Open mike 04/01/2015

Written By: - Date published: 8:01 am, January 4th, 2015 - 288 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmikeThe Authors of the Standard are now in holiday mode. Posting will be less regular and dependant on individual author enthusiasm. Open mike will continue every day and prepare yourself for some year in review posts and some recycling of old stuff. And as R0b has said be nice to each other.

Open mike is your post.

The Standard is not a conspiracy – just a welcome outlet for the expression of views. Leaders that command respect will not be undermined by this.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

288 comments on “Open mike 04/01/2015 ”

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  1. Draco T Bastard 1
    4 January 2015 at 8:30 am

    No UN Vote Can Deny the Palestinian People Their Right to Self Determination

    But the actions of the UN and especially the UK, Israel and the US would indicate that they do not believe that. In fact, their actions would indicate that they believe that they can tell other how they should live.

    • John Shears 1.1
      4 January 2015 at 9:21 am

      Totally agree but how can this arrogant Israeli attitude be changed when it is backed by the US UK & others?

      • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1
        4 January 2015 at 11:59 am

        About the only way I can think of is to continue to show the hypocrisy of the US Empire. Which would mean showing that the US is an empire and that it’s as evil as all other empires that came before it.

  2. philj 2
    4 January 2015 at 8:31 am

    Visiting Auckland. Amazing, new suburbs arising from the paddocks. Motorways, flyovers, building like crazy. I heard English being spoken in Manukau Mall. Auckland is separate from the rest of Aotearoa. More like a bull in a China shop than a runaway train.

    • Colonial Rawshark 2.1
      4 January 2015 at 9:26 am

      Yep, crazy stuff, and you can only see how truly nuts its whole direction is when you don’t actually live there, and are only visiting with fresh eyes.

    • tc 2.2
      4 January 2015 at 10:01 am

      Akl is an asian city now, with no CGT, 1-2% finance available to them and an ability to simply buy residency is it any wonder kids cant get a foothold when our own reserve banks LVR rules also push it further away.

      All those new suburbs no PT, motorways that have been screwed since the 80’s its only going to get worse but as far as those from really dense dirty overcrowded places are concerned its better than what they have come from so they keep coming.

      • Ad 2.2.1
        4 January 2015 at 11:15 am

        Auckland is 40% of everything nz has except livestock, fish, and trees.

      • Stephanie Rodgers 2.2.2
        4 January 2015 at 12:04 pm

        I’m sure it’s possible to criticise our government’s inaction on housing affordability without making racist assumptions about Asians. Overseas buyers inflating house prices is a problem when they’re white, too.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2.2.1
          4 January 2015 at 12:47 pm

          +∞

          Making a dog whistle out of a red herring.

        • The Murphey 2.2.2.2
          4 January 2015 at 1:51 pm

          Q. How were comments made by ‘tc’ “racist assumptions” ?

          Q. Which policy substantiates the comment ?

          • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2.2.2.1
            4 January 2015 at 1:54 pm

            Assumption: “they” all have access to cheap finance. Please remind me which country is “Asia”.

            • Stephanie Rodgers 2.2.2.2.1.1
              4 January 2015 at 1:57 pm

              Also “an ability to simply buy residency”.

              Plus implication that Auckland is “an Asian city” with the assumption that this is a bad thing.

              • The Murphey …
                4 January 2015 at 2:23 pm

                Q. What is it that’s said about assumptions ?

                Q. Do you either of you know ‘tc’ or the intent behind the comments ?

                • tc …
                  4 January 2015 at 2:43 pm

                  Since 09 you can gain residency based on having money to invest, over $10m and no questions asked.

                  Ive been told by lawyers and agents that koreans and chinese can get finance at under 2%, this makes akl property a no brainer without a CGT.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    4 January 2015 at 2:51 pm

                    …without a cgt.

                    Ah, something relevant.

                    As for the rest, are you suggesting that in a situation where there is a country somewhere that has lower interest rates than New Zealand, we ban them from investing here?

                    • Murray Rawshark …
                      4 January 2015 at 8:00 pm

                      I don’t think of buying land as investment. I see it as causing problems and making housing less affordable. I would ban foreigners from buying land, and restrict the amount that could be owned by residents or citizens.

                      As for the lower interest rates – without a CGT and even with one, if money can be borrowed at a much lower percentage than that with which land prices increase, the effect is going to be super inflationary. It’s a bubble that will inevitably burst and then heaps of the land will be owned by banks. Which will be foreign, because we don’t really have any these days.

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  4 January 2015 at 2:46 pm

                  Couldn’t give a rat’s arse about “intention” – I’m concerned about the prejudice and irrelevance of the comments.

                  What has ethnicity got to do with the way property speculation distorts the housing market?

                  • The Murphey …
                    4 January 2015 at 3:30 pm

                    Q. Which government policies and trade agreements with specific nations have not contributed to the distortion of the housing market ?

                    Property speculation not being a monopoly of any singular nationality is a given

                    That however is deflection on your part tied to assumptions made about the original comment from ‘tc’

                    Refusal to recognize intention via dismissive remark confirms misconstruction

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      4 January 2015 at 3:39 pm

                      🙄

                      Methinks you protesteth overmuch. Speculate as to my motive for that.

                    • McFlock …
                      4 January 2015 at 5:18 pm

                      tc said “Auckland is an asian city” when the 2013 census disagrees. There aren’t too many reasons for such a disparity between statement and fact.

                  • Jenny Kirk …
                    4 January 2015 at 6:06 pm

                    I’m not so sure that tc is being racist, but was just making factual comments.
                    I have friends with Chinese relationships and it is well known many Chinese people in particular are able to buy up Auckland properties at inflated rates, at auction, with very cheap finance from their homeland. Any real estate agent will tell you the same. So yes – ethnicity has had a considerable impact on property speculation in recent years in Auckland.
                    And as a former Aucklander, I can attest to the fact that certain townships are known to be enclaves for specific ethnic groupings – eg Howick and Northcote are Chinese and Korean, South Auckland is predominantly Pacifica, East Coast Bays has large groupings of South Africans living there.
                    What’s racist about stating that ?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      4 January 2015 at 6:28 pm

                      Yes, citizens of a country with lower interest rates than those available domestically will always enjoy that advantage.

                      What does their ethnicity have to do with it?

                    • RedLogix …
                      4 January 2015 at 8:56 pm

                      Consider then what happens when you try to buy land in say – Samoa.

                      Many smaller or low development nations strongly restrict land ownership by non-citizens/residents in order to prevent economic colonization by large numbers of wealthier people from larger nations crowding out the locals.

                      Colour that racist if you want.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      5 January 2015 at 12:54 am

                      Good gawd a few of you lefty Kiwis are all so politically correct, conceptual and abstract in your languaging it’s ridiculous.

                      No wonder the rest of the nation has no idea whatsoever what you are ons about.

                      It’s the funniest thing watching a bunch of (I presume) pakehas all so seriously concerned about not offending the cultural and racial sensitivities of other nationalities.

                      Wealthy Chinese are exporting hard currency out of China ASAP (for many varied reasons, but amongst them, getting the hell out of dodge is certainly up there) and putting it into real assets overseas in politically and economically stable countries, ASAP. Everyone knows it. The Chinese doing it aren’t going to be offended if you point it out, because it’s common bloody knowledge.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      5 January 2015 at 6:22 am

                      I presume then you would change the law. Will the new law refer to the ethnicity of the wanna-be investors in any way shape or form?

        • Naki man 2.2.2.3
          4 January 2015 at 9:10 pm

          How true Stephanie, To many racist kiwis, or should I say Asian hater’s.

          • Weepus beard 2.2.2.3.1
            4 January 2015 at 9:29 pm

            What is your point Naki man? Not sure you’ve made one here.

            And your grammar is appalling. Just sayin’

            • McFlock 2.2.2.3.1.1
              4 January 2015 at 9:32 pm

              He has difficulty. English as a first language, and he’s still learning.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2.2.3.1.2
              5 January 2015 at 6:56 am

              Naki Man will do his best to advance the fiction that racism is a left wing trait, using discussions such as this one as evidence.

    • tracey 2.3
      4 January 2015 at 11:42 am

      and it is very quiet right now cos many aucklanders are out of town.

      • greywarshark 2.3.1
        4 January 2015 at 11:47 am

        @ tracey
        The Aucklanders rush to go out of town while they still can. Soon the city will have gobbled the rest of the country and it will be just like exploring the outer ‘burbs.

        • tracey 2.3.1.1
          4 January 2015 at 12:18 pm

          i travelled the “holiday highway” on friday. log jam before the tunnel and around warkworth. returned home at 430pm … a 1.5 hr journey took 3 hours… most spent between observation dome and auckland side of warkworth…

          god only knows how bad yesterday and today…

          millions and millions to solve nothing

      • karol 2.3.2
        4 January 2015 at 5:36 pm

        And the frigging powers that be have closed down the trains for 2 weeks – 3 weeks for the Western Line trains. So those of us left in Auckland who prefer to use public transport, have to negotiate with a lightened summer schedule bus service – with buses often pretty full.

        • Colonial Rawshark 2.3.2.1
          5 January 2015 at 1:04 am

          A two week/three week shut down for trains…bloody hell what a primitive, backward city. A stat day shut down with reduced services for all the days in between would be the absolute minimum service in a modern city, one would have thought.

          • miravox 2.3.2.1.1
            5 January 2015 at 1:30 am

            That’s pretty slack in Auckland – unless they’re using the lighter demand for track maintenance, or something?

            Yup CR, Service in Vienna are a reduced service of 12 mins max between trains on stats. Normal timetable otherwise.

        • Skinny 2.3.2.2
          6 January 2015 at 8:36 am

          So what time of year do you suggest they do major rail track & bridge upgrades where they don’t have passenger trains running every 20 minutes? The reason the powers that be use the Xmas holiday period is because it has less impact on working public.

          Spare a thought for the loyal railway maintenance staff ( many who travel every year from other regions to work Xmas) they give up their family time from boxing day onwards to help fix ‘ungrateful’ Aucklander’s transport woes. I shake my head in disbelief…Jaffa’s.

          • karol 2.3.2.2.1
            6 January 2015 at 8:57 am

            Mate. Many of us remaining in Auckland are working though the holiday period. How are we meant to get to work?

            Many remaining in Auckland also want family time, and some don’t have cars – especially the least well off.

            I actually do not understand why so many people take their annual holidays over the same two weeks.

            They close down the rail system on weekends throughout the year.

            I’ve lived in Sydney and London where they have some pretty extensive rail systems, and never experienced them shutting down their whole system over a 2-3 week “holiday” period.

            • Skinny 2.3.2.2.1.1
              6 January 2015 at 9:06 am

              Umm… they put on replacement buses while the trains are out of service. Honestly your on a hiding to nothing. My point is they do the ‘major work’ at the least busiest time of year same goes with work on the harbour bridge.

              Ok so your a little put out by the inconvenience of traveling on a replacement bus?

              • karol …
                6 January 2015 at 9:28 am

                I don’t think some people realise how many people continue to use Auckland’s public transport over the holiday period.

                Skeleton “summer” timetables, over crowded and full buses. I’ve had one bus pass me by because it had a FULL sign. Walked a few stops. Got the next bus half an hour later that was standing room only right up to the front.

                But of course, the car still dominates in Auckland. Public transport users, people who don’t take beach holidays over the Xmas, New Year period – all worthy of less consideration than the car driving beach holidaying Aucklanders.

        • tracey 2.3.2.3
          6 January 2015 at 8:54 am

          The rich people have left why would they think everyone isn’t at their beach house

          • Skinny 2.3.2.3.1
            6 January 2015 at 9:12 am

            It’s a numbers game. Plenty of factory workers & office plebs are forced to take annual leave as their firms have a holiday shutdown period.

    • Once wasTim 2.4
      4 January 2015 at 12:34 pm

      “Auckland is separate…..etc.”.
      Trouble is – check out Tauranga after an absence of 10 or 12 years too. I used to do tiki tours of Te Puni Kokiri regional offices not that long ago. Returning to Tauranga ….. Christ Almighty! Give it a year, Te Puke will be a suburb, 3 or 4 years – Maketu.
      …. and what I found a little depressing was that the immigrant/student worker population (except for the few lucky ones with a decent employer) – mainly responsible for getting NZ through PSA virus Kiwifruit crisis are, by and large, STILL being treated like shit.
      It reminds me a bit of a town like Martinborough a few years back: Ditzy little Telecom snr management establishing their little weekend retreats so they can ‘get away from it all’. Immediately on establishment, it’s develop, develop, develop (that Rimutaka Hill is SUCH a pain in the BMW, and a train trip is entirely out of the question). You can see what drives Joyce’s ‘holiday highway’ ffs. From my perspective, it’s that they basically love their sloth and ever expanding wasteband. Ugly! very ugly

    • dave 2.5
      4 January 2015 at 8:12 pm

      with the debate surrounding the future of vector share holding aect it isn’t hard
      to make the connection between the confiscation of a private
      property right the public share holding of the aect and a Cyprus style bail in
      national is considering the confiscation of private property for a
      bail in.
      how long before they have bail in of your bank account (open bank
      resolution policy ) home equity as well even fonterra is co op just
      like vector

      i think a campaign focused of the precedence of new Zealand’s first
      bail in could do a lot of damage if the narrative could be changed to
      a bail in (government seizes private property right aect assets in bail in of Auckland)
      new Zealand ruling national government walks all over private property
      rights your house and and bank account are next ,John key bill English
      hide new Zealand’s dire finical position

      • The Murphey 2.5.1
        5 January 2015 at 9:42 am

        Q. “How long before they have bail in of your bank account (OBR)” ?

        The policy was enacted with the intent of it ‘going live’

        Triggers are likely to be opaque and ‘sudden’ except to those in the know

  3. Anne 3
    4 January 2015 at 8:42 am

    On behalf of all of those commenters and readers who come here daily to be intellectually titillated, educated and entertained… could I point out the endless, boring diatribes with that duplicitous dullard, Pete George is putting us off this site in a big way.

    Why is he still here?

    • Paul 3.1
      4 January 2015 at 8:45 am

      Totally agree Anne.
      I stop reading a thread when I see it derailed.
      Better things to do than watch puerile and pointless debating.

      • Anne 3.1.1
        4 January 2015 at 9:05 am

        There is no point anyone wasting time and energy trying to argue with someone who constantly derails and distracts away from rational debate out of some kind of personal, perverse pleasure.

        • Clemgeopin 3.1.1.1
          4 January 2015 at 9:26 am

          He is a RW apologist pushing their cause and batting for them, yet pretending that he is not one of them!

          • Karen 3.1.1.1.1
            4 January 2015 at 9:49 am

            +100 Anne.

            Scrolling down the comments has become an onerous chore because of the persistent derailing by PG. I am sure he is deliberately sabotaging this site. I ignore his posts as any response just leads to more of the same, but there will always be people who try to correct the inaccuracies and distortions, and then he responds with more drivel.

        • greywarshark 3.1.1.2
          4 January 2015 at 11:49 am

          @ Anne hear, hear, See my comment on Sisyphus below. It is meant to amuse but it has point.

          It’s just not derailing that annoys me, its his frequency. Every second or third one. If it was medieval times he could he employed in copying holy books, and he could write all day doing a great service for the illiterate.

          Perhaps he could start expressing himself through cartoons that would make subtle points in an interesting way. But then his subtleties are employed in making confusing mixed messages. It would be like a TS original and unique crossword-mental exercise. Instead now he just drives us mental.

        • Once wasTim 3.1.1.3
          4 January 2015 at 12:45 pm

          +100 (hence my intermittent visits. PG among others …. but then I guess it says more about them than those he/they attempt to foist their hugely gorgeous intellects and egos on. (I’m truly in awe – NOT)

      • greywarshark 3.1.2
        4 January 2015 at 12:58 pm

        @ Paul 3.1 and Anne 3
        You were thinking no doubt of PG in your comment but I think it applies to the present carry-on over phillip ure and The Allen.

        Snipe, snipe those two who shouldn’t be encouraged. Or else they will use the site as their ultimate fight arena while pretending to want to discuss political matters. And reply to criticisms with either superior put-downs or sneers that are out of balance to what has been said. Great derailers really, just like PG.

        And they will take over any thread they get pushed on to without hold or bar until it is dominated by them and their personal interactions which don’t heighten the ‘tone’ of the blog. It then appears trivial and owned by fools. Allowed to continue it will register on others as Shakespeare put it –

        http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1896522-the-tragedy-of-macbeth
        To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,…
        It is a tale
        Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
        Signifying nothing.
        Macbeth (Act 5, Scene 5, lines 17-28)

        The tolerance of PG is a weakness even on the basis that trying to put him right and all RW trials is a sacred task of the left. Allowing anyone who wants to continually dominate the community trying for intelligent learning and discussion, with their own combative personal whines and sneers diminishes the blog. Bad12 got put down smartly because he was combative to a poster and I don’t see that he was worse than pu and TA.

        I had hope that they would have self-control and express thoughtful ideas, as they are clever, but they keep turning to their own obssessions and juvenile fights. Being juvenile a bit is funny and fresh, a lot is limp and boring. I think it is time for me to spend the warm days of summer at something with outcomes that are useful to me, so I will break my obssession with the TS discussion for a while.
        edited

        • The Al1en 3.1.2.1
          4 January 2015 at 1:04 pm

          That’s twice now, to two different people 🙄 😆
          How much validation are you seeking? I mean really, twice in an hour?

          http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04012015/#comment-946791

        • The Al1en 3.1.2.2
          4 January 2015 at 1:24 pm

          “Bad12 got put down smartly because he was combative to a poster and I don’t see that he was worse than pu and TA.”

          No he didn’t, and what he did was much worse.
          f you’re going to be weak and call for a ban, at least have a correct precedence to rely on.

          “I think it is time for me to spend the warm days of summer at something with outcomes that are useful to me, so I will break my obssession with the TS discussion for a while.”

          Good for you. Enjoy your holiday, mate.
          See you when you get back. :wave:

    • The Al1en 3.2
      4 January 2015 at 9:06 am

      Pg doesn’t put me off this site half as much as ure does, and he’s obnoxious, equally boring and duplicitous and constantly tries to derail and distract rational debate out of some kind of personal, perverse pleasure, but each to their own I suppose is the moral of the story.
      I certainly wouldn’t run or join a campaign to get either banned though. For grown ups, that’s really lame.

      • marty mars 3.2.1
        4 January 2015 at 9:25 am

        “I certainly wouldn’t run or join a campaign to get either banned though.”

        me either or even one to ban you a lien 🙂

        • The Al1en 3.2.1.1
          4 January 2015 at 9:32 am

          “each to their own I suppose is the moral of the story”

          And it’s The Al1en, as you know, you old michael laws-a-like, you 🙂 😆

        • phillip ure 3.2.1.2
          4 January 2015 at 9:38 am

          but u can call him ‘al’…

          • The Al1en 3.2.1.2.1
            4 January 2015 at 9:46 am

            Indeed, though I did that gag a couple of years ago. Welcome to the party. Better late than never, eh?

            But so you know, Al1 al1en, alien, ta, TA, they’re all good. 😉

            • marty mars 3.2.1.2.1.1
              4 January 2015 at 9:54 am

              out of my ones – allen, The. or a lien, which one do you dislike the most?

              • The Al1en …
                4 January 2015 at 9:56 am

                “Dislike” doesn’t even come in to it, mars.
                But how you expose your wilful ignorance and hypocrisy/double standards is your choice.

              • greywarshark …
                4 January 2015 at 11:59 am

                @ marty mars
                Snipe, snipe those two. Don’t encourage them I suggest. if we do they will use our site as their ultimate fight arena while pretending to want to discuss political matters. And reply to criticisms with either superior put-downs or sneers that are out of balance to what has been said. Great derailers really, just like PG.
                edited

                • The Al1en …
                  4 January 2015 at 12:09 pm

                  So what are you doing now if it’s not snipe snipe? Come down from that pedestal you put yourself on and wise the hell up. 🙄

                  And “our site”

                  See the bit about some with way too much invested.

      • weka 3.2.2
        4 January 2015 at 10:05 am

        Pg doesn’t put me off this site half as much as ure does, and he’s obnoxious, equally boring and duplicitous and constantly tries to derail and distract rational debate out of some kind of personal, perverse pleasure, but each to their own I suppose is the moral of the story.

        I certainly wouldn’t run or join a campaign to get either banned though. For grown ups, that’s really lame.

        I don’t think pu is as bad as PG. Nor are you The Al1en. But the two of you together certainly are PG’s equal.

        (that’s a comment on impact on debate and culture, not who you are as people).

        • The Al1en 3.2.2.1
          4 January 2015 at 10:12 am

          “But the two of you together certainly are PG’s equal.”

          If you look at most of our exchanges, usually I’ll point out correcting information or provide an alternative view, for balance, before being roundly abused, insulted and demeaned – Just like others on here get when they dare disagree with philip ure or prove him factually incorrect.
          But I would concede that the aftermath can be quite distracting, though like when I see other spark ups between usual candidates, I can skip past if I’m not in the mood, so impact on debate wise from a personal perspective, unlike pg where he deliberately goes off on tangents and won’t respond to questions, I think the comparison a little unwarranted, but each to their own.

          • weka 3.2.2.1.1
            4 January 2015 at 10:22 am

            Sure, but my comment was about the impact on the site, not the content or intention of what you or pu or PG does. Anne has spoken up for the people that are feeling put off by PG. My comment is that in addition to PG there are the endless tit for tat personal arguments going on that have nothing to do with politics. A certain amount of that’s going to be normal and unavoidable, but there are times when it reaches the point of distruption.

            Having said that, if PG weren’t doing his bullshit, other distractions would have less of an impact, so in that sense I agree the comparison is unfari. Unfortunately, PG’s latest beige raid on ts coincides with pu being very active and you needing to have a go at him.

            If you look at most of our exchanges, usually I’ll point out correcting information or provide an alternative view, for balance

            Yes, but that’s what people are doing with PG too. It’s still leads to a major disruption. Unlike with PG, I suspect that if you stopped replying to pu for a week, there would be a marked increase in pu posts that simply don’t get replied to. I say unlike with PG, because PG triggers people almost universally. I suppose that’s part of the attraction for him being here.

            • The Al1en 3.2.2.1.1.1
              4 January 2015 at 10:36 am

              “you needing to have a go at him.”
              “if you stopped replying to pu for a week, there would be a marked increase in pu posts that simply don’t get replied to.”

              That’s one way of looking at it. Pointing out obviously flawed thinking and misleading/incorrect data as fact another.
              But yes, totally my fault. I should just let him spread misinformation unchallenged and hope fellow readers don’t take the collective silence as validation.

              “because PG triggers people almost universally. I suppose that’s part of the attraction for him being here.”

              I suspect most of us are here because we want to be heard, so no added shame attached to pg for wanting a bit of the same, though I’m quite sure he has an agenda and reason to post as he does.
              The answers are still quite simple, ignore him, tell him fuck off at every opportunity, moan about it or pin him down with precise questioning and expose him for what he is. I guarantee he won’t come back if people played the game the right way. At the moment, many just offer themselves up on a platter.

              Like I wrote to CV below, how can we ever hope to fight the nat dirty war machine if some of us can’t even deal with a loser old man on the internet?

              • weka …
                4 January 2015 at 10:45 am

                “I guarantee he won’t come back if people played the game the right way.”

                Oh I agree. Want to take responsibility for herding those particular cats?

                (I didn’t say PG want’s to be heard. I said he engages in a style that triggers most people. Two different things).

                • The Al1en …
                  4 January 2015 at 10:49 am

                  I added the wants to be heard bit just because it’s a common connector with all of us here.

                  “Want to take responsibility for herding those particular cats?”

                  No, I’m not that bothered by it, but I suggest working with each other to find a question he needs to answer and sticking with it despite him going tangential until he answers or retreats.

                  • tracey …
                    4 January 2015 at 11:52 am

                    when pu and pg stick to open mike i fi d less to complain of but once they ake their shows on the road…good idea. the first unanswered question gets repeated by all… cos he disappears when you ask questions and call him on answering only one or none

              • Anne …
                4 January 2015 at 11:53 am

                I suspect most of us are here because we want to be heard,

                That’s not true The Al1en. There are many hundreds of people – if not thousands over time – who come here because of the interesting topics, discussions and a desire to learn more than is dished up to us by the MSM. Some join in the debates, some don’t. The readers of this site are just as important as the commenters because without them the site would cease to function. It happened to Red Alert – although there were one or two other factors involved there as well.

                , ignore him, tell him to fuck off at every opportunity, moan about it or pin him down with precise questioning and expose him for what he is. I guarantee he won’t come back if people played the game the right way.

                I don’t agree with that strategy because the PG’s of this world are impervious to it. They maybe quite clever (and cunning) in the way they go about their destructive business, but they are often not sufficiently intelligent enough to realise they’re talking bullshit – albeit couched in reasonably impressive terms. Yes, they need an audience and by responding to him, commenters here are supplying him with that audience. Take away the audience and he will eventually give up and go elsewhere. It might take a while but it will happen. 😎

                The odd ‘put down’ is okay but these interminable daily sessions with him are becoming very off-putting to readers.

                • The Al1en …
                  4 January 2015 at 12:01 pm

                  “The odd ‘put down’ is okay but these interminable daily sessions with him are becoming very off-putting to readers.”

                  Unpopular or unpalatable as it may be, I personally think that’s more your failing and not particularly that of pg.
                  Sure he’s a pita, but so what? Deal with it or let it go, I say. All this moaning about it is a symptom each of us have the cure for.
                  The more I see it, the more I think there are some with a bit too much invested here.

                  Okay, I’ll amend to – I suspect most of us who post comments are here because we want to be heard,

                • Ecosse_Maidy …
                  5 January 2015 at 7:17 am

                  +100.5 Anne. Yes I concur with all you have said….Why do we have to put up with PG Trips ?
                  Why can’t we have a yes/no referendum on site like back home ?…aye to ban him completely nay to put him in a site cell and feed it and its ego bamboo shoots.
                  I am having Scrolitis too avoiding his cak…Are we developing carpel tunnel? Are Idiots Sueable?
                  Also below is something re Auckland Rail being down for three weeks, I just hope PG hasn’t taken his “De Railing” to new criminal heights

    • wyndham 3.3
      4 January 2015 at 9:46 am

      Lovely turn of phrase Anne – – – – and you are so right !

    • Ffloyd 3.4
      4 January 2015 at 9:58 am

      Thank you Anne. That pg guy is like an itch that can’t be scratched. Bet he talks in a whiny voice.

      • Anne 3.4.1
        4 January 2015 at 10:08 am

        Yeah, I’ve currently got one in the middle of my back – can’t reach it. Driving me nuts. About to take to it with large a wooden spoon. The damage could be grave.

        A good analogy!!

    • One Anonymous Bloke 3.5
      4 January 2015 at 10:26 am

      Um, speaking of huge threads about Petty George…

    • tc 3.6
      4 January 2015 at 10:27 am

      IMO he is still here, after serving out a few bans, as an example to us all that DP can take many forms.

      Disengagement is a DP tactic just as slater and farrars attack/spin sites are, so if it turns you off thats a job well done.

      His resonable tone, selective use of facts and refusal to respond when called out allows him to wibble on and on.

      He is also mining TS and its excellent contributors for material he can use elsewhere and when banned, for not engaging, cries a river on other blogs about those meanies who run TS.

      Live and learn I say, DP just got a 3 year renewal and you can always skip over the PG show.

      • weka 3.6.1
        4 January 2015 at 10:37 am

        I agree re DP. PG is a DP apologist. If he was just a sad old man on the internet I could care less, but we know that journos occassionally reference him, presumable because of his claim to be middle of the road.

        I spent most of yesterday or the day before, whichever it was, dropping in to OM and seeing the flood of PG tips and leaving. It was fascinating watching the standardistas take PG on to such an extent. I didn’t read the comments, but I was mindful of something Lynn said recently about one of the purposes of ts was to influence. I take that to mean both people who read here (a much bigger number than comment), and the political sphere.

        I wonder if people calling his bullshit point by point is part of that. That there is a practical demonstration of the short comings of the muddle NZ myth.

        On the other hand, I can’t see much point being here when it’s all about PG and I’m guessing for everyone person like Anne there will be many others who just stay away without saying anything.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 3.6.1.1
          4 January 2015 at 10:43 am

          I wonder if Lprent could invent/install a way to “collapse” a thread.

          • The Al1en 3.6.1.1.1
            4 January 2015 at 10:45 am

            Or put in an ignore/mute user option like on other forums I’ve visited.

            • weka 3.6.1.1.1.1
              4 January 2015 at 10:54 am

              That doesn’t stop disruption of the thread though. OM yesterday has 65/153 comments by or to or about PG. That’s 42%, which is pretty high even by PG standards. He also troled the green future thread at the same time, so between the two main active threads he was all over them like a rash. If I or Anne or whoever comes along and mutes him, all that happens is we get excluded from the conversations (this applies to pu threads too).

              In other words, the scrolling is annoying (and yes could be solved by a collapsable thread), but it’s just as bad that so much of the time and energy of the community here is taken up with PG tips.

              • The Al1en …
                4 January 2015 at 11:04 am

                My understanding of the mute/ignore user option is that it only hides that users posts and comments. If you want to read the debate that follows one from pg, isn’t that the opposite of wanting him silenced?

                The community doesn’t have to engage pg at all, or me, or ure, or anyone else. They can actively choose not to contribute, enable or join in the fun and games. It’s a personal decision to engage.

                • weka …
                  4 January 2015 at 11:09 am

                  Except that it’s not just about individuals. It’s about the collective as well. That’s what community is.

                  “My understanding of the mute/ignore user option is that it only hides that users posts and comments. If you want to read the debate that follows one from pg, isn’t that the opposite of wanting him silenced?”

                  Not really understanding that, mostly the second sentence. What do you mean?

                  • The Al1en …
                    4 January 2015 at 11:18 am

                    “If I or Anne or whoever comes along and mutes him, all that happens is we get excluded from the conversations ”

                    Either you want to read and join the conversation pg is in or you don’t. If you don’t, an ignore user option would blank out all his comments.

                    • weka …
                      4 January 2015 at 11:30 am

                      Yes, and if I don’t then I can sit here and twiddle my thumbs instead.

                    • The Al1en …
                      4 January 2015 at 11:35 am

                      Is that because you think the attention he’s getting is starving the place of oxygen and limiting debate?

                      Surely ts posters are a bit more multi dimensional that that.

                    • weka …
                      4 January 2015 at 12:24 pm

                      I’m in two minds about it. In the past I think people responding to PG have created disruptions that serve little purpose. Yesterday might be different.

                      It’s not really about being multi-dimensional or not. It’s normal for humans to try and manage something that is disrupting the equilibrium of their tribe, so many of us at one point or another engage with PG in some way. Others choose to not engage at all, which I think is good. But when you have 42% of OM being taken up by the appearance of the Beige Hole, then yeah, it is like all the oxygen is being sucked out of the place.

                      I checked in multiple times yesterday and then left because there was very little conversation going on other than the PG one.

                      Lynn seems to take the view that as long as someone is learning then they get to stay. Problem is, with an arch trole like PG, he learns enough to avoid a ban but still gets to practicing his troling. His basic behaviour (negative attention seeking, not giving a shit about the community he spends time in, all his little trole tricks like refusing to back up fact statements then when called on it making out the other person isn’t fact checking) doesn’t change, and all those things wear away at a community.

                      In other words, IMO he is doing damage. I don’t know if this is intentional originally, but there is no way in hell he is not aware of it now and yet he keeps on doing it. That’s deliberate, and that’s what makes him a trole irrespective of his politics.

                      I’ve seen this on other communities (online and offline), and how much time and energy gets sucked into it, and how it affects culture. Today is yet another example. In the meantime, Rome burns.

                    • The Al1en …
                      4 January 2015 at 12:32 pm

                      “Today is yet another example. ”

                      And he hasn’t even posted anything.

                      Not dismissing your long reply, but if I casually came on to this site and read the exchanges about wanting him banned, and ter olling and smiley face warfare, I’d think what a bunch of losers. Which cold be his plan all along.

                      As I’ve written before, it’s an attention thing with an agenda. Probably at the moment writing down all the comments to show how the left are as disgusting and insulting as slater on the right. He’s even alluded to it already.
                      I guess some will only be happy when he has a ban imposed, but to me, that sort of says more about their failings than pete’s.

                      Not going round and round, cause obviously some will see the long exchange and get put out by it 😉 We all have our ‘support groups’
                      So I guess we shall just have to wait and see what happens next time he posts and suffer the consequences.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      4 January 2015 at 2:10 pm

                      The Al1en: yeah, I also have a feeling that he has been attempting to demonstrate his ‘prowess’ and ‘relevance’ at social media to politically inclined third parties, and using The Standard as a case study for doing so.

                    • Sacha …
                      4 January 2015 at 4:31 pm

                      “In other words, IMO he is doing damage. I don’t know if this is intentional originally, but there is no way in hell he is not aware of it now and yet he keeps on doing it. That’s deliberate, and that’s what makes him a trole irrespective of his politics. I’ve seen this on other communities (online and offline), and how much time and energy gets sucked into it, and how it affects culture. ”

                      Totally agree. It is not harmless, and nor is it accidental. When somebody repeatedly despoils a conversation place despite previous warnings, any decent community will eject them. He’s poisoning the well.

              • tracey …
                4 January 2015 at 12:00 pm

                perhaps the pu and pg factor is higher because there are fewer posts at this time of the year?

          • Ed 3.6.1.1.2
            4 January 2015 at 1:10 pm

            Who or what is DP?

            • One Anonymous Bloke 3.6.1.1.2.1
              4 January 2015 at 1:16 pm

              Dirty Politics, with specific reference to the behaviour exposed by Nicky Hager.

        • vto 3.6.1.2
          4 January 2015 at 10:44 am

          TS allows myths to be combated point by point as you suggest was done with PG yesterday. Each and every aspect of generally right wing thought is pulled apart for all to see in a very comprehensive way. As yesterday.

          The fact that people like PG and gosman run away like cowards when they get pinged is not much of a problem as it exposes the failings of their ideology.

          The issue is how to get those myths burst in wider media setting for more to see.

          • marty mars 3.6.1.2.1
            4 January 2015 at 10:58 am

            I totally agree vto – very good comment especially this – “Each and every aspect of generally right wing thought is pulled apart for all to see in a very comprehensive way.” – imo this has to be done, almost every time – it is practice and practical in our efforts to combat the continual spin provided by the right – which must be burst into the msm as you say. We cannot combat the spin without knowing what their spin is (and that means the intricate sub-spins that flow off their main initial spin) – that to me is the ‘value’ of pg’s – they help us even as they try to hinder us, they strengthen us even as they try to weaken us, they are our play things and toys even as they think they control the situation.

            • weka 3.6.1.2.1.1
              4 January 2015 at 11:02 am

              I would agree with that about pretty much every right winger that comments here. But my problem isn’t with PG’s politics, it’s the fact that he’s an outright trole. There may be some value in pulling apart PG’s myths, but at what cost to the community?

              • marty mars …
                4 January 2015 at 11:28 am

                imo the only way he will go will be similar to the last times he went – he cracks under the immeasurable hypocrisy and speed wobbles from excessive spin. And the community of The Standard contributes to that by refusing to accept his ‘stuff’ – and for a brief flash of time the community is united, and it is good.

                • weka …
                  4 January 2015 at 11:32 am

                  hmmm, I thought the last time he got a ban. Now he has new skills and is better at being here without incurring the modersators’ wrath.

                  “and for a brief flash of time the community is united, and it is good.”

                  I did think the way the community engaged yesterday was interesting. Hadn’t seen that before.

                  • marty mars …
                    4 January 2015 at 11:51 am

                    no easy answers for sure, but I do think the bots and pg’s add flavour to the community and the community is what it is and I like it – scrolling and all.

                    • weka …
                      4 January 2015 at 12:26 pm

                      Does it bother you that so many other people feel negatively affected by it?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      4 January 2015 at 1:03 pm

                      It’s because so many people feel negatively affected by it that it attracts such strong reactions.

                      Generally speaking I’m with Marty – the Right gets votes using the argument ad nauseam – confusing familiarity and truth in the minds of the electorate.

                      That (repetition) works for truth too: and it has the advantage of [citations].

                    • marty mars …
                      4 January 2015 at 2:04 pm

                      That was a great question – no it doesn’t bother me because people chose to come or go for all sorts of reasons – I really believe the ‘community’ is what it is and doesn’t need fixing or adjustment. I suppose I have found acceptance – I accept it is what it is even though I too get very frustrated sometimes, upset even.

              • greywarshark …
                4 January 2015 at 11:41 am

                @ Weka
                ‘there may be some value in pulling apart PGs myths’….
                But he just reforms and comes on again like the liquid Terminator!

                He makes me think also of a myth that is more ancient and instructional than he is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus
                (See picture on urn, very alike PG!)
                In Greek mythology Sisyphus was a king of Ephyra (now known as Corinth). He was punished for chronic deceitfulness by being compelled to roll an immense boulder up a hill, only to watch it roll back down, and to repeat this action forever..

                • weka …
                  4 January 2015 at 11:50 am

                  The value in pulling apart the myths isn’t to have an effect on PG’s behaviour, it’s to demonstrate the holes in his muddle NZ arguments.

                  But yeah, arguing with PG is like that definition of crazy (doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result).

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    4 January 2015 at 1:48 pm

                    Doing the same thing over and over again is also the definition of training, and that leads to very different results indeed.

                    • weka …
                      4 January 2015 at 1:54 pm

                      You think PG is being trained? Actually, you might be right, he’s being trained to be a better trole.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      4 January 2015 at 2:18 pm

                      I did think the way the community engaged yesterday was interesting. Hadn’t seen that before.

                      “That’s the beauty of training. When someone fucks with you, you get to kick his ass.”

                      …but really I was just observing the flaw in the old aphorism about repetition and crazy.

                    • Adele …
                      4 January 2015 at 7:18 pm

                      Someone complains about Peter George. Three thousand comments later and he is still the topic of conversation.

                      PG is not even in the room and yet he can cause random people to perform random acts of dullness in this space.

                      Surely the irony is not lost.

                      Reading about PG is actually MORE likely to induce a coma than reading from the man himself.

                    • weka …
                      4 January 2015 at 7:24 pm

                      Glad you could join us Adele.

                      “That’s the beauty of training. When someone fucks with you, you get to kick his ass.”

                      …but really I was just observing the flaw in the old aphorism about repetition and crazy.”

                      Sorry mate, too obscure for me.

                    • Sacha …
                      4 January 2015 at 7:32 pm

                      See 14 below. None of this is new.
                      And the solution has not changed either..

            • vto 3.6.1.2.1.2
              4 January 2015 at 11:19 am

              About a year ago, via TS, Jane Kelsey and Wayne Mapp agreed to debate the intricacies of the TPPA. It was however conducted in verbal staged forum, which allowed the usual trappings of such debate style to reign, such as spin, deception and the like, and thereby hide the intricacies that were intended to be exposed.

              That debate should have been conducted by blog (a 2-person only blog which can be watched but not participated in by others). This way those details, which are impossible to debate in the usual fashion, can be dealt with comprehensively and seen by the world…

              My brainwaves have thought this for while – that politicians need to be brought into long-frame debates on policy detail and that the best way of doing this is by way of two-person only blog, which the rest of the world can see.

              (would love to see Key do this, such is his extreme shallowness…)

              • Draco T Bastard …
                4 January 2015 at 11:56 am

                In such a format Key would have the full capability of Crosby Textor making up his lines. Nothing that would come from him would be true but it would be easily fact checked before the next question was asked which is where such a format would reign supreme.

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  4 January 2015 at 1:39 pm

                  Which is why competent journalists (and lawyers for that matter) only ever ask questions they know the answers to.

                  How many Tranzrail shares was it again Prime Minister?

                  Obviously there’s a lot more to it than that, given what we know about political Teflon.

                  In some respects, Hansard is the prototype, and Parliament is the venue, the ultimate in crowd-sourced fact checking.

                  Where were we again?

              • greywarshark …
                4 January 2015 at 12:30 pm

                @ vto
                That sounds really good. All of us have different understandings of a matter and sometimes we are in A Donald Rumsfeld confusion about things.

                So better to let two debate, perhaps with provision for blocks of up to 5 questions limited to say 30 words each, and from different people. That would allow for holes in understanding to be filled in.

              • Tracey …
                4 January 2015 at 4:53 pm

                what makes you think it would be key doing the blog answers. many thought slater wrote all posts he signs off.

            • greywarshark 3.6.1.2.1.3
              4 January 2015 at 11:45 am

              @ marty mars 10.58 am
              Trouble with RW trials they do the playing and leave the toys around for us to pick up and we spend our time doing that so never get to control the situation or do little else that would be more worthy.

          • tc 3.6.1.2.2
            4 January 2015 at 11:04 am

            +1 its about influencing via exposing the flaws in their ideology which the MSM will never do as they serve the top end not the general public.

    • The lost sheep 3.7
      4 January 2015 at 10:46 am

      If you ban PG, can you please also ban the posters who can’t resist the same baited hook no matter how obvious it is or how often it is floated in front of them?

      Honestly, any fish with as little discretion would never get to breed.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 3.7.1
        4 January 2015 at 10:51 am

        People find it very difficult to distinguish between truth and familiarity: repeating the same lies ad nauseam is how the National Party gets votes.

        Are we supposed to just roll over?

        • The lost sheep 3.7.1.1
          4 January 2015 at 12:21 pm

          You play their game then.
          That’s how they get votes.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 3.7.1.1.1
            4 January 2015 at 12:36 pm

            When familiar lies are answered by equally familiar truths, what happens?

            • The lost sheep 3.7.1.1.1.1
              4 January 2015 at 1:55 pm

              Not sure what you mean by that exactly sorry.

              But it does sound a bit like you believe that ‘lies’ and ‘truth’ are self evident and all you have to do is state them for that to be accepted.
              The increased support for National after the ‘Dirty Politics’ ‘truths’ should have shown you once and for all that is not the case.

              My point is that you will not defeat tr**ls by endlessly repeating the same ‘truths’ to the same ‘lies’, Posters hear who are sick of tr**ls just need to stop playing their game, and get the discussion back to your own LW agenda.

              Just as the Left as a whole will not defeat National by continuing a primary strategy of reacting to their game, and letting them be seen to be setting the agenda.

              The Left as a whole needs to start setting their own terms, and presenting a game of such strength and conviction that the Nat’s are forced into responding in a defensive manner themselves.

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                4 January 2015 at 2:11 pm

                self-evident…state them

                No. Repetition creates familiarity, and familiarity becomes accepted as truth. Wenn du lügst, dann lüge gründlich, und vor allem bleibe bei dem, was du gelogen hast! and so-on.

                So it simply isn’t enough to state the facts in answer to lies: they have to be stated and re-stated, because of the aforementioned familiarity problem.

                When the Left makes policy, or observations about injustice, the Right reacts with well-worn songs from the playbook. This is the struggle to set the agenda you are looking for.

                • The lost sheep …
                  4 January 2015 at 2:22 pm

                  My belief is that if your current strategy is failing, you need to change it.
                  Repeating a failed strategy just leads to another failure.

                  For all the repeated counters of ‘truth’ to the RW tr*ll ‘lies’ here, how many times have you ever seen a Tr**ll concede a point or accept one of your ‘truths’?

                  And for all the countering of National ‘lies’ with LW ‘truths’ over the last few years, how many RW voters have shifted to the Left?

                  The answer to both questions is ‘bugger all’, and the Left is further from Govt. than ever.
                  So lets keep repeating the same strategy then!

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    4 January 2015 at 2:42 pm

                    Manifestly, the battle is for the swing vote, not the committed partisans, and yet even the committed partisans move in the long term, or Kiwibank would be sold and WFF scrapped, and there wouldn’t even be lip service to inequality or AGW.

                    If repeating a failed strategy leads to another failure, can you explain why copying Helen Clark’s winning strategy didn’t work in 2008?

                    Perhaps electoral sentiment is a bit more complex than that.

                    • The lost sheep …
                      4 January 2015 at 3:11 pm

                      2008 was a case of Labour not picking up on the need to change their strategy in order to meet a shift in that ‘complex electoral sentiment’.

                      However ‘Electoral sentiment’ among swing voters is very stable at this point, if last years election is any indication.
                      Time will prove me right or wrong, but I am utterly convinced that unless the Left produces a new and compelling strategy to attract the swing voter away from the comfort zone, there is not the slightest chance of a LW Govt. at the next election.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      4 January 2015 at 3:14 pm

                      So, since you’re clearly not going to offer any support unless you think we’re already winning, in what sense are you a Lefty?

                  • greywarshark …
                    5 January 2015 at 2:41 pm

                    @ the lost sheep 4/1 2.22 pm
                    You aren’t lost. You appear to have found the path, the truth, the direction and the will to achieve. You have thought through that holey approach of abandoning our real work of envisaging the future and how to get there, and instead, turning back all the time to assist the doubters and those overburdened with crud from the past. A sure way of losing everything.

                    If TS people don’t get a mission that they can all carry round in their heads, and additionally is printed in the Abouts for reference. there is going to be much energy and time wasted. People who know what needs to be done and need to talk over the methods, and tools to get there will give up. When they bypass the site it will sink into the morass of its fanciful notions and the idiotic parts of its ideals that can’t withstand the cold light of reason.

              • Anne …
                4 January 2015 at 2:18 pm

                The Left as a whole needs to start setting their own terms, and presenting a game of such strength and conviction that the Nat’s are forced into responding in a defensive manner themselves.

                Thank-you lost sheep. No truer words spoken. I think Andrew Little understands this and he already has Key and co. on the defensive. Hence the jibes and sneers about Little’s union background for example, which I suspect will become nastier and more vociferous as Little increases his command of the political framing.

                • The lost sheep …
                  4 January 2015 at 2:48 pm

                  Agree Andrew is showing positive signs of looking honestly at the state of the Left, and making a firm statement of intent to frame a new dialogue of his own.
                  As a Leftie gone sour on the Left, I’m watching hopefully.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    4 January 2015 at 3:00 pm

                    In what sense are you a Leftie? The sort that votes for National?

                    • The lost sheep …
                      4 January 2015 at 3:42 pm

                      The sort whose ancestors were all workers and left England to escape class privilege.
                      Whose Dad grew up in a tent during the depression and was a life long Socialist.
                      Who read Marx at 16 and called myself a communist for a while, before settling on ‘Democratic Socialist’.
                      Who worked in minimum wage laboring jobs for 20 years, acting as a union delegate in many of them.
                      Started a business and always lived by my Dad’s instruction to never forget your employees are your greatest asset.
                      Have been involved over many years in many organisations promoting environmental and social initiatives.
                      Voted exclusively Labour / Green for 35 years.

                      Over the last few years I got absolutely frustrated with the disunity, lack of vision, and negativity of the Political Left in NZ, to the extent that last year that for the first time in my life I could not convince myself I wanted NZ in the hands of the current Left Wing block, and so I voted against them by way of protest.

                      What does that make me?
                      Part of that ‘complex electoral sentiment’ I reckon.
                      But you’ll still label me a RW Tr**ll I guess!

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      4 January 2015 at 3:47 pm

                      Protesting disunity by slamming the door on your way out.

                      Slow clap.

                    • Weepus beard …
                      4 January 2015 at 4:08 pm

                      Indeed. The lost sheep appears to have thrown out several generations’ worth, and 35 years of his own social convictions because of…

                      …David Cunliffe.

                      Is that you, Trevor Mallard?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      4 January 2015 at 4:10 pm

                      😆

                    • Weepus beard …
                      4 January 2015 at 4:20 pm

                      Wouldn’t surprise me if Trevor Mallard split his vote last election. I can see him party voting National in the corrugated cardboard darkness of the polling booth.

                    • The lost sheep …
                      4 January 2015 at 4:39 pm

                      Sigh.
                      Remind me again why only about 30 people bother to comment regularly on this site…..

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      4 January 2015 at 4:51 pm

                      It’s because when you slammed the door it stuck shut? Or is it that your boring self-serving narrative doesn’t cut the mustard, instead making you look like a fair-weather friend who was happy to back a winning team and ran away when the going got tough.

                      So, why don’t you drop the pretend sincerity and get to the point. I’m not here to represent “The Left” any more than you can, and as for disunity, what could be more fickle than a Tory voter? Who wants unity with that?

                    • Weepus beard …
                      4 January 2015 at 4:58 pm

                      Weeeeell, my own opinion is that The Standard, while full of dedicated and socially conscious people, is somewhat heavy. There is no marketing (not that it really needs it). It’s sometimes a little bit too Green also, and then there’s Phil Ure vs Al1en which is enough to turn anyone off. Someone put them both on a warning, please!

                      After that, and this is where you come in, The lost sheep, there are a fair few concern trolls who are active in between bans.

                      That is not to say LP and MS and the rest of the authors don’t do a fantastic and unpaid job and I’d be lost without this forum, but I can’t help but think the unattractiveness of the union movement and the stolidness of The Standard are somehow one and the same.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      4 January 2015 at 5:05 pm

                      Sheep approves of Little, so may not agree with your remark about the unions.

                      Oh noes! The disunity!

                    • greywarshark …
                      5 January 2015 at 2:45 pm

                      OAB Your sharp wit will cut yourself, perhaps your throat. Lost sheep has ideas. And has listed them. You generally go in for one-liners. What are you like when you have joined-up ideas? Will they stand scrutiny.?

                      And Weepu’s Beard. What about discussing and examining what’s coming forward, not sniping.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      6 January 2015 at 7:34 am

                      🙄

                      Perhaps you might find what you’re looking for by scrolling up.

                    • The lost sheep …
                      6 January 2015 at 8:11 am

                      I was wondering if he was ever actually constructive Greywarshark.

                      This blog has too many like him IMO, and it seems most posts here quickly degenerate into petty personality focused sniping that has bugger all to do with the topic in hand.
                      A lot of it in fact is downright ugly, and without any purpose at all other than the pleasure some posters obviously take in abusive argument.

                      I admire those like yourself who are willing to persist in an attempt to debate serious points, but I think the scope and reach of this blog is being seriously compromised by the amount of destructive silly shit that occurs.

                      I bet there are many more like me that simply can’t be bothered with the crap, and so do not contribute.
                      When all those endless personal battles are raging I wonder if it’s even worth continuing to read TS, let alone post anything.

                      It’s ironic. The overall ethos of this blog is one of free and open debate, but if anyone dares venture an opinion even slightly outside of some little cliches idea of ‘orthodoxy’, it is quickly suppressed by the bullying tactics of the ‘righteous’…..

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      6 January 2015 at 8:32 am

                      Concern tr*ll is concerned.

                      Anyone can scroll up the page and see the discussion and judge for themselves whether someone who protests disunity by storming out can talk about “constructive” without rank hypocrisy.

                      And seriously – bullying? It’s bullying to speculate that you’re the sort of “Lefty” that votes National, and have you confirm it?

                      Poor baby.

                    • The lost sheep …
                      6 January 2015 at 8:37 am

                      Think you just illustrated my point OAB.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      6 January 2015 at 8:45 am

                      And I’ve just had a quick look through your past comments, dripping as they are with false frames and negativity.

                      The nasty bully challenged your narrative? Sob sob.

                    • The lost sheep …
                      6 January 2015 at 8:53 am

                      Mate, I am going to get up from this chair and get out among the good citizens of Aotearoa with confidence that today I am going to find any number of constructive, open minded and humorous people to exchange ideas with in an atmosphere of good faith and mutual respect.

                      That being the case, why on earth would I waste time sitting here engaging with someone as rude, narrow minded and unpleasant as you?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      6 January 2015 at 8:58 am

                      Why indeed: you can’t argue your way out of a paper bag and you don’t like having your opinions questioned, let alone exposed as complete drivel.

                      Run along.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      6 January 2015 at 1:30 pm

                      In conclusion: started a business and always lived by my Dad’s instruction to never forget your employees are your greatest asset, then elected a government that destroyed collective bargaining.

                      What a peach.

    • Stephanie Rodgers 3.8
      4 January 2015 at 12:14 pm

      I’ve tried a few different approaches to highlighting PG’s trolling, but the irony is there’s plenty of people who attack you as “childish” or “just as bad as he is” for doing it. So these days I’m giving him 1 reply to debunk his latest spin, then 🙄 after that.

      For those who say that he’s a useful contribution because he allows us to see/debunk the spin, this approach works because your average casual visitor is probably going to stop reading two or three tiers into a conversation.

      I agree PG is disruptive but at this time of year it’s probably more obvious because there aren’t as many original posts going up, and Open Mike is where he (and other derailers) dominate the conversation.

      I’ve had success in other forums with chasing him away by shutting down his trolling at the earliest opportunity and when I post again at The Standard will take the same approach on my own posts.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 3.8.1
        4 January 2015 at 12:54 pm

        As an author you have more power than the rest of us. I like Lprent’s strategy of re-posing unanswered questions and giving the tr*ll the option of a citation, a retraction, or a ban.

      • Chooky 3.8.2
        4 January 2015 at 2:26 pm

        @ Steph…re-“these days I’m giving him 1 reply to debunk his latest spin, then 🙄 after that”

        …sounds good to me…everyone should copy that advice …..and ignoring is better than banning imo if he isn’t offensive….personally i don’t read what he says or what others say to him…saves a lot of time

        • Stephanie Rodgers 3.8.2.1
          4 January 2015 at 3:05 pm

          Well, good for you, Chooky, but as other people are saying, it’s very offputting to have to scroll through 1/3 to 1/2 of the Open Mike every day to avoid PG.

          “Just ignore the troll” is actually very bad advice. Just like school bullies, they don’t go away of their own accord.

          • Murray Rawshark 3.8.2.1.1
            4 January 2015 at 10:11 pm

            The Alien stalking Philip Ure and what that degenerates to is equally as offputting to me as anything PG does.

            • Chooky 3.8.2.1.1.2
              4 January 2015 at 10:56 pm

              have to agree…it seems pointless…except once the Alien defended me against a rabid pu attack and I was grateful ….since then however the Alien and I have crossed swords on the issue of NZers going to fight ISIS…so at the moment I am not impressed or trustful of the Alien either …and he purports to be a feminist but some of his language was very sexist ( Batweka took it apart and did an analysis very efficiently)…..sooo!

              ….maybe it is the fighting season?…..some people here are worse than family…maybe they dont have families to fight with so they come here to pick a fight

    • DH 3.9
      4 January 2015 at 3:33 pm

      I think PG is only a symptom, he doesn’t actually make that many posts it’s all the replies that fill up the threads. He’s very easy to ignore and I wonder if his posts are just catalysts for the garrulous who don’t need much of an excuse to start jabbering.

      A simple way to improve the readability of this site is to use a bit of psychology. Put a weekly posting limit on every person, say a maximum of 50x posts each. Those who talk the most will need to start rationing their posts else they’ll waste their words on drivel & miss the interesting conversations.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 3.9.1
        4 January 2015 at 3:55 pm

        Unless based on word count, that system will discriminate against brevity.

      • Stephanie Rodgers 3.9.2
        4 January 2015 at 5:58 pm

        This is a great example of a solution which fixes nothing, penalising prolific commenters who actually contribute to the discussion while the dedicated trolls will create multiple handles to get around the limitation.

      • greywarshark 3.9.3
        5 January 2015 at 3:08 pm

        @ DH
        It’s not that easy to ignore the PG stuff at all. It’s there taking up the page. I want to read the thoughts of people with active minds about how we can deal with the problems we have. And active minds must stick to the premise of the site, and be interested in learning more.

        Not just discounting most things that are said, adopting patronising agreeable attitudes to individuals who make one statement that a comment can be hung on, or bringing up too many irrelevancies. (Here I admit that I sometimes do, with no intention of derailing, but hopefully exploring a cul de sac in the maze, then returning.)

        And allowing someone 50 posts a week wouldn’t help. Even 5 posts a day is enough to derail a thread if troles get together. And calling people who respond to PG ‘garrulous’ is unfair. Most are honestly, but in my mind foolishly, trying to address the points they think he is bringing up. Or, like evangelists, speaking the sacred-left message to the unbelievers who they want to draw into the fold. Waste of time with PG and others like The Allen and pu, because it is all smoke and mirrors, and PG whines on to more exposed skin like a mosquito, and the others have constructed a superior entitlement that encases them against the slings and arrows of others’ opinions.

        is TS going to be, without LPrent to stiffen its resolve, just a mud wallow for any lax and addled thinker who wants to come and dominate the discourse? And the response be, oh well it will be all right, it’s not so bad, it’s a community, oh we must be kind, it’s a place for free speech. Blah blah. If so there won’t be any other course than to leave all those soft in the head and look elsewhere to think and discuss the hard questions.

  4. Ed 4
    4 January 2015 at 9:18 am

    On the right hand side of this page, near the bottom, are a range of videos that are worth watching for their relevance to what is happening now. I have just watched the last clip[ from”In a Land of Plenty” –
    http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/in-a-land-of-plenty-2002
    Perhaps it is time for a modern equivalent – the script would be nearly the same.

    • John Shears 4.1
      4 January 2015 at 9:54 am

      Thanks Ed will explore this source further ,have just watched some of ‘Land of Plenty’

  5. One Anonymous Bloke 5
    4 January 2015 at 10:07 am

    Andrea Vance is at it again. Criticising (in the best sense of the word, this is a critical analysis) Dirty John’s destruction of evidence, she saves the best for last.

    There are already clear guidelines in legislation covering official information to distinguish what should be considered private and public … national leaders can shield their personal lives without resorting to destroying a priceless historic record.

    Surely there’s some better term for Slater than “hit-job blogger” though. What’s wrong with “National Party comms manager”, for example? 😈

    • weka 5.1
      4 January 2015 at 10:28 am

      “textses”

      Nasty hobbitses.

      If MPs aren’t to delete their txts, what are they supposed to do with them? Pretty sure that if you never delete a txt eventually your phone will stop working.

        • weka 5.1.1.1
          4 January 2015 at 12:29 pm

          Yes, but is it an expectation at parliament that everyone does that? Or is this a new thing people are trying to figure out? Just trying to figure out if Key is being slippery, or if he’s just doing what everyone is doing. Haven’t seen any comment on this yet.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 5.1.1.1.1
            4 January 2015 at 12:41 pm

            There’s no way Key can maintain his friendship with Cameron Slater and the popular fiction, so if everyone else does it too I’m sure that’s very convenient for him.

          • Stephanie Rodgers 5.1.1.1.2
            4 January 2015 at 12:43 pm

            It could be the case that this is a grey area which no one (presumably Archives NZ has responsibility?) has really clarified – I remember the SSC came out with advice on whether people can submit OIA requests via Twitter and it was something a lot of people hadn’t really thought about.

            But on the other hand, it completely baffles me that any senior politician, who’s very used to having every letter or email or meeting note subject to the OIA, would not think to ask whether their texts were similarly covered, and wouldn’t err on the side of caution.

            Even ignoring the OIA (which I think some senior ministers would if they could) it seems really, really stupid to wholesale delete every text message he’s sent from the Prime Ministerial cellphone. What happens when somebody fucks something up and says “well the PM told me to”? Which is pretty much exactly what’s happened here.

            John Key is frankly far too clever to play this dumb.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 5.1.1.1.2.1
              4 January 2015 at 12:51 pm

              … it completely baffles me that any senior politician, who’s very used to having every letter or email or meeting note subject to the OIA, would not think to ask whether their texts were similarly covered, and wouldn’t err on the side of caution.

              Yeah, I think the Prime Minister’s natural response would be to treat it as a convenient loophole and keep very very quiet about it for as long as possible.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 5.1.1.1.2.2
              4 January 2015 at 1:18 pm

              The comments below Vance’s piece make for interesting reading – especially the number of ‘likes’. The right wing commenters are getting quite agitated 🙂

          • Tracey 5.1.1.1.3
            4 January 2015 at 5:10 pm

            it isyou dont burn the files when the cabinet is full. he is deleting stuff that isnt painting him in a good light otherwise you pass your phone to IT and say

            “it is filling up. can you carve them off into archives for me?”

            unless you want them gone, like you would if they recorded tip offs about currency movement impacting events in your previous career to avoid SEC

  6. travellerev 6
    4 January 2015 at 10:11 am

    Here is a nice list of 25 hallmarks of shill behavior.

    It would be naive to think National or other players would not try to have a couple of shills active here to disrupt the course of some threads.

    • phillip ure 6.1
      4 January 2015 at 10:30 am

      p.g. uses number six..

      ..and allen uses number seven..

      “..6. Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of your opponent or the opponent position and then scamper off before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore any answer. This works extremely well in Internet and letters-to-the-editor environments where a steady stream of new identities can be called upon without having to explain criticism reasoning — simply make an accusation or other attack, never discussing issues, and never answering any subsequent response, for that would dignify the opponent’s viewpoint.

      7. Question motives. Twist or amplify any fact which could so taken to imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden personal agenda or other bias. This avoids discussing issues and forces the accuser on the defensive…”

      • The Al1en 6.1.1
        4 January 2015 at 10:43 am

        “This avoids discussing issues”

        “fuck off..!..i wd rather u didn’t fucken exist in this forum…..let alone fucken ‘debate’ with u….u r too fucken thick to debate with….u r like p.g….u r so thick/ignorant..i don’t know where to begin….so..best to ignore..(except to insult at will..)”

        😆

        • tricledrown 6.1.1.1
          4 January 2015 at 10:47 am

          Alien steady on old chap someone hit a raw nerve!

        • tricledrown 6.1.1.3
          4 January 2015 at 10:59 am

          Trav looks like Crosby (Cosby)Textor(trickstors) used all 25 to protect John Key on Dirty Politics !

        • David 6.1.1.4
          4 January 2015 at 11:05 am

          Sometimes you act with intelligence and decorum, then there are these moments. Both of you have a limited grasp on grammar, spelling and common decency towards each other, so your politics are different, no need to get so riled up. That comment would be better off posted in the sewer or on dirtyblog.

          • weka 6.1.1.4.1
            4 January 2015 at 11:10 am

            +1

          • The Al1en 6.1.1.4.2
            4 January 2015 at 11:13 am

            Very limited grasp on grammar and spelling, I’d say, though I am working through it. Never made it a secret or an excuse for it, but thanks for noticing 🙂

            “That comment would be better off posted in the sewer or on dirtyblog.”

            And yet that’s what was posted to me by phil on TS.
            http://thestandard.org.nz/the-future-will-be-green-or-not-at-all/#comment-946351

            • David 6.1.1.4.2.1
              4 January 2015 at 11:27 am

              And now you want me to bite? Ain’t happening buddy, maybe you should invite Phil around to skin up? Sounds like you’re a bit high strung…

              • The Al1en …
                4 January 2015 at 11:30 am

                I don’t want you to bite. I’m agreeing with you, about the grammar and phil’s rant.

                The bit about highly strung – Is that you trying to get me to bite? 😆
                Don’t bother, it’s rhetorical and I’m not really interested.
                Enjoy your day.

                • David …
                  4 January 2015 at 11:32 am

                  Hahaha you too buddy. I think we can agree that PG tips is far worse than Phil, surely?

                  • The Al1en …
                    4 January 2015 at 11:40 am

                    No I think they are different sides to the same ter-rolling beast.

                    pg has the smarts to deliberately exploit the common board consensus to his own ends, whereas pu is like the cornered snarling teeth, claws and FUNDUS. 😆

            • tricledrown 6.1.1.4.2.2
              4 January 2015 at 11:39 am

              Alien no winding Phil up continuously no never.
              Sulking I thought would be above your level of intelligence.
              Ol times be fogotten.
              Move on come up with someting worth talking about.

              • The Al1en …
                4 January 2015 at 11:47 am

                Seriously now, you’re posting like a 13 year old with a crush on the substitute teacher.

                Know I’m not interested in your opinion of me. I set myself higher up the evolutionary ladder than a ‘join in’ sycophant, so why would I be? Why would I take you seriously at all? There’s nothing in it for me.

                I can just dismiss you at will, like that. Or like this. 🙂

                • phillip ure …
                  4 January 2015 at 1:07 pm

                  p.g. and alan..sitting in a tree..

                  ..along came a tr*ll..

                  ..and that made three…

                  • The Al1en …
                    4 January 2015 at 1:12 pm

                    “p.g. and alan..sitting in a tree….along came a tr*ll….and that made three…”

                    It’s a clear step up from your usual rage fuelled rubbish. Who said I was a negative influence?

                    • phillip ure …
                      4 January 2015 at 1:33 pm

                      you just trail along behind me doing number seven on that list..

                      (as you just did above..number seven has yr modus-operandi nailed/filled and painted..)

                      ..and you never bring anything to the table..

                      ..that’s positive..?

                      ..(plus you fucken whine..all the time..)

                      ..you do the math…

                    • The Al1en …
                      4 January 2015 at 1:38 pm

                      🙄

                      “If you look at most of our exchanges, usually I’ll point out correcting information or provide an alternative view, for balance, before being roundly abused, insulted and demeaned – Just like others on here get when they dare disagree with philip ure or prove him factually incorrect.”

                      I’ve been on forums and encountered a few like you before.
                      I’m not claiming innocence for winding you up, I do enjoy putting you and your opinions to the sword, just like some do with pg, and I’ve never denied it.

                      What you can’t deny is “Just like others on here get when they dare disagree with philip ure” as it’s what you have a record of doing. I’m always happy to be proved wrong as that’s how we learn and stop appearing frosty pig ignorant. Go back over some of your recent foul mouthed fall outs with people and honestly have a look at your actions and see if they are in any way considered ‘fair responses’. Bet you won’t.

                      Now I’m off out to work for a couple of hours in a bit, but rest assured, if I see a post from you containing bollocks and untruths I will respond, whether you think it a no7 or not.
                      The standard is a place for robust debate.

                    • Tracey …
                      4 January 2015 at 5:12 pm

                      transference phil?

                    • phillip ure …
                      4 January 2015 at 6:37 pm

                      yeah..right..i follow alan around..u got it in one..

                      ..y’know..!..going on what u say here..it still never fails to blow my mind that you trained as a lawyer..

                      ..(you aren’t practising any more..i hope..!..)

        • phillip ure 6.1.1.5
          4 January 2015 at 6:57 pm

          factcheck on that quote;;

          first line..’f.o’..check..!

          ..second line…’thick’….check..!

          ..third line..check..!

          ..i’ll stand behind all that..

    • tc 6.2
      4 January 2015 at 10:48 am

      Yup probably a well funded activity given the deep pockets with a few of them using a range of handles and IP masking.

      Lusk is seeking a concerted and long term shift to the extreme right and slater wants to destroy the left so logically thats a fair assumption.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 6.2.1
        4 January 2015 at 4:08 pm

        Someone with an agenda in a political forum!

        I don’t want to destroy the Right, all this investment in amygdalectomy and pre-natal intelligence therapy is purely coincidental.

    • Murray Rawshark 6.3
      4 January 2015 at 10:50 pm

      You’ve accused me of being one. Which of those things do I do?

  7. philj 7
    4 January 2015 at 2:30 pm

    Will Shakespeare said it all
    ” PG or NOT PG, that is the question…..”
    Personally, no thanks. I just ignore him. Life’s too short..

    • Stephanie Rodgers 7.1
      4 January 2015 at 3:06 pm

      This is a common argument with regards to internet trolls, but unfortunately ignoring them doesn’t actually work. It’s fine and dandy for people who don’t mind scrolling past screeds of identical comments, but it doesn’t work for everyone and it doesn’t stop the trolls from trolling.

  8. joe90 8
    4 January 2015 at 4:37 pm

    Pricks.

    Israel has halted the transfer of tax revenues to the Palestinians following their bid to join the International Criminal Court, Israeli officials say.

    They said $127m (£82m; €106m) collected on behalf of the Palestinian Authority last month would be held back.

    The Palestinians submitted documents to join the ICC on Friday in a move opposed by both Israel and the US.

    Senior Palestinian official Saeb Erekat condemned the Israeli measure, calling it a “new war crime”.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-30667440

  9. Draco T Bastard 9
    4 January 2015 at 4:51 pm

    The Police Were Created to Control Poor and Working Class People

    Of course, the ruling class did not get everything it wanted, and had to yield on many points to the immigrant workers it sought to control. This is why, for instance, municipal governments backed away from trying to stop Sunday drinking, and mitraniwhy they hired so many immigrant police officers, especially the Irish. But despite these concessions, businessmen organized themselves to make sure the police were increasingly isolated from democratic control, and established their own hierarchies, systems of governance, and rules of behavior.

    It is, of course, US based but that quoted bit of the article raises the question: Is this what businesses mean when they say that we need small government?

    Over the last few decades it’s become an article of faith that government needs to be made smaller and that the functions of government need to be independent of government. We see this in many places now such as the independence of the RBNZ and other places but that independence often means that democratic control and accountability has been lost.

    • North 9.1
      4 January 2015 at 10:53 pm

      This is true DTB. I know this from my daily work in and about the District Court in probably the poorest demographic in New Zealand. And not infrequently I feel sick about it. But I am aging and I don’t have my prior vigour. The situation is very sad. It wastes and it wastes and it wastes the finest latent potential. And the ravaged, the victims, are then blamed. It makes me want to say “Fuck Those Gargoyles in the Cabinet Room !”

  10. phillip ure 10
    4 January 2015 at 5:07 pm

    i dunno what is more boring..

    ..a thread featuring p.g..

    ..or a thread dominated by alan talking about p.g..

    ..hard to think it cd be worse than p.g…

    ..but it is..

    ..again..q.e.d..

    • Sacha 10.1
      4 January 2015 at 5:11 pm

      what, are you 12?
      grow up.

      • Tracey 10.1.1
        4 January 2015 at 5:15 pm

        well said…

        • Sacha 10.1.1.1
          4 January 2015 at 5:18 pm

          Thank you. We get the quality of conversation we tolerate.

        • phillip ure 10.1.1.2
          4 January 2015 at 5:34 pm

          how is that false-equivalence-award..?

          ..sitting proudly on the mantlepiece..?

          ..shall we remind everyone why u earned it..?

          ..remember..

          ..why don’t you tell them…?

          ..(it was quite a hoot..)

          • The Al1en 10.1.1.2.1
            4 January 2015 at 7:04 pm

            I have to say that’s just not normal behaviour phillip, and certainly unacceptable on a forum of your peers. A couple of things you’ve posted are borderline plain vindictive. Sacha had it right we get what we tolerate.

            After thinking about the standard situation while at work under the baking hot sun, and how you’re getting more and more out of control, and how I seem to be the spark that ignites your angry fuel, I think I’m going to stop posting here for a while.

            I don’t think it’s right I be forced out because you don’t like being called to heel, yet I do bear some responsibility to the board for the way you’ve gone all weird and spiteful, so for the sake of the many I’ll sacrifice a week or two in the hope you can sort your shit out.

            If I see you just resorting to open nastiness with others, like you have with Tracy this afternoon, getting personal with the insults where you have no right to at all, then I’ll know it’s not me and your beyond help and back I’ll stroll and carry on as normal.

            I do hope you settle down and reflect on what you’re doing and what effect you’re having on the board here. The standard is a well read blog and you lower the tone of the place immeasurably with your petty point scoring and aggressive responses.
            Good luck.

  11. Michael 11
    4 January 2015 at 5:53 pm

    In the US, the TPPA discussions are in a very odd position. Obama wants fast-track authority to bypass Congress to sign it, and is a 100% supporter of the TPPA.

    Most House Democrats are opposed to this. The left is opposed to the TPPA entirely. There is also an interesting group of Republicans who are opposed to it either because they hate Obama (and don’t want to give him more authority – the ones who are basically ‘opposed everything Obama says just because’) or are generally opposed to TPPA-style agreements.

    There’s a big backlash to the TPPA and fast-track authority from both the Democratic Party ‘base’ (“progressives”).

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/09/trans-pacific-partnership-obama-boehner_n_4570837.html

    An interesting message from independent democratic socialist US senator Bernie Sanders on why he’s opposing the TPPA: http://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/the-trans-pacific-trade-tpp-agreement-must-be-defeated?inline=file

    Obama needs approval from the legislature to pass the TPPA. That’s not going to happen for two reasons: gridlock, and that there might be an odd coalition between the left of the Democratic Party and anti-Obama Republicans, who will block the agreement.

    Many in the Democratic Party are bitter about NAFTA (Obama even criticised NAFTA a few yrs ago) – which passed under Clinton between the Republicans and neo-liberal Democrats, and are bitter about the Democrats’ lurch to the right.

    Could the TPPA die in the country that seems to be pushing it the most?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 11.1
      4 January 2015 at 5:55 pm

      …and if so, will the countries who kick-started the whole process get back to business without all this US corporate interference?

      • Sacha 11.1.1
        4 January 2015 at 6:01 pm

        Should have called their bluff and kicked them out long ago. Nothing much in it for us, but plenty of downside. And approval-seeking little boys like Groser, McCully and Key cannot be trusted not to sign it to win a pat on the head from Uncle Sam.

  12. h123 12
    4 January 2015 at 5:58 pm

    What is this 😉
    Let’s be Freeed
    https://twitter.com/freeednz

    [lprent: Feel free to read it. Looks like a spoof site. Quite boring really…. if you don’t actively dislike the bloated whaledreck ego. ]

  13. phillip ure 13
    4 January 2015 at 6:11 pm

    as my repeated attempts to just ignore that other wanker..alan..don’t seem to work..

    ..(and i agree..him vs.me is as boring as fuck..i feel the same way about it..)

    ..from now on i will just respond with either silence..or an f.o…to anything he says..

    (..which stands for ‘fuck off’..)

    ..i’ll see if that works..

    ..be clear..i derive nothing from correcting that mindless-fool..

    ..and i wd prefer he just ignored me..

    ..as i will do to him..

    ..arguing with him is as much fun as arguing with p.g..

    ..and as an example of how successful that little prick p.g.is at derailing..go look at the general debate thread from yest..

    ..it started with a good posting from draco..

    ..i weighed in with what i thought..

    ..others were there..and it showed promise..

    ..then the little prick turned up..

    ..and it all went to shit..

  14. Sacha 14
    4 January 2015 at 7:01 pm

    The PG curse has legs: http://imperatorfish.com/2013/03/08/internet-hero-just-trying-to-make-world-a-greyer-place/

    “Some social media experts speculate that when future generations look back on the blogosphere and the reasons for its demise, they will find millions of Pete George comments and conclude that it died of boredom. However, the Beige Badger is not put off by such predictions.

    “I have a duty to sterilise all online political discourse in this country,” said George. “When people stop caring, stop believing, and stop trying, the grey men will have won. And what a glorious day that will be.””

  15. disturbed 15
    4 January 2015 at 8:17 pm

    Gosh! this is first time I went looking back at The Standard since early September when I got banned.

    I couldn’t believe how long I had got to read down the string until we got to a meaty policital subject blog of Key/Slater.

    Then just as I was settling in then after a couple of following blogs on Key/Slater, it descended into more pillow throwing at PG and others “up a tree making three”.

    Bloggers they were referring to.

    Finally got to an interesting blog at 11.
    Congratulations Michael it was a good blog for us to contemplate finally.

    I remember as a Kiwi running around Heartland USA in 1988 looking to start farming there after fleeing Rogernomics and quickly learned that the Americans are fiercely very protective of their farming economy.

    So we should accept Michaels claim that both sides of the political spectrum in USA are very likely to refuse being bound by a TPPA where our farming is not subsidised as theirs is, so we may see some rough roads for Key as he tries to rush the TPPA through while we are not looking.

  16. Bearded Git 16
    4 January 2015 at 8:21 pm

    Probably someone above has already picked up on this but Piketty is really cool:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/01/france-thomas-piketty-legion-of-honour

  17. Pat O'Dea 17
    4 January 2015 at 9:42 pm

    What’s going on here?

    “Embattled internet tycoon Kim Dotcom says he is now considered a pariah and may quit New Zealand.

    In an exclusive interview with the Herald on Sunday the Mega founder, who is facing internet piracy charges, says he is bearing the brunt of a vicious public backlash since the general election and now thinks his only option is to leave his adopted home at the end of US court proceedings.”
    LYNLEY BILBY
    (Lynley Bilby is a reporter for the Herald on Sunday)

    “Media claiming that I want to leave NZ is simply false.”
    KIM DOTCOM

    Twitter @KimDotcom

  18. Pat O'Dea 18
    4 January 2015 at 9:47 pm

    Dirty politics could not have succeeded without dirty journalism.

    So is that what is going on here?

    “Embattled internet tycoon Kim Dotcom says he is now considered a pariah and may quit New Zealand.

    In an exclusive interview with the Herald on Sunday the Mega founder, who is facing internet piracy charges, says he is bearing the brunt of a vicious public backlash since the general election and now thinks his only option is to leave his adopted home at the end of US court proceedings.”
    LYNLEY BILBY
    (Lynley Bilby is a reporter for the Herald on Sunday)

    “Media claiming that I want to leave NZ is simply false.”
    KIM DOTCOM
    Twitter @KimDotcom

  19. greywarshark 19
    4 January 2015 at 9:56 pm

    Peggy Seeger and Ewen McColl sang this one. I think it presents good questions for we NZs.

    Ballad Of Accounting lyrics

    In the morning we built the city
    In the afternoon walked through its streets
    Evening saw us sleeping
    We wandered through our days as if they would never end
    All of us imagined we had endless time to spend
    We hardly saw the crossroads and small attention gave
    To the landmarks on the journey from the cradle to the grave
    Cradle to the grave, cradle to the grave

    Did you learn to dream in the morning?
    Abandon dreams in the afternoon?
    Wait without a hope in the evening?
    Did you stand there in the traces and let them feed you lies?
    Did you trail along behind them wearing blinkers on your eyes?
    Did you kiss the foot that kicked you? Did you thank them for their scorn?
    Did you ask for their forgiveness for the act of being born?
    Act of being born, act of being born

    Did you alter the face of the city?
    Make any change in the world you found?
    Or did you observe all the warning?
    Did you read the trespass notice? Did you keep off the grass?
    Did you shuffle off the pavement just to let your betters pass?
    Did you learn to keep your mouth shut? Were you seen and never heard?
    Did you learn to be obedient and jump to at a word?
    Jump to at a word, jump to at a word

    And did you ever demand any answer?
    The who and the what and the reason why
    Did you ever question the setup?
    Did you stand aside and let them choose while you took second best?
    Did you let them skim the cream off and then give to you the rest?
    Did you settle for the shoddy? And did you think it right
    To let them rob you right and left and never make a fight?
    And never make a fight, never make a fight

    What did you learn in the morning?
    How much did you know in the afternoon?
    Were you content in the evening?
    Did they teach you how to question when you were at the school?
    Did the factory help you grow? Were you the maker or the tool?
    Did the place where you were living enrich your life and then?
    Did you reach some understanding of all your fellow men?
    All your fellow men, all your fellow men, all your fellow men
    http://www.allthelyrics.com/lyrics/karan_casey/ballad_of_accounting-lyrics-1239932.html

  20. Colonial Rawshark 20
    4 January 2015 at 10:23 pm

    The Archdruid reviews 2014 and looks forward to 2015

    All I can say is it looks like we are another year along the resource depletion roller coaster curve of civilisation decline.

    http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.co.nz/2014/12/the-cold-wet-mackerel-of-reality.html

    • Chooky 20.1
      4 January 2015 at 11:11 pm

      CR….I know you are a fan of the Archdruid …but who is he exactly?…and why should we take note?

      • Colonial Rawshark 20.1.1
        5 January 2015 at 12:24 am

        John Michael Greer is one of the most insightful commentators on the current decline of advanced civilisation and has written several books on the topic and how to adjust oneself to new realities even as the rest of the official world continues its game of pretend and extend.

        http://www.resilience.org/author-detail/1007065-john-michael-greer

        • Draco T Bastard 20.1.1.1
          5 January 2015 at 12:52 am

          He’s reasonably insightful but he misses some of the most obvious things such as the fact that any form of farming reduces the needed labour to feed a society quite significantly. This simple fact is what will keep us as an industrial society even after the fossil fuels are used up (If we survive the using up of the fossil fuels is another question).

          • Colonial Rawshark 20.1.1.1.1
            5 January 2015 at 1:08 am

            You must have a different definition of what a modern “industrial society” is. After fossil fuel is gone, it’ll be predominantly a salvage economy, which is not the same thing.

            “Reasonably insightful” – that’s damning with faint praise and I think quite unwarranted.

            He’s reasonably insightful but he misses some of the most obvious things such as the fact that any form of farming reduces the needed labour to feed a society quite significantly.

            Pre 18th century agricultural methods (i.e. without the use of coal or oil based inputs) are pretty well understood. I don’t think Greer missed them in his assessments.

            • AsleepWhileWalking 20.1.1.1.1.1
              5 January 2015 at 7:44 am

              The first hydrogen car (Toyota) is due for release to the public in 2015 and very soon fossil fuels will become the “alternative”.

              You need the Trends Journal.

              • Colonial Rawshark …
                5 January 2015 at 9:20 am

                The “Trends journal” sounds like an opiate to disguise the fact that the trend is down.

                There will be no alternative to fossil fuels available to the 99.9%

                I’m happy to guess the all time high for hydrogen cars in the world will peak at about 50,000 in 15 years. NZ might see 500 of those at one time. i.e. Hydrogen for personal vehicle transport is a waste of time, a faddish showboat.

            • Draco T Bastard 20.1.1.1.1.2
              5 January 2015 at 9:29 am

              You must have a different definition of what a modern “industrial society” is. After fossil fuel is gone, it’ll be predominantly a salvage economy, which is not the same thing.

              You make that sound like it’s a bad thing but, IMO, we should have been far more draconian about recycling for a long time.

              Pre 18th century agricultural methods (i.e. without the use of coal or oil based inputs) are pretty well understood. I don’t think Greer missed them in his assessments.

              Oh, he missed them alright. He goes on about everybody needing to work on the farm but every single agricultural society throughout history shows that to be bollocks.

              Agriculture does two things:

              1. It frees up labour to do other things than look for food (Although, there’s still a lot of uncertainty regarding how much time nomadic peoples had to look for food. They also did other things).
              2. Staying in one place allows people to build infrastructure and it’s the infrastructure that truly supports an industrial society.

              Neither of those two things are going to disappear and, most importantly, we don’t need fossil fuels for farming. We can build electric tractors, trucks and trains powered through renewable electricity that will allow high productivity farming to continue.

              • Colonial Rawshark …
                5 January 2015 at 9:38 am

                1) The dominant characteristic of a salvage economy is not “recycling”. It is about salvaging used/existing/improvised parts and components to keep technology working because you cannot fabricate or obtain new ones for love or money.

                2) Please find me a reference where he writes that more than 80% of people will need to work on a farm in the future. The society he has described in his own fictional series (now published book) Stars Reach shows me that your claim is false.

                3) “We can build electric tractors, trucks and trains powered through renewable electricity that will allow high productivity farming to continue.” Please describe to me how you intend to build electric trains with minimal access to fossil fuels.

                You do know that “our society could/should” do a sensible and necessary thing doesn’t mean anything in real life, right? Just look around you for proof of that.

        • Chooky 20.1.1.2
          5 January 2015 at 9:05 am

          OK thanks CR….as you are such an insightful commentator most of the time guess I should look into what he says

    • BassGuy 20.2
      5 January 2015 at 1:10 pm

      I found this buried in the comments:

      http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/indiana-jones-collapsed-cultures-western-civilization-bubble/

      Makes for an interesting read.

      Edit: I meant to add a quote, one that I’m sure I see in current government – “…leaders tend to see major crises more as threats to their own position rather than as systemic challenges for the societies that they govern or the institutions that they manage.”

      To be fair, though, I may simply be seeing interpreting information in a manner supportive of my own conclusions.

  21. Pete George 21
    5 January 2015 at 7:45 am

    I see I’ve derailed another thread. It’s amazing what can be achieved by not being here. Bizarre.

    Isn’t there something for the labour left to look forward to in 2015? Surely the resurgence of Labour is a little bit more interesting and important than one obscure blogger.

    Amongst the angst The Lost Sheep made some pertinent points though.

    2008 was a case of Labour not picking up on the need to change their strategy in order to meet a shift in that ‘complex electoral sentiment’.

    However ‘Electoral sentiment’ among swing voters is very stable at this point, if last years election is any indication.
    Time will prove me right or wrong, but I am utterly convinced that unless the Left produces a new and compelling strategy to attract the swing voter away from the comfort zone, there is not the slightest chance of a LW Govt. at the next election.

    And…

    Agree Andrew is showing positive signs of looking honestly at the state of the Left, and making a firm statement of intent to frame a new dialogue of his own.
    As a Leftie gone sour on the Left, I’m watching hopefully.

    But that’s traitorous to OAB:

    In what sense are you a Leftie? The sort that votes for National?

    A good response:

    The sort whose ancestors were all workers and left England to escape class privilege.
    Whose Dad grew up in a tent during the depression and was a life long Socialist.
    Who read Marx at 16 and called myself a communist for a while, before settling on ‘Democratic Socialist’.
    Who worked in minimum wage laboring jobs for 20 years, acting as a union delegate in many of them.
    Started a business and always lived by my Dad’s instruction to never forget your employees are your greatest asset.
    Have been involved over many years in many organisations promoting environmental and social initiatives.
    Voted exclusively Labour / Green for 35 years.

    Over the last few years I got absolutely frustrated with the disunity, lack of vision, and negativity of the Political Left in NZ, to the extent that last year that for the first time in my life I could not convince myself I wanted NZ in the hands of the current Left Wing block, and so I voted against them by way of protest.

    What does that make me?
    Part of that ‘complex electoral sentiment’ I reckon.
    But you’ll still label me a RW Tr**ll I guess!

    OAB:

    Protesting disunity by slamming the door on your way out.

    Slow clap.

    Another lost voter being discouraged from returning to Labour.

    The lost sheep:

    Sigh.
    Remind me again why only about 30 people bother to comment regularly on this site….

    It’s because of me apparently despite all the positive and welcoming behaviour of “about 30 people”.

    • Te Reo Putake 21.1
      5 January 2015 at 8:20 am

      DNFTT 🙄

    • vto 21.2
      5 January 2015 at 8:29 am

      “I see I’ve derailed another thread. It’s amazing what can be achieved by not being here. Bizarre.”

      Not bizarre at all PG.

      It is called action and reaction. You do the action and the reaction follows. Just because you personally do not anticipate all of the possible reactions, such as critiquing your actions without you around, does not make it bizarre.

      In fact if anything it is bizarre that you cannot understand why this all might be….. eh

      (and supports my view that you are not so much a tro1l as a misguided lightweight)

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