What Do The Maori Party Want Anyway?

Written By: - Date published: 8:05 am, May 12th, 2023 - 174 comments
Categories: benefits, climate change, culture, Economy, housing, jobs, law, law and "order", maori party, Maori seats, political parties, treaty settlements - Tags:

Since they’re touted as 2023’s electoral ‘Kingmakers’, it’s time to understand what the Maori Party really want.

All about the policy today folks. We’re going to deal with the recent policies since some have been COVID-specific, such as requiring 25% of all recovery projects including the ‘shovel-ready’ ones will be Maori-led.

In Justice they want $500 million for restorative justice, $100 million for a Maori legal defence service,  compulsory body cameras for Police, repealing the Bail Amendment Act, and pardon Maori for crimes they didn’t commit.

In their Te Reo policy they want to replace the name New Zealand with Aotearoa, and replace all Pakeha names of cities and towns to their original Maori names. They have a big focus on enhancing Te Reo through schools, such as requiring all Primary School curriculum to be 50% Te Reo, and pay schools according to their measured Te Reo competency. Also they want to audit all government agencies with a permanent Maori Standards Authority.

They are big on the arts, noting that the New Zealand Ballet gets $5.4million a year and Te Matatini gets $1.9 lion but they want ten times that. They want $57 million for a new Maori arts entity, and it gets Lottery money like many other cultural institutions.

They state:

For too long the crown has feasted off our cultural intellectual property and have used it as a means to selfishly ignite international relationships and tourism interests…”

They have a big self determination policy, and these should be set out fully:

  1. Commit all Māori to the Māori electoral roll by 2023.
  2. Entrench all Māori electorates.
  3. Establish a Māori Parliament.
  4. Implement all Matike Mai recommendations for constitutional transformation
  5. Overhaul the Te Tiriti settlement process and end the fiscal envelope.
  6. Insert relativity clauses into all Te Tiriti settlements, to ensure all iwi have parity with Ngāi Tahu and Waikato-Tainui.
  7. Make Waitangi Tribunal recommendations binding on the Crown, and implement all unaddressed WAI claim recommendations.
  8. Abolish “full and final” settlements and the “large natural groupings” approach to recognising mana whenua groups.
  9. Return conservation land to whānau, hapū and iwi Māori.
  10. Introduce a first right of refusal policy for mana whenua when private land of historical significance comes up for sale – like Ihumātao.
  11. Remove the racist provision that allows for referenda to overturn council’s decisions to establish Māori wards.
  12. Establish a Parliamentary Commissioner for Te Tiriti o Waitangi to provide oversight of the Crown.

In housing they want 50% of all new social housing allocated to Maori. They want to put a 2% tax on the capital value of any house unoccupied for 3 months. They want a 2% tax on all property except your family home. They want to stop all sales of land and all kinds of housing to foreigners.

For children and young people, they want $600 million for a new Maori care entity. It will be designed as a by-Maori for Maori institution, basing itself on the 1988 Puao-Te-Ata-Tu Report.

Their incomes policy is pretty substantial. They want to double baseline benefit levels, cancel all income support-related debt, bring back a universal student allowance, write off the entire cost-of-living component of all student loans and work towards writing it all off if they stay here for five years.

They want $1 billion for Pūngao Auaha. This will support whānau, iwi and Māori businesses to invest in community energy projects, and fund the fit-out of solar panels and insulation for marae, kura, whānau homes and papakāinga housing developments.

They want a total ban on all oil and gas and seabed mining. They want no mining to extend not only to all conservation land, but also to all reserves and Significant Natural Areas under the RMA. They want to phase out all commercial coal use in 7 years. They want to phase out all synthetic fertiliser in 2 years, and bring agricultural methane into the ETS. They want $300 million for Maori farmers to transition to regenerative farming.

There’s a few others things, but that’s a start.

174 comments on “What Do The Maori Party Want Anyway? ”

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  1. Sanctuary 1
    12 May 2023 at 8:50 am

    Well then, we might as well start buying investment property again in anticipation of the return of the National led property boom ponzi.

  2. pat 2
    12 May 2023 at 8:50 am

    Not much then

  3. tsmithfield 3
    12 May 2023 at 8:55 am

    Reading all that, why on earth would National rule them out devil?

    • Nic the NZer 3.1
      12 May 2023 at 1:05 pm

      National ruled out TPM, just like you didn't want to go to that party anyway (to which you didn't get an invite).

  4. Alan 4
    12 May 2023 at 9:06 am

    Don't forget withdrawing from 5 Eyes

    • Scud 4.1
      12 May 2023 at 12:45 pm

      But on their flip to their 32in, is they want Armed Neutrality!

      Now who on the left or the bloody Tories want to pay for that?

      As it going to cost a fortune than the current NZ Budget, as the NZDF has to rebuild lost capabilities & expand others.

      Plus the spooks will have to increase their funding & capabilities as well given what has happened to previous countries that have adopted Armed Neutrality.

      • lprent 4.1.1
        12 May 2023 at 6:37 pm

        Move from idling at 0.7% of GDP to something closer to 2% of GDP for usual expenditure, which is where Aus is today.

        Aussie won't want to cover our arse in the way that they have been if we freeload as a neutral..

        But it’d be closer to 3-4% for a couple of decades simply to build up capabilities enough for our own standalone defence. Just think of the shipping lanes that we are utterly dependent on.

        • Belladonna 4.1.1.1
          12 May 2023 at 7:32 pm

          In order to defend the shipping lanes – we would require a serious blue-water navy. Presumably using some form of convoy system (since active policing of the oceans would be several bridges too far)
          I doubt there is sufficient will to invest prior to demonstrated need. And after the demonstrated need it would be too late.

          • SPC 4.1.1.1.1
            12 May 2023 at 11:04 pm

            If sea lanes to Oz were being protected, who would be a threat to sea lanes across the Tasman?

            • Belladonna 4.1.1.1.1.1
              13 May 2023 at 10:39 am

              So who is going to be doing this protection of the sea-lanes to Oz?
              And, will they be happy for NZ to piggy-back for free on their (highly expensive) investment.

              • SPC …
                13 May 2023 at 12:01 pm

                Do the sea lanes across the Tasman need protecting?

                • Belladonna …
                  13 May 2023 at 2:18 pm

                  IDK. Do they?

                  Certainly sea lanes in general do. Effectively the US has been acting as big brother, guaranteeing freedom of the seas for the last 70 years. Multi-national naval forces are based around a US naval contingent.

                  Should they cease to do so – who would pick up the slack? And, we've certainly seen signs that the US is picking up their international marbles and going home.

                  NZ is entirely dependent on sea freight (we saw this during the Covid disruptions – and the freight challenges are still continuing today).

                  Yes, if the rest of the world became inaccessible tomorrow – NZ wouldn't starve – but we wouldn't have a first world economy either.

                  Have a hard think about what would happen to NZ if oil shipping (just to take one example) was heavily disrupted (due to piracy, whether amateur or state-sanctioned). Even if *our* oil shipments weren't affected, NZ is unlikely to be able to compete in a subsequent bidding war.

                  We've already seen that NZ is right at the end of shipping lines — any disruption is most easily dealt with (by the shipping companies), simply cancelling the NZ leg of the voyage, and making up the time on their schedules.

                  You made the assumption that someone else would guarantee shipping as far as Oz – what is that assumption based on?

                • Scud …
                  22 May 2023 at 2:30 pm

                  If i can these numbers for you, i'll post them up as the amount of boxes that travel between the ditch is eyewatering and most of those are in transit to go elsewhere like the Singapore Hub or direct. Then you have Bulk Carriers & Tankers, start doing the sums? it gets scary, then throw in a two way range and watch insurance costs go through the roof which then on shipping costs, wages, extra transportation costs & all the way to us consumers who buy it!

                  Thats why our sovereign domestic manufacturing capabilities are so bloody important in peacetime that they maintain no matter what sector they are in!!!

                  But the Stupid Cunts on the Fucking Right and some on the Bloody Left don't understand!!!

                  • RedLogix …
                    22 May 2023 at 4:19 pm

                    After 7 decades of the US Navy paying for everyone else shipping security – I think a lot of nations are going to soon discover the price of what they've been taking so blissfully (and often resentfully) for granted.

                  • SPC …
                    22 May 2023 at 4:37 pm

                    My presumption is that shipping lanes to Oz are secure (a major part of global shipping networks) and or under the protection of others (US – UK, Japan, ASEAN and India).

                    How much "armed" neutrality does Ireland need behind UK of NATO? That said, we would have a Pacific role even if disconnected from "partnerships".

                    I don't see a military threat to Tasman shipping (not with the subs or our new aircraft), the greater threat is disruption of global shipping. If we lost "patronage" of inclusion in that transport system that would be a greater risk.

                    Then we would have to restore lost capability in merchant shipping – and the cost of inward and outward via Oz or Singapore would add costs.

                    We are going to have to consider LPD type (and or aircraft) options to ensure goods to our own regions given road and rail are vulnerable to GW events.

                    Merchant shipping stuff.

                    As for domestic capability we like Oz have given up refining – outsourced to ASEAN.

                    We have also failed to maintain the Cook Strait cargo service adequately so now perishables go to waste.

                    Manufacturing base resilience …. we import people because we have no mechanisation to harvest

          • Scud 4.1.1.1.2
            22 May 2023 at 2:16 pm

            In order to defend the shipping lanes – we would require a serious blue-water navy. Yes this is correct, but given modern Naval Technology and a little thinking outside of the box its doable if we use the Danish STANFLEX System and when the RNZN gets its two LPD's? Providing we also keep the Canterbury as well, do what the Dutch do with their LPD's when they are not supporting their Marines or undertaking HADR Tasks. But use them as Anti Submarine Carriers for their ASW Helicopters to support its Surface Fleet or one of NATO's many Standing Fleets.

            So what a RNZN would like under a Armed Neutrality?

            Given that NZ is a Trading Nation heavily dependent on Maritime Shipping with free & open access to its Sea Lanes Of Communications (SLOC's) to export & import goods for its economic wellbeing.

            It might be sometime like this?

            4-6 Frigates: using the STANFLEX System Modules, these Modules can built & maintained here NZ. Using a basic Frigate design for ASW ie the Type 26 but stay away from the Pommy & Australian Shipyards or a General Purpose one (The UK Type 31 which is base on a Danish design) built Overseas. These Frigates would act as the Command & Control Node for the Escort Fleet or an Army Battalion Task Group

            8-12 OPV's and again using the STANFLEX System Modules, primary role of the OPV's in Peacetime is the usual Fisheries, Territorial EEZ & Sth Pacific Patrols. In times of Tenson, Crisis or having to support the an Army Battalion Task. The OPV's can be re-role into a heavy Covette/ Light Frigate using the STANFLEX System Modules and the support the Frigate with its group. This would in theory give you 1 Frigate & 2 OPV's come heavy Covette/ Light Frigate per Escort Group, but some have said this is too small and it should 1+3? But if we use that figure, that would be Say 6 Frigates + 18 OPV's and we haven't even started to discus

            The Navy's Support Group (Fleet Support Ships, Landing Dock Ships), Southern Ocean Patrol Force which is going to require at min 3 Ships (these ships will be at least bigger than your average size Frigate thanks to CC) and the MCM/ Littoral Group.

            Then we have the Dockyard, which at least another one or two will have be re-established and more importantly where to find the crews? Given that the NZG doesn't exactly look after its Defence Personal all that well in the last 40-30 years.

            Then we have the RNZAF to provide overwatch with its P8's, a 2nd tier MPA something like the MPA version of the C295 from Airbus.

            Again you are looking at least a min of 9 Aircraft each

            A Min of 6 Tankers to Support them

            The need for more Helicopters

            The need more Transporters (C295's, C130J's, A400's & A330 MRTT's)

            At least 9-12 UAV's possible more to plug gaps where the Navy aren't there ie the Broad Area Maritime Surveillance or support both Navy & Army which will incl Armed UVA's

            And Yes Manned Strike Wing of 2-3 SQN's if someone is that stupid enough to come down or the Convicts might turn up as they don't trust us! And yes, that has happened before folks in the lead up to the Battle of Norway in 1940 IRT the Altmark incident when the RN boarded Altmark in Norwegian Waters and it went downhill after that.

            Its all starting to add up and who wants to pay for this insurance premium every yr from here on in and you may never get to use/need it?

            What I've posted is a very rough idea and if i wasn't busy atm. I would've a cost break down on various units & links to the tab data.

        • Scud 4.1.1.2
          22 May 2023 at 12:31 pm

          My apologies my late reply to post, as we been tidying up our bush block & crib up IOT put it on the market as we selling up here in Darwin.

          Yes Defence spending well be somewhere between 3-4% spending or as high as 5% if NZ decides to down the Armed Neutrality Route?

          It well mean both sides of the political spectrum having to swallow alot dead rats just not on Defence and Security issues both domestic and foreign. But also in the NZ's Economic Policy, Trade & Foreign Affairs as everyone! And I mean everyone you, me, the Polly's, public servants, the big end of town & everyone in between has to be on the same sheet of music.

          Unlike most other Neutral Counties, we have a bloody large moat, so we can't actually put boxes (20ft containers or TEU's) on a truck or a train and before we even start talking about bulk carriers or tankers. So we need to Protect our SLOC's when Asian Pacific becomes a two way range, especially so now that Oz aka the RAN have finally got their Nuke powered Attack Subs after 40 odds of trying and are high likely to be based out of Port Kembla on NSW's South Coast. Which means the ditch as going to see alot more Submarine activity probably not seen since WW2?

          Which leads me to my next post below, on how NZ might structure its Navy & Airforce?

          please note: I've boxed up my notes & reference books which incl's import & export data on many boxes travel plus Bulk Shipments from & too NZ so i can't supply this important information.

          • Belladonna 4.1.1.2.1
            22 May 2023 at 6:11 pm

            Unlike most other Neutral Counties, we have a bloody large moat, so we can't actually put boxes (20ft containers or TEU's) on a truck or a train

            Absolutely true. We ship from Oz for a significant percentage of our international freight. We're now having to book shipping more than 6 months out. Not just pencilled in, but absolute commitments to the number of pallets of freight. And, if you miss the cut-off – it will be another 6 months before your order arrives (unless you want to pay the air-freight premium).

            We have never seen anything like this (over the last 25 years in business) – the 'ditch' is a pretty big barrier right now.

            It is getting to the (ridiculous) point where it is both quicker and cheaper to air-freight from the US or UK – than it is to ship from Oz.

  5. SPC 5
    12 May 2023 at 9:12 am

    Implement all Matike Mai recommendations for constitutional transformation

    https://nwo.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MatikeMaiAotearoa25Jan16.pdf

  6. pat 6
    12 May 2023 at 9:14 am

    These may be the reasons why the party vote for The Maori Party totalled 33.632 in the 2020 election….I suspect that total is unlikely to increase greatly this time round.

  7. Tiger Mountain 7
    12 May 2023 at 9:15 am

    There is a lot to like for working class non Māori in that list too.
    https://www.maoriparty.org.nz/income

    Debbie’s Parliamentary speech on seabed mining was a real cracker.

    https://www.facebook.com/debbiengarewapacker/posts/pfbid026uxa8Jgw6qzEyDpc1uGapa9BqMMtjjwezU6PUejuFBCC5naYDY7HtcAc9iuKvn63l?comment_id=566228772310889&notif_id=1683794415646956&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic&ref=notif

    Te Pāti Māori talk about “Ngati Tiriti” which means Pākehā and others that identify with the concept of an Aotearoa NZ that overcomes post colonial fall out to the benefit of the majority of people in this country.

    These people, flaws and all, are pointing to the strategic direction where NZ Labour fears to go.

    • gsays 7.1
      12 May 2023 at 10:00 am

      While there is enough stuff in the OP to scare all the horses, I maintain, what is good for Maori is good for all of us.

      • Tiger Mountain 7.1.1
        12 May 2023 at 10:51 am

        yes me too

      • weka 7.1.2
        12 May 2023 at 11:32 am

        same (generally, there will be some exceptions)

      • bwaghorn 7.1.3
        12 May 2023 at 3:42 pm

        Is forcing all Maori in to the Maori role good for Maori??

        Is it on blood tests ,DNA tests, or how you identify yourself?

        • gsays 7.1.3.1
          12 May 2023 at 5:03 pm

          Sorry mate, I'm not over the detail of the policy.

          I figure they have to be the only party not making neo-liberal noises.

          I have been trying to circle this square. Accepting CC is the biggest issue we ALL face, (cost of living, interest rates, identity issues aside), how can we keep trumpeting these trade deals?

          I don't need more processed potato products from off shore. DS mentioned in the Iwi Kiwi 2.0 post "Peters' days of economic nationalism are over." I figure that is exactly what we need. A few tariffs here, some sudsidies there.

          Heresy, I know but we can't neo-liberal our way out of this.

          • weka 7.1.3.1.1
            13 May 2023 at 10:04 am

            TPM don't have publicly released policy on this so much as position statements.

            I figure they have to be the only party not making neo-liberal noises.

            And the Greens, obviously. I don't think I can make these public but the statements made by GP candidates in the list selection process included a lot of anti-capitalist positions. GP policies reflect this too. The reason they're not going gung ho on it is because the electorate aren't on board yet.

        • Shanreagh 7.1.3.2
          13 May 2023 at 9:55 am

          At the moment it is if you whakapapa to a Maori ancestor.

      • Shanreagh 7.1.4
        13 May 2023 at 9:54 am

        Same though it is not an understood or popular point of view.

  8. Mac1 8
    12 May 2023 at 9:22 am

    What they'll have to do is decide come October 15 which of these policies is non-negotiable, preferable or nice to have.

    That would be a good start for a discussion now.

    How about from the viewpoint of the other party/parties in a coalition? What, in TMP policy, would be impossible to countenance, what could be lived with and what would be entirely comfortable?

    • SPC 8.1
      12 May 2023 at 9:29 am

      The demands are designed to make a coalition government impossible.

      In a revealing in-depth interview, he said they would have a substantial list of demands for their support.

      Thus

      Tamihere said Te Pāti Māori would sit on the cross-benches, decline any cabinet positions, and seek to keep them honest

      The real issue is terms for confidence and supply.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132012971/no-gst-on-food-no-monarchy-tax-the-rich-te-pti-moris-demands-for-coalition

    • Shanreagh 8.2
      13 May 2023 at 10:03 am

      That would be a good start for a discussion now.

      Yes Mac1 that is the way to look at it. Also TPM have said they will sit on the cross benches, from that I am taking alignment on issues of confidence & supply only which would be OK though much better to be able to broaden the net to include what can be under a MMP government.

      To dismiss other parties as National has is to state their support for a FPP govt, but we do not have this type of govt now and also to say that their party can be all things to everyone…..which it cannot.

      There are ideas from most of the minor parties that are worth looking at and represent the views of some of the people of NZ, and may be good for us all.

  9. SPC 9
    12 May 2023 at 9:34 am
    • Commit all Māori to the Māori electoral roll by 2023.
    • Entrench all Māori electorates.
    • Establish a Māori Parliament.

    The idea of all Maori on the Maori electoral roll

    * would require a referendum (all voters or all Maori voters?)

    * raises the question of whether Maori can be in both parliaments.

    • Molly 9.1
      12 May 2023 at 9:37 am

      "Commit all Māori to the Māori electoral roll by 2023."

      That's going to be interesting.

      I'm committed to getting off it, and so are a few others I know.

    • Nic the NZer 9.2
      12 May 2023 at 1:26 pm

      Raises the question of if NZ wants to become an apartheid state.

      • tWiggle 9.2.1
        12 May 2023 at 7:45 pm

        Apartheit suggests one race controlling the economic and social rights of all others, to their detriment. What is suggested is not that at all.

        • Nic the NZer 9.2.1.1
          12 May 2023 at 8:22 pm

          Afraid it obviously is. At best you end up with two legislative bodies with one delegating itemisation of a portion of budget to the other. Areas of legislation will be similar with the primary deciding which areas of law or policy are delegated. In practice the Maori parliament will be tertiary as it represents a smaller demographic.

          Coupled with putting Maori into a separate roll your effectively alienating Maori representation from primary issues to delegated issues.

          You might well think intentions of setting this up are important. But they are not and allegations of the wrong or insufficient delegation will follow based on outcomes. Quite soon NZ will be seen as an apartheid state.

  10. Sanctuary 10
    12 May 2023 at 9:37 am

    Everyone on the left: Let's not make race an election issue.

    Maori Party: Hold my beer….

    • Craig H 10.1
      12 May 2023 at 11:43 am

      It's quite hard to be an indigenous party and not have race become an issue, even if it's because another party decides to make it one.

    • roy cartland 10.2
      12 May 2023 at 4:16 pm

      Hold my beer in NOT making it a race issue?

      Maori is a culture, philsophy and system, as much as it is a 'race', increasingly so.

  11. SPC 11
    12 May 2023 at 9:41 am
    • Overhaul the Te Tiriti settlement process and end the fiscal envelope.
    • Insert relativity clauses into all Te Tiriti settlements, to ensure all iwi have parity with Ngāi Tahu and Waikato-Tainui.
    • Make Waitangi Tribunal recommendations binding on the Crown, and implement all unaddressed WAI claim recommendations.
    • Abolish “full and final” settlements and the “large natural groupings” approach to recognising mana whenua groups.

    Allow a review of “full and final settlements” once that process has been completed. That might include such matters as iwi and hapu relationship as to management of resources.

  12. Stephen D 12
    12 May 2023 at 9:53 am

    Both left and right blocks have the same number of seats, say 58.

    TPM have the balance and choose to sit on the cross benches. To whom do they offer their support?

    How does that work?

    • SPC 12.1
      12 May 2023 at 10:06 am

      A government is formed and recognised by the GG when they have a majority in parliament for confidence votes and supply votes.

      Past governments have received confidence and supply support from parties outside of a coalition government.

      It is part of the post 1996 MMP environment.

  13. ianmac 13
    12 May 2023 at 9:56 am

    All those who have been claiming that Te Maori are planning a takeover will be able to say I told you so. A vote for Labour will be a vote for Te Maori and a Maori takeover.

    • SPC 13.1
      12 May 2023 at 10:17 am

      This is not just about the Tiriti there is also the UN Right of the Indigenous Peoples.

      The He Puapua report was work done because Pita Sharples convinced the National government to sign up to it. It recommended a Maori Parliament, the then PM Ardern said no.

      Those claiming a Maori takeover is afoot can simply note how non-dominant the Greens have been in setting Labour policy.

      On these longer term constitutional issues bi-partisan consent is the norm.

      The reason why the MP is proposing to sit on the cross benches is they understand this, they will argue for full Maori rights but not expect to realise them via coalition deals that would only alienate the wider population.

      • ianmac 13.1.1
        12 May 2023 at 1:00 pm

        True SPC but imagine the "takeover"voter choosing who to voter for in October. Influenced by the possible Vote Labour/Green and get TMP?

  14. SPC 14
    12 May 2023 at 10:02 am

    #Establish a Parliamentary Commissioner for Te Tiriti o Waitangi to provide oversight of the Crown.

    As part of the governments obligation to the Indigenous People (UN Right of the Indigenous Peoples), there is going to be some sort of consultative body set up. Whether that would/could be the same as for Tititi is at this point moot.

    Oz is using it to form a governance relationship with Aborigine, the proposed consultation reminds one of the relationship between the UK PM and Crown (their meetings in which the PM informs the Crown of plans and the person who is monarch provides advice).

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/apr/19/what-is-the-indigenous-voice-to-parliament-referendum-question-wording-vote-australia-constitution-change-details-how-would-it-work-what-does-it-mean-explainer

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/486598/indigenous-voice-australia-pm-unveils-plan-for-historic-constitution-vote

  15. Darien Fenton 15
    12 May 2023 at 10:10 am

    I guess they are entitled to put forward their policies. I would say to them don't get too arrogant. With JT leading them, I have serious doubts.

  16. Anker 16
    12 May 2023 at 10:25 am

    I heard the two co leaders of Te Pati Maori being interviewed by Jack Tame. They stated they would abolish prisons. Does anyone know if that is policy?

    i agree with Molly about the Maori roll. Forcing Maori to be on the Maori roll isn’t good. At what point can future generations emancipate themselves from that roll ,1/16 Maori, 1/32 Maori and so on. Have two step children who are 1/16 Maori, one on the Maori roll one not.

    but some things I agree with that are their policies.

    • tWiggle 16.1
      12 May 2023 at 11:35 am

      All Maori to be on Maori roll seems to fit with the TMP policy for a separate? Māori Parliament. The separation of Māori power from general government seems suicidal strategically. Isolationist, too easy to shut down, sucks up democratic resource, labelled 'apartheit' by shit-stirrers. I agree with you, Anker: the roll stuff opens up the hoary right-wing 'blood quanta' debate.

      • Anker 16.1.1
        12 May 2023 at 7:03 pm

        I really think a number of Maori will not like being told they have to be on the Maori roll

        • Belladonna 16.1.1.1
          12 May 2023 at 7:36 pm

          More to the point, I seriously doubt if TPM would like the outcome. The majority (who choose not to be on the Maori roll) – are likely to be considerably more conservative (note the small 'c') than the radical TPM.

          Forcing all ‘Maori’ (presumably anyone with any whakapapa to iwi) to be on a separate roll, is likely to result in them voting for parties other than TPM – and unwinding the forced change.

  17. tWiggle 17
    12 May 2023 at 10:49 am

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132012971/no-gst-on-food-no-monarchy-tax-the-rich-te-pti-moris-demands-for-coalition

    Here are the negotiation points for TPM going into coalition. Note how few of Advantage's policy list are on there.

    • Alan 17.1
      12 May 2023 at 10:51 am

      I think a whole lot of cash would be demanded too

      • tWiggle 17.1.1
        12 May 2023 at 12:01 pm

        Alan, I think you confuse all the $$ requested with new money. A large part refers to allocation of existing money.

        For example, looking at TMP Criminal Justice policy, Māori are 56% of NZ prisoners, while NZ has a high recividist rate. Annual cost of prisons is ~$1 bi. Māori are also more likely to be sentenced to prison than the rest of us for an equivalent crime, which may be due to access to good legal representation in part. I can find no ready Legal Aid cost, but $150 mi was set aside for a 4 year review of the service in 2022, so I presume annual cost is far more than this.

        The TMP Criminal Justice policy asks for a targetted $100 mi Maori Legal Aid fund; a $0.5 bi fund (presumably total, not annual) for post-prison support of Maori; and for a culturally aware police force. This seems a proportionate ask to me. It can be funded by diversion of some prison funding to prevent recidivism, a highly desireable social target, plus ring-fencing of of existing LA funding. Not that much new money involved.

        Similarly, with a request for 25% targetted education money in TMP policy, where Māori make up 17% of population. However, as the Māori population is younger overall than the rest of us, a targetted 25% ask is closer to proportionate.

        I think if you look carefully, most $$ figures in the TMP policy are actually proportionate targetted funding, rather than new ask. TMP have been careful of their figures.

        • pat 17.1.1.1
          12 May 2023 at 2:20 pm

          And therein lies the potential problem of running parallel and separatist 'ministries'…..how is the funding allocated? who chooses which system they wish to utilise?…is there to be mobility between systems and how will that impact funding?….the list of (im)practicalities is endless.

          Never mind the inefficiencies of duplication.

    • Belladonna 17.2
      12 May 2023 at 2:46 pm

      Bet that tax the rich, exempts iwi assets and holdings.

      • bwaghorn 17.2.1
        12 May 2023 at 3:49 pm

        Most Maori wealth would be in trusts I'm picking, trusts are the best tax dodge out. Imho

        • Belladonna 17.2.1.1
          12 May 2023 at 6:24 pm

          Most trusts pay tax. Though not at the highest rate.
          Currently, I believe that iwi assets are mostly tax free (tax exempt charitable status).

          • tWiggle 17.2.1.1.1
            13 May 2023 at 12:40 pm

            The best way to dodge tax is to register as a charity or non-profit (see Destiny Church, the Tamakis, fancy cars and European holidays). Then your tax is zero. See also the rich Wright family, funder of The Platform, receiver of 100s of millions in taxpayer subsidies. This year it shifted the Best Start daycare chain it runs from a business to a charity that pays the family $20 mi a year.

            Māori trusts are treated as other trusts. You can register as a Māori authority, with 17% provisional tax rate, if you meet specific business and treaty related crieria. Not particularly hardcore tax dodging, it seems.

            https://www.ird.govt.nz/roles/maori-authorities/maori-authority-eligibility

            • Belladonna 17.2.1.1.1.1
              13 May 2023 at 12:54 pm

              I'd like to see a much harder line on charities for tax purposes. Sanitarium is the one that always seems … inappropriate to me. If you are running a business (as this is), then you should be paying corporate tax on that income stream. Of course, there may well be other income streams which are charitable (e.g. donations) and I agree these should be tax exempt.

              The same for iwi trusts. If the iwi is running commercial operations – fisheries, or farming) for example. It's a business; tax it as a business.

              However, a wealth tax doesn't tax the income, but rather the assets. If iwi are exempt (as has been proposed in at least one of the options) – then all other charities and trusts would be as well. Thus substantially diminishing potential revenue. Or the government would have to explain why Granny Bloggs is wealth taxed, but the iwi with 1000x the value of assets, isn't.

            • RedLogix 17.2.1.1.1.2
              13 May 2023 at 2:49 pm

              It seems a bit more complex than this. In their own words:

              https://ngaitahu.iwi.nz/our_stories/charitable-status-tk78/

              There is an argument to be made both ways, but in general it seems that if profits can be shown to be used for a 'charitable purpose' then they are 'unencumbered' by tax.

              Now they kind of make the argument that these charitable purposes are performing functions that otherwise the taxpayer might have to pay for. But the State provides services universally to all New Zealanders, not just members of the extended family.

    • bwaghorn 17.3
      12 May 2023 at 3:47 pm

      It's been long established that trying to remove gst off food is hugely complicated and costs more than it saves, maybe tpm should do some reading.

      • Stuart Munro 17.3.1
        12 May 2023 at 6:03 pm

        It's only hugely complicated because govt. doesn't want to do it.

        • alwyn 17.3.1.1
          12 May 2023 at 6:22 pm

          The best thing about our GST system is that is universal and it is very easy to calculate. The second you introduce any exemptions the lawyers start salivating.

          They had a situation in the UK where adult clothes were included but children's ones were exempt. The only way that you could really decide on the difference was by their size. For skirts it was the length from waste to hem. Then the mini skirt arrived and all the fashionable women got off scot free.

          In Australia is GST exempt unless it isn't. Try looking at what is and what is not taxable. The list goes on forever.

          https://www.ato.gov.au/law/view/document?DocID=GII/GSTIIFL1/NAT/ATO/00001

        • Belladonna 17.3.1.2
          12 May 2023 at 6:30 pm

          And also because there is no guarantee that the tax rebate would be passed on to the consumer.
          Certainly not with the current supermarket duopoly.

          There is also the issue that the absolutely poorest families can't afford fresh fruit and veg even before the recent price hikes. So it becomes middle class welfare.

          And, why should imported out-of-season asparagus or limes – able to be afforded only by the wealthy – be exempt from tax?

          It all sounds easy and 'fair' until you dive into the detail.

      • Anker 17.3.2
        12 May 2023 at 7:05 pm

        Not to mention the loss of revenue from GST coming off food (don't get me wrong I don't think it should be on food in the first place). I read somewhere it covers the whole of our education bill (but don't quote me 100% on that).

        Husband whose Maori doesn't want a bar of any of this stuff.

        • bwaghorn 17.3.2.1
          12 May 2023 at 7:31 pm

          ""Husband whose Maori doesn't want a bar of any of this stuff.

          Interesting!

          As one who has no regular contact with Maori (or anyone to be honest)I do wonder how popular these radicals are.

          They seem to be courting the angry brown vote, guess we'll see how big that is come October.

          • Belladonna 17.3.2.1.1
            12 May 2023 at 7:39 pm

            Based on their polling, around 2-3% of the voter base – way less than the Maori population they are claiming to represent.

          • Thinker 17.3.2.1.2
            13 May 2023 at 9:03 am

            According to an earlier post, 33632 in 2020.

            Ditto, Maori make up 17% of 5,000,000, which is 850,000.

            So, at a high level, we can say about 96% of Maori don't go for this.

            Another point not really considered is how this separatist government will be funded.

            At the moment, the Crown it supposes to turn it's back on provides significant funding. That may be necessary for the present tines.

            However, a separatist government that rejects Crown interference and (for want of a better term) patriarchy must surely have the goal of being separately funded, presumably by taxing all Maori by virtue of them being on the Maori roll (they wouldn't contribute to the Crown government).

            Passports, foreign relations and a whole lot of other complications that haven't been discussed.

            Anything less would be the creation of an Uncle Tom government, "allowed" to identify as separatist but in reality still tied to the apron strings of the Crown.

            IMHO.

        • RedLogix 17.3.2.2
          12 May 2023 at 7:40 pm

          Same here. A close mate in Brisbane who strongly identifies as Maori has nothing but visceral contempt for this separatist irredentism. So much so it isn't a safe topic of conversation.

          But I do accept that n=1 does not make for useful electoral predictions.

      • joseph 17.3.3
        14 May 2023 at 10:16 am

        False. No gst on anything that can be eaten. That's everything sugar, fizzy drinks, chips, donuts, meat, flour, puha and brocolli. No carve outs for ingredients or so called non-healthy food. If you can eat it and it's sold at retail, supermarkets, dairies, fruit shops, cake shops, butchers, restaurants, fast food franchises then no gst charged to the consumer. Really it's too simple. The rich hate the idea because its a progressive tax mechanism so claim it’s too complex.

  18. James Simpson 18
    12 May 2023 at 10:52 am

    What if any of those things are bottom lines for them?

    I can now see why National has ruled them out. How can Labour contemplate working with them, if these fundamental changes to our constitution are on the table?

  19. tWiggle 19
    12 May 2023 at 11:20 am

    According to Stats NZ, Māori made up 17% of the population in 2021. Average age at 27 was 10 years younger than the rest of the population. TMP rightly point out that Māori and Pasifika entering the workforce will be supporting an equivalent number of Pākeha boomers when we reach pension age. Don’t bite the hand…

    There's a lot of emphasis in TMP policy on localising Maori power, as opposed to monolith tribal identities. TMP are differentiating themselves from a 'Maori elite' who feature big in political sway and control of settlement resources, and who haven't been even-handed in allocating out power and money. TMP have also said they resent sidelining by Labour, who conference with an internal Maori Labour group rather than TPM being the go-to group. The push of this Labour government around Maori-focused change has stepped somewhat on TMP's USP to Maori voters.

    Hence TMP's recent high media visibility in international Indigenous fora, and their policy emphasis on direct funding of Māori organisations and businesses at local level. TMP coalition stance is quite separate, as can be seen from Stuff's article: gst off food, political neutrality and removal of monarchy.

    • bwaghorn 19.1
      12 May 2023 at 3:54 pm

      "". TMP rightly point out that Māori and Pasifika entering the workforce will be supporting an equivalent number of Pākeha boomers when we reach pension age. Don’t bite the hand…

      Tmp point out that they are divisive clowns, we’re all kiwis

      • Anker 19.1.1
        12 May 2023 at 7:08 pm

        100% Bwagon.

        And of course boomers contribueted during their life time as tax payers, etc etc

        • bwaghorn 19.1.1.1
          12 May 2023 at 7:34 pm

          I did typed that I'd paid tax for 30 odd years so far and have 15 years atleast to go ,(hopefully) before I can rest my worn bits. But thought it sounded bitter but last we forget

      • tWiggle 19.1.2
        12 May 2023 at 8:37 pm

        Disagree with you there, bwaghorn. I think it's a highly pertinent point. The wording is mine, not their's, by the way.

        Don't know how long you plan on picking up your pension, but by 2043, the Asian population is estimated to be 26%, and Māori population around 20%, with European at 64%. Meanwhile, "in 2018, Māori represented 27 percent of New Zealand's youngest 0–14 years age group but only 7 percent of the 65+ years age group."

        That means that, assuming the ratios haven't changed significantly, with a superannuitant population in 2020 of 770,000, drawing $425 pw for 52 weeks, gives a super payout of 17 bi pa. Only 1.1 bi of that goes to Māori, even though they pay tax etc, like the rest of us. If it were pro rata'd to the current population it should be closer to $2.8 bi. Some of the TMP money ask seems a lot more reasonable now, doesn't it?

        I have thought that a large part of Labour's push for pro-Māori initiatives is to covertly strengthen the constitutional and societal influence of pre-2000's NZ citizens, both Māori and non-Māori. The 0.5 mi resident applications (which may include family visas) issued in the past 20 years mean a big societal shift, but also a political shift, as residents have full political say in our nation's future.

        It has to be sub-text, because a re-evaluation of resident voting rights (residents who have zero obligation to understand the Treaty, or NZ's history, unlike new citizens) will clearly have to take place within one electoral cycle.

        All this suggests a strengthened Māori political presence may provide a safety net for all us 'old' NZers. I have no problem with a multi-cultural NZ, in fact I like it a lot, having lived in Mt Roskill. I have zero tolerance for 'Great Replacement' concepts and the superiority of Western ideas. But I am keen to roll over the best values, of fairness, social justice and ingenuity from our past NZ society into the future.

  20. roy cartland 20
    12 May 2023 at 11:39 am

    At first it looks demanding, but have another look after we've vented a bit – it's not actually that radical:

    1. good luck with that; what does it even mean, now that you can ID as maori, without whakapapa in many areas?
    2. Fine, but what if more are needed? Leave that open.
    3. Plenty of countries have bicameral and separate parliaments we could look to for guidance.
    4. Haven't looked closely sorry
    5. What's so bad about that?
    6. Ditto
    7. Well of course
    8. Ditto
    9. Sure, with the proviso that these are not 'private' or 'businesses', great
    10. What's so bad about that?
    11. Ditto
    12. Ditto

    Aotearoa name is easy enough; the only good thing about NZ is that Z is a recognisable letter.

    Ask oneself, are these really that bad compared to the toxic free-for-all we have now?

    • RedLogix 20.1
      12 May 2023 at 1:34 pm

      9.Sure, with the proviso that these are not 'private' or 'businesses', great

      Well not too many people understand that effectively two major National Parks in the North Island have already been privatised into family owned businesses and that at least one of them – Te Urewera has turned into a hot mess with the Trust that now controls this magnificent area pretty much asserting full rights as the owner of the land to do with as they please.

      And while it is well and good for Maori corporations or private trusts to make assurances around public access and conservation as part of their negotiations today – but as we can see elsewhere TMP explicitly repudiate the idea of 'full and final settlements'. These undertakings can and will be overturned at any time in the future.

      • alwyn 20.1.1
        12 May 2023 at 6:28 pm

        The Whanganui river is about to join the list. For the period from 5 January to 17 January it will be reserved for the local iwi. Only for a couple of weeks next year but I bet it will increase.

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/whanganui-chronicle/news/iwi-set-to-reserve-parts-of-whanganui-river-for-annual-tribal-journey/P7RMRBL6Q5GYXJDF4RW5QISDMI/

        • bwaghorn 20.1.1.1
          12 May 2023 at 7:36 pm

          Right in the middle of the summer school holidays ,

          • RedLogix 20.1.1.1.1
            12 May 2023 at 7:42 pm

            Not to worry – I'm sure the paying guests of the local iwi will have no problems.devil

          • tWiggle 20.1.1.1.2
            12 May 2023 at 8:55 pm

            Convienient for iwi members dispersed round the country to bring their families back in order to connect with their roots.

            • bwaghorn 20.1.1.1.2.1
              12 May 2023 at 10:12 pm

              In segregation

              • tWiggle …
                13 May 2023 at 6:43 am

                Like the rich gated communities in BOP, and the exclusive golf courses up North? Try using the beach around them. You're obviously OK with segregation when it's to do with the colour of your money.

                • bwaghorn …
                  13 May 2023 at 7:29 am

                  You seem to be putting words into my keyboard, not ok with private beaches, private land the owners can do what they want on,including Maori.

                  While I'm a bit depressed by the storys I here of te uruwera declining rapidly deep down I think it's theirs, always was,

                  • tWiggle …
                    13 May 2023 at 8:20 am

                    I made my point for a bit of balance. I agree with you, it's really sad when people tasked with running something do a shit job, because of poor leadership, poor public messaging, or corruption. However, the Urewa story has been pushed by some not as an example of a shit job that needs calling out and fixing, but to 'tar' all such setups with this same shitty brush.

      • Hunter Thompson II 20.1.2
        14 May 2023 at 11:14 am

        Our PM clearly thinks he can accommodate TPM's aspirations along with those of the Maori element in caucus.

        Just as the German industrial barons thought they could control Hitler in the 1930s.

        • RedLogix 20.1.2.1
          14 May 2023 at 11:51 am

          Hitler comparisons usually skate on pretty thin ice – and this one is no exception. Yet there is a lesson to be taken from it, that Hitler's monstrous rise to power was not just due to the Nazi's historical revisionism and invoking of racial superiority – but that in the aftermath of WW1 and the chaos of the 1920's, ordinary Germans simply lost faith and confidence in who they were as a people.

          They lacked the will and belief in themselves to resist this noisy political minority with a radical agenda that was rapidly capturing all their social and political institutions. German society largely succumbed to the Nazi virus without much of a fight.

          Because if New Zealand is to avoid being sucked down this pathological path, it is going to take careful thought and personal courage to speak out against it. You will for a start be labelled, then attacked as a racist or white supremacist. All the government institutions are thoroughly captured by this agenda, the media will be against you. Employers and professional organisations will destroy your income if they perceive the slightest risk to their business or brand value. Most people will consider their family, their mortgage and stay silent hoping the storm will pass them by.

          As we have seen with the gender critical debate – the handful willing to stand up for what they believe find their former tribes and esrtwhile allies melt away, leaving them isolated and not a little vulnerable. It takes care and courage to survive this.

          Because it is not just enough to say no to dangerous radicals, you must also have something better to offer. And to explain it better.

  21. tsmithfield 21
    12 May 2023 at 12:21 pm

    One major worry for Labour must be the prospect of tactical voting to ensure TMP is not part of an upcoming government. If that happens, it could turn into a landslide for National of similar proportions to that Labour experienced at the last election.

    • roy cartland 21.1
      12 May 2023 at 12:34 pm

      From whom though? Swing Labour voters?

      • tsmithfield 21.1.1
        12 May 2023 at 1:01 pm

        Potentially. Or undecideds. Many thought, at the last election, that a lot of National voters (believing that National was stuffed anyway) voted Labour to keep the Greens out of government.

        I don't think there was any way to prove that idea. But, it isn't at all surprising that voters might vote tactically in the right circumstances.

        • Craig H 21.1.1.1
          12 May 2023 at 2:20 pm

          For all the anecdotes about it, political polls didn't move after the election. If there were a bunch of National supporters who held their nose to vote Labour to avoid the Greens, their support in post-election polling would have reverted to National quickly. Maybe it was justification after the fact or one factor among many, but it doesn't appear to have had much of an impact in and of itself.

        • Belladonna 21.1.1.2
          12 May 2023 at 2:29 pm

          I don't think that tactical voting was a strong characteristic of the 2020 election. It really does seem to have been a personal vote of confidence in Ardern – and her performance during Covid.

          The theory is that there are about 25% of voters who are die-hard Labour and the same for National (percentages might be a little out – but that's the ballpark). These people are tribal voters – it doesn't matter what the policy platform is, or who the leader is – they vote for their tribe. Even when the party vote collapses – there will still be a rump in parliament.

          Greens have around 5-6% historically – who are tribal voters. [It will be interesting to see if that changes in this election]

          ACT traditionally had a very small tribal vote 1-2% – but Seymour seems to be turning this around in the last couple of elections — still don't know how many of these are tribal, and how many voting for policies. We really need a couple more electioncycles to see.

          That leaves a large chunk of swing voters – who change their vote depending on a mix of factors: media coverage, zeitgeist, leadership and (running a long way last) policies.

          Some of those voters do vote strategically to keep another party and/or coalition partners out of power, or to act as a handbrake on the major coalition partner.

          Traditionally they tended to vote for centrist parties of some kind (NZF, United Future, etc.).

          In the upcoming election, we have no centrist parties (unless NZF makes a miraculous recovery…. which with Peters is always possible). So those swing voters, pretty much have a choice of centre Left (Labour) or centre Right (National). They are motivated by fear of the 'policy drag' that potential coalition partners (Greens, TPM) or ACT might exert.

          • roy cartland 21.1.1.2.1
            12 May 2023 at 4:20 pm

            Greens: I predict fewer tribals, more policy's (if they can get coherent around those). I don't feel particularly part of any current tribe in the GP, and their policies are getting lost among the (reported) idiotic outbursts and fighting

    • Mac1 21.2
      12 May 2023 at 1:12 pm

      I think, tsmithfield, there is a similar argument for saying that if you vote National, you get ACT policies. It's a tactic in these days of coalition MMP politics.

      Of course, at the moment National is skirting the outer reaches of their voter demographic's possible rightist beliefs in order to capture back some of the vote they are currently losing to ACT.

      Then, National will swing its policy back to the centre ground where it is vulnerable to Labour, as 2020 showed.

      But ACT's policies will remain, to continue as a deterrent to reasonable and centrist voters.

      • tsmithfield 21.2.1
        12 May 2023 at 1:18 pm

        Sure. There is that argument. I guess it depends whether voters find the thought of a NACT coalition scarier than a Labour/Greens/TMP coalition.

    • Sanctuary 21.3
      12 May 2023 at 1:33 pm

      I actually agree with this. A radical and irredentist TPM determined to play mischief and blackmail the settler state by constantly trying to hold the government to ransom would eventually trigger an election, either by withdrawing confidence and supply or the government simply declaring the country is ungovernable.

      The following election would most likely see quite the backlash from voters against the TPM – which could be a Bolshevik agenda their radical wing would quite like.

      • RedLogix 21.3.1
        12 May 2023 at 1:40 pm

        A radical and irredentist TPM determined to play mischief and blackmail the settler state

        And there lies the core of the issue. New Zealand, like many other western nations, have been subject to decades of psychological manipulation triggering a 'colonising guilt' that undermines our will to action. Or as Chris Trotter has pointedly suggested more than a few times – does New Zealand even have the will to resist this mischief?

        Contrast this to the Ukrainians who seem to have an unlimited belief in themselves.

        • tWiggle 21.3.1.1
          12 May 2023 at 9:40 pm

          In fact, Zelenskyy's extremely popular comedy troup over decades built up a new sense of what it meant to be Ukranian. Traditionally Ukraine has been a low-trust, corrupt society where you looked after yourself first, and where national identity was fragmented. The article is a fascinating read.

          Politico looks at Zelenskyy's contribution to Ukraine society pre-election

          "…in the years following Russia’s 2014 invasion, Zelenskyy and his comedy troupe depicted a different way to be a member of Ukrainian society. Their entertainment told the truth about politics and everyday life even when the stakes of doing so were high, but they also consistently embodied and articulated humanistic values. As stage performers watched by millions, Zelenskyy and his troupe promoted an inclusive pro-Ukrainian vision that elevated local identities, embraced all Ukrainians regardless of what language they spoke at home, and leaned into agonism: a politics where democracy is about argument and struggle, not agreement."

          Love that last bit- maybe we can pick up some tips.

          • RedLogix 21.3.1.1.1
            12 May 2023 at 10:14 pm

            A very good article – thank you. Our situation here in NZ is different in many respects, but the underlying story of an unravelling social cohesion is not dissimilar. And in some ways Ukraine is perversely fortunate in having an external force to unite them as a people. And yes Zelensky is a remarkable individual who represents something many of us in a somewhat decadent, cynical West have thought could never happen again.

            Diversity is only a positive value when it is combined with a unified common purpose and values. And vice versa.

            All the cultures in New Zealand have much to learn from each other if we are going to build a future worth having.

            • tWiggle 21.3.1.1.1.1
              12 May 2023 at 10:50 pm

              I'm glad you liked the article, RL. My Mum's good mate married a Ukranian. He had a number on his arm, had been in a German camp (Orthodox, not Jew). We used to holiday with their family. I realise now he must have survived the Holdomar as well. He was incredibly tough, insular, and cynical. Easy to see how national history shapes national character.

      • SPC 21.3.2
        12 May 2023 at 7:35 pm

        Why would TPM provide and then withdraw confidence and supply? No other party has done this.

        And the only party subject to any backlash would be the one governing, if they agreed to demands the electorate found untenable.

        But most of this is sorted at the formation of a three year government.

        TPM have already indicated they realise their policy demands would not be agreed to by L or N and thus will sit on the cross benches, rather than be part of any coalition.

        What their terms, for confidence and supply are, is the unknown.

  22. RedLogix 22
    12 May 2023 at 1:25 pm

    Excellent OP. I read it carefully Ad and applaud your even-handed treatment. Reading any sort of consistency into these TMP policies isn't easy, as soon as you apply some scrutiny, as a few people above have, the contradictions and things left unsaid become apparent.

    The Māori Party rededicate ourselves to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, a covenant entered into by our people and the Crown, starting with a meeting of our northern Māori leadership on the 6th February 1840 at Waitangi.

    We distil the three clauses of a constitutional document that is the foundation of this country’s nationhood. Te Tiriti reaffirmed our precolonial mana motuhake rights:

    • The first article of the covenant awarded total custodianship of Aotearoa to the Crown. It did not award ownership.
    • The second article put beyond all doubt the assertion of Rangatiratanga – the right of Māori to have total control and governance of all their own domains.
    • The third article asserted that Māori would be treated equally with all non-Māori.

    https://www.maoriparty.org.nz/mana_motuhake

    This Executive Summary section crystallises the underlying radicalism. The two words that I have highlighted – custodianship and ownership – are the key to unlocking an understanding of this policy mess.

    What is being said here is an assertion of haputanga – the full and undiluted ownership and control of all of New Zealand by the precolonial Maori tribes and families, while all other New Zealanders are subjects of the Crown who is merely a custodial tenant.

    The other truly radical re-interpretation lies in the third para, the usually uncontroversial idea that Maori became citizens of the British Crown and enjoyed all the same legal rights as everyone else. Well this citizenship concept has been erased and replaced with a very unspecific requirement for Maori to be 'treated equally'. While that seems reasonable on the face of it, it sets the ground for full separatism by race.

    Read in conjunction with the demand to separate out Maori onto a different electoral roll, establish a Maori Parliament and it becomes clear the ground is being set for anyone with Maori ancestry to cease being New Zealanders – and become subjects of their original hapu.

    Read all three sections together and it can readily be seen that UNDRIP mechanism is being mis-used to justify demanding superior political rights for Maori, especially the tribal elites who wield a largely hereditary, unaccountable authority, over all other New Zealanders.

    Now you can accuse me of fearmongering if you want – but this is precisely and exactly the understanding given to me by a senior and well known member of the NZ Maori Council in a private – non political conversation – in the late 1980's. And he is not really considered all that radical.

    On explaining this to me I somewhat naively asked "What about all the other non-Maori who live here?". He replied, "Oh I think you will find Maori will be reasonably generous hosts, you can stay as long as you pay the rent".

    • Ad 22.1
      12 May 2023 at 1:38 pm

      I would vote against any coalition proposal that put up handing back great swathes of the conservation estate back to Maori.

      I like the effective co-governance arrangements we have in place within the National Park legislation.

      But holy mackerel the quick degeneration of what was Uruwera National Park into private tribal hands just makes me really sad. There are some awesome iwi partnerships in particular the North Taranaki Mount Messenger massive 6,000ha pest-free initiative don't get me wrong.

      But I want this country to be for all of us.

      • RedLogix 22.1.1
        12 May 2023 at 2:03 pm

        I would vote against any coalition proposal that put up handing back great swathes of the conservation estate back to Maori.

        You have not had that opportunity so far, why do you think you will even be allowed to vote on this? On an personal note this is the matter that triggers me more than any other. The idea that Maori have a superior spiritual connection to this land over all others, is racist claptrap of the most pernicious kind.

        I like the effective co-governance arrangements we have in place within the National Park legislation.

        A close and highly regarded mate of mine was instrumental in the original negotiations in the 2000's between DoC and Tuhoe. There is no question that integrating the voice of the local people into DoC's management of the Park would have been a necessary and good thing. But he passed away some years ago now, and would be heartbroken at how it has turned out.

    • tsmithfield 22.2
      12 May 2023 at 1:39 pm

      Red, I think that Labour's best strategy is to emphatically rule out entering into any sort of deal (including confidence and supply) with TMP. Because, a lot voters are going to run a mile from even the sniff of this stuff impacting their lives going forward.

      • Craig H 22.2.1
        12 May 2023 at 2:24 pm

        If it's 58-all or 59-all with TPM as the deciding votes, it would be brave to rule them out. If both parties ruled them out, would that mean we have to have another election, or just that one of the groups has to find a way to work with TPM on confidence and supply on every individual vote rather than agreeing with them up front? Or just ignore them and hope they don't just bring the government down early?

        • Belladonna 22.2.1.1
          12 May 2023 at 2:33 pm

          The only other alternative would be a grand coalition between Labour and National.

          No, I don't think so, either….

          • roy cartland 22.2.1.1.1
            12 May 2023 at 4:23 pm

            Well they coaligned on seabed mining, don't be so sure. A GRAND-CO would really spill the beans on the sorry state of this country's politics.

          • newsense 22.2.1.1.2
            13 May 2023 at 1:30 am

            National: do nothing about climate change and say f- it, nothing we can do.

            Labour: do nothing about climate change and wring hands, saying ‘oh dear, oh dear’

            The sad thing is that many of them would go very well together.

            It would be a fascinating point for our politics if it happened, and probably only benefit National, as Labour have been trying to box out the centre and win this way for some time.

        • tsmithfield 22.2.1.2
          12 May 2023 at 3:09 pm

          Probably one issue that would make it very difficult for Labour to do that is that Labour may face more Maori mps jumping ship if Labour were to rule out TMP.

          So, it is a bit of a tough spot for Labour I think.

        • SPC 22.2.1.3
          12 May 2023 at 7:57 pm

          Confidence and supply votes are for 3 years.

          National governed by confidence and supply 2008-2017 and Labour-NZ 2017-2020.

          There were no issues with ACT or United/TPM (2008-2017). Was this only because there was the alternative? There was no problem 2017-2020, is that because Greens were uniquely reliable?

          The only reason why people might suspect TPM as being any different is because their support comes from Maori voters. The only backlash they have faced is from going with National (in 2017).

      • SPC 22.2.2
        12 May 2023 at 7:46 pm

        Typical right wing thinking.

        Back in 2005 the Herald demanded no government involving Greens.

        There was no problem 2017-2020 when a L-NZF government was backed with confidence and supply from Greens.

        And by the way National has never dependent on ACT to form a government before (as they had United and MP as other alternatives for confidence and supply and thus could play them off against each other).

        The compromises National make could determine if voters ever trust that arrangement again – electoral backlash.

        • Belladonna 22.2.2.1
          12 May 2023 at 7:53 pm

          But there was also no issue with the Green MOU with National in 2009

          https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/national-welcomes-working-relationship-greens

          I think this election – whichever way it goes at the end of the year – is going to see a comparatively large 'tail' wagging the main party dog.

          • SPC 22.2.2.1.1
            12 May 2023 at 8:11 pm

            That decision in 2009, was to underline the fact that National was a one party government and had relationships with multiple support partners.

            I think this election – whichever way it goes at the end of the year – is going to see a comparatively large 'tail' wagging the main party dog.

            Greens and ACT voters will hope so. TPM is already playing a longer game – having demands no one will meet and seeking the cross benches and being available for confidence and supply only.

            My own suspicion is that NZF will seek to play kingmaker and only offer confidence and supply to a National government (thus block a NACT coalition). And effectively having a veto over National's confidence and supply agreement with ACT.

            And given TPM have not ruled out confidence and supply to National they could even join NZF in doing this and possibly have enough votes to cut out ACT entirely.

            That in the end would be the alternative to a L-G coalition backed with confidence and supply from TPM.

            • Belladonna 22.2.2.1.1.1
              13 May 2023 at 10:51 am

              If Peters manages to get NZF across the line – then this would be a possible scenario.

              Although, given current polling, I think it highly unlikely that National could form a minority government with confidence and supply from NZF and possibly TPM – without ACT in the mix. There would have to be a very considerable shake up of the current percentages for this to be viable.

              ACT is currently scoring around 10-12% on the polls, whereas NZF isn't breaking the 5% margin at this stage (with no electorate seat, so not in parliament). TPM are around 3-4% – and would have at least one electorate seat – so definitely in parliament.

              In order for National to form a minority government, with confidence and supply as outlined above, they'd have to be gaining around 45% – which I think is highly unlikely. Or NZF and TPM would have to at least double their current polling figures – primarily at the expense of ACT, which again I think is unlikely – or benefit from an implosion from Labour/Greens – which I don't think is on the cards.

              I think it highly unlikely. But, no doubt we'll all see in October (or November if the coalition talks drag on)

        • tsmithfield 22.2.2.2
          12 May 2023 at 10:00 pm

          Look, you may be right, theoretically. And I am not looking at this so much from a right wing perspective. But, rather, from a centre swing perspective. I think there is a lot of fear about the unknown, and this case, what is known.

          Whether that fear is rational I think is the point you are addressing. But, I am saying that the fear is there, rational or not. And, I think that is the problem that Labour has to grapple with.

  23. AB 23
    12 May 2023 at 1:36 pm

    Impossible, impractical and divisive radicalism is what you breed if you don't act on problems soon enough. That seems to be the contradiction at the heart of centrism – you create the conditions where the electorate will replace you with the far right as a defence against rising left/ethnic radicalism. Not an easy dilemma to find a way out of.

    • tsmithfield 23.1
      12 May 2023 at 1:40 pm

      Impossible, impractical and divisive radicalism is what you breed if you don't act on problems soon enough.

      True that. But here we are now.

  24. Tiger Mountain 24
    12 May 2023 at 2:29 pm

    Codger comments here are not that encouraging, but…there is a generational change underway this decade whether you like it or not. Fear and loathing is not the reaction many younger people have towards Māori aspiration and capacity building.

    • RedLogix 24.1
      12 May 2023 at 2:35 pm

      How about just stating openly what YOU believe here. Are you endorsing this separatist TMP policy as laid out here?

      For example – are you supporting the privatising of the entire Conservation Estate into private tribal corporations and trusts?

      • tWiggle 24.1.1
        12 May 2023 at 10:14 pm

        TPM hardly represent all Māori in Parliament, in government, or in the electorate. Don't generalise the aims of Māori as a race from TPM's policies. And, as pointed out, they ARE entitled to their political position.

        Frankly, I'd rather have TMP wagging a Labour-Green dog than ACT being the tail of National. ACT small-state policies will degrade our political and social landscape far more rapidly, and with far less chance of being fixable, than a TMP alternative.

        • RedLogix 24.1.1.1
          12 May 2023 at 10:36 pm

          Don't generalise the aims of Māori as a race from TPM's policies.

          True – and I fully understand that. But the logical corollary of this is that being opposed to TPM policy does not automatically imply someone must be racist.

          But otherwise this looks like it's going to be the first election where the possibility of two radical parties gaining serious leverage over govt looks like a real possibility.

          Still I note that my question remains unanswered. Would you support the privatising of the entire Conservation Estate?

          • tWiggle 24.1.1.1.1
            12 May 2023 at 11:30 pm

            I see TMP's policies as a wishlist, and TMP as a ginger group. Like burn the bra feminists in the 70's, it is valuable to incremental societal change to have a minority who challenge the middle with the extreme.

            Nowdays, it seems to be called shifting the Overton window. With social media, for example, a few far-right figures have pulled NZ society toward more hateful positions in only a year or two.

            I can see now, with your personal experiences, why you are distrustful of TMP policies. Fair enough, and I appreciate the context you provide, it deepens the discourse.

            No, I don't support return of all conservation estates to Māori tribal control. But I do support successful co-governance models like that of the Waikato river. I also don't believe that there is no dodgy dealing by some Māori, that they are all pure at heart. That ignores human nature, and also Māori history.

            But I admire, and have been round long enough to see the constant reframing and testing of strategies by Māori to improve their standing in NZ from the bottom where they mostly were. If that means pushing for conservation of natural resources by claiming a spiritual connection, it may not be logical, but it's excellent branding.

            In my town, Māori make up 20% of the population, but until I looked up the stats recently, I was barely aware of this. They do not make up 20% of councillors, as they probably should. Local Māori concerns are hardly raised in the media, and there's often a backlash if they are. So I feel that Māori as a group deserve some edge in our society, and don't consider it racist, because it's hard to see our own privilege.

            • RedLogix 24.1.1.1.1.1
              13 May 2023 at 12:33 am

              No, I don't support return of all conservation estates to Māori tribal control.

              Good – I appreciate that. I am old enough to have encountered the last of the old NZFS bushman culture, Maori pig hunters and possumers, and even that archetypal rogue Barry Crump in the back country. And over the years hundreds of seemingly random encounters with fellow kiwis – savouring a fireside, a rough cooked meal and good company in a rough camp or secluded hut.

              Sharing those old huts, now increasingly rare, is hard to explain to those who have not been there. For a start anyone who has made the effort to get there has broken down the 'stranger barrier'. You share that much in common. You share shelter, cooking and sleeping space. On a really wet miserable night you can actually cram 24 people into a 6 bunk NZFS hut, and everyone is fine with it because no-one is going to be left outside.

              The simple physical act of getting into boots and shouldering a pack triggers in me a shift of perspective; the everyday world is cast off and left behind. For a few hours, days or even weeks life will be simplified down to the four concerns of weather, terrain, gear and skill. If you are in a group, you are going to be closer to them for a while than being married. If you are on your own, the experience becomes meditatively intense.

              Stepping away from the comforts and compromises of civilisation, compels a confrontation with reality. You cannot evade the landscape, the weather and your own limitations. If you are not honest with them, if you lie to yourself – you can easily die. Sometimes it is just one bad step away.

              And this is nothing unusual really. It is how our ancestors lived almost all the time; it is how billions still live in this world:

              I once made a journey to Maungapohatu in the spiritual heart of Te Urewera. It was in some ways a confounding experience, like many before me the guardians of this deeply significant place played tricks – until they had suitably humbled me. Another times my partner and I undertook a very remote journey into the heart of the Huiarau Range, deep into goblin forest that few ever get to. Experiences like this are not ordinary and shape something primal inside of us.

              I once had a good friend say to me in a very loveable Polish accent "New Zealand, it is small on the map, yet it is big on the inside". She had come here expecting to be here a few weeks, and six months later was still delighting in our backcountry, greedily absorbed in the mystery.

              And I am surely not on my own with this. I know there are hundreds of thousands of kiwis from all walks of life who have a connection to our land that is meaningful to all of us, at so many levels. And the older you get the more nuanced and complex it becomes. I have lived and worked in Australia for a decade now, but I terribly miss this aspect of the country my family belongs to.

              So if anything I can fully empathise with an expressed desire from Maori to have their voice heard on their view of the land. But the Conservation Estate is a universal treasure that is the heritage of all New Zealanders – not the property of a select few to do with as they please. This has to be conducted as a win-win conversation that we all have confidence in – because failure will cut very deep and bitterly.

        • Shanreagh 24.1.1.2
          13 May 2023 at 10:18 am

          Frankly, I'd rather have TMP wagging a Labour-Green dog than ACT being the tail of National. ACT small-state policies will degrade our political and social landscape far more rapidly, and with far less chance of being fixable, than a TMP alternative.

          I agree tWiggle. And who knows we might just get some good ideas/policies as a result of these arrangements.

          I think trying to count on some party being able to negotiate with National to cut out ACT would be less desirable than having Labour in a postion to govern helped by agreements from the Greens & TPM. And these agreement might bring forth some good ideas.

          • RedLogix 24.1.1.2.1
            13 May 2023 at 12:33 pm

            On one hand you have not pointed to any actual TMP policy you would support, and on the other you say you approve of them becoming part of a coalition govt.

            More than a whiff of wishful thinking going on here.

    • newsense 24.2
      13 May 2023 at 1:35 am

      Can Morgan Godfrey and John Tamihere or at least people who represent similar philosophies both exist in the same party?

      Tamihere is all overseas the map politically and as party president is oddly vocal about policy, when the party already has two leaders. Godfrey has been a thoughtful left wing commentator for some time, but surely closer to that aspirational Maori youth vote than JT.

  25. LawfulN 25
    12 May 2023 at 2:33 pm

    I consider myself reasonably progressive when it comes to indigenous rights, but with a few exceptions this reads like the ravings of a lunatic.

    • RedLogix 25.1
      12 May 2023 at 2:38 pm

      It is not ravings, nor lunatic. It just seems that way to you because it has been carefully kept out of the view of most New Zealanders for decades. It has been a work in progress on a number of fronts since the 1980's. In a different life I associated with some of these people, in a completely different non-political context.

      But finally they believe they hold enough institutional and political clout to start making their demands out in the open.

      • LawfulN 25.1.1
        12 May 2023 at 3:16 pm

        So they want a parliament, just like the Scots or Welsh. The problem with that is that those parliaments set rules for well-defined geographic areas. Similarly, with the Canadian province of Quebec. No such geographic area exists for Māori that they would all want to live in. Without a well-defined and easily policed boundary (of which ethnicity is not) of any kind, this policy is a non-starter.

        • pat 25.1.1.1
          12 May 2023 at 3:26 pm

          "So they want a parliament,"….the real question is who the 'they' are (or represent)?

          There is a certainly a vocal and seemingly politically influential group making statements, however as noted earlier the level of support is negligible….the Maori population is est 900,000 in NZ currently and they attracted 33,000 votes last outing…..hardly a ringing endorsement of their policy proposals.

          • Liberty Belle 25.1.1.1.1
            12 May 2023 at 4:30 pm

            And yet our electoral system may well hand them power well out of proportion to that support.

            • pat 25.1.1.1.1.1
              12 May 2023 at 4:35 pm

              It may….that risk (for the voters) exists for all the participants however.

        • RedLogix 25.1.1.2
          12 May 2023 at 5:14 pm

          The problem with that is that those parliaments set rules for well-defined geographic areas.

          And that is only one of the issues. The other is of course the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments are founded on universal suffrage in their territory – not so a Maori Parliament.

        • alwyn 25.1.1.3
          12 May 2023 at 6:34 pm

          "The problem with that is that those parliaments set rules for well-defined geographic areas."

          There is a perfectly clearly defined geographical area. It is the whole on New Zealand as we know it. TPM consider that they own the lot.

  26. LawfulN 26
    12 May 2023 at 3:05 pm

    I've heard this sort of stuff from people like that for years (often at universities, which shows you how realistic it is). It's fine to chat about – but that's about it. If they want to burn the institutional and political clout they already have, these risible and contemptible suggestions are a good way to go about it.

    None of these are sensible proposals for any country, anywhere. It's juvenile, fantasy politics from people who should know better (although there's a lot of that around these days). They might as well be advocating yogic flying or the legalisation of recreational fentanyl.

  27. mary_a 27
    12 May 2023 at 4:06 pm

    I see in John Tamahere's statement that TPM want to break with the Monarchy (The Crown). A move such as that really needs to be thought through thoroughly, because it will surely have some bearing on the Tiriti o Waitangi!

    • RedLogix 27.1
      12 May 2023 at 5:18 pm

      I think the big strategy is to leverage the Treaty as far as they can, then ditch it in favour of an argument for full political and economic tribal hegemony based on their interpretation of the UNDRIP.

    • newsense 27.2
      13 May 2023 at 1:51 am

      None whatsoever. Thank you for your concern though!

    • Joseph 27.3
      14 May 2023 at 10:40 am

      It's unlikely Maori would want to break with the crown until there is either heaps more Maori population growth or significantly more intermarriage browning of the population. Currently the Treaty Crown relationship allows Maori to exert some control of their Pakeha. Without the crown the treaty is at risk of becoming null.

  28. Stuart Munro 28
    12 May 2023 at 6:12 pm

    Meh – it's a list to ginger up the base and offend everybody else.

    TPM will promise everything and deliver nothing but increased resentment and unrealistic demands. Then they will pull a Putin and blame everyone but themselves.

    This is not a path that leads to better government, or even better outcomes for Maori.

    And the wanker should ditch the cowboy hat.

    • RedLogix 28.1
      12 May 2023 at 6:28 pm

      While I agree with some of your sentiment, esp re the hat, it would be a mistake to underestimate the serious intent behind this. We don't have to look too far to see this same 'decolonisation' agenda playing out:

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/489611/decolonisation-must-continue-new-caledonia-independence-campaigner

      A hot mess that serves as an instructive lesson – political failure driven by divisive ideologies.

      • Hunter Thompson II 28.1.1
        13 May 2023 at 9:43 am

        Odd that he wears a cowboy hat (I assume it is) when those hats were worn by the gunslingers who helped "win the West", forcing out the American Indian tribes.

        Perhaps he just thinks he looks cool.

        • newsense 28.1.1.1
          13 May 2023 at 5:33 pm

          I mean, he does look cool, right?

          It’s not an affectation of someone trying something out. It comes across as very genuine.

          And while I have been watching all my Maorioke recently, I think Maori have an odd passing acquaintance with country music…

        • joseph 28.1.1.2
          14 May 2023 at 10:44 am

          Just assumed he's bald like the rest of us who like wearing hats inside.

    • alwyn 28.2
      12 May 2023 at 6:40 pm

      As someone who has a bit of Spanish heritage I think he should cut out the cultural imperialism he displays by playing a guitar. That's mine baby. Stick to a nose-flute or whatever was a Maori instrument.

      Besides he is bloody awful as a musician.

    • Nic the NZer 28.3
      12 May 2023 at 7:02 pm

      Keeping the cowboy hat as parliamentary atire is item 0 on the list.

    • Anker 28.4
      12 May 2023 at 7:15 pm

      100% Stuart.

      Hell I have been left wing all my life and what that meant to me is fairness and decency. I am a Martin Luther King type of thinker "not judging people by the colour of their skin, but by their character" and now from what I have read about CRT this is regarded as racist.

  29. Ad 29
    12 May 2023 at 7:17 pm

    So if Labour got near 40%, should they go with Greens or TMP?

    quick vox pop people.

    • RedLogix 29.1
      12 May 2023 at 7:29 pm

      I think the presumption in your question is that either the Greens or TMP could provide the numbers – then I would choose Green.

      Frankly neither prospect fills me with joy – just a case of least worst. Both parties having somehow managed the remarkable feat of making NZ1 look really good by comparison.

    • Stuart Munro 29.2
      12 May 2023 at 7:57 pm

      Labour should perhaps put together a set of counter proposals, so that the public can see that talking to TPM is not altogether conspiring to abandon our system of government.

      Luxon is a bad egg, and Act's whey-faced assassin of joy is worse. Labour is obliged to keep rubbish like that out of power in the public interest, even to the point of talking to racist revanchists. But not yielding to them.

      It should be remembered however, that the Maori Party typically secured no more than 2.5% of the vote, so that to put them on a par with the Greens, being in the 10% range, requires first of all that they get there. They are egotitical, not statesmanlike, and I expect that, in the fullness of time, they will self-sabotage spectacularly.

    • tsmithfield 29.3
      12 May 2023 at 8:03 pm

      As a right-leaning voter, definitely Labour and the Greens for me.

      • bwaghorn 29.3.1
        12 May 2023 at 10:26 pm

        Well ypu better vote for one of them so they don't need tmp

        • tsmithfield 29.3.1.1
          13 May 2023 at 8:00 am

          I think I prefer the option of a National/Act coalition that guarantees TPM isn't going to be part of a future coalition.

          But if I had to choose between a Labour/TPM coalition and a Labour/Greens coalition, I see the latter as the lesser of two evils.

  30. Cricklewood 30
    12 May 2023 at 7:58 pm

    A two year horizon on synthetic fertlizers is a recipe for a massive increase in food prices and a pretty hefty reduction in our exports…

  31. Corey 31
    12 May 2023 at 9:01 pm

    So, based off that list and Tamihere's comments about the cross bench, a vote for the Maori party is a vote for having two general elections in 2023.

    That list is a wish list of untenable policies so if they hold the balance of power, we're heading straight back to the polls.

    As someone who grew up in a state house to a mixed race family the idea that we give state houses out based off race and not need is disgraceful.

    Labour should rule out working with the Maori party too, labour can't agree to almost any of those policies, maybe some lefty's who think voting the Maori party is a vote to push a labour govt to the left will go back to the greens or labour but goodness…

    Seriously, all national and act have to do is just list those policies to pakeha and Asian NZ and both will freak out and vote nat/act.

    Although…. it would be pretty funny if NZ has to have a second election. Maybe we'll go like Israel and have like six in two years .

    I really would be interested in what the mood of the electorate would be if we had to have another election because of a minor party, I imagine it would one of undiluted rage that they have to listen to politicians for another six weeks.

    • SPC 31.1
      12 May 2023 at 11:01 pm

      The reason for the TPM saying they will be on the cross benches is because they know their policies would not be agreed to by L or N.

      Sitting on the cross benches means they provide confidence and supply for three years, it does not mean another election.

      To whom they would give confidence and supply is an unknown.

    • weka 31.2
      13 May 2023 at 8:37 am

      it would be political suicide for a small party to fail to reach a post-election agreement.

  32. Mac1 32
    13 May 2023 at 8:12 am

    Well, here's Chris Hipkins' response. Rational and calm. Plus a wee dig at Luxon's "chaotic" claim.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132027968/chris-hipkins-tells-mori-party-to-be-careful-with-policy-demands

    • newsense 32.1
      13 May 2023 at 5:35 pm

      And had the sense not to point out the chaos within the National Party this term or read out headlines from dissatisfied right wingers about his leadership…

  33. RP Mcmurphy 33
    17 May 2023 at 11:55 am

    the maori party suffer from ethnomania and machbarkeitswahn (fantasies of omnipotgnece) and what they want is control over everhyone just like all politicians and there pathology is well illustrated in Harold Lasswells book on th epsychopathology of politics if anhyone can care to read it rather than offering up kneejerk OPINIONS!