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America what were you thinking?

Written By: - Date published: 10:54 am, November 10th, 2016 - 376 comments
Categories: climate change, International, us politics - Tags:


The results are in and Donald Trump will be the next President of the United States. I cannot begin to say how disastrous a result this is. He is an incompetent imbecille, someone who should never have been trusted with managing a casino let alone the nuclear codes.

The complaint amongst some lefties about Clinton is that she was a corrupt Wall Street shrill. Are they right? Very possibly but I prefer a bit of small scale corruption to the most powerful nation in the world having a leader who does not believe in climate change.

The big picture if Clinton was elected? Sure Wall Street would continue with its gouging ways and some obnoxious rich people would continue to enjoy their privilege. And this is why I personally thought that Bernie Sanders should be the candidate, no ifs and no buts. But once Clinton was selected I thought there was no alternative but to support her. I did not like it. If I lived in the States I might have shown up to work for her whereas for Obama and many others I would have been there with boots on. But Clinton would have served the common good far better than Trump ever will.

Positives for her. She is intelligent. She believes in gender equality and environmental protection and the virtue of ethnic diversity. She is sane. Her Supreme Court choices would have been liberal.

Negatives for her. All the Wall Street stuff that has been talked about ad nauseam and also the email server although my response to this is still “meh” and I can’t believe how the FBI interfered in the election process by releasing that letter in the heat of an election campaign.

Positives for Trump? He is possibly that stupid that the Washington Mandarins will render him pretty inept. There are no other positives.

Negatives? Where do I start. Any lefty who says that a positive is he is not as bad as Clinton will enjoy from me four years of “I told you so”. He will wreck havoc on international relations, a world approach to climate change is pretty well dead, constitutional norms will be destroyed, ethnic relations in the US will be stuffed. His potential to cause harm is massive.

Comparisons will be drawn with Brexit. And they are proper. People at the bottom of the economic pile seeing the levels of extreme wealth and wanting to object will ignore requests for economic orthodoxy and get upset at politicians regarding their job as being a career and not a calling. And demagogues will attract. The message for the left is that we have to be authentic. Not calculated.

There has to be a better way …

376 comments on “America what were you thinking? ”

  1. Philj 1

    People have had enough BS from the establishment, said F U, and voted with their gut. They are angry and that’s predictable human behaviour. Viewing this outcome as irrational is missing the point. My late father said years ago ‘What really pisses me off is that we get the government we deserve’

    • dukeofurl 1.1

      So the losing candidate got 47.7% of the vote and the winner got 47.5% !

      When you say things like ‘People have had enough BS from the establishment, said F U, and voted with their gut’ you should be able to back that up with actual things that support that.
      Otherwise its called talking through an opening at the top of your head.

      an inconvenient fact , most voters earning less than $50k ( the working class) voted for Clinton ( by a reasonable margin)
      “According to the exit-poll figures, people who earn less than fifty thousand dollars a year—who make up a bit more than a third of the population—voted for Clinton over Trump by a margin of about eleven points, fifty-two per cent to forty-one per cent. The roughly two-thirds of the population who earn more than fifty thousand dollars a year voted for Trump.” Exit polls via Andrew Geddis

      • herb 1.1.1

        You obviously missed the bit where the polls were completely wrong.
        People lie to pollsters.
        Do you not think somebody asking you publically who you voted for may not be that accurate.
        The vitriol and bitterness towards Trump supporters from lefties , is good reason to lie.
        Gregs comment he would prefer some corruption over incompetence says a lot about him and why his party are hovering around 25%.
        Read Danyl McLaughlins post at Dimpost about the left.
        He gets it as have the voters in America, the UK and soon in the EU.

        The world is over people telling us how we should live , how we should think and being attacked for offering an opinion different tomleftist group think.

        The comments to my post will prove me correct

        • locus

          oh herb, sorry you feel that the left are telling you how you should live…. what have all the cruel lefties been saying you should do… show compassion to oppressed minoriities? be considerate towards others not as fortunate? accept that climat change is a reality? respect women’s right to not have rich powerful people grab their genitals?

          oh how “attacked” you must feel

    • framu 1.2

      “Viewing this outcome as irrational is missing the point. ”

      Thats only if you ignore that trump isnt some great working class saviour.

      Thats the irrational bit – voting for yet another member of the status quo while thinking that your not.

      But i will admit that i dont think the people of america really had much of a choice re: breaking said status quo

  2. Infused 2

    This just shows you inept you lot are about what’s actually happening in the US. I told everyone here Trump would win and cashed out my bet last night paying out at 1/33 odds.

    America is fucked off. They are sick of the corporate shrills like Clinton and her corruption.

    I bet many likely don’t like Trump. This is a big fuck you to corp America and its puppets.

    “The complaint amongst some lefties about Clinton is that she was a corrupt Wall Street shrill. Are they right? Very possibly but I prefer a bit of small scale corruption to the most powerful nation in the world having a leader who does not believe in climate change.”

    You can’t be fucking serious. Small corruption… you need to look at what she has been involved in.

    Waiting for lprent dipshit ‘you all hate women’ reply.

    • framu 2.1

      “This is a big fuck you to corp America and its puppets.”

      Trump is part of corp america

      i think lots of people get that people are pissed off with the political establishment – whats baffling is that people seem to think trump isnt part of the exact same establishment. Political and business elites arent that far apart these days

      especially so in american politics, considering the massive sums required to run

      but either pick was crap IMO – so “who do you choose?” and all that

      • Enough is Enough 2.1.1

        Trump may be part of Corporate America but he gained support for campaigning strongly against Corporate America.

        Wall Street advocates for free trade so that it can export American manufacturing jobs to foreign countries where there is no minimum wage or workers rights – all in the interests of profit.

        Trump has stood up to that and said he will tear up all trade deals and bring jobs home.

        Wall Street is quite open to immigrants cheap labour flooding into the country all in the interests of profit.

        Trump has stood against that by campaigning against illegal and mass immigration.

        These are the reasons he is now president.

        • framu

          trump said lots of things – but are we really going to be pretend hes that different?

          i know why people voted for him – but theres a huge difference between the sales pitch and the reality – for everything

      • Infused 2.1.2

        Trump may be part of corp America, but he isn’t part of the large conglomerates putting cash in all the politicians pockets in one way or another. IE the Clinton foundation.

        You can see this with his stance on free trade, outsourcing etc.


        That’s what won the election.

        • framu

          lets not get confused between what someone says in order to gain support and their track record

          trump talked a good game – but IMO its just talk. Hes still as much a part of the big business status quo as anybody donating big to hilary or any other politician

          • miravox

            I pretty much could have written the comments you’ve laid out framu.

            To me, what that means is all we’re going to see for lower income earners is a redistribution of resources between social groups. Once again the poor will be fighting over a shrinking slice of the economic pie because the top one-percent have just been given the opportunity to take more of it.

            Trump is the one-percent and the republicans will take off the poor and middle class to give to the rich. Inequalities will increase, poverty will increase, poor health will increase and the bottom 50% income earners will fight among themselves even more for scraps from the tables of the rich – it’s just that different poor than now will appear to have the ear of government, and different poor will be the biggest losers among this economically deprived sector.

            The republicans hold all the cards, the only disagreement they have is protectionism-immigration (Brexit anyone) and they will work that through in favour of themselves.

            – healthcare will again be privatised and reproductive rights curtailed
            – education will be further privatised
            – infrastructure build will be done by private firms
            – private security and military will increase
            – costs of things poor people spend their money on will increase as trade barriers go up
            – blue collar jobs will disappear at a more rapid rate than now as people who need the stuff they produce cannot afford to buy

            and that’s not even mentioning how environmental and climate change non-policy and changing international relations will affect them, or the civil and civic rights changes that will come into play.

            The Democrats have a lot to answer for by not selecting Sanders. Sanders was a dead cert to be a transformative leader and would have beated Trump. But they were set on giving Clinton her turn, confirming a political class divide. I cringed every time the Clinton campaign turned up with celebrity backing – entrenching the notion of privilege and completely misreading the people they needed to communicate with. In the meantime the most privileged of all on the other team with their perma-tans, botox and glitz were looking like a family that had just put gladrags on to go to a party rather than people who lived a life of privilege all the time.

            The question is for leftist Americans is how to reform that party? Abandoning it will leave the left without the resources they need to be a viable option at the next elections. It must be taken back and reformed. British Labour managed to see off the neo-liberal portion of their party for now, will the Democrats be able to do the same? For as long as private money runs politics, I’m not hopeful.

            • georgecom

              pretty much agree. Trump is a 1 percenter and will do what is in Trumps best interests. He represents privilege and will do nothing but entrench privilege. His character is odious, misogynistic, egotistical, petulant and self entitled. The opportunity for the progressive movement now is that in 4 years time real change can eventuate if Sanders or someone of his ilk with a broad base following . Trump will not bring the change many people expect, the rhetoric will not be met with reality. Wise up, read the small print, and weep.

              It’s interesting that people I have spoken to about Clinton/Trump, and these are not deeply lefty Kiwis or political activists, they are average ‘political consumers’ not ‘political citizens’, all said they would have preferred to see Sanders as the candidate given that he represented real change. They saw through the Trump PR spin.

        • the pigman

          This is a different Infused to the infused “Judith Collins is hott ps Chris Bishop 2020” infused, right?

          How con…infusing.

  3. weka 3

    Comparisons will be drawn with Brexit. And they are proper. People at the bottom of the economic pile seeing the levels of extreme wealth and wanting to object will ignore requests for economic orthodoxy and get upset at politicians regarding their job as being a career and not a calling.

    I’ll be interested to see some good break downs of who voted. Do we know that it’s those at the bottom of the heap that voted Trump? Did they vote at all? Turnout seems to be low,


    I’m guessing it’s not the people at the bottom of the pile, but those who are lower than they want to be but still high enough up to see people at the bottom below them and feel fear. If this is true, then we need to be more nuanced in our understanding, because the whole white working class Trump voter meme doesn’t serve us well enough and I think detracts from those people getting their needs met.

  4. Bob 4

    Mickey, if you want another perspective on the positives and negatives of each candidate, I think Wild Katipo said it best last night: https://thestandard.org.nz/us-election-day-discussion-post-91116/#comment-1258155

    • dukeofurl 4.1

      Just the same old piffle repeating Trump attack lines, ignoring the reality that Obama was commander in chief over the last 8 years. Wall St ? , well who appointed Geithner then to his job.
      Who would guess, they hate it when the Clintons win ( she did win the actual vote of the people) and they hate it more when they lose.

  5. Ad 5

    If the left can’t address things like the global free flow of labour, policing immigration hard with strong border security, sustaining bourgeoisie security from entrenched entitlements, and addressing the damage of free trade as well as its benefits, it’s going to keep struggling, because those things have been proven touch points in Europe and the US for some time.

    Don’t need a radical agenda, just admission that the winning right of politics have points of truth to heed.

    • b waghorn 5.1

      ”the damage of free trade ”

      The only way to stop free trade being damaging is to make sure the production costs ,mainly wages in most cases, are the same for products being imported or exported.

      • weka 5.1.1

        How would that work? The whole thing about neoliberalism is that it uses globalisation to undercut local workers’ rights, reduce wages, and thus increase profit margins. The only way having the same production costs across the board would work is if NZ workers were paid the same as Bangladeshi workers. Which won’t happen because the costs of living are so different.

        • Chch_chiquita

          With the direction our immigration is going we are on the right track to having NZ workers paid the same as Bangladeshi workers.

        • KJT

          Isn’t that Nationals aim?

        • b waghorn

          In some free trade deals we have to let countries like taiwan compete to supply things like trains , but as they can use a far cheaper worker than nz can supply they win,we need they need another f in their ftas , fair free trade
          It’s the workers in the developed countries baring most of the cost of globalisation, while the rich clip the ticket and it’s why the yanks got trumped .

  6. Manuka AOR 6

    The big picture if Clinton was elected? Sure Wall Street would continue with its gouging ways

    Wall Street did not seem too upset by the result :
    New York Stock Exchange traders on Wednesday didn’t seem too distressed about Clinton’s candidacy crashing down. CNBC’s Carl Quintanilla reports that people working at NYSE were chanting “Lock her up!” and “loser” as they were watching her concession speech. http://www.rawstory.com/2016/11/exuberant-wall-street-traders-chant-lock-her-up-during-hillarys-concession/

  7. JoeTheLion 7

    Ahhh. Butthurt leftist tears so yummy.

    • Richard Rawshark 7.1

      lol. pops in, shits, pisses off. and gets it totally backwards..

    • I typed a comment last night that might shed some light on the error of assuming Clinton was ‘Left’.

      Far from it.

      Im glad Trump won for better or for worse. Why?

      The ‘Left wing ‘has among its adherents so many who , in their desire to faithfully follow traditional ‘left wing ’causes and ideas , are so easily manipulated and fall prey to cunning counter motives. The same can be said of the ‘right wing’adherents as well.

      You see, Gloabalists , … care not whether you adhere to either Left or Right wing partys. For them ,… it is about creating a homogeneous worldview that can accommodate minor differences in policy yet arrive at pretty much the same outcome. A classic case in point is the 4th Labour govt of 1984.

      Nothing at all to do with its original charter. A far ‘right wing’ideology coming from a traditional workers party. Go figure.

      Subsequently, for the last 3 decades , we have had in NZ a ‘passing of the baton’ between both National and Labour. Essentially the continuation of broadly the same social and economic direction. Interspersed with nuances whenever public dissatisfaction grows too obvious.

      And the root ideology that unites this homogeneity is this : Neo Liberalism.

      That is your real enemy . Neo Liberalism.

      And unfortunately many of you are sucked into letting yourselves major on personality’s , side issues and political partys across the spectrum. Its sad to see.
      So many , many times we see comments that miss the root cause of their ire , – and instead heaping criticism and scorn on individuals or partys without recognizing the real motives on why things were done.

      It is almost as if the political stance one chooses is so cherished that it induces a kind of ‘blindness’ towards perceiving the hand of the real puppetmasters pulling the strings. And so often that isn’t the politicians at all. They are simply the outward manifestations of an inner set of directives. In this case , those directives are taken from the broad guidelines of Neo Liberal ideology. It matters not what political party it belongs to , nor what country it is found in, nor what social causes it uses to influence public and corporate thinking. So long as its interests are served.

      And it tailors itself from whichever geographic location it finds itself in.

      And so , we have now an American President ( still elect ) that has pitted himself against the Rothchilds banking elite, the Mont Pelerin society , the BilderBergers, and many , many other subversive globalist groups and their lower tiered out-branches . Globalists who , … view the existence of the sovereign nation state as anathema to their objectives. And to what George Bush Senior referred to when he stated during the First Gulf War,…

      ” No government will oppose our New World Order nor will they stand against our thousand points of light ”…

      What do you think he meant by a ‘New World Order’?…

      Or ‘ A Thousand Points of Light ‘?…

      We all have heard of this New World Order, but how many realize just what is the ‘Thousand Points of Light’?… it is actually a Masonic term. And to realize the significance and relevance of that peculiar statement one would have to have some knowledge of who Adam Weishaupt was . And also the peculiar rites carried out at Bohemian Grove in North Carolina among many of the USA’s elites and Presidents…

      These people care nothing about in what vehicle their political delivery comes to the masses ,… so long as the longer term objectives are met, that it is done without mass uprisings and that the body public is kept divided and fighting amongst themselves on side issues.

      And this is precisely and exactly what the above commenter ( JoeTheLion ) and many others have fallen victim to. The supposed dichotomy between the so -called ‘Right ‘and ‘Left’.

      And the only true and lasting answer ( besides constant exposure of its perpetrators) to the destruction of this diabolical globalist neo liberal ideology and its One World Government planners was practiced in the last half of the 20th century.

      And it was called Social Democracy . And in tandem with that , it was based on an economic theory called Keynesian Economics. And it was the most prosperous era the world had ever known. And the reason it had to be subverted was because it stood in the path of the concentration of global wealth into the hands of the planners of the New World Order people. And with that wealth came their power.

      So now we have an American President elect who is chaffing at the bit to stick it to these people and poke both fingers in their eyes. And yet many of you complain. And you would far rather support a proven globalist emissary and worker for the New World Order in the form of Hillary Rodham Clinton.

      You would far rather turn a blind eye to the criminality of these people ( and by that I mean mass global poverty , mass deaths in the form of needless wars etc ) simply because they have the OUTWARD APPEARANCE of being ‘Left’.

      You have well and truly been suckered in by external appearances and sugar coated words all because your instincts to be aligned with ‘Leftist ‘thinking has far too great a pull on you.

      And conversely , the same can be said by blind loyalist Right Wingers when their turn to have issues comes up.

      The American public voted in accordance with the empirical and obvious evidence of the fruits of 3 decades of neo liberalism and said ‘ENOUGH !!! ‘.

      And , like BREXIT in England , … the common people of the USA elected their person to strike back at what they perceived as a cross party political system rife with deceit and corruption and decided to give a timely reminder to these Globalists and New World Order shadow workers that such things as 66 million deaths caused by having to fight a dictator in Germany meant that protection of a democracy does not come cheap.

      And to do that , they needed a bold – if arrogant and brash ( think Churchhill ) leader to do it. A fearful , shrinking violet would never fill the criteria needed to bulldoze these globalist subversives out of the way.

      Donald J Trump is no softly spoken prude, that’s for sure, and hes got faults. But he has been known to be conciliatory and work towards business compromise , he has got his heart in the right place, he does love his country and he is the nearest thing to a Keynes thinking American politician weve seen for decades.’

      I think we should stop focusing on the surface things and start to take a look at the broader picture – and just who the other mostly unseen players really are and what they really are aiming for before we throw the baby out with the bathwater.

      • Richard Rawshark 7.2.1

        Far to long in making your point WK, but agree I do.

        • WILD KATIPO

          L0L ,… sorry for being so verbose, but its such a huge field with economics, sociology , political sciences, ethics – the list goes on and on.

          At the end of the day , a fair go for all people, national sovereignty , peaceful international relations, and such like ,… there is no reason on this earth why we cannot have these things, but sadly , it must be protected against those who would want absolute totalitarian power , – from either the Right or the Left.

          • Richard Rawshark

            All good, just my eyes are shocking and I lose the lines all the time.

            But the crux of your message, spot on.

            Lots of us saying the same thing, you know , we all have opinions, we say them here n there and looking for reinforcement of our beliefs from others.

            I was always hesitant that, everyone else was doing so well, the fault must be me I don’t fit, I moan to much, I should be greatful for what I have.

            I had settled into thinking it’s my fault I should have been a Key and made millions, but millions of dollars, meh.

            rather just have enough, if you know what I mean.

            enough to live without stressing.

            90% of people just want enough. nothing more..

            when the politicians can create that, I don’t care if the 10% get mega rich, just make sure the rest of us are doing ok. Don’t get tooo over the top. Ruin it for everyone else by thinking your the man.

            which I think, tied in with what you say.

          • jenny kirk

            Agree, Wild K. Your comments reflect what I’ve been thinking …. people are getting very fed up with neo-liberalism and this globalisation which doesn’t look after the people at home. We saw that with those major rallies against TPPA.
            Trade is good and needed to help keep us afloat. But it needs to be fair and just and neo-liberalism does not allow for that.
            Ad at 5 above notes this too.

      • Biggest plus one I’ve handed out in a long time. Thanks for this post, Wild Katipo!

      • gsays 7.2.3

        well said wk.

        i agree that neo lib (it’s neither new nor liberal) thinking, is the enemy.
        that is why i hold little hope for a change of government next year.
        unless labour has a borderline radical shift in policy and direction.

        i undersand that mickey, the author of this post, has a bit of seniority in labour circles (forgive me if this is wrong). the idea that a little bit of corruption is ok, or that it can be ignored that she is beholden to wall street gives me the heebies.

        i get we are in a race to the bottom, but with this sort of status quo, don’t frighten the horses thinking, does not get my support come elction time.

        • jenny kirk

          gsays – I don’t think Mickey S was saying a “little bit of corruption is ok” – and in fact that is totally opposite to what Labour people believe. No corruption is okay.

          Perhaps MS was thinking along the lines of Clinton was the better of two “evils” and you’ve misinterpreted him.

          And you obviously haven’t noticed that Labour is undertaking “a borderline radical shift in policy and direction” – this has been happening over the last few years – starting with members having a real say in the Policy Platform, continuing with the Leaders contests, and now culminating in policy announcements which are clearly directed away from the neo-liberalism of the past.

          • gsays

            hi jenny
            “but I prefer a bit of small scale corruption to the most powerful nation in the world having a leader who does not believe in climate change.”
            that says to me he has a price for some corruption, that price is to acknowledge climate change.
            funny, i saw the labour mps troughing it in the sky casino box during the sky conference bruhaha as low scale corruption.

            for me the tppa is not a trade deal, it is the entrenching of corporatisation.
            labour keep saying they don’t support it in this form.

            you are correct, i haven’t noticed a change in labour’s direction, and i am far more aware of politics than yr average citizen.
            as for leadership contests… shearer, cunliffe, little.. it reminds me of the gala day quickfire raffle, down to the prize being a frozen chook.

            for labour organisers to not heed the warnings from brexit and this election would be foolish.

      • joe90 7.2.4

        ‘Thousand Points of Light’?… it is actually a Masonic term. And to realize the significance and relevance of that peculiar statement one would have to have some knowledge of who Adam Weishaupt was .

        Barking mad spider bites self, deluded fuckwittery ensues.

        Our History
        The Points of Light Story

        1987: Community advocates found New York Cares.

        1989: President George H. W. Bush’s inaugural address invokes the vision of a “thousand points of light,” and invites the nation to take action through service to their fellow citizens.

        1990: President Bush establishes the Daily Point of Light Award for individuals making a difference. During his administration, President Bush formally recognizes more than 1,000 volunteers as “points of light.” He advocates that “points of light” demonstrate how “a neighbor can help a neighbor.” The award is now administered by Points of Light.


        • WILD KATIPO

          Thanks for the aggressive partisan counter punch.

          Heres one back .


          And next time, try not to be such a sucker for the ”cover story’.

          In fact , heres another to tickle your fancy.


          And by the way , the innocent little philanthropic society you cherry picked has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING WHATSOEVER to the context of just why George Bush Senior would quote a charitable organisation in the middle of a speech about the current war he was referring to and the New World Order…

          Rather daft, dont you think?…

          Go figure some more about those ‘ sugar coated words’ I made mention of earlier… you just might see how ludicrous was the defense you just offered for the CIA ‘s one time Chief and Director….

          And ‘Have a nice day ‘, … as the Americans would say.

          • joe90

            An end times loon, too. Bless.

          • Richard Rawshark

            Well I read both, Joe90, you need help. Seriously, and if your in denial you should leave and not spread your disease here.

            W K. keep your distance from this, weirdo.

            • joe90

              I suppose you think them Khazarian Mafia Juice are the cause of all the world’s ills, too.

              • Richard Rawshark

                No, just your off topic and bringing in weirdo shit.

                • the pigman

                  But… it’s WK who is ranting about the illuminati and global conspiracy theories? And claiming Trump has his heart in the right place? Or did those bad eyes of yours skip those lines?

                  We’re back in fucking upside down land.
                  You will never achieve anything throwing fevered punch at these shadows.
                  Might as well be Bradbury’s blog…
                  … jesus fuck despair!

                • locus

                  i thought joe90 was bang on topic, pretty funny and neatly captured the twittery

              • Keep going joe the bullshit lummi stuff sits well with trumpies.

  8. Lanthanide 8

    People at the bottom of the heap voted for Trump, because they want to be prosperous again.

    Which is why we’re completely screwed when peak oil really bites and we’re facing a downward economic spiral with no let up.

    • Sam C 8.1

      Peak oil? No such thing.

      • Colonial Viper 8.1.1

        Peak conventional oil was in 2006.

        • Sam C

          “Peak conventional oil”? Last time I checked, oil as a result of fracking was still oil, and cars still run on it.

          • Lanthanide

            Yes, but it’s called “conventional oil” and “fracked oil” for a reason.

            Fracked oil costs more to extract, and each individual well quickly reaches it’s maximum flowrate (usually within 12 months) and then quickly declines, so after 5 years there is little more than a trickle from most fracked wells. Conventional oil wells usually run for decades.

            Also, there are different grades of oil, so saying “cars still run on it” is missing the point – cars run on refined oil, not crude. There is a huge amount of oil left in the world, and it’ll last for thousands of years – however most of it is heavy sour crude, or tar sands. These forms take a lot of money and technical expertise to extract and refine, and when refined produce much less gasoline and other light distillates than conventional crude.

            But I think you’re just in denial / trolling, so I’m not going to bother writing any more.

      • Stuart Munro 8.1.2

        This is why the Right are such assholes – they think they can go on fucking things up forever and God or some other deus ex machina will bail them out. Thermodynamics days no.

    • Richard Rawshark 8.2

      “People at the bottom of the heap voted for Trump, because they want to be prosperous again.”

      No and yes, it’s not something I think anyone could put into a 1 sentence answer Lant at all.

      This has been brewing since the 70’s right or wrong do you think?

      • Lanthanide 8.2.1

        It was mostly the rust-belt states that voted for Trump over Clinton, and in these states their problems really started around 2007-2008. Unemployment has recovered in these states, but the average wage is down, and there’s much less certainty for the future of their families.

        • Richard Rawshark

          I don’t think you can say most people, as that translates to more.. as in lots more..

          the voting nationwide was close, with actually Hillary being in the lead by actual voting counts, it’s their system that gave him the win, and why ours is broken too, but half that is the issue, that other half have been on the losing end of elections for years, upon years without any politician doing a god damn thing.

          It was a win for the silent minority, those who are just ignored, and as one person said.., quoting a interviewed American on the election and on his support for Trump .

          “He is not the best messenger – but he has the right message.”

          • Lanthanide

            I didn’t say “most people”, I said it was mostly the rust-belt states.

            If you look at the states that Obama won, that Clinton lost and that therefore lost her the election, it was “mostly the rust-belt states”.

    • infused 8.3

      If you look at the stats which are coming out now, you are simply wrong.

    • locus 8.4

      hmm i think you’ll find plenty of people on top of the heap (and a few on the bottom) who voted for Trump as a route to stick it to the blacks, hispanics, immigrants, and those sevants of the devil … the democrats (aka those other swearwords – liberals and progressives)

      but a big mistake for us to assume that a very large number of those on the bottom did not vote for Hillary, and imo, patronising to think they were not aware of her plans for easing pressures on poor and disadvantaged groups by extending health care, family support, publicly funded colleges, etc…


  9. Keep your head in the sand Mickey.

    Australian Labor needs to reinstate Mark Latham as leader. They’d win in a landslide.

    If Andrew Little can’t be NZ’s Mark Latham he needs to be replaced by someone who can.

    Identity politics piss off the mainstream population.

    Job destroying so called “green” policies (like global warming BS) piss off the working class.

    Get the Labour party out of the hands of poorly educated well brainwashed urban liberals/ progressives and you might make some electoral progress.

    • Ad 9.1

      Latham was a total nut job and well out of there.
      One very average book is not a qualification to lead Australia.

      • Redbaiter 9.1.1


        And Hillary had Lady Gaga, Miley Cyrus and black rappers supporting her.

        Sure way to push away middle of the road voters.

        Labour does not need these kind of degenerate exploitative rich wankers from the entertainment industry on their side.

        Lizzie Marvelly in NZ is a complete turn off to so many, yet she’s up front for the Labour cause.

        Major mistake.

        What will it take before you people realise your strategy is hopeless and your advisors have it completely wrong?

        • Sam C

          Absolutely correct. And Marvelly’s family are loaded, bought her an apartment in Auckland and have sold their hotel business in Rotorua to (shock, horror), non resident Chinese people.

          Hypocrisy much?

  10. Atiawa 10

    I’m unsure if Americans could have elected a President more out of touch with the issues affecting those who voted for him.

  11. Bearded Git 11

    The Democrats sneaked another Senate seat at the end (making 2) which is something.

    Right now Hillary is ahead 47.7 versus 47.5 on the popular vote and will win this.

    • dukeofurl 11.1

      Its only 700 votes margin.
      Its reputed that $100 mill was spent in this small state which shows the barriers were up against in the other senate races.

      But it could be likely the Dems will lose one if the current conservative Dem for West Virginia swaps parties. ( thinking ahead to 2 years with his heavily pro Trump state)

  12. Enough is Enough 12

    It is quite clear what America (or at least a large portion of them) were thinking.

    In my view this was not a vote for Trump. It was a vote against the current system.

    Trump identified that many Americans were angry with the status quo and he played to that. The rust belt decided this election. They turned their backs on a system that has given them nothing in the past 40 years.

    The choice was more of the same, or lets try something radically different.

    Change is coming to America

  13. Ralf Crown 13

    There is a new political wind, a very strong wind, blowing in the world, and the direction is not favourable to the old school of Key´´s, Clinton´s or Merkel´s. Those elected dictators that did what they considered best for their own minority kind and left the rest hungry in the rain on the streets. You can sail the wind you have, or you can swear at it, ignore it, or fight it, and drift onto the rocks and perish. It is still only a light breeze in New Zealand, but it will come.

    • Zid 13.1

      Wishful thinking Ralf, but you are right, no government is forever, but you will have to wait at least another term

    • Infused 13.2

      I do agree.

    • georgecom 13.3

      may be correct on that. Those who expect Trump is a sail to capture and harness that wind to drive things forward have been sold a lemon. trump is a weather cock blowing round aimlessly in whatever breeze blows his way

  14. Manuka AOR 14

    He is possibly that stupid that the Washington Mandarins will render him pretty inept.

    For just about any work/ position anywhere, certain qualifications are required. Standards are set and must be met. Yet for arguably the most powerful position in the developed “democratic” world, it seems the only requirement is that you can sell yourself, convincingly, to some.

    If he does blow the world up in the next four years, it’s too late then to hold anyone accountable.

    As Obama noted, if DT can’t be trusted with his phone/ twitter account, how can he be trusted to hold the fate of the world in his little hands? Not that he has ever said he cares about the fate of the world.

    edit: if he does blow ‘even more of’ the world up… the M.E. is already part way there

  15. Keith 15

    Climate change is dead in NZ, the fact Paula Bennett’s in charge guarantee’s it and it didn’t take a Donald Trump either.

    And I think you underestimate the mindless violence Clinton would have delivered around the globe. Libya proved that as was her connections to the Saudi’s.

    Having said that I think both candidates were terrible.

  16. save nz 16

    The reality is that globalism is a joke. It is like a giant supercity of Auckland. Instead of diversity, globalism has done the opposite just like the Auckland SuperCity. It is killing individual choice with faceless bureaucrats on fat cat wages, with fat cat cronies devouring peoples money but also increasingly controlling their day to day lives. We now can’t even plant a veggie garden on the berm, park outside your house or whatever. There is a weird dichotomy between deregulation of corporations and government with extreme regulation of people’s lives. People are being surveilled, documented daily. All under a process that is supposed to represent democracy but has been redesigned to wear people down and to disenfranchise people’s choices.

    Voters know this and are trying to stop it at a global level by voter disruption. People want to keep their identity and culture intact what ever that is. Not have every city in the world having the same shops and goods and politicians with policy that helps other politicians but hurts most people in their country and every global citizen in the world to compete with, that their leader cares about just as much or sometimes more if their is a political deal in it.

    As they say on an airline. If we run out of oxygen put your mask on first before you help others. Politicians are so busy helping other politicians and global leaders, under the guise of “helping” the third world and “fighting’ terrorism, ha ha (more like enriching cronies) , they fail to notice it is not the third world ethnicities that are homeless on their local streets, it’s their own people.

    In the USA those people maybe educated and middle class but a pay cheque away from bankruptcy. NZ is close to that too so blathering away about more taxes, losing 6000 jobs for TPPA, and what a wonderful thing globalism is, how technology is the bogyman taking jobs away, unitary plan will solve the housing crisis and everyone who does not agree is a xenophobic NIMBY idiot, is not resonating with some angry voters. Sadly it is not a clear division of what Labour believe in and what National believe in on those issues.

    Have a look on the Natz website and look at images and their ethnic mix. They have cleverly got all the migration voters with their stated migration and sell off policy missing off their website, while subliminally conveying images to their main Pakeha supporters that globalism is not happening in NZ under National. Nothing to see here.

    • Ad 16.1

      New Zealand and Auckland in particular is one of two global benchmarks for effective labour globalisation and ethnic inclusiveness. The only other that comes close is Canada – who have been practicing it since the first Trudeau. And for that reason we are two of the safest societies around.

      • save nz 16.1.1

        I’m sure the voters will be pleased about that AD. sarc. Missing the point as usual. Many people actually just go with gut feeling on politics, not consult politician statistics weekly.

        That’s why the pollsters keep getting it wrong and more importantly if you want to a change of government, Labour keep getting it wrong and don’t even understand National’s strategy of keeping their globalisation strategy under wraps.

        • Ad

          So what was your point again?
          “Globalization is a joke” means what?

          Insert a couple of facts into your writing to assist.

  17. Manuka AOR 17

    Hasn’t the US been putting stooges in place in foreign governments over the years?

    What goes around comes around. Maybe this is American karma.

  18. save nz 18

    Apparently Hillary helped the rise of Trump to power.


    “Other messages published by the whistleblowing organization show how, while the Clinton camp was facilitating the rise of Trump, it was systematically undermining the campaign of Sen. Bernie Sanders, Clinton’s left-wing opponent.

    Leaked emails from the Democratic National Committee show that the organization, which is supposed to be bound to impartiality, sabotaged Sanders’ insurgent presidential campaign, which had mobilized millions of people and inspired a massive grassroots movement.

    Sanders, a self-described Democratic socialist, repeatedly warned in the primary that he would have a greater chance of defeating Trump. Poll after poll showed that he would have beaten Trump in the general election by wide margins. Instead, his candidacy was repressed — and now Clinton has lost to Trump.

    Trump and Clinton were the least popular major-party presidential nominees in U.S. history, according to an August poll. An October report cited Sanders as the most popular political figure in the country.”

    • KJT 18.1

      The Democrats would rather lose than have a mild social democrat in charge.
      Sounds like our Labour caucus.

      • tc 18.1.1

        Sanders threatened the status quo as does corbyn, donald knew thats where the swinging and non voters votes were.

        The donald did what shonky does and told them what they wanted to hear.

        What happens next, the reality so to speak, is highly unlikely to match the rhetoric.

        You want to govern, tell them what they want to hear, dont scare the horses and hammer your opponents weaknesses. Its not hard if you really want it.

    • Colonial Viper 18.2

      Yep. The Clinton campaign and their MSM allies really outsmarted themselves.

      • McFlock 18.2.1

        That would be why Chris Christie looked like his mum had died when he was congratulating trump…

        Republicans have spend twenty years lying, inventing scandals and encouraging the politics of dumb.
        Now they’re affraid they’ll reap what they sow.

  19. TopHat 19

    Scene inside 40% of U.S voting booths yesterday.
    Alone in the booth thoughts are mustered, “eney meanie miney mo …
    Oh hey screw it. Just for shits and giggles, vote Trump, no one else will.
    next minute…

  20. Gosman 20

    Once again I think the left may be missing the lessons from this election.

    It is not inequality but other areas that influenced Trump supporters the most


    • One Anonymous Bloke 20.1

      Right wingers: poison the well for decades then act all offended when the left doesn’t have the antidote.

      • Gosman 20.1.1

        Ummm… who is complaining the left doesn’t have the antidote? I for one am pleased the progressive left seems incapable of understanding the wider electorate in Western nations. It is a joy to watch left wing parties repeatedly banging their political heads against brick walls expecting different outcomes.

  21. Herodotus 21

    Clinton said, “Americans haven’t had a raise in 15 years.” Using inflation-adjusted median household income, she’s right. There has actually been a decline of 7 percent over that period.
    However, earnings of wage and salary workers have risen over that period — by about 2 percent. That’s a tepid increase. But, it is an increase.
    On balance, we rate Clinton’s statement Mostly True.
    After adjusting for inflation, U.S. median household income is still 8 percent lower than it was before the recession, 9 percent lower than at its peak in 1999, and essentially unchanged since the end of the Reagan administration.
    Perhaps voters were voting on micro instead of macro issues. Under the current regime when were the plebs going to experience the results of the current economy? Under Clinton it was status quo .

  22. Peroxide Blonde 22

    Did Clinton loose rather than Trump win?

    Had the Democrats Sanders as its presidential candidate would they have won?
    (or a person with the common touch who did not have a long history as a Washington insider).

    Does anyone recall a “vision of the future” pitch from Clinton that was
    a) not just a contrast with some objectionable stance by Trump
    b) memorable enough for people to discuss it among friends in an animated manner?

    • repateet 22.1

      There were plenty of discussions in an animated manner about “America being great again.” Which suggests (again) that everything is about advertising lines.

      Which is good – because it backs up the reality tv lives, personality cult and transitory style of existences we want.

  23. Bearded Git 23

    Radio NZ just reported Trump did BETTER than Obama in the latino vote. Go figure.

    • weka 23.1

      Go figure what? Trump wasn’t standing against Obama.

      • Colonial Viper 23.1.1

        And he did better than Romney in the african american vote.

        • weka


          • Colonial Viper

            Trump has expanded the Republican demographic base. And as a result, The Republicans now hold the White House, Congress and Senate.

            Trump will also choose the Supreme Court of the next 30 years.

            Is that enough “so” or would you like me to continue?

            • weka

              No, I’d like you to explain in the context of this thread how saying “And he did better than Romney in the african american vote.” is a meaningful response to my original comment and the comment I was replying to.

              • Colonial Viper

                It is a perfectly relevant reply to the original comment of this thread which was

                Radio NZ just reported Trump did BETTER than Obama in the latino vote. Go figure.

              • KJT

                Clinton supporters assumed that Hispanics, women and black people would run from Trump and vote for Clinton.
                In fact there was little change from the previous election in ethnic mix for the republican and democrat candidates.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Only 1% more women turned out overall and while Clinton won the overarching women vote, Trump won white women over to his side gaining 53% of their vote.

                  Clinton’s share of the black vote dropped 5% compared to Obama, Trump picked up two points of that drop, and African American turnout overall was slightly down.

                • weka

                  Thanks KJT. I think some assumptions are being made about the shift in demographics, hence my query about Bearded Git’s comment about Obama. The reasons why people voted the way they did are most likely more complex than being presented by some here.

    • Colonial Viper 23.2

      Trump has smashed the left’s preconceptions of him with this win. Majority of white women voted for him, solid Latino vote, higher African American vote.

      • infused 23.2.1

        shitty media going to be shitty media. like these protests. being fueled by the media.

      • locus 23.2.2

        CV – this election was Hillary versus Donald, not Obama versus Romney

        This election:
        Black vote: 88% supported Hillary
        Hispanics: 65% supported Hillary
        Those earning less than $50,000: 52% supported Hillary
        More than 50% of all those who voted: supported Hillary

        This is no “smashing” win, more an indication of white wealthy conservatives winning the day and imo swallowing a high degree of disgust when they crossed the box for Trump

        but yeah, Obama did a couple of percent better than Hillary when he was up against Romney

  24. Grim 24

    While Hillary was promoting the TTPA as the gold standard, Trump is advocating a return to the gold standard, US dollar backed by gold, and reviewing how the Federal Reserve operates.



    • Colonial Viper 24.1

      It’s impossible for America to return to a gold standard.

      • stunned mullet 24.1.1

        There’s not enough physical gold in the world to do that is there ?

        • Colonial Viper

          Correct. Remember that the US left the gold standard in the first place in order allow unlimited production of new dollars which would not be constrained to the physical existence of gold in stores.

          Also note that Russia and China have built up massive physical gold stocks over the last few years.

  25. rhinocrates 25

    Naomi Klein weighs in:


    Here is what we need to understand: a hell of a lot of people are in pain. Under neoliberal policies of deregulation, privatisation, austerity and corporate trade, their living standards have declined precipitously. They have lost jobs. They have lost pensions. They have lost much of the safety net that used to make these losses less frightening. They see a future for their kids even worse than their precarious present.

    Note the phrase “safety net”. America has a very rudimentary welfare system In times of hardship and soaring inequality, that makes a hell of a difference in people’s attitudes.

    And Tories are trying to cut away the net.

    • Colonial Viper 25.1

      Bill Clinton slashed the US social welfare programme in the 1990s.

    • weka 25.2

      There was an older African American woman on Democracy Now last night talking about when Reagan came into power a whole bunch of stuff just got cut. eg students could no longer get food stamps. One student turned up to get her stamps and was told they don’t exist anymore, see you later. She made some comment about something needing to be done about this, and the next day she got a visit from the FBI and spent half a day in jail.

      Half of what I just said is anecdotal, but I suspect it’s fairly representative of the dynamics that will now unfold, only this time they’ll be on steroids.

      That cutting stuff happened with National in 1990, and we’ve never recovered from that. Trump as anti-dote to neoliberalism, like fuck.

      • rhinocrates 25.2.1

        There was a young lady of Niger
        Who smiled as she rode on a tiger;
        They returned from the ride.
        With the lady inside,
        And the smile on the face of the tiger.

        Tigers are orange… or is the tiger the mob?

      • Colonial Viper 25.2.2

        weka if you think that Trump is a neoliberal benefits and services cutter you really have zero idea of what he has just done to the Republican Party.

        • rhinocrates

          Weka suggests nothing of the sort. People other than neoliberals can cut benefits and services. It’s easy to do if you’re the sort of person who divides society into “winners” and “losers”.

        • weka

          Are you saying that you think there won’t be cuts during Trump’s presidency?

          • Colonial Viper

            Trump is going to spend big because Trump understands that the US issues the reserve currency of the world.

            • Lanthanide

              He’s going to increase economic growth to 4-5%, apparently.

              Except he has no credible plan for how this will happen.

              When it fails, he won’t be able to keep all of the services he promised not to touch, and cut all the taxes he promised to cut.

              You know, if Trump really was the messiah and had credible policies that would do what he claimed, I would have supported him. I’m sure everyone would have. Unfortunately reality isn’t as simple as Trump made out and his supporters apparently believe.

              • Colonial Viper

                Sure Trump has no credible plan for economic growth and won anyway. Awesome. BTW I don’t think he gives a shit about what the disastrous economics profession and commentariat thinks of him.

                • Lanthanide

                  “BTW I don’t think he gives a shit about what the disastrous economics profession and commentariat thinks of him.”

                  No, but he might care what the American public thinks about him in 4 years. Or less.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    It seems that they don’t care what mainstream economists and economics commentators think either.

                    • Lanthanide

                      No, they vote on what is personally affecting them. Trump promised he’d give their jobs back, cut taxes for everyone, not cut services, replace Obamacare with something better, deport all the illegals and bring growth up to 4-5% and not increase the deficit.

                      Pretty tall order.

                      Clinton, meanwhile, didn’t promise things she can’t deliver.

              • Richard Rawshark

                I agree Lant, I would add

                Instead they gave a big middle finger to all the polies before them that said they could do that, and we all know Donald won’t either, we suddenly realized, they talk some .., shit. What’s the point anymore it’s just spin. Lets , just elect some bugger that’s stuff the whole thing up..

                and many other reasons, there is never one reason and some will be genuine in their belief he was the messiah..

                The rest of us are sick of the spin.., so to speak. So FU Washington..etc

            • Scott

              I can understand those that mistook him for an agent of change.

              I can understand those that just wanted to register a protest.

              I can understand those that fell for his slogans.

              I can understand those that just hated Clinton more.

              But you like his “policies”? No CV, no, that is just stupid.

              • Colonial Viper

                Especially his policy of working with Russia and China to de-escalate military tensions. Very smart.

                • Scott

                  That is not a policy. That is an aspiration. A slogan for people to fall for.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    It is what it is. If you liked Hillary’s policies better you should have voted for her.

                • Lanthanide

                  Yip, because everyone else has a policy of deliberating increasing tensions 🙄

                • Stuart Munro

                  Nah. Putin flattered him – food of fools.

                  The US will fold in the face of Russian expansionism now – horror story for those with borders nearby.

                  • locus

                    i hope to hell Donald doesn’t have to negotiate anything that affects the rest of the world with Putin. Putin will eat him for breakfast

                    Hillary was a shining light of brilliance in comparison to Trump in the presidential debates

                • Richard Rawshark

                  and his policy to tell industry, you move your business to a cheap labour country or outside the USA even, i’ll slap a 35% tariff on you..

                  perfect policy..in a FU kind of way back at them for the common man.

                  I appreciated that. I don’t even live in the states!

              • Lanthanide


            • weka

              “Trump is going to spend big because Trump understands that the US issues the reserve currency of the world.”

              I’ll take that to mean yes in answer to my question “Are you saying that you think there won’t be cuts during Trump’s presidency?”.

    • Gosman 25.3

      Except that doesn’t look like what they voted for.

      • rhinocrates 25.3.1

        They didn’t vote for a safety net (which was promised by no-one who counted), they voted in the absence of one.

  26. Mrs Brillo 26

    New Zealanders need not feel so superior.

    People with a comic book derived understanding of the world vote in domineering blowhards with a lot of money, because they see them as Superman who will deal to their enemies with a punch in the face. Superheroes and despots are easily confused, by the easily confused.

    This will not end well. In either country.

  27. rhinocrates 27

    Interesting… quite an age split in votes, with the 18-25 group overwhelmingly in favour of Clinton or against Trump.


  28. Michael 28

    This is what happens when progressive politics fails to provide a plausible alternative to neoliberalism: the proletariat pick a tyrant to defend them from oligarchy, I hope our Labour Party takes note but doubt that it will.

    • rhinocrates 28.1

      The most common reaction to a crisis is to treat it as an affirmation of one’s existing practices. Labour tends to epitomise this.

      “We have sacrificed virgins to the volcano (thrown beneficiaries under the bus) and the harvest did not come. Clearly we must throw MORE virgins into the volcano!”

    • One Anonymous Bloke 28.2

      Is it? Are you sure that this isn’t what happens when right wingers poison the well of public discourse for decades? Blaming the Left for not having the antidote seems odd, if you ask me.

      By the same logic would you blame Dr. Mike Joy for the state of the waterways?

      • gsays 28.2.1

        hi oab,
        yes, perverse logic.

        “when you are headed to grave, don’t blame the hearse,
        you are like a little girl yelling at her brother because you lost his ball.”
        jack white say’s it better in this charming ditty:

  29. Well Fed Weta 29

    MS…you forgot to mention:

    1. Hillary’s complicity in Bill’s sexual abuse of young women.
    2. Hillary’s own attacks on those women who called Bill out.
    3. Hillary’s trail of corruption (not ‘small scale’).

    I’m as worried about Trump as the next person, but let’s not fool ourselves about Hillary being any better. She isn’t.

    • Richard Rawshark 29.1

      Yep just the same as your mate John

      With a sexual motive pulls a waitresses pony tail repeatedly even when asked to stop
      Uses his government might to shut her down
      John’s trail of corruption and lies is far longer.

  30. Scott 30

    We know trump is going to be a great president, he told us so and he is the greatest predictor of greatness that God ever gave great greatness to. Bigly. Panic not.

    I think there are two lessons from the US election.

    1. Sentiment trumped substance. He had no substance at all. Lied more than he spoke facts – the “post-truth” election. He stood on a platform of changing the establishment, while being the representative of the party that is the establishment (both Congress and Senate). What change will be make in that regard? Token at most I expect, more likely none at all.

    2. Polls under-rate people that the media tell us it is not okay to like. I thought that this effect was being overstated, and Brexit was an aberration, but it does seem real. In NZ it might explain why the Greens (a very PC-choice) never seem to live up to their pre-election polling while the likes of Winston usually do better than polls suggest. Something to keep in mind.

    • weka 30.1

      Do you mean the media tell people that the Greens are naff, and so they don’t vote for them?

      • Sacha 30.1.1

        and folk tell pollsters what makes them seem better people. Greens trump Winston on that front.

      • Scott 30.1.2

        No, I mean the media paint the Greens in a good light, so some people virtue signal by saying they will vote for them. But when push comes to shove, they don’t.

        Conversely, the media paint Winston in a bad light (justifiably so, it being accurate and all). So some people are reluctant to say they are going to vote for him – they are a little bit ashamed of it maybe.

  31. Richard Rawshark 31

    America’s thought, long and hard, and they decided, lets burn the place down.


  32. joe90 32

    Good thing Clinton wasn’t elected, she might have appointed a Goldman Sachs exec to head Treasu… oh wait…

    People close to Mr. Trump have said he is considering Steven Mnuchin, a former Goldman Sachs Group Inc. banker who became his national campaign finance chairman in May, as his pick for Treasury secretary. If tapped for the job, Mr. Mnuchin would become the third Goldman alumnus in the last 20 years to head the Treasury, following Robert Rubin and Hank Paulson, who both served as the bank’s chief executive.


    • Scott 32.1

      Draining the swamp, so that he can repopulate it with his choice of crocodile.

      How long will it take Americans to figure out they have been sold a pack of lies? Will they care?

  33. Colonial Viper 33

    Glamorous talented new first-lady elect sets records

    Melania Trump brings poise and glamour to the presidency of her husband Donald Trump, and will become America’s first foreign-born first lady in two centuries.

    Elegant with a dazzling smile, the 46-year-old native Slovenian was at her husband’s side in New York early Wednesday when he declared victory — a discreet source of support, out of the camera frame.


  34. joe90 34

    Another Operation Hummingbird in the works?.

    Donald Trump surrogate and former “Apprentice” star Omarosa Manigault said that the Republican nominee would keep a list of his fellow party members who voted against him.

    “It’s so great our enemies are making themselves clear so that when we get in to the White House, we know where we stand,” she told the Independent Journal Review at Trump’s election night party in Manhattan.


    • Colonial Viper 34.1

      Oh it’s very simple to sort out, these congressmen and senators should just chat to Trump and pledge their support.

      • Lanthanide 34.1.1

        Everyone should bow to the fuhrer.

        • Colonial Viper

          I have no idea why you have lost your rational mind like this.

          • Lanthanide

            Hint: he’s behaving like a dictator and hasn’t even taken office yet.

            • Colonial Viper

              Even if that were true which it ain’t, there are lots of dictators/strong man leaders in the world who ain’t anything like Adolf Hitler.

              You’ve got brains why don’t you use them instead of Godwinning.

            • mauī

              Let’s not talk about the other candidate’s links to real middle east dictatorships.

        • infused

          If I had a whole bunch of people against me, i’d sideline them too. Wait… where have I seen that before…

    • Scott 34.2

      In four years time (if not much less) they may discover that being an anti-Trump Republican is a handy thing. I suspect in years to come we’ll hear plenty of people saying “I’m an actual Republican, always have been, that is why I didn’t support President Trump’s candidacy”. In the meantime, I think she over-estimates how much influence Trump will have as president.

      If I were a Republican senator or congressman, I don’t think I’d be too unhappy to be on her list.

      • Lanthanide 34.2.1

        Hopefully they should have the strength of their convictions (and morals). Stand up for what they believe in, and if ultimately the public don’t want that, well at least they didn’t whore themselves out and stood by their principles.

        • Colonial Viper

          You want the more extreme neocon/neoliberal Republicans in the senate and congress to stand firm and to stand against Trump’s working class, blue collar, populist agenda?

          More clever politics from the liberal left.

          • Lanthanide

            If his policies are bad for the country (and they are), yes.

            • Colonial Viper

              43M Americans today are classed as living in poverty. 1M more for every year of Obama’s administration.

              Mark my words, the Trump Movement of the Republican party could be the new left wing movement of the USA, and could make the Democrats irrelevant for the next 20 years.

              • Lanthanide

                Ok, I guess we’ll just have to wait and see then. You’re very convinced Trump is the messiah, despite him not actually having any record of success in government, and apparently willing to stock his cabinet with such luminaries as his children, Sarah Palin and Ben Carson.

                • Colonial Viper

                  “You’re very convinced Trump is the messiah”

                  Geeezus fraking chris, wtf. I see Trump as a massive game changer.

                  But he’s very human, the campaign revealed that warts and all.

              • 43M Americans today are classed as living in poverty. 1M more for every year of Obama’s administration.

                Well, duh. What’s not obvious is why you’ve developed this bizarre belief that a guy who’s spent his career getting rich out of stiffing his employees and creditors might be interested in alleviating that situation.

                • Colonial Viper

                  It’s a very reasonable belief. Trump cares about ordinary working Americans.

                  And he finally got sufficiently tired of how shite both Republicans and Democrats have treated the working class and the fast shrinking middle class, that he decided to do something about it personally.

                  What’s not obvious is why you’ve developed this bizarre belief that a guy who’s spent his career getting rich out of stiffing his employees and creditors might be interested in alleviating that situation.

                  He’s a capitalist. Shock surprise eh. That’s just typical business practice when he feels like he doesn’t want or need to give over more than he needs to as a private sector business owner.

                  • Trump cares about ordinary working Americans.

                    As long as they don’t work for him, or what?

                    That’s just typical business practice…

                    Not paying your creditors is typical business practice? I’ll grant you, for Trump it is, but most business owners do actually pay their bills.

  35. joe90 35

    pledge their support.


    Ich schwöre: Ich werde dem Führer des Deutschen Reiches und Volkes Adolf Hitler treu und gehorsam sein, die Gesetze beachten, und meine Amtspflichten gewissenhaft erfüllen, so wahr mir Gott helfe.

    • Colonial Viper 35.1

      Is Godwins left right and centre is all the left has remaining.

      Fox News: the election of Donald Trump is a direct repudiation of Barack Obama’s presidency and leaves major planks of Obama’s legacy in tatters about to be repealed.

  36. joe90 36

    Of course the tiny fisted fascist has since changed his tune,

    The electoral college is a disaster for a democracy.— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 7, 2012

    • Colonial Viper 36.1

      He was right then and he is still right today.

      Meanwhile. Massive protests against fascist, racist, bigot Trump in multiple cities all around the USA. Some protest activity has been described as rioting.

      Latest reports include shootings and injuries.

      IMO this is a result of the Clinton campaign’s very effective demonisation and villification campaign of Trump as the new Hitler, which so many lefties have fallen for.




      • Lanthanide 36.1.1

        Hey, if Trump’s victory and control of the government benches actually allowed him to get rid of the electoral college (which no establishment candidate would seriously try to do), then he would have achieved something truly worth having

        • Colonial Viper

          You would need an extremely rare constitutional convention of the states to do this and I can’t see any way that this would happen.

          • Lanthanide

            No convention required, just an amendment to the constitution.

            • Colonial Viper

              Have you reviewed the Article V requirements of actually doing that though???

              • Lanthanide

                If Trump is serious about “draining the swamp”, then he should do this, or something equally as braggadocios.

                At the end of his 100 days, he can say:
                “America, do you want to get rid of the electoral collage system and just judge elections on the popular vote? I know you Hillary supporters do. So that is what I am proposing – lets come together as a country, and get rid of this antiquated system.

                Now to do this, we need to get enough people in congress and the senate to support it, and then enough people in state legislatures to also ratify it. But we, the American people, have the power to do this! Write to your congressman, your senator, your state legislature, urge them to support this amendment. And you know what? Anyone who won’t support it, well, we the people have the power to vote them out in 2018 and replace them with people who will support the amendment. And if we don’t get enough support then, we can vote the rest of them out in 2020 and then do it!”.

                I think *thats* how you “bring the country together” – by actually proposing a change to the constitution that affects everyone.

                The establishment like the electoral college system, but the public generally don’t. So this is his chance to prove that he’s serious about reform and won’t kow-tow to the establishment.

                • Colonial Viper

                  He never campaigned on eliminating the electoral college so I do not think he will go down this road. Further a large number of states who are currently overweighted in the current electoral college system, will never agree to the proposal.

                  • Lanthanide

                    Yes, he just campaigned on things that are even more difficult than a constitutional amendment.

                    He wants to make America great again. That doesn’t mean he’ll only do things that he campaigned on – no president lives by that sort of straight jacket. And if he does implement all the things he campaigned on, America will definitely not be great again.

                    “Further a large number of states who are currently overweighted in the current electoral college system, will never agree to the proposal.”

                    If the public want the amendment, they have the power to vote in officials who will pass it. They just need leadership.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      That’s what I am trying to tell you. No one is interested in a constitutional amendment. Not the Democrats, not the Republicans, not the public, not the President Elect.

                    • Lanthanide

                      Er, actually quite a lot of people in the US don’t like the electoral college system.

                      I’d suggest the plurality who voted for Clinton, for example. And of course turnout would be higher if everyone knew their vote was just as valuable as everyone else’s.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      You suggest that quite a few people want change in the electoral college system? I never heard it come up in any of the debates or in any of the stump speeches.

                      It’s going to be a low priority for spending political capital on.

                    • Lanthanide

                      CV, who is it that gives the stump speeches and speaks in the debates?

                      Could it be, the political classes?

                      Could it be, that the political classes don’t always do or discuss what the public actually want them to do and discuss? I would have thought you understood this, since you’re such a Trump supporter.

                    • Lanthanide

                      According to the National Archives, there have been more proposed constitutional amendments to change the Electoral College than any other topic (700 proposals in Congress in the last 200 years!). Gallup reports that only about a third of Americans support keeping the institution.


                    • Lanthanide

                      He released a list of things to do in his first 100 days in October, and this was his #1 item:

                      FIRST, propose a Constitutional Amendment to impose term limits on all members of Congress;

                      So, like I said, if he wants to “drain the swamp” he needs to do something splashy to prove he means it. Term limits on congressmen isn’t really very interesting though – they already have to face elections and if they’re not wanted, they’re voted out.

                      Also you seem to think it would cost political capital to go against the electoral college – no, he’d generate political capital from this, by getting the majority of the country to support him.

      • Richard Rawshark 36.1.2

        Did you see Clintons speech, alarm bells in me rang, within hours rioting.

        Listen to her words and repeated calls for unity and non violence…

        the mannerisms and body language told a completely different story..

        and her emphasising the same point several times, including references to how their constitution was based on the peaceful transfer of power..

        the peaceful transfer of power, eh Mrs Clinton..

        you are the Antichrist.

        • Colonial Viper

          I wouldn’t describe her as the anti-christ, but she has set up the moral framework for her left wing acolytes to justify disrupting the streets and attacking with violence.

          We (the world) is very lucky that she did not get in.

          • marty mars

            I think it is just people who are expressing their opinion. Worse would have happened if the election went the other way. I don’t condone violence and i can understand it.

            • Richard Rawshark

              I have never heard a candidate go on about a peaceful transfer of power, but no doubt could be corrected, in resent times however?

              then you watch the speech a few times, see if by me saying that you can spot, the little jibes leading up about how we should be inclusive and labelling different racial groups, then look at the lady herself, the face eyes, and mannerisms..

              These are carefully chosen words and if her intent was to say hey, handle it, she hasn’t realized it can do the opposite too. IMHO it has.

              • Colonial Viper

                Clinton and her speech writing staff know exactly what they are doing.

                But get this: if she has stirred up mass protests (both peaceful and violent) she has actually given Barack Obama a massive management headache. He is the guy who has to deal with any fallout eg lethal law enforcement incidents.

                So in fact, Clinton is also getting back at Obama.

                • Lanthanide

                  Um, no, Trump stirred up the protests.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Only in part. Clinton deliberately and cynically demonised him as part of her campaign strategy, thereby giving her supporters moral cover to bully, and even become violent against Trump supporters.

                    • Lanthanide

                      Yip, people need “moral cover” in order to call out a bullying, misogynistic, raciest creep for what he is 🙄

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Lefties need to learn that your clever sneer names for people you don’t like are really not as powerful as you think they are.

                      The white working class in the rustbelt states figured it out. Maybe you can too.

                    • Lanthanide

                      Those aren’t “clever sneer names”.

                      I’m sorry for you that you don’t understand that.

                • What a load of dribble cv – your hatred of Clinton has twisted you and you seem to like it.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    I think my analysis is right. Just like yourself and many others here on The Standard – you feel like it is your moral right – actually your moral duty – to personally attack Trump supporters.

                    Just look in the mirror to see how you have fallen for her spell.

                    • By your words are you known and you are proud of that – hell you’d probaby go shriveled if lefties didn’t counter your right wing slogans. Don’t pretend, be proud of your support of dangerousdon – you’re suited to each other imo.

                    • Colonial Viper


                • joe90

                  if she has stirred up mass protests

                  Four years ago the tiny fisted fascist called for exactly that.

                  For anyone questioning #TrumpProtest… this is *literally* what Trump called for in '12 when he mistakenly thought Romney won pop. vote. pic.twitter.com/7VjzmPlDE7— Spinoza (@azon1ps) November 10, 2016

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Except this time Clinton supporters are actually causing violence and rioting.

                    Not just tweeting about it.

                    • Lanthanide

                      Yeah, we get it, you don’t actually care what Trump says, you’ll just project your own imaginary version onto him so you can sleep at night.

          • Richard Rawshark

            said for effect CV not belief, I have a weird style of writing, half irony, half point to be made, and the rest is embellishment and wit..


            But never ever take my word literally, I write to make you think of what I am saying.

            and I don’t do math. much good.

        • infused

          I noticed that, but didn’t take much notice until now. rookie mistake on my part.

        • Psycho Milt

          Listen to her words and repeated calls for unity and non violence…

          the mannerisms and body language told a completely different story..

          Oh, the perfidy of women! There she goes, stirring up dissension and violence by calling for a peaceful transfer of power! A plan so cunning you could pin a tail on it and call it a weasel!

          • Richard Rawshark

            Taken out of context, then a shit attempt to deflect it to a personal attack on her as she’s a woman.

            and pulling two lines out of a comment to frame your shit is a perfect example of that.

            And as far from being sexist as could be, had been a man, mannerisms and intent being the same, I would have said exactly the same.

        • locus

          – i think you are reading too much into things Richard. I think Hillary was speaking the truth and meant what she said

          As for protests, I think think these were spontaneous shows of the passion that has imbued much of this election, and were led by people who now have a lot to fear from Trump and regressive illiberal Republicanism

          • weka

            +1 re the protests.

            It’s sad but not surprising to see the same kinds of mistruths being run here as before the election.

  37. joe90 37

    White America takes back it’s country.


    Black voters anticipated an era under Mr. Trump in which intolerance would become acceptable.


    On the morning after the vote, many said they felt more vulnerable, just because of what they looked like”


    “It feels like he’s normalized discrimination, and I’m afraid it’s open season.”


    • Colonial Viper 37.1

      Except in reality, Trump performed similarly or better than Romney with blacks and Latinos.

      • Lanthanide 37.1.1

        Yip, I’m sure that will be a great comeback to personal, and institutional, racial abuse and discrimination that these people face over the next 4 years.

        Do you even read and understand the comments you’re replying to?

        • Colonial Viper

          Keep making up your dystopian fantasies Lanth. They are fuelling sometimes violent anti-Trump protests throughout the US.

          • Lanthanide

            Right, racial abuse is a fantasy. Uh huh.

          • McFlock

            this from the guy who’s spent a year cheerleading the demagogue who offered to pay the legal fees of anyone who thumped a peaceful protestor, and suggested his opponent should be shot if she won.

            • Colonial Viper

              who offered to pay the legal fees of anyone who thumped a peaceful protestor

              Project Veritas confirmed that the DNC was working with and paying field organisations to send people into Trump rallies to deliberately provoke violence in order to generate negative news stories about Trump.

              this from the guy who’s spent a year cheerleading the demagogue

              Clinton has the blood of hundreds of thousands on her hands, all for the pursuit of political kudos. Trump was not only the right choice, but also the moral choice.

              • He was not the moral choice whatever you may spin.

                • Colonial Viper

                  He definitely was the moral, if defective, choice.

                  Clinton, a corrupt, neocon globalist and destroyer of both Syria and Libya, who with her actions directly and indirectly caused a massive multi-million person refugee tsunami entering Europe.

                  • Jeepers I thought you thought she was a sick granny who couldn’t take 2 steps without support. She’s not Godzilla mate, and it wasn’t a single person that caused those things. She may bear some responsibility as many do but your rhetoric is over the top.

              • McFlock

                There’s a difference between letting someone be themselves and actually offering to pay their expenses incurred in beating someone up.

                If half of trump’s foreign policy is implemented, he’ll have the irradiated bloodof millions on his hands. As it is, he’ll probably abandon policy to pence, so he’ll have the blood of thousandsof women denied medical care on his hands.

        • BM

          I’d expect to see quite a lot of internal migration from the red states to the blue states.

          Life is about to become quite uncomfortable for a lot of innocent people.

          • Colonial Viper

            I’d expect to see quite a lot of internal migration from the red states to the blue states.

            That’s not how it works. Look at a county by county map of the election results. Most “blue states” actually have a huge number of red (more rural) counties.

            • Sacha

              purple reign.

            • billmurray

              Well done in standing by your for-cast in the last few months or so that it would be a Donald Trump win.
              I do not know of any other pundit who picked the result.
              You were given some unwarranted ribbing. I see you still are.
              Give it a rest you guys he for-cast the winner non of you did, neither did I.
              I listen to most of what you say and do agree with you most times.
              I am just coming out of the shock of the DT victory and my thoughts are, if the American pollsters got it so wrong, how do we know our own pollsters are not falling into the same traps.
              Brexit also stumped the majority of the British pollsters.

              Feeling better to-day about the SHOCK but the vodka is helping, all the best.

              • Colonial Viper

                cheers billmurray, a good evening to you too.

                American pollsters got it so wrong, how do we know our own pollsters are not falling into the same traps.

                exactly. And not just the pollsters – but our establishment politicians and our establishment commentariat too.

      • Gabby 37.1.2

        That’s not saying much.

      • locus 37.1.3

        please stop with this false comparison CV. Hillary performed massively better than Trump with Blacks and Latinos…

        and it’s belittling and patronising to suggest that many of the people with these ethnic backgrounds have nothing to fear given the language used by Donald and his followers over the past few months

  38. mac1 38



    In 2008, Joe Bageant’s book on the underclass in America, “Deer Hunting with Jesus”, I believe gives explanations for what happened in America in this last few months.

    The above two references are there for those who can’t be stuffed reading the book. I’ve written on this book before on the Standard. If Joe Bageant were still alive, yesterday he could have said “I told you so.”

    • joe90 38.1

      I can’t recall whether or not I’ve posted this before but anyhoo, Bageant’s essays.


      • mac1 38.1.1

        Thanks, joe90.

        One essay begins, “How about them political elites, huh? Five million bucks for Chelsea Clinton’s wedding, 15K just to rent the air-conditioned shitters — huge chrome and glass babies with hot water and everything. No gas masks and waxy little squares of toilet paper for those guys.”


        Later on he writes,”Meanwhile, there are the rest of us. That great throng of squawking, family loving folks, professionals and peasants alike, libertarians, patriots, people who worship god and those who loath religion — people who still believe that hard work is the road to success despite the evidence, people who know differently because they sell used cars or work for the US Post Office — citizens who rightfully suspect that government taxes merely feed the beast, or who believe, again rightly, that no politician truly represents their interests, and that the government is now in the business of social engineering for economic purposes. Fundamentalist Christians, gays, small businessmen, Hispanic Americans, organic farmers, pro-lifers and abortion supporters, union workers in the North and Southern anti-unionists, school teachers and stump preachers — we all feel threatened by our government.”

        2010 foreshadowing 2016?

  39. Jenny 39

    Trump and Standing Rock

    Trump’s financial disclosure forms show he invested in Energy Transfer Partners, operators of the controversial pipeline, and its CEO donated to his campaign

    Incoming President Trump may be tempted to go down the Basha Assad route against the Sioux Nation and their supporters who have gathered at Standing Rock to prevent the construction of the Dakota Access Pipe Line.

    To prevent this possibility and for evironmental and social justice reasons, Obama needs to act and act now, to stop the North Dakota Access Pipe line. And unflinchingly tell the American people why.

    Trump has signaled his opposition to any restrictions on the development of oil, coal or gas, telling a crowd in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, last week that he would “lift the Obama-Clinton roadblocks to allow these vital energy infrastructure projects to go ahead”.
    “We have roadblocks like you’ve never, ever seen – environmental blocks, structural blocks,” he said. “We are going to allow the Keystone pipeline and so many other things to move forwards. Tremendous numbers of jobs and good for our country.”

    • joe90 39.1

      Politico says the tiny fisted fascist is considering Sarah ‘drill baby, drill’ Palin for Interior Secretary.

      Meanwhile, a person who spoke to the Trump campaign told POLITICO that the aides have also discussed tapping Sarah Palin for Interior secretary. Trump has said he’d like to put Palin in his cabinet, and Palin has made no secret of her interest.


      • Richard Rawshark 39.1.1

        The lunatics are in charge of the asylum.


        • joe90

          I thought you were going to stay away from this here weirdo.

          • Richard Rawshark

            Only when you bring up wierdo cults.. and then people bring up tinfoil hat cults to argue there cult has more belief, then the other totally wacko cult you started with.

            it becomes like a Trump Hillary election which pile of weird shall I pick.

        • billmurray

          Richard Rawshark,
          there are rumours the he intends to make Palin spokesperson of the GOP and foreign secretary.
          Trump says he wants Palin as the USA needs someone who can articulate USA policies clearly so that everyone understands them.

          Sounds fair enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

          • Richard Rawshark

            Hence lunatics asylum analogy, did you not hear the irony in my letters.

            the big swindle begins, it took oh, 8 hours to go from hero to zero.. as I figured it would. It’s playing out exactly as I suspected.

            he promises the world, the people give a big FU to the government they believed he would disassemble and fix.

            he gets in..it’s more of the same..

            It’ll wheedle on awhile until it’s really starting to bite into people, everyone will turn on him, and the world of the USA will implode into shootings and anarchy.

            as for you Joe90, on topic.. mate, all good.

            plus I forgot your a reg, a weirdo reg, but a reg. sorry, my bad 🙂

      • joe90 39.1.2

        Palin at her unhinged best.


  40. joe90 40

    Oh look, Dubya’s neocon warmonger John Bolton may yet get his chance to to be right and bomb baby, bomb Iran.

    Secretary of state

    Former House Speaker Gingrich, a leading Trump supporter, is a candidate for the job, as is Corker, current chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. The Tennessee senator has said he’d “strongly consider” serving as secretary of state.

    Trump is also eyeing former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton..


  41. johnm 41

    You’re an imbecile Micky Savage. It’s time you removed your head from your NZ ahole! I don’t hold out much hope. sadly 🙁

    • johnm 41.1

      Afewknowthetruth says:
      November 10, 2016 at 6:18 pm

      ‘To hope for a better future. Actually, to save capitalism from itself: to manage boom/bust cycles and to set boundaries so that competition benefits all stakeholders, without pillaging our planet.’

      This is just plain silly, David: the economic system demands pillaging ‘our planet’ (not that it’s ‘ours’ anyway; we are just temporary passengers on it, sharing it with millions of other species at the moment and in the process of annihilating most of them, and to suggest that the planet is ‘ours’ is exceedingly anthropocentric).

      The globalized industrial economic system cannot operate without pillaging the Earth. Nor can the globalized industrial economic system operate without severely polluting the Earth and overheating it -very likely to the point of causing the biggest mass extinction event in the Earth’s entire history in a matter of decades.

      Capitalism cannot be saved from itself because capitalism is a system based on fraud, and is a subset of industrialism, and, as already pointed out, is totally dependent on looting and polluting the Earth.

      It naturally follows that there cannot be a ‘better future’, so there is no point in hoping for one: everything that matters is guaranteed to be made worse by the capitalist [industrial] system.

      Rather than hoping (which Derrick Jensen points out is looking for an outcome when one has no agency) we could attempt to make the future less bad; but ‘no one’ even wants to do that! So we continue, collectively, to make the future worse faster.

      With respect to Trump becoming president, the Saker makes more sense than most commentators:

      ‘So it has happened: Hillary did not win! I say that instead of saying that “Trump won” because I consider the former even more important than the latter. Why? Because I have no idea whatsoever what Trump will do next. I do, however, have an excellent idea of what Hillary would have done: war with Russia. Trump most likely won’t do that. In fact, he specifically said in his acceptance speech:

      I want to tell the world community that while we will always put America’s interests first, we will deal fairly with everyone, with everyone — all people and all other nations. We will seek common ground, not hostility; partnership, not conflict.

      And Putin’s reply was immediate:

      We heard the statements he made as candidate for president expressing a desire to restore relations between our countries. We realise and understand that this will not be an easy road given the level to which our relations have degraded today, regrettably. But, as I have said before, it is not Russia’s fault that our relations with the United States have reached this point.

      Russia is ready to and seeks a return to full-format relations with the United States. Let me say again, we know that this will not be easy, but are ready to take this road, take steps on our side and do all we can to set Russian-US relations back on a stable development track.
      This would benefit both the Russian and American peoples and would have a positive impact on the general climate in international affairs, given the particular responsibility that Russia and the US share for maintaining global stability and security.

      This exchange, right there, is enough of a reason for the entire planet to rejoice at the defeat of Hillary and the victory of Trump.’


      By the way, ‘the markets’ seem to love Trump and are surging. Aussie up over 3%, Japan up over 6% today. (Totally unsustainable, of course).

      • locus 41.1.1

        apart from the completely uncalled-for abuse of a respected writer, your comment belies a lack of understanding of what Trump’s make America great again denial of climate change nuclear sabre rattling attitudes might mean for the world

    • Anne 41.2

      I hope a moderator is around. I take offence at the above idiotic statement about a well regarded author.

  42. joe90 42

    And the tiny fisted fascist reckons he’s going to legally deport millions.

    TRAC, Nov. 9, 2016 – “The latest Immigration Court data show the growth in the court’s crushing backlog of cases continued through the first month of FY 2017. During the month of October, the court’s backlog rose by 5,645 cases, and reached 521,676


    In terms of wait times, Colorado led the nation. In that state pending cases had been waiting an average of 1,008 days. Because wait times do not include how many more days must pass before a hearing is scheduled before an immigration judge, total effective wait times before these cases are actually decided will be much longer than even these averages reflect.


    • Richard Rawshark 42.1

      next he’ll hire Duke as his .. military advisor….!


      or am I?

      • Colonial Viper 42.1.1

        He’ll likely be taking the advice of Generals Flynn and Kellogg on who should be the new SecDef.

      • billmurray 42.1.2

        Richard Rawshark,
        If the Donald is going to have Sarah Palin as his Foreign Secretary why not have Duke as his military advisor.
        What about Chris Christie as his transport Chief?.

        All looks good to me.

        • Richard Rawshark

          You know what Duke, I shouldn’t even use capitals “dick” i’m talking about? .., I shall call him dick from hence forth.

          I was really really being sarcastic as fuck there man.

          The KKK wanker came out though and said if not for him Trump wouldn’t have won

          if he formulates any crazy ass government like that, and I lived there, i’d be packing heat and on a mission to save the world.

        • Richard Rawshark

          Duke I know definitely who he is and represents, Christie I know nothing about. name is all.

          Either fill me in or i’ll do some research later.

    • Colonial Viper 42.2

      I suspect that Trump will be ejecting several thousand hardcore repeat-offending illegal alien criminals first up.

      • marty mars 42.2.1

        and their families?

        • Colonial Viper

          I presume if they are legal then they can stay; if not they’ll join an immigration process for being deported or appealing to stay/gain legal status.

        • Anne

          He announced a few hours ago the removal of all Climate Change financial contributions will be one of his first priorities and the money will be spent on “infrastructure”. I wonder what he regards as infrastructure. Lots n lots n lots of oil wells?

          He is a godforsaken moron.

          • Colonial Viper

            You may disagree with his politics and his priorities, but a moron he is not.

            BTW amongst his top priorities will be removing all of Obama’s executive order handbrakes on the coal industry.

            • Anne

              Hitler was fundamentally… an horrendously dangerous maniacal moron and so is Trump.

              • Colonial Viper

                Continue to underestimate Trump if you wish.

                • Leftie

                  It’s the opposite. Don’t think Anne is underestimating Trump at all.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    He beat the best candidate the Democrats could put up, used far less money to do it, played a far smarter game, disabled the power of identity politics based sneering, and helped the Republicans lock the Democrats out of the legislature.

                    An amazing political feat.

                    • Just like that other moran last century.

                    • Macro

                      yes we acknowledge that CV – we just don’t underestimate his character – an horrendously dangerous maniacal moron.

                    • Leftie

                      Trump is smart con man, but what has that got to do with people not underestimating him?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Macro – don’t you understand the importance of correctly and accurately assessing your enemies?

                      Leftie – the Democrats opened the door wide open for Trump to walk through. Don’t blame him; take responsibility.

                    • Leftie

                      Take responsibility for what? How is calling Trump a smart con man, which he is, (he has form), “blaming him”?

            • Macro

              Have you lost all your rationality as well CV?

              Have you not a care about AGW anymore?

              I can recall you arguing very strongly for action on cutting emissions – was that all just hot air?

              This man has just announced the trashing of 25+years of hard negotiation between all countries of the world, and finally an action plan that with an ounce of luck might have mitigated catastrophic climate change, and here he is, now proposing to rip, shit, and bust the planet!
              As for the native americans…. well their country has just gotten a whole lot sadder place for them. But of course you would have no consideration or sentiment for them.

              • Colonial Viper

                The Paris climate agreement is a farce and Trump knows it. So ditch it.

                BTW you can tell it was a farce if you pay attention. Like the 1.5 deg C target which was pure PR. And at the moment our world is already at 1.2 to 1.3 deg C warming.

                And as I have said before, there isn’t even 5ppm CO2 difference between Clinton and Trump.

                • Leftie

                  What about the Sioux Indians?

                  • Colonial Viper

                    I don’t know anything about their issues with Trump I’m afraid.

                    • Macro

                      He has money in the pipeline
                      You really ought to know about that!
                      The man has vested interests and should remove himself from any dealings with regard to this “venture” yet he is on record as saying that the pipeline will proceed. The man wouldn’t know a moral principle if he fell over one.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      And maybe Obama will pardon those pipeline protest documentary makers who are facing 45 years worth of federal charges.

                      Don’t count on it.

                    • Macro

                      So you don’t give a shit then about the Sioux or Climate Change – or for that matter Social Justice.

                    • Leftie

                      You don’t know about the protests at Standing Rock and the fight to protect their water? Weka has posted 2 articles on it on TS.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Haven’t followed it, sorry. BTW why does Obama not resolve it before he leaves office?

                    • I said you were a fake cv for ages and you confirm it. A climate change bullshit artist and liar. You and your fucken 5ppm. What a pathetic you are

                • Macro

                  Oh FFS! it was a start! and no it is not a farce if you were able to understand it. Why is it not a farce? because for the first time the world was able to agree – as a whole – (and it had taken 25 years to get the US to a position to agree on this) to put a price on Carbon. That was the achievement. From there, there was the obvious track to up the price and incentivise the transition towards a non carbon economy.
                  Your last sentence is just meaningless crap.
                  As for your projections of temperature trends – I challenge you to provide a peer reviewed scientific link substantiating your alarmist claims. (yes the global ave temp this year is likely to be a record – it normally is after a massive El Nino – but then it is expected to drop and plateau for around 15 years before the next surge.) We have a very slight window left. Trump has just shut it. Furthermore, such claims as you make do no good and they are more counter productive giving people a sense of hopelessness. and then – “oh well we might as well drill baby drill”.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    I don’t care about idiotic PR driven “starts” any more.

                    Recognise it for what it is: bullshit pretend and extend tactics from our politicians.

                    My back of the envelope calculations say that we will break 2 deg C in the next 10-15 years or so: max. You believe what you want.

                    • Macro

                      So no you can’t! I probably won’t be around in 10 – 15 years otherwise I’d call you on it.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Go ahead, you can reassure yourself with the peer reviewed literature. But people like Guy McPherson have done the most extensive literature searches and his calls have been pretty right so far. Multiple positive feedbacks are already in full swing.

                    • Macro

                      Multiple positive feedbacks are already in full swing.
                      Name one.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Increasing moisture content of the troposphere. You know of course that water vapour is a powerful greenhouse gas.

                    • locus

                      CV, I guess the McPherson cult believes we have runaway climate change and so anything Trump does to fire up the coal industry and burn hydrocarbons at an ever increasing rate will be just fine.

                      …why would you care about the toxic effects of pollution, or protection of human rights if we are all going to fry anyway

                      …at least the Trump followers will be happy for a wee while

                    • Macro

                      The increase of water vapour has both a positive and negative feedback. Yes water vapour is a potent GHG, but increasing clouds are a negative feedback (Climate denialists emphasis this factor rather than the GHG factor). The most recent research suggests that overall there is a slight positive feedback but it is not as large as MacPherson insists. These factors are incorporated into climate models which do not predict the rapid warming of MacPherson – who has been shown to be wildly inaccurate in his Climate predictions.

          • joe90

            I wonder what he regards as infrastructure. Lots n lots n lots of oil wells?

            And tolls, lots n lots n lots of tolls. Payable to Wall Street investors, of course.

            The one upside to a plan like Trump’s is that it might solve some political problems. Americans like new roads and bridges. They don’t like paying for them. By incentivizing private companies to take on these projects with some tax credits, it might make the work look relatively inexpensive. States wouldn’t have to add any bonds to their books. The federal government wouldn’t have to add much to its debt.

            But a lot of the savings to taxpayers would likely be illusory. The main beneficiaries, in all likelihood, are the Wall Street investors who would love to skim some cash off your ride to work.


          • Richard Rawshark

            He means you know the souixx Indians pipeline protest, it’s going through, they better move, he ain’t going to play nice anymore.

            He has categorically stated those pipelines and infrastructure are going though, they will create jobs and it’s good for America.

            I’m all for protesting.., but move .. Indians.. please.

            In a very big concern for your safety kind of way.

            The days of PC are gone, if you can win the fight do it, if not step aside days.., wow that’s hard to grasp but true.

            • Manuka AOR

              I’m all for protesting.., but move .. Indians.. please.

              And go … where?
              They have already been corralled onto the reservation, now the pipeline threatens their water supply.

          • billmurray

            I did not want him to win but he did.
            When he was standing for the GOP nomination he spoke about bad roads, inadequate and badly maintained bridges, old and badly presented airports, he mentioned the quality and design of international airports he had been to.

            I believe those are the sort of projects he intends to spend government infrastructure money on.

            • Richard Rawshark

              he’s bought into the pipline company Billmurray.. I can find the cite somewhere I read it this morning in HORROR, pre pres.

              But now that Trump has won the election and has said he would steer energy policy toward more oil production rather than less, plans to ignore the Obama administration and advance the pipeline so swiftly doesn’t seem so brazen at after all. Just prescient.
              According to his Public Financial Disclosure Report, Trump disclosed between $500,000 and $1 million in investments in ETP. He also disclosed $50,000 to $100,000 in investments in Phillips 66, which would own one-quarter of the Dakota Access pipeline once complete.

              not the same one but here and the full horror from here


              As Politico reports, Trump is also seriously considering 74-year-old Forrest Lucas, of oil products company Lucas Oil, as a top contender for interior secretary, along with “Drill, Baby, Drill” Sarah Palin.

              he wasn’t thinking about the people, but how to capitalize and make what he really loves, Mo MONEY!!!

              and I am now nostradmus reincarnate. it was such a spooky prediction.

              • billmurray

                Richard Rawshark,
                Yes I also read he bought into the Pipeline Company, he also did not show his tax returns, he talked about womans pussies, he told lies, lies and more lies, he is a bigot, he has funny hair and a host of other faults.

                He got elected yesterday as the President of the United States of America.

                The GOP won and have still got control of the senate.

                I did not support his election and even 30 hours later I am still stunned but to live in denial is negative.

                • Richard Rawshark

                  err denial of what, I think your assuming I have either supported him or don’t not sure. Frankly neither.

                  All I said was he would win, that does not mean I support him, if your getting confused.

                  Hmm to note, yeah I liked his message..

                  But don’t think for a minute I knew he wasn’t all fake as hell.

                  I did kind of cheer him on in a middle finger to the world kind of way, so meh yes technically I did support him.. gawd, tough admittal

          • Richard Rawshark

            That’s exactly ish what he means, but moving oil via pipelines.., for a start.

            Read my reply 1 above Anne at,.. please sit, and be prepared for some shithouse news mate.

          • Richard Rawshark

            He is because if he stops the contributions, what money has he got to spend then.. what a moron.

      • Richard Rawshark 42.2.2

        If I was a lunatic with a mission to make America great again by wiping the slate clean and starting a fresh with a big fucking a wall. I’d deport the bastards that had previously had their lives fubared by a corrupt system as they would hold me back.

        Now he’s going to come up against Hitlers great problem, what to do with the ones that he can’t deport..

        camps.. then they become full, more problems what do we do with all these dead beat drug dealing gangsters, make em work.. see where i’m heading..

        Seriously talking shits easy.. walking the talks another story.

        I love these big mouth full of promises twats, you see them everywhere, been there done that man, my cars better n yours, I did this i can do that..

        Call em on it and it’s a week of excuses.

        • billmurray

          Richard Rawshark
          “Call em on it and it’s week of excuses” you are right talking about the careerist politician
          But don’t forget this guy kept doubling down every time he caused controversy.
          He is not a careerist politician.
          What CV is saying about deporting hard core repeat offending criminals sounds plausible.
          Should he do it he would be cheered and feted across America.
          We all have to adjust our thinking, I think he’s for real because he is not a politician.

          • Richard Rawshark

            Prior to anything and his doing the apprentice he was an equal hirer and firer he hired women and African americans..

            Randal Pinkett, 44, the first person of colour to win the competition, was offended when Trump asked him if he wanted to share the crown title with runner-up Rebecca Jarvis during the Season 4 finale

            although his penchant for annoying the fuck out of people seems legendary.

            DD is a blow hard liar, so meh

            what you see of the man is not so racist, and his beef with the Mexicans..

            i’d have to live in the states to get a true picture of the issues there.

          • Colonial Viper

            Plus everyone needs to remember: Trump improved Republican performance with Latinos from 27% to 29%.

            And that was after months and months and months of demonisation by the Clinton corporate MSM as a racist bigot.

            If he does it right he will be at 35% with the Latino community going into 2020.

            Most commentators here on The Standard are still completely misunderestimating the Trump phenomenon.

            • Richard Rawshark

              To many low paid jobs going to under the table non tax paying, border crosses..

              Tell you what if we bordered a poorer country guess what would be going on here,

              Oh it does I forgot. Just, in a smaller scale.

          • rocco siffred

            “What CV is saying about deporting hard core repeat offending criminals sounds plausible.”

            Isn’t this exactly what Australia is already doing?

  43. infused 43

    Google ‘peaceful transition of power’ and see the results.

  44. Whispering Kate 44

    One thing I found quite interesting, when Trump brought his family on to the stage – children from 3 wives, I thought to myself how sane and normal they appeared. None of this dysfunctional weird sort of shit we see in very wealthy families. Yes, I know they were on display, but Ivanka, one of his daughters is a very successful business woman, his eldest son came across as a “normal” person and the Donald was a very proud poppa. Also, one can judge a man by how he treats his in-laws and he has got his wife’s parents from Slovenia now living in one of his high rises in the States close for his wife. I didn’t see any pink hair or weird sullen looking kids like someone I could mention. Also I thought his wife came across as being elegant, well spoken and what the hell was there to criticise over.

    He reminded me of Rod Stewart and how he has managed to keep his wives and his children together harmonously all of them into a nice working family unit – it takes some effort to keep everybody happy and somehow Rod seems to manage it and it appears so does the Donald.

    We should let him get on with it – the people have spoken, the left are so far to the right these days the people have no choice. We need a saviour of sorts for this country to be rid of the corruption and rorting of institutional politicians – they are all snuffling and snorting in the same trough and are so far removed from the ordinary people that there is bound to be massive revolt at the polling booths from now on in.

    Personally I don’t think the earth is going to tilt off its axis – he will be an entertainment for the world and he is not going to push the nuclear button, not with that lovely family he has – and he may be deny climate change – but there will always be plenty on this planet who will take up that challenge without him.

    We need this to happen in this country but we don’t have the courage or the passion for it unfortunately, somewhere along the line we have lost our moral compass.

    • joe90 44.1

      Imagine what would be said and written had Obama appeared in public with five children from three wives.

      • Whispering Kate 44.1.1

        I don’t get what you are implying. There are many families in the world today who have had 3 spouses – in NZ I know of people who are into their third marriage. Managing kids in families with children with ex spouses is no mean feat juggling all the personalities etc. The Trump family just seemed to be normal people who had good manners and spoke well of their father. Personally I think he is a wild card and anything could happen with him – but if you can judge a person by the way they get on with their families – it is a pretty accurate sign of somebody who isn’t going to rock the boat to any degree.

        As my own spouse said of the US elections – it could only happen in the US. The establishment have asked for this and they have got it in spades.

      • Richard Rawshark 44.1.2


    • Richard Rawshark 44.2

      The greasy slick back hair, the wall street big money trader look, his kids make me want to throw up. His kids creep me out, even his daughters, they are like Stepford kids. are they robots? Where are the real Trump kids?

      sorry Kate I don’t agree with you.

    • locus 44.3

      a loss of “moral compass” is what a lot of conservative christians did when they put a cross in the Trump box

  45. joe90 45

    These are people who fear for their and their children’s futures.

    The blatent hypocrisy of these far left purists. Immediately bowing down to Trump instead of vigilantly opposing him. Cowards.— Marcus Hassan (@smoothkobra) November 9, 2016

    My neighbor (Trump supporter) said "I hope u don’t hate me based on who I voted for"Me: No, but based on who u voted for I think u hate me— Jasmine (@JasmineLWatkins) November 9, 2016

    Black women did our work, as we always do, to try to save America from itself. 90%+ of us voted for HRC to stop Trump.This ain't on us.— Brittany Packnett (@MsPackyetti) November 9, 2016

    @docrocktex26 I'm scared to be black and in America. Used to just be cops.— Chris 'Nasty' Aplin (@ChrisAplin) November 10, 2016

    STOP calling Trump voters UNEDUCATED. Trump DOMINATED the young white college vote in the south. Whites of ALL education levels chose this.— thisisyourconscience (@lincolnablades) November 9, 2016

    Me: How was school today?Daughter: Kids were saying "goodbye" to the Latino kids..— Darryn M. Briggs (@darryn_briggs) November 9, 2016

    Someone spray painted "Black lives don't matter and neither does your votes" on a wall in Durham overnight. pic.twitter.com/Idfm5T8RFg— Derrick Lewis (@DerrickQLewis) November 9, 2016

    • infused 45.1

      They are just words. This is happening now: https://streamable.com/6nwo

      They stole his car and dragged him down the road.

      So who are the ones being violent again?

      • joe90 45.1.1

        Probably deserved it.

        #DonaldTrump won the election & white people already don't know how to act This white boy told me I'm a Nigger and should be pickin cotton. pic.twitter.com/aPgRr7Zryo— Jaae (@Jaaezus) November 9, 2016

        • infused

          You’re a real dumb fuck.

          • joe90

            Indeed I could well be just that, but I’m not the semi-literate cretin.

          • Psycho Milt

            You’re a real dumb fuck.

            Well, at least he’s not offering up violent criminals as a comparison with the President-elect. I guess we can probably all agree that at least Trump doesn’t hang around on street corners dragging people out of their cars and beating them, but that isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement of his fitness to rule.

      • Richard Rawshark 45.1.2

        Where is any info in that clip, that’s highly inflammatory without the back story infused to others, I suggest removing it, or getting the back story with it.

        Just saying this clip relates to situation X is dangerous grounds Mr.

      • Richard Rawshark 45.1.3

        BTW , there are no sides when fighting racism/bigotry.., political, ethnic or sexist.

        you want to really think hard about what I said there.

    • Richard Rawshark 46.1

      Oh ffs

      Forget Canada, after Brexit and Trump people are asking if they can move to Mars

      a site that also had this and ten million other, horror tump tunes.

  46. Saarbo 47

    Have just witnessed a presentation by a top British economist brought here by a bank, to 300 farmers. He reckoned he had predicted Trumps victory long ago because the economic system had screwed the poor. He reckons that neo liberalism is dead, global trade will slow and the pursuit of “small government” is finished. Governments have to put more money into pursuing equality and printing money will be all the go.

    • Colonial Viper 47.1

      S&P500 at the end of Oct was lower than at the end of Jul.

      That is highly predictive of a change at the White House.

      I am just stunned that so many lefties cannot see that we have fully entered a new political era now.

  47. Stuart Munro 48

    Meh – looks more like the Fall of the House of Usher.

  48. gnomic 49

    Hooray. America will be great again. And the Donald is going to renew the American Dream. He is also going to unite the nation, and do 1001 other extraordinary things before breakfast, or possibly not. The Donald can square the circle, cut taxes while spending much more on the military, build a wall against those fiendish greasers and wetbacks, rebuild the rust industries, deny climate change, be all things to all persons, and just generally work miracles. Or not. I suspect not.

    Oh well, now that the Republicans have total control, let’s see what they’ve got. Too bad about the Supreme Court, there goes several decades of any social progress. Too bad this means more ‘growth’ more military spending, and in all likelihood extinction for the famous spotted owl. Optimists can look forward to the total renewal of infrastructure in the USA! USA! USA! Or maybe not.

    Trumpster. Some say the Trumpster U swindle is going to bring him down. But no doubt the fix is in there. After all, not much percentage in opposing somebody who may well be a psychopathic megalomaniac with all the forces of the state at his disposal. Totally unlike the leader of a certain state in Europe who rose from chaotic conditions during the 1930’s to cries of Seig Heil!

    As for Mrs Clinton, she deserved the whomping. An inept candidate if there ever was one. A case of fake authenticity. At least we won’t have to endure any more from her.

    If the citizens of the USA think the Trumpster is the answer, they are indeed dreaming. Not that a majority of the voters did, as I understand the figures.

  49. joe90 50

    The pledge to drain the swamp looks to be bait, and with Carson, Giuliani, Christie, Brownback, Gingrich, Bolton, Huckabee, Palin, assorted wingnuts and Wall Street financiers in the frame, and switch – to a dairy conversion bigger than Texas.

    And the conversion could well be overseen by a man with deep ties to a religious hate group.



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