Worth a thousand words

Written By: - Date published: 5:35 am, March 6th, 2009 - 68 comments
Categories: economy, humour - Tags:

stimulus_package

Helps if it’s pointing the right way, too. Great work Adders.

68 comments on “Worth a thousand words ”

  1. gaylord 1

    IrishBIll: you were banned some time ago. Go have sock puppet conversations with yourself elsewhere.

  2. infused 2

    Soon you will see the ill effects of obamas way. Size does matter.

  3. Kevin Welsh 3

    Good cartoon.

    While I agree stimulus packages are needed, what is being done about the root causes of what has gone wrong?

    Are the same bunch of corporate crooks still going to be running the show five years down the track?

    Are they just “waiting for the dust to settle” before its back to business as usual?

  4. vinsin 4

    “Are the same bunch of corporate crooks still going to be running the show five years down the track?”

    Yep. Nothing is really going to change, no “democratic” government in the world has the stones to take complete control of the economy.

  5. vinsin 5

    Hmm someone named Gaylord talking about a soft cock.
    I’m sure there’s a joke there somewhere but…nope, too easy, i’m sure there are better things to do with my time.

  6. Monty 6

    I often wonder if the left are just so deliberately dim when it comes to economic matter – or if the left really are totally economically illiterate?

    The problem with any stimulas package is that it is done off the back of borrowing money. Money that does need to be paid back – with interest – a couple of months before the election Clark was harping on about the evils of borrowing more money. Thanks to the fical fool cullen that is exactly what has had to happen, but Bill English is sensibly doing the minimum in order to smooth the roughest edges of the recession – but NZ is but a cork bobbing on the ocean of the worldwide recession.

    The National Government is using this time to position NZ in the best possible position to benefit when recovery happens. Borrowing money for short term gain is not a good idea – and will do nothing but delay the turnaround as the borrowed money must be paid back.

    But then again if Labour was in Government (thank god they are not) the writers of the Standard would no doubt be applauding the fiscal fool Cullen no matter what he did.

    • IrishBill 6.1

      Monty, the government borrows to stimulate the economy in such a way that we are better prepared to make the most of the next upswing. The analogy isn’t exact but think of it as being like a business raising capital to upgrade plant and equipment. Sure the money needs to be paid back but the upgrade means that not only will the payments be easier to make but there will be profit on top.

      Of course we could do what we did in the 90’s and exercise fiscal restraint but what happened then is that restraint further contracted the economy and deepened and lengthened the recession.

      That meant we lost skilled workers to stronger economies and that infrastructure and productive capital were run down. That’s a good part of why we have lower wages than Aussie, why we had a massive skills shortage (and still do in some industries) and why we have low productivity.

      You’re arguing for a repeat of that fiasco. It makes me wonder if you are being deliberately dim.

  7. Snail 7

    Great graphic!

    monty, I won’t berate you with “fical fool cullen” – gee I make enougfh typos myself – but you do deserve to know how the world today is not command-control anymore for, as they say in silicon valley, it is all about interconnectedness.

    Bill English and highly likely the government’s whole leadership – (PM on through all ministrys) is follow a leader C-C – and I would hope they transition quickly to being part of the total solution and not out on their own-ee-oh!!!

    You said Borrowing money for short term gain is not a good idea and how right that is, though only virtual collapse of the global banking sector (among which in enzed the government’s lead party would resource major support) has drawn this rather obvious conclusion. Personally I would call that the irresponsibility of follower-dom today.

    lprent, not criticising y’follow, but has the type here been set lower ( and changed to sans ) or do I need bigger magnification in my reading glasses..?.

  8. vinsin 8

    The problem with National doing the bare minimum in terms of stimulating the economy is that it seems their plan is predicated on the idea that this particular economic downturn is only going to last another couple of months and at the most a year.
    Talk to anyone who went overseas over summer, like say someone who went to America, and they’ll tell you the recession has hit the country with real power. They’ll also tell you that while masses of people were being fired, laid off and made redundant over there, NZ was basically on holiday and now the reality of the situation is becoming all too clear: the job market has become incredibly competitive with jobs scarce and full-time work a luxury, many companies have put a freeze on pay raises if they’re not making people redundant.
    Taking the “sharpest edges” off the recession is not working and won’t work because it’s taking the edges off for people who already have money and high paying jobs, the tax cuts are going to have little or no effect as the cuts are – once again – targeted at the wrong income bracket, it’s kind of like giving a band aid to someone with a bruise while someone with a deep wound bleeds all over the floor.
    The Labour government steered the country well by paying down debt so we have the ability to borrow when we need to, around a month ago English almost applauded them for this and said, “This is the rainy day the government planned for,” and yet we have little or no real plans for spending – a cycleway here, a bridge here, a new (un-needed i might add) motorway there – what we have is talks of cuts to public spending like ACC privatization, dropping out of the cullen fund, while reducing workers’ rights and sending people to WINZ. As others have said we need to super-charge the economy with money so we can ride out the recession and be in a better position when the market rebounds, if a large part of our society is unemployed and probably sick because of no ACC or limited healthcare what will we do? Borrow money.
    Yes we have to pay back our loans with interest; however, isn’t better to borrow when you need the money to maintain jobs rather than wait until the storm is over and then figure out what needs to be done. National’s plans are going to do nothing but prolong the recession and then when the market gains confidence again it will waste time figuring out what to do and spoil a year or two of economic growth.

    • Ianmac 8.1

      Vinsin. Great summary! I wish I could do that but my brain hurts at the vast conflicts of economic opinions.

  9. TightyRighty 9

    whats the number of that apollo that blew up? i notice the cartoonist left that off the “stimulus” rocket. and what happens when you get blasted to space? what exactly has nasa achieved in space for all the trillions they have spent? have they found life on mars, well kind of almost. have they discovered other intelligent life forms out there? no. have they managed to make a return on all that money they pumped in? well, not even slightly. this cartoon is a terrible analogy. at least if the NZ rocket explodes we can pick up the pieces and try again. if the “stimulus” rocket explodes, well i dare say too much would have been invested to do anything but sell anything salvageable to the chinese. kind of like the wellington power system last year.

    • vinsin 9.1

      My god, i think the rocket went completely over your head Tighty. Fail!

    • Kevin Welsh 9.2

      I want some of what you are on. Thanks.

    • Felix 9.3

      Hahahahahaha!

      For a brief moment I thought Tighty had made an overnight transformation from a complete fuckwad into a brilliant satirist. But no, it’s all kinds of fail.

      Oh, and nice comment vinsin, spot on.

      • TightyRighty 9.3.1

        all kinds of fail? you know, what if im wrong, i’ll eat my words. thats an election promise i’ll keep, my pledge card if you will

        the obamamessiah has fucked it up. the economic arguments put forward by this website and other left commentators are one-sided and therefore flawed. to increase capacity you can borrow from the bank, but when revenue drops, you cut costs and look at ways to increase future revenue out of current income. only a very fucking stupid stupid bank lends to people/organisations that won’t be able to pay it back. so the “borrow to spend” argument is doubly fucked because, and apparently everyone agrees on this, it’s one of the major causes of why we are in the shit anyway. i wouldn’t expect anyone who supports this to get that though.

        of course governments just do what they want, but the long term effects will be the same.

        • Matthew Pilott 9.3.1.1

          only a very … stupid stupid bank lends to people/organisations that won’t be able to pay it back

          So if the Government is the only organisation able to ‘pay it back’ (heh, remonds me of something else) does it not make sense for the government to act and keep things moving? Unless you’re Iceland, the Governmet may be the only party able to do anything – is that not a good thing, then, if it acts?

          • TightyRighty 9.3.1.1.1

            if the borrowing bankrupts the economy, the any bank/organisation/that has lent will be very fucking stupid. well actually it won’t matter as everyone will be screwed six ways from sunday anyway.

            Felix, jealous you crack ho? need a hit? go hit manchester street and hang out with your pipe fiendish sister, she might take pity and shout you a blast.

          • Felix 9.3.1.1.2

            Good idea, I’ll do that as soon as I’ve finished with your Mum.

            [lprent: Felix – there is no call for that. Tone it down]

        • Felix 9.3.1.2

          Tighty,
          You can’t make “election promises” you fucking moron. You’re not contesting an election, you’re an idiot on a blog and you write like you’ve been up all night on the pipe. You should expect piss to be taken.

          • vinsin 9.3.1.2.1

            Perhaps a liver too, mines playing up.

          • TightyRighty 9.3.1.2.2

            ho ho ho, original, get that off the latest mtv bullshit you obviously subscribe too?

            do you know how i know your lying though? last time i was balls deep in your mums mudbutton she told me your still a virgin.

            [lprent: Have you been reading the ‘sod? For a second I thought… Read the policy and tone it down or go to a blog where that kind of comment is tolerated.]

          • Felix 9.3.1.2.3

            The words are to, you’re and Mum’s. Moron.

    • Akldnut 9.4

      yep Obamas putting a Big Rocket = Big Bang into the US economy
      Jonkeys putting a sky rocket into our economy with the explosive power of a TOM THUMB (Now I’m showing my age)

    • Adders 9.5

      Every one of NASA’s Saturn V rockets flew successfully, even in testing.

      P.S. CAPTCHA: organization women.

      (Today being http://thehandmirror.blogspot.com/ pay equity faxathon day)

  10. Tim 10

    that’s a mighty expensive rocket the USA have there, and they don’t have the money to pay for it so they’re going to consign themselves to decades more of debt. Short term gain, long term pain.
    I’m so glad we’re not following that lead and only have one decade of deficits to deal with. Anyone who is able to manage their own money knows it should be short term pain, long term gain.

  11. vto 11

    That is a partial cartoon and misses a whole lot. I don’t rate it

    • Matthew Pilott 11.1

      Aww, did you want to see all of the big shiny rocket?

      (sorry vto, couldn’t resist)

      • vto 11.1.1

        ha ha, silly.

        What would make a better cartoon is something concerning Winston Peters NZF most recent election funding rort (no wonder he is loathed).

        And also something about Labour’s admission in its return that it cannot be sure of the definition of what is and isn’t an electoral expense, etc. That has to be the biggest joke of the lot. And it is like a smack to the chops imo for those who contend Clark is one the greatest NZers alive. ha ha ha ha ha ha…

        • Matthew Pilott 11.1.1.1

          really, vto? The electoral return of a party that is no longer in parliament is more important that the global economy?

          I don’t think the criteria for Greatest Living New Zealander is “ability of the political party you previously led to interpret the EFA.” otherwise Hillary wouldn’t have been in the picture when he was alive. A bit trite, don’t you think?

          • vto 11.1.1.1.1

            MP, you know exactly what I am saying you twister.

            Helen Clark and the Labour Party govt rammed through a law which Helen Clark and the Labour Party couldn’t even understand themselves. That is both pathetic and terrible.

            And if you think Winston Peters and NZF are more important than the world economy then that’s your prerogative.

          • Felix 11.1.1.1.2

            vto,

            Why not a film about the 19th century missionaries? They must have had some fascinating experiences, travelling the world and interacting with different cultures.

            What great stories!

  12. Matthew Pilott 12

    Yes Tim, let’s all think in the short term and look for quick fixes.

    What’s the old saying? “what got you into this mess will get you out of this mess”.

    oh wait – I just made that up and it’s absolute rubbish. Hmm… Maybe a different approach is needed.

    I love the talk of this ‘fiscal fool Cullen’ coupled with a stern lecture about how bad debt is. How does that work, Munty? Cullen doesn’t trash our economy, instead he spends surpluses on getting rid of debt. Now we have proportinally low levels of debt and are in a good spot, compared to other countries, because debt is bad, right? Yet Cullen is a fiscal fool – for doing what you’ve just said is good.

    Your monocular vision sure has played havoc with your peripheral vision, Monty.

    • Tim 12.1

      Matthew you appear to be (how to put this delicately)… stupid. Short term pain, long term gain is what I’m advocating. Instead of massive borrowing to try to stimulate the economy we’re better off with a smaller program that doesn’t raise our debt levels through the roof.

      Are you telling me you want massive debt?

      You’re welcome to think Cullen did something wonderful for us but all I see is squandering of surpluses and criminal covering up of projected deficits. Oh yeah, and being taken for a sucker by Toll.

      You’re trying to have it both ways Matthew, and it’s pretty transparent that you simply take an opposite view of whatever the National government does as your viewpoint. It must really piss you off that Key’s government is doing so well 🙂
      It makes me laugh, because you can’t help taking the opposite stance and it makes you look (how to put this delicately)… stupid.

      • lprent 12.1.1

        Tim, you’re not just stupid, you are really thick (bugger the delicate bit). Please go and learn how to read a balance sheet – comment when you know what in the hell you’re talking about…

        You are totally wrong. In essence there were no surpluses.

        That was a public perception formed by the Nat’s and Act lying through their teeth and selectively picking the accounts to show what they wanted to see – ie on a Profit & Loss level. If you took it out into the Balance sheet level and looked at longer-term liabilities, you get the specter of liability of the superannuation system that National gave us in 1975. That wasn’t fully funded and without the superannuation fund (that the robber baron Nats wish to raid) would look even worse.

        If you looked at that within the mix, then we have been effectively in deficit until some time after 2050. Taxes should have been raised rather than reduced to cover for that liability. The later it is left, then the higher the cost will be to the taxpayers in a few years.

        Usually at this point I hear the mantra of better productivity from the right – but that is a matter of faith rather than practice. A prudent government doesn’t cast dice on future generations. Similarly it shouldn’t write budgets with future possible gains being inked in to pay for future liabilities. If you haven’t already realized the gain then it doesn’t exist in prudent accounting.

        The fact remains that since 1975 we had rising debt to ridiculous levels. The Nats in the 1990’s managed to slow the rate of increase. Cullen managed to drop it down. This managed to massively increase the effective productivity of the state sector because we stopped paying 25% or so in our fiscal budget on interest repayments (which is what it got to at peak).

        Of course I suspect that what we’re going to get from these bozo’s in government now is a merchant bankers budget. Long on speculative hope based on faith, debt and high on risk. But that describes the NACT’s doesn’t it.

  13. rave 13

    Obama like Key is in the business of stimulating profits.
    Have a read of Michel Chossudovsky’s recent article
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12517

  14. Matthew Pilott 14

    vto – course I do – but the interpretation of that is exactly what I said.

    I can’t imagine the Peters’ think making a good cartoon though – how would you go about it? I suppose there could be a ‘no’ sign, it’s almost obligatory. Maybe something about him being asked whether he filed his return properly, before he dashes away in a helicopter…

    • vto 14.1

      MP, do you not agree that a govt ramming through a law that it doesn’t understand itself and is incapable of interpretation is a joke?

      • Felix 14.1.1

        Are you talking about the Wanganui gang insignia law? I fully agree.

        • vto 14.1.1.1

          ha ha Felix, don’t know as I haven’t followed that. But if so same call of ‘terrible and pathetic’ applies. Bloody dipshits wasting all our hard-earned taxes on crap for selfish political purposes.

          But you imply that you agree that the EFA is/was a joke and terrible and pathetic. Excellent.

          edit: dont understand your 1.24 comment but sounds worthy

      • lprent 14.1.2

        Yeah the “fire at will” act really tops the cake for that approach.

        • vto 14.1.2.1

          hang on hang on, you’re taking me off track. All parties engage in legislation for crap self-serving political purposes.

          The point, and difference, with the EFA is that the Labour govt couldn’t even understand the law itself. Really, why pass something that is incapable of interpretation? Bad governance in the extreme. That is the biggest joke.

          It is like a massive prang to the side of the Clark credibility jalopy.

          • Matthew Pilott 14.1.2.1.1

            I haven’t seen the story about Labour not understanding it – but I still don’t think it would rank up there among Clark’s acts, good or bad, as you describe it. Of course it’s your 2c, as you say, and maybe you feel electoral funding really affects your life, somehow. That’s the problem with ‘Greatest’ anything – it is very subjective. I mean hell, people can’t even agree that the Amazon is the ‘Greatest’ river.

  15. vto 15

    MP, its in a statement from the labour party’s auditors in their electoral returns. It was in the media this morning.

    You really don’t think passing a law that you don’t understand doesn’t rank up there? I consider it mind-blowingly reckless, criminal, unconstitutional and extremely bad governance. It stinks to high heaven and just rides arrogantly over the people and all who came before Clark in setting up the current governing structure we live under. It aint just my 2c, it’s my $2billion.

    Of course nobody on here will admit such. Which weakens this site’s cred as well. But that’s par for the course.

    Anyway, its almost beer o’clock.

    • vto 15.1

      Bit more MP.. You say “maybe you feel electoral funding really affects your life, somehow”. Classic case of MP distortion. It isn’t the electoral funding issue that affects my life, it is the bad governance. Riding roughshod like that is on the path to dictatorship. Recall how many have described and consider Clark? That H….r word that can’t be used on here?

    • Pascal's bookie 15.2

      Of course nobody on here will admit such. Which weakens this site’s cred as well. But that’s par for the course.

      hah. If people don’t agree with your opinion, then that is damaging to their cred, and just goes to show their arrogance. Good one.

      I’ve had the day off, went and saw a band last night, stayed out well past beer o’clock, so I’ve missed this awesome admission from Labour.

      But I’m guessing it says something like that they couldn’t always be sure what was an election expense? That’s not an admission that they didn’t understand the law, it’s an admission that they were unsure about how relevant third parties would interpret the law. It’s sort of the opposite of arrogance isn’t it?

      I seem to remember that in the big to do about the Auditor General last time around, he was including things as election expenses that made all sorts of people’s eyebrows twitter. If an MP flew back to his electorate for a clinic, but had a campaign meeting on the same trip, the travel costs were counted as election expenses. That sort of thing.

      Are you confident that you could detail everything that someone else would consider an election expense?

      And politicians pass laws all the time that are interpreted by the enforcement agencies in ways the pollies didn’t anticipate. ‘unconstitutional’ nope.

      And the reason I won’t ‘admit’ such, is because I don’t think it’s true. So go drink your beer, and come back when you might want to explain your position, listen to others and accept that people can honestly have different opinions about things than you. You arrogant fuck.

      • vto 15.2.1

        woooo… still hungover P’s b?

        go and check it yourself. It’s the fucking truth. Thats why the last lot got people’s blood boiling and they were turfed out of office.

        Its labour that were the arrogant fucks.

        They were hated by an awlful lot of NZ that previously had time for them. Clark lost it at the end. This was one of the prime reasons. You still don’t realise that.

        • Pascal's bookie 15.2.1.1

          “woooo still hungover P’s b?”

          Nah not hungover at all. Are you drunk enough to start making sense yet? 😉

          “go and check it yourself.”

          Learn how to post a link if you want people to know what it is you are talking about.

          It’s the fucking truth. Thats why the last lot got people’s blood boiling and they were turfed out of office.

          What’s the fucking truth? That no one here will ‘admit’ things you believe to be true but won’t explain, because it’s just your 2c or your too busy at the moment or whatever.

          When you first showed up here you were going to ‘educate’ us lefties as I recall. How is that not arrogant? Are you starting to understand that ‘Arrogance’ is a perception thing.

          We all get that you think Labour was arrogant. Good for you. So what? All politicians are arrogant. What could be more arrogant than putting yourself up for the job of running the country because you think you know how to it better than everyone else. When an electorate goes sour on politicians for any reason they start to see them as arrogant. It’s not the big causative deal that you seem to think it is. The fact that they were getting tagged as arrogant, is a symptom of their problem, and a magnifier of it, rather than the main cause.

          And how is telling me what I don’t realise not arrogant? I know full well that that is how Labour was seen. Big deal.

          What I’m wanting to know is why this particular thing that you are talking about today is arrogant, and unconstitutional and what have you. I note you didn’t bother responding to that part my of my comment. If I might be so arrogant, can I ask if I was close in my guess of what it was about?

          Yes, my comment was hot tempered, but read your comments today. What got my blood up was your insinuation that commenters here are being dishonest because we don’t say we agree with you.

          If you don’t care to apologise, that’s fine, perceptions can be changed to account.

          • vto 15.2.1.1.1

            sheesh you guys are sensitive sometimes. the threads posted on here are equally provocative etc at times. what’s the matter, can’t handle your own medicine? i think p’s b you have slanted off on one sentence of mine and gone all unstable.

          • Pascal's bookie 15.2.1.1.2

            I addressed as much of your comment as I could vto. Read both my comments and I think I explain my position fairly clearly.

            I’m still not quite sure what your point is though. I know you think that the Labour were all evil and arrogant. But you don’t seem to be able or willing to expand on that. And yet you call me a liar if a disagree with you, claiming that I know these things but won’t ‘admit’ it. Or you make big pronouncements about how I am not aware of things, just because I haven’t mentioed them.

            I can handle my medicine vto, but can you justify administering it?

  16. m_c 16

    I don’t really think the two packages are comparable. New Zealand’s entire population is the equivalent of a large SUBURB of a major US city, with a completely different political atmosphere (the Dems are probably to the right of National, to be honest) and completely different issues. They are really really in the shit over there, they are thinking of nationalizing the banks for goodness sake.

    Different stimulus packages represent the different scenarios countries are facing – and it still remains to be seen whether or not Obama’s will work. How much money is involved means jack when we’ve yet to see the results – more money does not nescessarily mean more stimulus. Especially when Americans don’t have a federal welfare system or federal healthcare entitlement which are things we take for granted here in New Zealand. Obama s cutting taxes for 95% of American workers – but that’s like putting a Band Aid on a gushing wound. Increased social spending won’t create jobs when they are losing nearly a million a month.

    I don’t think the two packages are really comparable because the situations are entirely different and therefore the packages are too.

  17. Jum 17

    Vto

    Who took a jet around NZ to show how rich he was? Key. Talk about Key’s arrogance, swanning around NZ when he has already been recorded as knowing the recession (depression) was coming over a year ago. (or did Ashcroft help by paying for the fuel?)

    Clark was accused of being arrogant because two bodyguards closed off a doorway for the safety of the PM and inadvertently stopped a disabled person from parking closer. Apart from the fact she had no say in it, do you finally get the drift of the worst case of arrogance.

    KEY?

    You’re right Vto.

    Go to the top of the class for finally getting the fact that arrogance is in the eye of the beholder but it is also about Kiwi fairness.

  18. Jum 18

    vinsin
    March 6, 2009 at 8:54 am

    said “Hmm someone named Gaylord talking about a soft cxxk.
    I’m sure there’s a joke there somewhere but nope, too easy, i’m sure there are better things to do with my time.”

    Who let vinsin loose with time travel?

    Captcha: 18th MADMAN

  19. vto 19

    Bloody idiots. I made one highly specific point re labour passing a law which it didn’t understand, and all that flowed from that, including bad governance in the extreme, arrogance, indicative of why they lost support, smashed cred., etc.

    It is pretty simple to understand what I was saying.

    You guys think you have addressed all the bits and bobs? You’re just all hooked up on the charge of arrogance.

    You clearly see no problem with a govt passing a law which it didn’t understand.

    The EFA and labours involvement in it was total bullshit.

    • vto 19.1

      and jumskull, show where I referred to any arrogance or lack of of Key? I was talking about labour towards the end. Nothing else. Don’t imply things that I haven’t said.

      • Pascal's bookie 19.1.1

        Now who can’t take his own medicine? You called everyone here a liar.

        I’ve explained in my first comment about the ‘not understanding the law’ business. Perhaps you missed it.

        But I’m guessing it says something like that they couldn’t always be sure what was an election expense? That’s not an admission that they didn’t understand the law, it’s an admission that they were unsure about how relevant third parties would interpret the law. It’s sort of the opposite of arrogance isn’t it?

        I seem to remember that in the big to do about the Auditor General last time around, he was including things as election expenses that made all sorts of people’s eyebrows twitter. If an MP flew back to his electorate for a clinic, but had a campaign meeting on the same trip, the travel costs were counted as election expenses. That sort of thing.

        Are you confident that you could detail everything that someone else would consider an election expense?

        Care to address it, or are you still just hung up on me calling your own arrogance out?

        • vto 19.1.1.1

          oh bloody hell. I did read that but didn’t feel it covered my point so didn’t reply. Do you not recall Kings “law of common sense” call? That was because she could not be sure how the law would apply. You miss my point. The labour govt passed a law it did not understand. That was known at the time (King’s admission). The labour party has then again admitted such in its electoral return last week.

          If the govt did not understand the detail of how the law would apply then it should not have passed the law. That is my point. It is bad governance in the extreme. And that is where the charge of arrogance arises.
          Not understanding the detail of a law at the time of passing is quite different from a court or A-G making its own interpretation of a law subsequently. The difference is a subtle but major point.

          As for my own arrogance??? Ffs you took one sentence where I suggested nobody here would admit that labour conducted such reckless and shit governance and strung that out to …

          I absolutely did not call everyone on here a liar.

          First answer the question about whether or not such was in fact bad governance. If you decide it is then call the labour lot out on it. If you think it is fine law-making then that is fine but I disagree vehemently. Your answer to this main question, which you re-posted above does not address this subtle question, as I explained. And nobody else has tried to answer it.

          Is it bad law-making or not?

          • Pascal's bookie 19.1.1.1.1

            No one says that the law was completely well done. Yes Labour bears blame for that, but there is a hell of a lot to go around. The highly partisan nature of the way things went down didn’t help, nor did the media with it’s retarded ‘democracy under attack’ horseshit.

            These sorts of laws are always complicated. Always. there will always be grey areas. this is what National seized on, grey areas, that would normally be left up to the enforcement agencies to rule on, in the spirit of the act, with commomn sense applying and what have you, and made out that every instance should be black and white.

            Ever bought a beer in a pub when you’re intoxicated? Or with the intent to become intoxicated? Did the bar lose it’s license and have to pay a big fine? No, even though that’s what the law says. See, grey areas, common sense. Bad governance? You make a perfect law.

            So, your ‘not understanding’ the law overplays it IMV. you obviously disagree.

            So, could have been better, but far from the appalling bad governance you make it out to be. Definitely an improvement on the old Act. It’ll be interesting to see how the Nat’s deal with it.

            You keep saying that this was the thing that brought Labour down, but there is no evidence for that. You obviously thought it was akin to H8LER, but that doesn’t mean most people did. There were polls before the election about what voters thought the most important issues were, and the EFA hardly even made the list.

            Re you calling folks here liars, which you now deny:

            Here is what you said:

            “Of course nobody on here will admit such. Which weakens this site’s cred as well. But that’s par for the course.”

            In my book that most definitely is calling everyone a liar. You may not have meant it, or just considered it a throwaway, but tough.

            Call me a liar, based only on the fact that I don’t agree with you, and I’m going to call you out on it. Yes it is arrogant. Actual arrogance based on a belief that your opinion is the obvious truth that no one could honestly question.

    • lprent 19.2

      Yes that “fire at will” act, passed without select committee due process seems to have all of those problems. What are the implications for benefits? Will it cause people to avoid employers who offer it (I will) etc etc. NACT doesn’t understand the implications because they didn’t look at them prior to passing the pile of bollocks.

      I suppose that you approve of that act’s process right?

      • vto 19.2.1

        No I absolutely do not lprent. If any party or govt does that shit then I will call it shit, be it nats, labour, maori, act etc. They are mostly as bad as each other but Clark and the EFA was up with the worst of the worst in NZ history. Ps b, who cares what the old act said, in case you still haven’t got my point – it is the way in which the law was enacted that shit stinks, not the law itself, which is and has always been my point. (I think the law falls short as well, but that is another story)

        Reading your post above, imo you either don;t quite understand the detail of the system and how it should work, or you simply underestimate what went on re the EFA. For partisan reasons it would seem.

        Our system has major flaws which allow this obscene concentration of power in the hands of the few at the top. In the end Clark was taking advantage of those flaws. If Key does the same then he will be a smelly arse as well. Muldoon was one.

        (fuck this is a good ding dong – reckon we still be cyber friends in the end?)

  20. Jum 20

    Monty
    March 6, 2009 at 9:15 am

    I always thought economics was really easy.

    Anything Labour puts forward is positive and will help people help themselves = economic progress for all.

    Anything NAct puts forward is negative and helps only itself, at the expense of those who can least afford it = economic recession for all except those who were quick enough to stow their millions in safe tax havens.

    That applies to countries as well as people.

    • sweeetdisorder 20.1

      Jum

      do you have a brain? can you think for yourself?

      Or is it simply a case of labour good, national bad with you?

      If ever there was an example of a sheep from Animal Farm its you.

      • Robinsod 20.1.1

        Ha! You’re using lines from burt! And you’re calling people stupid? If I may quote we burty back at you – pot/kettle…

        Again, love this reply function – it lets me be very clear which rightard I am schooling…

        • sweeetdisorder 20.1.1.1

          Robinsod

          who is this Burt and what lines am I using?

          I was replying to Jum, and I have not called anyone stupid. How are you schooling me?

          Suggest you need to read what is written a bit more carefully before you reply.

  21. Jum 21

    vto

    Have a cup of tea and a lie-down.

    • vto 21.1

      ha ha, been trying but the steam coming from my ears has clouded the way to the kitchen. tell me – is jum a type of banana?

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  • Fission by the river
    This is where we ate our lunch last Wednesday. Never mind your châteaux and castles and whatnot, we like to enjoy a baguette in the shadow of a nuclear power plant; a station that puts out more than twice as much as Manapouri using nothing more than tiny atoms to bring ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    2 weeks ago

  • Prime Minister wraps up visit to Japan
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has just finished a successful three-day visit to Japan, where he strengthened political relationships and boosted business links. Mr Luxon’s visit culminated in a bilateral meeting with Japanese Prime Minister Kishida Fumio followed by a state dinner. “It was important for me to meet Prime Minister Kishida in person ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 hours ago
  • Major business deals signed on PM’s Japan trip
    Significant business deals have been closed during the visit of Prime Minister Christopher Luxon to Japan this week, including in the areas of space, renewable energy and investment.  “Commercial deals like this demonstrate that we don’t just export high-quality agricultural products to Japan, but also our world-class technology, expertise, and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    11 hours ago
  • Strategic Security speech, Tokyo
    Minasan, konnichiwa, kia ora and good afternoon everyone. Thank you for the invitation to speak to you today and thank you to our friends at the Institute for International Socio-Economic Studies and NEC for making this event possible today.  It gives me great pleasure to be here today, speaking with ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    11 hours ago
  • National Infrastructure Pipeline worth over $120 billion
    The National Infrastructure Pipeline, which provides a national view of current or planned infrastructure projects, from roads, to water infrastructure, to schools, and more, has climbed above $120 billion, Infrastructure Minister Chris Bishop says. “Our Government is investing a record amount in modern infrastructure that Kiwis can rely on as ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    13 hours ago
  • Making it easier to build infrastructure
    The Government is modernising the Public Works Act to make it easier to build infrastructure, Minister for Land Information Chris Penk announced today. An independent panel will undertake an eight-week review of the Act and advise on common sense changes to enable large scale public works to be built faster and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • NZ enhances North Korea sanctions monitoring
    New Zealand will enhance its defence contributions to monitoring violations of sanctions against North Korea, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon announced today.  The enhancement will see the New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) increase its contributions to North Korea sanctions monitoring, operating out of Japan. “This increase reflects the importance New Zealand ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Speech to Safeguard National Health and Safety Conference
    Good afternoon everyone. It’s great to be with you all today before we wrap up Day One of the annual Safeguard National Health and Safety Conference. Thank you to the organisers and sponsors of this conference, for the chance to talk to you about the upcoming health and safety consultation. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Ōtaki to north of Levin alliance agreements signed
    Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed an important milestone for the Ōtaki to north of Levin Road of National Significance (RoNS), following the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) signing interim alliance agreements with two design and construction teams who will develop and ultimately build the new expressway.“The Government’s priority for transport ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Improvements to stopping Digital Child Exploitation
    The Department of Internal Affairs [Department] is making a significant upgrade to their Digital Child Exploitation Filtering System, which blocks access to websites known to host child sexual abuse material, says Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden.  “The Department will incorporate the up-to-date lists of websites hosting child sexual ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New vaccine research aims to combat prevalent bovine disease
    A vaccine to prevent an infectious disease that costs New Zealand cattle farmers more than $190 million each year could radically improve the health of our cows and boost on-farm productivity, Associate Agriculture Minister Andrew Hoggard says. The Ministry for Primary Industries is backing a project that aims to develop ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Making it easier to build granny flats
    The Government has today announced that it is making it easier for people to build granny flats, Acting Prime Minister Winston Peters and RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop say. “Making it easier to build granny flats will make it more affordable for families to live the way that suits them ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • High Court Judge appointed
    Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced the appointment of Auckland King’s Counsel Gregory Peter Blanchard as a High Court Judge. Justice Blanchard attended the University of Auckland from 1991 to 1995, graduating with an LLB (Honours) and Bachelor of Arts (English). He was a solicitor with the firm that is now Dentons ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Health workforce numbers rise
    Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says new data released today shows encouraging growth in the health workforce, with a continued increase in the numbers of doctors, nurses and midwives joining Health New Zealand. “Frontline healthcare workers are the beating heart of the healthcare system. Increasing and retaining our health workforce ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Government to overhaul firearms laws
    Associate Justice Minister Nicole McKee has today announced a comprehensive programme to reform New Zealand's outdated and complicated firearms laws. “The Arms Act has been in place for over 40 years. It has been amended several times – in a piecemeal, and sometimes rushed way. This has resulted in outdated ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government delivers landmark specialist schools investment
    The coalition Government is delivering record levels of targeted investment in specialist schools so children with additional needs can thrive. As part of Budget 24, $89 million has been ringfenced to redevelop specialist facilities and increase satellite classrooms for students with high needs. This includes: $63 million in depreciation funding ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Major health and safety consultation begins
    A substantial consultation on work health and safety will begin today with a roadshow across the regions over the coming months, says Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden.  This the first step to deliver on the commitment to reforming health and safety law and regulations, set out in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Growing the potential of New Zealand’s forestry sector in partnership
    Forestry Minister Todd McClay, today announced the start of the Government’s plan to restore certainty and confidence in the forestry and wood processing sector. “This government will drive investment to unlock the industry’s economic potential for growth,” Mr McClay says. “Forestry’s success is critical to rebuilding New Zealand’s economy, boosting ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government cancels forestry ETS annual service charges for 2023-24
    Annual service charges in the forestry Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) will be cancelled for 2023/24, Forestry Minister Todd McClay says. “The sector has told me the costs imposed on forestry owners by the previous government were excessive and unreasonable and I agree,” Mr McClay says. “They have said that there ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Speech to the LGNZ Infrastructure Symposium
    Introduction Thank you for having me here today and welcome to Wellington, the home of the Hurricanes, the next Super Rugby champions. Infrastructure – the challenge This government has inherited a series of big challenges in infrastructure. I don’t need to tell an audience as smart as this one that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government boosts Agriculture and food trade with China
    Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay and Food Safety Minister Andrew Hoggard welcomed outcomes to boost agricultural and food trade between New Zealand and China. A number of documents were signed today at Government House that will improve the business environment between New Zealand and China, and help reduce barriers, including on infant formula ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • NZ and China launch Services Trade Negotiations
    Trade Minister Todd McClay, and China’s Commerce Minister Wang Wentao, today announced the official launch of Negotiations on Services Trade between the two countries.  “The Government is focused on opening doors for services exporters to grow the New Zealand’s economy,” Mr McClay says.  As part of the 2022 New Zealand-China Free Trade Agreement Upgrade ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Prime Minister Luxon meets with Premier Li
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon met with Chinese Premier Li Qiang at Government House in Wellington today.  “I was pleased to welcome Premier Li to Wellington for his first official visit, which marks 10 years since New Zealand and China established a Comprehensive Strategic Partnership,” Mr Luxon says. “The Premier and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government and business tackling gender pay gap
    The coalition Government is taking action to reduce the gender pay gap in New Zealand through the development of a voluntary calculation tool. “Gender pay gaps have impacted women for decades, which is why we need to continue to drive change in New Zealand,” Acting Minister for Women Louise Upston ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Funding Boost for Rural Support Trusts
    The coalition Government is boosting funding for Rural Support Trusts to provide more help to farmers and growers under pressure, Rural Communities Minister Mark Patterson announced today. “A strong and thriving agricultural sector is crucial to the New Zealand economy and one of the ways to support it is to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Latest data shows size of public service decreasing
    Spending on contractors and consultants continues to fall and the size of the Public Service workforce has started to decrease after years of growth, according to the latest data released today by the Public Service Commission. Workforce data for the quarter from 31 December 23 to 31 March 24 shows ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Speech to the Law Association
    Thank you to the Law Association for inviting me to speak this morning. As a former president under its previous name — the Auckland District Law Society — I take particular satisfaction in seeing this organisation, and its members, in such good heart. As Attorney-General, I am grateful for these ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • 25 years on, NZ reaffirms enduring friendship with Timor Leste
    New Zealand is committed to working closely with Timor-Leste to support its prosperity and resilience, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.   “This year is the 25th anniversary of New Zealand sending peacekeepers to Timor-Leste, who contributed to the country’s stabilisation and ultimately its independence,” Mr Peters says.    “A quarter ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Inquiry requested into rural banking
    Promoting robust competition in the banking sector is vital to rebuilding the economy, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says.  “New Zealanders deserve a banking sector that is as competitive as possible. Banking services play an important role in our communities and in the economy. Kiwis rely on access to lending when ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Ministry for Regulation targets red tape to keep farmers and growers competitive
    Regulation Minister David Seymour, Environment Minister Penny Simmonds, and Food Safety Minister Andrew Hoggard have today announced a regulatory sector review on the approval process for new agricultural and horticultural products.    “Red tape stops farmers and growers from getting access to products that have been approved by other OECD countries. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Government to reverse blanket speed limit reductions
    The Coalition Government will reverse Labour’s blanket speed limit reductions by 1 July 2025 through a new Land Transport Rule released for public consultation today, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  The draft speed limit rule will deliver on the National-ACT coalition commitment to reverse the previous government’s blanket speed limit ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Chair appointments for NZSO, CNZ and NZ On Air
    Minister Paul Goldsmith is making major leadership changes within both his Arts and Media portfolios. “I am delighted to announce Carmel Walsh will be officially stepping into the role of Chair of the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra, having been acting Chair since April,” Arts Minister Paul Goldsmith says.  “Carmel is ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Government focus on long-term food, fibre growth
    Food and fibre export revenue is tipped to reach $54.6 billion this year and hit a record $66.6b in 2028 as the Government focuses on getting better access to markets and cutting red tape, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay and Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones say. “This achievement is testament ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Govt consulting on cutting red tape for exporters
    A new export exemption proposal for food businesses demonstrates the coalition Government’s commitment to reducing regulatory barriers for industry and increasing the value of New Zealand exports, which gets safe New Zealand food to more markets, says Food Safety Minister Andrew Hoggard.  “The coalition Government has listened to the concerns ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • New Zealand and Philippines elevating relationship
    New Zealand and Philippines are continuing to elevate our relationship, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.   “The leaders of New Zealand and Philippines agreed in April 2024 to lift our relationship to a Comprehensive Partnership by 2026,” Mr Peters says. “Our visit to Manila this week has been an excellent ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Paid Parental Leave increase to help families
    Workplace Relations and Safety Minister, Brooke van Velden says paid parental leave increase from 1 July will put more money in the pockets of Kiwi parents and give them extra support as they take precious time off to bond with their newborns. The increase takes effect from 1 July 2024 ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Defence increases UN Command commitment
    The number of New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) personnel deployed to the Republic of Korea is increasing, Defence Minister Judith Collins and Foreign Minister Winston Peters announced today.  NZDF will deploy up to 41 additional personnel to the Republic of Korea, increasing the size of its contribution to the United ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • New Zealand to attend 'Summit on Peace in Ukraine' in Switzerland
    New Zealand will be represented at the Summit on Peace in Ukraine by Minister Mark Mitchell in Switzerland later this week.    “New Zealand strongly supports Ukraine’s efforts to build a comprehensive, just, and lasting peace,” Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.   “Minister Mitchell is a senior Cabinet Minister and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Big step forward for M.bovis programme
    Farmers’ hard work is paying off in the fight against Mycoplasma bovis (M. bovis) with the move to a national pest management plan marking strong progress in the eradication effort, says Biosecurity Minister Andrew Hoggard.  “The plan, approved by the Coalition Government, was proposed by the programme partners DairyNZ, Beef ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Build To Rent opening welcomed by Housing Minister
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Housing Minister Chris Bishop formally opened a new Build to Rent development in Mt Wellington this morning. “The Prime Minister and I were honoured to cut the ribbon of Resido, New Zealand’s largest Build to Rent development to date.  “Build to Rent housing, like the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Agriculture to come out of the ETS
    The Government will deliver on its election commitment to take agriculture out of the New Zealand Emissions Trading Scheme (NZ ETS) and will establish a new Pastoral Sector Group to constructively tackle biogenic methane, Coalition Government Agriculture and Climate Change Ministers say. Agriculture Minister Todd McClay says New Zealand farmers ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

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