The Repentant Right

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1. OnceWasTim 1

   27 March 2019 at 10:38 am

   Good post @ TRP.
   Except that I’d also suggest that it’s not just National, ACT and NZF that need keep an eye on the ball, but ALL political parties.
   Some people that have suddenly become all contrite, supposedly self-aware and concerned are no more so today than they were yesterday. It’s just that they know they’re being watched
   • solkta 1.1

     27 March 2019 at 11:30 am

     Can’t really see these people making any inroads to the Greens. Can’t see them wanting to try.
     • OnceWasTim 1.1.1

       27 March 2019 at 11:56 am

       True, although there are a few Labour voters (the working man ‘stereotype’ wearing high viz who has only ever voted ‘Labour’), that’s not above calling people ‘towelies’ or rag heads when they think they’re amongst like-minds. (In a just-joking kind of way of course.)
       Supremacists will target some of them if they think they can get traction.
       • Maggie 1.1.1.1

         27 March 2019 at 2:52 pm

         Smart thinking Tim. You’re right. It’s important that we don’t dismiss any potential route. Loads of ‘latent’ racist hide in plain sight and only ‘come out’ when they feel it’s safe to do so.
       • Ad 1.1.1.2

         27 March 2019 at 3:13 pm

         That is not true in my company. Suffice to say we are not small in Australasia.

         Several of my company were shot in Christchurch, and we are still responding internally.

         Leave your shit generalisations about us to yourself unless you’ve got some evidence.
         • OnceWasTim 1.1.1.2.1

           27 March 2019 at 6:57 pm

           We may know some of the same people then @ Ad and I’m actually quite surprised at your response.
           Personal experience and the experiences of others I know is enough ‘evidence’ for me at least, and those that have been the butt of all that ‘just joking’ shit.
           Maybe you should get out a bit more, or maybe just re-read what I said including the word ‘stereotype’
         • patricia bremner 1.1.1.2.2

           27 March 2019 at 11:59 pm

           Oh Ad, how terrible, I can’t imagine the shock and pain. No one here would want to cause more pain, but it is true some people are thoughtless and make fun of difference in workplaces. The chicken pecking syndrome. I suffered it being a red head.
         • greywarshark 1.1.1.2.3

           28 March 2019 at 10:35 am

           Discussion about possible problems based on observed examples and general knowledge labelled ‘shit generalisations’ indicates the power and force of shock and heightened sensitivity I have observed at the moment.
           I don’t think that is a shit generalisation, just a thoughtful statement.
           • OnceWasTim 1.1.1.2.3.1

             28 March 2019 at 1:56 pm

             Well my point being that supremacist/exceptionalist views, racism, homophobia, misogyny et all comes in all shapes, sizes and flavours.

             It’s not limited to specific political parties, classes or demographic groups, although I do appreciate that there is some research showing young males with limited education, and feeling alienated seem to becoming a problem.

             And btw @grey, and Marty Mars and others (Patricia Bremner maybe):
             You might recall I mentioned a workplace assault last week that took place during the ‘two minutes of silence’. The assault by a guy who still seems to think the British Empire still exists.

             As expected, the employer has tried to minimise it all saying things like
             “You provoked him” and “You can resign if you want”
             (It’s possible the quick-to-punch-and goad-and provoke has been spoken to) though my suspicions are, not forcefully enough).

             We’ll see where it all goes, but at least it’s all been put on record if there’s any more of the “go back to your own country” and you’re not under the Queen” shit directed towards the citizen and resident (one from FIji, the other with Indian/Pakistan ancestry)
       • KJT 1.1.1.3

         27 March 2019 at 9:02 pm

         Working men gave up on Labour, after the 80’s.
       • SHG 1.1.1.4

         28 March 2019 at 1:31 pm

         One thing Nazis and the Left have in common: interesting opinions on the Jews.

         On Saturday, a group called Love Aotearoa Hate Racism organised a rally for the victims in Auckland’s Aotea Square.

         Ahmed Bhamji, chairman of the Mt Roskill Masjid E Umar, gave a speech questioning where the gunman got his funding from. He said he suspected it came from “Mossad” and “Zionist business”.

         Mossad is the foreign intelligence agency of Israel responsible for covert operations, intelligence gathering and counterterrorism.

         “I really want to say one thing today. Do you think this guy was alone… I want to ask you – where did he get the funding from?” he can be heard saying in video footage.

         “I stand here and I say I have a very very strong suspicion that there’s some group behind him and I am not afraid to say I feel Mossad is behind this.”

         One person can be heard shouting in support: “It’s the truth. Israel is behind this. That’s right!”

         https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-z…ch-attack.html
2. KJT 2

   27 March 2019 at 10:57 am

   Yes, they are arseholes and idiots, but thought policing them, or anyone else, is likely to rebound.
   Sacking someone, from a job unconnected with informing the public, even for, stupid right wing racist comments, seems to me more like conviction for “thought crime”.
   Increasing that individuals sense of being ostracised and excluded, is going to make things worse, not better.

   And, what if the next, right wing Government decides advocating for Green peace, for example, is a crime against the economy?

   Some of the most effective enablers of the alt right are on, breakfast TV.

   Some dangerous precedents are being set, here.

   The right wing do not need any encouragement, or example, to try and destroy the reputation and livelihood of anyone they don’t like. Nick Hagar is just one example.
   • Peter Christchurch NZ 2.1

     27 March 2019 at 11:03 am

     Yep, some extremist factions are definitely seeing this atrocity as an a way of force feeding their views on the public. That Placemakers sacking (IF it is true as reported), is disgraceful.
     • te reo putake 2.1.1

       27 March 2019 at 11:18 am

       That guy wasn’t sacked. He worked for a temp agency, not the firm.

       On a related matter, there is a bill before Parliament that would strengthen temp agency workers’ rights. I think it’s called the Triangular Relationships Bill.
       • Peter Christchurch NZ 2.1.1.1

         27 March 2019 at 11:36 am

         Re Temp workers rights : pleased to hear that, well overdue.

         And thanks for the correction – my mistake obviously!
   • Puckish Rogue 2.2

     27 March 2019 at 11:04 am

     Indeed
   • marty mars 2.3

     27 March 2019 at 11:32 am

     I linked to one today. That guy rattled his bullshit. Everyone felt uncomfortable and scared. The team members complained to management and the person couldn’t continue in that job. Good. Any manager is considering the team and if a person can’t modulate their speech and thoughts at a time like this i’d be fucken scared too.

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12216465
     • mac1 2.3.1

       27 March 2019 at 12:00 pm

       Read the article. Thanks for the citation. He admitted to being a bit OTT. He admitted hat he shut up after a while. Considering the topic and the timing, and the fact that he liked a far-right commentator because he raised interesting topics for debate, I’d say he said far more than enough, more than what he’s admitting to, and I’d also say his emotional intelligence probably only raised the issue of the effect of his words far too late.
     • mauī 2.3.2

       27 March 2019 at 12:54 pm

       The article says one person complained, not “everyone”. If everyone had complained then that would suggest they probably would have shut him down there and then, and told him this isn’t what we discuss in the workplace, etc, etc and incident averted.

       If Placemakers were genuinely concerned they could have called him in for a please explain, and discussed what this was all about. Found out he wasn’t a fascist, and then get on with having a mix of different people working for them with different views.
       • marty mars 2.3.2.1

         27 March 2019 at 4:13 pm

         Sure crisis actors you fink?
3. Peter Christchurch NZ 3

   27 March 2019 at 11:01 am

   Good post. But the Kyle Chapman types are unlikely to ever be a threat. They just like dressing up and being noticed (like the KKK bit on South Park).

   The real threats are the ones normally dressed, who spew forth racist and bigoted ignorance under the cloak of intellectual discussion and post these views on far right blogs. The likes of Whaleoil, which without Slater has noticeably moved to become a extreme Fundamentalist Christian/Islamophobia sight , pose the real danger as they groom extremist viewpoints.

   But I am also becoming very concerned that even legitimate discussions about immigration or apartheid practices in NZ are now being labelled as hate speech, like with ZB’s Chris Lynch . This is a certain recipe to create right wing extremist nutters.
   • marty mars 3.1

     27 March 2019 at 11:07 am

     “But really, the Kyle Chapman types are unlikely to ever be a threat.”

     A marae is often an ancestor. He is convicted of trying to burn down a marae. No threat to some. Threat to others. Imagine how some thought watching his nazishit. Imagine how some thought about him running for mayor 3 times. The Kyle Chapman types are exactly the ones to watch out for imo because the are thick enough to actually do things and that spreads terror as much as hate speech, burning crosses or Islamophobia t-shirts.
     • Peter Christchurch NZ 3.1.1

       27 March 2019 at 11:20 am

       Yes but he is allowed to stand for office if he so desires. His trashing in the polls each time clearly says what most Kiwis think of him. Thick yes, but also obvious. I was not aware of the attempt to burn down a marae.
     • KJT 3.1.2

       27 March 2019 at 11:29 am

       Yes I agree.
       However, does driving them underground remove the threat?

       So far public ridicule seems to have been the most effective, in reducing Nazi group numbers.
       • marty mars 3.1.2.1

         27 March 2019 at 11:51 am

         I think creating an environment, with less visible and tolerated racism and race/religion haters, enables us to build that world permanently.
         • KJT 3.1.2.1.1

           27 March 2019 at 9:05 pm

           I think Sabine is correct.

           Looking at root causes is going to be more effective long term, than condemnation.
           • marty mars 3.1.2.1.1.1

             27 March 2019 at 11:06 pm

             So the people being hated on just have to turn the other cheek and be the bigger people cos the rights of the haters are more important. And condemnation and ostracizing the haters might drive them underground – is that the way it is or have i got it wrong?
             • Maggie …

               28 March 2019 at 12:01 am

               It’s not a zero-sum game Marty. You can deal with the filth they spew AND deal with the root cause. Ultimately dealing with the root cause is a solution that respects the rights of victims to not be exposed to further abuse.
               • marty mars …

                 28 March 2019 at 8:44 am

                 I know it’s not and it depends what values are placed first. Put people first especially those being hated on and everything will be supported from that.
             • KJT …

               28 March 2019 at 4:58 am

               It is the same as crime.
               Is your goal less crime, or revenge?
             • KJT …

               28 March 2019 at 7:45 am

               I fully understand why you take this position.
               I’ve felt like punching a few smug arseholes, myself.
               But. What sort of world do we want?
               • marty mars …

                 28 March 2019 at 8:48 am

                 One where people are safe to walk the streets without being abused for their religion or skin pigmentation.
                 • KJT …

                   28 March 2019 at 9:52 am

                   Agree.

                   There is a but from me.

                   How do we get from multihued toddlers happily playing together, to fear and loathing of the “other”.

                   And. How do we stop that process?
4. Bewildered 4

   27 March 2019 at 11:18 am

   While closing down the white supremist organisation let’s also do the same to gangs who create destruction and misery day in and day out, they are just as much terriost but due to familiarity’s don’t have shock value but actually cause more harm
   • KJT 4.1

     27 March 2019 at 11:26 am

     Definitely close down the National party. Their bene bashing hate has destroyed the lives of hundreds of thousands of people.
     Labour is not guiltless, either.
     • RedLogix 4.1.1

       27 March 2019 at 5:10 pm

       And right there is the problem; over-reach. For the past 10 days the left in this country has been gifted an extraordinary legacy of moral authority, at the cost of 50 lives and a lasting trauma for all who came in contact with it’s malevolence.

       And it’s been very sobering to see what some people have proposed doing with it. OK so we banned the video, then the manifesto, then silenced all the unpleasant nazis and skinheads, then anyone with an opinion on Islam, and then said that all white people were responsible because supremacy.

       Now without pausing for breath we’re banning the National and Labour Party, leaving presumably only the Greens standing. Are you sure all the Green party members are perfectly pure? Maybe a purge or two will sort them out.

       Where were you going to draw the line again? OK so I know your commenting history and I’ve a sense of what you mean, but imagine someone new to this site reading that comment above and taking it at face value. Especially if they’re looking for something to recast in the worst possible light.
       • KJT 4.1.1.1

         27 March 2019 at 9:29 pm

         I know it is confronting to accept that your own, and I include myself, “othering” and tolerance of inhumanity, is part of the problem.

         The real question is how much the tolerant should tolerate the intolerant?
         Or the tolerant the intolerable.

         I think any banning or censorship by the left will backfire. Because, in our society at present, the intolerant and unethical, what I would call right wing, if you like, have the power.

         The “winner takes all” Entitled, cheating, lack of moral compass, is so common in our centres of power, it goes almost unnoticed. I’ve been close enough to see it.

         Which is why Jacinda Adern showing compassion and concern, is so startling.

         I haven’t seen anyone saying all white people. I’ve seen Golriz and Marama holding up a mirror to some, who needed it.
         Who along with many others who have acknowledged the concern, compassion and empathy shown by the majority of New Zealanders, white ones included.

         Which leads me to hope that the Governments of unconcern, of the cheats and of the greedy, are an aberration which doesn’t reflect most of us.
         • marty mars 4.1.1.1.1

           27 March 2019 at 10:19 pm

           Awesome comment mate – really nicely put – thanks
           • patricia bremner 4.1.1.1.1.1

             28 March 2019 at 1:40 pm

             Recently my husband commented that poor employment practice and past money cheats from the big end of town are being held to account.

             He couldn’t believe one was given home detention though. as he put it, free to watch netflix swim in his pool and order in delicacies. Ok for some. A poor beneficiary would more likely get gaol, Especially as the crime involved 17 million. The elete always come out better off!!

             They make the rules, infiltrate government machinery and go slow when they don’t like something. Or they cling to a well paid position until their talons are pried off. (Muldoon)

             Sometimes they read the writing on the wall and mea culpa early.( Bolger)

             The fact that Jacinda Ardern put kindness a a desired quality made her the butt of the shock jocks and right wing spokespeople.

             As her manner and abilities were admired overseas, the attacks swapped to her partner, (which was nipped in the bud) then later to Winston. The chicken peck syndrome is played like pass the parcel. Nasty meme after meme.

             It isn’t a matter of secret police or people watching each other . We just need to bring some sense of kindness and decency into our everyday activities. 25000 people objected to Hoskins on TV. He was gone. We should do the same if he becomes too toxic on the radio, and the other well known voices of the right. Call it out.
         • RedLogix 4.1.1.1.2

           28 March 2019 at 3:56 am

           I think any banning or censorship by the left will backfire.

           Do you stand by your unambiguous wish to ban the National and Labour parties or not? Given that you are an active member of a party that forms at least part of the government, and a prominent Green activist here, it’s not an entirely moot question.

           You make it appear you have walked back on banning, on the pragmatic grounds that they ‘have all the power’ and it would backfire, but presumably in principle you still think it’s a good idea.

           The “winner takes all” Entitled, cheating, lack of moral compass, is so common in our centres of power,

           Indeed the direct implication of the Greens banning National and Labour if they held the power to do so could only be interpreted as exactly that.

           A month ago you would never have openly said such a thing, yet March 15 has gifted the left an unprecedented moral power, and now this is how you would like to use it; on a textbook, authoritarian example of othering and intolerance.

           Oh and just this week:

           Brunei is set to introduce new laws next week that could see LGBT people whipped or stoned to death for same-sex relations, according to human rights groups that have urged the country to abandon the plan.

           Muslims could face whipping or stoning for same-sex relations, adultery and rape

           Brunei delayed implementing the legislation after an international outcry in 2014

           A document posted to a government website shows it will come into effect next week

           Homosexuality is already illegal and punishable by up to 10 years imprisonment in the tiny sultanate, but the changes would see Brunei become the first Asian country to make homosexuality punishable by death.

           https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-26/lgbt-muslims-brunei-face-whipping,-stoning-under-new-laws/10938592

           Crickets ….
           • KJT 4.1.1.1.2.1

             28 March 2019 at 5:37 am

             That was rather tongue in cheek.
             As you would realise if you were not simply recycling Trotter.
             Aimed more at those who want to ban/ silence everything they don’t like. Which I thought was obvious.

             But I have high lighted the moral vacuum, that allows for 300 children in poverty, and the misogyny, racism and bene bashing inherent in the right wing attitude to poor brown mums, and others not in the right white club, many times before. Long before this happened.
             If you have followed my commenting, as you claim, you will know I have always advocated for a free, clear, honest, and open contest of ideas.
             Greedy entitled loons, like the recent one from federated farmers, always eventually, out, themselves.
             Not walking back from a ban on National, because I never supported one in the first place.
             • RedLogix …

               28 March 2019 at 6:01 am

               Not walking back from a ban on National, because I never supported one in the first place.

               As I clearly indicated above when I said OK so I know your commenting history and I’ve a sense of what you mean I understood you were speaking rhetorically, but that’s only because I know you somewhat and we share common values.

               But even though your words contradicted each other, in the interests of good faith I’ll accept your latter clarification … that you do not support a ban on National.

               But I’m not going to let you entirely off the hook here. In the context of March 15 you continue to conflate the actions of a dangerous, criminal extremist with the beliefs and values all conservatives … guilt by association. In your comment above you explicitly double down on this.

               Yet for a sense of exactly how dangerous this is, consider Ardern’s conspicuous embrace of NZ’s Islamic community over the past week; and how you would be rightly very cross with me indeed if I was to say this meant the NZ government, the Greens included, now endorsed stoning homosexuals to death.
               • KJT …

                 28 March 2019 at 6:23 am

                 What i wrote also. But you obviously didnt read.
                 “thought policing them, or anyone else, is likely to rebound.
                 Sacking someone, from a job unconnected with informing the public, even for, stupid right wing racist comments, seems to me more like conviction for “thought crime”.
                 Increasing that individuals sense of being ostracised and excluded, is going to make things worse, not better.
                 • RedLogix …

                   28 March 2019 at 6:35 am

                   Good. Especially your last point. Yet when a few days back I made exactly the same point wrt to ‘he who shall not be named’ … no-one liked that much at all.

                   Anyone can be empathetic and inclusive with people they like and identify with; it is how we treat the people we don’t like that is the true test. Our terrorist will face the full force of the law, and we will continue to politically contend with conservatives, but we fail a certain basic test when we dehumanise them.
                   • KJT …

                     28 March 2019 at 6:48 am

                     I don’t like using the term conservative.
                     That is my own natural inclination.
                     In my work we have a saying. “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it”.
                     Conservative I can work with. They often just need to see there is a need for change.
                     Much of what has been done over the last three decades, has not been conservative!
                     Right wing is not always fair either. I could say I am being lazy, using it as short hand for the Neo-liberal, greed is good right wing.
                     Obviously not all right wingers. But the ones who are in the ascendancy at present.
               • KJT …

                 28 March 2019 at 6:29 am

                 What hook?

                 Do you think the right wing, in National, and Labours, deliberate policy to impoverish so many people, which they have justified by dog whistling misogyny, racism and bene bashing, is not part of a continuum of hate?
                 I expect a better example from our political parties.

                 WTF, is an arsehole Government in Brunei got to do with it. By the way, I have worked in Brunei. I doubt their Government reflects the Veiw of most of the locals. Who don’t get any choice in their laws. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Brunei
                 • RedLogix …

                   28 March 2019 at 6:54 am

                   which they have justified by dog whistling misogyny, racism and bene bashing, is not part of a continuum of hate?

                   Everything exists on a continuum. Burning crosses on someone’s front lawn and farting in a crowded lift are both unpleasant and undesirable, but it would be absurd to imply this means any doofus in a lift must be a card carrying member of the KKK.

                   At your prompting I did go a read Trotter’s latest, and I have to agree “Davidson and Ghahraman need to ask themselves what the reaction of their parliamentary colleagues is likely to be if it becomes clear that their determination to leverage-off the Christchurch Mosque Shootings to unleash an uncompromising anti-racist campaign encompassing the whole of Pakeha New Zealand,“.

                   Again you can protest ‘that’s not what I meant’, but the Green’s failure to draw distinctions, their conflation of motives and their blatant guilt by association, which you have explicitly endorsed above, is plain enough.

                   Also you might want to look across the Tasman and consider the Australian Green’s disastrous performance this past year or so, for much the same reasons.
                   • KJT …

                     28 March 2019 at 7:08 am

                     It is only Trotter who objects to the “anti racist campaign” as he terms it.
                     In the light of events, Golriz and Marama’s asking that we examine our own racism and prejudice, is entirely appropriate.
                     And. One of the good things that may come out of all this.
                   • RedLogix …

                     28 March 2019 at 7:19 am

                     In the light of events, Golriz and Marama’s asking that we examine our own racism and prejudice, is entirely appropriate.

                     Again why? 99.999% of New Zealanders, from all backgrounds, were shocked and appalled at March 15. No-one thinks what he did was a good idea. Probably even the skin-heads and nazi’s in ChCh who don’t like Muslims at all, are pretty damned pissed off about it.

                     So precisely why does this give two Green Party MP’s an entry point to demand we all “examine our own racism and prejudice”?
                   • marty mars …

                     28 March 2019 at 8:38 am

                     Oh ffs

                     “So precisely why does this give two Green Party MP’s an entry point to demand we all “examine our own racism and prejudice”?”

                     what an absolute tool.
                 • RedLogix …

                   28 March 2019 at 7:00 am

                   WTF, is an arsehole Government in Brunei got to do with it.

                   So WTF does an arsehole loner terrorist got to do with the National Party? Or any conservative for that matter? Do you think they were consulted about his plan for mass murder?

                   Also I’ve yet to see the broad condemnation of the wider Islamic world, say the govt of Saudi for instance, speaking out against Brunei’s actions. Something along the lines “this is not us” might be appropriate.
                   • KJT …

                     28 March 2019 at 7:10 am

                     You think the use of racism to justify cruelty is not part of the same problem?
                     Who ever does it.
                   • KJT …

                     28 March 2019 at 7:22 am

                     Not sure what you are getting at here.
                     “Muslims do it too”?

                     As the Saudi’s are deliberately murdering people in Yemen, with weapons supplied by the “christian” USA, by the way, I don’t see them taking the moral high ground.
                     Muslims in New Zealand, that I work with, are trying to get away from extremism. They are as unhappy about these things as anybody. Note the Muslim communities support of a synagogue in New York, after mass killings there.
                   • RedLogix …

                     28 March 2019 at 7:28 am

                     You think the use of racism to justify cruelty is not part of the same problem?

                     Yes, but not all people with racist ideas are cruel. There is your logical fallacy, and conflating the two causes more problems than it solves.
                   • KJT []

                     28 March 2019 at 7:58 am

                     Not sure whether you are genuinely mis understanding or not. Given the time of the morning I will give you the benefit of doubt.

                     There is no logical fallacy in equating the cruelty I have seen in WINZ offices, directly caused by senior people in National, with extremism. The effects on peoples lives are still devastating. .
                     Only Jim Bolger had the guts to admit they had it wrong.
                   • RedLogix …

                     28 March 2019 at 7:48 am

                     Not sure what you are getting at here.
                     “Muslims do it too”?

                     I explicitly used that to point out the dangers of ‘guilt by association’. As I said above, does this govt’s embrace of the NZ Islamic community this past week, now mean that the NZ Greens endorse stoning homosexuals? Of course not, you would find that an absurd claim.

                     So why do you have so much difficulty understand that most Pakeha’s find it equally repugnant that somehow their ‘unexamined prejudice and racism’ is in some vague and unspecified way responsible for what happened in ChCh?
                   • KJT []

                     28 March 2019 at 8:06 am

                     You don’t actually believe that extremism is entirely unconnected with characterisation of brown people, as freaks, ferals, useless people, etc etc in main stream discourse
                   • RedLogix …

                     28 March 2019 at 8:16 am

                     There is no logical fallacy in equating the cruelty I have seen in WINZ offices, directly caused by senior people in National, with extremism.

                     Turning someone down for a benefit they should get is definitely a bad thing, we agree on that. But it’s not the same thing as the provocative murder of 50 people for a political purpose.

                     This is an intellectual sleight of hand the radical left has been doing for so long I think you cannot even see it any more.
                   • KJT …

                     28 March 2019 at 9:41 am

                     The “harming of people for a political purpose” is still there.

                     And both shows a lack of morality.

                     You don’t get to condone the foul treatment of the most disadvantaged in our society, and claim the people in power causing it, are somehow, not as bad as other types of evil.

                     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11913334
                     “More New Zealand children are killed by diseases linked to cold, damp, and overcrowded housing than in car crashes or drownings”.

                     It is not a slight of hand. It is simply fact. Poverty in New Zealand, was a deliberate policy choice, by the right.
                     And the deliberate use of “othering” and hate, to get public support, was intentional.

                     Even Wayne says, “there was too much equality”. To justify it.
                   • RedLogix …

                     28 March 2019 at 10:25 am

                     OK so by the logic you have laid out above the right wing in this country are all equally as culpable as our terrorist. You draw no moral nor practical distinction. So let’s assume I grant you this.

                     In which case you really do need to be honest about the logical outcome; if we are going to convict a mass murderer for 50 deaths and sentence him to life imprisonment; then there is no reason not to apply the exact same penalty to anyone who didn’t vote for the Alliance or the Greens.

                     Or maybe its a case of wrong reasoning leads to absurd outcomes.
                   • KJT …

                     28 March 2019 at 1:25 pm

                     No Red. I only think the leaders who knowingly caused the problem, should be jailed.

                     It is one of life’s anomalies that someone who smokes dope, who is only harming themselves, gets two years in jail, while someone who causes immeasurable harm to tens of thousands, gets a knighthood.
           • KJT 4.1.1.1.2.2

             28 March 2019 at 5:55 am

             Red. “They do it too” is not a reason.
5. cleangreen 5

   27 March 2019 at 11:18 am

   Best all political parties now wake up from their slumber and concentrate on the most serious issue ahead as we approach Armageddon.

   one week ago the University of Adelaide released this climate change report citing that even the IPCC is underselling climate change;

   https://phys.org/news/2019-03-ipcc-underselling-climate.html

   Study shows IPCC is underselling climate change
   March 19, 2019, University of Adelaide

   Credit: CC0 Public Domain
   A new study has revealed that the language used by the global climate change watchdog, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), is overly conservative – and therefore the threats are much greater than the Panel’s reports suggest.
   Published in the journal BioScience, the team of scientists from the University of Adelaide, Flinders University, the University of Bristol (UK), and the Spanish National Research Council has analysed the language used in the IPCC’s Fifth Assessment Report (from 2014).
   “We found that the main message from the reports—that our society is in climate emergency—is lost by overstatement of uncertainty and gets confused among the gigabytes of information,” says lead author Dr. Salvador Herrando-Pérez, from the University of Adelaide’s Environment Institute and Australian Centre for Ancient DNA.
   “The IPCC supports the overwhelming scientific consensus about human impact on climate change, so we would expect the reports’ vocabulary to be dominated by greater certainty on the state of climate science—but this is not the case.”
6. marty mars 6

   27 March 2019 at 11:25 am

   I have nothing for these converted ex-racists. I just have no time for words all self serving and dripping with pathos. Get out and do something and prove it Kyle you bastard. Let’s see your bullshit face doing something not just words. imo that is the real proof of the pudding – the real proof of repentance.
   • McFlock 6.1

     27 March 2019 at 5:48 pm

     first step would be for him to write down the names of all his former mates and hand over the list to the SIS/police. Be no end of help in figuring out how effective they are at putting together the network map.
     • RedLogix 6.1.1

       27 March 2019 at 6:07 pm

       Are you sure you know where to stop with this? In East Germany, hundreds of thousands finished up as Stasi informants:

       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi#Alleged_informants
       • McFlock 6.1.1.1

         27 March 2019 at 9:13 pm

         I figure we start and stop with anyone who wants everyone with any agency or existence in the world to be exactly like them. Nazis, ISIS, white supremacists, fascists, and so on.

         You happy nobody wants to steal your pearls now?
       • Sabine 6.1.1.2

         27 March 2019 at 10:46 pm

         you forgot to mention why they ended up as informants.
         btw, it was inofficial informant.

         like 90 % + of East Germans citizens over 18 were informants. Its what people do in a totalitarian regime where your own survival depends on not getting on the shit books of the state. So if he Stasi knocked on your door to politely ask you to keep an eye on yer neighbor, that is what you did. Never mind that they day before they asked the neighbor to keep an eye on you. And you better reported anything they wanted to know, as otherwise your child might not be going to uni, you might not be getting that car that you waited 15 years for, that promotion….not this year.

         panopticon someone called it.
         • McFlock 6.1.1.2.1

           27 March 2019 at 11:11 pm

           Interesting card index system, too.

           Whereas in NZ, it seems pretty evident that our security services are going to be playing catchup on the right wing for the next while. What was it, ten years of monthly intelligence briefings without reference to white supremacists and their ilk?

           So yeah, investigate it like any other criminal network.
           • Sabine 6.1.1.2.1.1

             27 March 2019 at 11:19 pm

             or you find out as they are doing in the States, that a lot of law enforcement is active in these groups 🙂
             • McFlock …

               28 March 2019 at 12:30 am

               Oh snap that’s funny because it’s true. Sigh.
     • Sabine 6.1.2

       27 March 2019 at 10:47 pm

       IF the SIS / police don’t already have then names then frankly they need more then just an overhaul.
7. Stuart Munro. 7

   27 March 2019 at 11:28 am

   Well, over the years we’ve seen undercover cops and more recently private detectives deployed against practically every Left or Green organization in NZ. Now that it has been unequivocally demonstrated that RWNJ constitute a greater threat, I look forward to their organizations being similarly monitored. Though Kyle Chapman himself may not be a threat, the milieu to which he belongs can no longer escape scrutiny.
   • KJT 7.1

     27 March 2019 at 11:32 am

     Stuart.

     We see some of the most harmful on TV, every morning.
     • Stuart Munro. 7.1.1

       27 March 2019 at 1:04 pm

       My sympathies. I never saw the point in starting my day with a dose of venal and stupid.
   • Anne 7.2

     27 March 2019 at 12:15 pm

     Yes. For years decent, law abiding people – who happened to support environmental protection groups and/or stood up and protested against racist ideology and the race for nuclear-armed superiority by the super powers in the 70s and 80s in particular – found themselves targeted as potentially harmful individuals.

     Then years later wadda y’know… they were shown to have been right all along, and the narrow mindset of the establishment wrong.
8. Tiger Mountain 8

   27 March 2019 at 11:39 am

   Jawhol! Kyle…

   NZ neo nazis can stay underground as long as they like…

   Classic description TRP–half master race, half snowflake…
9. Psycho Milt 9

   27 March 2019 at 1:00 pm

   It would be good if we help keep them from reforming by specifically criminalising hate groups.

   It would be good to remove freedom of expression and freedom of association by criminalising unpopular political groups? I’m not sure you understand what the word “good” means.
   • I feel love 9.1

     27 March 2019 at 3:49 pm

     “First they came for the right wing racists…”?
10. patricia bremner 10

    27 March 2019 at 1:17 pm

    Police as we know them were formed to protect property. The cry of “Law and Order, beloved of the Conservative wings of Politics is often used to keep workers and citizens in line and to establish the order of society the Right favour.

    Therefore Left dissidents activists unionists and those fighting for conservation or Maori rights will always be on the radar. The Right having the money and property look for ways to infiltrate, on Tv radio in print, so it follows they do the same on the internet.

    It took me many years to realise that the Right rationalise their money/property based belief systems through guises which are often diametrically opposed, hiding in plain sight. Religious trappings Charities Fundraisers and Businesses.

    The left have a chip on the shoulder, it comes from anger and hurt built from generations of ill treatment. When they do form groups they argue furiously on any point of law, enjoying stretching their intellect and testing theories but often they have to also work for and with the conservative forces in their lives, and have limited resources. When they do combine to form groups to raise funds they are targets for the machinery of the Right.

    The class system was broken down in early NZ, but two wars bought King/Queen and country back to the fore. Colonisation was done to defeat the old enemy France from taking over NZ. When smart early Maori saw the sale of lands and their loss of business opportunities they appealed to the Queen to protect their rights under her laws. In typical Right wing fashion there were two treaties. Enter the settlements.
    The complexity grows with new differing cultural and religious beliefs, but NZ people made our laws secular to avoid the “troubles” being imported. It worked for a while.

    The the Neo-Liberals infiltrated the Labour Party, changed our money system, and when the Right won the next election they finished the transformation removing hard won workers rights, and stripping back government and public services to a shadow. We have a new Government which is made up of 3 groups with beliefs spread over the spectrum, struggling to change laws to change lives.

    Now in a shrinking world we face fighting joined up groups of far right terrorists.
    For a while the home grown groups have been able to link up with others using the internet. Given the awful beliefs and deeds we have to ask “Why have they not been made illegal?” If they were, we could fiercely find their connections funds and strip them surely? They would leave a plain trail through the internet… so why have we been so slow to put them on our radar? Who or what stopped that happening.?

    This tragedy has thrown into huge relief how fractured our society had become, where minorities are telling tales of mistreatment which should have rung warning bells earlier. Perhaps because so many had been ground down to dealing with our day to day woes these instances were not widely reported or seen as affecting money or business? But this has focussed ordinary NZers, who want peace and safety for all citizens, and now are looking at those who would divide and destroy.

    Quite quickly voices have been raised.. talking of “Freedoms” Freedom of Speech Assembly and so on. When they talk of “Responsibilities” they would get a better hearing, as they are not paying for those freedoms… other groups in society are. Are these groups repentant or just sorry they have been shown up?
    Racism Islamophobia Extreme Right views should find no freedom here. IMO.
    • WILD KATIPO 10.1

      27 March 2019 at 2:53 pm

      Bewildered 4
      27 March 2019 at 11:18 am
      While closing down the white supremist organisation let’s also do the same to gangs who create destruction and misery day in and day out, they are just as much terriost but due to familiarity’s don’t have shock value but actually cause more harm

      Reply
      KJT 4.1
      27 March 2019 at 11:26 am
      Definitely close down the National party. Their bene bashing hate has destroyed the lives of hundreds of thousands of people.
      Labour is not guiltless, either.

      Two good posts…

      Leave no stone un-turned.
      • Skunk Weed 10.1.1

        28 March 2019 at 9:10 am

        The likes of the Rebels/Head Hunters/Tribesmen/Filthy Few do not add a lot of value to society IMHO ?
    • Maggie 10.2

      27 March 2019 at 4:34 pm

      “It took me many years to realise that the Right rationalise their money/property based belief systems through guises which are often diametrically opposed, hiding in plain sight. Religious trappings Charities Fundraisers and Businesses.”

      Interesting connection to Alt-right picking up the “blood and Soil” nationalist slogan expressing Nazi Germany’s ideal of a “racially” defined national body (“blood”) united with a settlement area (“soil”). This is how you know that forcing them underground won’t work. They’re driven to accrue concrete symbols of their beliefs and won’t be content to hold their perceived supremacy as an abstract.
      • Stuart Munro. 10.2.1

        27 March 2019 at 4:51 pm

        “forcing them underground won’t work. They’re driven to accrue concrete symbols ”

        Bunkers! Nazis love bunkers!
    • left_forward 10.3

      28 March 2019 at 6:46 am

      100% Pat.
11. Peter 11

    27 March 2019 at 3:37 pm

    I realise being driven underground is bad because worms thrive there rather than under the light.
12. Maggie 12

    27 March 2019 at 4:09 pm

    I don’t think we can have this conversation and not talk about why we have it. It’s not just NZ, it’s everywhere and whilst I’ll admit to enjoying this article very much I’m still compelled to ask ‘why’. Why are white men (and it is predominantly white men) are going to such extremes.

    I wrote an article about what I believe is really going on and it was a hard write. I’m Ngai Tahu and a feminist so turning my head to the plight of white men wasn’t, isn’t, easy but how else do we stop the insanity? How else do we stop the slaughter of innocent men women and children?

    The article is here if anyone wants to read it. It’s behind a paywall but if you open the link in an incognito tab you can read it for free.

    https://medium.com/@maggie.lawson.in.nz/rooting-out-racism-abdba67b83eb
    • patricia bremner 12.1

      27 March 2019 at 7:02 pm

      Thank you Maggie, some thought provoking material there. You suggest “Where to from here” and I think you are correct.

      I was thinking “Are these people on the Right repentant or just biding their time?”

      Tackling it from your thesis we could prevent contamination of the young men.

      Those who hold these ideologies as adults will find it hard to change, as they feel such anger. So I think you are correct in your suggestion the established Right will want concrete expressions of their beliefs.

      I do believe many” hide in plain sight”… we need to be watching.

      Apps and AI are useful but can steer the young towards sites online.
      • Sabine 12.1.1

        27 March 2019 at 10:52 pm

        He is hiding behind god, whom he found somewhere along the lines, and that god, sure as anything will give him the same believes. Man over women and child. white men over every one else. god above all and that is always so convenient innit, cause god ain’t here and he ain’t gonna come to help either.

        so yeah, they are still here, he is just ‘retired’ now, and they call themselves now ‘identity evropa’ or some other fancy shit.
        • patricia bremner 12.1.1.1

          27 March 2019 at 11:40 pm

          Thanks Sabine. that led to some research. Evropa, something new to me.
    • Stuart Munro. 12.2

      27 March 2019 at 8:01 pm

      That’s rather good.

      I’d be inclined to add something about social roles that is gender but not race based – within living memory a great deal of work was partly physical, so that size and strength favoured males. This is less true than it was. And there is the thing about socially sanctioned violence; war, policing, and informal policing were once roles that men found fell within their sphere of responsibilities, and men are still brought up and culturally reinforced with those expectations.

      I’m not certain what adaptations an enlightened society would make to roles and the culture that defines them, but I’m fairly sure it wouldn’t just lazily abandon everything to the crude accumulatory processes of unregulated markets.
    • left_forward 12.3

      28 March 2019 at 7:05 am

      After reading this, I contemplated one of the solutions many wise Maori elders advocate, and that is a re-education / re-focus for Maori men and women on tikanga Maori (and Te Reo). Roles for men and women are delineated in Te Ao Maori, there is a place for each gender to contribute, and mihi and acknowledgements of the person for who they are (their mana) is such a centrally important activity in powhiri, hui, whakatau, mihimihi, manaakitanga, waiata, tangi, whaikorero, hariru, etc.

      For Pakeha, there is so much value to be gained in understanding and adopting these ancient Nui Tireni traditions into our own lives.

      In a modern western world, focus is so easily lost. Even though we have often heard critique of gender roles in both Maori and Muslim rituals, I think that we should be developing a deeper sense of appreciation.

      For me, your article is much appreciated Maggie.

      [P.S. if I knew how to do this on my device, I would have used macrons]
13. adam 13

    27 March 2019 at 4:14 pm

    WOW, just wow – what a mess this age is.

    And what a age to be an elite.

    As a elite, you get a free pass for everything. Free pass for backing an ideology which has created the mess. You get a free pass form any mass shootings which you helped create. You get cover by the managerial class who throw out distractions faster than winnie can poo. Untouchable.

    Wholesale wreckage and failure on their part, and we all effectively start going squirrel.

    MInd you, why hold the elites to account, why hold to account their complete and utter failure. No need is there, we cross the tipping point environmentally in just under two years.

    May as well keep giving the elites their free pass, it’s the culture now. And it’s not like they don’t know they’re failures, but good on posts like this trying to make them feel good for a few moments.
14. Wayne 14

    27 March 2019 at 6:16 pm

    Not a fair heading to this item. It effectively conflates neo nazi extremists with everyone who has conservative views.
    • joe90 14.1

      27 March 2019 at 6:21 pm

      TBF, conservatives seem to be doing a mighty fine job of conflating themselves with the old fashioned nazi extremists.

      https://twitter.com/SollenbergerRC/status/1110578122569773056
      • WeTheBleeple 14.1.1

        28 March 2019 at 8:32 am

        To be fair, I think I’ve amply demonstrated just how annoying Autistic people can be.

        /sarc
      • Macro 14.1.2

        28 March 2019 at 11:35 am

        Trump’s last five trips to Mar-a-Lago would cover the proposed Special Olympics cuts. Trump’s trips to his private club in Florida cost taxpayers about $3.4 million.
        https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/27/five-trump-trips-mar-a-lago-would-cover-betsy-devoss-proposed-special-olympics-cuts/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.7633a77301c4
    • Blazer 14.2

      27 March 2019 at 6:24 pm

      its only fair Wayne..after all anyone who has progressive views is a ..COMMUNIST!
    • Pat 14.3

      27 March 2019 at 6:45 pm

      Worry not Wayne…the silly season has started early this year
    • KJT 14.4

      27 March 2019 at 9:00 pm

      Don’t worry Wayne.

      We know you are a radical.

      Neo-liberal!
    • Sabine 14.5

      27 March 2019 at 10:54 pm

      define conservative.

      and maybe you should tell your conservative friends to lay of the ‘these people are useless’, or ‘damn near hopeless’ as spoken by the double dipper from dipton and the federated farmer dude.

      maybe it is the conservatives that need to lay of the dehumanizing and belittling language even when that is all they have left to rouse the followers.
    • patricia bremner 14.6

      27 March 2019 at 11:47 pm

      Wayne, When do conservative views cross over??
    • left_forward 14.7

      28 March 2019 at 8:26 am

      Wayne, you are I think the smartest of the regular right wing commentators on TS. I find your contributions assist in refing my thinking on some issues (usually not in the way you may have hoped). I don’t agree with the fundamentals of the political philosophy that you have often articulated here. I have however some empathy for the old traditional conservatism of the right.

      In this situation that we find ourselves in, following the Christchurch tragedy, you surely acknowledge that the the current right wing of NZ politics is / has been philosophically connected to the extreme views of the Alt Right. We see it manifested for example in the neo-liberal policies of the last Government which have widened inequalities in our communities which in turn have caused a range of negative social consequences, one of which is the disposition of many middle class, under-educated, white males towards despair.

      The Conservative right that has also been so thoroughly infiltrated by neo-liberalism and Alt Right doctrines has encouraged an outlet for these feelings, and one consequence has been this tragedy.

      It is indeed an opportunity for the traditional Conservative right to wake up and repent. Build back some compassion into your philosophy Wayne. Surely this is a no-brainer?
      • I feel love 14.7.1

        28 March 2019 at 9:08 am

        No more reference to the “Standardinistas” Dr Wayne?
      • KJT 14.7.2

        28 March 2019 at 9:28 am

        The despair can equally include similar young brown males, and females.

        So many kids, who are outside of the university stream, in schools, have simply given up. Because they cannot see a future for themselves.

        It is only including all of them, in community which can save them.

        Otherwise, fertile recruiting grounds for any shade of hate group.
        • left_forward 14.7.2.1

          28 March 2019 at 11:17 am

          Yes of course KJT.
15. Pat 15

    27 March 2019 at 6:44 pm

    “So, my suggestion here is that National, ACT and NZ First will need to keep a close eye on membership applications, and in particular, unusually large sign ups in otherwise quiet branches”

    ???????
    • patricia bremner 15.1

      27 March 2019 at 11:51 pm

      Pat, or suspiciously large donations from supposed” NZ groups.
      • KJT 15.1.1

        28 March 2019 at 6:55 am

        As opposed to donations from oversea regimes like China and the USA?
        • patricia bremner 15.1.1.1

          28 March 2019 at 9:00 am

          Yes KJT, that’s why I said “supposed.” P.Hansen QLD group shows how seeking funding does go on at home and abroad. Australia has now enacted laws. Time for us to do the same.
          • KJT 15.1.1.1.1

            28 March 2019 at 9:19 am

            😊
16. peterlepaysan 16

    27 March 2019 at 10:07 pm

    This post has a stupid title.

    The right are never repentant.
    The right are always right.

    How does repentance get a mention?
    • te reo putake 16.1

      27 March 2019 at 10:33 pm

      I’m not big on sarc tags. I trust TS readers to get the drift anyway.
      • peterlepaysan 16.1.1

        28 March 2019 at 10:07 pm

        No evidence of sarcasm. Simple statement of fact.
        • te reo putake 16.1.1.1

          28 March 2019 at 10:41 pm

          No evidence you can comprehend even the easiest of concepts. Simple statement of fact.
    • patricia bremner 16.2

      27 March 2019 at 11:42 pm

      Peterlepaysan, Don’t critisize the authors you plonker.
      • peterlepaysan 16.2.1

        28 March 2019 at 10:12 pm

        I commented on the title. I did not criticise anyone. Simple statement of fact.
        • te reo putake 16.2.1.1

          28 March 2019 at 10:39 pm

          Who do you think wrote the title? You’re a goose. (Simple statement of fact)
17. Tiger Mountain 17

    28 March 2019 at 12:16 pm

    “supremo-cissies” as one FB poster described them, the rough, tough, master race types seem to turn on the tears when before the authorities or astute media…
18. greywarshark 18

    28 March 2019 at 12:21 pm

    Tradie’s Muslim comments get him axed from new job with Placemakers.
    Here is the link about the situation so people know what is being referred to.
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12216465

    The guy repeated stuff he’d read about UK Muslims and problems.
    He may have been referring to facts that he had researched. Or he may have just been repeating what he’d heard. He comes from Kaitaia and I have observed what I consider some structural, patronising racism up in the Top of the North. The guy likes UK speaker Yiannopoulos’ ‘opinion which created debates’.

    When questioned whether he was a right-wing radical, Knight-Wagener said he wasn’t sure what right or left wing was but he was a supporter of Milo Yiannopoulos – a far-right British speaker who was last week banned from Australia after he blamed the Christchurch terror attack on “extremist leftism and barbaric, alien religious cultures”.

    He said he liked Yiannopoulus due to his opinion which created debates. However, he said he had no problem with Muslims, didn’t condone the attack and said people shouldn’t be dying.

    He probably is just a guy with opinions and not much understanding of others lives or the problems of those in different situations to him. Some people are ready with opinions, and don’t think much for themselves.

    I put some information below with an example of how it is important not to shut down ALL talk, discussion, criticism or mention of known facts in an effort to limit bias and prejudice against immigrants and others of different races, cultures and religion. The results of a lack of equality over judgment of behaviour with a desire to be tolerant can go too far and end up hiding festering problems.

    I have referred here before to the outbreak of immorality and sex rings business exploiting young white girls in Rochdale, north England by young immigrant Pakistani men. I quote this crime situation just as an example of how important it is to treat people impartially, and expose bad situations to public scrutiny which will inevitably draw controversy and expressions of anger and excuses and protests of grievances. For further information use keywords – UK pimping Pakistanis – in Google will bring up a range of sources, opinion pieces and analysis about the problem.

    (Please note that I am not commenting on the sexual aspect in the example given. I am demonstrating how an aversion to making criticism or pointing fault of another race or group, can escalate to a point of serious harm to that group’s reputation and also the good patterns of behaviour, respect and health of society can be affected badly.)

    The results of resiling from facing the problem of questioning reluctant, irate leaders in denial so as to gain reliable information were I think, tragic. But investigation was necessary to enable the shutting down of a ring of pimps controlling teenage girls which had extended to blackmail and threats of violence to their parents over time. This example indicates how an open, fair society with an honest system of law and policing is necessary to prevent negative behaviour, in this case criminal, from spreading and becoming structural.

    The knowledge of different cultural dynamics is a feature here. The understanding of the guilt-shame response requires some thought and explanation. These are two helpful links that introduce westerner individuals to what might be a different way of viewing the world.
    http://www.zwemercenter.com/guide/honor-and-shame-9-keys/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt-Shame-Fear_spectrum_of_cultures

    The police were said to have been hampered because they did not want to be accused of racial-profiling and unfair treatment of ethnic groups. Then the knowledge of the growth of the sex business became a worry and increasing burden to the police management who knew there would blame and a backlash on them, and badly affect the whole police force when the situation became known to the wider public.
19. joe90 19

    28 March 2019 at 5:59 pm

    It’s almost like de-platforming works.

    Remember Baked Alaska, the alt-right memelord who got pepper-sprayed in Charlottesville and memorably cried out for milk? Now he tells me he’s ditching the alt-right, which he says has ruined his life.

    Alaska — real name Timothy Gionet — called me last week from Phoenix, where he’s living after watching his internet fameball career crash and burn along with the rest of his racist movement.

    “It’s been a pretty big disaster, to be honest,” Gionet said. “It’s been terrible for my employment opportunities, my reputation. It’s ruined lifelong friendships, it’s ruined relationships with family. It’s hurt my soul.”

    https://elink.thedailybeast.com/view/5bae99853f92a46ecbcf5b739rlr3.15s/0f27da77

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