The Sabin issue timeline

Written By: - Date published: 12:08 pm, February 3rd, 2015 - 277 comments
Categories: Abuse of power, Andrew Little, john key, journalism, Media, national, national/act government, news, same old national - Tags: , ,

John Key’s and National’s handling of the Sabin issue is textbook Crosby Textor stuff.  Keep repeating the same phrase, stick to the same line, appear helpful but give as little information out as possible.  His skill is that he sounds so up front and reassuring.  But when you compare what he has been saying with what has been established by the media the two things do not gel.

The central issues here are what did he know about Sabin’s difficulties and when.  In working this out what would help is an inside view of what activists in the National Party know.  Us political activists are terrible gossips and very sensitive to any sort of potentially damaging scandal.  So any news tends to spread like wildfire with petrol being sprayed on it.  And you can guarantee there would be a stampede of approaches to the leader with damaging news in an attempt to curry favour and to appear relevant.

Cameron Slater has helpfully commented on the issue for some time.  It is hard to imagine that he would not have informed his BFF John Key the minute he heard rumours about the issue.  In fact this is impossible to imagine.

It is helpful to remember that the story broke on December 21, and the allegation was that Sabin was facing some sort of police inquiry.  Then the Herald added this:

Nevertheless, the Herald understands senior Northland National Party figures have already been discussing potential candidates to replace him in the event of a byelection. Party president Peter Goodfellow told the Herald National’s hierarchy was unaware of any allegations, historical or recent, against Mr Sabin before this year’s general election. He refused to comment further.

Then the next week the SST followed with a further story that the police had been investigating the allegation since a month before the election.  The really damning comment which as far as I am aware no one has denied is this statement in the SST:

National Party officials were aware before September’s general election that Sabin was possibly being investigated by police. Key’s office was also, pre-election, informed of media inquiries about Sabin.

Which leader of which political party in which country would not have immediately asked the MP what the inquiry was about?  And who would not have made further investigations?

On December 21 Slater accurately predicted (all donotlink links) how the matter would finish:

The story itself, which National have sat on for weeks, is almost too horrible for words, and there is little doubt that there will be a by-election in Northland. This is the problem you get when you have an ethically challenged party hierarchy.

On December 28, 2014 Slater suggested that Sabin had lied to the party.  Then on January 21, 2015 he said prophetically:

Key has accepted assurances that it will all be handled quietly.  But I’m not sure if that’s OK.

At some point this is going to get into the public, and Key will be standing there with a severe amount of backsplash over him for trying to keep everything quiet.

To prevent any damage to the National Party and Key personally, Sabin should stand down for ‘personal reasons’, and a by-election should be called for a new MP for Northland.

Let’s get this over with now on our own terms before it gets forced on the National Party at a time that’s convenient to Labour and/or the Media to throw the spanner in.

He said this four days ago:

What astonishes me is that National did almost nothing about this issue for months…despite knowing about it, all the way to the top.

They just let Mike Sabin blow smoke up their arses despite plenty of concern outside of the party.

When full details of what has transpired are revealed then there are going to be some serious questions asked of the leadership.

And in a damning revelation this morning Andrew Little confirmed that his office informed Key’s office of the allegation that an MP had been investigated by the police in late November 2014.  Three days ago Key had refused to say when he learned of Sabin’s problems.  Then yesterday he said that it was in early December.  Key’s statement is the absolute latest date that could be proved at this stage.  And again if I was chief of staff and had been approached by the opposition chief of staff with serious allegations about one of my party’s MPs the first thing that I would do is immediately contact the leader and tell him of the allegation.  Key’s sanguine approach does not make sense.

Slater must be really bugging National right now.  Today he has said this about Key’s claim that Sabin was in the running to be appointed as a minister and the news was a shock:

The issue didn’t come as a shock. That is pure unadulterated bullshit. But almost appointed a minister?

WHAT. THE. HELL?

He has just, with that one statement bled away a considerable amount of caucus support.

I mean really? Is he actually serious in thinking that Mike Sabin should go on the list to be a minister ahead of Scott Simpson, or the reinstatement of Judith Collins, or one of his whips like Tim MacIndoe or Jami-lee Ross, or up and comers like Mark Mitchell and Alfred Ngaro?

Really?

Mike Sabin was in the line ahead of them?

I’d even put new MPs Chris Bishop, Todd Muller and Sarah Dowie ahead of a fool like Mike Sabin who has had discipline issues since two Christmases ago.

Key has lost his mojo and he needs to get it back bloody fast. The mutterings in caucus can be heard here in Auckland.

John Key is going to have to lift his game or he is going to be in serious trouble.

It is unusual for a Standard post to quote Slater so heavily.  But these are unusual times.

So is National that disorganised that the leader is not told potentially damning information about one of his MPs until recently.  Or is this evidence of a cynical yet hamfisted attempt to try and minimise damage to Brand Key and Brand National?

Update:  The NBR article referred to yesterday is now not still behind the paywall although the covering article contains this passage: (corrected):

NBR understands the PM was first made aware of the assault complaint in April last year, months before the September 20 ballot – and that the National Party knew before the 2011 election.

The Northland MP resigned on Friday, citing personal reasons.

Mr Key said this morning he knew about Mr Sabin’s resignation “a day or two prior”.

Asked, “Can we absolutely say you knew nothing about this before the election?” the PM replied “No … I was aware of the personal family matters for about the last week of Parliament last year [Dec 8 – 12]. So that’s the timeframe.”

Update:  Presuming the comments are genuine two former right wing MPs have also expressed puzzlement at this over at Kiwiblog.

David Garret:

Everyone knows where I stand politically…but things just don’t add up in this matter. For a start, it is standard practice for the police to notify party leaders when any of that leaders MP’s are under investigation – or even if they have themselves made a complaint to the police. My understanding is that the investigation into Sabin began many months before the last election – April 2014 is one suggestion – which means that all things being equal, Key would have been informed shortly after the investigation began, and certainly well before the election.

Secondly, the allegations against Sabin are not simply ones of “assault”. Suffice it to say that I understand the charges are much more serious than that, and that the complainants would have automatic permanent name suppression. All of which makes it more and more curious that Key didn’t know very soon after the investigation into Sabin began, if all of that is indeed the case.

All of the above begs a number of questions, among them “did Sabin get special treatment from the police, at least in the early stages?” I don’t know the answer to that question and a number of others. What I do know from the limited information I have is that this thing has the capacity to destroy this government. I would not like to be in Key’s position at the first question time of the year.

And Rodney Hide:

I understand from the media that there had been a police investigation. I would have thought the police would tell the Prime Minister immediately on receiving the complaint.

The date of the complaint and on what date the Police told the PM are at issue I would have thought.

I am aware that Garret comments regularly at Kiwiblog and it appears to be him.  I have not seen Hide comment before.

Update: and occasional Standard Commenter Matthew Hooton casts doubt on the suggestion that Police would not tell the Government about the investigation:

“ONE News political reporter Katie Bradford says police are not expected to inform the Prime Minister of every investigation.”

That is true. But the convention, going back as long as I have followed politics, is that the police alert the Beehive on a confidential basis when a politically sensitive investigation is underway. The Beehive can’t do anything with this information, of course, except be aware of it, but the police make the courtesy call. It is difficult to believe that at least someone in the Beehive wasn’t alerted in August when the investigation began. If the police didn’t, then the Beehive has every right to be furious with them.

277 comments on “The Sabin issue timeline”

  1. shorts 1

    by tomorrow Sabin will be a bit player in this what did the PM say, when did he know it and just where is his office routine

  2. freedom 2

    Key is either drifting in his dinghy or has his hand on the tiller.
    There is no third option

    He will have to blame everyone else and and pray CT can furnish a tow-line,
    or admit fault and try to swim for shore.

    Guess it all depends which predators are between him and the shore.

    • rawshark-yeshe 2.1

      as in killer whales, rawsharks and sexual ?

    • Kevin 2.2

      and who cares???

      • freedom 2.2.1

        It may seem odd to you but quite a few people do care about the integrity of their Government’s actions. Obviously you do not.

        This raises the question, if politics so disinterests you, why would you go to all the trouble of commenting on a political blog ?

      • fisiani 2.2.2

        Exactly who cares. An MP has resigned and someone will take his place March 28th. Yet another pathetic attempt to discredit Honest John.

        • mickysavage 2.2.2.1

          You are such a crack up Fisi. Tell me what do you think about Garrett’s and Hide’s comments?

        • Tom Jackson 2.2.2.2

          So it’s of no concern to you that senior members of the government have known for nearly a year and before an election, that one of their candidates was under investigation for behaviour, by all accounts I’ve seen, that almost all New Zealanders would regard as bestial.

        • tricledrown 2.2.2.3

          Their is a bad smell around LiarKey a stink of corruption he can’t shake off something fishy going on.

        • North 2.2.2.4

          Oh suddenly the dismissive “who cares” from the knuckle dragging Kevin @ 2.2 and the double knuckle dragging Fizzy Anus @ 2.2.2. As to the seriousness of “assault” allegation/s that is.

          That’s a bit of a ‘cap-er’ isn’t it boys ? Such is the faith obviously of those who worship at the temple of TheGodKey. Ekshully you make me “-ill”.

          This whole biz has been swirling around The North for some while now.

          There are two prescient mentions from Citizen Garrett’s reported comments above –

          “Suffice it to say that I understand the charges are much more serious than that, and that the complainants would have automatic permanent name suppression.” and –

          “……did Sabin get special treatment from the police, at least in the early stages?”

          Either (1) TheGodKey knew months ago (as Little says how could he not ?), or (2) the Prime Minister’s Office houses (with TheGodKey’s initial and enduring approval – obviously could not be but) a long established sub-office called ‘The Plausible Deniability Unit’. The role of that unit being to keep from the PM all ‘matters’ which might not suit the two-track approach, viz. the PM ‘always’ knew nothing of the foulness…….and my, “how neat it’d be to have a beer with PM John ……”

          If it’s (1)……well, obviously, the man is a black liar with no respect for the fiduciary aspect of his role as PM. And a taste for deep corruption.

          If it’s (2)……our governance rests with a faceless ‘committee’ of grey men, answerable only to “Honest John”, as Fizzy Anus so fizziliy describes him. For the sole purpose of holding on to power, whatever the weather.

          Interesting that SlaterPorn seems to have turned. And as hard as I find it to believe there must still be people in the National Party who feel -ill at their leader’s cap-ers to retain power at any cost. Especially the ones whom SlaterPorn identifies as down the list behind Sabin.

          Will Nicky Hager soon be working on another manuscript sourced from within the National Party ?

          Really ?

        • stever 2.2.2.5

          Leaving honesty aside…

          John Key appointed an MP, when (he now admits) he knew the MP was in trouble with the Police, to chair a committee that was to do with overview of the Police.

          Now, how can that be defended?

          EDIT: I see Dimpost beat me to this sort of question 🙂

          • rawshark-yeshe 2.2.2.5.1

            perfect question, and actually one that can be asked in the house under ministerial responsibility. and even IF key didn’t know til first of December (wottajokey) why didn’t he stand sabin down then ??

            this has WTF written all over it for even the most bored and sleepy sheeples, doesn’t it ?

  3. tracey 3

    interesting list from slater

    “…on the list to be a minister ahead of Scott Simpson, or the reinstatement of Judith Collins, or one of his whips like Tim MacIndoe or Jami-lee Ross, or up and comers like Mark Mitchell and Alfred Ngaro?”

    who will be thrown under tbe bus for letting honest ordinary john down for not tellinh him under no surprises? problem for key running this line again is last time he had 2 portfolios now he only has one so more time to know what is going on.

  4. Skinny 4

    This is all too hard to swallow, any Electorate Executive committee of a political party (including a banana republic) would inform national office of any potential issue that would result in a forced resignation, especially so close after a general election. Knowing the cost to the taxpayer being around 1 million dollars.

    What action is being taken against the Northland branch?

    • tracey 4.1

      to believe this you have to believe at some point someone said “whatever you do dont tell honest john” and everyone since said “yeah good idea”

  5. Northsider 5

    On TV3 news this morning Key blandly regerred to Sabin’s siutation as “family matters” as if it was a divorce or a troublsome child!

    • tricledrown 5.1

      OAB Shonkey actually answered Rawden Christie’s loaded question “you didn’t know anything about the Sabin situation before the election ”
      Keys answer was No,which if you look at your link acshully means yes !

      • freedom 5.1.1

        that’s crazy talk tricldrown, you know words mean whatever John Key means them to mean when he means for them to mean things, know what I mean 😉

    • upnorth 5.2

      Same as on National Radio “Family matters” is the CT line, question is why? Why, if key has nothing to hide is he still trying to defend and spin the indefensible? Why try to minimise the appalling acts?

      What is John Key trying to hide and why is he not feeding “Mad” Mike to the wolves?

      This whole issue is odd on so many levels.

      BTW I’m a far north local and Mad Mikes antics are hardly news. The gossip has been about since at least last Christmas. John Carter and the party officials could not have been oblivious to it, no way.

      “Family matters” is so euphemistic. Real kiwi’s don’t trivialise this stuff, we are deeply shocked, offended, outraged and angered by it.

  6. One Anonymous Bloke 6

    The NBR article is no longer pay-walled…

    NBR understands the PM was first made aware of the assault complaint in April last year, months before the September 20 ballot – and that the National Party knew before the 2011 election.

    [Ta have added – MS]

    • freedom 6.1

      OAB, The article you have linked to is the same article that was open yesterday,
      The pay-wall article (from yesterday’s link) is still locked.

      To MS- I just double checked against my browser history – the article you are saying is out from the paywall is the same article that was open yesterday, might want to update the update guys by removing the update 🙂

      • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1.1

        😳 my bad

        • freedom 6.1.1.1

          MS says all fixed now 🙂

          • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 6.1.1.1.1

            Great.

            NBR has used the correct word to cover all the squirming and fudging that the dolt is capable of.

            It doesn’t matter who told the PM.

            The point is that “the PM was first made aware of the assault complaint in April last year”.

            All this time and after more was being revealed, but then the PM went on to let the guy run for office again and, even worse, appointed the guy to chair the Law and Order Select Committee!
            Jizz!!

    • Clemgeopin 6.2

      Before 2011?…four years ago and Key didn’t know?
      Is the honourable PM trying to fool and lie to us all? It is either that or NBR is lying and Key should take them to court ! One of them is a liar for sure! Who would do you bet on?

    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 6.3

      2011!
      Posed a question: why?
      Got a cryptic reply from my well-connected friend: follow the money
      I presume that suggests looking into political and campaign funding/donations??

      • rawshark-yeshe 6.3.1

        for 2011 ? am trying to keep up but cryptic it is !!

        • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 6.3.1.1

          To clarify, the first line was echoing Clemgeopin and also referring to the time that has passed that the NBR noted: “that the National Party knew before the 2011 election“.

          On net balance, it was perhaps worth more to keep the guy in than throw him out?

          • Alpha 6.3.1.1.1

            buggers spinning tall yarns

            ‘Key said National encouraged its MPs to come forward if they had any issues, as the party was often able to offer support.

            Sabin and Key have not spoken about it and the prime minister said there was no need to.

            “It’s not a matter for me to hear his side of the story,” he said.

            Sabin has been was offered support from his friend, Rodney MP Mark Mitchell. Both are former police officers.

            Mitchell said Sabin had acted correctly in resigning at the time that he did.

            “I think he did everything just right … I think he did the right thing,” he said.

            Mitchell refused to say what the pair had talked about.

            National Party president Peter Goodfellow said today that he knew of Sabin’s issue in the month leading up to Christmas, but he did not make a note of when he was told. and could not recall.

            He did not discuss the matter with Eagleson, because he knew Key’s chief of staff was already aware of the matter’
            link

            http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/65711498/pm-john-key-says-labour-tip-off-over-mike-sabin-was-in-december-last-year

            • Treetop 6.3.1.1.1.1

              Mitchell did get the heads up from Sabin, they talk daily. Mitchell was in the police for 13 years and did security work in Iraq. Hager has made mention of a connection with Lusk ,Mitchell and Slater to do with the Rodney seat.

              en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Mitchell_(politician)
              (not sure why link is a dud)

      • freedom 6.3.2

        there was all that talk about large sums being paid to departing MPs last year
        – hush money?

  7. esoteric pineapples 7

    “The story itself …. is almost too horrible for words” – It’s good to do lots of quoting of Slater in this case as he seems to know a lot about it.

    I just don’t know when the New Zealand public is going care about any of this. It’s the sort of thing that goes over their head.

    • rawshark-yeshe 7.1

      I guess that’s what Christian heritage Party leader Graeme Capill hoped for in the ‘public caring’ stakes ? But the public did care and cared enormously.

      Interestingly, Capill also worked for Police including being a senior prosecutor for them.

      Some things are not to be forgiven as Key will discover along with the pathetic man Sabin.

      • rawshark-yeshe 7.1.1

        Correction of spelling to Graham Capill, and thisfrom the sentencing judge, from Sunday News via wiki:

        ” Capill had also lied to deter other girls from complaining, and there was also a suggestion he had used his knowledge of the law as a police prosecutor to avoid the accusation of rape, Judge Kerr said.”

    • vto 7.2

      From reading between all of the lines it is clear the type of incident which is being investigated….. very unsavoury and far from a dust-up assault / punch up between two grown men, or some such similar…

      and that type of incident by this type of person does not fly over peoples heads – as rawsharkyeshe points out above

      • rawshark-yeshe 7.2.1

        and as Key keeps repeating, “it’s his family and personal matters”.

        • David H 7.2.1.1

          His answers in the house to the multitudes of questions he will face will be interesting for A: Sticking to his line. Or, B: Try to explain away a month of Porkies! Either way it’s gonna be an interesting week in the house.

  8. rawshark-yeshe 8

    I read yesterday that Key, being questioned about Sabin,had inadvertently linked two items together that had previously not been linked. One of them was the court hearing subject to extreme secrecy and details suppression.

    Has Key thus broken the suppression order ?

  9. Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 9

    So is National that disorganised

    Nahh, not disorganised at all. On the contrary, very tightly and carefully controlled and managed, especially regarding the PM’s Office, comms & public relations.

  10. As a side issue, I wonder if Slater will still think so highly of Mark Mitchell now that he’s come out in support of Sabin?
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/65711498/pm-john-key-says-labour-tip-off-over-mike-sabin-was-in-december-last-year – warning: obnoxiously loud auto-playing video.

  11. wyndham 11

    Now Key says this ( at 12.22 today) :

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/65711498/pm-john-key-says-labour-tip-off-over-mike-sabin-was-in-december-last-year

    Has Andrew cocked up or is Key digging himself a deeper hole ?

    • freedom 11.1

      Labour is pretty clear as they said they did not have their records with them at the time of commenting so if the date was off by a few days it is neither here nor there really because the Prime Minister has had to change his story, again, and will now need to stick to that date of December 1.

      Not sure if he’s digging a hole, or a tunnel.

      • mickysavage 11.1.1

        Andrew Little has been exemplary. It is clear he knew about the issue in November. He then made no political gain from it whatsoever, did not discuss it publicly and even has his office warn Key’s office about it. Talk about exemplary behaviour.

    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 11.2

      The reality is that Key knew about it long before news of it got out to the Labour cab, let alone the newly selected Labour leader.

      • Macro 11.2.1

        Yes! Of course Key new about it – unless we are to go down the track of a Godwin – i.e. keeping unpleasant news from the Mein Fuhrer, (and if that truly was the case – then something truly is rotten in the “State of New Zealand”).

  12. Tom Gould 12

    Fascinating watching the Tory media chooks scramble to protect their beloved John-boy and his cronies. They love him so.

    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 12.1

      I hear this one is big and, you didn’t hear this from me but, there could be a distracting dump by Thu arvo or Fri.

      • rawshark-yeshe 12.1.1

        you are more fun than sudoku and certainly brain excercising 😀

        more clues ?

        by ‘this one is big’ do you mean the Sabin/Key matters, or is the upcoming dump the ‘big one’ ?

        (shouldn’t, but I have to ask if the dump is the shit from Key’s brain, as elucidated by Slater this morning ?)

        • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 12.1.1.1

          Should say not looking now like Fri because of Waitangi Day.

      • Neil 12.1.2

        Could it be something from Keys top draw in his desk containing dirt on opposition MPs?

  13. One Anonymous Bloke 13

    From what Garret has to say, Little’s alleged musings on the presumption of innocence must have gone down like the proverbial cold cup in certain quarters, perhaps for more personal reasons than most.

  14. rawshark-yeshe 14

    “What I do know from the limited information I have is that this thing has the capacity to destroy this government. I would not like to be in Key’s position at the first question time of the year.”

    MS .. thanks for the update .. this is a deeply telling quote from Garret.

    • mickysavage 14.1

      Ta. First time I have ever quoted Garret in a post!

      • Northsider 14.1.1

        Above and beyond the call of duty.

        Have a very hot and long shower when you get home. Use Protex: an anti-bacterial soap. Wash all the clothes you were wearing, at the time you wrote the post, in napisan.

        Then drink heaps.

        • mickysavage 14.1.1.1

          Will do!

          I take it craft beer is best?

          • Northsider 14.1.1.1.1

            A shite chemical beer like Steinlager first to strip any residue away. Then move onto the Craft Beers.

            • mickysavage 14.1.1.1.1.1

              🙂

            • ghostwhowalksnz 14.1.1.1.1.2

              Please. spare us the contrived ‘handmade’ label and how it makes you a superior person to the common herd.
              beer is made in the same stainless steel with exactly the same materials whether it gazillion gallons or 500 !

      • rawshark-yeshe 14.1.2

        and I needed to quote Slater today for the first time — interesting times 😀

      • Tracey 14.1.3

        and the irony of a guy who kept his own offending from the electorate saying this is not lost. on me at least.

  15. Northsider 15

    In a radio or TV inteview yesterday Key was asked why he did not stand Sabin down from the Chair of the Law and Order Committe when he became aware that Sabin was under Police Investigation.

    He said that Helen Clark did not stand herself down when she was associated with a Police Investigation. I assume he was referring to the breaking of the speed limit in the south island while in the back of a police car.

    Key puts a very serious [deleted] case in the same bracket as breaking the speed limit? He also sees the very serious [deleted] as a “family and personal matter”. Key has lost the plot.

    [lprent: As far as I am aware the details of the case are not public. Provide a link if they are.]

  16. esoteric pineapples 16

    Interesting theory emerging that the Eleanor Catton furore was orchestrated to take the public’s attention away from the Sabin case.

  17. BLiP 17

    It would seem that John Key is drawing a distinction between “family and personal matters” – the apparent reason why Sabin resigned – and “a police investigation”. By separating the two out, John Key can obfuscate about when or if he heard about what. Presumably, when the truth about when he knew of the police investigation is finally revealed, and if Mike Sabin is ever charged, John Key can say he was unable to talk about anything in relation to the police investigation due to some sort of court order.

    • Lanthanide 17.1

      “John Key can say he was unable to talk about anything in relation to the police investigation due to some sort of court order.”

      Yes, but at the very least that police investigation could have been used as grounds for not standing Sabin at the 2014 election, or not appointing him as chairperson for the Law and Order select committee.

      Those are the two substantive errors of judgement Key / National had made, and knowledge of the criminal investigation prior to either occurring is sufficient to be a scandal; saying he was under some sort of court order not to discuss the matter doesn’t absolve of responsibility in those cases.

      • freedom 17.1.1

        and if the rumours are true, and the events were known prior to the 2011 Election?

        • Sacha 17.1.1.1

          headline: ‘right-wing political party lacks ethics’

          • freedom 17.1.1.1.1

            followed by twenty inches of ‘left wing parties knew – so we’ll blame them’

        • Robert Atack 17.1.1.2

          I keep seeing 2011? How long does it take the police to investigate a case?
          If this thing has been going on for over 3 years, it must be more than say a bit of credit card fraud ?????
          I haven’t a clue, 100% speculating, and it must be bigger than a parking ticket?
          Why don’t you run a poll
          What sort of criminal act takes more than 3 years to investigate?

          • Lanthanide 17.1.1.2.1

            TV 1 News tonight said that the police started their investigations in August. They also said it’s standard practice to contact the leader of a political party when an investigation into an MP begins.

            So the whole “they knew in 2011 thing” seems a bit dubious to me; and it seems that the police certainly haven’t known about it that long, even if others have.

          • Wensleydale 17.1.1.2.2

            It depends who you’re investigating.

            If the suspect is a left-wing investigative journalist, then you chuck an entire paddy wagon of coppers at them, and they spend the best part of a day rummaging through your personal possessions in the hope of finding something they can use to crucify you.

            If the suspect is a conservative politician and an ex-cop to boot, the long arm of the law can procrastinate as long as it likes, while the slavering attack dogs of talk-back radio, the MSM and the blogosphere parrot the line, “Nothing to see here… move along. And isn’t that Eleanor Catton an uppity cow?!”

            To paraphrase Blam Blam Blam, “There is no corruption in New Zealand…”

    • Tracey 17.2

      surely when the police told the pm under no surprises is oia territory. no need for any other detail just the date?

      • Jackal 17.2.1

        Here’s the rule concerning no surprises:

        In their relationship with Ministers, officials should be guided by a “no surprises” principle. They should inform Ministers promptly of matters of significance within their portfolio responsibilities, particularly where these matters may be controversial or may become the subject of public debate.

        Clearly the Police were obliged to inform the Minister of Police as soon as a complaint against Mike Sabin was lodged. Being that the case against Sabin is very serious, the responsible Minister and the Police would also be obliged to inform the Prime Minister. In my opinion, this would have all happened within a couple of days of the complaint being made.

        These matters would be subject to an OIA request because they relate to issues being dealt with by Ministers of the crown in their official duties. However it would likely be declined because a date is a detail of a case that likely has a blanket suppression order. The National party is relying on the suppression never being lifted, so they can basically say whatever they like.

        National and John Key appear to have kept quiet about the complaint against Mike Sabin and allowed him to stand for the 2014 general election in the hope that they could cover it all up afterwards. Considering the other cases of National interfering with active police investigations, that doesn’t give me much hope that the victim in all of this will be treated fairly.

        • Treetop 17.2.1.1

          My heart really goes out to the alleged survivor. Their case is high profile and complicated. There is an offender, a police investigation, the media appear to be holding back, an alleged trial where a guilty plea was given and that an MP was off the PMs radar. I just hope that the survivor has enough support.

          Sexual abuse has to be taken seriously by the government and the police. Regardless of when it occurred and who the allegation is being made against.

          Key would be able to access anything on Sabin e.g. phone calls between Sabin and Mitchell. For all I know Fletcher may be resigning because of being asked to spy on MPs.

    • Murray Rawshark 17.3

      I don’t understand how there could have been a court order before Sabin appeared in court, and as far as we have been informed, he hasn’t yet. This is another lie from FJK.

  18. Northsider 18

    Key interviewed by Rawdon Christie

    Christie: We can absolutely say you knew nothing about this before the election?
    Key: No.
    Christie: The byelection – any more details?

    Christie lets Key off with that!! Was Key saying

    ” No, I knew nothing”

    or

    “No, I cannot confirm that I knew nothing”

    Is Christie a journalist? Why can’t he ask a clear question?

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/sabin-key-says-he-knew-nothing-election-168072

    • Paul 18.1

      Christie is not a journalist.

      • Alpha 18.1.1

        [Christie: We can absolutely say you knew nothing about this before the election?

        Key: No]

        both are dumb arses.

        -key gave a dumb arse answer.
        -christie did not follow on this dumb arse answer.
        -one dumb arse matched the other dumb arse.
        -2 foolish dumb arses.

        • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 18.1.1.1

          Christie did a good job for his bosses (in many senses of the word), not his listeners nor the NZ public.

    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 18.2

      Can be taken as: No, I can’t absolutely say I knew nothing.
      LOL!

  19. Skinny 19

    It would be interesting to read a copy of the National Party’s rules and standing orders relating to conduct from an MP/candidate who may bring the party into disrepute. Also the branch process for dealing with misconduct like a police investigation.

    Also the very murky details of the apparent inaction from the Police to contact the Leader of the National Party to make him aware one of his MP’s was under investigation.

    Out of respect for those concerned, in my opinion going into details that are suppressed is hardly cricket. Referring to some Facebook posts I’ve read.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 19.1

      You mean these rules or standing orders?

      5. In seeking to fulfil our organisational purpose, the National Party shall focus its activities on the following key operational objectives:
      (a) Maximise membership of the National Party amongst all New Zealanders with similar political views.
      (b) Maximise the value of membership, by ensuring members wherever possible have the opportunity to participate in policy generation, candidate selection and other Party activities. 🙄
      (c) Maximise moneys raised to campaign for the Party and to fund its effective operation.

      My 🙄

  20. joe90 20

    oops

    Laura McQuillan ‏@mcquillanatorz 27m27 minutes ago

    Labour’s released phone records showing Matt McCarten called Wayne Eagleson about Sabin on November 26

    https://twitter.com/mcquillanatorz/status/562450195611262976

    edit:


    Laura McQuillan ‏@mcquillanatorz

    26/11/14: McCarten called Eagleson at 11.20am, left a voicemail. Eagleson called back at 11.38am – they had a 3min 49 second conversation.

    https://twitter.com/mcquillanatorz/status/562451935190462464

      • One Anonymous Bloke 20.1.1

        According to the NBR, Key knew in April last year.

        Forget December. Key knew in April. The National Party knew before the 2011 election.

        They let him introduce all those private members’ bills in the meantime.

        Fuckers.

      • Anne 20.1.2

        Andrew Little also says:

        He does not accept the Prime Minister’s word that he did not know about the allegations until word was conveyed to his office.

        My bold.

        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11395985

        What’s the bet he has information to back the claim that he will reveal in parliament next week.

      • Atiawa 20.1.3

        Now Key is saying from Waitangi celebrations that he found out about Sabin a week earlier then previously declared. He wouldn’t know what day it is.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 20.1.3.1

          My memory tells me that Key was in the room during the alleged offending.

          Or am I suffering from Prime Ministerial memory syndrome?

          Who can tell these days?

    • freedom 20.2

      The Prime Minister can still stand behind his December 1st line in the sand.

      If he wants people to believe his Chief of Staff withheld this information for five days.

      • Tracey 20.2.1

        like sands through the hourglass these are the days of Key,s lies…

        • McFlock 20.2.1.1

          Sands through the hourglass?
          Nah.

          He denies there’s a smell.
          Then he remembers there’s a smell, but didn’t fart.
          Oh, wait, he might have farted, but it was just a little one.
          Ok, he forgot he made a big fart, but it didn’t go any further than that.
          Well, there, might be a little turtle poking out.
          Ok, it was actually a bit more than a turtle, but was completely contained.
          ekshully, a little bit got away from him, but there’s not more.
          He’s just been advised that it was a bit of a cable, really, but the issue has been resolved and left no byproduct anywhere.
          No, he didn’t just leave a massive dump in the middle of your living room.
          Look, it’s old news that he shat all over the coffee table, look at the cycleway.

  21. stever 21

    I can’t work out, given that it was obvious what a mess this would all make if they lied, why they didn’t just come clean when Sabin was first under investigation (or whatever it was).

    Sure it would be embarrassing for a while having to take flak because an MP was allegedly in trouble…but why lie and string it out into yet another chase of Key through a labyrinth of lies and back-pedalling?

    • Tracey 21.1

      they prolly think the complainant is making it all up…

      • Skinny 21.1.1

        Key backed his man against his better judgement anyone can see that. This prior and going into the election. No shame in that, he should just have admitted it. A fool for self inflicted punishment.

        Leading a Government through a third term is not easy just ask Helen. Personally I think Key will fold as more pressure mounts in the future.

      • Anne 21.1.2

        I agree with Tracey. As simple as that.

        Remember you’re dealing with people who are what I term as ‘modern day flat- earthers’. In the deep recesses of their mind they believe man is the dominant gender. They regard themselves as stronger and cleverer than their female counterparts. Key’s reaction to Eleanor Catton’s comments is a typical example.

        When it comes to the crunch they will always believe the man/men over the woman unless there is overwhelming evidence they can’t ignore. How many women have had personal experience of this attitude? How many of us were disbelieved when reporting personal criminal activity against us – be it sexual or some other form of intimidation. Countless numbers…

        • freedom 21.1.2.1

          Anne, I think this is more of a ‘they want all the power’ issue.

          No offence but at this time, in regards to the Sabin case, your entire second paragraph is full of unsupported supposition . We simply do not have enough facts to test your theory against. We do not even know the gender of the victim/s let alone the charges.

          • Anne 21.1.2.1.1

            Yes its supposition but its based on well known and documented evidence. While nothing is officially confirmed I grant you, but the gender of the complainant (at least) appears to have been widely circulated.

            • freedom 21.1.2.1.1.1

              I agree 100% and have more than enough personal experience from that of which you speak, to not only carry respect and grief in burdensome amounts but listen to that niggly little voice that says we all should be a bit cautious at this time when looking at threads to pull on.

            • weka 21.1.2.1.1.2

              I agree Anne, and I’ve been wondering if this is down to Key having such a distorted understanding or belief about certain kinds of assualt that it’s skewed his judgement (and agree, that would have to apply to his closest group as well). There are enough examples of poor judgement being shown in this area by Key.

              I’ll be glad when we can talk about this more openly.

        • Tracey 21.1.2.2

          Anne

          Keisha Castle Hughes

          Whereas P Jackson prolly has the PMs cell number.

          roastbusters
          murderer/paedophile escapee
          diplomat case
          “sorry to be a man” “tell them that down at the rugby club” (or words to that effect)
          liz Hurley
          (ever seen him at a silver ferns game?)

          his chosen profession was close to a woman free zone when he started in the 80s and is largely that way now.

          there is a pattern here. .. no wonder Nats struggle to attract female candidates which is why they say their female reps are low.

    • Jenny Kirk 21.2

      I can’t figure it out either, Stever. Especially when you think back and realise that Richard Worth was gone before lunchtime !

      Did Sabin have something of importance or of use to Key ? Otherwise, why all the shuffling around and pretending nothing was happening ?

      • idbkiwi 21.2.1

        Who knows? You’re possibly on the right track Jenny. Why have these allegations (allegedly) really been hanging around since 2011?

        The fact that they haven’t been dealt with adequately in this amount of time speaks of massive political incompetence or perhaps some sort of leverage that Sabin was able to employ, perhaps as simple as insisting on the rules of evidence, or as devious as threatening to go nuclear with other information. Maybe the copper has something on the Nats? Intriguing.

        Think back to 2011, and about the correct application of damage-control; the Mayhem on Moxham. Within weeks the episode became ignored by police, the papers backed off, the accused was spirited out of parliament and on to grander things. Everything was papered over and forgotten including the victim. This, despite the efforts of Rawshark who published conversations regarding the accusations in his “whaledump” pastebin.com revelations last year.

        Nothing more came of it despite the details being equally as salacious as the current episode. And as for the victim?………………………………who cares?

        That’s damage control.

      • Tracey 21.2.2

        it took a while to get rid of Worth. Remember he used diplomatic status on a business trip… and it took some time for the harassment to get rid too.

    • mickysavage 21.3

      [W]hy they didn’t just come clean when Sabin was first under investigation (or whatever it was).

      I think the answer is one month out from an election? With Dirty Politics swirling about?

      • Tracey 21.3.1

        the chance to further enhance key as firm leader with principles for doing the right thing even in a campaign? A pretty easy spin… unless you just dont think a bloke should go down on the word of a complainant who is probably just hysterical and vindictive?

    • Alpha z 21.4

      [‘but why lie and string it out into yet another chase of Key through a labyrinth of lies and back-pedalling?’—stever]

      It is good. let j key continue with lies and crap. more the better. then more people will begin to see into liar’s pants on fire and lol at the said liar’s l–o–n–g l–o–n–g growing nose tipper.

  22. Tracey 22

    and miss all those camera ops?…

  23. Tracey 23

    Who is being lined up to deliberately disrupt waitangi so the pm can come across as a hard done by ordinary bloke.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 23.1

      Me. I’m going to deliberately disrupt Waitangi by suggesting that everybody stays at least thirty paces away from the Pry Minster in case they get infected with selective memory syndrome.

      It will make great theatre, and Hazmat suits can always be made to measure.

  24. Northsider 24

    Sabin Case. Obvious question.

    How is Judith Collins trying to exploit it to her advantage?

    She has Cameron Slater doing his bit.

    What else do you suppose she is doing?

    • rawshark-yeshe 24.1

      breathing ?

    • Skinny 24.2

      Seeing her on tv3 news isn’t revenge sweet, and as I predicted Judy Doll is strutting around grinning like a Cheshire cat.

      Of course she is smitten after Sabin set his son on her in an attempt to undermine her so he could take the Justice Ministers roll.

      Adding it up I believe Key called the shots against Collins and Mike Sabin done the dirty work with the wink wink nudge nudge you’ll get it. The rest is history.

      Collin’s is as hard as nails and Key felt threatened and insecure. Well lookout Johnny boy Judy is back big time and she is going to roll ya.

    • Tracey 24.3

      if slater has text records showing he texted the rumour to key well before december then perhaps she is hoping it brings down the Pm OR slater witholds such evidence provided she is back in cabinet within 6 months.

  25. Chooky 25

    Martyn Bradbury thinks if Winston should stand in Northland…he might just pull it off!

    imo …worth a try…now where is Winnie?

    ‘Winston’s time to shine in Northland by-election’

    By Martyn Bradbury

    “It all depends on how willing the opposition parties are to being co-operative to take away National’s majority without needing United Future or the Maori Party.”….

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/02/02/winstons-time-to-shine-in-northland-by-election/

    • One Anonymous Bloke 25.1

      Nostradamus predicted that Bradbury will become the leader of NZ1st.

      • phillip ure 25.1.1

        it was in the 11th canto..from memory..

        ‘..and behold what shall hove into view..?

        ..but the mini-me of the pigs’-foot..

        ..you shall know him by his old-man jackets..

        ..and a roly-poly gait..

        ..and he shall become leader of the first..”

        ..(that’s how it goes..from memory..)

        • Chooky 25.1.1.1

          lol…Bradbury is a very creative thinker…but his relationship to Nostradamus and leading NZF is all in One Anonymous Bloke’s imagination…(and I thought AOB was such an empiricist and rationalist)

      • Tracey 25.1.2

        maybe a strategy the left could consider not standing for.

  26. freedom 26

    On this evening’s news the Prime Minister has admitted receiving information from Labour in November but has stuck to his story about not being told until December. What was interesting was the National Party President admitting there is a Police Investigation but no details were shared .

  27. ScottGN 27

    Quite good work form Andrew Little today I thought. The details around contact between McCarten and Eagleson are not that important really in the scheme of things (given that we’re told that National knew of this issue before the 2011 election) but they’ve got Key on the back foot and Little firmly in charge of the Opposition attack and that hasn’t always been the case with previous Opposition Leaders.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 27.1

      Anyone of credibility or substance who touches this before charges have been laid is begging for a (metaphorical, I’m sorry to say) beating.

      • ScottGN 27.1.1

        But Little isn’t going anywhere near the issues around Mr Sabin and any charges he might face, so far he’s concerning himself only with the PM’s notoriously dodgy memory.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 27.1.1.1

          What’s the hurry? Once the trial is over the Pry Minster’s corpse will still have a few twitches left in it.

          • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 27.1.1.1.1

            “What’s the hurry?”

            It should become clear soon who in this gang called ‘National’ have been in the background managing and trying to contain the Sabin saga.

            It was important to have Peter Goodfellow on record about this. When things unfold a bit more, people can start to see the truth.

            I am being very careful with comments 🙂

  28. rawshark-yeshe 28

    This is from a comment on Bomber’s blog re Winston standing up north .. anyone have a link for the RNZ programme? Thx …

    “Matthew Hooton said this morning on RNZ that National knew about issues with Sabin prior to the 2011 election, and even sent a delegation out to see him at the time, whatever these issues were.”

      • weka 28.1.1

        Hooton says that NBR said the prior to 2011 thing.

        Williams said that Labour party people in Sabin’s electorate tell him that National sent a delegation to Sabin well in advance of the 2014 election. Starts at 7 mins, Williams around 10mins.

      • freedom 28.1.2

        But Mr Hooton, you said you did not think the relevant issue now, is what happened in the past. On that I would like to remind you that there are victims behind all of this and they deserve to be in the forefront of your considerations, not cast aside like a dented coffee cup as you step towards the money machine.

        • Matthew Hooton 28.1.2.1

          The victims are certainly not politically relevant. To the contrary, they should be protected from the political aspects. Even Sabin is no longer politically relevant. The politically relevant matters are whether or not what the prime minister is telling the truth and/or whether or not his party and government have behaved competently and/or ethically.

          • freedom 28.1.2.1.1

            The victims are always relevant. That does not mean they are to be exposed or used for political capital in any way shape or form. Kept in mind, is all I was saying.

            Since you brought it up
            Do you believe the PM is acting competently ? Ethically?
            Do you believe the PM is telling the truth?

      • Skinny 28.1.3

        I am of the opinion the local National team were in a panic by mid to late October, when the gravity of the situation started to dawn on them. The logestics of pulling the incumbent MP and standing a fresh candidate would be bad enough. Then the questions would start. Why is the hot favourite being late scratched? Very quickly it’s blownout to be John Key knew about issues dating back to 2011 like you say.

        Looks like covering up ever since. They went to the polls knowing a by-election was more than likely on the cards. The whole saga is going to lead a trail of blood & guts from under the blues bus.

        • Sacha 28.1.3.1

          “The logistics of pulling the incumbent MP and standing a fresh candidate would be bad enough. Then the questions would start. Why is the hot favourite being late scratched?”

          like Tony Ryall, say?

        • Lanthanide 28.1.3.2

          Which is kind of funny, in hind-sight. If they’d withdrawn Sabin and not contested the seat, and assuming Labour won the seat (no idea if that’s likely?), then Andrew Little wouldn’t have gotten in on the list and NZ politics would be very different right now…

          • ghostwhowalksnz 28.1.3.2.1

            That something in your mouth is both feet

          • Skinny 28.1.3.2.2

            Yes it would be fair to say the fall out for National could well has changed the way plenty of the public voted. Collin Craig may have gained over 5% for example, or Peters may have become the King maker.

          • freedom 28.1.3.2.3

            I am missing something obvious I guess- but will ask anyway

            How does Little not get in on the List, if Labour had won another seat?

          • freedom 28.1.3.2.4

            Lanthanide, I do not see how you can discuss removing Sabin as a candidate late in the game and still assume all other results in the election would have remained the same.

            That seems nonsensical to me and I internally disregarded it when trying to understand your comment, which is why I asked what I was missing, but it seems I wasn’t missing anything after all.

            To put forward such a hypothetical that you could replace Sabin yet retain consistency in all other factors is ignoring the reality that if Sabin had been replaced just before the Election, then all these questions that have occupied people these past few days would have been asked, the result of which is the election would have (most likely) played out very differently.

            ==============
            -Thanks Tracey for the clarification of the (obvious yet absurd) scenario :),

            • Lanthanide 28.1.3.2.4.1

              My point is, if say 7 days before the election, National had withdrawn Sabin as a candidate and not stood anyone at all, then there’s a chance Labour could have won the seat. That’s all.

              There’s also a pretty good chance that a Conservatives or Act nominee could have won, although not sure Act stood anyone in that seat.

              I imagine Conservatives would have heavily campaigned on the “well you can’t get a National candidate any more, you might as well vote for us and get us into Parliament, since we’ll get 4%+ of the vote”.

              So really I think National actually would have be best served by having Sabin pull out close to the election – gain the conservatives, or should Labour have won the seat, knocked out Andrew Little.

        • Skinny 28.1.3.3

          “I am of the opinion the local National team were in a panic by mid to late October.”
          *Sorry that should read mid to late August prior to the September 20 election.

  29. freedom 29

    There is a new post up at [redacted].. but the mods might want to go check it before letting it get posted here. It definitely crosses into breaking the court orders territory.

    [Stephanie: Thanks, freedom, but in the interests of being as careful as possible about suppression order breaches I’ve edited your comment.]

    • joe90 29.1

      This, from the post you mention, would explain the sudden resignation

      [Sorry Joe as Freedom said we have to be careful with comments – MS]

    • It’s only a matter of time before this becomes water cooler discussion everywhere. I honestly have no idea how Key will spin it. Even if he only knew late last year, he should have taken action immediately.

      • rawshark-yeshe 29.2.1

        i hope [r0b: let’s not drag in irrelevant family members].

        • rawshark-yeshe 29.2.1.1

          just for clarity, this was about a member of Key’s family. surprised it’s moderated, but fine by me ! thx r0b

    • Anne 29.3

      Hell’s teeth!!!

      Recommend people go and read it.

    • Tracey 29.4

      wow. the lf folks are seriously angry.

      i note they dont mention the delay and lying about complaints being made in Roastbusters which i understand involved a policemans son.

      loise nicholas is actually a hero. The courage she has shown to go up against the price and police force is seriously under estimated by many nzers.

      • Murray Rawshark 29.4.1

        Not by me. She is an absolute hero and with thousands more of her and thousands fewer Keys and Sabins, we’d have a better country.

      • Treetop 29.4.2

        Not sure if this is mentioned else where on the TS. On 4 February TV3 6 pm news. Nicholas is to be the patron of a wing of new police recruits, (her brief is to inform all of the processes involved that are relevant to sexual assault/abuse). A superintendent of police who is in charge of the recruits also spoke.

        I would like to know who suggested the position. As well Nicholas has been involved with assisting detectives in sexual assault/abuse cases for about 4 years.

  30. Travis 30

    They gloated after the election how dismally “dirty politics” release turned out….assymetrically it has still achieved the desired result. Honest John dumps Collins in order to deflect the scrutiny, being the vile witch she is she pulls out the revenge card which will ultimately roll old honest john. And the best news she will still never, ever lead the Nats after her evil sneering last year which will never,ever be forgotton. Result all round I say. With daddy out of a job perhaps Max could join the army and do his bit for ‘the club’. Sure daddy didn’t mean other folks boys coming home in body bags did he??? Surely he would offer up we max for the sacrifice he expects everyone else to make for his little ‘club’.

  31. Neil 31

    If this Sabin saga had been made public before the election, it could’ve quite possibly changed the election result.
    Regardless of that, the issue still remains is of when Key knew & if he knew before the election, surely Key must face some serious questions of not only knowing before the election but most of all standing someone for election that was under investigation by the police for what sounds like a very serious matter, which is a serious matter in its self, maybe even enough to could be construed as election fraud.
    As much as I detest Slater, I think he is right on the money with his assessment of this.

    • rawshark-yeshe 31.1

      election fraud indeed. treasonous.

    • emergency mike 31.2

      “As much as I detest Slater, I think he is right on the money with his assessment of this.”

      Myself I’d wait until the facts come out before trusting anything at the sewer or his various proxy blogs.

  32. Redelusion 32

    People barring rabid lefties have no interest in this stuff and further more just turns them off ( they have a low opinion of politicians already) , so keep it coming and watch national polls rise and the collective left degrade the left fortunately never learn, long may it continue as one contributor mention above , who cares and zzzzzzzzzzzz

    • mickysavage 32.1

      You are delusional. Have a look at what Hide, Garrett, Slater and hootenanny have said today and then tell me the right do not care.

    • McFlock 32.2

      I know, right? Some folks even made it their new year’s resolution to not even read this blog. 🙄

      • framu 32.2.1

        cult members proving they have been brainwahsed – nothing new about that

        what is it with the key cultists and their total abdication of logic, maturity and standards?

  33. Penny Bright 33

    Yes – in my considered opinion – the latest post on this matter on [redacted] is political DYNAMITE – if it’s true…..

    Penny Bright

    [Stephanie: In the interests of being 100% safe on the matter of breaching suppression orders I’ve edited your comment.]

    • Neil 33.1

      It does push the boundaries & if its true, it will go off with a bigger bang than Hiroshima.

    • tricledrown 33.2

      Penny its time we had an independent police enquiry.
      The number of police involved in police corruption is phenominal.
      It is undermining the police force.
      Especially the numbers getting suppression.
      Also the numbers of present MP’s with convictions.

  34. Neil 34

    I wonder if Key will be suing nbr.co.nz for saying Key knew about the Sabin affair before the election?

  35. Clemgeopin 35

    “I’m worried he’s going to turn up to the Waitangi celebrations on the wrong day”

    LOL…and his brain fade may even cause him to end up in some strange foreign ground….like Hawaii 5’o golf course or something looking for Obama!

  36. Observer (Tokoroa) 36

    It would seem that Sabin has something on Key … for that is the only reason that the whole National Party lock stock and barrel, has kept Sabin in Parliament for month after month after month.

    The party is obviously protecting its very flawed leader.

    The whole of caucus has been rolling round in filth for the sake of their non moral Leader.

  37. tricledrown 37

    Key won’t be aloud anywhere near Obaaaamaaaa so he’ll have to settle for Romney!

    • Ron 37.1

      What the sheep? Would not be fair to the poor sheep to inflict Key on it

      Obaaaamaaaa so he’ll have to settle for Romney!

  38. rational thinker 38

    To think that piece of shit was in a position of authority makes me feel physically ill. If lauda’s article is correct will he go into a mainstream prison if convicted??

    To lauda. if you read these blogs much respect your way if your information is correct. I know laws are there for a reason but I believe your actions are noble and genuinely in the best interests of society, so to you I tip my hat

  39. emergency mike 39

    Does anyone have any info/opinions on lauda finem? The couple of times I’ve glanced at at it has seemed a rather strange place indeed. The only info there offered about itself is a street map of a piece of Amsterdam.

    • weka 39.1

      They need a decent editor for a start. Reading that article was painful and not for the content reasons.

      I skimmed through large bits of it (eg the Australian stuff), so maybe I’m missing something, but I thought they were connecting the dots that others before them have, and adding in the Sabin angle. I didn’t see any discussion of name/detail suppression and the protection of victims, which is a concern. I’d be looking out for how much is ego driven and to what extent that’s getting in the way, or making the situation unsafe. That’s not a criticism of lf itself, because I don’t know the site well enough, just a general concern about these kinds of endeavours.

      • emergency mike 39.1.1

        Agreed. I can’t see how they source the information about Sabin’s charges. There’s a lot of jumping to conclusions here. They could be right, but I’ve seen this style of writing before…

        • weka 39.1.1.1

          Maybe they knew someone who was in the court on the day. Also, it seems to be an open secret in the local community (before Christmas people here were hinting at what the police were investigating).

          I agree that the issue is they could be right but it’s hard to tell. I get why they would be protective of who they are too.

          • emergency mike 39.1.1.1.1

            “Maybe they knew someone who was in the court on the day.”

            Impressive detective work in a name suppression case.

            "Also, it seems to be an open secret in the local community (before Christmas people here were hinting at what the police were investigating)."

            But not specific details about the charges, so that's a moot point.

            "I get why they would be protective of who they are too."

            I didn't mean names but – a statement of intent? Anything?

            K. But are you aware of their views on The Standard, that they endorse and promote Pete George’s views of this site, that one of their authors got a permanent ban here for a single comment that the mod described as “one of the most tragic comments in the history of this blog,” and that they write numerous lengthy articles attacking the man taking Cameron Slater to court as the biggest psychopath in the history of New Zealand?

            • Tracey 39.1.1.1.1.1

              ahhhhhhhhhh. see my reply to your first question below

            • marty mars 39.1.1.1.1.2

              + 1

              So hard to tell friends from enemies these days, let alone enemies of enemies of enemies…

              The facts will come out about sabin.

              I don’t trust LF

              Key is a serial liar who couldn’t tell the truth unless he was making money on it and even then he’d lie – ethically bankrupt is he and a compulsive liar.

            • weka 39.1.1.1.1.3

              That’s some good detective work yourself 🙂

              I didn’t know about PG, I did know about ts, but it’s unclear to me if the person who got the ban was part of lf or a reader there. My sense about lf from looking at them in the past is that they’re dodgy some of the time and there is no way to judge the rest of the time (so I get what you are saying I think).

              “Impressive detective work in a name suppression case.”

              Not really. People would have known about the police investigation for months.

              edit, just seen marty and tracey’s comments. +1, +1

      • rawshark-yeshe 39.1.2

        maybe read to the end and not skim it weka …

        • weka 39.1.2.1

          Why?

          Let me summarise and see if I got the gist of it,

          1. there are numerous special investigations happening in various countries into organised sexual abuse crime by people in positions of power

          2. the NZ govt has so far declined to do the same here

          3. there are rumours as to why the NZ govt would do that

          4. NZ has rape culture entrenched to the highest levels, various examples include the Louise Nicholas and related cases, and the cases in the reporting done by Ian Wishart

          5. There are alleged connections between all of that and Sabin

          6. the National govt has known about the charges against Sabin for some time

          7. the National govt uses whatever it can, including two track DP, to deflect attention from the scandal surrounding Sabin and its own handling of the issue.

          That’s mostly from memory, I may have missed something.

          Pretty much all of that is in the public domain (although lf do seem to have inside knowledge on Sabin’s case, which is possibly useful). I just wish it could be written up in a more coherent, less sensationalist way. But to be fair to lf, part of the reason that their work is being used as an important reference currently is because NZ is still largely in denial about sexual abuse of children and no-one really wants to talk about it, let alone investigate and publicise the details.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 39.1.2.1.1

            Plus, Stuff reported that the prominent New Zealander

            …was remanded at large to reappear in court for a disputed-facts hearing next month.

            Disputed facts hearings normally follow guilty pleas.

          • rawshark-yeshe 39.1.2.1.2

            @weka .. was trying to be helpful, not provocative. I think maybe you missed a paragraph of some things not in the public domain, at least according to what you wrote earlier. can’t elucidate further or will be moderated !

            but great summary btw.

    • Tracey 39.2

      I have read a few of their articles over time and they use appallingly derogative language and self praise for using only fact not opinion while issuing opinion after opinion. I truly dont know what to make of them but the tone and language do remind me of the WO blog.

      passionate and abusive and the truth is mixed in there somewhere but not always easy to discern.

      funny thing is my partner said to me yesterday that she hopes sabin has done whatever he is being accused of because to be innocent of the rumored behaviour will make no difference now. she added ghat obviously she would rather there were no victims but i know what she meant.

    • lprent 39.3

      Apparently it is a pair of brothers over in Mt Roskill/Onehunga way. If you want the jaundiced view on them, then read https://laudafinemscam.wordpress.com/ (warning nutter alert)

      I ran across one of them at the High Court when I was watching Cameron Slater making a hash trying to protect his sources as a ‘journalist’. He appeared to be as stupid and untrained as his “legal posts” had indicated. Those are full of crap latin and a complete disdain for actually understanding legal principles – characteristic of someone trying to look the part without the skills. The same kind of thing applies whenever they write about politics.

      It wouldn’t surprise me if they were the scam artists that the deranged blog author in the link above suggests.

      • McFlock 39.3.1

        There was a commenter here a while back who used lauda finem as a handle – well into nutbar territory, as I recall.

        • emergency mike 39.3.1.1

          Thanks folks.

          • Tracey 39.3.1.1.1

            Interesting that Mr Slater has NOT chosen this case to breach suppression orders…

            • lprent 39.3.1.1.1.1

              “To be fair” (ie to not to be)

              Cameron Slater does already have quite a lot of a legal issues to deal with. I think that even he must be getting sick of dealing with the courts.

              Incidentally, wasn’t freednz was meant to be up and operating last year? At least according to what he was pushing to possible employees and contributors. There still looks to be absolutely nothing happening.

              One would have to speculate that there will soon be a characteristic legal catfight over all that soon (rather than after Cam had made it fail).

              • Tracey

                I hear you. i guess i wondered how drip, drip this would be at this point if it were not a right winger and I counter that with Slater’s behaviour having all the appearances of paying back double…

                Bryce Edwards actually did an article about this possibility prior to Christmas. Actually on the very day Mr key says he was finally and the last, person to know about Mr Sabin’s personal issues!

                http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11367008,

                • lprent

                  I suspect that is at least part of the reason as well. However it looks to me like John Key is collateral damage for blubberboy. After all he has to make a living for his family, and the press haven’t been taking notice of his commercial PR in his recent campaigns.

                  If you read his posts they read like another set of attacks on Goodfellow and the National party apparatus about selection practices.

                  We know from dirty politics where the impetus has come from for that in the past. It is a business issue with Lusk and co, and a bit of unfinished Slater family business.

                  So you have to ask who this week has control of the puppet stick that Cameron Slater has so firmly wedged up his arse and wired directly into his cranium. Lusk? Collins? John Slater? Some millionaire wannabe puppet master?

              • adam

                Thanks Iprent you just made my day. I forgot all about the other Slater attempt at a media empire – balls up.

                Giggling hilariously, still.

            • Anne 39.3.1.1.1.2

              emergency mike made this comment earlier…

              they write numerous lengthy articles attacking the man taking Cameron Slater to court as the biggest psychopath in the history of New Zealand?

              Interesting that, because my first reaction last night after reading the blog in question (now redacted) was:

              this lot are in close cahoots with Cameron Slater.

              I think you will find the dirt on the Sabin case has come from Slater himself. lprent is probably right. Slater has enough on his plate, so he’s handed the material on to them?

              Since it became clear last December that Slater had inside info. on the matter, I’m inclined to think that part is true. But some of the other claims (eg. police corruption in NZ) is loony-land stuff. If it were true, we’d be on a par with Zimbabwe or some such despotic regime.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Um I see your “loony-land” and raise you Parker, Hales and Rickard, not to mention the recent awful revelations from Aussie and the UK, also mentioned by LF.

                Is it so far beyond the realms of possibility that local authoritarian sadists operate in similar ways to those overseas?

                • Anne

                  Is it so far beyond the realms of possibility that local authoritarian sadists operate in similar ways to those overseas?

                  Yes. I’m in agreement. Have recently made comments here to that effect. But I think they went a few steps too far. I can’t believe all the police bosses over the past decade or two were/are corrupt. Some might have made some questionable decisions (a nice way to put it) but I can’t accept they were seriously corrupt.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    In the overseas examples – in various institutions – they’ve had established networks and ways of dealing with official scrutiny.

                    That network doesn’t require all the bosses to be corrupt – it just needs existing members to shoulder-tap potential recruits.

      • Rawsharkosaurus 39.3.2

        That’s the problem with trying to sort out fact from bullshit in this situation. As soon as the Welfare Whale gets involved it’s nutters all the way down.

  40. Tiger Mountain 40

    IF a Prime Minister was conclusively found to have known about a R**kS****r on his team and prevaricated would that be viewed seriously by the electorate?

    One hopes so particularly for sakes of those directly affected in any offending.

    • joe90 40.1

      Of course that nice Mr Key, isn’t his wife lovely, would never let something like that happen…..
      //

  41. Ron 41

    Just a thought that if all this supposition is correct then we are never likely to find out. Any lawyer worth his fee would arrange a quick request for transfer of case out of district. The defendant would get permanent suppression of name for obvious reasons and if eventually convicted publication of details would be heavily restricted.
    In fact in some ways all the guessing games going on would force the court to restrict reporting even more than usual

  42. Ron 42

    Just a thought that if all this supposition is correct then we are never likely to find out. Any lawyer worth his fee would arrange a quick request for transfer of case out of district. The defendant would get permanent suppression of name for obvious reasons and if eventually convicted publication of details would be heavily restricted.
    In fact in some ways all the guessing games going on would force the court to restrict reporting even more than usual

    • Tracey 42.1

      it cant restrict it more than it has. this is the highest restriction available. It already has what you warn of Ron.

      • Ron 42.1.1

        I am not aware of any Legal suppression, the only restriction at moment is for defamation reasons.
        As I said if it goes to court the sheer pre publicity would force courts to not only restrict details of any trial but would also restrict any announcement of a conviction or sentence as then people would add one and one and get 5 which would be extremely unfortunate for any victim.

        • Tracey 42.1.1.1

          i dont understand your distinction, can you explain further:

          defamation is its only legal protection. if you think you have been defamed you issue civil proceedings. Are you saying the current suppression or is not legal or are you saying it is to preserve unfair stigma in case the person is found not guilty?Your use of the words legal suppression are where most my confusion lies?

          also are you saying when a pre trial suppression order is in place which is so rigid as to include the place of the court is unlikely to be continued through the next processes whatever they may be.

          note: these are genuine questions. i did not practice criminal law.

          i have found the relevant section which states that the current order expires upon next appearance and reapplication is presumably made.

          Suppression of names

          200Court may suppress identity of defendant

          (1)A court may make an order forbidding publication of the name, address, or occupation of a person who is charged with, or convicted or acquitted of, an offence.

          (2)The court may make an order under subsection (1) only if the court is satisfied that publication would be likely to—

          (a)cause extreme hardship to the person charged with, or convicted of, or acquitted of the offence, or any person connected with that person; or

          (b)cast suspicion on another person that may cause undue hardship to that person; or

          (c)cause undue hardship to any victim of the offence; or

          (d)create a real risk of prejudice to a fair trial; or

          (e)endanger the safety of any person; or

          (f)lead to the identification of another person whose name is suppressed by order or by law; or

          (g)prejudice the maintenance of the law, including the prevention, investigation, and detection of offences; or

          (h)prejudice the security or defence of New Zealand.

          (3)The fact that a defendant is well known does not, of itself, mean that publication of his or her name will result in extreme hardship for the purposes of subsection (2)(a).

          (4)Despite subsection (2), when a person who is charged with an offence first appears before the court the court may make an interim order under subsection (1) if that person advances an arguable case that one of the grounds in subsection (2) applies.

          (5)An interim order made in accordance with subsection (4) expires at the person’s next court appearance, and may only be renewed if the court is satisfied that one of the grounds in subsection (2) applies.

          (6)When determining whether to make an order or further order under subsection (1) that is to have effect permanently, a court must take into account any views of a victim of the offence conveyed in accordance with section 28 of the Victims’ Rights Act 2002.

        • Lanthanide 42.1.1.2

          “As I said if it goes to court the sheer pre publicity would force courts to not only restrict details of any trial but would also restrict any announcement of a conviction or sentence as then people would add one and one and get 5 which would be extremely unfortunate for any victim.”

          Actually the theory at present is that Sabin plead guilty, and that his “resignation” on Friday was actually because he will been found guilty of a crime for which he would be forced to vacate his seat in Parliament anyway.

          • Tracey 42.1.1.2.1

            i dont think many plead guilty to the kind of crime being suggested bere.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 42.1.1.2.1.1

              So why is there a disputed facts hearing?

              • Tracey

                I dont know but I am not inclined to take AL at face value on the workings of the criminal justice system, which is why I engaged with Ron further down but he hasn’t replied yet.

                edit: Just read up about disputed facts and double checked the NBR reference to it… so yes, it appears whoever it is, has pleaded guilty and will run a dispute of the prosecutions facts prior to sentencing… which now makes me wonder if the prosecution/police have done a deal to make the charges lesser?

            • Lanthanide 42.1.1.2.1.2

              The type of crime he’s accused of is very damaging for one’s reputation. Denying the allegations, if they are then proved, is far worse than just admitting guilt. Especially for an ex-cop.

              • Tracey

                you mean he has no other cops being charged with him to lie as corroboration like rickard schollum et ?

  43. ianmac 43

    The charges against Sabin must be pretty serious given his resignation and the apparent desperate cover-up of the National Party.
    But in line with previous resignations Key will say that he has nothing to say regarding Sabin as he is no longer a National MP. Questions in the House. Nope. Even though questions should centre on the actions of Key rather than Sabin.

  44. ianmac 44

    Read Andrew Little’s quote from Radio Live “….Key is a liar.”
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11396354

    • One Anonymous Bloke 44.1

      Sainsbury had to work pretty hard to get Little to say it.

    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 44.2

      Turn off the volume … watch Key’s body language reveal he is lying.

      My psychologist friend said the coup de grace to any remnant of credibility that he was trying harde to construct was when he squeezed his own nose at around 42 seconds!!!

  45. Skinny 45

    Reading the comments of extreme Right Wingers Hide, Garrett and Hooton says ACT are looking to capitalise on Key-Nationals miseries to start a resurgence in ACT’s fortunes.

    Meanwhile a timely read by street fighting justice lawyer Kelly Ellis over on the daily blog. When suppression orders protect the predator not the prey. Well worth a read.

  46. A Voter 46

    Does anyone remember the media grooming of Key in the Bolger SHIPLEY
    days on tv and Keys divine choir boy smile when asked about when he would moving into politics as he sat there counting his millions and smiling smarmily giving some bulshit answer to creat a sense of humility on his part
    well its the same mo with this Sabin business playing the punters for as much time as he can get before he hits us or sacrifices Sabin
    Key doesnt have to worry about the Northland seat too few voters to worry about its always been national their either poverty stricken or country hicks so why should he give a shit he hasnt up till now
    Maybe he will get a shock the by election might just change the course of history God knows we need it
    National Party =DINOSAURS

  47. weka 47

    Dimpost is asking the question of why Key would appoint Sabin as Chair of the Law and Order select committee if he knew about the investigation. Thoughts?

    On the one hand it seems really unlikely that our super-gossipy Prime Minister didn’t know one of his own MPs was being investigated for a very serious crime. On the other, if he did know, why would he appoint the guy to a position which could – and has – blown up into a scandal? Makes no sense. Maybe they thought they could ride it out? That Sabin is an ex-cop and the police would look after their own, and it wouldn’t go to court? No one would ever find out and Sabin’s career could go on as normal.

    https://dimpost.wordpress.com/2015/02/04/shorter-sabin-summary/

    • rawshark-yeshe 47.1

      The first para is interesting:

      “Maybe they thought they could ride it out? That Sabin is an ex-cop and the police would look after their own, and it wouldn’t go to court? No one would ever find out and Sabin’s career could go on as normal.”

      Maybe it’s even murkier? How about a quid pro quo that by appointing Sabin it suggested to the police that if they looked after Sabin as one of their own, he would likewise look after them ?

      Failed though, didn’t it, whatever the truth may be ? Must be some brave and honest cops somewhere, thank goodness.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 47.1.1

        Or how about, extreme right wing authoritarian sadists stick together and protect their own.

      • Tracey 47.1.2

        one of the roastbusters was a cops son. why wouldnt key think it could be covered up.

        • joe90 47.1.2.1

          An allegation of rape in Dunedin, the dreadful treatment of Louise Nicholas, Schollum and Shipton, domestic violence, getting away with assault after assault after assault after assault, and sundry other offences. And then there’s the drug dealing, drug use and theft after theft.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 47.1.2.1.1

            Police, being human, make the same mistakes. When they do, they should face the consequences.

            It’s the cover-up that’s the problem.

            • Atiawa 47.1.2.1.1.1

              Those who believe they have more to offer the citizenery often become involved in local and central government politics. Invariably with a distinct right wing leaning, I wonder why.

            • weka 47.1.2.1.1.2

              “Police, being human, make the same mistakes. When they do, they should face the consequences.

              It’s the cover-up that’s the problem.”

              NZ Police have more both more responsibility and more culpability than the rest of society, because of their special role and because of their entrenched rape culture which some of them are unwilling to do much about. Raping someone isn’t a mistake, although I’m sure you didn’t mean that to come across so badly.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Yes, not my best work. The point is that they face justice rather than willful complacency.

          • Treetop 47.1.2.1.2

            Don’t forget the Central District Commander’s comment. Even though he was apologetic, it was a dreadful comment. Not sure what the outcome of the police investigation into his comment is.

    • Anne 47.2

      Which kinda begs the question: how did this get out? Who tipped off the media? Someone in National? Who feels slighted by the PM and his office? Who has close ties to the police and justice sector? Who would very much like Sabin’s position as Chair of the Law and Order Select Committee? Who is very close to WhaleOil. But who???

      I think this is a key clue! (Pun intended)

      Anyone notice during a brief TV news clip of the Nat MPS arriving at their extra caucus session the other day that a certain former minister well versed in matters of justice and police affairs was the first depicted laughing happily as she entered the venue?

      https://dimpost.wordpress.com/2015/02/04/shorter-sabin-summary/

  48. freedom 48

    dear mods,
    completely understand the necessary edits but as 100% protection is what you said you are going for -here are a few references that slipped through the net. feel free to delete this once you have the info 🙂

    The Sabin issue timeline

    The Sabin issue timeline

    The Sabin issue timeline


    link to a blog about said site, maybe replace the hyperlink words?

    The Sabin issue timeline

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