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Bill English is a liar not a leader

Written By: - Date published: 7:38 am, June 21st, 2017 - 159 comments
Categories: Abuse of power, accountability, bill english, useless - Tags: , , , ,

Much has been written about the Barclay affair –

Two bad decisions, one awful day for National (devastating)
Bill English’s worst day as PM (politics of Bill’s “memory lapse” – completely devastating)
It’s not the crime, it’s the coverup (legal view)
Audrey Young: MP and recording debacle becomes credibility matter for PM (well said)
Bill English had answers, but four hours too late (Tracy it’s not a ‘dodgy memory card’ it’s a lie)
Patrick Gower: National owes the taxpayer for Todd Barclay’s hush money (good luck with that)
Barclay and arrogance (thoughtful)
Politicians, police, and the payout (Melanie Reid’s great work started it all)

From which we learn that –

• English knew for months about the hush-money paid from the leader’s budget.

• English knew for months that Todd Barclay was lying.

• English covered up Barclay’s lies and his (possibly illegal certainly unethical and bullying) behaviour – screwing his old electorate and former workers in the process.

• English supported Barclay’s re-nomination (now the subject of a separate crisis).

• English lied to the media yesterday.

• English was forced to admit the lie 4 hours later.

• English was not strong enough to get Barclay’s resignation yesterday.

Bill English has blown his brand big-time. It was always fake.

159 comments on “Bill English is a liar not a leader”

  1. Craig H 1

    I don’t know where it will go, but congratulations to the media for investigating it and writing about it. Always nice to see National getting the boot put into them for a change…

  2. English is toast, gone burger, and it is true that it is all his own fault.

  3. Tricledrown 3

    Sir lie a lot gave money out of his Prime Ministers slush fund to pay for the silence of a National Party employee to avoid prosecution and bad publicity.
    Highly illegal.

  4. ” Bill English has blown his brand big-time. It was always fake. ”

    And why would we expect anything different from the same man who advocated the same old ‘austerity’ type of policy’s for the unemployed, workers and even the middle classes while opening up the country to his beloved ‘ foreign interests’ and lining the pockets of the already filthy rich ? – and who also led the National party to its worst ever electoral defeat a decade ago ?

    And even then – he only got to his present position by default.

    Does this country never learn ?

    Does a leopard change its spots ?

    Does a Globalist ideologue ever think in terms of their country’s best interests ?

  5. Tricledrown 5

    The Hollow men strike again Barclay a Cameron Slater plant
    Dirty politics strike again.
    Barclay’s selection is looking suspect breaking party rules.

    • Well we see today the little Hosking pair of lips is already doing the minimizing bit and calling it ‘ only of interest to the beltway crowd’ … that in essence it will soon blow over and wont affect English…

      They say the majority of the iceberg is what you DON’T see under the water,…. however.

      As in the day when the Double Dipper from Dipton first earned his nickname, as is the Barclay / English scandal of the last few days …

      A person is judged by their fruits , a man once said.

      • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1

        They say the majority of the iceberg is what you DON’T see under the water,…

        That’s the big one. We’re seeing this but what aren’t we seeing?

        • Gabby 5.1.1.1

          Well we’re not hearing much (yet) about the candidate selection meetings, nor the dictaphone / cctv thing. That’d be a bit of a gamechanger. The police would have to look really hard the other way to let that slide. I wonder what ‘complaints’ from ‘the public’ Wee Toddy reported to P Services.
          Putting a name to the Party official who (allegedly) said nice family you got there, shame if anything happened to them, would be a bonus.

        • tom 5.1.1.2

          If the CCTV has audio it is illegal

  6. Shona 6

    Melanie Reid old school hard ass journo who does her job. And, isn’t allergic to work. What a gem!

    • mary_a 6.1

      @ Shona (6) … Melanie Reid is one of the best journalists around. Always has been. She works to keep the people informed. A rare treasure in media these days.

      I just hope she doesn’t suffer recrimination from the powers-that-be for her professional work over this issue. We all know how the Natz (and their puppet agents) operate, particularly using the police to its own advantage. One word from bully boy Joyce and they will do what’s in the Natz best interest!

  7. roy cartland 7

    Now everyone, especially “good” Nats, are flapping about as if it’s out of the ordinary. It’s as if they can finally pin the hatred to someone when they were quite happy to swallow and rubbish DP and all the atrocities of the past 3 terms.

    • Draco T Bastard 7.1

      Now everyone, especially “good” Nats, are flapping about as if it’s out of the ordinary.

      Yep. All of this is just National Party MO. The only difference is this time they got caught and it’s too much to sweep under the rug as the MSM usually do.

  8. greywarshark 8

    Bill English is not as good a liar and as astute as previous leader who was Key by name and held the key to their maintenance of popularity by nature and skills. That is the situation. Gnashional need to find a better, smoother, oilier liar. John Key’s absence is deeply felt by them and their sycophants.

    • Anne 8.1

      Yes greywarshark.

      I feel a teensy weensy bit sorry for Bill English (only a teensy weensy bit mind) because his predecessor lied like a trouper throughout his tenure (see BLiP’s famous list) and got clean away with all of it. Bill lies and he’s on the cutting board straight away.

      Choose your friends more wisely in the future Bill.

      • greywarshark 8.1.1

        Some conmen have it in spades, and some will never get beyond the 101 stage.

      • WILD KATIPO 8.1.2

        John Key was a scumsucking treacherous lying Globalist shitter.

        And so is Bill English.

        The hell with sentimentality. No one has any call crying even a sniffle of tears for those treasonist’s because they didn’t even bother to cry crocodile tears for any but the elite of this country.

        Screw them , and screw their New World Order.

        I’d have them all behind bars as soon as look at them.

    • Hanswurst 8.2

      Key was never really a convincing liar. He always looked uncomfortable and a bit sort of exposed. He just had a manner that made people like him and actively want to give him the benefit of even considerable doubt.

      • In Vino 8.2.1

        Well put. He had a charm that made the majority overlook what some of us thought were obvious clangers. English lacks that charm. This is actually dangerous for him (I hope).

  9. Penny Bright 9

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/06/20/35006?slug=english-barclay

    Comment: Bill English’s worst day as PM

    “Bill English’s decision to turn a blind eye in early 2016 to Todd Barclay’s revelation to him about illicitly recording staff member conversations has come back to haunt the Prime Minister with a vengeance, Bernard Hickey writes.”

    When is Todd Barclay going to resign?

    When will the Police reopen their investigation?

    How big a political dent will Todd Barclay make to PM Bill English’s ‘reputation’ and public perception thereof?

  10. ScottGN 10

    Herald is reporting that Joyce won’t back Barclay.

    “Asked if Barclay was a liar, Joyce said, “well, I must say, his two statements yesterday didn’t exactly match up, did they? But that’s for him to sort out, and it’s actually for him to sort out for the party in Clutha-Southland.”

    Where does leave him with Bill English then? His statements yesterday didn’t exactly match up either?

    • Please go a little easy on Dildo Man , will you?

      Put yourself in his shoes.

      So , …on the one hand , …

      We have a sniveling newbie caught out lying who is expendable , – on the other – we have a sniveling lying old hand who also happens to be Dildo Mans boss.

      Now ,… ask yourself, – who would you back to hang on to your position ???

  11. Penny Bright 11

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/06/patrick-gower-todd-barclay-s-admission-means-police-must-reopen-case.html

    “OPINION: Todd Barclay has provided all the evidence police need to reopen the case against him.”

  12. mordecai 12

    “English lied to the media yesterday.”
    When? What did he say that was a lie?

    “English was not strong enough to get Barclay’s resignation yesterday.”
    You don’t understand how the National party works. MP’s are selected by their electorates. The National Party operate a grass-roots democratic system, not like Labour, where candidates are selected effectively by Party HQ. English can call for Barclay to resign, but he can’t force him to.

    • RedLogix 12.1

      For four hours, English appeared to be a hostage to a lowly MP who was denying in public something that the Prime Minister knew to be true, and knew would damage the National Party if it came out.

      English prevaricated his way through 15 minutes of questions from reporters on the way into National’s caucus meeting in the hope the story might go away, saying seven times that he could not recall if Barclay had told him about the recording. He even said he had confidence in the first-term MP, despite Barclay revealing evidence of an illegal act against an electorate agent that English had known and respected for 17 years.

      Just metres away at the same time, Barclay was denying to reporters that he had made a recording or had spoken to the Prime Minister about it. That started the clock ticking.

      Even during the questioning before the caucus meeting, English could sense he was in trouble when Newsroom’s Sam Sachdeva asked him if he had made a statement to the police about it. English confirmed the statement, but then could not recall what he had told police in the statement. He then said he would not release the statement and then failed to answer questions about how he could have made a statement to police about a conversation, but now could not recall it.

      It looked like he had been caught unprepared to defend something he wasn’t comfortable defending.

      Once English knew that Newsroom knew about the police statement, he could not be sure it would not come out to make fools of both Barclay and English. So some time between 10am and 2pm he decided to cut at least some of his losses and throw Barclay under the bus.

      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/06/20/35006?slug=english-barclay

      It’s called ‘lying by omission or misdirection’. I know you’re going to try and parse, pontificate and piffle this into non-existence, but let me put it this way … if I pulled such a stunt with my employer over such a serious matter I’m 100% sure I would not be on the payroll next week.

      • Gabby 12.1.1

        It was probably prudent of Bingles to avoid the ambush and check – tv or dictaphone dammit? What did I say?

      • mordecai 12.1.2

        Thanks for the press release, but again, what is the lie English told? Stop your evasion and answer the question.

        • RedLogix 12.1.2.1

          Lie by omission, English knew the recording existed, that he had made a statement to the police, and repeatedly pretended he ‘could not remember’.

          There under your nose, but it’s fun watching you deny it.

          I’m thinking if your moral compass cannot detect why English has just so damaged his credibility here, it’s going to take you even longer to show some self-awareness.

          • mordecai 12.1.2.1.1

            “Lie by omission, English knew the recording existed, that he had made a statement to the police, and repeatedly pretended he ‘could not remember’.”
            Saying he can’t remember something isn’t evidence of a lie by omission. Unless you can read minds. You’re simply letting your irrational bias cloud your judgement.

            • RedLogix 12.1.2.1.1.1

              Ever made a statement to the police and ‘forgotten about it’? I can understand wanting to forget about it, but when you are PM we do expect a slightly higher standard of personal integrity.

              Or not … in your case.

              • mordecai

                What was the statement? When was it made? Where is the transcript of English saying he had ‘forgotten’?

                • left_forward

                  FFS mordecai, perhaps you should find this stuff out for yourself rather than this manic cross examination.

                  • Sadly mortify doesn’t care about the truth. And no one cares about his bullshit in spport of his lying PM.

                  • mordecai

                    I’m not accusing anyone of telling lies.

                    • left_forward

                      No, you are feverishly defending the obfuscation of truth as if significantly distinct to telling a lie.

                    • mordecai

                      “No, you are feverishly defending the obfuscation of truth as if” significantly distinct to telling a lie.”
                      What obfuscation?

                    • Macro

                      “No, you are feverishly defending the obfuscation of truth as if” significantly distinct to telling a lie.”
                      What obfuscation?

                      🙄

                      obfuscate verb
                      make obscure, unclear, or unintelligible:

                      You should know – you do it all the time!

        • Stuart Munro 12.1.2.2

          Come on – “Strong economy” the bugger is a compulsive liar and has never been anything else.

          • mordecai 12.1.2.2.1

            Proof? Examples?

            • Macro 12.1.2.2.1.1

              Have a walk down Queen street some time
              Count the number of people begging.

              Visit Bunnings car parks at night
              Count the number of people living in cars

              Visit a foodbank tomorrow
              Ask if the number of food parcels issued is on the increase

              Visit a night shelter some time:
              Are there any vacant beds?

              Get off your bottom sitting at the gate( and whispering to the king) and have a look around at what is truely happening to the people of this country – and I don’t mean just your mates.

            • Stuart Munro 12.1.2.2.1.2

              Ex immigration and housing the prawn has never come up with growth over 1%, when 3% actual is the baseline for competence.

              Talks a great game though.

              • mordecai

                Must do, given we have a third term government at record levels of popularity, and a PM who is consigning his primary opponent to oblivion.

                • Stuart Munro

                  He’s not at record levels of popularity though – he’s within two seats of losing the Treasury benches.

                  So you kind of need a more realistic statement – more like “English’s popularity dives as a perfect storm of revelations show he’s piking over Pike River, he lied about Todd Barclay, and his so-called ‘strong economy’ will evidently collapse if the immigration rorts are shut down. Will he return to the dizzying depths of the low 20s he occupied the last time he led National to a richly deserved defeat?”

            • WILD KATIPO 12.1.2.2.1.3

              Mordecai has thought this through and believes he / she has an angle for justification.

              The fact is , there is none. The story’s were switched , they lied , and the old ‘ I forget ‘ ruse was pulled out to A ) buy time and B ) to deliberately avoid stating the outright truth .

              Incidentally the ‘ I forget ‘ ruse was popularized during the Ronald Reagan era by ( in particular , but not exclusively so ) far right wing politicians , – who started adopting that tactic and making it commonplace in western politics to avoid adverse legal and political complications. ( It is important however , … to note that both the far left and the far right are simply the two heads of Globalist world government ).

              But it was part of the ‘ dirty politics’ tactics imported from the USA and taught by such subversives as Simon Lusk.

              Here , it was used extensively by John Key to almost ridiculous extremes (who , although being of the ‘Right ‘ wing National party of NZ , – was firmly and blatantly in the Obama team – who was a Democrat – traditionally the equivalent of the USA’ s ‘ Left ‘ wing …. and who endorsed the same erosion of civil liberties as Key ie : TTPA , increased Police state, massive increase in the surveillance of the public, and the aggressive advocation of wars on foreign soil eg : ”Get some GUTS !!! ” and regular drone indiscriminate bombings )

              John Banks was another serial offender in obstructing justice in this manner. Nick Smith and others have also used it when in a tight corner as are many other minor players and even private sector individuals.

              It is simply not credible that on so many , many issues of critical import –
              whether it involves illegal activity, breach of democratic principle or evidence of complicity or collusion – that these political officials continually resort to demonstrating their unfitness to be in their positions by simply ‘ forgetting ‘ their words or actions or those of others when questioned.

              Particularly so in this modern age of fast digital recording , and instant recall of evidence.

              As in the old legal ‘peasants right to silence’ which was legislated around to make it an offence, so also should ‘ forgetting’ when used as a defense to avoid criminal prosecution or political embarrassment when there is sufficient circumstantial evidence of a serious breach.

              I could hardly see ( as an extreme case to illustrate the point ) , … Herman Goering – had he lived – being let off the death penalty by simply saying ‘ I forget ‘ every time he was questioned.

              • mordecai

                Yawn. Still no real evidence of lies. No wonder this is off the top of the Herald site already.

                [lprent: The NZ Herald site has foe aboutva decade been run using clickbait criteria. Effectively this means that nothing survives at tbe top of the site for more than about 2 days if it doesn’t appeal to a very wide demographic. Ie sport, gossip invokving sex and violence or gore of some form.

                Basically it is run by mindless observation by a dumb computer of the clicks of people’s reptilian hind brains rather than any form of intelligence.

                I usually have to scan through about a hundred articles before I find one worth reading. Which is why I don’t read it directly anymore. I just read the business section and whatever articles are highlighted by others as having some interest. The Minerals website appears to be trying to emulate The Truth (Which eventually failed)

                But while I can see its appeal for you. It isn’t a valid argument to use here. ]

                • Yawn.

                  Interesting.

                  Interesting that you display the same endorsement of evasion in using the authority of a newspaper to qualify not only in your view public opinion but also the legality of the situation as do other biased National supporters .

                  Its not going to work.

                  Its called Perjury.
                  ………………………………………………………..

                  perjury
                  ˈpəːdʒ(ə)ri/Submit
                  nounLAW
                  the offence of wilfully telling an untruth or making a misrepresentation under oath.
                  “he claimed two witnesses at his trial had committed perjury”
                  synonyms: lying under oath, violation of an oath, giving false evidence/testimony, bearing false witness/testimony, forswearing oneself, making false statements, wilful falsehood.

                  …………………………………………………………..

                  You will also notice that the word ‘ untruth’ was included in the above list.

                  …………………………………………………………..

                  untruth
                  ʌnˈtruːθ/Submit
                  noun
                  a lie or false statement (often used euphemistically).
                  “they go off and tell untruths about organizations for which they worked”
                  synonyms: lie, falsehood, fib, fabrication, deception, made-up story, trumped-up story, invention, fiction, piece of fiction, falsification, falsity, cock and bull story, barefaced lie; More
                  the quality of being false.
                  “the story was full of misleading innuendo and untruth”

                  ……………………………………………………………

                  ” Mr English initially responded to questions saying “I can’t recall,” but later admitted he’d known about the recordings for over a year and that Mr Barclay had told him.”

                  Todd Barclay recording scandal: ‘Someone is lying’ | Newshub
                  http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/…/todd-barclay-recording-scandal-someone-is-lying.html

                  ………………………………….

                  Little said that English had known about the recording 18 months ago but had never acknowledged this in media interviews and had stood aside while Barclay denied its existence. That was a ” total failure of leadership,” he said.

                  New Zealand First leader Winston Peters went further, saying that English and former Prime Minister John Key had been complicit in hiding illegal activity.

                  “When you aid and abet a crime, and when you are involved in hush money and a cover-up, then there are serious questions to be answered.”

                  Opposition targets Prime Minister Bill English and police over Todd …
                  http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11880251

                  ………………………………….

                  And also , at least figuratively , … that can apply also in the ‘court of public opinion’ as well.

                  I would shut up if I were you and stop trying to derail , talk in semantics and otherwise divert attention away from what is , in fact , quite a serious breach in the integrity of our democracy and our laws .

                  And one other thing… if I can put it succinctly at your level so that you can understand ….

                  I don’t give a FLYING FUCK about your vested interest’s , bud.

                  Not one sack of shit.

                  • mordecai

                    So now you’re quoting A Little as a source? Desperate as.

                    • You seem to be an abject fool in comprehensive reading skills and interpreting what is patently obvious , – yet an expert at denying what everybody else including members in the National party are now saying…

                      Are you ,… really a fool?

                      Of course not. You are just a person who will defend a liar if it means defending your personal self interests. Either that or you are not interested in democracy and its defense at all but rather subverting and filling threads such as this up with your inanities with the end objective of rendering them nonsensical.

                      What you have succeeded in doing , however , – and congratulations for achieving it – is demonstrating a childish and stubborn incredibility in trying to defend the indefensible of something that somehow threatens your security , – to which a more balanced and mature adult viewpoint being required than yours would have to admit was absolutely indefensible.

                      I really do not think , you have convinced anybody of your viewpoints barring edifying people of the fact that you are , in fact , a dime a dozen common garden internet troll with no real input worth printing , let alone actually expecting people to take what you have to say as anything of any real substance or import.

                    • mordecai

                      “I really do not think , you have convinced anybody of your viewpoints…”
                      I really didn’t expect I would. My point was to demonstrate how silly the ‘liar liar’ claims really are, because on the basis of this example you could accuse anyone of anything.

    • mpledger 12.2

      You don’t understand about political leadership and political capital.

      If Collins was PM, Barclay would be goneburger – Collins wouldn’t suffer fools making her look like an idiot and the party look like a corrupt, ugly, nasty mess.

      • Reality 12.2.1

        It’s likely the electorate is a spider’s web of intrigue and machination between all those involved. Who is going to backstab who?

        • mordecai 12.2.1.1

          Oh there’s no doubt about that. The electorate has had some pretty heavy hitters from within National playing against Barclay for some time. Politics is a dirty game, no question.

        • Robert Guyton 12.2.1.2

          What did Invercargill MP, Sarah Dowie know? As Todd Barclay’s “buddy” MP, Dowie was close to him and must have at least wondered, “what’s it all about, Toddy?”. As well, her husband is a policeman and it’s not unreasonable to think she’d have asked him about the position police were taking over the allegations against her National Party buddy. Has anyone asked her?

      • mordecai 12.2.2

        You don’t understand the National Party constitution. English can’t fire Barclay. He can only outline him.

        • ianmac 12.2.2.1

          Applies to all Electorate MPs mordecai.. Can’t be sacked unless convicted of a crime with a sentence of 2 years or more. But an effective PM would convince an MP to resign. English failed. They can ban an MP from Caucus whence they become an “Independent.”

        • Kaplan 12.2.2.2

          mordecai. You don’t understand electorates if you think that has anything to do with National’s constitution.

          • mordecai 12.2.2.2.1

            Yes, I do. The grass roots members in each electorate choose their MP. That is why the Nats are more democratic than the Lab’s, whose ‘local’ candidates are largely dictated by HQ.

            [lprent: Ah no. Perhaps you should read up on that particular subject before making simple minded stupid ignorant and invalid assertions. Come back to that topic once you are actually informed about it. Rather what appears to be some kind of retarded troll who probably also has to stimulate their lower brain with their fingers to be able to think at all.

            I really don’t like trolls or people acting like them. Because of that I don’t like assertions stated as fact with neither accuracy or backing – it is a trait of a fuckwit troll..

            Read our policy as well. Then you may understand what I mean whn I say that you just got a warning. ]

            • Draco T Bastard 12.2.2.2.1.1

              That is why the Nats are more democratic than the Lab’s, whose ‘local’ candidates are largely dictated by HQ.

              LOL

              Typical RWNJ – completely misinformed about reality. National is the least democratic political party in the country.

              The thing about authoritarians and capitalists is that they really, really hate democracy as the idea of the people having power truly terrifies them.

    • rob 12.3

      it looks as if he abused that system aswel.

    • red-blooded 12.4

      Excuse me, mate, but you clearly don’t understand Labour’s candidate selection processes. Labour electorate MPs are nominated and chosen by members in their electorate. List MPs are ranked by rank and file members from their region, then final ranks are decided by a committee made up of MPs, officials and members’ reps, based on input from the regional votes, skills and experience and policies re diversity, balance of ages, genders etc. The difference is that the Nats don’t give ordinary members a voice in the list process.

      I’m sure both parties have some internal negotiation processes, but Labour electorate MPs are definitely not “selected effectively by Party HQ”.

      • mordecai 12.4.1

        Let’s assume you are correct. Then Little is a hypocrite, because he is calling for English to do something he can’t do (sack an MP), and that Little can’t himself do in his own party. That about sum it up?

  13. What did he say that was a lie?

    Warning: obfuscation based on convoluted disputes over what the word “lie” means ahead.

    On the plus side, you never know, we may get a quote out of it fit to stand with “It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.”

    “English was not strong enough to get Barclay’s resignation yesterday.”
    You don’t understand how the National party works.

    And you apparently don’t understand how politics works.

    • mordecai 13.1

      I’m more than happy to define a lie to you.
      “noun
      1.
      a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
      Synonyms: prevarication, falsification.
      Antonyms: truth.
      2.
      something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture:
      His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
      3.
      an inaccurate or false statement; a falsehood.”
      http://www.dictionary.com/browse/lie

      Now quote me the statement from English that qualifies under any part of that definition.

      • Hanswurst 13.1.1

        “I can’t recall where the story came from.” — Bill English

        Later the same day, he confirmed that Barclay had told him. Now, I think that most of us would be charitable enough to assume that English’s brain and memory currently function at a level that makes him more fit than a goldfish to be PM of New Zealand. Allowing for that assumption, the above statement can only be interpreted as a lie.

        • mordecai 13.1.1.1

          Rubbish. Quote the question he was responding to.

        • Psycho Milt 13.1.1.2

          Incoming: you can’t prove Bill English hadn’t really forgotten that Todd Barclay had told him about illegally recording someone’s conversation, that he’d had to make a statement to the Police about it, help arrange a cover-up involving a payout to the victim, and spend a year or more pretending that he didn’t know anything about it.

          • mordecai 13.1.1.2.1

            Not commenting on something is not a lie. Good try, but you can scurry away now.

            • Psycho Milt 13.1.1.2.1.1

              OK, so now we get to “depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is.” Took you long enough.

              • mordecai

                You didn’t comment on what you had for breakfast 3 months ago. You lied?

                • Just a note, mordecai: I’ve never read a weaker rejoinder than the above from you. Play-ground-aggrieved children do better.

                  • adam

                    Yes the phrase “I know you are, but what am I” did run through my head reading morecai’s comments – on more than one occasion.

                    • And Peewee Herman does that better than anyone 🙂

                    • adam

                      LOL, true

                    • mordecai

                      “But she didn’t.”
                      You’ve taken that an extra step, which isn’t logical. Clark knowingly signed a picture she didn’t paint. In the narrow minds of some that is dishonesty, just as in the narrow minds of some (and by the way this issue is already dead in the MSM after McCarten and Labour’s travails today) English lied.

                    • McFlock

                      ^ merdecai does do dunning-Kreuger better than anyone, though 🙂

                    • Mordecai is being pedantic on this point, though why, I’m not sure. It may simply be that he/she is fanatical about being right. There’s a difference though, between lying and not telling the truth. I guess Mordecai is determined to ram that difference down readers’ throats. Again, why that is, I’m not sure.

                • You didn’t comment on what you had for breakfast 3 months ago. You lied?

                  Let’s see how well that analogy stacks up against its point of comparison:

                  English confirmed the text message was his, but repeatedly said he could not recall who told him about the alleged recording.

                  More accurate analogy: I’m surrounded by reporters wanting to know what I had for breakfast three months ago, I know the answer very well but instead of giving it I tell them I can’t recall. I lied? Yep – mos def.

                  • mordecai

                    Context.

                    • The context being journos asking him about this thing he was involved in that he’d really rather not talk about. What do we call saying something that isn’t true in that context?

                    • mordecai

                      “The context being journos asking him about this thing he was involved in that he’d really rather not talk about. ”
                      And that’s why I’m asking, because you still haven’t provided the question he was responding to.

                    • …you still haven’t provided the question he was responding to.

                      Well, no, because that’s what we have a fucking news media for and they kindly put things like that on the web so that even the most incapable researcher can quickly find them, should he be able to tear himself away from obfuscatory trolling long enough to give it a go.

                      As you seem unable to tear yourself away, some of the questions at least are in one of the videos on this page, said video being appropriately captioned “The Prime Minister repeatedly said he couldn’t remember where he had heard about MP Todd Barclay’s alleged illegal recording of staffer.”

                      On the basis that you’re probably unable or unwilling to admit finding it even with those instructions, here are some of the questions and answers:

                      English: “Was I…?”

                      Reporter: “…told by Todd Barclay he’d made a recording.”

                      English: “I can’t recall exactly…”

                      Reporter: “Who told you that he left a dictaphone running?”

                      English: “As I said, I can’t recall…”

                      Reporter: “Was it Todd Barclay himself? Because it’s really important.”

                      English: “I can’t recall where that information came from.”

                      Those answers were all lies, in whatever context you’d like to fantasise for them.

                    • weka

                      Well, no, because that’s what we have a fucking news media for and they kindly put things like that on the web so that even the most incapable researcher can quickly find them, should he be able to tear himself away from obfuscatory trolling long enough to give it a go.

                      Quite. Plus a number of authors at TS have put up posts with the relevant media links. Not sure if I will have time today, but will put a moderator hat on when I get the chance as this looks like patterns of behaviour likely to annoy.

                    • mordecai

                      “Those answers were all lies,”
                      You simply cannot prove that.

                      [You are trolling. PM set out the proof for you. Keep this up and your commenting ability will be suspended – MS]
                      No, he didn’t. He quoted the context, but cannot prove English lied. If that doesn’t fit your preferred narrative, that’s your problem, but it certainly isn’t trolling.

                      [Using the test you propose no crime will ever be proved. Warning stands – MS]

                    • And now we arrive at the “You can’t prove Bill English hadn’t forgotten what he said in a statement to Police and didn’t suddenly just remember it when it was clear the reporters already knew” bit that I mentioned in comment 13.1.1.2. Don’t you feel even slightly embarrassed at your predictability? Not to mention, the stupidity of your position?

                    • mordecai

                      ““You can’t prove Bill English hadn’t forgotten what he said…”
                      Just like no-one can prove Helen Clark set out to deliberately deceive by signing a painting she didn’t paint. It’s just silly claims based on irrational bias.

                    • Just like no-one can prove Helen Clark set out to deliberately deceive by signing a painting she didn’t paint.

                      Well, it would be just like that if Helen Clark had spent a morning telling reporters that she couldn’t recall whether she’d actually painted something, then confessed the truth a few hours later once it became clear the reporters already knew it and were going to blab all. And, if the story about the painting had been out more than a year and she’d obfuscated the whole time when asked about it. And, if the incident had involved an actual crime. In other words, not very “just like” at all.

                    • PM you’d think that would be enough evidence for mortify but I suspect that zombie won’t stay down.

                    • mordecai

                      “And, if the incident had involved an actual crime. In other words, not very “just like” at all.”
                      Ah, no. The incidents have significant similarities, including silly claims made by opponents for ideological reasons only.

                • Cinny

                  Lolz, I didn’t lie, I just forgot to tell you and stop asking so many questions.

                  Bonus points for Bill being Catholic, he gets to pray his sins away to an imaginary friend, prayer the catholics excuse for inaction.

                  • mordecai

                    Well, at least I’m not Catholic!

                  • greywarshark

                    I seem to remember, not lying though I may be wrong, that Helen Clark signed her name on the back of the painting, as an autograph. If she had put her name in the corner in the front that would be a lie.

                    And what does that have to do with matters of political significance
                    and what the political elite choose to remember about them?
                    mordecai is filling in time with meaningless arguments. Meanwhile the planet is burning.

            • Robert Guyton 13.1.1.2.1.2

              It would seem that mordecai is hovering around a new position; that Bill English has behaved admirably throughout this issue. ‘Cause Bill didn’t akshully lie don’tchaknow!

            • Macro 13.1.1.2.1.3

              The slickest way in the world to lie is to tell the right amount of truth at the right time-and then shut up.

              ― Robert A. Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land

              Lying by omission is still lying.
              It fails the test you quoted at 13.1 above.
              something intended or serving to convey a false impression

              • mordecai

                How did he lie by ommission?
                You see you can assert anything you like…the moon is made of cheese…but repeating it doesn’t make it true.

                • Macro

                  You see you can assert anything you like…the moon is made of cheese…but repeating it doesn’t make it true.
                  Well you should know!
                  You do it repeatedly

            • mac1 13.1.1.2.1.4

              Good old Catholic theology allows for lying by omission and lying by commission, mordecai. Yes, you can lie by not commenting. That could be lying by omission. Bill English would understand that theological nicety.

              And as an edit, snap to Macro just above!

            • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1.2.1.5

              Not commenting on something is not a lie.

              Yes it is. It’s called lying by omission.

              Or it could be this one:

              Misleading and dissembling
              Main article: Misleading

              A misleading statement is one where there is no outright lie, but still retains the purpose of getting someone to believe in an untruth.

              In fact, there’s several points in that definition as to what a lie is that Blinglish and the rest of National are probably guilty of.

              • ropata

                Bungling Bill also had direct involvement in covering up Barclay’s misdeeds. Technically it’s not “lying” merely “conspiring to mislead the people of NZ” and “hiding the evidence of an abusive MP”

                So therefore Bingles gets a free pass by the Nat cheerleaders. He enabled an abuser, covered it up, and conveniently “forgot” about it when directly questioned.

                What a saintly PM
                /sarc

                • mordecai

                  Oh no argument from me, English has handled this poorly. But that’s a long way from lying.

              • mordecai

                “Yes it is. It’s called lying by omission.”
                Lying by ommission only applies when a person misleads by doing so. If English was asked to tell everything he recalled, and didn’t, then that would be lying by ommission. Moving on from definitions, lets have some proof.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  You’ve had the proof supplied. You didn’t believe it for the political purpose of defending Blinglish’s and National’s immoral actions.

                  Which is what you’re still doing and will do no matter what – exactly as the typical authoritarian you are is bound to do.

                  • mordecai

                    Post the proof.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      And now you’re just trolling.

                      As I’ve said – the proof has been posted. You refuse to accept it because doing would upset you as it would mean having to accept that a) you’re wrong and b) your leaders are scum.

                    • mordecai

                      “As I’ve said – the proof has been posted.”
                      This is classic denialist behaviour. What you have posted is Bill English saying he didn’t recall the specifics of something that happened months ago. You have posted NO evidence he lied. None.

                • AB

                  “Let’s have some proof”
                  But that’s exactly why the “I can’t remember” ploy is used so frequently – because you can’t prove that someone can remember something. Balance of probability helps as in:
                  “I can’t remember what I had for dinner 3 months ago”. Plausible
                  “I can’t remember seeing the alien spaceship descending, disgorging green 3-headed creatures who ate 126 schoolchildren in Gore” Less plausible

        • Stuart Munro 13.1.1.3

          I’d sooner have the goldfish frankly.

          • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1.3.1

            At least it’d probably have some concern about keeping the countries waterways clean.

            • Stuart Munro 13.1.1.3.1.1

              Goldfish do not scheme, they do not pretend to have economic skills they don’t possess. Goldfish listen more than they talk, and live in the now, not the 1960s when milk powder was a credible new technology. Goldfish don’t lie about having bad memories.

  14. silvertuatara 14

    With Joyce’s comments entering the fold, and not backing Barclay for fear of damage to Joyce’s own personal brand….could their be a possible leadership challenge unfolding within National…..Joyce & Collins or possibly Joyce & Bridges possibly?

    After all National will want to refocus the public’s attention away from Bill English’s apparent brain fade yesterday which MSM have largely not brought into, and more importantly English’s inactions in having not advised Barclay to come clean from the outset….all impacting on both English’s and Barclay’s integrity in a negative manner.

    Could we see Joyce step into the leadership role, having just delivered the Budget which according to some polls appeared to boost National’s polling? Could we see more pre election financial sweeteners soon to be offered to the public (to be implemented post election result of course when there is less of an obligation for National to follow through)?

    Or will Bill try and reassert himself publicly and request/force the resignation of Barclay, a long term family friend, for which the two have been reported to have been neighbors?

    Only time will tell…..but then again National do not have much time left to make their next step to quell the public’s distaste of having been so openly mislead by the ruling party, which is currently being laid to bare through the Main Stream Media.

    I was however interested to read Barry Soper’s NZ Herald piece this morning http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11879788. Having read a number of Barry Soper’s political pieces through the Herald and his pro National line he came out strongly and I would say pretty much in line with where public sentiment on this matter currently stands.

    This passage in Barry Soper’s Herald article wjich I quote directly does however give cause for concern;

    “Perhaps they’d like to have a look at the case again, given information that the recordings didn’t come from a dictaphone left lying around, as had been claimed, it ‘s said to have come from CCTV camera surreptitiously planted in the MP’s office by a security firm to spy on his staff, which would be an offence under the Crimes Act.”

    For it has the potential to assist Bill English out from the hole that he has dug himself since Todd Barclay confided in him that he had recordings of staff speaking about him, because it contradict’s Bill English’s original statements confirming to the police that Barclay’s recordings were made on a dictaphone, and not stated as from a CCTV camera as alleged this morning by Barry Soper.

    The Privacy Commission has the following publication/guide regarding the use of CCTV’s https://www.privacy.org.nz/assets/Files/Brochures-and-pamphlets-and-pubs/Privacy-and-CCTV-A-guide-October-2009.pdf

    It will be interesting to see if Barry Soper’s sources are correct in that CCTV was installed as opposed to Barclay making use of a dictaphone.

    Either way the Police now have a duty to establish this and be supplied with the actual device and footage/recordings that were used and made. If Barclay has destroyed any of the evidence then there should be further possible ramifications under the Privacy Act, if not through the Crimes Act also.

  15. BM 15

    Won’t make one iota of difference to National support, the public doesn’t seem to care about this sort of stuff. The general view of politicians is that they can be a bit economical with the truth and sometimes they get caught out, it’s no big deal.

    What they do care about though is the Greens announcing raising the refugee quota to 5000.

    Staggeringly dumb politics with what’s currently happening in NZ around immigration and the terror attacks in Europe and the UK.

    I actually reckon National will be up at the next poll.

    • “The public” are intensely interested in this case, BM. Ask any blogger or commenter who has posted on this over the past couple of days how their statistics have behaved – off the scale! Interest is intense, the pressure is intense and soon, there’ll be a loud bang!.

    • RedLogix 15.2

      the public doesn’t seem to care about this sort of stuff.

      So you are telling us the typical right wing voter is venal, amoral and self-serving. We always suspected, now you confirm it. Your candidness is appreciated; can I bookmark this for future reference?

      • BM 15.2.1

        Go for your life.

        In the overall scheme of things and reasons behind who people vote for this would be way down the very bottom of the list.

        Look at John Key he had numerous memory lapses yet Nationals vote increased at every election.

        • Andre 15.2.1.1

          Gosh, what is it about becoming a Nat MP that is so damaging to people’s memory?

        • Robert Guyton 15.2.1.2

          People who vote National have honesty “way down the very bottom of the list”?

          That’s your considered view?

          Sobering admission and deeply saddening thought.

      • Draco T Bastard 15.2.2

        +111

    • Won’t make one iota of difference to National support, the public doesn’t seem to care about this sort of stuff.

      National’s supporters indeed don’t seem to care about their MPs engaging in illegal activities, lying about it to cover it up, and possibly even conspiring to defeat justice. It remains to be seen whether voters in general share that lack of shit-giving.

      • Robert Guyton 15.3.1

        It’s difficult to understand and seems like a disconnect is operating somehow. I wonder if it ties into the position many rugby fans hold, where they know our best players cheat and “get away with stuff” under-cover of the game, but figure, doesn’t matter,’cause we won! I suspect it’s the same “logic” operating.

    • adam 15.4

      Becaue the polls will always save you, they seems to be a bit of a pattern with the polls, somthing bad happens with national – they then get a bump.

      A beige reaction?

      As one of the companies that does the polls is owned by a national party stalwart, and the other company is beholden to a bail out by the political party currently in power.

      Ah the beige revolution – this is how it’s down.

      3
      2
      1

      BM yells conspiracy theory.

      Nope, this is what an observation looks like. It’s no theory, just an observation.

    • left_forward 15.5

      What have refugees in NZ got to do with the terror attack at the London Mosque?

    • Ed 15.6

      Michael Deaker seems to disagree with you.
      And he is a Tory.

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=201848359

  16. peterh 17

    You have to give John Key credit now, he was a far better lair than English is
    my be it was because he did it more often

  17. Barclay – gone by afternoon tea time.

    • weka 18.1

      gone by 1.25pm 😉

      Full statement,

      • Cinny 18.1.1

        But still able to collect a tax payer funded salary for the next 3 months, wonders how many tax payer dollars have been eaten up over this.

        Three staff resigning, secret pay out, on going salary to an MP who will probably be investigated by the police, all the time spent on this issue, meetings etc. And all they do is decide he won’t be standing again, FFS useless gutless. But the good news is, in three months we will have a new government, one that won’t put up with lying scheming MP’s.

      • Ed 18.1.2

        OMG.
        He was inspired by Gerry Brownlee.
        Says it all.

  18. Ovid 19

    “Todd Barclay will not stand at the next election” – Katie Bradford via Twitter.

  19. Banjo 20

    Bill English is “pretty damned hopeless” at telling the truth and his management of this from the start has been pretty damned hopeless too. I have anecdotal evidence that there are too many Leaders/managers/employers in this country with inept management & people skills &. It’s a big problem. We might need to reduce their incomes and work conditions. They’re clearly incapable. Maybe put them on a 90 day trial or something.

  20. Cinny 21

    If anyone wants to tune in to the live stream for the outgoing PM’s statement re Barclay, I’ve found a link here…

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/02/livestream-prime-minister-s-post-cabinet-news-conference.html

    Lol can hear the reporters chatting in the background

  21. Bill English said: “the fallout wasn’t damaging to the party because “these sorts of issues arise commonly in politics” and it had been dealt with quickly.”

    It had been dealt with quickly??????

    For how many months has this issue been festering???

    Dealt with quickly!

    Looking for examples where the PM isn’t being truthful?

    They are coming thick and fast.

  22. patricia bremner 23

    Bill wanted it to be over before the conference.
    Don’t think that will help smooth the rifts that are now showing.
    Interesting groupings happening now!
    Looks like Judith may have lost an offsider.
    Bennett is very quiet! Hardly seen as support for Bill.
    Joyce getting his face out there.
    I think there is more to come yet.
    Good reporting will unearth more yet, and connections are rife.

  23. Penny Bright 24

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/06/patrick-gower-bill-english-has-damaged-his-political-mana.html

    OPINION: Bill English has faced his first political test – and failed.

    “He’s looked shifty on the Todd Barclay issue and there is no question that his political mana has been damaged.”

    Yep – PM Bill English is nowBILLSH*T – Prime Minister for COVERUPS.

    • BILLSH*T

      The best so far. And we can string quite a sentence together now ( will save having to expend cash and energy for any future crony Knighthood Titles …)

      Double Dipper from Dipton BILLSH*T English.

      I like it.

      Its got a certain ‘ ring ‘ to it….

      * And if you say it fast enough ,… it sounds like a Rap number being sung… a bit like another certain Rap number that the Dildo man thought was ‘pretty legal ‘ at the time ….

  24. peterlepaysan 25

    I have said it before on this site. Bill English is a Treasury robot.
    Once again he has demonstrated that (not alternative) fact.

  25. “When one of your employees repeatedly gets up before the media and says something you know is false, then continues making that same assertion for more than a year, and you do nothing, isn’t that kind of a evasion of omission?

    The worst thing here is that English’s main selling point is that he’s a morally upstanding Catholic farmer from Southland”

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/21-06-2017/all-the-untruths-evasions-and-um-bulldust-in-the-todd-barclay-debacle/

  26. “Yesterday morning, English was asked who told him Barclay had made the secret dictaphone recordings. He said he couldn’t remember.

    Now I’m as prone to having my underlings confess possible crimes to me as anyone, but I will assert one thing: I’d always remember the conversation. And I would particularly remember it if I had to recount it to the police in an official statement soon afterward.

    Is it really plausible that English just forgot Barclay telling him he’d made the recordings? It really sounds like the prime minister has been caught in a fabrication of commission. That’s a big deal, and we’ve completely exhausted our thesaurus’s suggested alternatives for “lie”.”

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/21-06-2017/all-the-untruths-evasions-and-um-bulldust-in-the-todd-barclay-debacle/

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