- Date published:
1:59 pm, March 21st, 2023 - 73 comments
Categories: feminism, gender critical feminism - Tags: kellie jay keen, Let Women Speak, Women Speak, women's liberation aotearoa, women's rights
Cross posted from Women’s Liberation Aotearoa
20 March 2023
Women’s Liberation Aotearoa stands for all women’s right to speak about matters that affect them, including women we don’t agree with, and women we oppose politically.
We recognise the right of our members as individuals, and all other women to attend the events and to speak at them if they choose to do so. We recognise the right of people opposed to these events to demonstrate against them.
We strenuously oppose far right activists using the events to publicise their reprehensible views as we have seen happen in the UK, the USA and most recently in Melbourne. The far right is a danger to women, to people of colour, to Jewish people, to lesbian, gay and other gender non-conforming people, to disabled people and to democracy itself.
We do not hold women responsible for the appearance of these men at Let Women Speak events, but we call on Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull and the New Zealand organisations and individuals supporting her events to make clear public statements opposing far right and fascist groups and politics, and making it plain that there is no place for such groups at Let Women Speak events.
WLA is not supporting the events in any capacity as an organisation and we encourage our members to consider staying away unless such clear public statements are forthcoming.
Kellie-Jay Keen made this statement about the Melbourne neo Nazis, in an interview with NZ Herald last night.
They’re absolutely not associated with me whatsoever. I absolutely abhor anything to do with Nazis. It’s preposterous they even exist in 2023.
Well many women knew this all the time.
We also know nothing beats a good media beat-up though.
Especially if it includes the usual suspects (no debaters) anti women with no comprehension of the issues, and a facile view of what Posie Parker is here for and what happened in Aus.
And again from Weka
‘But self ID as a social change has definitely changed things for women. This is why KJK is so controversial, she says that TW aren’t women. It shouldn’t be radical to say that.’
Are you going to either of the NZ events?
I am not sure.
Though I do see from my twitter feed that women who had not thought they would go, are now rethinking this.
Very thoughtful press release from speak up for women.
‘We support Kellie-Jay Keen’s right to enter New Zealand to advocate for women’s rights …”
please provide a link for that quote.
The link for Weka's quote above is here. Sorry for not linking earlier and missing the time.
20 March 2023 at 9:35 pm
"….TW aren’t women. It shouldn’t be radical to say that."
In my opinion that is not the argument.
Trans Women are human beings, with all the inalienable rights of all human beings to live without fear or harassment or threat and intimidation, and scapegoating. It shouldn’t be radical to say that. In fact, it shouldn't be radical to demand it.
Whether Black, White, Straight, Gay, Trans, Moslem, Jew, we should all know where the demonisation of a minority always ends up. It shouldn't be radical to say that.
most people here already believe that TW are human beings with the same rights as other humans, Jenny. What rights do you think that trans women don't have? How do those rights intersect with women's rights?
"…most people here already believe that TW are human beings with the same rights as other humans,"
We are not talking about 'most people' we are talking about extremist hatemongers who travel the world spreading intolerance and fear of the other. As I wrote we should all know where that ends up.
Some poor innocent soul dead in a gutter. Should I really have had to spell it out?
Yes. Spell it out please because so far, it's gibberish with a melodramatic ending.
Great. Now nazis can discredit any movement they don't like by simply turning up and saying "we're with them".
I thought the left was in the business of taking power away from nazis, not handing it over to them.
Not a criticism of WLA btw.
what's been very noticeable over the past two days is the number of genderists condemning the women at the Melbourne Let Women Speak for not fighting the Nazis in the moment. Almost none of them offered constructive suggestions or strategy for how to do that in that situation. Lots of armchair antifa.
Makes me think that most people were more interested in condemning gender critical women than actual fucking Nazis. Mindblowing.
Women might have good reasons to avoid getting into a physical confrontation with a bunch of nazis in balaclavas?
100% that guy
WLA appear to have lost control of their social media. After "calling on" Kellie-Jay Keen to denounce the Nazis, they have ignored the reports of her doing so and moved on to other ill-thought out criticisms.
I've followed them for a while but they are not composing themselves well at the moment.
Can’t see how picking a fight with them improves the situation.
Here is their acknowledgment of KJK’s words to NZH about Nazis.
Good media review of Melbourne:
Rukshan Fernando is a far right misinformation superspreader according to this article:
He is an associate of Avi Yemeni who describes himself as “the world’s proudest Jewish Nazi”.
I am not sure you want to be using Rukshan Fernando in your defence of Posy Parker because it re-enforces the connection between her anti-transgender movement and neo nazis.
Been there recently, still there I see:
For those with more time, full livestream – much longer (1 hr 10 min) – here:
If at this point you refuse to make the obvious, documented connections between Rukshan Fernando, nazi-sympathiser Avi Yemeni, and anti-vaxxer Chantelle Baker, I will never be able to convince you otherwise.
I am only reading the Twitter text you provided but why on earth should a “women’s rights protest” headlined by a famous anti-trans activist not be met with counter protest?
[please provide evidence now for these claims of fact:
You may well be right, but all you’ve done is link to an information light NZH piece. I’m sick of this slur activism. You know how things work here – weka]
You can post your own carefully chosen, purity tested finely curated livestream as well.
The more the merrier!
I do know how things work around here…
You tube video of them together:
Please now remove me from moderation, thanks.
thank-you. Next time, provide some actual evidence at the time you make your first comment with claims of fact. I'm going to start handing out short bans for this stuff because I am sick of wasting my time asking for it.
Some commenters are time poor because of dependent families, work etc. Not everyone is able to provide all information up front to satisfy a poorly described and shifting standard.
would you like me to describe the standard clearly?
There is no obligation here to comment. There is no obligation to make claims of fact, so if one is time poor there are other ways to comment.
I actually agree with the point you were making, I think that citing far right material can damage progressive politics. But I also know that guilt by association is a tactic used routinely to shut debate down. I think that this tactic also harms the left.
If a restriction exists here based on ability to spend time on commenting then that does tip the favour to people who don't have other demands on their time.
So people who are older, whiter, wealthier and have no dependents are able to comment far more freely.
Not a great framework for a progressive forum.
The time you've spent in the last few hours commenting on TS is more than enough to have presented better evidence than a low quality NZH article and still had time to comment on other topics. The advice I have given people in the past is comment less and make each comment higher value.
I've explained my reasons. TS has a robust debate ethic and I will protect that, especially on a topic like this that is often fraught with poor evidence or outright slur politics.
Far out MB. So instead of having and expecting well rounded, referenced views the time poor, ie all of us, should be able to put up just everything that hits our minds/keyboards?
Surely if it is worth saying it is worth saying well even if it means we are a bit late for dinner……..
or just hold off until after dinner when one has more time.
It’s not FB, the standards matters.
MB why are you even putting these people in a thread about pro womens right campaigner KJM/Posie Parker. These are unjustified smears.
Are you unable to understand that women are concerned? PP is one who speaks for concerned women. We might not agree with all she says/the way she says it but she does speak for concerned women.
You know, or should if you had been following the events, as well as we do that she is not a Nazi, does not reflect Nazi views?
To me it sounds as if you have jumped on the MSM bandwagon of shock horror without having an inkling or perhaps an interest in what her views are all about. There are quite a few people doing this.
For several years TS has had threads about the No Debate changes to the births death regime where anyone who chooses will be able to get a female birth certificate. Already there have been instances of transwomen in prisons, in rape crisis centres etc where pregnancies have arisen from rape
Over the years TS posters have urged left wing men to get themselves up to speed with the issues, to participate in the threads, to be exposed to the real issues so you would not fall for what MSM is saying. It was almost as if this was thought to be women's tuff and you stayed away in droves.
It shows in the lack of deep background, you are expounding.
There is better background in the 'Speak up for Women – because sex matters' Twitter pages
Speak up for Women is 'A non-partisan organisation that exists to protect and advance the rights and interests of women and girls in New Zealand.'
[overlong quote deleted. Quote reformated to make clear it’s quote]
Also this is a good point from Weka
21 March 2023 at 3:29 pm
[unlinked quote deleted]
Please please be careful. We’d love more comment on the actual issues.
Shanreagh, thank you for your detailed comment but I did not put these people in this thread, Molly did that. If Molly had not referenced anti-vax, anti-mandate, nazi-adjacent Rukshan Fernando in defence of Posy Parker, I nor anyone else would have heard of him.
One question I have is who in NZ is bringing Posy Parker here? It must be a managed invitation.
She did not say anything about Chantelle Baker and the reputation of this guy of leaping onto any sort of rising and commenting on it is known. I had heard about it before and I think I got it from TS.
I am sure you can find out who is organising.
SUFW is not organising but supports her right to speak up for women's rights.
[repeated overlong quote deleted]
"I am sure you can find out who is organising."
I think the organisers are avoiding harassment and remaining fairly quiet until the events are over. Given what has happened in the past, I think this approach is a prudent one.
I don't know why this is relevant in terms of political analysis.
please look at your two comments to see deletions and corrections.
"If Molly had not referenced anti-vax, anti-mandate, nazi-adjacent Rukshan Fernando in defence of Posy Parker, I nor anyone else would have heard of him."
I'll manage a second invitation, .
"You can post your own carefully chosen, purity tested finely curated livestream as well.
The more the merrier!"
Will post Melbourne livestream if/when I find it.
Check out 48:08
Woman knocked out @52:03
I understand what you are trying to argue here, but I just googled Rukshan Fernando herald sun superspreader, and got nothing.
The NZH piece says three things about Fernando. One, that Chantelle Baker claimed he would come to NZ for the protest she was involved in. Two, some bio info and that he as involved in the Australian anti-lockdown/vax protest. Three, that two media outlets listed him among the top 100 misinformation superspreaders.
I'm sure the first two are reasonably accurate. I can't find the evidence for the latter. Perhaps you can.
Social media bias?
Are you seriously appropriating RNZ branding to pass this headline as argument? There seems to be a pattern recently where GCFs change headlines or norms without consent.
Generally today, anti-trans commenters have erased transgenders from the rainbow community. Anti-trans commenters have highjacked the sexual violence campaign message "no means no" for their own ends. And now anti-trans commenters have promoted misinformation by posting fake memes which use publicly funded sources.
Not sure The Standard is protected here.
No.. But I did forget that a sense of humor is not universal. And that some people here are unable to accept the obvious.
Can one of the moderators please delete, or preferably put a caveat on it to say it is a spoof and that the real article is posted here?
I did find more laughable content in this one, to be honest.
“CGFs change headlines or norms without consent.” – or acronyms?
there's no risk to the site, it's clearly satire.
To be fair, it is getting harder to tell these days.
If you are honestly attempting to claim that I "highjacked the sexual violence campaign message "no means no" for my own ends" then please quote exactly what I said, in context, so that people can decide for themselves. Here: I will do it for you. Here is the entire, in context quote from the previous article where I apparently "highjacked the sexual violence campaign message":
You will see that:
1) I explicitly state that we do need a sustainable model of trans rights
2) I make it absolutely clear that my position is coming from a place of concern for LGB youth and the rights of women, not hatred or bigotry.
3) I make it clear that for me, this debate is about consent and women's rights to make decisions even if I personally do not agree with those decisions. Because if women can only make decisions if men agree with them, then they don't have that right at all.
I won't be slandered in this way and I think you are skirting close to a ban.
What about Women MB. You don't mention us at all
Don't you want anyone to Speak up for Women?
Feel free to focus on the issues about women please. We all can read all the MSM misinformation rubbish just as well as you can.
Wellington March 21st 2023
The Let Women Speak events led by Kellie-Jay Keen are not Speak Up For Women managed events, but we know that many of our supporters will attend them. We encourage everyone who is concerned with the rights of women and girls to attend these public events.
The protesters who gate-crashed the event in Melbourne have unfortunately been allowed to completely hijack the purpose of the event and sideline the women who spoke. These women speakers are mothers and grandmothers, aunties, daughters and sisters. They are non-violent and only wish to gather and voice their concerns, to speak about how their rights are being impacted with the introduction of gender identity in legislation, and to share their own experiences.
We all have and deserve human rights and transgender people are no exception. However, accessing sex segregated or same-sex spaces and services, designated for people of the opposite sex, is not a human right.
As women’s rights campaigners we are extremely concerned about this conflict of rights.
We are concerned that the Mayor of Wellington, Tory Whanau, is encouraging protesters to silence women, many of whom are part of the rainbow community that she claims to be protecting, when she should be supporting women’s freedom of speech.
We are concerned that some MPs of the Green Party of New Zealand are discouraging open debate around a topic that concerns all New Zealanders. In a healthy democracy all views should be heard, even the ones we don’t agree with.
We support Kellie-Jay Keen’s right to enter New Zealand to advocate for women’s rights and denounce the attempts by some individuals and groups to have her visa revoked.’
It's satire you numpty and if you click on the link you will see the post. Here's the whole post on the author's substack,
It's common SM memery.
MB still awaiting your views on women and standing up for their rights?
How should we do this?
I just noticed this, which also refers to me and is also utterly false. What I said was that the LBG and the T are different categories with different needs, not that the T does not exist. Again, here's what I said, in context.
You will notice:
1) that I explicitly reject any accusation that I am "erasing" trans people
2) that I explicitly acknowledge the existence and rights of trans people
3) that I have no problem using the LGBTQIA+ acronym in the appropriate context
4) that I explicitly acknowledge that transition (as an adult) is sometimes the right thing to do.
Stop smearing me. Stop.
when you quote (even yourself) can you please provide a link. This is so people can easily see the wider context.
Muttonbird is now banned. Thanks for making the time to lay out exactly what was said so MB’s smears don’t stand.
Relevant comments are:
cheers, much appreciated.
Let me comment on my own personal take on this particular issue. Gender is fluid. There are all sorts of variations and the progressive left needs to appreciate this.
And if I was a member of a progressive clique that had actual nazis show up in support I would question my take.
Gender identity is fluid. Sex is binary and immutable.
Conflation of the fluidity of gender identity with DSDs is harmful.
"And if I was a member of a progressive clique that had actual nazis show up in support I would question my take."
This type of smear is poor and becoming recognisable as an indication of people who just are not prepared for discussion.
So why have you used the word "transsexual" here? If, according to you, sex is binary and immutable, this word should not exist.
Neither should the word "transgender" because you and fellow GCFs also believe the word gender should not exist.
[banned 1 month for lying about what other commenters believe, using slur politics, and not providing evidence (again). And for wasting moderator time, again, after being warned. Even outside of this topic you have a history of having a go at other commenters. Next time I see you pull this kind of smearing I will ban you until well after the election. – weka]
"So why have you used the word "transsexual" here? If, according to you, sex is binary and immutable, this word should not exist."
Your thinking is not joined up.
"Neither should the word "transgender" because you and fellow GCFs also believe the word gender should not exist."
But you appear to be great at creative writing. Which should work well for you given that you are time poor and thus unable to provide links to relevant evidence.
The Nazis weren't there to support Kellie Jean. They turned up for their own agenda.
And 100% for Molly's comment below about associating these Nazis, who Kellie Jean has said she abhors, is an attempt at smearing her and GC women.
Gender whatever that means may well be fluid. But I don't believe there is such a thing as a gender identity, but people are entitled to believe that. I don't think we should legislate for that.
There are only two sexes and despite what gender ideology posits, sex is not a social construct. It is a biological reality
I am surprised MS.
Have you been following the many, many threads on here going back several years on this issue. It sounds as if you have come across it just recently & been swayed by MSM. And that is a surprise
Have you read the Speak Up for Women press release?
What do you think of the points they raise?
Sex ie male/female is immutable.
I am sure it was accidental but let's not give her permission to come into the country and say things she can say from her Youtube channel.
This type of smear is poor and becoming recognisable as an indication of people who just are not prepared for discussion– and now pathetic as well.
Check out this observation from a bystander on the day @48:08 and get back to me.
Yes it was someone who took a freeze frame and to say she was using a white supremicist symbol is ridiculous. If you watch the video you will see Kellie is the type of person who gestitculates a lot with her hands. Why did you post this MS if you are sure it was accidential? I thought you were better than that
Frankly, the PM, Chris Hipkins is showing a pattern of mis representing women and scapegoating them. First Charlotte Bellis, then the two women who he slurred in the Northland lockdown. Now Kellie Jean. Three times………
Why should she not come to this country? She is not a criminal. What is so objectional to you Mickey about letting women speak? Do you not want women to be able to attend an event and talk about these issues?
If you are at all able to listen to the women speaking here are the Melbourne women:
have you done one of those threads for the Sydney speeches?
No. I'll try and do Canberra and Wellington. Might have to see if someone else can do Auckland if I'm going to attend.
It was an attempt to create an opportunity for Trans -Tasman Feminists , to coordinate their feminist analysis with what the Australian women were saying.
I was talking to one of the established feminists online, who felt they couldn't fully support the #LetWomenSpeak events because of the media bias around KJK. So I tried to create a framework where each of the women were acknowledged and their points could be discussed by everyone who wanted to support them.
Why MS should we have to watch on Youtube or Facebook?
Many women would love to see and hear from her and voice their own concerns.
Surely you remember the 'No debate' on self ID where women's voices were not welcomed? This has led to continuing unease and powerlessness and so there is interest in hearing from smart, lively, and alert women's right campaigners.
I have just tried to watch the Hobart event.
The Policing was diabolical. The protestors were allowed by the police to be far too close to the event.
KJM was forced to move up Parliament steps at Hobart in breach of where her permit said she was to be because the Police did nothing to move the protestors back. They started out far to close and so it continued.
She moved back, retreated, and the police allowed the protestors to move up to her.
I really want to know what the permit says and what obligations the police have for keeping a large distance between protestors and speakers. And what the norm is in each city.
And yeah, the police failed. I suspect they didn't have the numbers, but maybe not the will either. Thing is, you can't rely on the police because eventually protestors will figure out how to get around them.
From a protest pov, what the protestors did was normal and effective. Think about a cause that matters a great deal to you. What would you do in protest for that cause? What's legitimate protest? Disruption is legitimate in Australia and NZ.
To me it looks like KJK and the organisers were caught off guard and had no back up plan. The move back up onto the steps of parliament was really good in the moment. They were outnumbered and surrounded. KJK spend 20 mins before the start talking about that instead of strategising what to do. It's all grist for the mill, but I hope she learns some things from this. One thing that is obvious is that the protestors are forcing her into a reactionary position and not letting the event be a rally.
I really feel for the women speaking because that whole thing was just horrible. They were very brave.
KJK was terrible. All that stuff aimed at the Green Party MP and her child was bullshit. Don't attack people's families, just don't. While I understand she was very angry, to me it looked like her anti-trans stuff came out under the stress and she fails to understand how that plays in NZ and Oz, as opposed to the US and the UK.
Good points Weka.
I have some requests in to ask if Police are aware of the (poor) type of Policing in Hobart and what the permits say for the Civic Square here in Wellington.
My concern about Civic Square in Wellington is that people in the square itself can easily be surrounded/squashed just by protestors blocking off the exits. The more that Let Women Speak supporters see inadequate policing the more they will stay away. I think this point was commented on by KJM.
The point was that no matter what the permit said for Hobart, the area behind KJM was not adequately protected and I several times I saw elderly supporters moving protesters out of the way as they came around to encircle. The media also did not cover themselves with glory either with walking around putting big camera 'noses' too near the speakers to try and get action shots from the protestors.
I thought it was rather ironic when one of the speakers made the point that we could all be working together on Climate Change and was booed from the protestors. What missed opportunities for the future of our planet and generations.
I am not sure about the politician's child/ren.
If she has brought this out into the public gaze herself then she herself has abrogated privacy. Sort of like the Sussexes saying 'you have breached our privacy' then making the same sort of thing public themselves.
If the information was not brought out publicly prior then it was a really bad thing to say.
Re protests, I may be biased and looking back with rosy spectacles but I don’t recall being allowed within touching distance of a speaker or other supporters and some areas were roped off.
do you think that it would be appropriate for people to say damning personal things about Ardern and Neve because Neve had previously been mentioned by Ardern?
I for one am sick and tired of all this, but since the TRA's keep pushing outright lies and calling people Nazis for having the temerity to make statements supporting women or the reality of biology, I will continue to be pissed off and continue to object.
TRAs are "idea supremacists" and corrosive to a liberal, tolerant society.
This is the second or third long, long, long commentary on this issue on the Standard. Are there some other things to talk about?
The lost opportunities to talk/act on climate change as mentioned by the woman speaker at Hobart who was boo-ed by the protestors?
Put up some posts Darien 👍
The fact that we all know there are a mass of way more pressing issues to be talked about and to organise around, is arguably the most important facet of it.
The questions that have fascinated me for the past decade or so are :
Why has gender identity ideology and praxis, as the latest facet of identity politics, become so divisive and diversionary?
Why has so much political capital from left and right been invested in it?
On what other issue do the left and the mainstream corporate world and its compliant state machines walk hand in hand?
What other social justice issue – one that involves a numerically tiny and marginalised group of people – has ever been catapulted into such prominence, so quickly?
How is it in a world dominated by the right and in the context of a corporate controlled media, that all this is being blamed on the left?
How do we cut through the veils of appearance and get to the essence of the thing?
I see identity politics as essentially the creature of global corporate capitalism which strives to achieve two primary and linked goals in the pursuit of on-going hyper-profits for the few: the commodification of everything, and the promotion of hyper-individualism – breaking society down to the level of the individual and allowing only non-threatening collectives to re-form.
NLism exsanguinated the old red left and replaced it with a politically anaemic doppelgänger of its creation.
The broad left needs a blood transfusion not submitting to yet more bleeding.
Forgive the hyperbole … the topic's so imbued with it, it's hard to resist the allure.