With enough trees …

Written By: mickysavage - Date published: 9:44 am, July 6th, 2019 - 65 comments
Categories: climate change, Environment, global warming, science, uncategorized - Tags:

There was this fascinating recent article in the Guardian which laid out in very plain terms what we know already. The best way to start addressing climate change and to start to absorb carbon dioxide while we work out how we are going to wean ourselves off petroleum and air travel is to plant trees, lots and lots and lots of trees.

From the article:

Planting billions of trees across the world is by far the biggest and cheapest way to tackle the climate crisis, according to scientists, who have made the first calculation of how many more trees could be planted without encroaching on crop land or urban areas.

As trees grow, they absorb and store the carbon dioxide emissions that are driving global heating. New research estimates that a worldwide planting programme could remove two-thirds of all the emissions that have been pumped into the atmosphere by human activities, a figure the scientists describe as “mind-blowing”.

The analysis found there are 1.7bn hectares of treeless land on which 1.2tn native tree saplings would naturally grow. That area is about 11% of all land and equivalent to the size of the US and China combined. Tropical areas could have 100% tree cover, while others would be more sparsely covered, meaning that on average about half the area would be under tree canopy.

The scientists specifically excluded all fields used to grow crops and urban areas from their analysis. But they did include grazing land, on which the researchers say a few trees can also benefit sheep and cattle.

“This new quantitative evaluation shows [forest] restoration isn’t just one of our climate change solutions, it is overwhelmingly the top one,” said Prof Tom Crowther at the Swiss university ETH Zürich, who led the research. “What blows my mind is the scale. I thought restoration would be in the top 10, but it is overwhelmingly more powerful than all of the other climate change solutions proposed.”

A trillion trees, it sounds like a lot.

We have had Phil Goff’s million trees project for Auckland Council and Shane Jones’ billion trees project for the Government.

Both are positive. Jones’s proposal is not so great because it is mostly planting Pine for harvesting in the not too distant future. To really make a dent in our carbon budget deficit we need to have long term sustainable forests grow, and Kauri are especially good at carbon sequestration.

But a billion trees is about 200 per kiwi. A trillion trees is about 125 per person on the planet.

Of course the proposal needs to address the supply side of the equation as well as the demand side. We need to urgently reduce the amount of CO2 we are pumping into the atmosphere as well as increasing the amount of CO2 we are sequestering. And sorry meat lovers but we need to cut back on red meat consumption.

And we need to stop cutting down existing trees, particularly the large ones that have sequestered lots of carbon. And there needs to be strong disincentives to dissuade Indonesia and Brazil from clearfelling their forests.

And this particular solution will take years to start having an effect.

But the message is clear. Time to start planting.

Reprinted from gregpresland.com

65 comments on “With enough trees … ”

Comments are now closed

greywarshark 1

6 July 2019 at 10:07 am

May the Forest be with You. Great slogan. WtB and Robert will go with that.

Thanks for post mickysavage.
- Cinny 1.1
  
  6 July 2019 at 10:18 am
  
  +++ 🌳
- mickysavage 1.2
  
  6 July 2019 at 8:21 pm
  
  Thanks I had a look through our pictures in the graphics library and this one was by far the most appropriate.
Cinny 2

6 July 2019 at 10:16 am

The great thing about tree's, many of them are self seeding. Plant one and more grow, thanks to the birds. Hmmm I wonder how many tree's birds poo out and plant in their lifetime…

Now there's an idea……. dig up the seedlings and put them out the front with a koha box. School holidays sorted, get the kids on to it and maybe there will be enough koha for a trip to the movies
- WeTheBleeple 2.1
  
  6 July 2019 at 10:33 am
  
  Great thinking. Many kids love planting trees/getting involved in community based projects. I still go visit the trees we planted in primary school.
  - greywarshark 2.1.1
    
    6 July 2019 at 10:47 am
    
    We need to make a big thing of Arbour Day – over for 2019 but can ramp it up. If all the school kids chose an unusual tree each to plant and got some seeds soon, by next 5 June they would have a great little plant and a huge variety, and they should know all about it, and there should be a plan filed away with each tree marked and identified.
    
    The Arbour day plantings since 2020 would become marvellous kaleidoscopes of mixed tree types. It has generally been pine up till now, so it just needs expanding. And trees would be perhaps the prime intention, but shrubby natives that would grow to 3-4 metres might be easier for some could be planted between clumps of trees to make interest and help as fire breaks.
    
    Perhaps the children could visit a tree nursery in their area and put in orders now for a range of trees to be raised for that particular class, and parents be asked to help with a stall to raise money for them, or donate whichever seemed best for them. Get the whole family enthused about little Mike's or Michaela's tree, and the young ones will be interested too and they can go and visit the tree when planted and if they can reach it, take a water carrier and just add some water and mulch perhaps to help them when young.
    
    Arbor Day Events 2019 | NZ Arb
    https://www.nzarb.org.nz/Events/arbor-day-2019.html
    NZ has celebrated Arbor Day since 1977 on 5 June, which is also World Environment Day. Below are a few of the events happening up and down the country …
    - Robert Guyton 2.1.1.1
      
      6 July 2019 at 11:34 am
      
      How about an Arbor Year?
      
      An Arbor Decade?
      
      An Arbor Century?
      
      That's what I'd like to see.
      - Pingau 2.1.1.1.1
        
        7 July 2019 at 11:54 am
        
        As my old boss used to say "every day is arbor day".
WeTheBleeple 3

6 July 2019 at 10:32 am

Here is a handy guide for the collection and propagation of native seeds.

https://www.doc.govt.nz/get-involved/run-a-project/restoration-advice/native-plant-restoration/ecosource-seeds/collection-and-propagation-guide-trees/

Get a few seed trays and some potting mix (bought or homemade). Add a bit of native soil to the mix. Sow many seeds and grow out trees to plant, share and swap. Get your neighbors involved. Grow variety between yourselves. Join garden groups especially tree crop groups and learn what you can grow as food.

Get rat traps/bait but be wary of brodifacoum…

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/113989565/picture-of-poisoned-blue-cockroach-watershed-moment-in-tuatara-deaths

Swale systems, which have been discussed and outlined here a few times, are ideal tree planting systems. Trees are planted on the downhill side of (our climate's) swales lending them protection from flood and drought at once. Swales will bring trees into production faster, or merely grow them faster thus sequestering more carbon per unit of time.

It pays to do some research on swales. Biggest mistake is not building a wide spillway to avoid excess water breaching the back walls. We are dealing with both flood and drought now; we must allow for both.

https://lynehamcommons.wordpress.com/a-short-introduction-to-swales/

If you are merely placing more trees in landscaped areas the addition of thick mulch will allow water conservation and soil conditioning for the trees.

Look for wind-resistance in trees exposed to westerlies. Place more valuable/productive trees within their shelter. Some wind resistant trees are also productive but productivity may be less where wind chill/drying occur.

Eco-source natives and productive trees to avoid working against nature. Locally adapted trees will grow with far less effort on your part lending time to go plant some more.
soddenleaf 4

6 July 2019 at 11:21 am

Grow bamboo, eat the shoots, use as building material, and throw the rest on the ocean blocking sunlight. bonus lawns won't need mowing when covered in bamboo.
- WeTheBleeple 4.1
  
  6 July 2019 at 11:35 am
  
  Bamboo is amazing building material. I have a chicken coop that's been crushed twice: once hit by a digger and once a storm fall tree straight on top. With a couple of replacement bits of bamboo, it's still standing.
  
  Also makes great shelter belts. Always look for clumping varieties avoid creeping bamboo like the plague. Removal can be incredibly hard or easy as pie.
  
  Hard – man or machine vs bamboo. Tear it all up with huge effort, watch it grow again.
  
  Easy – cut down, cover and block sunlight, watch it die.
  
  Good firewood too but always split in half or it will explode.
  
  If you grow as many trees as you burn = carbon neutral.
  
  If you grow more than you burn = carbon negative.
  
  Bamboo also makes great biochar. Heating, biofuels and chemicals can all be drawn off as char is made. Then char is 'innoculated' and sequestered. Carbon negative plus soil conditioning plus heat/power supply.
  
  I'm dead serious in saying if a company wants to make the world's cleanest (carbon negative) BBQ I already have a prototype and will lend my time willingly (for a small %age). The time is ripe for such products.
  - greywarshark 4.1.1
    
    6 July 2019 at 11:46 am
    
    That point from sodden leaf about bamboo on the oceans blocking sunlight is something I have wondered about. Could the eighth wonder of the world be a giant floating open- woven platform-raft of bamboo over The Great Barrier Reef to restore the coral and the fish and marine life there?
    - WeTheBleeple 4.1.1.1
      
      6 July 2019 at 11:50 am
      
      Cyanobacteria (photosynthetic) are vital parts of reef ecosystems.
- Bruce 4.2
  
  6 July 2019 at 2:23 pm
  
  And you can build great structures, This was started about this time last year,
  
  https://www.facebook.com/Nangnon-Basecamp-1899467643695270/?__tn__=K-R&eid=ARCRgcr-I1OWcf9ZrUdZl5k_6xKn8mOX12Hcov__P5YiWGd94pmWgGE5P1JY9dFWyET6aOXtIJvkIat6&fref=mentions&__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARA3iqA2qOxcolpQxGMu-RN4OdO68AMZspjrXQvJEO4JHuIhx2f3d2uLkL49S3zF1lWzhUBG3YIgAqb7eQRsddj4WahiOprm5KKoLR6lcvkl9WyS6QVe9orxpZg5wtQJWI1l6F5Mt0Nl0TFsw4HfIu1tz2_nagVzkaJTuqouvcT8HNqIOqD4CG7SUzOp3r94ehEV4ZogRnF9NX_qlBqP5kpiHPEDhsiuoj5KPQA5VnCP6CjQQ3hayXr4nkuPgbTEXU664-p8UdaVTchO9l0eH13zv4nC2H0jMLLODAwLbMcb3mKNqSzX7g2nOzCURVCJghWykFrNkwB8ePpMceiOeUg
Robert Guyton 5

6 July 2019 at 11:27 am

It's wonderful, mickeysavage, to see your focus turning to trees in this way.

An astonishing things about trees, is that they occupy space above and below ground, and the subterranean "half" of a tree is of far greater significance than the aerial "half", linking, as it does, to a host of other growing things down there, where it's dark. Does a tree have a "heart" or a "brain", a soul or a "seat of spirit"? If it does, it'll not be in the waving branches we see against the backdrop of the sky, it'll be down below, out of sight, in the roots.

Here's something for strong-willed tree huggers to read:

https://dark-mountain.net/where-the-trees-used-to-be/
Robert Guyton 6

6 July 2019 at 11:33 am

In strong winds, the rocking and swaying of trees causes the soil to heave and swell; you can see it if you look. What does that massaging of the ground do; what purpose or role might it serve; how important is the action to the health of the whenua. What happens to the ground when we've stopped that effect, covered the surface with concrete, asphalt and buildings? Does anyone think about there things? Babies that are not cuddled or held can fade away and die; does the living earth need animation in the same way?

Plant trees. Please.
johnm 7

6 July 2019 at 11:43 am

This assumes we still have time; we don't! The proverbial is hitting the fan now! Climate Change is now exponential. In 2009 we were at .85c above the 1750 baseline that took 259 years. In the last 10 years alone to now 2019 we are at 1.9c above baseline an extra 1.05c ! massive deforestation is increasing worldwide. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/global-warming/deforestation/

Michael Manns' hockey stick is happening we're on the upward curve right now! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya1OZ_WJzPA

Climate Change now is destroying millions of trees in North America:

Death Of A Forest – Pine Beetles kill millions of trees in US & Canada – Wild Visions, Inc
- Robert Guyton 7.1
  
  6 July 2019 at 11:46 am
  
  We can't not.
  - greywarshark 7.1.1
    
    6 July 2019 at 12:10 pm
    
    Read The Day of the Triffids. John Wynham's actor went through disasters trying to survive, and do good and didn't give up. He met and saved a sighted woman and they recognised the similar spirit in each other and fell in love, were separated and she left a cryptic message on a wall that only he would understand. He travelled in hope, saving where he could, helping where he could, adopted a young girl after they had buried her younger brother, her parents already dead, they travel together, to where he thinks his love has gone. He uses his wits to find her, with so many people dead there are few lights at night, and he sits in his purloined vehicle on a hilltop with the headlights on in hope, until she comes. They are about to be manpowered into a masculine, militarised, authoritarian dictatorship and escape using their wits from them and the terrible sting-whips of the triffids. They have made contact earlier with other escapees and contact them, and are taken by boat to an island, and their they kill off the remaining triffids and also carry out scientific experiments on ways of exterminating them with hope of being able to do so on the mainland and eventually returning. Of course they will still have the toxicity of the dictatorship, rigid, uncompromising in their ownership of all they survey, unfriendly, and inhuman.
    
    So if you are considering giving up Johnm, don't. Keep doing what the stars of John Wyndham's book did, do what you can, and keep your head and try to be kind. Try to work with people who care about others and put themselves out for community, but not to be used and cast aside – that is a false community, not one that looks to respect all and stands strong for good ways of living. If we are to die early, be taken by acts of Nature, appreciate the life you have now. Have a laugh, a quiet cry now and then, and lend a hand with people trying to be good, and creating wellbeing, and music and song. That is the noble way to go out, not following the cold authoritarian way epitomised by the Eye of Sauron watching and controlling, limiting, chastening, imprisoning, even killing and torturing people who are just being people and not wishing to harm others. (Those who do chronic harm and can't be habilitated will have to be isolated, and do set tasks to keep themselves, away from the broad community.)
    - greywarshark 7.1.1.1
      
      6 July 2019 at 12:13 pm
      
      This is interesting and seems about how to redeem yourself when you have stepped away from the parameters of being a good person in a society trying to be good.
      
      https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018701905/dr-paul-wood-prison-was-the-most-useful-thing-i-could-have-experienced
- WeTheBleeple 7.2
  
  6 July 2019 at 11:56 am
  
  Hence the need for biodiversity rather than BAU pine everywhere. The palette of plants at our disposal is significant. The answers to ecological disasters are not to throw ones hands in the air, but to restore ecosystems.
- Pat 7.3
  
  6 July 2019 at 11:56 am
  
  Agree we've wasted too much time but there is no harm in planting in hope ….whats the saying, better late than never?
- johnm 7.4
  
  6 July 2019 at 12:20 pm
  
  Death Of A Forest – Pine Beetles kill millions of trees in US & Canada – Wild Visions, Inc
  
  With global warming evident in many places around the world, the forest of North America are undergoing huge changes. The pine beetle and pine trees have co-evolved together and until the past 2-3 decades, the numbers of beetles have been kept in check by very cold winters that would kill the beetles, thus limiting their lifespan and ability to reproduce. However, with warmer temperatures during the winters, the beetles are surviving in astounding numbers and are killing the forests of the western US and Canada. To date millions of acres of forests and billions of trees are dead and there is no end in sight. Some estimates predict that by 2013, 80% of the North American forests could be gone. In addition, we are losing forests that otherwise provide a carbon sink for our production of greenhouse gases, and as the trees die, they emit more Carbon Dioxide back into the atmosphere. Nothing, except very cold winter weather, will stop the beetles. http://www.wildvisions.net
  Ashley Law
  Not just these forests dying – trees all over the world are dying.
  My trees are dying from the top of the crown something very bad is happening.
  Google dying trees and you will be shocked.
  - WeTheBleeple 7.4.1
    
    6 July 2019 at 1:06 pm
    
    Number of tree species > 60 000. North America has about 1000.
    
    Number of threatened tree species > 6 000. (Yes, that's not great but is what it is).
    
    It aint over till the fat lady sings.
    
    The mountain pine beetle is enjoying uninterrupted breeding due to warming. Predators e.g. woodpeckers and various insects will rise as the beetles do. This is the predator-prey cycle. Unless we are going apeshit with insecticides killing off predators and woodpecker food.
    
    Since its first outbreak in British Columbia in the early 1990s, the creatures have killed almost 50% of the total volume of commercial lodgepole pine.
    
    The primary host of these insects is the lodgepole pine (Pinus contorta), though the beetles can attack almost any pine species.
    
    Commercial pine plantations – now threatening boreal forests as climate changes. Who'd have guessed aye. Now let's see some biodiversity from real foresters.
    
    Insofar as failed attempts to take out the beetle – they require dead trees to complete their life cycle. To kill the trees they employ a fungus. Perhaps targeting the fungus, not with fungicide but mycoviruses, could help.
- bwaghorn 7.5
  
  6 July 2019 at 2:05 pm
  
  Sweet as then ! Drink tonight for tomorrow we will fry.
Robert Guyton 8

6 July 2019 at 11:47 am

Plant trees?

Plant forests!
Stuart Moriarty-Patten 9

6 July 2019 at 12:27 pm

keep chopping them down though

here:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/112898870/the-aotearoa-chainsaw-massacre?utm_source=The+Bulletin&utm_campaign=e865d0c99a-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_03_01_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_552336e15a-e865d0c99a-533756713

and abroad

'Football pitch' of Amazon forest lost every minute

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-48827490
Pat 10

6 July 2019 at 12:46 pm

Are mixed native/exotic forests the answer (initially)?…..there appears a simple logic.

Use the fast growing exotics to sequester and provide nursery conditions for the slower growing natives

"Exotic trees do not compete with native vegetation any more than any native forest species compete with each other in the process of ecological succession. Instead, these exotic trees provide a feasible succession pathway to climax native forest subject to some management input."

https://www.landscape.org.nz/home/2017/3/13/the-ecological-environmental-and-economic-benefits-of-exotic-conifers
- WeTheBleeple 10.1
  
  6 July 2019 at 1:19 pm
  
  Yes the author has done their homework. The problem with (a majority of) conservationists is their inability to understand how to work with nature. The longing to restore a time long gone on the mainland thus becomes a laborious and lengthy process of pushing shit uphill while using vast resources.
  
  We can make island sanctuaries that are easier to maintain. The dream of a post-human landscape is a dream, but can be realised in some satellite systems. These can be paid for with tourism but man is often barred from such places e.g. Little Barrier. But we also need some places relatively untouched. A bit of a dance…
  
  Gorse is another native nursery we desperately try to control rather than understand why it is there. It is a nursery and nitrogen fixer working on impoverished land to enable tree succession.
  
  Native pioneers can also be employed if/where they take.
  
  Thanks for the link it's a surprisingly wise new take on an old problem.
- Robert Guyton 10.2
  
  6 July 2019 at 1:34 pm
  
  "Are mixed native/exotic forests the answer"
  
  Yes
- francesca 10.3
  
  6 July 2019 at 2:44 pm
  
  Check out Minlthorpe Park in Golden Bay
  
  Now about 45 years old, created with a shovel a wheelbarrow and the smell of an oily rag
  
  https://nzecologist.com/ecology/new-zealand/milnthorpe-park-scenic-reserve-golden-bay/
  
  She's got a few things wrong, but basically true.
  
  Minthorpe's own website is a bit hopeless, no IT expertise here , just lots of hands on
  - Ad 10.3.1
    
    6 July 2019 at 3:31 pm
    
    That's a life well lived.
    
    What an epic story of devotion and selfless giving for all.
  - woodart 10.3.2
    
    6 July 2019 at 4:26 pm
    
    everybody should do themselves a favour and go to eastwoodhill arbouretum, gisbourne. NZ national arbouretum. fantastic place…
    - WeTheBleeple 10.3.2.1
      
      6 July 2019 at 4:39 pm
      
      Going to make a point of it if I'm touring Gisborne in future. Thanks for the heads up.
      
      These clear winters days I like nothing more than a botanical park to stretch my legs in. Good for the body and mind.
  - RedLogix 10.3.3
    
    6 July 2019 at 5:17 pm
    
    We camped at Milnthorpe for some weeks many years back. A wonderful spot and now I'm impressed to learn the story behind it. Thanks.
    - Francesca 10.3.3.1
      
      6 July 2019 at 7:02 pm
      
      Thanks Red
      
      It's thriving
      
      Really, driven by one man's vision.
      
      He started when he was 34, (in the time of Kirk)is now 77 and still very much involved.
      
      Majority of the time unpaid
      
      We are getting a small booklet out that gives the whole history
  - Pat 10.3.4
    
    6 July 2019 at 5:49 pm
    
    "With political reform in the 1980's the re-vegetation project was denied ongoing government support. With planting efforts still in early stages of an intensive tree survival strategy, Nicholls decided to continue his commitment to Milnthorpe as a full time volunteer. "
    
    "In 1999, after 25 years of dedicated scrub clearing and tree planting, Milnthorpe was officially granted Scenic Reserve status and renamed Milnthorpe Park. It is now administered by an incorporated society under agreement with the Department of Conservation. All work at Minthorpe Park is still completed with the supervision of Dick Nicholls."
    
    Those 80s reforms have a lot to answer for…. and theres your billion tree model….as a starting point
patricia bremner 11

6 July 2019 at 1:28 pm

Hope is a human need. To do something useful and hope for improvement is far better than tearing hair and rending clothes with wails of despair.

There are many many examples of damage, what is needed is will power and the knowledge of the debt burden.

My garden isn't large, but I am sure we can plant a more trees there with some advice, and grow seedlings to give to others to plant out. Give trees as gifts. Trees for life.

Perhaps we should look at hedges instead of fences where possible, and masses of low growing shrubs under trees, instead of lawns.

When people realise the need they will meet it in diverse and clever ways.

Each town and city should nominate areas of land where people are free to plant from a selection of suitable trees to plant their family quota to offset carbon.
- Robert Guyton 11.1
  
  6 July 2019 at 1:35 pm
  
  "Perhaps we should look at hedges "
  
  Yes
  - higherstandard 11.1.1
    
    6 July 2019 at 2:05 pm
    
    Yep, if a large proportion of urban fences were replaced with hedges it's be fabulous for the urban fauna as well.
  - WeTheBleeple 11.1.2
    
    6 July 2019 at 2:23 pm
    
    Fedges even!
    
    These can be interpreted as fence/hedge; fruiting hedge, or my take: food hedge.
    
    And here's a sweet idea for horticulture: Pollinator hedgerows
    
    Westerly exposure might require something a bit harder. Feijoa, olive, strawberry tree, coprosma, manuka, loquat, guava – all relatively hard. there are many other species. I look for potentially productive windproof species (manuka for honey, coprosma for browse, chook food (berries) and possible coffee substitute!
    
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/news/features/97758001/part-of-natures-coffee-culture
higherstandard 12

6 July 2019 at 2:04 pm

I'd easily be achieving the 200 per family member on the family farm just with natives, it's a very difficult target though for those living in the city without access to land, or even with access to land as demonstrated by Shane Jones' scheme's under-delivery.

I wonder if there needs to be significant onus put on developers private and of state/kiwibuild enterprises to ensure robust planting takes place ?

Greg you're on a local board is anything like this occurring at present in Auckland ?
- greywarshark 12.1
  
  6 July 2019 at 6:33 pm
  
  I didn't know about 200 trees per family. Ovre what period? Where is the background on that?
- patricia bremner 12.2
  
  6 July 2019 at 6:44 pm
  
  , Higherstandard, we are in Pimpama QLD doing a house sit to be near our sick son.
  
  What we notice here is the roads are divided by a shallow 2 metre trenches planted with tough looking 6m small gum trees in groups of 3 or 4, with sedges and grasses at the edges. We have had heavy showers and the water sits round the rocks and in the sand and plants,
  
  Many of the houses have rail fences and a mix of small trees and shrubs in front, mainly natives for bird food. Each house would have at least 6 to 10 trees with this pattern.
  
  Further areas are left in natives preserved, or planted out along and through gullies or parks, half acre here two acres there with riding and walking paths.
  
  A new children's playground has several large trees planted as part of its design with under planting. The overall effect is green established and welcoming. Land care and balance of planting is essential along with preservation of natural water areas.
  
  We have talked of trees and growing things being the lungs of life, how true that is.
Ad 13

6 July 2019 at 3:26 pm

Kinda like the Greens and New Zealand First have stronger climate change policies than Labour.

Thank God they found each other for government.
Sanctuary 14

6 July 2019 at 3:35 pm

Here is some very good news indeed for tree lovers everywhere. The mighty American Chestnut, four billion (fully 25% of the entire forest canopy in the Eastern united States) of which were wiped out within four decades by an introduced blight in the first half of the 20th century, is about to come roaring back as scientists have created a blight resistant tree

https://www.wrvo.org/post/suny-esf-nearing-completion-blight-resistant-american-chestnut-trees

Of course, this required a bit of genetic engineering wizardry so this triumph of human imagination and memory and restoration of one of the totemic mighty trees of America so Greenie luddites are moaning,but I think it is just the most exiting good news story ever.
- WeTheBleeple 14.1
  
  6 July 2019 at 4:50 pm
  
  I reckon at this point in the chestnuts demise there were no real alternatives. I have a couple of friends with mature uninfected trees in The States but they wouldn't let scientists within a mile of their place – worst pathogen carriers of all.
  
  While I don't want GE here, it's long bolted the gate in the US. Natural alternatives are always preferable as they:
  - Don't belong to a corporation
  - Are capable of reproduction without it being a potential issue
  - Cheaper
  - Genetically diverse thus adaptable to change
  - Worth a lot more in markets demanding GE free
  I have more I'm sure but I just ate too much. Time for some rest…
- Robert Guyton 14.2
  
  6 July 2019 at 4:56 pm
  
  "so Greenie luddites are moaning,"
  
  I couldn't see that in the article. Do you have other links to evidence moaning?
  - Sanctuary 14.2.1
    
    6 July 2019 at 8:38 pm
    
    These guys, for starters.
    
    https://globaljusticeecology.org/
    - Robert Guyton 14.2.1.1
      
      6 July 2019 at 9:15 pm
      
      They're opposing "trees engineered to grow more closely".
      
      No mention of the American Chestnut.
      
      You're extrapolating to satisfy your bias.
      - Sanctuary 14.2.1.1.1
        
        6 July 2019 at 10:57 pm
        
        Errr… Websites have these things called hyperlinks dude. Try clicking on a few. The two at the top of the website entitled "No GE Trees" and "GE Tree Petition" may help. I'll give you a hint – there is a clue in the title.
        
        try this
        
        https://globaljusticeecology.org/genetically-engineered-american-chestnut-tree-resources-info/
        
        And their petition against the Chestnuts which appears to be based on little more than, umm, well, nothing really.
        
        https://globaljusticeecology.org/new-petition-to-keep-ge-trees-out-of-the-forests/
        
        Also they have a press release – https://globaljusticeecology.org/press-release-major-new-white-paper-on-ge-american-chestnut-released-today/
        
        “…“The release of GE AC (AC = American Chestnut I assume) into forests would be a massive and irreversible experiment. The introduction of GE AC could not only fail, but also create new problems and exacerbate existing pressures on forest ecosystems…”
        
        COULD! OMG! It could open a wormhole and let the Klingons through as well. It could do anything, I guess, if you have a big enough scaredy cat imagination. It could also – *gasp* – work.
        
        Like I said, ideologically opposed to evidence Greenies = luddites.
        
        WeTheBleeple 14.2.1.1.1.1
        
        6 July 2019 at 11:09 pm
        
        You're starting to sound like an anti-green luddite now.
        
        Robert Guyton 14.2.1.1.1.2
        
        7 July 2019 at 9:33 am
        
        So, there's a group somewhere, opposed to the genetic engineering of trees.
        
        Terrifying!
        
        There's a group somewhere, opposed to something else; speying cats, farming ferrets, eating corn. Let's cite them, because…?
        
        Robert Guyton 14.2.1.1.1.3
        
        7 July 2019 at 9:38 am
        
        Hang on! I read their press-release: they said,
        
        "”Decisions about the introduction of GE AC will set a regulatory precedent and set the stage for the future of forest genetics. Biotechnology cannot save our forests. We need to focus on real solutions.”
        
        So their objection is that this will be the "thin edge of the wedge", opening the door to more, less noble, genetic engineering of trees. Their concern is entirely valid, is it not?
        
        Robert Guyton 14.2.1.1.1.4
        
        7 July 2019 at 9:41 am
        
        Their claim:
        
        "The unprecedented approval of these GE trees could open the floodgates to approval of other GE trees developed for industrial tree plantations. GE trees like poplar, pine and eucalyptus are being developed solely for their increased economic value as a source for commercial production of timber, pulp and biofuels. These GE tree plantations would take over huge areas of land – land where forests currently grow."
        
        How is what they've claimed not true, Sanctuary?
        
        I think you've come over all frothy, but haven't kept to the facts.
WeTheBleeple 15

6 July 2019 at 6:05 pm

Here

https://www.br.de/mediathek/video/gruenwald-freitagscomedy-guenter-gruenwald-ist-der-grobmotoriker-av:5cb1a7914823a3001379b477

Check the video. I barely understand a word but this is definitely a potential greenie luddite to my imagining.
- Robert Guyton 15.1
  
  6 July 2019 at 7:36 pm
  
  Nah. No beard.
  - WeTheBleeple 15.1.1
    
    6 July 2019 at 9:00 pm
    
    I just realised I did't link the reply, then saw you'd found the reply anyways.
    
    That word: grobmotoriker. It's hard to pin a definition without knowing the language but I think it's basically a klutz – two left feet, incompetent. 'Gross motor skills' it might also be aimed at bad drivers?
    
    Loved the energy of the guy (he is Guenter Gruenwald – the grobmotoriker)
    
    Great venting skills.
reason 16

6 July 2019 at 6:20 pm

Deforestation and other greed driven environmental destruction …….. is enabled by the tax haven and secrecy world of 'off-shore' ….. For all we know New Zealand could be involved in destroying the Amazon ….

Most fires in the Brazilian Amazon are set by humans to clear land for cattle or crops. Deforestation destroys biodiversity, displaces forest peoples, and is responsible for 75 percent of Brazil’s greenhouse gas emissions, making it one of the world’s largest carbon polluters. A recent report links tax havens and major foreign investment to Brazilian deforestation.

https://news.mongabay.com/2018/11/tax-havens-and-brazilian-amazon-deforestation-linked-study/

ANZ director John Key was an expert in the corruption and crime enabling world of 'offshore' shadow banking secrecy ….

He very quietly …. and with the silent help of our media …. plugged NZ into this rotten money shuffle go round.

Also NZ has allowed the timber mafia,,, the very crooks responsible for destroying vast tracks of forest and causing human rights abuses in Malaysia as well as Gabon, Equatorial Guinea, Vanuatu, Indonesia, and Russia. …. To launder the loot from this plunder …. and buy land and forests here in NZ ….. with predictable regulation flouting results : https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/392213/hikurangi-forest-farms-pleads-guilty-over-debris-damage-in-tolaga-bay-flooding

Sarawak’s people have been elbowed out of their lands, threatened with gangsters if they dare protest and left with a monstrous eco-disaster to contend with. Yet, in return they have received precisely nothing, since owing to the dreadful low profits declared there has been little to give back in taxes to the state.

Yet, despite this tragic ‘lose lose’ situation, these self same companies have doggedly continued over the past decades to rip out every tree they can lay their hands on in Sarawak, whilst resolutely exporting their signature style of havoc and destruction into every other forested region on the planet.

How many New Zealanders realised their remaining wild woods are being ripped out by low grade loggers using dirty and careless practices? Are they receiving major tax benefits in return? http://www.sarawakreport.org/2019/06/havoc-and-destruction-sarawaks-logging-industry-is-globally-everybodys-loss/

http://www.sarawakreport.org/2014/06/the-sarawak-timber-mafias-global-menace/

We need to rip out a bit of corruption …. before we have any hope of saving forests.

The corruption / legislation that Judith collins and the national party enacted and support …… needs to be fixed properly …

And we should seize the timber mafias proceeds of crime ….. that they laundered in NZ.
- reason 16.1
  
  6 July 2019 at 7:57 pm
  
  We’re just now beginning to learn how closely the financial industry enables dubiously legal—and flat-out illegal—environmental destruction.
  
  https://massivesci.com/articles/dark-money-deforestation-overfishing/
  
  In case anyone thinks Im being negative ….. I'm actually pointing out a very easy thing NZ could do …. repealing crooked legislation that was implemented largely in secret.
  
  The greens in particular should network with their overseas counterparts on this ….
  
  there’s a lot at stake: The collapse of vast marine and tropical forest ecosystems would have catastrophic consequences for humanity.
  
  The saving grace for biodiversity is that improved financial transparency is possible
  
  I would say improved financial transparency is easy …. if the Govt has the will….. and has the interests of it's citizens at heart
WeTheBleeple 17

6 July 2019 at 8:39 pm

Hydro power is dependent on forests.

Trees/plants are rain generating organisms their transpiration (+ land evaporation) are the source for roughly 2/3 of all rain on land (the other third comes from the ocean).

Where ocean generated rain doesn't reach land: rain is generated by plant transpiration and evaporation only. Models predict it takes 6 km at least of contiguous forest to generate enough moisture for rain events. Wind is trapped by forests – walk into a forest on a windy day, within a few minutes the forest is still, where did the wind go?

Updrafts are formed in the forest using wind to lift bacteria that live on plants leaves up into the atmosphere. These bacteria have external proteins that catalyse the nucleation of ice at higher temperatures than normal, encouraging rain.

The forests generate both the catalyst and the moisture for rain. The further inland you go the more crucial forests become to generate rain. The tap roots of certain trees access considerable depth and thus soil water while simultaneously providing deep penetration for water to refill groundwater and aquifer storages.

The oceans contribution to rain is around the same amount of water from land that flows back in the ocean. As aquifers are depleting around the globe (~57% of all major aquifers) including some here, the need to manage water properly is becoming crystal clear.

NZ is not safe from drought, nor deep drought and the fires that come with it. Nor completely screwing its water up and thus a majority of sustainable power generation. Heavier droughts and rain events are the outlook for our future. This will send a higher proportion of rain back to the ocean as it 'all arrives at once' while hitting post-drought dry and impervious land on our farms everywhere. This will take topsoil and nutrients (and logs and trash) to our waterways, estuaries and oceans.

The rain from the ocean we are surrounded by will not be enough to sustain our industry, society, power and aquifers without forests. And stable reforestation projects, including small scale (but nationwide spread) earthworks to help capture the 'oceans share' of water we might typically lose back to the ocean. These earthworks start in the top of a catchment and all the way down to capture and slow the flow significantly replenishing the land and diminishing potential flooding. The earthworks are small scale as: anyone can do them, it's cheap to do them, and if one busts it's minor, not a catastrophe. They're also tree planting systems e.g. swales (a link above: post 3). Aesthetic &/or aquaculture e.g. ponds, wetlands, rain-gardens. Storage for usage e.g. ponds, check dams…

These (earthworks and trees) in combination will make reforestation efforts on any scale considerably easier than planting alone. The groundwater recharge and nutrient retention allows trees to flourish where they may otherwise fail. Small but broad scale earthworks will keep rivers and dams running, and it will help refill our aquifers which are worth a bloody fortune. A fortune NZ should be getting to, oh, I don't know, plant trees and build houses and stuff. It all seems like more work, but there is certainly a case to be made for doing it well.

TREES!
Jackel 18

6 July 2019 at 11:25 pm

Knowing the heart of Man, I can't see humans planting that many trees. A tree planting robot army on the other hand might just do it. It would have to go fully corporate and be commercialized to get support from the tories though. But then that's the original problem isn't it?
- WeTheBleeple 18.1
  
  7 July 2019 at 8:18 am
  
  You mean 'the heart of capitalists'. Those dinosaurs who love oil, mining, war and resource extraction and who pass off social and environmental costs to governments while avoiding tax and decrying anyone not them…
  
  Those people who've consistently shit on everyone else.
  
  Yeah, nah… their days are numbered. The whole world is alert now they know they're endangered. Can't see it ending well for the black hearted bastards.
  
  Like the fool the other day prattling on about machines that gobble gases, produce oxygen, and run on sustainable energy – machines that the corporates own, and how would we feel paying corporates to save us with said machines…
  
  Trees, the moron didn't realise he was describing trees. That's how out of touch they have become. Searching for solutions that already exist so they can patent them. Blind to nature and the enormous potential of working with nature. Money money meh.
  
  Robots – yes they are.
  
  Here's some AI, nothing to worry about aye. Made in their own image.
Pat 19

7 July 2019 at 11:24 am

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018703008/dr-jim-salinger-billion-trees-programme-ultimatley-flawed

suspect these concerns would not apply to the mixed model, providing of course the end goal was permanent forest
Ramez 20

8 July 2019 at 1:09 pm

What a great idea!

I hope we all follow through with it.