Trumputin

Written By: - Date published: 8:10 am, July 17th, 2018 - 206 comments
Categories: Deep stuff, democracy under attack, Donald Trump, International, Politics, Russia, Spying, us politics, you couldn't make this shit up - Tags:

Clearly there is nothing to see here. Russia did not interfere in the late US election.  All that fake news was just random posts by unconnected individuals, not evidence of sinister covert action by one of America’s enemies to undermine its democratic system.

And what does Robert Mueller know?  His latest indictment charging 12 Russian military officers effectively states that the US thinks it can prove beyond reasonable doubt that there was illegitimate Russian interference in the last election.  But what does he know?

The background to the indictment is in this article from the New York Times which includes this passage:

The special counsel investigating Russian interference in the 2016 election issued an indictment of 12 Russian intelligence officers on Friday in the hacking of the Democratic National Committee and the Clinton presidential campaign. The indictment came only three days before President Trump was planning to meet with President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia in Helsinki, Finland.

The 29-page indictment is the most detailed accusation by the American government to date of the Russian government’s interference in the 2016 election, and it includes a litany of brazen Russian subterfuge operations meant to foment chaos in the months before Election Day.

From phishing attacks to gain access to Democratic operatives, to money laundering, to attempts to break into state elections boards, the indictment details a vigorous and complex effort by Russia’s top military intelligence service to sabotage the campaign of Mr. Trump’s Democratic rival, Hillary Clinton.

The timing of the indictment, by Robert S. Mueller III, the special counsel, added a jolt of tension to the already freighted atmosphere surrounding Mr. Trump’s meeting with Mr. Putin. It is all but certain to feed into the conspiratorial views held by the president and some of his allies that Mr. Mueller’s prosecutors are determined to undermine Mr. Trump’s designs for a rapprochement with Russia.

Trump does not believe a word of it.  And Putin was not aware that the indictment had even been laid.  As if.

And a question about the issue that has kept the world on tenterhooks, is there a pee tape, was answered by Putin with quite possibly.

Lets leave the last word to the POTUS from two years ago.

206 comments on “Trumputin ”

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  1. JohnSelway 1
    17 July 2018 at 8:29 am

    Trump all but committed treason openly and on camera. Even Foxnews is aghast.

    • Andre 1.1
      17 July 2018 at 8:33 am

      That’s treason in the commonly accepted meaning of the word. In the US legal sense, committing treason effectively requires the US to be in a declared war against the adversary the traitor is helping.

      • JohnSelway 1.1.1
        17 July 2018 at 8:38 am

        Either way – it’ll be hard pressed by anyone but the most ardent trump supporter (which is unfortunately a large segment of the US population) to see this as anything but the President acquiescing to a foreign power over his own administration

        • Andre 1.1.1.1
          17 July 2018 at 8:43 am

          Yep. He may as well have just come right out and said. “Yes it’s true, I really am Putin’s pussy. Whaddaya gonna do about it, bitches?” And Putin may as well have followed up with “What he said”.

        • Gosman 1.1.1.2
          17 July 2018 at 9:17 am

          More over his own Government not his own Administration. The investigation in to Russia may been overseen by the Administration but it is more a product of the bureaucracy.

      • cleangreen 1.1.2
        17 July 2018 at 9:51 am

        Correct 100% Andre,

        The motives;

        This is a conpired phase two of another ‘reds under the bed’ McCarthyism to start a war witrh Russia by those who want to break up Russias massive assets and resources for their own financial gain.

        • Tricledrown 1.1.2.1
          19 July 2018 at 5:42 pm

          Clean green your conspiracy theory has no basis no one is going to start an unwinnable war with Russia you idiot.
          Crimea a river Ukraine not even a push back. Georgia no push back their either
          Syria no push back.
          You are out of touch or maybe just touched.

    • SPC 1.2
      17 July 2018 at 12:26 pm

      Trump’s motive is obvious.

      He wants all the credit for his win, will reject others claiming the Russians helped him (Clinton helped him more by not campaigning in the rust belt states) as this reduces his mandate and authority to govern.

      And he might suspect that those claiming Russia was involved are doing so as part of a campaign against his presdency, to weaken his personal mandate and to control his presidency.

    • xanthe 1.3
      17 July 2018 at 3:54 pm

      So the inquisition convenes . Its bullshit . I am so dissapointed in you all ! What sorry herd of sheep you are

    • Liberal Realist 1.4
      17 July 2018 at 4:05 pm

      Hyperbole.

      Trump at the very least is attempting to repair relations between two nuclear superpowers who’s relationship has been seriously damaged by the Democrat witch hunt.

      The whole Russian collusion narrative is false.

      See statement from congressman Louie Gohmert – FBI Agent Strzok was told by intelligence community inspector general that Clinton’s (illegal) email server was breached by a non Russian foreign entity.

      I loath to link Fox, but here you go:
      http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/07/12/gohmert-reacts-peter-strzok-hearing-and-clinton-email-server-scandal

      • Ed 1.4.1
        17 July 2018 at 4:10 pm

        Luke Harding, author of Collusion, was shown up to be a liar.

      • cleangreen 1.4.2
        17 July 2018 at 8:11 pm

        Agreed Liberal Realist, 100%

        President Trump has passed the test of being a effective statesan because he has been to 23 Countries since becomming president and he has calmed many previous ‘Hot spots” so we give him an ‘A’ so the naysayers need to get over their hangup and accept him now.

        Too many are believing the rubbish that George Soros ‘media propaganda’ he puts out and hides behind.

  2. KJT 2
    17 July 2018 at 9:24 am

    Why would the Russians bother to go to all that effort to “undermine US Democracy”.

    When they can just sit back, and watch the USA do it to themselves!

    • cleangreen 2.1
      17 July 2018 at 9:53 am

      KIT;

      100% correctly said as’ – best view of the day.

    • Siobhan 2.2
      17 July 2018 at 11:00 am

      Exactly.

      The Democrats and their believers need to accept they ran an unlikable candidate with a crappy track record with a bunch of Party rhetoric that just doesn’t wash.
      Not to mention an outrageous and corrupt campaign against a likable Democratic candidate who had the power to win over ‘soft’ Republicans.
      Which is funny given that winning the ‘soft’ vote is what ‘Leftish’ Liberal Parties are all about these days. Anyway. It basically earned them a ‘draw’ in the election with a blustering moron.

      The Democrats lost the Presidency, The House and the Senate.
      And as awesomely cunning as Putin’s fb posts and emojis might have been, and as brilliant as ‘The Russians’ are with Psy Ops and mind control over a whole Nation, the reality is they are just not that cunning.

    • Bill 2.3
      17 July 2018 at 12:22 pm

      Way I see it is that some “intelligence” services produced screeds of toilet paper from a big ol’ conjecture machine and media took it as a signal to start shitting. And as we all know, there’s no shit without…nah, mixed metaphor. Anyway…

      this Guardian headline had me laughing (I think I was meant to be quietly outraged?)

      Trump shows he trusts an ex-KGB agent more than US intelligence

      Well, no shit! – given the glorious track record of lies, deceit, bullshit and fantasy from the US intelligence community….

      Also agreeing with comments made by Brutus Iscariot elsewhere in this thread.

      Now about that bottle of toxin found in the UK. Anyone want to lay money on it being a perfume bottle? Thrown away by….go on, guess who 😉

      edit – there was an Israeli report pointing out the sheer number of dodgy fb accounts held by a guy in Greece. (No action taken by US Admin) I downloaded it but have since lost it due to this damned computer crashing and burning. But I’m sure anyone interested can find it again.

      • JohnSelway 2.3.1
        17 July 2018 at 12:45 pm

        Yeah, because Russia and the KGB have such a great track record of honestly and respectively.

        USA bad =\= Russia good

        • adam 2.3.1.1
          17 July 2018 at 12:50 pm

          Blindly pro american no matter what ah John Selway. If your not for us, you’re against us. Grass is green so pick the winning side.

          What other exclusionary, no room to move – comments can I come up with I wonder….

          • JohnSelway 2.3.1.1.1
            17 July 2018 at 1:02 pm

            I have never stated anything that would make me pro-American.

            Not trusting Russia or Putin =\= pro-American

            • adam 2.3.1.1.1.1
              17 July 2018 at 1:15 pm

              Sheesh, miss the point why don’t you. I said you made an exclusionary comment, and that they are simple to make. How about you don’t, and give people room to move in their comments, rather than have to respond to your attempts to shut down debate by making exclusionary comments.

              “USA bad =\= Russia good”

              Too soon??!?

              • JohnSelway …
                17 July 2018 at 1:18 pm

                I’m shutting down debate now? Goodness me dear – you are precious.

                • adam …
                  17 July 2018 at 1:23 pm

                  Go have a cup of tea, it might help.

                  • JohnSelway …
                    17 July 2018 at 1:26 pm

                    I’d still like you to point out how I have been “blindly pro-American”

                    (Hint – not trusting the KGB or Putin isn’t pro-American any more than disliking rugby league makes me blindly pro-sycronised swimming)

                    • adam …
                      17 July 2018 at 1:49 pm

                      For the love of pineapple lumps.

                      It was hydroboil to make a point, not to say you were blindly pro american. Did I have to put /sarc in front – did you miss it was way over the top?

                      I did think “Grass is green so pick the winning side.” was the dead give away.

        • Bill 2.3.1.2
          17 July 2018 at 2:54 pm

          Making an observation around the trustworthiness of US intelligence agencies isn’t an observation about the trustworthiness of Russian intelligence agencies.

          The Guardian is being utterly ridiculous in suggesting that only a loon or some-such would believe the leader of the Russian Federation over the US intelligence services because (this is the implication contained in the headline) the US intelligence services are impeccable/trustworthy/paragons of virtue and higher morality.

          Now. I don’t get subjected to whatever propaganda crap the Russian Federation drowns people in. I get subjected to the propaganda crap that western populations are meant to drown in. So that’s what I comment on, and that’s what provides much of the basis for any informed or mis-informed opinions or thoughts or bias I may have 😉

          • Ed 2.3.1.2.1
            17 July 2018 at 2:58 pm

            The Guardian has become a virulent supporter of neocon foreign policy.
            The liberal left now wants war.

    • JohnSelway 2.4
      17 July 2018 at 12:31 pm

      It’s not just undermining democracy – it’s about undermining the USA. Who benefits from Trump breaking up with NATO and distancing the US from Europe?

      Russia must be tickled shitless with trumps idiocy

      • McFlock 2.4.1
        17 July 2018 at 12:57 pm

        Not to mention also weakening China and maybe even Canada through trade wars.

        Even the shit the trumpists have confessed to must count as one of the most cost-effective intelligence operations in history.

      • Morrissey 2.4.2
        17 July 2018 at 2:07 pm

        NATO is like ICE. It should be disbanded.

        • Stuart Munro 2.4.2.1
          17 July 2018 at 3:41 pm

          Why – you want the tanks rolling west again? Most Nato members don’t – and why would they? The soviet empire was ruthless and dysfunctional, and Putin’s ‘last bullet’ speeches show he hasn’t learned a thing.

          • Ed 2.4.2.1.1
            17 July 2018 at 4:06 pm

            Are you insane?

            • Bewildered 2.4.2.1.1.1
              17 July 2018 at 4:25 pm

              Takes one to know one as saying goes

            • Stuart Munro 2.4.2.1.1.2
              17 July 2018 at 4:55 pm

              Have you no argument whatsoever Ed, that you must fall back on ad hom?

            • Brutus Iscariot 2.4.2.1.1.3
              18 July 2018 at 10:11 am

              Reds under the bed right?

              • Stuart Munro …
                18 July 2018 at 11:22 am

                If the long list of those done to death by Putin, including the likes of Politkovskaya and Nemtsov, isn’t reason to be cautious of him I’m not sure what is.

          • Liberal Realist 2.4.2.1.2
            17 July 2018 at 4:26 pm

            Stuck in the past there Stuart? There is no more ‘Soviet empire’, hasn’t been since 1991.

            NATO became redundant when the Warsaw Pact disbanded and the Soviet Union broke up.

            The Russian Federation isn’t a threat to Europe, or anyone for that matter. They want to trade with Europe, not invade.

            • Stuart Munro 2.4.2.1.2.1
              17 July 2018 at 4:57 pm

              If only that were true.

              Chechenya would say different. So would Georgia and Ukraine.

              Putin is an invading imperialist without even the wretched figleaf of pretending to Marxist values.

              • KJT …
                17 July 2018 at 6:34 pm

                You mean those places on Russia’s border, where the US are helping to install fascist dictatorships, as buffer States.

                • Stuart Munro …
                  17 July 2018 at 6:41 pm

                  Chechenya at least was nothing to do with the US – you need a better generalization if you mean to do more than flaunt your prejudice.

                  • KJT …
                    17 July 2018 at 6:53 pm

                    You think.

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      17 July 2018 at 7:05 pm

                      Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

                      The US was busy with Bush’s invasions at the time. Otherwise they’d have had quite a lot to say about the Russians killing half the population of a country.

                    • Ed …
                      17 July 2018 at 7:38 pm

                      Like the way they massacred so much of Korea, Iraq and Vietnam’s population?

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      17 July 2018 at 8:00 pm

                      @ Ed

                      “Like the way they massacred so much of Korea, Iraq and Vietnam’s population?”

                      Not relevant to Chechenya – but I appreciate your flailing – it shows you want to win the argument without actually being bothered learning the facts of each situation.

                      The Korean war is unusual in that the US didn’t start it. The presumption was that, given a fait accompli, the US would not intervene. The odd combination of the resistance of the Daegu pocket and Russia absenting itself from the UN reversed the outcome of the till then largely successful invasion. Students of history note that North Korea’s lack of naval presence in the China sea meant their forces could not be resupplied or reinforced so that prolonging of the conflict, as with Germany in Russia, was against their interests.

                      Iraq is unquestionably America’s fault. If someone else was massacring civilians on that scale the US would certainly condemn it. Unless they were a client. They have condemned Assad for example: US denounces failure to implement ceasefire in Eastern Ghouta during UN Security Council meeting. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/02/condemns-syria-contempt-ghouta-attack-continues-180228184933080.html

                      It’s fair to say that the US did condemn the Vietnam war – it got to the point of causing civil unrest in the US, which Iraq sadly never did.

                      None of which excuse Putin’s murder of half the Chechen population for a moment of course.

                    • Ed …
                      17 July 2018 at 8:02 pm

                      You need to volunteer for the war you so keenly want with Russia.
                      Please don’t force others to fight or die on your behalf.

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      17 July 2018 at 8:19 pm

                      @ Ed

                      There’s obviously too much work to be done here in NZ rooting out fifth columnists like yourself. The last time I left this place to it’s own devices Roger Douglas stole everything that wasn’t nailed down.

                      But don’t let me stop you from signing up to fight for your totalitarian dictator of choice.

                      You pitiful dupe.

                    • KJT …
                      18 July 2018 at 9:55 am

                      I have no more time for Putin, than i have for Trump.

                      But, Russia has plenty of historical reasons to fear invasion from the West.

                      Plenty of evidence of American meddling on Russia’s borders.

                      And the USA will cheerfully support the most ruthless Dictatorships, including installing them initially, so long as they support US commerce, the petro dollar and annoy Russia. There is a long list.

                      As for complaining about murdering half the population. The USA and their client States are pretty effective at that themselves. Yemen and Gaza being just two recent examples.

                  • One Two …
                    17 July 2018 at 9:32 pm

                    “Flaunting prejudice” you say, Stuart…

                    Your glasshouse is extra large…

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      17 July 2018 at 11:09 pm

                      You’re a fine one to talk.

                      My views are based on facts.

                      Yours stand on a firm foundation of whimsy.

              • Tricledrown …
                17 July 2018 at 10:55 pm

                Pootin. Just another imperialist Dictator
                Trump a treasonous Dick Traitor!

              • D'Esterre …
                18 July 2018 at 12:16 am

                Stuart Munro: “Chechenya would say different. So would Georgia and Ukraine.

                Putin is an invading imperialist without even the wretched figleaf of pretending to Marxist values.”

                You’ve attempted to make this assertion before; it is wrong and you’ve been called out on it, with an explanation as to why it’s wrong. It’s still wrong: repeating it doesn’t make it right.

                If you believe that Putin is the problem in Russia, you have absolutely no idea at all about what’s going on in politics there.

                • Stuart Munro …
                  18 July 2018 at 11:24 am

                  Bold assertions D’Esterre, but they are mere prejudices loitering without means of support.

                  Substantiate your claim or flaunt your ignorance elsewhere.

          • D'Esterre 2.4.2.1.3
            18 July 2018 at 12:08 am

            Stuart Munro: “you want the tanks rolling west again?”

            Say what? The previous time would’ve been when?

            Now that the Warsaw Pact no longer exists, there is no point to NATO. I remind you, moreover,that the Warsaw Pact was established in the mid-1950s,following the founding of NATO in the late 1940s.

            The trajectory of invasion has over the centuries come from Europe to Russia, not the other way about. Russian people know this very well; the Warsaw Pact was a defensive move in response to NATO.

            While he was on the campaign trail, Trump questioned the continued existence of NATO. Once elected, he wished to disestablish it. However, it appears the Washington Establishment wouldn’t let him – more’s the pity – so instead he is now demanding that NATO members pay their fair share of defence.

            • Stuart Munro 2.4.2.1.3.1
              18 July 2018 at 11:30 am

              “The previous time would’ve been when?”

              Since you have not been paying attention, Russian tanks were certainly rolling in 2014. That was when the Russian BUK shot down MH17. BUKs accompany Russian tank units to protect them from ground attacking aircraft. “Separatists” never possess either tanks or Buks – they cannot afford them, nor do they have the industrial capacity to make them. They were supplied, along with fully trained crews by Russia, as part of its de facto invasion of the Ukraine.

        • cleangreen 2.4.2.2
          17 July 2018 at 8:25 pm

          Morrissey 2.4.2
          NATO is run by Jens Stoltenberg the son of a suspected NAZi as the family came from East Prussia (Bradenberg) in North Germany and his father was involved in Norway sending jews to the German gas chambers during WW2.

          Then later his son was born there in 1959 and was Prime Minister before taking over NATO as General Secretary so he obviously got a big push from the secret underground Nazi movement we can see..

          How could a German be easily running Norway?

          • joe90 2.4.2.2.1
            17 July 2018 at 8:30 pm

            his father was involved in Norway sending jews to the German gas chambers during WW2.

            You really are a lying piece of shit.

            *spit*

            Thorvald Stoltenberg (8 July 1931 – 13 July 2018) was a Norwegian politician. His ancestors stemmed from Tønsberg. He served as Minister of Defence (1979–81) and Minister of Foreign Affairs (1987–1989 and 1990–1993) in two Labour governments.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorvald_Stoltenberg

          • Tricledrown 2.4.2.2.2
            17 July 2018 at 11:45 pm

            Clean green you haven’t got any proof
            Besides he was only 9 yrs old when war broke out.
            Maybe you have the wrong person

  3. Brutus Iscariot 3
    17 July 2018 at 9:35 am

    Peace and de-escalation of tensions between nuclear powers, is generally something that most reasonable people (and certainly, historically the left) should hail.

    Personal animus towards Trump shouldn’t outweigh the fact that he’s pulling the bandaid off some pretty ugly stuff in the international area – in this case the morally and intellectually bankrupt consensus aggressive US foreign policy, of previous bipartisan consensus.

    If Putin wanted Trump to win, it’s not because he likes him, it’s rational self interest to prefer that another country be led by someone who isn’t determined to grind your (and every other) country’s face in the dirt.

    • Infused 3.1
      17 July 2018 at 9:49 am

      Pretty much this. And nk. Everyone’s shut up about that now haven’t they.

      Hillary’s emails were pushed using a pretty common phishing attempt by a hacking group.

      End of the day dosent matter what trump does he will be what on by all.

    • mickysavage 3.2
      17 July 2018 at 9:55 am

      Trump is no pacifist despite what he has said recently.

      • Brutus Iscariot 3.2.1
        17 July 2018 at 10:17 am

        No, but he’s not ideological in the sense that the American Exceptionalists are. For a US President to admit that his own country has undertaken “foolish actions”, i find monumentally refreshing.

        Because Trump is a businessman, i think it actually gives him some sort of clarity on the fact that the other side will often have reasonable interests. On the other hand, there’s no give and take with those who believe it’s America’s duty to dominate the world (ideologically, financially, or militarily).

        • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1.1
          17 July 2018 at 3:25 pm

          Business people are, IMO, inherently not nationalistic as being so would decrease their profits. But they will use nationalistic and even localistic language to get locals to support them.

          This is known as lying.

    • Ed 3.3
      17 July 2018 at 1:49 pm

      Well said.

  4. marty mars 4
    17 July 2018 at 9:35 am

    T.rump has just painted a big bullseye on his back and it won’t be the pinkos, lefties, dems or progressives firing it imo.

    He is playing the game the way he did business – study that and the babyman is transparent.

  5. Brutus Iscariot 5
    17 July 2018 at 9:41 am

    We’ve come full circle – the New Zealand left has gone full neocon. Dick Cheney would be proud.

    • adam 5.1
      17 July 2018 at 12:57 pm

      What a stupid comment. Really just dumb from that commentator. The ad hominion is used, becasue there is no way to rationally argue with a comment that stupid.

    • Ed 5.2
      17 July 2018 at 1:50 pm

      Sadly the Blairite disease has infected our left wing body politic .
      Iraq didn’t teach these armchair warriors any lessons.

  6. Anne 6
    17 July 2018 at 10:41 am

    When Putin fronts up to Trump and “strongly” denies he had anything to do with the Russian hacking of the US Dems he would have come across as totally genuine. That’s because it probably was genuine. Neither he nor his political colleagues would have been in the loop precisely so they could plead plausible deniability. The culprits would have been well down the ladder of seniority and would have known what was expected of them without having to be told.

    I’m not defending the fruitcake in the White House. Putin outclasses Trump by a country mile in the IQ stakes. If he told Trump the world was flat Trump would believe him.

    • xanthe 6.1
      17 July 2018 at 4:05 pm

      In the case of NO EVIDENCE produced and putin denies then the only proper thing for Trump to do is to take him at his word ,…. had there been any actual evidence then he maby could have pushed on that but there isn’t ! in this case Trump has acted correctly…. SHOW US SOME EVIDENCE MSM

      • Ed 6.1.1
        17 July 2018 at 4:11 pm

        Yes we are still waiting for evidence from Skripal poisoning in Salisbury as well!!!

      • lprent 6.1.2
        17 July 2018 at 4:33 pm

        Why are you asking the MSM? Not their job to produce evidence. Evidence is what you produce in court.

        Which by the sound of it, Mueller is working towards.

        • One Two 6.1.2.1
          17 July 2018 at 5:55 pm

          ‘Working to ‘produce’ evidence…

          Fabricating, would be closer the mark…

          • Tricledrown 6.1.2.1.1
            17 July 2018 at 10:42 pm

            12 so how come all of Trumps men have fallen on their swords except Manafort who is in jail (given you have to have committed a very serious crime to be held with out bail)
            That’s where your argument fails give your self an uppercut 12.

        • xanthe 6.1.2.2
          17 July 2018 at 6:52 pm

          “Working towards” ….. so for now we accept Putins word because that is actually all we have.

          And Trump was correct to accept Putins word untill some actual evidence is produced.

  7. Brigid 7
    17 July 2018 at 10:43 am

    Make of this what you will

    George M Nasif
    ‏ @GeorgeMNasif
    Replying to @realDonaldTrump

    I have the Server Donald. I have everything you need to bury the DNC forever. Come and get it. Russia was never involved. Obama was the culprit, along with the UK Mi5 and 6 who wired Trump Tower 5th and 26 floors. I have the documents from the UK and USA signed by Susan Rice

    https://twitter.com/GeorgeMNasif/status/1018256787986776064

  8. Brigid 8
    17 July 2018 at 11:05 am

    “If Comey thought there was any credibility whatsoever in the DNC allegations that their servers had been hacked by Russians (or any other hostile foreign entity) posing a potential “National Security threat” why didn’t Comey subpoena the servers so that the FBI could do a proper analysis?”

    http://ian56.blogspot.com/2018/07/we-100-know-that-russians-did-not-hack.html

  9. cleangreen 9
    17 July 2018 at 12:02 pm

    If it smells like a ‘stitch up then it probaby is”

    (Conspiracy to Commit an Offense Against the United States)

    1. In or around 2016, the Russian Federation (“Russia”) operated a military intelligence
    agency called the Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff (“GRU”). The GRU had multiple units, including. Units 26165 and 74455, engaged in cyber operations that involved the staged releases of documents stolen through computer intrusions. These units conducted largescale cyber operations to interfere with the 2016 US. presidential election.

    Pity none of these emails were any of Hillary Clintons (self deliberate destuction) of her illegal 30 000 emails at the time she was ordered to hand them over to the FBI/CIA/NSA??????
    She must surely also be indited shouldn’t she??

    Oh wait a minute!!!!! – she was in Government at the time as “secretary of state’ so she is certainly being also ‘very smelly’ to me too.

    Hillary Clinton = ‘one rule for me and no one else’.

    • Anne 9.1
      17 July 2018 at 12:25 pm

      – she was in Government at the time as “secretary of state’ so she is certainly being also ‘very smelly’ to me too.

      Hillary Clinton = ‘one rule for me and no one else’.

      Didn’t the FBI search through those 30,000 emails with a fine tooth comb – twice – and found nothing illegal? She was found to have been lax on occasion by using the account for personal messaging which she apparently should not have done. Hillary Clinton said she wasn’t aware of the ruling at the time and apologised for her mistake. Is that a crime of major proportions?

      Whatever anyone might think of Hillary Clinton as a person, these vitriolic attacks – based on proven false claims – is becoming more and more pathetic. If she had been guilty she would have been indicted by now.

      • JohnSelway 9.1.1
        17 July 2018 at 12:34 pm

        I can’t believe how many people are still playing the “but Clinton” card 2 fucking years later. She isn’t the president, Trump is.

        • adam 9.1.1.1
          17 July 2018 at 1:01 pm

          Be nice if the h.r.c supports actually accepted she lost.

          Note before some retard jumps in saying I supported trump, I supported Jill Stein and still do. Because that’s the thing, they have to win your vote, not act like they deserve it.

          • JohnSelway 9.1.1.1.1
            17 July 2018 at 1:03 pm

            Who are you talking to? Who is a Clinton supporter?

            Don’t think anyone has supported Clinton here. And she’s not even president or running anything so who gives a fuck

            • adam 9.1.1.1.1.1
              17 July 2018 at 1:11 pm

              Good, so get over the fact she might actually get mentioned in a post about trump. Al Gore got mentioned a lot with Bush too.

              • JohnSelway …
                17 July 2018 at 1:14 pm

                there is a difference between mentioning Clinton and using Clinton as a misdirection to the dumb shit trump is up to.

                This isn’t very hard Adam

                • adam …
                  17 July 2018 at 1:22 pm

                  Is it a misdirection, or more of the dumb shit people have been throwing around on both sides.

                  The facts are trump is president, trump is a dick, and the tactics by many to attack trump look suspiciously like the tactics used to attack h.r.c.

                  Same shit, different day?

                  • JohnSelway …
                    17 July 2018 at 1:30 pm

                    Except for the fact Trunp is the president and not Clinton and Clinton hasn’t been running anything for over 2 years.

                    Also trump keeps talking and his admin keeps on quitting or getting indicted so a bit different. Can you see the difference?

                    • adam …
                      17 July 2018 at 1:46 pm

                      So after two years where is the indictment on trump? If you want to shut down the comparisons, then charge trump. Otherwise this is going to carry on.

                      By the way I’m no fan of bring up h.r.c., but the longer no one charges trump with anything, the longer we get to hear about her.

                      I’d argue the resignations mean nothing, just more flames to the trump theater.

                    • JohnSelway …
                      17 July 2018 at 5:26 pm

                      Just because no one has indicted Trump personally doesn’t exonerate him or his campaign. The probe isn’t about indicting Trump personally but to investigate Russian influence and illegality concerning his campaign and team.

                      And Muller has already secured a multitude of guilty pleas. This isn’t an investigation solely about Trump you know. Trump could be innocent of everything and just a fall guy – doesn’t mean his handlers arent guilty as sin

                    • McFlock …
                      17 July 2018 at 5:32 pm

                      @johnselway
                      I sleep happy in the knowledge that even if Trump is a useful imbecile and it’s the corrupt people all around him who are the problem, he’s still so egotistical that he’d probably plead guilty rather than plead stupidity…

                    • Andre …
                      17 July 2018 at 5:42 pm

                      @adam Mueller is most likely operating under current Justice Department guidelines. Which holds that indictments and/or prosecution of the sitting president would be unconstitutional.

                      https://www.justice.gov/olc/opinion/sitting-president%E2%80%99s-amenability-indictment-and-criminal-prosecution

                    • joe90 …
                      17 July 2018 at 5:44 pm

                      So after two years where is the indictment on trump?

                      Patience, grasshopper, patience….

                      https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/atd-indictments-0514.png?w=575

                    • adam …
                      17 July 2018 at 5:54 pm

                      Andre, Oh great so we are stuck with h.r.c comments as comparisons for the next two years- at least. So much fun that is going to be. (please read with your sarcastic voice)

                      JohnSelway, I know – but at this point it is frustrating in it’s lack of clarity. I’m also very weary of Muller, as he the guy that lied to get the war started with Iraq.

                      I expect this mud sling to carry on for a very long time.

                      That said, I’m a fan of attacking the current administration for the bad it has done. Rather than making trump a boogie man.

                      The fact that the majority of people don’t get how bad the tax cuts for the rich is for ordinary people – is mind blowing. Whilst we are arguing over this rubbish, they push through more policy to expand their sickening powers, crush everyday people and fight more wars. It’s an odd time to be living in.

                    • adam …
                      17 July 2018 at 5:57 pm

                      joe 90, I wish I had it – painence that is, but the crap that is happen to friends in the US is getting to breaking point. Especially over medicare and medicaid.

                    • Tricledrown …
                      17 July 2018 at 9:00 pm

                      Adam you are very nigh eve.
                      It took 6 yrs before Nixon resigned so he wouldn’t be impeached.
                      Trump has only been in power for 19 months and the noose is tightening.
                      The closer they get to impeachment the more unpredictable Trump is becoming.
                      The Dead cat flops get more absurd.

                    • In Vino …
                      18 July 2018 at 5:24 pm

                      ‘nigh eve’. I love it!

  10. SPC 10
    17 July 2018 at 12:17 pm

    Who, or what, was the Russian influence that led the Democrat campaign to neglect the rust belt states – the real reason Clinton lost the presidency?

    • Brigid 10.1
      17 July 2018 at 6:03 pm

      I do believe you’ve hit the nail on the head. Trump is Obama’s legacy.

      Trump campaigned on misogyny, racism, bigotry and barefaced lies. Why was the electorate so desperate that they accepted it all without question?

      But also, to be remembered is that if the Dems had given Bernie Sanders preference over Clinton they may have won.

      • cleangreen 10.1.1
        17 July 2018 at 8:36 pm

        Good point brigid,

        If they had run with Bernie Sanders instead of that dumb corporate ‘clingon Clinton’ they would have won hands down so Clinton caused the demos to loose period.

    • Tricledrown 10.2
      17 July 2018 at 10:51 pm

      SPC you forget who has had the hands on the coffers the republican Congress.
      They have given $Trillions to the merchant bankers to bail out their ponzi scheme’s.
      While no money got to main street even the $90 billion that was to help people with mortgages in default ended up in the likes of Peter Thiels (thief’s) hands.
      Get your facts straight

  11. marty mars 11
    17 July 2018 at 12:28 pm

    I’ve noticed some comments on the web saying that the repugs limited outrage about t.rump sucking up to puti shows actually how little the repugs think of pence – remember him? Mr shadow, Mr nobody.

    • adam 11.1
      17 July 2018 at 1:09 pm

      Are you a Pense supporter now marty mars?

      • marty mars 11.1.1
        17 July 2018 at 1:27 pm

        Nah fundies sicken me – seems no one likes him. And that seemed funny to me thus i posted.

        What about you?

        • adam 11.1.1.1
          17 July 2018 at 2:02 pm

          Loath the man.

          A hard fundamentalist who would drag us back to new dark age one bomb at a time.

    • Morrissey 11.2
      17 July 2018 at 2:13 pm

      Marty, the way you’re talking, you’d think that it was Russia backing ISIS and Al Nusra in Syria, that it was Russia backing Israel’s depradations in Gaza and the Occupied Territories, that it was Russia backing the forces of fascism in Central and South America, that it was Russia backing the homocidal regimes in the Philippines and Myanmar, that it was Russia backing the notorious Modi regime in India, that it was Russia organizing massive military exercises on the North Korean border every year, that it was…

      Oh good Lord, you don’t actually believe it, do you?

  12. OnceWasTim 12
    17 July 2018 at 1:04 pm

    I don’t really like popcorn but I’ve considered stuffing a shitload down my throat as I watch all the media machinations.
    The simple answer MAY well be what a lot of people are wondering. i.e. What is it that Vlad has over The Don?
    Vlad plays Chess, The Don plays Dominoes.
    Both have bloody big egos.
    Both are psychopaths – or at least sociopaths.
    One has a little man complex, the other a lumbering great fast-food-fed oxen full of shit.
    One shows off by riding a horse bare-breasted, the other by use of the fake tan,, comb-over and trophy wife
    One probably reads a high reading on the IQ scale, the other …. jeeze, I’m still wondering.

    Dangerous times when it comes to an exercise of egos, but they’ll probably both get their comeuppance – more likely The Don before The Vlad.
    Let’s just hope its before one has the opportunity to get near a button

  13. peterh 13
    17 July 2018 at 1:20 pm

    And Dotcom was saying, 6 months before it happened. he was going to get dirt on Hilary. and has said a hundred times since it was not Russia, and when are the Trump haters. just once going to give us something they can prove, Trump hit the nail on the head this morning with one word RIDICULOUS

  14. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 14
    17 July 2018 at 3:03 pm

    I like Donald Trump!

    He’s so deliciously naïve and fuckwittery; he’s so completely self-centred and egotistical, so narcisstic! So lacking in ‘presidential’ ethos.

    He’s made American politics fun again; it’s heart-warming to watch him fucking the country up bigly. Global entertainment! The USA deserves him.

    On the other hand, he also scares the shit out of me. Women’s rights. Climate change, immigration, and so on, he’s taking this planet to hell in a hand-basket.

    Of course Russia didn’t interfere in the Presidential elections – Vlad said so. There, that was simple, wasn’t it! Theresa didn’t take his advice, that’s why she’s in a muddle. Angela needs to spend more on American weapons! And anyway, it’s all Crooked Hillary’s fault, so that’s that!

    The giant baby blimp of Trump is far closer to reality than perhaps the protesters imagined.

    • Morrissey 14.1
      17 July 2018 at 3:37 pm

      It’s fun until people start getting hurt.

    • Anne 14.2
      17 July 2018 at 3:38 pm

      Thanks for that TV(not etc.). A nice summation.

      After reading about his latest verbal antics and some of the responses it struck me how hilarious the whole caboodle has become.

      But on the other hand it is getting scarier by the day. His throw-back neanderthal level of mentality is driving the world closer to the brink of disaster. He’s undermining global political leadership and diplomacy everywhere. If it carries on for much longer the thugs of this world will be in control once again!

      • Morrissey 14.2.1
        17 July 2018 at 3:39 pm

        the thugs of this world will be in control once again!

        The thugs had been in control for long before Trump arrived.

        • Ed 14.2.1.1
          17 July 2018 at 4:04 pm

          Thugs like Cheney.

        • lprent 14.2.1.2
          17 July 2018 at 4:42 pm

          the thugs of this world will be in control once again!

          The thugs had been in control for long before Trump arrived.

          Indisputably. However they were generally smarter than the orange dimwit. They certainly lied better. And (with the obvious exception of Russia under Putin and his acolytes) they seldom tried to bullshit on the basis of plausible deniability. That is to say the art of making sure that everyone with any brains knew that they had done it, while making sure that their useful idiots have a teeny weeny figleaf to hide their truth shriveled genitalia denability.

          Personally I find that anyone who is willing to go to significiant effort to hide their thuggishness far more bearable than the obvious stupidly obvious lying from the Russians and their acolytes in Turkey and Israel or just the incompetence of Trump. For a starter they have to get their story coherent and straight. This severely constrains their ability to do crap and to expect to get away with it. Neither Russia or Trump exert such effort. Instead they simply keep repeating the same obvious crap over and over again defying others to provide ‘proof’, while at the same time squirming with alternative theories for their shitheads true believers being cast off like maggots of contamination. It is incredibly lazy and definitely not worth the effort.

          BTW: I always find it weird the way you always provide room for the straight line – please now provide the comedy.

        • cleangreen 14.2.1.3
          17 July 2018 at 8:41 pm

          100% correct morrissey Thugs now firmly run the world..

  15. Brutus Iscariot 15
    17 July 2018 at 3:56 pm

    Let’s be clear. If you oppose this summit, you are:

    – promoting war
    – promoting global military spending (yes, it’s a logical conclusion)
    – promoting military interventionism and America’s role as self-righteous global policeman

    Those are the logical conclusions of a fully fledged “tough on Russia/China/Syria/Iran” etc etc stance, which will require more of just about everything apart from that which benefits the average punter.

    Anyone who endorses the view of the OP, is morally and intellectually bankrupt, in the sense that they stand for nothing apart from “not-Trump”, and aren’t capable of a rational deconstruction of policy.

    It’s pretty easy to envision an alternate reality in which President Sanders is undertaking a similar policy of rapproachment with traditional (and unnecessary) foes, winding back military commitments globally etc.

    The MSM can also spare us the flagellation around “offending friends and allies”. The collective EU military (even in its current diminished state) easily has the means to defend continental Europe from conventional attack from Russia (whose own military spending is 1/10th that of the US). NATO is simply redundant in this context. What’s terrifying to the establishment is that Europe might reconcile with Russia of their own accord without the US standing menacingly behind them, and Boeing/Lockheed Martin/EADS won’t have a bogeyman to justify selling hardware to protect against (China and Europe being on good terms).

    I thought we learned all this from watching the reign of Bush Jr?

    • Ed 15.1
      17 July 2018 at 4:01 pm

      Thank you for your excellent r summation of the points.

      • xanthe 15.1.1
        17 July 2018 at 4:09 pm

        Yup

      • cleangreen 15.1.2
        17 July 2018 at 8:45 pm

        Brutus Iscariot;

        Yes thanks for clarifying the issue so clearly for us all.

        Perhaps NATO can then put al;l their war toys away again since trump has ‘de-fused the Russia/US/NATO flareup.

    • SPC 15.2
      17 July 2018 at 5:14 pm

      The Donald is a big promoter of more military spending, by the USA, by NATO, by Japan and South Korea.

      He wants a new space division of the US Defence forces.

    • Tricledrown 16.1
      17 July 2018 at 11:06 pm

      Stuart Munro the Atlantic sums up that Trumps behavior matches the claims made against him Putins Puppet a useful “Tool”.

      • Stuart Munro 16.1.1
        17 July 2018 at 11:37 pm

        Someone made a sign that read:

        Twinkle twinkle little Czar, Putin made you what you are.

        Seemed to fit.

  17. Andre 17
    17 July 2018 at 5:33 pm

    Here’s an argument that Fuckface von Clownstick is so enamored of Pootee simply because Pootee is the real thing, exactly what Tangerine Tinyhands aspires to be (but knows he’s never gonna actually make it).

    ” … In the meantime, it’s worth considering a less sexy explanation.

    It goes something like this: Trump and Putin share some of the same politics. They are, ideologically, allies. Their views on what makes for a good leader and citizen are fundamentally the same. Neither sees a loyal political opposition or free press as in any way valuable; rather, they view them as enemies. Both openly agitate against them. Putin routinely goes further.

    The chaos, or feeling of it, that Trump creates in his speeches and in press conferences like the one in Helsinki can obscure this. For all the twists and turns in his rhetoric, sometimes within the space of a few sentences, his actions almost always end up pointing in the same direction.

    Toward illiberalism.

    Toward nationalism.

    Toward authoritarians and authoritarianism.

    And away from the post-war liberal order.

    As he made clear over the last week or so, NATO for Trump is essentially a protection racket. The European Union is a leading geopolitical foe.”

    https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/16/politics/why-trump-treats-putin-this-way/index.html

  18. joe90 18
    17 July 2018 at 5:45 pm

    Thread.

    .@ScottWalker with arrested Russian nationalist and @NRA lifetime member Maria Butina. pic.twitter.com/eNBC00WzUZ— Shannon Watts (@shannonrwatts) July 16, 2018

    https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts/status/1018989033534382086

  19. mauī 19
    17 July 2018 at 5:51 pm

    The Russians meddled using puppies…
    https://youtu.be/GiZnJd0yWaI?t=379

    followed by pokemon…
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW4ARP7lgvs

    and afterward whole swathes of the left lost their minds…

  20. Ed 20
    17 July 2018 at 7:36 pm

    Quite a few armchair warriors on this thread should put on their tin hats and volunteer for action in East Ukraine.
    They should not be expecting others to do their dirty work.

  21. Stuart Munro 21
    17 July 2018 at 7:41 pm

    Trevor Noah breaks it down:

    • Ed 21.1
      17 July 2018 at 7:49 pm

      The Daily Show would say that.
      As Brutus Iscariot so congently put it above….

      “Let’s be clear. If you oppose this summit, you are:

      – promoting war
      – promoting global military spending (yes, it’s a logical conclusion)
      – promoting military interventionism and America’s role as self-righteous global policeman

      Those are the logical conclusions of a fully fledged “tough on Russia/China/Syria/Iran” etc etc stance, which will require more of just about everything apart from that which benefits the average punter.”

      • SPC 21.1.1
        17 July 2018 at 7:56 pm

        Er but Trump was a participant and he promotes increased military spending. And Putin is not reducing Russian defence spending either.

        • Ed 21.1.1.1
          17 July 2018 at 7:57 pm

          And talking peace is bad?
          Again to quote Brutus.

          “Peace and de-escalation of tensions between nuclear powers, is generally something that most reasonable people (and certainly, historically the left) should hail.

          Personal animus towards Trump shouldn’t outweigh the fact that he’s pulling the bandaid off some pretty ugly stuff in the international area – in this case the morally and intellectually bankrupt consensus aggressive US foreign policy, of previous bipartisan consensus.”

          • SPC 21.1.1.1.1
            17 July 2018 at 8:11 pm

            This is the same Trump who wants NATO to double the increase for defence spending from 2 to 4%.

            The same Trump who claims implementing the Obama era plan for the modernisation of their nuclear capability is his own achievement – and who has never signalled any desire to engage in nuclear reduction talks with Russia.

            The same Trump who asked his officials why they could not “Panama/Grenada” Venezuela?

            The same Trump engaged in trade wars with Canada, Mexico, China and EU – and sundry others impacted by abandonment of WTO rules by the USA.

            The same Trump who has torn up the agreement with Iran and moved the embassy to Jerusalem, left the UNHRC cut funding to the PA and walked away from the Paris agreement.

            Militarising space?

            • Ed 21.1.1.1.1.1
              17 July 2018 at 8:17 pm

              Not a defender of Trump
              Simply repeating Brutus’s words.
              Give peace a chance.

              • cleangreen …
                17 July 2018 at 8:51 pm

                Yes;
                ” give peace a chance” ‘otherwise prepare your childen to go off to war.

                Reality check folks.

          • Stuart Munro 21.1.1.1.2
            17 July 2018 at 8:12 pm

            Putin is someone to sup with with a long spoon.

            Trump is completely out of his league, giving pretty much free rein to some very dodgy actions. He can’t run US/Russia foreign policy effectively because he has no boundaries himself. He won’t draw a line over spying or electoral interference or erosions of eastern European boundaries. History will show imperial creep during the Trump/Putin period, and it is the populations of bordering states who will pay the price.

            • Ed 21.1.1.1.2.1
              17 July 2018 at 8:16 pm

              Eastern Ukraine needs you.

              • Stuart Munro …
                17 July 2018 at 8:20 pm

                Putin doesn’t need you at all – he has hordes of equally stupid followers.

            • Tricledrown 21.1.1.1.2.2
              17 July 2018 at 11:12 pm

              Arms sales are the only other Motive
              Given the US is the largest exporter.
              He has lambasted Nato and Praised Putin.
              Trump is running with the hares and hunting with the hounds and given he has managed to turn Melania he doesn’t want any P tapes ruining his lies no wonder he is sucking up to Putin.

  22. Ed 22
    17 July 2018 at 8:04 pm

    Craig Murray’s nails it.

    “The entire “liberal” media and political establishment of the Western world reveals its militarist, authoritarian soul today with the screaming and hysterical attacks on the very prospect of detente with Russia. Peace apparently is a terrible thing; a renewed arms race, with quite literally trillions of dollars pumped into the military industrial complex and hundreds of thousands dying in proxy wars, is apparently the “liberal” stance.

    Political memories are short, but just 15 years after Iraq was destroyed and the chain reaction sent most of the Arab world back to the dark ages, it is now “treason” to question the word of the Western intelligence agencies, which deliberately and knowingly produced a fabric of lies on Iraqi WMD to justify that destruction.

    It would be more rational for it to be treason for leaders to blindly accept the word of the intelligence services.

    The war-hawks who were devastated by the loss of champion killer Hillary now see the prospect of their very worst fear coming true. Their very worst fear is the outbreak of peace and international treaties of arms control. Hence the media and political establishment today has reached peaks of hysteria never before seen. Pursuing peace is “treason” and the faux left now stand starkly exposed.”

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/07/detente-bad-cold-war-good/

    • Stuart Munro 22.1
      17 July 2018 at 8:13 pm

      Craig Murray has never nailed anything in his life – except his colours to Putin’s mast.

      • Ed 22.1.1
        17 July 2018 at 8:15 pm

        Shoot the messenger, why don’t you?
        Have you enlisted yet?

        • Stuart Munro 22.1.1.1
          17 July 2018 at 8:21 pm

          You are not a messenger Ed – you’re a fucking parrot.

          Make a real argument beyond copying and pasting for once in your trivial life.

          • cleangreen 22.1.1.1.1
            17 July 2018 at 8:59 pm

            Whow; Stuart; – wait on will you.

            Are you o/k as I have not seen you so worked up as you are right now?

            Look! let it go and relax; – and let trump do his work his way.

            The media has a very biased view of everything right now and I dont even believe what they are whipping up rigjht now.

            Chill out please.

            • mauī 22.1.1.1.1.1
              17 July 2018 at 9:41 pm

              I believe he is showing signs of PTDS – Pooty-Trump Derangement Syndrome.

              • Stuart Munro …
                17 July 2018 at 10:54 pm

                Yeah but then you believe Ed.

                • Ed …
                  17 July 2018 at 10:56 pm

                  From twitter.

                  “Trump talks to North Korea and the press hate him,
                  Trump talks to and get on with Putin and the press hate him, maybe the problem is not Trump but the press and those who want constant war.”

                  • Stuart Munro …
                    17 July 2018 at 10:59 pm

                    Why do the press hate him Ed?

                    Trump throws children in prison and the press hate him.
                    Trump calls his allies foes and the press hate him.
                    Trump conspires to pervert the course of an election and the press hate him.

                    All perfectly good reasons.

                    • Ed …
                      17 July 2018 at 11:04 pm

                      I do not like Trump.
                      Where have I or others said that.
                      What I have said is encapsulated by Brutus’s statement.

                      “Peace and de-escalation of tensions between nuclear powers, is generally something that most reasonable people (and certainly, historically the left) should hail.
                      Personal animus towards Trump shouldn’t outweigh the fact that he’s pulling the bandaid off some pretty ugly stuff in the international area – in this case the morally and intellectually bankrupt consensus aggressive US foreign policy, of previous bipartisan consensus.”

                      and here.

                      “Let’s be clear. If you oppose this summit, you are:

                      – promoting war
                      – promoting global military spending (yes, it’s a logical conclusion)
                      – promoting military interventionism and America’s role as self-righteous global policeman

                      Those are the logical conclusions of a fully fledged “tough on Russia/China/Syria/Iran” etc etc stance, which will require more of just about everything apart from that which benefits the average punter.
                      Anyone who endorses the view of the OP, is morally and intellectually bankrupt, in the sense that they stand for nothing apart from “not-Trump”, and aren’t capable of a rational deconstruction of policy.”

                      Get it?

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      17 July 2018 at 11:13 pm

                      @Ed

                      Wishful thinking isn’t peace, as Chamberlain found out.

                      Putin is a guy who has trouble staying within his borders.

                      Going soft on him will only encourage him.

                    • Ed …
                      17 July 2018 at 11:15 pm

                      So you disagree with Brutus’s summations?

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      18 July 2018 at 12:03 am

                      “So you disagree with Brutus’s summations?”

                      In dealing with Putin one needs to remember that one is dealing with a twenty year plus KGB guy. It’s difficult for many New Zealanders to imagine (thank heavens), but anyone with actual experience of the eastern block can tell you this is no joking matter.

                      At it’s peak the KGB had over 2 million staff. It had broken MI5 (read Peter Wright) and probably parts of the CIA. It turned large numbers of highly intelligent people to the service of a regime that wasn’t very nice.

                      Putin is not someone you can deal with casually.

                      You should notice you’ve been haranguing me to defend the Ukraine – but the only thing the Ukraine needs to be defended against is invading Russians.

                      There is a strong probability that any peace moves Putin makes will be to entrench positions and prepare for his next usurpation. He’d like to be free of sanctions of course, and free rein in Syria.

                      Using assassination or destabilization he can readily restart hostilities deniably, just as he moved troops into the Crimea before annexing it.

              • Tricledrown …
                17 July 2018 at 11:15 pm

                Pee
                Tape
                Soldout
                Disorder

            • Ed 22.1.1.1.1.2
              17 July 2018 at 9:52 pm

              He’s probably had a few shots of vodka to gain the courage to enlist for service in the Donbass.
              The Ukrainian fascist regime will appreciate his support.

            • Stuart Munro 22.1.1.1.1.3
              17 July 2018 at 10:53 pm

              Look if you want to suck up to Trump that’s your business.

              It does demonstrate a want of judgement however.

          • Ed 22.1.1.1.2
            17 July 2018 at 9:48 pm

            You shot the messenger who was Craig Murray.
            I think linking to others’ viewpoints is interesting for many.

            • Stuart Munro 22.1.1.1.2.1
              17 July 2018 at 10:48 pm

              It can be Ed – but you should learn to make real arguments instead of just pasting sold out Putin boosters.

              You keep saying I should volunteer to defend eastern Ukraine.

              Why would I need to do so, if your contention that Putin was a peaceable fellow had any basis in fact?

              The fact is he is an invading imperialist every bit as bad as the US. And the Ukraine really could use a bit of help. You might think about that in between posting your bullshit about Nazis.

            • Stuart Munro 22.1.1.1.2.2
              17 July 2018 at 10:57 pm

              Craig Murray is a lying asshole.

              A messenger for Putin perhaps.

              You come on here, a progressive site, and boost a totalitarian dictator like Putin Ed? Have you no shame? No conscience? No understanding of the falsity of your position?

              Guess not.

              • Ed …
                17 July 2018 at 11:00 pm

                I am proposing peace, like Maui, Draco, Cleangreen, Brutus and many more on this thread.
                It is your hawkish neocon views that do not sit well with an international socialist worldview.

              • Brigid …
                17 July 2018 at 11:16 pm

                If you cared to read Craig Murray’s blog you would know he is a messenger for no one.
                It is your knee jerk Neanderthal ‘Putin/ Assad are monsters’ diatribe that is so tedious.
                Perhaps your words to Ed, “Have you no shame? No conscience? No understanding of the falsity of your position?” could more aptly be applied to you.

                • Stuart Munro …
                  17 July 2018 at 11:17 pm

                  I’ve read him several times – he’s an ill-informed muppet who spins for Putin and has no problem lying his arse off.

                  You’re not long on substance either.

                  • Ed …
                    17 July 2018 at 11:19 pm

                    Based on what evidence is an ex British Ambassador less informed than you ?
                    Based on what evidence can you claim he lies?

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      17 July 2018 at 11:26 pm

                      We had this conversation at some length when he started writing nonsense about the Skripals Ed. Nothing he wrote has proven to be true – but he asserted vociferously that the designation ‘novichok’ was a lie – something he had no way of knowing even had he happened by sheer chance to have been correct.

                      Go back and read the thread if you didn’t understand it – better yet, read the Reuters story – none of Murray’s grandstanding lies, just attribution for every statement. That’s what honest reporting looks like.

                • Ed …
                  17 July 2018 at 11:23 pm

                  It is very hard to debate with Stuart without being subjected to violent abuse.

  23. SPC 23
    17 July 2018 at 8:40 pm

    “To the dwindling few who still profess to believe in this Trump/Putin liaison, it will be seen as being all about forging good relations with Russia, and negating the vested interests of the Deep State (and Crooked Hillary!) in maintaining the antagonisms of yesteryear. WelI, if there were genuine trade-offs involved that might be a defensible argument.”

    http://werewolf.co.nz/2018/07/gordon-campbell-on-the-white-house-romance-with-russia/

  24. Cemetery Jones 24
    17 July 2018 at 11:45 pm

    Hahahaa “There’s no serious person out there who would sugest somehow that you could even…” https://twitter.com/ColumbiaBugle/status/1019026791497805824

  25. Ed 25
    18 July 2018 at 12:03 am

    Caitlin Johnstone Is an independent journalist.
    Here is her perspective.
    I agree with her viewpoint.

    “Opposing talks which could lead to de-escalations between the two countries who own almost all of the nuclear warheads in the world is inexcusable and unforgivable. I don’t care if you’re dumb enough to swallow the US intelligence community’s still completely unsubstantiated claims of Russian hacking. I don’t care if you think Trump is bought and owned by Vladimir Putin. Even if both of those things were true, there would still be no excuse for opposing peace talks in a dangerously escalating new cold war. None.

    Communication and understanding in this situation is an objectively good thing. This meeting with Russia’s leader, which all US presidents have done for many decades, is an objectively good thing. If you have joined in the campaign to help shove the tide of opinion away from peace and toward nuclear holocaust, you are making yourself an enemy of humanity. You have become so warped and demented by your hatred of Donald Trump that it has made a part of you less human.

    I despise Donald Trump and everything he stands for, and I despise everything that created him. I hate that I have to know his ******* name. But he is the only President of the United States right now, and he is in a unique position to help steer us away from the iceberg and avoid a confrontation that everyone on earth should want to avoid. Any possibility of that happening, however remote, should be supported.
    Only assholes and morons oppose these peace talks. If you want to help steer this ship into the iceberg of nuclear holocaust, then I want you thrown overboard. Get a ******* grip, you raving lunatics. Stop this. Stop this immediately.

    https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/peace-talk-between-nuclear-superpowers-offends-americas-assholes-and-morons-14158ef5cade

    • Stuart Munro 25.2
      18 July 2018 at 12:17 am

      “I don’t care if you’re dumb enough to swallow the US intelligence community’s still completely unsubstantiated claims of Russian hacking.”

      In fact there’s quite a lot of evidence. It’s not quite at the point that the election can be attributed to it (Comey’s second statement about Clinton swung it really). But there’s abundant evidence that Russian trolls were actively trying to make things happen, one of which was probably to reinforce the notion that the Clinton emails were something substantial.

      Russia meddles in many elections. There is plenty of evidence from Europe too.

      You can find links Ed, but you need to start sorting them for veracity. You consistently choose the fake or flake sites Russia uses to try to swing the conversation in its favour.

      • Brutus Iscariot 25.2.1
        18 July 2018 at 8:56 am

        You clearly lack historical awareness, recycling the same old arguments made by the US hawks against peace with the Soviets. The difference being now that Russia is a rump state with comparatively little power and influence.

        As i said, ask yourself if you’d be taking the same view if these policies were being followed by President Sanders? If not, you may tear the mask off your own ignorance.

        In the meantime it’s fascinating that you are so interested in loyalty to US values, interests, and power projection.

        • Stuart Munro 25.2.1.1
          18 July 2018 at 11:09 am

          Don’t project your ignorance onto me.

          Trump is out of his depth and won’t admit it.

          The same seems to be true of you.

  27. Dennis Frank 27
    18 July 2018 at 9:18 am

    Seems like a lot of political theatre going on, and as long as the powers keep the political reality behind the scenes speculation will remain the norm. Nobody ever gave Trump lessons in how to do public relations, obviously, but taking Putin’s word for it may only seem naive. May not actually be naive. If Trump is results-focused, his relationship with Putin is the key to getting the results he wants.

    Media hysteria again last night, but calls for impeachment dwindle. Protestors waving signs saying “Dems for Mike Pence” or “Pence Now!” are strangely absent. The left starting to link cause & effect? Cerebral process a tad less turgid?

    No need to deny that Russian hackers tried to influence the US election outcome. Acknowledge the evidence they did. So what? No need to assume Putin ordered that. No evidence he did – never will be unless some spook goes west & claims he did. Better for Trump to point out that American democracy won him the election & those who think Russian help won it for him are welcome to their delusions.

  28. KJT 28
    18 July 2018 at 10:04 am

    Still stinks of the political establishment, in the USA, casting around for any excuse why their preferred candidates did not win the election.

    Anything to avoid the obvious. The democrat party, in the USA, have been working for the rich for decades, making things so bad for so many people, that sabotaging the system by voting for an orange baboon, becomes a viable alternative.

    • Draco T Bastard 28.1
      18 July 2018 at 12:33 pm

      Yep. That’s how populism gets power.

      The previous elected representatives don’t listen to the general populace and does everything that the rich want. This inevitably ruins many peoples lives (we cannot afford the rich) so when a populist comes along and promises to make things great for the little people again they get voted in.

      You’ll note that the majority of populists are of the right-wing conservatives that look to the past through rose tinted glasses. The type of people who think rich people dictating to poor people is a Good Thing.

  29. CHCOff 29
    18 July 2018 at 11:14 am

    Or just that Trump was an outstanding candidate and the status quo U.S. political establishment got trounced on a scale it couldn’t conceive.

    • veutoviper 30.1
      23 July 2018 at 4:12 am

      Only just saw this! Brilliant, Macro. Thanks.

    • corodale 30.2
      23 July 2018 at 5:42 am

      So the US where right to ignore the warning from the Ozzie. Can’t trust a navy that carry live sheep. “September 11 – The New Pearl Harbor” – Full version (1/3 …

  31. North 31
    18 July 2018 at 10:28 pm

    I salute you Stuart Munro. Looked at this thread a couple of hours ago and was appalled at the level of Eager-Trump-Love (If-Only-By-Default) arrayed against you by once were lefties who’re as risible as fuck with their “Of course I have no truck with Trump”. Sure. Except by default. Good on you Stuart Munro ! At the very least it can be said of you that you don’t support the kidnap and abuse of tiny ones. Once again hubristic, wahanui Trumpettes have taken over The Standard.