 2012 at 4:17 pm

          Ok – I will check it out. That subsystem is a wee bit fragile because it depends heavily on the javascript working well..

          http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-12102012/comment-page-1/#comment-533612

          Worked on Chrome/Linux and Firefox/Linux which covers two of the 3 main web browser engines. What browser and operating system are you using?

          Also try pressing Shift when doing a page refresh prior to posting your next comment. Sometimes the javascript gets a bad copy of itself in the cache.

          • mike 29.1.1.1.1
            12 October 2012 at 4:32 pm

            Thanks lprent, I’m using XP and Google Chrome.

            • lprent 29.1.1.1.1.1
              12 October 2012 at 6:21 pm

              I have a virtualbox for that. Probably won’t get to it until tomorrow… It has been a long hard day getting the release build script running properly.

  30. starlight 30
    12 October 2012 at 1:29 pm

    I have searched the interweb to find out just when simon power resigned and when
    he left parliament.
    The herald issue on wednesday 2/3/2011 there was a write up covering powers
    retirement,which was going to take affect 11/11.
    He was minister of justice,commerce,state owned enterprises,minister
    responsible for the law commission,associate finance minister, and deputy
    leader of the house.
    Key and English supported his move.

    Sorry can’t link

    • Anne 30.1
      12 October 2012 at 3:13 pm

      That’s interesting starlight. It suggests Power made his decision to quit politics after the raid on Dotcom’s home and his subsequent arrest. There may not be any link, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if time proved there was…

      • deuto 30.1.1
        12 October 2012 at 3:21 pm

        Doesn’t fit timewise, Anne.

        Power announced his pending departure in March 2011, not 2012. The raid and arrest was in January 2012.

        • Anne 30.1.1.1
          12 October 2012 at 3:42 pm

          ooops you’re right deuto. It’s all getting a bit confusing.

          An important point I heard David Shearer make in a radio interview today. He reminded the interviewer (Marcus Lush who appeared to be trying to trip him up) that in August the GCSB had arranged for Bill English to sign a certificate… preventing any information concerning the fact the GCSB were even involved in the Dotcom case from becoming public knowledge. Fortunately for us, the judge presiding over the court proceedings thought differently and the certificate ended up in File 13.

          Now, that suggests to me that any videos that were in existence would have been erased by now and the GCSB hierarchy would be in full damage control mode. In such circumstances, it just might be wise to take some of their claims with a wee grain of salt?

      • starlight 30.1.2
        12 October 2012 at 7:31 pm

        Dotcom residency was granted 23rd nov 2010, Power’s resignation release to
        media 2/3/2011, to take affect 11/11, about the same time as spying began,raid
        was on 20/1/2012
        thejackalman.blogspot.co.nz has the timeline of the dotcom process.

        sorry but i am hopeless at getting links to work.

  31. tracey 31
    12 October 2012 at 1:41 pm

    if gcsb knows who leaked already does this mean they bug their own and if they do they wld also bug the cafeteria so have at least an audio of tge pms visit?

  32. Penny Bright 32
    12 October 2012 at 1:45 pm

    Remember John Key’s ‘TRANZRAIL eyes’ – when questioned about Tranzrail?

    Tranzrail http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeJSFVWKnsE

    Remember John Key’s ‘TRANZRAIL eyes’ – when questioned about Lord Ashcroft’s visit?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GwcCNdTYyQ

    What about John Key’s ‘TRANZRAIL eyes’ when questioned about talking to GCSB staff in their cafeteria?

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Secret-GCSB-recording-catches-Key-out—Labour/tabid/370/articleID/272405/Default.aspx

    Can NZ Prime Minister John Key be trusted?

    Nope.

    Not in my considered opinion as an ‘anti-corruption’ campaigner – who took a private prosecution against John Key over Tranzrail – after a formal written complain to the Police and SFO resulted in no action being taken.

    (Thanks for the links Logic97 🙂

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.co

    • mike e 32.1
      12 October 2012 at 3:04 pm

      John keys body language was looking pretty sick when he was put on the spot.
      He looked about 20 years older!
      When his pants caught fire!
      PinoKeyNose

  33. Wayne (a different one) 33
    12 October 2012 at 2:52 pm

    If the Labour Party has stooges inside the GSCB leaking information to them – then folks that is bordering on treason!

    Just heard the tape of your glorious leader on Radio Live this morning with Rodney Hide – what a buffoon – um’n’ah didn’t have a clue on what he was saying. Rodney tied him in knots.

    Me thinks Mr Shearer has just pointed both barrels at his own head over this one – it’s just a matter of time before it goes off.

    Surely, you people don’t believe this guy can run the country – c’mon guys you are really taking the piss aren’t you?

    [lprent: We already have one Wayne regularly writing here. Pick a different handle. I have modified this comment’s handle. ]

    • McFlock 33.1
      12 October 2012 at 3:30 pm

      lol
             
      It doesn’t matter how much you spray and spray,
      beneath the lavender notes,
      there is the unmistakable whiff of shit.
       

    • mike 33.2
      12 October 2012 at 3:46 pm

      lol +2

      Surely, you people don’t still trust John I-don’t know I-can’t-comment I-can’t-remember It slipped-my-mind I-wasn’t-at-the-meeting I-never-been-briefed unusual-as-it-may-seem nobody-told-me things-get-dynamic I-don’t-need-to-read-the-report I-can’t-be-certain who-knows so-what committed-to-trying I-knew-nothing-about-it Key?

      Who’s taking the piss?

      • mike e 33.2.1
        12 October 2012 at 4:21 pm

        Wayne is on planet key no toilets so he full of #%it!

        • Wayne (a different one) 33.2.1.1
          12 October 2012 at 5:34 pm

          Thanks for the kind words Mike – I wouldn’t have expected anything less from a Labour supporter, but then when you think of it – it’s a learn’t trait. Your Politicians have a propensity to the gutter style & nasty bitter commentary. Cynical and enviious of anyone who succeeds in this country – I think it’s called the “tall poppy” syndrome.

          I’ll just reiterate my earlier comments, this is going to backfire big time on Mr Shearer and the Labour Party, just watch and wait.

          • mike 33.2.1.1.1
            12 October 2012 at 6:11 pm

            1. It’s hilarious how when a RWNJ takes the piss out of a left politician, and someone responds by taking the piss out of a right politician, the NJ gets all indignant about some kind of ‘low blow’. “Gutter style,” “nasty bitter.” But I guess that’s what the NJ in RWNJ is for.

            If you want to see some truly nasty comments a 5 minute scroll through Whaleoil will make this place look like a tea and cucumber sandwich party.

            2. My ‘kind words’ are paraphrases or quotes from John Key.

            3. I’m not a Labour supporter. I have been voting Green for a while, and I’m likely to do so again in 2014 as they are the least shite party that has the power to get rid of the con artists who are currently in charge.

            4. Not interested in your silly tall poppy syndrome strawman.

            5. Whether or not this tape thing will be bad for Labour, we’ll see, but I do note that John Key has had his face in a bucket of shit for some weeks now.

            • McFlock 33.2.1.1.1.1
              12 October 2012 at 6:25 pm

              FWIW, “Tall Poppy Syndrome” is the opiate of the 0.05%.
                 
              Otherwise they might have to consider the possibility that people hate over-privileged blow-hards because over-privileged blow-hards are jerks.

          • lprent 33.2.1.1.2
            12 October 2012 at 6:15 pm

            There are quite a variety of people commenting here.

            Assuming that people on the left support only Labour or indeed support, vote for, or are members of any particular party often causes you to get mashed. If it happens too much, then I or one of the moderators will get irritated by the resulting meaningless flames and boot you for being a troll.

          • blue leopard 33.2.1.1.3
            12 October 2012 at 6:25 pm

            I find it interesting that, that PR guy Hooton came on The Standard yesterday confidently “predicting” this angle and lo and behold today its “show me the tapes” from a Mr I-don’t know I-can’t-comment I-can’t-remember It slipped-my-mind I-wasn’t-at-the-meeting I-never-been-briefed unusual-as-it-may-seem nobody-told-me things-get-dynamic I-don’t-need-to-read-the-report I-can’t-be-certain who-knows so-what committed-to-trying I-knew-nothing-about-it Key (yeah I likes that Mike!) looking like he’s got his humour back (I wonder why?)
            … and now this Wayne-a different one (lol lprent’s humour) shows up promoting it too. Go the Gnats PR guys.

            Yawn It really doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work out what’s going on here.

            Just hope the rest of NZ are not so gormless as to believe this latest “there-are-no-recordings” approach.

            We all know that if there are no recordings that is only because they’ve been destroyed.

            • Matthew Hooton 33.2.1.1.3.1
              12 October 2012 at 8:24 pm

              You’re right, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work out what is going on here.
              What happened is that Shearer, egged on by Robertson/Mold (was Shearer being set up) made an obvious and basic political mistake talking about a video or tape that was about to come his way.
              From the moment he did that, it was obvious to anyone with even a few years’ experience in politics (I have about 20) how the story would develop, and so it has.
              Maybe The Standard commentators who back Cunliffe are right after all. Although I suspect he would have gone for the same naive tactic.
              Just always remember, anyone interested in political strategy: The promised video never exists (or almost never exists. If there is a video, the source would give it to you at the first meeting, not promise it “just as soon as you raise the issue in the media for me Mr/Ms Opposition MP”.

              PS. I’m not defending the PM here or making any comment about his performance whatsoever. He is (or at least was) in big trouble over the issue. My comments are limited to Labour’s incredible Political Strategy 101 error.

              • Colonial Viper …
                12 October 2012 at 8:27 pm

                Don’t give up on Shearer yet mate, he’s not even been in for 12 months.

              • mickysavage …
                12 October 2012 at 8:35 pm

                So Matthew tell me this.  I agree that the Key response should have been “show me the tape”.  But Key’s actual response gave legitimacy to Shearer’s claim and Slater’s dog attack mode gave further legitimacy to it.  

                If Shearer was talking out of his arse they should have said this.  But they did not.  So all that I can conclude from this is that Key actually did talk about Dotcom and is not prepared to deny it because he knows this will be a lie.

                Three years ago CT would have been all over this and presented a difficult to respond to story.  Now it feels like KC (Keystone Cops) is running the PR campaign.

                Have things got this bad? 

                • Matthew Hooton …
                  12 October 2012 at 8:40 pm

                  I think both Mr Key and Mr Shearer will want to – to use the words – “move on” from this as soon as possible. Mr Key looks like he wasn’t doing his job overseeing the spy agencies. Mr Shearer looks like someone who will just make things up or, worse, be led up the garden path by dopey advisors.

                  • mickysavage …
                    12 October 2012 at 8:43 pm

                    But if Shearer was making it up why didn’t Key say this from the start?  When you don’t deny something, even a smear, people tend to think that there is something in what was said.

                    This was really amateurish of Key.  It is like he is not even bothered in addressing the smears that have the potential of defining what he actually is. 

                    PS: Why should Shearer back down?

                    • Matthew Hooton …
                      12 October 2012 at 8:50 pm

                      But Shearer has backed down. Listen to this: http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2012/10/shearer-adds-to-labour-legal-problems
                      Total disaster for him.

                    • mickysavage …
                      12 October 2012 at 9:02 pm

                      But Matthew I thought you were trying to say that Shearer was doing really well …

                      I would not call it a backdown.  What I would be really interested in is Key coming out and saying “I did not say any such thing and here is the tape to prove it”.

                      What we have now is Shearer saying that X has happened and Key saying “I can’t remember”.  One could insist on Shearer coming up with conclusive proof but before doing so I would think that Key should come out and say “it did not happen”.  Only if that happens do we need to go through the process of working out who is telling fibs.

                      I really wish Key would say what he actually said.

                      This particular statement could then be lined up with a number of other statements that he has said about Kimdotcom.  Eventually the truth will come out.

                      And then the population of NZ can conclude whether Key was mistaken, telling fibs or mistakenly telling fibs.

                    • gobsmacked …
                      12 October 2012 at 9:11 pm

                      We don’t need to listen to know that Shearer did badly in a radio interview. That’s the default position.

                      Overall, this is quite a useful dry run. The more the polls improve (and they will), the more Shearer will be under pressure – not least from people like Matthew. Better to see that now than 2 years down the track.

                      Labour’s wishful thinkers will need to accept that crossing your fingers and hoping will not magically transform David Shearer into a communicator, so in the end … they can win despite their leader (possible), or get a new one (probable).

                      We all know this already, but not everyone wants to say so, of course.

                    • xtasy …
                      12 October 2012 at 9:25 pm

                      Matthew Hooton: That is nonsense, what you claim!

                      I admit, it was a poor performance by Shearer, and that is why he will need to be replaced by a more articulate and confident speaker and leader well before the next election. Naturally he is the “cautious” type of person, while Rodney Hide is the very assertive kind of person (once also accused of bullying by an ACT Party member!).

                      So that makes Shearer look and sound defensive.

                      He did though not back down at all. Shearer confirms that they would not have gone public with the comments and critical questions to Key, had they not sufficient confidence in the information being true. Also Shearer says he understands there was a video recording, which in context of what I just said, means that he will have sufficient trust in the source.

                      It appears that one source has been exposed. It was not intended to have this happen, but now it is public.

                      So while Rodney and you suggest that Shearer’s cautious replies to Rodney’s questions, which are signs of him wanting to protect the source(s), mean that he is relying on unreliable information, Shearer actually stuck by what he had said before.

                      Key now claims he was told by senior GCSB staff that there was no recording made. Rodney thinks that the GCSB is “credible”. Yet we had the same “credibility” granted to the top heads of ACC, that was previously relied on by ministers and others. They were later exposed as liars, or at least, persons who had to admit they contradicted themselves.

                      I know also of other top guys in government departments and agencies having been “convenient” with the truth. One such involves also some people at WINZ. So Key can say he relies on what he was told by GCSB, which he uses to try and be let off the hook. Problem is, nobody properly checks and investigates what goes on at GCSB. So nothing can be proved or disproved, unless someone will leak stuff, risking her or his job, and possible legal action.

                    • lurgee …
                      12 October 2012 at 10:26 pm

                      It’s deeply unsettling to find myself agreeing with Matthew Hooton – MATTHEW HOOTON – but on this occasion I am. I think Shearer has overplayed this. He’s gone too far, too quick. Unless the tape surfaces, he’s going to look bad – because people who don’t already entertain negative opinions of Mr Key aren’t going to change their opinion over some mythical tape, nor are they going to buy into the palpable wishful thinking evident on this thread. Even if this story is 100%, unless the tape surfaces, or some absolutely compelling evidence of Key’s duplicity, then it counts for nothing. Less than nothing, because the more Shearer and Labour push it, the more credibility they will lose with the public because it will sound like a hysterical fuss over something very abstruse.

                  • xtasy …
                    12 October 2012 at 8:57 pm

                    NO, Matthew – you are trying to mislead us into believing there is nothing of substance behind what Shearer exposed.

                    There is evidendly something behind it, which was proved by Key’s uncertain composure, his reaction, his initial (later disproved) denials and so forth.

                    To claim that Shearer’s advisors just make such information up would be utterly foolish, more a school kids stupid agenda to discredit someone.

                    You underestimate Labour and Shearer. I am not a fan of his and also critical of Labour, but they would never go ahead and tell the media such things, if they would not be absolutely sure that there is some truth in this.

                    • karol …
                      12 October 2012 at 9:11 pm

                      Running out of the correct reply buttons, but on the allegations of a crime by leaking to Shearer, here is a legal opinion:
                       

                      So while passing on information about what the Prime Minister (allegedly) said during lunch with them at the cafe may raise employment issues under the State Sector Act, it just isn’t a criminal matter. 
                      But, of course, I may be wrong and the unnamed blogger may have improved his understanding of the law since the last time he tried putting his interpretation skills to the test.

                    • lurgee …
                      12 October 2012 at 10:29 pm

                      Unless there is a tape at the bottom of this shit barrel, it doesn’t really matter. Nothing can be proved, no more damage can be done. We’ve knocked 1-2% of National’s rating, permanently. It is unlikely anything else will come of it. Move on. Unless there is some dynamite out there, Key will not be exploded over this.

                    • blue leopard …
                      12 October 2012 at 11:26 pm

                      Yeah..look the thing Mr Hooton omits to acknowledge in his framing of events-and I would expect him to know this tactic-is where sowing doubt is enough. Mr Shearer has done this by mentioning the tapes.

                      We have now had the opportunity to view Mr Key’s thunderous and sulky looks when he didn’t have an answer (other than statements involving ‘clauses’ such as “not as far as I recall” etc – see Mike 33.2), and then, how when finally he had a solid bit of information and distraction to cling onto, his dismissive arrogance started returning (we haven’t seen that for a few weeks now have we?).

                      Viewing these contrasting responses from Mr Key and the complete void of serious concern over what has been going on, and ensuing non-responsiveness to further enquiry (as Mr Shearer pointed out) speaks volumes as to Mr Key’s insincerity over the whole series of events.

                      I believe there is/was a recording, however there didn’t need to be for this tactic to achieve its aim. Arguments against Labour’s move are simply more smoke and mirrors.

                    • mike …
                      13 October 2012 at 3:32 am

                      Shearer actually came over quite well on the lead 3 news story. I also enjoyed the intro with the GCSB employees wheeling dismantled hardrives and makita drills into work. Yeah NZ spys know how to roll on the downlow. Subtle guys, real subtle.

                      So much for Hooten’s ‘the sky is falling for Labour’ talk. He reckons this has distracted attention to Shearer’s credibility, looks to me like the whole GCSB issue roaring along quite nicely.

                      Key can yell “Show me the tape” all he wants, he’s the one who came out looking dodgy on the news over this with his ‘I can’t recall, gee I make quips all the time so I guess I could have made one about the high profile Dotcom after having been briefed about the massive armed raid on his mansion in my electorate involving the FBI. And there does exist a possible universe where I then had all memory of this briefing vanish from my brain, so I guess I’m in the clear on this matter.’

                      And Shearer has never said he has the tape, nor has he promised to produce it. Demand an apology for making a claim from an unnamed source without producing evidence? Has Key apologised for the S&P episode? What’s the difference?

                      Shearer’s claims are a deadend story for the media. If no tape emerges, then, well, no tape emerges. Then we are down to a comparison of Key’s vs Shearer’s perceived personal credibility as they each imply that the other is full of shit. Hands up who’s loving Key’s credibility these days. This boy has cried wolf and shrugged his shoulders and said “I’m not bovvered” far too many times. Oh and there’s still the massive implausibility of the offered explanation for the GCSB’s incompetence to explain. There’s that.

                      I’d still like to know how Labour’s GCSB source got leaked, (if it did, is this clear yet?), when I heard that I thought ‘is someone playing Shearer?’ It might be that Shearer has been politically naive here, and that there is some internal Labour stuff behind this. If so then maybe he deserves to be ousted for Cunliffe. I can’t see that helping National. Nor hurting Labour.

                      I’m voting Green anyway, who have handled this issue quite well.

              • xtasy …
                12 October 2012 at 8:49 pm

                Yes, Matthew, I was thinking that when the news broke last night. Shearer should not have talked about a video that was apparently made at that meeting Key had with SCBS staff in the lunch room. He should have waited until he had at least an extract of it, where certain faces could have been made unclear, so to “protect” the agency staff, yet allowing the face of Key to be visible.

                All this can be done, and it was a mistake that Shearer made, how he raised the issue.

                Once there was any mention of a video recording, agency staff were able to make every effort to “get rid” of it, so naturally now there likely is no recording anymore (unless a copy is outside of the GCSB and kept as unofficial video).

                Key has though been shown to have contradicted himself and not come out with the full truth. First he denied any such meeting took place, then he did accept there was one, during which he made “off the cuff remarks”.

                With such truths now coming out, any intelligent observer will ask: If he conveniently does not (want to) remember certain things and makes public statements, or gives answers in the House, which are later proved as incorrect, that man CANNOT be TRUSTED at all!

                There is more in the closet, and I and many others want this exposed!

          • mike e 33.2.1.1.4
            12 October 2012 at 8:32 pm

            I thought you would have forgotten that by now!

          • starlight 33.2.1.1.5
            13 October 2012 at 11:59 am

            Aye, but when that ‘tall poppy’ is climbing up the ladder,the ‘boot’ comes
            down ‘firmly’ on those comming up from the bottom rung, spot the
            difference.

  34. Logie97 34
    12 October 2012 at 5:34 pm

    So the spooks have just taken three days inspecting the hard drives for any official recordings of the “Cafeteria” conversation – now why would they have bothered to do that when they advised the PM at the time that there would not be any official recording of the address in the Cafeteria. Now that smells incredibly odd. Someone showing further economy with the truth …

    p.s has anyone actually laughed at the “multitude of quips/jokes” that this guy is reputed to have cracked over time … (other than his wife of course)?

    • Anne 34.1
      12 October 2012 at 6:37 pm

      My sympathies lie with the ‘minions’ at the lower end of the heap at the DGSB who were only doing what they were instructed to do. I have little to no sympathy for their bosses – and in this case particularly John Key. As someone who was a Public Service whistle-blower (of sorts) in the late 1980s, I know to what extent some bosses will go, in order to cover their guilty a—s. It left me flabbergasted and deeply disillusioned. They nearly always get away with it because the power of the state intervenes to ensure no taint of dishonesty and/or wrong doing leaks into the public arena. Apparently that is considered more important than justice and fair play.

      • Colonial Viper 34.1.1
        12 October 2012 at 8:28 pm

        at the lower end of the heap at the DGSB

        Curiously, the DGSE is the French intelligence service.

        • Matthew Hooton 34.1.1.1
          12 October 2012 at 8:29 pm

          Maybe they have the tape?

          • mike e 34.1.1.1.1
            12 October 2012 at 8:43 pm

            The old slow striptease routine aye Mad hatter!
            If they do they will want to maximise the impact!
            looking at keys body language he was not happy swallowing that dead rat!
            Advice to key another overseas trip urgently!
            Kiss babies stir up the plebs!

            • mike e 34.1.1.1.1.1
              12 October 2012 at 8:45 pm

              Ever since Key made mention of no toilets on planet Key he’s been in ..it up to his eyeballs!

        • Anne 34.1.1.2
          12 October 2012 at 8:31 pm

          Oh dear… :D.

          Was reading some stuff on the Rainbow Warrior bombing in recent weeks.

          Maybe they have the tape?

          Wouldn’t put anything past that lot. 😀

  35. captain hook 35
    12 October 2012 at 6:18 pm

    who guards the guardians?

    • mike 35.1
      12 October 2012 at 6:24 pm

      John “I know nothing about it” Key and Paul “I can’t figure out what you’re talking about” Neazor.

  36. Chris 36
    12 October 2012 at 8:21 pm

    Key seems confident enough to suggest Shearer should apologise.This, coming from someone who blatantly lied in Parliament about Standard and Poors downgrading us if Labour got in. In the end having to wave a so called e mail from a reliable source who he refused to name. If he thinks Shearer should apologise then it is about time he gave a long overdue apology for his outrageous behavior in the house. Oh, and also the throat slitting gesture and accusation to Phil Goff for staging the incident when that poor man tried to jump over the balcony.The stupiud little man was never held to account for either accusations/statements.

    • Pascal's bookie 36.1
      12 October 2012 at 8:39 pm

      nah, that’s not confidence, it’s reframing.

      I note he didn’t say exactly what he thinks Shearer should apologise for and to whom. Which is what you do if yo mean it because it gets the offense in peoples mind and makes them think, ‘yeah, that’s pretty nasty’

      Confident would have been “Shearer needs to aplogise to X for saying “Y” which was an outrageous smear”.

      pretty hard to fill in those placeholders without sounding like an idiot.

      “Shearer needs to aplogise to the GCSB for saying they had a tape of me telling the truth to them which was an outrageous smear”

      etc

  37. karol 37
    12 October 2012 at 8:35 pm

    John Key, what a joker!  Just what the country needs in a PM: 🙄 Pity about his memory.
     

    John Key on his sense of humour …

    “I’m notorious for cracking jokes”

    “To be honest with you I can’t remember the jokes I cracked in LA [last week]”

    “I often get up and crack jokes about topical events”

    “I crack jokes about everything from water to ACC”

    “I go out there and speak and entertain thousands and thousands of people [every] week. I can be straight-laced and completely boring if you want me to be but I don’t really see how that’s going to do much”
     

  38. Stephen 38
    12 October 2012 at 8:36 pm

    So, can someone point me at a chronology of the Dotcom saga?

    See, I could have sworn that after Feb Key was still claiming he never heard of Dotcom. So how could he also be cracking topical jokes earlier?

    Perhaps the real secret they’re trying to protect here is time travel.

    • karol 38.1
      12 October 2012 at 8:43 pm

      Key would have heard of Dotcom in February 2012.  Dotcom was arrested and it was all over the news on 20 January.  Key said he hadn’t heard about Dotcom before that.
       
      Key said he didn’t know til 17 September 2012 that GCSB had been involved in spying on him – that is the issue here.

      • Colonial Viper 38.1.1
        12 October 2012 at 8:48 pm

        It remains unbelievable that the GCSB did not report to Key their role in the successful apprehension of Dotcom.

  39. muzza 39
    12 October 2012 at 9:06 pm

    http://laudafinem.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/john-key-greedy-merchant-banker-or-benevolent-leader/

    Excellent stuff here from these guys as well…..They even managed to come across Iain Parkers fine blog!

    Look at the eyes….

  40. freedom 40
    12 October 2012 at 9:18 pm

    was laying back at work watching Thor, browsing through Stuff and saw this

    ” But he said: ”On the 17 September this year I had the first briefing that I can recall about Mr Dotcom.” He insisted: ”I stand by everything I said.” ”

    it’s just so frikkin hilarious it makes you cry,
    then he goes on with “The agency is notorious for very high ethical standards -”
    Our Prime Minister wants us to believe eight months went by before anyone briefed him on DotCom.
    Biggest International incident in NZ since Rainbow Warrior ( or a certain three way) and no-one bothers to brief the PM ?

    January 20: DotCom’s Mansion is raided
    September 17: Key is briefed about a raid that had been global news for eight months

    i think i have finally cottoned onto their game, they want the mind-buggering exasperation to cause multiple health issues and erradicate the populace thus allowing the hollow men to walk on into the brighter future without opposition

    • muzza 40.1
      12 October 2012 at 9:41 pm

      think i have finally cottoned onto their game, they want the mind-buggering exasperation to cause multiple health issues and erradicate the populace thus allowing the hollow men to walk on into the brighter future without opposition

      Not too far off mate…People are already dying off or leaving, the scorched earth policy must have reason behind it…

  41. Stan 41
    15 October 2012 at 12:28 pm

    Shit you finally have it, the smoking gun that will put Key away, no more sleepless nights !