This Government’s day of shame

Written By: - Date published: 10:33 am, November 14th, 2024 - 63 comments
Categories: act, Christopher Luxon, david seymour, national, racism, same old national, treaty settlements - Tags:

This is the day that Act’s dogwhistle Lets Change the Treaty bill is set to be debated in Parliament.

It was meant to be introduced next Thursday, the same day that a large Hikoi was meant to arrive at Parliament. But in a big F*(k you to the movement Seymour brought the introduction day forward.

The change will have the benefit that Christopher Luxon will be out of the country when the bill is debated. Clearly he wants to distance himself from this hate fuelled piece of misrepresented history as much as possible. It appears that even Luxon has standards when it comes to avoiding dog whistle politics that will hurt the country.

And Seymour keeps saying that he just wants us to debate what is in the bill.

From Anneke Smith at Radio New Zealand:

“They say kill the bill, I say read the bill because once you see it, ask yourself what’s wrong with the government having the right to govern, the government having an obligation to uphold all people’s rights and all people’s rights being equal before the law.

“I don’t think the people who are protesting can explain what it is they’re opposed to.”

Which is absolute bollocks because just recently fourty Kings Counsel have written an open letter to tell him that the bill misrepresents the treaty and would completely undermine article 2. They have read the bill and have clearly explained why they oppose the bill.

And their criticism is scathing. From Radio New Zealand:

The senior members of the independent bar view the introduction of the bill (and the intended referendum) as a “wholly inappropriate as a way of addressing such an important and complex constitutional issue”.

The letter states the existing principles (including partnership, active protection, equity and redress) are “designed to reflect the spirit and intent of the Treaty as a whole and the mutual obligations and responsibilities of the parties”. They say the principles now represent “settled law”.

The letter said the coalition’s bill sought to “redefine in law the meaning of te Tiriti, by replacing the existing ‘Treaty principles’ with new Treaty principles which are said to reflect the three articles of te Tiriti”.

The lawyers say those proposed principles do not reflect te Tiriti, and, by “imposing a contested definition of the three articles, the bill seeks to rewrite the Treaty itself”.

The Treaty Principles Bill, they say, would have the “effect of unilaterally changing the meaning of te Tiriti and its effect in law, without the agreement of Māori as the Treaty partner”.

The proposed principle 2 “retrospectively limits Māori rights to those that existed at 1840”, they said, and the bill states that “if those rights ‘differ from the rights of everyone’, then they are only recognised to the extent agreed in historical Treaty settlements with the Crown”.

The lawyers said that erased the Crown’s Article 2 guarantee to Māori of tino rangatiratanga.

“By recognising Māori rights only when incorporated into Treaty settlements with the Crown, this proposed principle also attempts to exclude the courts, which play a crucial role in developing the common law and protecting indigenous and minority rights.”

They also explained the proposed principle three did not “recognise the fundamental Article 2 guarantee to Māori of the right to be Māori and to have their tikanga Māori (customs, values and customary law) recognised and protected in our law”.

The letter also points out deficiencies in process, how the bill attempts to ram through fundamental constitutional change without adequate discussion and notes that the Waitangi Tribunal confirms that the bill itself is a breach of the treaty, specifically the requirement to act in good faith.

And on the other side of the argument is the racist Hobson’s Pledge, some dude bros on twitter and Seymour who never saw a racist itch he did not want to scratch.

Sure lets have a debate between people who know what they are talking about and people who don’t, ignore the collateral damage and set back race relations by decades.

Seymour does not want a debate. He wants a circus.

63 comments on “This Government’s day of shame ”

  1. Tiger Mountain 1
    14 November 2024 at 11:09 am

    As others have pointed out–there is a substantial economic side to the TPB–Seymour and Act’s wealthy backers deeply resent the restrictions that te Tiriti puts on various of their anticipated “big pay days” from conservation estate mining to deep sea drilling.

    Māori intellectual property rights and the environment all of us live in are often protected by te Tiriti provisions and processes. Māori, pākehā and tau iwi have put on a magnificent united push back this week–a knee in the nuts for Seymour and his capitalist mates. Increasing numbers of non Māori are realising the benefits and enjoying the solidarity of working together with tangata whenua.

    The raw red neck racism and post colonial denial of Hobsons Choice is there alright, but even those bozos will get the message eventually. It is one thing to accept Māori presence in a ceremonial way like Haka at rugby, but te Tiriti and Waitangi Tribunal and the Crown demand way more…

    Reply
    • georgecom 1.1
      14 November 2024 at 10:13 pm

      similar to reason I oppose Seymour. My first perspective is those who claim "Maori privilege", mostly supporters of neo-liberalism which privileged wealthy, powerful, old white men (eg the BRT and their front men like Brash) and delivered to them more wealth and power. I dislike that level of hypocrisy. Seymours bill reframes maori as consumers within his neo-liberal world where the privileges of entrenched wealth and power continue. I reflected tonite the reason I became a strong supporter of organised labour was growing up during a period when neo-liberalism sought to write unions as the voice of working people out of the picture, in the pursuit of wealth and power.

      Reply
    • Patricia Bremner 1.2
      15 November 2024 at 8:32 am

      yes 100% Tiger Mountain and Georgecom

      Reply
  2. Dennis Frank 2
    14 November 2024 at 11:37 am

    I was impressed by how Labour used co-governance as a cloak for a stealth agenda: never saw any attempt at an intellectual rationale. Nonetheless I felt the thing was okay in spirit. Lack of follow-through continues to resound.

    As a reaction to that, Seymour's attempt to modernise the treaty seems equally banal. As usual, we have the left & right competing to see who are the biggest bunch of morons.

    Seymour is servant to some kind of organised global think-tank network, so I suspect his agenda conforms to rightist ideology around maintaining the traditional control system established long ago in western countries that created the state as an operational tool, then designed democracy as a facade to create the illusion of equal rights.

    Reply
    • Obtrectator 2.1
      14 November 2024 at 12:09 pm

      You seem to be implying that Russia, Belarus, the DSA, the UK and even lil' ol' NZ all share essentially the same political model, the only differences being the degrees of subtlety employed in operating it.

      Reply
      • Dennis Frank 2.1.1
        14 November 2024 at 12:49 pm

        One can't really generalise on how different countries use the state model, but there's been considerable convergence. Louis XIV said l'etat c'est moi, and many monarchs have self-identified with the state they use as operational scheme.

        I agree with your notion of degrees of subtlety, which seems usually to adapt to the populace the monarch or regime is controlling. Russia is interesting inasmuch as it pretends democracy whilst using a de facto monarch. In Britain the monarch is not considered part of the control system despite his role as residual emblem.

        The crucial thing is what force is used to create mass subservience. In our case, the left & right are used as glove puppets to alternate state control, elections serve as moral fig-leaf to cover the naked truth of democracy as control system. Conformity to the prescription is secured via neolib mythology (increasing wealth lifts all boats).

        Reply
        • Craig H 2.1.1.1
          14 November 2024 at 3:21 pm

          Without spending a lot of time on it, the English common law system is based on that – a legal fiction that the sovereign is the lawmaker, enforcer of laws and judge in courts (and head of the church). Obviously in practice it doesn't work like that, but that's the legal fiction behind courts and Parliament.

          Reply
        • roblogic 2.1.1.2
          14 November 2024 at 3:29 pm

          That is some kooky conspiracy fodder DF.

          Your repetition of groundswell lines about co-governance does you no credit. The only "stealth agenda"was to uphold Crown Treaty obligations in good faith.

          A lot depends on the character of our elected leaders. In Aotearoa the Left is largely working to improve the lot of ordinary people, whereas the Right are clearly there to cause chaos and confusion to enrich a tiny malevolent elite.

          Reply
          • Dennis Frank 2.1.1.2.2
            14 November 2024 at 3:55 pm

            I've been reading about history since age 7 in the mid-'50s, and conspiracies are frequent throughout. I don't have much of a penchant for conspiracist world-views, having been appraising them for 53 years, since they mostly seem to exist as a psychological consequence of competitive organising. Secret societies have long been a dime a dozen but nowadays some are semi-open. Bilderbergers publish their organising schedule on their website, for instance.

            Labour would have been credible if they had explained co-governance to the public. Think about it. The media never reported Labour's rationale for it because Labour didn't divulge their agenda. If your explanation was correct, they would have no reason for secrecy. They would have been honest.

            I too shared your view of the left, long ago. I don't blame you for adhering to it, since they do sometimes justify their stance via achievement, but not often.

            Reply
            • roblogic 2.1.1.2.2.1
              14 November 2024 at 4:14 pm

              I don't know how Labour can divulge their evil secret agenda if there isn't one.

              Their policies and plans were not secret but debated openly (for years in the case of 3 waters, way too long and giving the opposition time to spread manure, such as the racist co-governance boogeyman of Maori stealing da water)

              Reply
              • Dennis Frank …
                14 November 2024 at 4:33 pm

                You're evading the point. They did explain 3 waters in the media, they didn't do so for co-governance. I have commented elsewhere today that I supported the principle – co-governance seemed to me an extension of Te Tiriti & I was puzzled at their continuing refusal to make this point to kiwis.

                So no, you're misreading me if you think I see their agenda as evil. I see their intentions as good, even if they are – as they seem – braindead.

                Reply
              • thinker …
                14 November 2024 at 5:41 pm

                …with the possible exception of Douglas and his ilk.

                Reply
            • roblogic 2.1.1.2.2.2
              14 November 2024 at 5:13 pm

              The main conspiracy I'm worried about is a transnational oligarch class and their handmaidens in right wing parties that have no qualms about undermining democracy if it lines their own pockets.

              Reply
            • Patricia Bremner 2.1.1.2.2.3
              15 November 2024 at 9:31 am

              Dennis get out of your top down straight jacket.

              Maori and tau iwi value Te Tiriti because it has given us a path to a shared future. It is an intellectual law based exercise as our 40 KCs indicated, but what is missed by the arms length blame game of intellectual chess, is the sense of unity and belonging a great number of us now feel and bring to the gatherings, which will be strengthened by this "crowd sense"

              Many studies have shown that people will choose what is good for the continuance of their species. Seymour has pushed us into taking a stance. It appears our working together in good faith unity of purpose with a community based strength is preferred to Hobson's Choice or Seymour"s version.

              Atlas, you appear to avoid naming, X, and the billionaires club are trying to control all information, break down any agreements or even leaders or countries to gain the right to behave like modern day pirates. Private is a word akin to piracy. Public means for the common good.

              When a group of parties agree to strip the Public purse for Private good, Maori, Tau iwi and workers in that system have started to unite to re-establish threatened or extinguished rights. Kia Kaha Ake Ake Ake Aue!!!

              This Government is now on notice. They are not efficient reasonable or honest, and their path will be blocked by uniting forces who see them as dangerous to our way of life. Further those who voted for them, now see their families sacrificed, divided by distance and controlled by growing tyranny

              English and English Law Courts system lead to Treaties and contracts. These are to be upheld and in disputes, decided by the courts of law, not recently elected 8% partners of a Coalition, who did not put these ideas out before the Election. So to say one party is underhand looks to be a bit of personal baggage.

              Tau Iwi and Te Tiriti will be here when Seymour like Brash will be a sad racist footnote in your well read histories.

              Reply
              • Dennis Frank …
                15 November 2024 at 9:48 am

                smiley A good outline of the commons ethos, Patricia. Don't forget English commons law was founded on a blend of Saxon origin & Norman rule! It gives the right as much moral authority as the left, and always has operated as part of our western control system.

                Reply
  3. Ad 3
    14 November 2024 at 1:21 pm

    Got a link to the KCs letter?

    I'd like to print and peruse over the weekend.

    Reply
  4. observer 4
    14 November 2024 at 1:55 pm

    It's certainly a day of shame, but it's also a day of absurdity. Of farce. We are now living in a Monty Python sketch.

    Genuine question for anybody who might know (because I've searched and found nothing at all);

    Has there ever been a bill introduced by a government that was so strongly attacked by … the government that introduced it? Luxon is posing as the leader of the opposition to his own government! Absurd is an understatement.

    I think it's unprecedented, but happy to be corrected. Good luck finding anything.

    Reply
    • SPC 4.1
      14 November 2024 at 2:33 pm

      Ankle biters unite. Vote 2026. Take down the Atlas Network.

      Reply
    • James Simpson 4.2
      14 November 2024 at 2:44 pm

      You have nailed it.

      Private Members bills often don't get too far past go, but a Government bill that is destined to go nowhere because the government does not support it, is up there on the list of fucking dumb things that happen in Wellington.

      Reply
    • Bearded Git 4.3
      15 November 2024 at 6:32 am

      Luxon would have gained a huge amount of respect across the political spectrum if he had used the KC's letter to vote against the bill.

      But his spinelessness will result in this poisonous coalition being a one-term government.

      Reply
  5. Muttonbird 5
    14 November 2024 at 2:22 pm

    Cluckwit having to use increasingly strong language in his bizarre denunciation of a bill he himself will vote for today.

    "You do not go negate, with a single stroke of a pen, 184 years of debate and discussion, with a bill that I think is very simplistic," Luxon said on Thursday before leaving the country.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360482519/live-pm-christopher-luxon-criticises-simplistic-treaty-bill-ahead-first-reading

    Reply
  6. roblogic 6
    14 November 2024 at 3:37 pm

    Abbie Jury / @tikorangi.bsky.social nails Luxon's hypocrisy and abandonment of any shreds of integrity:

    Luxon treats the coalition agreement – which HE personally negotiated under a year ago – as immutable, non-negotiable, carved in stone. But the founding document of this country, Te Tiriti? On the table to be torn to shreds, rewritten, renegotiated for at least the next six months.— Abbie Jury 🌱 (@tikorangi.bsky.social) November 13, 2024 at 1:36 PM

    Reply
    • georgecom 6.1
      14 November 2024 at 10:17 pm

      was he CEO when the deal with Virgin fell apart or Ansett Aussie? you might think so. For all his big talk pre forming a govt about getting deals done etc Seymour put him over the barrell from day 1 and Luxon hasn't really gotten up from there since

      Reply
    • Bearded Git 6.2
      15 November 2024 at 6:33 am

      Well said Robo…+100

      Reply
  7. Tony Veitch 7
    14 November 2024 at 4:07 pm

    Wow! Brownlee just lost control of the House and suspended proceedings until the gallery is cleared!

    The fight to make this a ONE TERM government has really begun!

    Reply
  8. SPC 8
    14 November 2024 at 4:10 pm

    Seymour

    They know allowing this debate means it is only a matter of time before the bill's logic prevails and each person in this country has equal rights.

    Jackson

    David Seymour, (is) a "liar".

    The Speaker asked Jackson to withdraw and apologise.

    Jackson said it was a message from the hīkoi.

    The Speaker has told Jackson to leave the House.

    Waititi

    Waititi said Te Tiriti is superior to any person or law. He said it is the document on which democracy was established in New Zealand. Parliament means nothing without it, he said.

    He mentioned Te Pāti Māori's policy for its own Parliament.

    Former MP Tau Henare described

    the National Party as "dirty rotten mongrels" over the Bill on social media

    Meagher as Chair of the Justice Committee outlined why the bill was before parliament, as a deal is a deal, then talked about people living better lives as being more important.

    After the votes were counted to allow the bill to proceed – a songbird approach was used as intro to a haka.

    Local version of, District 12 has a delegation arriving next week.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/treaty-principles-bill-government-to-face-grilling-ahead-of-vote/LHPY7ZGX3FDUNKUCIS6XJHC32I/

    Reply
  9. Mike the Lefty 9
    14 November 2024 at 4:18 pm

    Seymour is a dirty little shyster and con man.

    He seeks to be the voice of reason, fair play and unity, but his party's populist policies turn people against each other, while he sits back and laughs.

    Reply
    • Tony Veitch 9.1
      14 November 2024 at 4:33 pm

      This ACT-led CoC is, I hope, beginning to realise if you sow the wind, you are likely to reap the whirlwind!

      Reply
    • SPC 9.2
      14 November 2024 at 4:40 pm

      Sure, recruited into the libertarian "artful dodger" Atlas Network cult while abroad, then to return to the Douglas branch.

      Reply
  10. Gosman 10
    14 November 2024 at 4:38 pm

    The reason the Bill was introduced was so the Judges and Lawyers did not create a constitutional arrangement for the country without the consent of the wider population so the fact 40 KC's oppose it is not really a negative for the Bill.

    Reply
    • roblogic 10.1
      14 November 2024 at 4:43 pm

      Cool, let's rewrite our founding document because Mr 8% Seymour thinks he is better than 50 years of legal opinion and those annoying Māori

      Reply
    • observer 10.2
      14 November 2024 at 4:43 pm

      Obviously that's not the reason the Bill was introduced. Let's not pretend its purpose is to become law. It is to create headlines, and Seymour has been successful in that.

      (If it was really introduced to become law, Seymour would have compromised, in order to get National and NZF support for a modified version of it).

      Reply
      • roblogic 10.2.1
        14 November 2024 at 5:02 pm

        It's possible that Luxon will take a cowardly tactic and call a referendum, opening the possibility of a Brexit like outcome, giving him ammunition to destroy Te Tiriti.

        With his track record of broken promises and coverups, I don't believe Luxon's word at all. His government is dumb enough to try it.

        Reply
        • observer 10.2.1.1
          14 November 2024 at 5:11 pm

          Not at all likely.

          He wants to be the PM that "delivers" on the economy (i.e. his version of it, tax cuts, privatising, reduce state sector etc). He is a right-winger on money, his first love.

          Luxon isn't interested in this issue and doesn't want it to be his legacy.

          Too many on the left reach for implausible conspiracies instead of Occam's razor.

          Reply
        • Tony Veitch 10.2.1.2
          14 November 2024 at 5:16 pm

          It's possible Seymour may threaten to pull the plug on the ACT-led CoC.

          Luxon's ego won't allow this to happen – to see his government only last half a term and then dissolve in chaos. He may be tempted to give in, and perhaps allow his MPs a conscience vote after the select committee – if focus groups suggest there is enough support.

          A lot could happen during the six month redneck hatefest about to occur!

          Reply
          • observer 10.2.1.2.1
            14 November 2024 at 5:25 pm

            Again, more fevered imagination.

            Seymour is never going to say to the voters of Epsom, the biggest National voting bloc in the entire country …

            "Hey guys, I know you always party vote Nat and I know you wanted Labour out because of the cost of living, economy, crime etc and not for this bill which was way down your list of priorities (as all polls show) .. but screw you, I'm outta here, and um, please vote for me again after I stopped doing the one thing you've ever supported ACT in Epsom for – a guaranteed vote for National on conf & supp. And enjoy your Lab/Green/TPM government that emerges from the chaos".

            No part of that is even faintly plausible.

            Reply
          • Incognito 10.2.1.2.2
            14 November 2024 at 5:30 pm

            It’s possible Seymour may threaten to pull the plug on the ACT-led CoC.

            Why on Earth would he do that??

            He’s got his wish, can grandstand on his Bill for 6 or so months, and will be Deputy-PM.

            I think that (too) many ideologically inclined people on the LH side of politics, myself included, tend towards wishful thinking.

            Reply
            • roblogic 10.2.1.2.2.1
              14 November 2024 at 5:39 pm

              Seymour could threaten and bluster about dissolving the government as part of a bad-cop/ good-cop routine to mislead and gaslight the NZ public into accepting a "compromise" version of his racist Bill

              Reply
    • Muttonbird 10.3
      14 November 2024 at 4:47 pm

      Look what the cat dragged in.

      With only one house, the NZ political system is highly vulnerable to populist nonsense such as that from Seymour. Those judges are our only check and balance against the huge flaws that democracy throws up.

      Rather than highlight the courts’ interference, the racist principles bill highlights their importance.

      Reply
    • Macro 10.4
      14 November 2024 at 4:58 pm

      Huh!!??

      You are aware that there are 3 branches of Government. One branch is:

      The Judiciary Also known as the courts, this branch interprets and applies the law. It includes all judges. The Judiciary have been interpreting Ti Tiriti almost from its inception.

      And Really!?

      Reply
    • SPC 10.5
      14 November 2024 at 5:05 pm

      No, the reason for the bill was to bind future governments in their decision-making.

      The judges said the construct as to precedent/tradition was legally null and void.

      Reply
    • georgecom 10.6
      14 November 2024 at 10:21 pm

      no, the real reason is that Seymour, Brash and ilk like them don't like the constitutional arrangements that have developed. If they did like it his bill wouldn't have even been dreamed of

      Reply
  11. observer 11
    14 November 2024 at 4:54 pm

    "Politician tells a fib" is not exactly a shocking headline, but this from Seymour is an absolute whopper, and the media really should stop repeating it without pointing out how dishonest it is:

    "There wouldn't be a government without a coalition agreement to do this," Seymour said.

    Source:

    Christopher Luxon gives scathing appraisal of Treaty Principles Bill ahead of first reading | RNZ News

    Nobody believes that Seymour was ever going to refuse to support National on confidence and supply, so Hipkins could then form a government instead of Luxon, and ACT would be in opposition.

    Nobody.

    Reply
    • roblogic 11.1
      14 November 2024 at 5:32 pm

      Luxon seems to believe it, he wants us to think Seymour was twisting his arm, he claims to disagree with it, and he's acting as if he had no choice.

      "Oh noes I am sorry I have to dismantle the ferries and the health system and Te Tiriti because of the economy/the coalition agreement/my dentist told me to"

      He's the fucken PM and he isn't fronting up and taking responsibility for his own choices.

      Reply
  12. adam 12
    14 November 2024 at 7:11 pm

    Seymour does not want a debate. He wants a circus.

    Micky Savage, you are a wonderful man.

    Great piece of journalism.

    One hell of a last line

    Reply
  13. thinker 13
    15 November 2024 at 7:30 am

    IMHO..

    This was never about getting the bill into law.

    ACT gets what it needs with getting through the first reading.

    Public consultation will tease out the arguments for opposing the bill, which can then be worked on so they can deal to them the next time it is trotted out, let's say when a coalition deal is to have a referendum.

    Reply
  14. Mike the Lefty 14
    15 November 2024 at 3:37 pm

    I reckon Seymour got exactly what he wanted at yesterday's bill introduction – the Maori MPs appearing to be wild and out of control – confirmation of what his racist, elite tub thumping supporters think of him already – the voice of reason and restraint in the face of wild men (and women).

    His barely disguised smirk while he sat back in his chair while the challenge was made said it all. He basks in the divisions that this bill is causing.

    It was obvious the Maori MPs weren't going to take this lying down, emotions were high and tempers flaring. You could see it coming a mile away, they were responding they way they knew how, as Seymour knew they would. You can only be provoked to a certain point before you have to respond.

    Seymour has gambled on such a show to bolster public support behind his bill and get National and/or NZ First to change their minds and vote FOR the bill, which I suspect they might do in any case.

    Seymour, Luxon and Peters have bought the house into disrepute, not Maipi-Clarke.

    Reply

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