Typical misrepresentation from Farrar

Written By: - Date published: 12:21 pm, August 12th, 2014 - 97 comments
Categories: David Farrar, dpf, making shit up, spin - Tags: , , ,

Sociologist Dr Jarrod Gilbert takes everybody’s favourite right-wing spinster to task for his usual misrepresentation and spin:

My last Farrar

In politics, as in religion, the true believers will never be convinced they are wrong. But I could not let David Farrar away with the incredible assertions in his last blog post defending the incorrect use of gang figures.

Farrar says, “Dr Gilbert now concedes gangs are responsible for the proportions cited”

I did not. Anybody can read my post for themselves and see that. The only thing I’m conceding is that I shouldn’t have called the dishonest Farrar a reasonable bloke – quite clearly he is not. He’s ignorant.
[…]

Farrar says, “Dr Gilbert… is now trying to argue that there is a difference between gang associates and gang members”.

I’m not trying to argue that at all, I am stating it as a fact. Just as every gang researcher in the world does, and just as the New Zealand Police and the Department of Corrections do. Apparently Farrar knows better.

[…]

I don’t have an agenda. It is quite clear that Farrar does and here we see clearly the problem of politics. Both sides won’t concede that they just desperately want to win, and the victim in all of this is the truth.

In coming days I will publish an extract from PATCHED that discusses this in detail. Farrar won’t read it of course, but I hope anybody curious about understanding things a little more might.

Go read the whole post on Gilbert’s blog

97 comments on “Typical misrepresentation from Farrar”

  1. Tracey 1

    hooton and farrer, to a large extent, remind me of science versus religion debaters ( they being on the religious side). They will concede small things to seem reasonable but mostly they are truth manipulators to win people to their side. Their stock and trade being based on, and peddling in, ignorance…

    • john 1.1

      This site is no different.

      They all use anything, no matter how irrelevant or tenuous, to try to score political points.

      • Tracey 1.1.1

        And who gets your vote this time?

        • john 1.1.1.1

          The winners – just like most elections.

          I’ll happily vote left again as soon as they have policies and people competent enough to run the country.

          • Sanctuary 1.1.1.1.1

            Don’t feed the troll.

          • anker 1.1.1.1.2

            J @1.1.1.1 That has to be Cunliffe. Very competent minister, not afraid to sack a corrupt health board, solved an on-going Dr’s dispute by sitting down with both parties. Sorted in one evening. Harvard, business background Mfaft. Fully costed, fully comprehensive policies (visit their website John, to say it out-shines Nationals is an undertatement.

            Dam……….responded to the troll! Just couldn’t help myself!

            • alwyn 1.1.1.1.2.1

              That’s all right. You didn’t waste your time giving him a reasoned argument, backed up by facts.
              It wouldn’t have taken very long to provide this little bit of spin, quoting a whole lot of fairy tales.

              • framu

                pretty sure youve seen how john behaves alwyn – do facts or reasoned argument even matter to john?

          • ghostwhowalksnz 1.1.1.1.3

            Heard of Christchurch rebuild disaster ? Novapay. ? Pike River, Masterton balloon tragedy?
            We will be paying well into to future for Englishs ‘competancy’ for borrowing $1 billion per month for the last 5 years

            • john 1.1.1.1.3.1

              Another reminder that the global financial crisis never happened in the heads of planet left.

              • McFlock

                and yet we could still afford a further round of tax cuts for the rich…

                • john

                  No doubt if they didn’t, you’d be talking about “broken election promises”

                  • McFlock

                    jeez, it’s almost as if they shouldn’t have promised tax cuts when the GFC was evident.

                    Forbes & Coates were equally shit.

                    • john

                      In 2008 Labour promised tax cuts “that by 2012 will amount to over $4.6 billion” (quote from Micheal Cullen).

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      And in 2008, once the GFC was evident, they promised a new budget in 2008 to cover the expected shortfall.

                      National, being the incompetents that they are, just went with unaffordable tax cuts.

                    • john

                      That was a big reason for Labours 2008 election loss. Cullen increased the tax take from $30b to $60b without giving any tax relief for workers.

                      He was taking a higher and higher % of gdp as tax.

                      By failing to move tax brackets over such a long period, effectively every worker, every year, was paying a bigger and bigger percentage of their wages in tax.

                    • McFlock

                      By failing to move tax brackets over such a long period, effectively every worker, every year, was paying a bigger and bigger percentage of their wages in tax.

                      so by paying the same percantage in tax they were paying a bigger percentage in tax?

                      You’re an idiot, john.

                    • Gosman

                      Ahhh…. no. If you have a progressive tax system unless you change the bands occassionally due to wage increases more people end up paying higher rates of tax even though they may have only moved in to the higher tax bracket as a result of cost of living increases. I’m not surprised you didn’t grasp this concept though.

                    • McFlock

                      actually, fair call.

                      All else being equal, of course.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Cullen increased the tax take from $30b to $60b

                      [citation needed]

                      By failing to move tax brackets over such a long period,

                      All the RWNJs go on about the tax brackets not moving but I suspect that most people didn’t even realise it or weren’t concerned about it. After all, most people don’t have high enough income to be concerned with where the next tax bracket comes in.

                      And, yes, I agree that the tax brackets need to move inline with incomes.

              • meconism

                Global Banking Crisis, not Financial crisis.

          • Clemgeopin 1.1.1.1.4

            If you think that the inefficient and/or dishonest nincompoops like Key, English, Joyce, Brownlee, Collins, Bennett, Coleman, Parata, McCully, Groser, Finlayson, Tolley, N smith, N Guy, C.Floss, Williamson, Dunne, Banks, Woodhouse, and oh, Bridges, are ‘competent’, then you are absolutely wrong, pretty blind or thick!

            And as far as the National party’s ‘policies’ are concerned, they are PRIMARILY geared for the benefit of the wealthy with a few vote winning public relations motivated cunning crumbs thrown in for the what Key once referred to as ‘the underclass’!

      • infused 1.1.2

        Including the very outdated picture of Farrer.

        • ghostwhowalksnz 1.1.2.1

          Oprah had lost a lot of weight …once. But most came back on fairly quickly. So no need to refresh his picture

      • adam 1.1.3

        Who here lies and is not stomped on by the moderators, either, be they right or left?

        Who makes assumptions and uses the MSM to extend their propaganda – here on the standard?

        How diverse are the arguments here? Have you not seen left v left fighting? I know I’ve butted heads with people from Labour, the Greens and IMP – and I still like and respect them even though we disagree.

        This is a discussion board, with a huge range of views. They even let in the occasional anarchist on you know.

        So John, your kinda wrong, sorry buddy.

        • Tracey 1.1.3.1

          Some people confuse people with sites. I singled out hoots and farrar cos they manage to get high exposure of their “thoughts”. I dont recall seeing or hearing the main authors from this site in MSM where the ignorance can spread like wildfire

          • srylands 1.1.3.1.1

            That is because the main authors from this site are anonymous.

            • McFlock 1.1.3.1.1.1

              Actually, they’re pseudonumous, sspylands.
              Tell me, does lusk post to the greasy cetacean using his own name?
              edit: oh, you’re trying to get yourself kicked. Need a Medal of Squalor to show your tory mates, huh?

        • Gosman 1.1.3.2

          I don’t think David Farrar makes statements he knows are factually inaccurate so therefore you can’t really accuse him of lying. He might put up something that is not correct but he does acknowledge his mistake often times. In this regard he is probably better than many posters here.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1.3.2.1

            Nice of you to elucidate the finer points of implausible deniability, Gosman, you being such an expert ‘n’ all.

          • McFlock 1.1.3.2.2

            Farrar says, “Dr Gilbert now concedes gangs are responsible for the proportions cited”

            I did not. Anybody can read my post for themselves and see that.

            So your position is that farrar isn’t a liar, he is just incapable of reading while at the same time being capable of formulating a coherent statement that contradicts reality?

            What a unique literacy problem Farrar must have. Or he, like you, is just a fucking liar.

            • felix 1.1.3.2.2.1

              I’ve tried to explain to Gosman before how bad it looks when your entire argument consists of defining the word “lie”…

              • Gosman

                The problem for many of you lefties is you are so intellectually arrogant that you can’t grasp than any position which is at odds with your world view can be arrived at by the same level of analysis that you go through to come to yours. There is a lack of acknowledgment that there is more than one way to skin a cat. This arrogance leads to statements whereby anyone presenting a contrary position must by extension be telling a lie. I actually encourage this in leftists behaviour as it is very off putting to many undecided people.

                • BLiP

                  The problem for many Tories is that you deliberately seek to confuse the telling of lies with analysis. You did read the OP, right?

                • felix

                  Unfortunately Farrar’s “contrary position” is contrary to the fact, facts that were directly available to him when he told the lies.

                  Twist and turn all you like my little worm. A lie is a lie however you define it.

                • Tracey

                  Pot. Kettle. FOG

                • tricledrown

                  The goose has cooked himself in whale oil!
                  you have outed yourself goose!

          • Sanctuary 1.1.3.2.3

            Dr Jarrod Gilbert is an expert. He basically called Farrar a liar. Game over.

            • Gosman 1.1.3.2.3.1

              Why is that game over?

            • john 1.1.3.2.3.2

              Most experts don’t have a “Wanker of the Week”, blog about how fat their girl friend is, or how drunk they are so early in the day.

              • BLiP

                Classic . . .

                Tory Ideology 101: when confronted with undeniable facts and/or irrefutable logic, apply ad hom

                • john

                  And the thousands of examples of the same thing here by left wingers?

                  Perhaps you have missed the irony of your own hypocrisy.

                  • felix

                    john.

                    When you find someone telling lies, demonstrate it by presenting evidence.

                    It really is that simple. It’s amazing that you never do it.

                    • Gosman

                      Again the double standards in the comment is fascinating.

                    • john

                      There are thousands of examples on this site of people on the left attacking the person instead of the subject.

                      If you can’t find any, then you’re deliberately closing your eyes.

                    • felix

                      Oh indeed. I for one like to make fun of idiots with nothing to add. I’m doing it right now.

                      But I thought you were complaining about lies?

                    • BLiP

                      There are thousands of examples on this site of people on the left attacking the person instead of the subject.

                      Show me one – yes, just one – instance of Dr Gilbert attacking the person and not the subject. I mean, it is Dr Gilbert’s highlighting of Farrar’s lies we are talking about here and it is Dr Gilbert that you attacked without reference to the actual subject being discussed.

                      Are you 12?

          • tricledrown 1.1.3.2.4

            How many dead rats will Key have to swallow to get back in to power crazy colin inbred whyte legally high dunne winnie the pooh splintered is not the right word unhinged like you gossipman!

          • tricledrown 1.1.3.2.5

            Especially you gossipman you never acknowledge your mistakes you just stop posting for a while then come back hoping everyone will forget!

            • Gosman 1.1.3.2.5.1

              Such as?

              • tricledrown

                Claiming Ireland’s economy not collapsing eastern European countries were going gang busters and too many other pathetic Toilt?roll actions of pathetic propaganda trying to defend the indefensible!
                Less is more Gossipman. yesterday you admitted you come to this Blog site to cause disruption the first time you have been completely truthful!
                how much do you get paid because recently you have lied more than not and been found out!
                Do you get paid by column inch Lie or half truth!

                • Gosman

                  Yes. I am quite willing to defend my position on those issue. I’m curious though about your comments where you equate Futures with a CDO. Would you classify that as a lie considering it is wrong?

                  • felix

                    Classic Gosman:

                    ‘I’m quite willing to defend my position, let’s change the subject immediately.’

                    • Gosman

                      Not changing the subject at all. If tricledrown wishes to post something on Open Mike I will support my position that Ireland and a number of Eastern European nations got through the downturn after the GFC by following a austerity line much better than nations that didn’t follow such policies.

                    • tricledrown

                      Lies again gossipman Ireland’s economy only barely keeping head above water you call $170 billion stimulus package +unlimited funding of Irish abnks at virtually 0% Austerity I’ll eat my hat!
                      Unemployment figures look good only because so many have left!

                      Eastern Europe is in permanent recession!

                • Gosman

                  Just to refresh your memory on the topic here is your coment equating futures with CDO’s

                  NRT: 32,000 out of work under National

            • felix 1.1.3.2.5.2

              Gos never stops posting, but he does switch handles.

        • left for dead 1.1.3.3

          occasional anarchist Good stuff Adam. By the way,Loyely sunny day her on the Pennisula.A.M

      • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1.4

        Big difference between point scoring and dishonesty. Farrar is exposed as dishonest, not just biased.

  2. Gosman 2

    Ummm… you do acknowledge there is quite a major link between Gang mambers and Gang Associates do you? I suspect that if gangs were better targetted by Police it would have some impact on crime committed by associates.

  3. ghostwhowalksnz 3

    years ago, when Farrar started his blog I had a great debate with him about his misleading use of % to compare different numbers. A big no no, as its lesson one in how to lie using statistics.

    Hes been superceded by the the Oily Orca as nationals mouthpiece, so traffic has dropped off markedly. So now when he wants to make a point and there is no absurd statement for him to make himself sound reasonable, he goes as says “imagine if they were….[insert ridiculous comment]

  4. Populuxe1 4

    I trust we can still all agree that gangs are a bad thing?

    • Tracey 4.1

      If gangs are bad does that mean farrar can misrepresent or lie about stats about gangs?

      • Populuxe1 4.1.1

        No, it just means that this is all a trivial distraction over terms and point scoring from the real issue which is gangs are bad and society would be better off without them.

        • Pascals bookie 4.1.1.1

          Have you read his post? or his blog? or his book?

          having the facts is how you deal with the problems. Fudging the facts, doesn’t help.

          • Populuxe1 4.1.1.1.1

            Whatever. This is a side show. Farrar has nothing to do with making policy, he only exists to annoy people.

            • Pascals bookie 4.1.1.1.1.1

              The stats are the Minister’s aren’t they? Isn’t Farrar just trying to defend the Minister’s stats?

              Or is the Minister a sideshow too?

              • Populuxe1

                I wasn’t aware that National’s uselessness was in question. I just fail to see why people keep giving Farrar oxygen.

            • lprent 4.1.1.1.1.2

              Actually I suspect that he has quite a lot to do with making policy. That is what party pollsters wind up doing when they test messages. Both at the polling level and in the kiwiblog lab.

    • Murray Olsen 4.2

      I don’t agree with that at all. The world is not so simple. There is some good in gangs, which should be recognised. I agree that Farrar and Whalespew are bad things.

  5. tricledrown 5

    Gangs have proliferated under Nationals get tough on gangs policy ,Gangs don’t show up in the crime stats because they have got a lot smarter and are not easy to prosecute because of intimidation and the high standard of evidence required to required .Then the gangs are able to pool money and get dodgy lawyers to them off!
    Now a couple of weeks out from the election Tolley after 6 years announces a band aid policy

    • Gosman 5.1

      You have evidence that membership of gangs have increased over the past 6 years do you?

  6. tricledrown 6

    Gangs are having a free reign on petty crime and burglary as the Cops don,t show up to a burglary or maybe a couple of days later even though we have record numbers of cops with modern labour saving devices , the numbers of burglaries solved continues to drop the police are just leaving it to the insurance companies to pick up the pieces
    Violent crime is up a lot worse than the police figures suggest as they have split the types of crime into more categories making the numbers look small!
    And they claim record low crime it just doesn’t add up cops are fudging the figures under Nationals guidance!

    • Gosman 6.1

      Any evidence that Cops are fudging crime statistics in a massive way under National party guidance?

      • McFlock 6.1.1

        so many weasel words in one sentence: “in a massive way”… “under National party guidance”.

        Pure co-inkydink that five officers fudged the burg stats by 30% in the police minister’s electorate.

        • Gosman 6.1.1.1

          Yes I am aware of the one off case. However that is not what trickledown has claimed is happening.

          • McFlock 6.1.1.1.1

            lol
            so police respond within twenty minutes to every report of a burglary, do they?

          • Descendant Of Sssmith 6.1.1.1.2

            There was a media report about a year after National came in outlining that police had been told to now count fraud such as cheque fraud by changing from each cheque being a charge to group them together.

            Given the long history of individual documents being an individual charge I’d suggest that was fudging.

            No doubt others would call it “efficiency.”

            • BLiP 6.1.1.1.2.1

              The more grievous twisting of figures by National Ltd™ was when the collecting of crime statistics was tweaked to discount multiple reports of the same crime. Prior to National Ltd™, if the same crime was reported by, say, three people it was counted as three reports, now its counted as one. That’s how National Ltd™ has managed to reduce crime.

              (One aside: remember how in the lead up to the 2008 election there was a MSM-induced sense of fear about crime in New Zealand? There were a couple of shocking murders in the lead up to the election . . . not so much MSM hysteria this time, though and the number and nature of recent murders has been far more baleful. )

            • Gosman 6.1.1.1.2.2

              Link to media report please. Governments do not usually engage in the detail of how statistics are collected however if you have evidence of this present it.

  7. silverbullet 7

    The public are rightly not going to fuss much about the gang member/gang associate differential. The public hates them justifiably and are likely to perceive a pointy head academic sociologist as a bleeding heart Lefty type suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.

    • Pascals bookie 7.1

      So I guess this weird rant is in place of an argument that might show which of Gilbert or DPF is actually correct?

      • silverbullet 7.1.1

        The point is it is academic.

        • Pascals bookie 7.1.1.1

          What’s academic? The question of whether you are just boringly dishonest or actually really stupid?

          I think that’s pretty academic, (in that it doesn’t really matter), but I’ve got a bit of time, should we explore it?

  8. silverbullet 8

    Gilbert is a raving neo Marxist Leftie. lol:

    “Honourable mentions: The 94 percent of Israeli Jews, let’s call them evil wankers, who feel that the assault on Gaza is not ‘excessive’; people who live in Epsom for continually being wankers; and all of the lazy wankers not defacing election billboards.”

    • felix 8.1

      How come you picked that one and not the one where he lays into the Internet/Mana Party, which also happens to be the very next post to the one we’re talking about?

      • silverbullet 8.1.1

        Stop pretending the guy is not well Left.

        • felix 8.1.1.1

          Why would I do that? I don’t think being “left” in any way invalidates his facts.

          You, on the other hand, are unable to find any fault with his argument so you’re desperately thrashing around for some other reason to attack him.

          Why didn’t you pick the one where he slams Trevor Mallard?

  9. repateet 9

    Cameron Slater is easily identified as a toe rag. He often looks dishevelled, he thinks dishevelled and he writes squalid.

    Farrar gets invited to all the poncey places and media as a conservative, normal, thinking man-of-the -world, albeit from the right. Great uniforms for a feral huckster.

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