Tolley twisting on education

26 comments on “Tolley twisting on education ”

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1. Craig Glen Eden 1

   29 October 2010 at 8:33 am

   Classic case of National knowing that something is in fact white but claiming it is black because it suits their purpose and PR. They have done this with education from day one with the whole one in five fail dog whistle. If education is one of the major building blocks to moving our economy forward and insuring our kids can foot it in this world surely their pay should reflect that.

   Stop misrepresenting the truth Anne Tolley.
2. Fabregas4 2

   29 October 2010 at 8:44 am

   In fact 1 in 5 do not fail in all education systems. New Zealand’s so called ‘tail of under achievement’ is less than 16% and amongst the lowest in the world. A clue for Tolley and all politicians – to lift achievement first take a look at social indicators – poverty, housing, crime, employment, health and in particular how they relate to Maori and Pasifika children and see if there is any correlation with how well these groups do at school.
   • Colonial Viper 2.1

     29 October 2010 at 8:54 am

     One other thing – parents have to care about their childrens’ education. I believe that this is an important independent variable in childrens educational outcomes which is not well captured in current measures.
   • mickysavage 2.2

     29 October 2010 at 9:02 am

     Someone should tell her that one in two New Zealand students are below average. That will really get her going.

     Seriously though given the very positive comments about our education why would you want to f**k with it?
     • Colonial Viper 2.2.1

       29 October 2010 at 9:04 am

       Hmmmmm below the median maybe 😛

       Seriously though given the very positive comments about our education why would you want to f**k with it?

       She’s a National Minister who needs to flex her stupid muscles.
       • mickysavage 2.2.1.1

         29 October 2010 at 9:16 am

         With sufficiently small steps average nearly, median definately!
         • ianmac 2.2.1.1.1

           29 October 2010 at 10:25 am

           The moment you define an average point, it follows that 50% must be above and 50% must be below. Only way out is to not have an average point.
           • Lanthanide 2.2.1.1.1.1

             29 October 2010 at 12:45 pm

             No, it means 50% of the values must be above and 50% below.

             Take 10 numbers: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 10. Average of that is 19/10 = 1.9, but 9 of the numbers are below 1.9 and only 1 is above 1.9, or 90% below the average and 10% above.

             For a true normal distribution (and I mean the statistical definition of ‘normal distribution’ here), the average will be the same as the median, and 50% will be above and 50% below. Student achievement is probably a normal distribution (it may be shifted upwards so that average on an exam score is not 50/100, though) so would probably hold in this case. But it is important to understand that the average does not mean “50% above, 50% below” – that only holds true for normally distributed data. Median, on the other hand, always means 50% above and 50% below, because it is the ‘middle number’.
             • wtl …

               29 October 2010 at 12:52 pm

               Of course, ‘average’ does not have to be defined as the arithmetic mean, defining it as the median would be just as correct.
               • Lanthanide …

                 29 October 2010 at 1:15 pm

                 Yes, that’s true, but it’s always annoyed me. It’s silly to have a term that can apply to one of 3 different mathematical values (median, mean, mode) which are often difficult to separate based solely on context.

                 Also I meant “50% of the sum of the values must be above and 50% below”, not the values themselves.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 29 October 2010 at 1:34 pm

                 None of this rally matters as I am reasonably sure that Tolley would not be able to differentiate and define the terms ‘average’, ‘mean’, ‘mode’ and ‘median’.
                 • Lanthanide …

                   29 October 2010 at 9:13 pm

                   Of course, but neither can the media. It is important to understand these concepts as it lets you take a more informed stance on a particular story and whether it’s bullshit or not.
                   • mickysavage …

                     29 October 2010 at 9:24 pm

                     I have done this before. Next time I will say “median”.

                     Mind you if I said “average” or “median” I think that Tolley’s response would be the same …
3. Bunji 3

   29 October 2010 at 9:00 am

   And spending all your time measuring them still won’t improve those 1 in 5’s standards. The teachers already know who the kids failing in their class are. Best leave them more time to fix it, rather than penalising all the children by wasting quality education time on preparing them for tests, then testing them to find out what they already know.
   • Lanthanide 3.1

     29 October 2010 at 9:44 am

     National Standards is a way of measuring teachers performance, so they can then institute different payscales for well performing teachers. The fact that she has to pretend it is somehow about children is what is driving this endless stream of nonsense, because she can’t just come out and say it’s really about teachers.
     • ianmac 3.1.1

       29 October 2010 at 10:34 am

       I bet that you Lanthanide, like everyone else cannot define a good teacher. The work done by teachers in decile 1 schools is incredibly competent. But the “standards” reached can be much lower for socio-economic reasons.
       The teachers in a decile 10 schools can have high “standards” but not work nearly as hard since the intake have advantaged beginnings. (Actually a teacher I know is looking for jobs away from his decile 10 school, because the kids are smug, complacent and very hard to motivate. Yet their “standards” of 3 Rs are high?) Perhaps the Decile 10 teachers should get performance pay/bonuses?
       • Lanthanide 3.1.1.1

         29 October 2010 at 12:41 pm

         Hey, don’t shoot the messenger.
         • ianmac 3.1.1.1.1

           29 October 2010 at 2:02 pm

           Lanthanide: Sorry. After posting it I thought it might sound a bit … you know.
           • Lanthanide 3.1.1.1.1.1

             29 October 2010 at 9:14 pm

             Been there, done that 🙂
4. ianmac 4

   29 October 2010 at 10:36 am

   Rob: Well said. With such contradictions, one would look seriously for motivations of Tolley/Key beyond National Standards.
5. Draco T Bastard 5

   29 October 2010 at 10:40 am

   We have an excellent education system. But Anne Tolley is determined to break it.

   We already knew that. An educated populace is dangerous to the dictatorship that NACT want to bring back.
6. Crumble 6

   29 October 2010 at 12:02 pm

   This is the education system, for me a teacher. I was called a cunt the other day by a student for telling them to put their cell phone away in class. They were in a grump because they were hung-over from the night before. On the other end of the scale one of my students got all excellences for their internal work for Level 2 History.

   They education system is not “broken”, it does not need “fixed” what teachers need is time and the training to deal with the increasingly violent and aggressive behaviour from students.
   • Vicky32 6.1

     29 October 2010 at 6:55 pm

     “I was called a cunt the other day by a student for telling them to put their cell phone away in class. ”
     Hells teeth! My sympathies indeed… (I am glad I am an ESOL teacher – Chinese students have an ingrained cultural respect for teachers that means that when I say “put your mobile away” they jump to obey! The same with the other students, apart from the Vietnamese who don’t have intrinsic motivation – just the ‘rents sending them here… 🙁 )
     Deb
7. marsman 7

   29 October 2010 at 7:34 pm

   National say it’s broken when in fact it’s not broken but they are in the process of breaking it.

Links to post

1. New Zealand: posted on 28 October 2010 at 10:33 pm
2. Schools stand up for education « The Standard: posted on 3 November 2010 at 8:30 am

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