Carter expelled

Written By: - Date published: 7:14 am, October 12th, 2010 - 109 comments
Categories: labour - Tags:

The Labour Party council has decided to expel Chris Carter from the party. While party members should be free to criticise the leadership, Carter went too far. He has repeatedly embarrassed and damaged the party. In doing so, he disrespected every member of the Labour Party – that’s the real crime.

It obviously wasn’t an easy decision for the Council. They took six hours to reach a conclusion. It came down to whether Carter’s actions went beyond legitimate criticism of the leadership into selfish and destructive behaviour. I think Carter’s subsequent behaviour, as much as that stupid letter itself, would have been crucial. His apology was not genuine. His repeated media showboating only served to keep the issue alive and derail Labour’s political agenda by allowing the media to focus on the trivialities of personal scandal, rather than real policy.

109 comments on “Carter expelled ”

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  1. rosy 1
    12 October 2010 at 7:25 am

    And it’s not over yet – Espiner says Carter said he didn’t know he was expelled (he left the meeting early?) and will be taking the matter further *sigh*

  2. IrishBill 2
    12 October 2010 at 7:27 am

    I just heard it being characterised as “more in sorrow than anger”. I think that about sums it up, Carter has done a lot of good for the party and for his electorate but it was untenable for him to stay. Not because he went against Goff but because, as Marty says, he did so by disrespecting the processes of the party. He could have stayed, run his numbers, and fought against the leadership within the party (as Helen Clark did in the 90’s) or he could have left the party, taken support with him, and fought Goff from the outside (as Jim Anderton did). Trying to stay within the party while using outside means like the media to attack Goff was simply not an option. It’s just a bloody sad state of affairs all around.

    • Bored 2.1
      12 October 2010 at 7:39 am

      A leadership coup is a bit like Snakes and Ladders, you either get the right numbers and go up fast, or you go down even faster. Carters mistake was to not just go to the back of the room, keep quiet and start again. Amazing arrogance.

    • lprent 2.2
      12 October 2010 at 8:49 am

      Exactly Irish. It is a pain expelling someone, but in the end Chris left us in the party with very little choice. His behavior was appalling and was showing far more signs of getting worse rather than better. The last thing i want is to have to work my guts out for my favorite party and then have a ego driven loudmouth come and destroy months of effort in a few seconds of idiotic decisions simply because he can.

      Better to cut all ties to the party and take the damage in the short term. Chris can do that crap outside of the party without implicitly claiming my support – because I never support idiot factionalism. It just pisses me off.

  3. The Voice of Reason 3
    12 October 2010 at 7:36 am

    Sad for Carter, good for the party. I suspect Carter will appeal the decision, so it may drag on a little while longer, but really, what other choice did the leadership have? An amateurish solo coup attempt, a complete failure to accept responsibility for his behaviour prior to, at the time, and since, and no effort to apologise to the party members meant there was only going to be one outcome.

    The upside is that Labour have shown some real strength and determination in dealing with Carter. If the MP’s can start doing the same in the house, Goff has a chance of pulling off a stunner next year.

    • Bored 3.1
      12 October 2010 at 7:41 am

      I would like to be wrong about Goff, prepared to eat humble pie if he does pull off a stunner next year, but fat chance, get rid of Goff now and a stunner could happen!

      • The Voice of Reason 3.1.1
        12 October 2010 at 7:52 am

        As always, the question is who would replace Goff and what are their prospects of gaining more public support? I can see a couple of potential leaders in the current caucus (and one currently outside it), but what’s the point of rolling Goff if there is no electoral gain to be made?

        • Bored 3.1.1.1
          12 October 2010 at 7:59 am

          The point is well illustrate by the saga of Bill Rowling, nice guy, but he was never going to win. Goff is the same, a loser. Labour needs to pick a credible alternative and make them a winner, as opposed to leaving what the public (and Labour supporters) regard as a has been loser. Its that or lose at the polls by default.

          • Pascal's bookie 3.1.1.1.1
            12 October 2010 at 8:18 am

            Two problems bored,

            1) no one in caucus seems to want to roll Goff
            2) if they replace Goff now they will be saying Carter was right even after expelling him, the new leader would be mincemeat on that for months.

          • lprent 3.1.1.1.2
            12 October 2010 at 8:37 am

            Goff is the best pair of hands. He is the person who should be leading Labour.

            If you want a media monkey, there is always John Key (at least if it isn’t a serious interview)

            • Tigger 3.1.1.1.2.1
              12 October 2010 at 8:54 am

              Exactly lp.

              But happy for people to write off Goff. A guy at a dinner part I was at a couple of months ago was bashing Celia Wade-Brown, wondering why the left put up such a pathetic candidate (‘she bikes everywhere!’) and laughing at how Prendergast would crush her.

              He who laughs last…

            • Bored 3.1.1.1.2.2
              12 October 2010 at 9:01 am

              So IP and Pascals B, it is a slow walk to the cliff edge blindfolded. The “media monkey’ will be the winner by default.

              • just saying …
                12 October 2010 at 9:30 am

                The point is, if a new leader were selected from the current mps at random he or she would not do worse than Goff and could potentially do better. When things are that bad you’ve gotta at least ask yourself why.

                Or even be bold and see it as an opportunity.

                But yeah I know, Carter blew any chance of a change with his antics.

                Maybe Labour could compromise and introduce co-leadership, not necessarily even gender-based, and get someone with passion and vision up there.

                Like Bored I’m ready willing and keen to be proven wrong, and if Goff undergoes a metamorphisis, will be happy to say so.

          • Eddie 3.1.1.1.3
            12 October 2010 at 8:48 am

            don’t be hard on Rowling. He won more votes than Muldoon twice.

            • Anne 3.1.1.1.3.1
              12 October 2010 at 4:52 pm

              In an MMP electoral environment Muldoon and National probably would have only lasted one term. In 1978 Rowling and Labour won the majority of votes! That changes the ball game for next year doesn’t it.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                12 October 2010 at 5:27 pm

                If we’d had MMP since the 1930s National would hardly have ever been in government.
                The MMP Files [3]: Elections Past and Future

                Entrenched two-party politics began in New Zealand in 1938, an inevitable though surprisingly delayed outcome of the FPP voting system. From 1938-51, the winning party actually got a majority of votes cast. It’s never happened since.

                And specifically on Rowling,

                1978 was in reality a landslide defeat for National.

                History is an amazingly interesting study. It shows all sorts of BS for what it is – crap. This especially true of the FPP voting system and the free-market neoliberal paradigm that’s presently crippling our economy and our peoples.

                • Anne …
                  12 October 2010 at 7:41 pm

                  And isn’t it interesting. The Nats are going all out to return to the FPP system and their media toadies are playing along nicely. Example: TV3 reported tonight that

                  “one in three New Zealanders are in favour of returning to the FPP voting system”.

          • swimmer 3.1.1.1.4
            12 October 2010 at 1:45 pm

            You have no proof that we would be a loser.

    • WOOF 3.2
      12 October 2010 at 1:44 pm

      The pack that runs together eats well. 🙂

  4. Francisco Hernandez 4
    12 October 2010 at 7:47 am

    I am deeply disappointed with this outcome and as a sign of protest I will be withholding my contributions from the Labour Century Fund.

    That’s how far my defiance goes….

    I suppose I could write an anonymous letter, leak it to the media but clumsily make sure it’s traced back to me…

    • The Voice of Reason 4.1
      12 October 2010 at 7:56 am

      Not a very mature response, Francisco. The party is bigger than one MP and this situation is not the party’s fault anyway, so how does helping the Tories by starving Labour of funds change things for the better?

      • comedy 4.1.1
        12 October 2010 at 8:06 am

        Just went right over your head that one ?

        • The Voice of Reason 4.1.1.1
          12 October 2010 at 8:15 am

          Not at all, my comedic friend. I wondered whether Francisco was speaking personally or channelling Carter, but in the absence of anything that identified the comment as satire, I responded as if it was a personal position.

          • comedy 4.1.1.1.1
            12 October 2010 at 8:20 am

            Fair enough, you’re quite right, it’s always hard to tell when people are being serious.

            • Tigger 4.1.1.1.1.1
              12 October 2010 at 8:58 am

              Some posters have established satiric chops which makes them easier to read – is Francisco new, it’s not a name I recognise…

            • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.1.1.2
              12 October 2010 at 5:26 pm

              F.H. is a name I recognise from Labour. Whether its actually the same individual or not, only the mods would be able to guess.

      • Big Bruv 4.1.2
        12 October 2010 at 10:30 am

        Labour are skint again Voice?

        Why not give old Owen a call……..oh, hang on…..

        • The Voice of Reason 4.1.2.1
          12 October 2010 at 10:54 am

          Bit rich you talking about being skint when you don’t pay your own debts, Bruv, but Labour have won elections before with less cash to splash than the Nats, so I’m not too concerned on that front.

          • Big Bruv 4.1.2.1.1
            12 October 2010 at 11:04 am

            Voice

            You are right about Labour having less cash, not that it seems to bother you guys, when you are short you just help yourself to $850,000 of tax payer money.

            • lprent 4.1.2.1.1.1
              12 October 2010 at 12:25 pm

              Which was disputed if it was allowed, but eventually repaid despite still disagreeing with the AG.
              You really are living in the past, a true trilobite of the blog-sphere…

    • Joe Bloggs 4.2
      12 October 2010 at 8:23 am

      great move – I’ll join you Francisco.

      With all the talk of Carter disrespecting the Labour Party, it’s ironic that the Labour Party did not respect Carter enough to call him at the end of the meeting about the outcome and his expulsion. Like the rest of NZ Carter had to read about it in this morning’s papers.

      Labour is a hotbed of anger and frustration when it’s not in power … so now we wait for Carter’s ‘kiss and tell all’ book (out by Xmas, one hopes) for the next dramatic instalment in this sorry episode.

      • The Voice of Reason 4.2.1
        12 October 2010 at 8:30 am

        Yeah, like you’re a Labour party member, JB! The result was on Stuff just after midnight and was commented on here at the Standard at 12.46 (http://thestandard.org.nz/carter-faces-the-music/#comment-258032). Andrew Little said he contacted Carter’s representative immediately after the meeting, so if Carter didn’t know till the morning, it’s his problem, not Labour’s.

        ps, you RWNJ’s might want to co-ordinate your responses better. Comedy thinks Francisco’s comment went right over your head!

        • comedy 4.2.1.1
          12 October 2010 at 8:46 am

          VOR could you explain why I’m a RWNJ ?

          And while you’re at it can you tell me what a left wing loon (LWL) is so I can spot them as well.

  5. Eddie 5
    12 October 2010 at 8:07 am

    and now Carter’s having a cry to every media that will listen. that’s a danger of expulsion. but, then, if he had been suspended or whatever he probably would have acted the same way.

    christ, I wish he would have the selflessness to stop being an embarrassment.

  6. Cnr Joe 6
    12 October 2010 at 8:20 am

    just heard him with Geoff – I’ve got nothing left for the man…’petty, spiteful…vindictive..’ Its himself he’s talking about?

    • prism 6.1
      12 October 2010 at 10:45 am

      That’s how he came over as I listened Cnr Joe. He thinks he should be able to do whatever he wants, even though he’s been inept and tricky. Yes he genuinely felt that Goff is not the one to lead Labour. But trying to roll the leader is a big and difficult task and is the sort of disharmony that the media love to report on. And he gave the media much stuff that damaged Labour to write about. That’s not clever, some might call it stupid. Even if a greater loyalty to the best interests of Labour was his intention, he went about the matter in a way that doesn’t show the necessary strategic planning for a successful politician.

      I think we should look at the Australian Labour move Julia Gillard against Kevin Rudd to see how a successful surgical operation should be managed.
      (Incidentally I didn’t know that the Oz party spells itself as Labor. But this has been the case since 1912. Wikipedia told me the party was influenced by the United States labour movement and a prominent figure in the early history of the party, the American–born King O’Malley, was successful in having the spelling “modernised”)

  7. Fisiani 7
    12 October 2010 at 8:42 am

    Chris was honest, brutally honest, in his assessment of Phil’s chances in 2011. How dare he say what most people think. Honesty and Labour however are like oil and water.
    Come November 2011 Chris will look even smugger than he does now.

    • Tigger 7.1
      12 October 2010 at 11:03 am

      It’s not the what, it’s the how. Critiquing the leadership is fine but how you do it matters.

      If Carter looks smugger than he does now he’ll resemble Key I guess…

    • swimmer 7.2
      12 October 2010 at 1:52 pm

      Fisiani, he is just making it harder for Labour with all his negative comments.

    • Colonial Viper 7.3
      12 October 2010 at 5:28 pm

      How dare he say what most people think.

      What, channeling TVNZ PR now are we?

  8. Daveski 8
    12 October 2010 at 9:12 am

    Getting expelled for criticising the Dear Leader? Surely we should have the Democracy under Attack logo for this thread? Anyway, which of Goff’s kids will be the next leader?

  9. joe90 9
    12 October 2010 at 9:38 am

    Both pleased and sad he’s gone, pleased simply because dissension in the ranks is a very bad thing for any organisation and I reckon he should have been gone two months ago.
    And sad because with his enthusiasm and energy and commitment to his electorate he was bloody good at his job but for whatever reason he decided that he’d play the diva and suddenly he was bigger than the party.
    FFS Chris, you’ve taken all the rope on offer, done a great job necking yourself and now you’re crying about how it’s all gone wrong.

  10. Gina 10
    12 October 2010 at 9:57 am

    I don’t know phill Goff but I spoke to his secretary a Mr Law a few months ago. He was the most difficult rude man I have ever had the misfortune to speak to.

    I was trying to ask him a question and he kept telling me to allow him to speak and implying I was rude when I attempted to ask the question.

    Finally I shut up and listened to him and at the end asked him to please listen to the originial question. It was time to go. He would not even listen to my original question. I got a little mad about that and he really condescended to me. He quite deliberately made me feel like scum. Nasty man who needs to learn to listen to questions. He might not wish to answer but can at least hear the question.
    I was quite surprised because Goff seemed like a nice guy. My instinct tells me this man is not good for Goff or Labour. You can fobb people off in a much nicer manner than that. Record this mans telepohone manner to find out just what a liability someone like this is. I’m sure he would have feigned politeness if he had thought I was more than the nobody his treatment implied.

    • Cnr Joe 10.1
      12 October 2010 at 1:13 pm

      put it in writing

    • swimmer 10.2
      12 October 2010 at 1:56 pm

      Gina, you should write to Phil Goff and tell him what you told us. I’m so sorry that you went through that, nobody needs the hassle of dealing with nasty employees.

      • Gina 10.2.1
        12 October 2010 at 2:53 pm

        If I write to Phill Goff will Mr Law read the letter/email and decide whether Goff see’s it or not.

      • Kubra 10.2.2
        12 October 2010 at 5:30 pm

        Everyone I know who’s ever come in contact with Terry Law,and there are many, is amazed by his unrelenting rudeness. He’s never changed, despite numerous complaints, has worked there about 8 years.

  11. Anthony C 11
    12 October 2010 at 10:02 am

    The whole thing is a mess and there have been no winners, what Carter did was a dick-move, but there is no doubting he was hung out to dry because defending him would have expended to much political capital. I didn’t mind Goff before this incident but my opinion of him dropped after he caved and turned on his own MP’s to give the media blood.

  12. Sylvia 12
    12 October 2010 at 10:08 am

    Like Francisco, I am very disappointed that Chris Carter has been expelled from the Party. He had already been appropriately punished for his unworthy parliamentary behaviour by being expelled, by his colleagues, from caucus. This next step seems almost hysterical. As a Labour Party activist I do not consider that he disrespected me.

    • lprent 12.1
      12 October 2010 at 10:53 am

      As a party activist, I consider that he has been getting in my way. For the last year, every time we start making some headway, we get a bloody Chris Carter story pushing our good work to oblivion. Obviously he was being targeted by the RWNJ’s and that homophobic wanker Duncan Garner.

      I did my part in defense. However Chris was showing the most stupid disregard for political commonsense. You’d almost think that he was encouraging people to take potshots at him. It wasn’t good for the party and it wasn’t good for me wasting time on someone who kept sticking his head up in the line of fire for no apparent reason that was good for the party.

      To skulk around trying to resurrect the idiotic factional in-fighting of the 80’s and early 90’s was simply for the last straw. That is intolerable… His subsequent actions don’t lead me to ANY charity. Frankly I feel zero sympathy for Chris Carters based on his recent actions. I do for Peter Kaiser.

      • mickysavage 12.1.1
        12 October 2010 at 11:18 am

        Agreed LP. I hope Peter stays on.

        I kept thinking that Chris should STFU. His public statements kept making it more and more difficult for NZ Council to let him retain his membership.

        I also wish that the debate would get away from the opinion polls and how Labour will lose under Phil.

        The polls suggested that Labour would be in trouble in Mt Albert. National was trounced.

        The polls, admittedly dicey ones, said Len and Banksy were neck and neck. Banks was hammered.

        My very strong impression is that the labour activist network is far stronger than National’s. The only advantage the tories have is money and Key’s teflon coated persona, although the chips are starting to show.

        The next election is by no means decided. I wish Chris would stop talking like it is.

  13. Sylvia 13
    12 October 2010 at 10:17 am

    The whole thing could have ended two months ago if the party had not wanted to pursue disciplinary action in addition to expulsion from caucus. Not sure its fair to blame Chris for the way the whole thing dragged on.

    • The Voice of Reason 13.1
      12 October 2010 at 10:25 am

      Carter wouldn’t front for two months because he was on sick leave, Sylvia, and he’s considering appealing, which would drag it out even further. The party has been pretty considerate to him, kind, even, especially given the damage he’s tried to inflict on the party you and I both campaign for.

    • Maynard J 13.2
      13 October 2010 at 1:41 am

      Carter has dragged it on – the ‘tell all book’, the repetition of complaints that are an internal matter – I’m sorry but there is no one else to blame but Chris.

      I gather the council took some time to come to a decision, and it was not unanimous – but expelled he was, so the majority in the council agrees with his explusion. I imagine the majority of Labour Party members would also agree, but of course there are those who won’t.

      What are your reasons for supporting someone who has damaged the party with poorly thought out and selfish actions, and then exacerbated the situation in every way possible since then?

  14. Herodotus 14
    12 October 2010 at 10:32 am

    Yet another MP who lies (unlike most CC has been found out), yet Chris has gone further he has not displayed contrition or any level of sincerity but has displayed stronger than normal levels for an MP of Narcissism, and after all these failures of character there are many who will still come with excuses to his defense.

    • Anne 14.1
      12 October 2010 at 11:34 am

      A tidy nutshell Herodotus, although it’s a bit unfair to tar “most” with dishonesty. There are plenty who have integrity.

      After reading about the threats Carter made to the Council last night, the last vestiges of my sadness at his demise have evaporated. He’d better be careful. The libel laws in this country are reasonably robust.

  15. Gina 15
    12 October 2010 at 11:06 am

    “especially given the damage he’s tried to inflict on the party you and I both campaign for”

    I think its the media inflicting damage from anything they wish to use against labour. I recommend not cowtowing to them. There has been damage but its because of the way the media spin the situation. Carter said recently that it is unprecedented to sack MP’s for challenging the leadership. Now if labour had said to the media a few months ago the whole issue would more than likely be over. Bad PR. Too much concentration on your look as opposed to real substance thus Goff etc loose their pesonal essence whatever that actually is. But Goff must be who he actually is whether thats good or bad for the party. If Goff has real integrity and the qualities of a leader then it will show. The pretence of ingtegrity is tiresome.

    Mind you look at Tony Blair. His personality wreaked integrity but he didn’t actually have any (Integrity). But he was genuinely resolute and that attracted a big following for a while.

    However Carter has been threatening the party with a book near the next election if he didnt get what he wanted. Now that is treason. His last move of attempted blackmail is vengeful in the extreme and deserving of expulsion. But hearing ridiculous statements like he has a mental health problem from labour instead of the truth that ” He’s very stressed by the media fiasco etc etc and needs a break” just makes Goff and labour look weird. Whoever invents this stuff is a liability in the PR department. I wonder if its the person who wanted to make flouresent light bulbs with mercury in them compulsory in NZ. Another policy which seemed totally at odds with the most basic common sense.

    • The Voice of Reason 15.1
      12 October 2010 at 11:42 am

      “But hearing ridiculous statements like he has a mental health problem from labour instead of the truth that ” He’s very stressed by the media fiasco etc etc and needs a break” just makes Goff and labour look weird.”

      It wasn’t Labour who asked for sick leave, it was Carter. Sick leave due to stress is a mental health issue, so it’s not unfair of MP’s to characterise it as such. Even Carter is now referring to his behaviour as ‘a moment of madness’.

      I stand by the claim that Carter has damaged the party. He’s been around long enough to know what happens when an MP leaks allegations to the media and I think he was perfectly prepared to allow short term damage in pursuit of a long term gain. It’s just that he had no support within caucus and no mandate from the wider party to do what he did. He made himself look foolish and Goff look strong, resulting in the exact opposite of what he was trying to acheive.

      Carter is a petulant, immature man, who seems totally unable to face up to his own failings. Hell, even tossers like Laws and Henry have had the intelligence and insight to say they got it wrong, but Carter seems oblivious to the need to say sorry. He will not be missed.

    • prism 15.2
      12 October 2010 at 12:00 pm

      Gina did you mean about Tony Blair that he reeked integrity? I think what you said was right – he wreaked the integrity of Labour. I agree it’s not enough to be a fresh-faced youngish chap with a winning way. More solid Labour values and less glam was needed in Britain, and he affected our Labour, watching him trying The Third Way.

      • Gina 15.2.1
        12 October 2010 at 1:09 pm

        Prism
        My spelling is not good due to cognitive problems and ill health due to elemential mercury poisoning. I probably should not comment but imagine I’ll get kicked out if my comments get too bad. A burst mercury thermometer at age 15 while pasturisng milk wreaked my health and life.
        Since that day I have found reading writing and just about everything incredibly difficult but surprised everyone including myself when I topped an IQ test. I just have problems gettting new information in and out so to speak and putting sentences, paragraphs etc together. And I’m slow. It has slowed everything down. I’ll try to be more careful and that might help.

        I have done a bit of research into mercury poisoning hence my abhorence of Labours light bulb policy.
        One of those light bulbs breaking on a carpet in a babies room in the right circumstances i.e. poor ventilation with small room size could lead to life long health problems.

        • The Voice of Reason 15.2.1.1
          12 October 2010 at 2:34 pm

          Good on you Gina! I think I can safely say that the majority of posters and readers here are more interested in your ideas than your spelling. The few times I’ve seen people pulled up about bad grammar or spelling on the Standard is when they say something foolish like ‘I’m much more cleverer than you’ and get roasted for gettting it wrong.

          There are a few spell check programs available on the net that help you edit as you go, too. Sadly my work PC only lets me use the American spellings so I’ve turned it off and I rely on my own imperfect memory to get it right. And sadly, I find most mistakes I make are due to failing eye sight. Bugger my advancing years!

          Anyhoo, keep commenting in your own way and in your own voice. Don’t worry about getting banned either. Even the most brutal of the team on the top floor of Standard Towers give clear warnings before hitting the kill button!

        • prism 15.2.1.2
          12 October 2010 at 6:15 pm

          That’s tough Gina. If you keep writing and reading here it’s a great stimulation to the mental processes. Look forward to seeing your future comments. As for reeking and wreaking I thought you might have deliberately chosen the spelling about Tony Blair – bit of a cardboard man I thought and you seem to feel the same way.

      • Gina 15.2.2
        12 October 2010 at 1:15 pm

        Yep reeked sounds like the correct spelling. I’ll go with that.

  16. Pascal's bookie 16
    12 October 2010 at 11:57 am

    More details and quotes here:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10680004

    from the LP announcement; the reasons:

    a) Preparing the written statement in the terms that he did, and circulating it to the Press Gallery;

    b) Initially denying, including to colleagues, that he was responsible for the anonymous circulation of the document to the Press Gallery, and suggesting that named others were likely responsible for its circulation;

    c) Eventually admitting (after being confronted with the evidence) publicly that he prepared the written statement and circulated it to the Press Gallery;

    d) Purporting to disclose in the written statement that the Party is broke, by which it is understood that the Party is unable to meet its financial obligations, and further implying that the Party is incapable of withstanding the costs of a by-election;

    e) In television interviews first broadcast on Thursday 29 July, calling for the resignation of the Leader of the Parliamentary Labour Party without having sought at any stage to invoke the Party’s internal processes to advance that view; and

    f) Giving an overall public impression through his actions and comments that the Party is divided, unprepared for and unlikely to win the next General Election.

    Emph mine.

    ffs.

  17. Gina 17
    12 October 2010 at 12:22 pm

    Carter is quoted in a recent article as saying that he did not have mental health issues and that he had been stressed as the reason for his leave. The way “Mental Health Issues” was used as an excuse for Carter’s actions did not sound like stress even though there is a link technically. A moment of madness is a wide term, which many people use. It could apply to just about anything.
    This is one advantage Key has over Labour. He said publicly that he did not believe Carter had mental health problems so its pretty obvious how these statements came over. I had to reluctantly agree with him on that. I don’t trust Key but on some occasions he can speak plainly with common sense. That appeals to people. Its makes people think he has good intentions towards them which unfortunately he doesn’t.
    We do/or did live in a democracy and blind party loyalty is now responsible for Labour acquiescing to trash that democracy. The problem is that whenever an MP speaks independently against the trends of the from the party thus the damage to image of the party is done.
    Its a very good way for media and through them big business to limit the political dialogue and control who is in our parties and what they dare say. As I said the final act of attempting to blackmail Labour was not forgivable but I stand by his right to free speech which the media seem to try to discourage through over the top reactions with extreme consequences for elected MP’s. They seem to work at getting democratically elected left wing representatives fired. Whereas Key just needs to say that he can do what he wants and they let him. Key and the right are entitled to free speech but lefties are not. We need to challenge that somehow.

  18. burt 18
    12 October 2010 at 12:34 pm

    So the book has been started then… just waiting for the next few txt messages to start the second chapter.

  19. SHG 19
    12 October 2010 at 1:03 pm

    Is Carter well? And I don’t mean “upset, depressed, or angry” – I mean is he physically healthy?

    Why do I ask? The paranoia, vindictiveness, and obsession with what appear to be petty grudges, and in a person that many describe as having been a warm friendly guy… I won’t go in to unpleasant personal details, but having cared for someone with brain cancer it sounds awfully familiar. Of course all my perceptions of Carter’s behaviour are coloured by Goff and Little’s statements and the way the whole affair has been portrayed in the mainstream media, but I have personally witnessed a warm friendly person turn into a paranoid vindictive person obsessed with grudges over the course of a year or two before the final conclusion, and the similarity struck me this morning reading about Carter’s “I know your secrets” threats.

    • Cnr Joe 19.1
      12 October 2010 at 1:27 pm

      brain cancer now

      heh – the Honourable Prime Minister and Minister of Indian Tourism – Eeyore the Jonkey – say’s ‘ well look, slurp, I don’t believe he really has a brain tumour, slurp, its really probably only grey fluff that’s blown in his head by mistake and if he really did we’d all know about it so I guess it’s just a desperate Phil Goff trying to blow grey fluff into our heads…..

  20. Anne 20
    12 October 2010 at 1:24 pm

    @ SHG
    I think it’s something that has been slowly building up since the last election. I recall a Labour MP saying that all the other MPs had adapted to be being in opposition except Chris Carter. I also wonder if his close friendship with Helen Clark may not have helped. I understand she was his mentor from the start of his political career so perhaps it was always going to be hard for him to accept another Labour leader. When the shit hit the fan over his ministerial expenses then it was all down-hill from there…

    • SHG 20.1
      12 October 2010 at 1:50 pm

      @Anne
      I’d be much happier if the explanation is that Carter is just a precious little princess who couldn’t cope with the fact that his patron and his expense account had been taken away from him!

  21. ianmac 21
    12 October 2010 at 1:37 pm

    Is Richard Worth still a member of the National Party?

    • burt 21.1
      12 October 2010 at 3:20 pm

      Look over there – they did it too.

      • The Voice of Reason 21.1.1
        12 October 2010 at 3:26 pm

        Did what, Burt? Oh, that’s right, we don’t get to know why a Minister got fired.

      • burt 21.1.2
        12 October 2010 at 3:57 pm

        Look over here, our guy is real bad but your guy was worse so what ours did was OK. Get back to us when you have your 6th birthday.

        • r0b 21.1.2.1
          12 October 2010 at 6:30 pm

          What is your problem Burt? “Labour did it too” is pretty much the only thing you ever say here. Oh – that and attacking anyone who says anything remotely “National did it too” (as above). Spot the inconsistency much?

  22. gobsmacked 22
    12 October 2010 at 4:09 pm

    So, at the weekend Labour – and the broad left – gets a big boost from local elections, especially in Auckland. Chris Carter manages to get on Q & A, and make a few minor headlines, doesn’t quite steal the show. But he tried his best.

    Yesterday John Key makes a terrible gaffe at his weekly press conference (re- Nobel Peace Prize), and gets away with it thanks to Chris Carter hogging the headlines.

    Today John Key struggles in the House on the economy, other Ministers flounder, and the media won’t bother with any of that, thanks to (stop me if you’ve heard this one) … Chris Carter.

    The lead story on TV One tonight will be Chris Carter and his “17 names”.

    Gerry Brownlee and Rodney Hide could be out the back drowning kittens, and nobody would ever know.

    Thanks, Chris.

    • burt 22.1
      12 October 2010 at 7:17 pm

      I agree with that.

    • Draco T Bastard 22.2
      12 October 2010 at 8:22 pm

      Even if Chris didn’t do anything they could still be out back and no one would know as the MSM just doesn’t report on the stuff ups that NACT makes. They report every little thing about Labour and nothing about NACT. This cannot be a coincidence as it’s too consistent.

  23. hope 23
    12 October 2010 at 5:26 pm

    “Is Carter well? And I don’t mean “upset, depressed, or angry” – I mean is he physically healthy?

    “Why do I ask? The paranoia, vindictiveness, and obsession with what appear to be petty grudges, and in a person that many describe as having been a warm friendly guy…..” from SHG

    I too have noticed changes in the person we know as Chris Carter. I thought that his thyroid gland was on the blimp and that he was acquiring an over- active thyroid (hyperthyroidism) or Graves Disease as it is known. There are 16 symptoms of this, one of which is weight loss, and Mr. Carter had begun to look quite gaunt. Other symptoms are acute anxiety and stress as well as paranoia.A person may not know they have it until they have a blood test. People are not aware of the havoc to one’s physical and mental wellbeing ( and personality) a small gland like the thyroid(which governs one’s entire metabolism) can cause when it goes out of balance. It can be treated. I hope Mr Carter’s peace of mind is restored eventually.

    • Colonial Viper 23.1
      12 October 2010 at 6:33 pm

      Good questions hope. People close to Carter, family members etc, will be best placed to make a call on whether or not there have been significant changes over the last 12 months.

      • burt 23.1.1
        12 October 2010 at 10:37 pm

        Perhaps he is suffering from separation anxiety disorder.

        Separation anxiety disorder is a psychological condition in which an individual experiences excessive anxiety regarding separation from home or from people to whom the individual has a strong emotional attachment (like a father and mother).

    • Draco T Bastard 23.2
      12 October 2010 at 8:24 pm

      He’s just been off work for two months on stress leave. I’m sure he went to see a doctor and the doctor should have picked up on that idea (at least, we hope so).

    • Sunny 23.3
      13 October 2010 at 8:46 am

      @hope
      If your thyroid is overactive then your body is flooded with adrenaline. Your heart rate will soar day and night. as a result sleep is impossible with all the usual and expected personality results from severe sleep deprivation. It is essential to sleep, so if nothing else works get enough sleeping tablets so that you can even if your heart rate is up around 120 bpms!

      For anyone out there with Grave’s who wants to try something other than having their thyroid ripped out or nuked, ‘treated’… take the minimum amount of carbimozole you can to reduce symptoms, get a naturapath to establish the safe level for magnesium supplements which can help with the physical tremors, (as can propranalin which doesn’t seem to have much in the way of side effects) stay off all caffeine, take at least 4 grams of mercury free (not mercury tested) fish oil caps a day and get your Vitamin D3 levels checked by your DR. They will almost certainly be wildly depleted (Graves pts have less ability to convert sunlight into Vit D3.) You should then get your levels up to at least 100 by taking Vitmain D3 an amzaingly cheap and effective supplement your Dr can prescribe. Why this all seems to works is down to reducing inflammation, which improves blood flow, esp. to volatile little glands like the thyroid.

  24. fatty 24
    12 October 2010 at 7:02 pm

    “His repeated media showboating only served to keep the issue alive and derail Labour’s political agenda by allowing the media to focus on the trivialities of personal scandal, rather than real policy.”

    I see it as he’s derailed a train that is going to nowhere….he said what us (possible) Labour voters have been saying for a while now, distance from Nats policies are needed, grow some balls, take on the GST issue with at least a real statement, FFS…do something.
    I know its too early to be exposing new policy, but JK/Nat and Goff/Labour are one in the same from my viewpoint…and I hate JK/Nat.

    • The Voice of Reason 24.1
      12 October 2010 at 8:16 pm

      You’ll get some indication of Labour’s direction soon, fatty. The annual conference isn’t that far away and policy is definately on the agenda. Probably a good thing they got Carter out of the way before then, eh?

      • fatty 24.1.1
        12 October 2010 at 8:33 pm

        I really hope so…I can see why Carter had to go, the way he did it and all…I just hope the points Carter raised are not forgotten in the media hype, because he raised the issues that have prevented a lot of people I know from voting Labour. His actions may seem to be a little insane, but his message was very sane.

        I think for many of us class is still *the* issue, at the moment Labour seems to be focusing on identity politics, the lower class feel like our voice is not being projected by any of the parties, including the Greens. I had high hopes for Goff when he came in and his first speech suggested a move towards the traditional left, but have been left feeling disappointed ever since.

        Maybe its just MMP and I should get used to it, will we always have Nat and Lab fighting for the middle/undecided, while ACT and the Greens mop up the edges for them?…I hope not, but I have my suspicions.

        I look forward to the annual conference.

  25. comedy 25
    12 October 2010 at 7:46 pm

    “I know its too early to be exposing new policy, but JK/Nat and Goff/Labour are one in the same from my viewpoint…and I hate JK/Nat.”

    I suggest you vote for someone else then…….. and a word of advice don’t waste energy on the hating.

    • Colonial Viper 25.1
      12 October 2010 at 8:07 pm

      and a word of advice don’t waste energy on the hating.

      Blogosphere wisdom. Very true, nonetheless.

    • fatty 25.2
      12 October 2010 at 8:14 pm

      Cheers for the insightful advice Comedy, but you’re too late, I took that advice at the last election….along with thousands of other voters.

      Perhaps someone has a worthy comment to make on the issues I posted, specifically about distancing Labour from National.

      If you are just going to post a suggestion as simplistic and predictable as what Comedy just gave, then don’t bother.

      As for who I hate, I’ll keep hating National and I know that won’t change on the advice of some who’s best effort is “I suggest you vote for someone else then”.

      I see the irony in this, because this blog is nothing but a National hate site (a favorite pastime of mine and easy pickings) …I was trying to open it up and move the posts to ‘what should Labour do, rather than look how shit National is’….perhaps its the wrong thread, is there one on here? Please tell me there is

      • fatty 25.2.1
        12 October 2010 at 8:15 pm

        ditto for Colonial Viper

      • Draco T Bastard 25.2.2
        12 October 2010 at 8:44 pm

        What the left should thread pop up every now and then. Such comments also happen. But as for this being a National hate site…no.

        One of the important things about media/journalism is that they are there to communicate what’s happening to the populace so that people, especially politicians, can be held to account. To do this it is essential that those things which are immoral, say the Gerry Brownlee Enabling Act, be reported with all the ramifications made known. This is one of the few sites that actually does this to National. The MSM certainly don’t which is why most people don’t have a very good idea as to what’s happening to our country and how it’s being destroyed by National to enrich them and their rich mates.

      • Colonial Viper 25.2.3
        12 October 2010 at 9:04 pm

        OK, I’ll bite. Your question is – what should Labour do?

        Stand for what they believe in and do not give an inch on their values. Don’t be afraid of taking wealth generation very seriously – as well as wealth redistribution. Talk about fairness, opportunity for all and social justice as critical issues facing us. Be determined to reduce social and economic inequality in the country. Reconnect in a serious way with workers: the 3/4 of NZ’ers who between them only hold 1/4 (and declining) of the country’s wealth. Move back to a very strongly progressive tax system and ensure that it removes all impetus for asset bubble speculation. Reconnect with and revitalise the union movement as an underlying engine of the productive, innovative economy. Create the conditions to bring about a real living wage for all. Reduce the % of the economy that the finance and banking sector represents in favour of home grown advanced productive enterprise. Dramatically increase the productivity per NZ worker, and ensure that worker gets a fair share of the returns. Draw a line in the sand that anything over 3% unemployment is not just undesirable but unacceptable, economically and societally. Reduce public and private reliance on debt created bank money. Ensure that social capital is valued just as much as financial capital. Throw GDP out as our main measure of economic activity and replace it with GNP per capita as well as other measures. Create expectations and supports so that every able person can contribute their utmost to society – whether it be through paid employment or in other ways – while those not able to work are well protected and cared for. Support the weak, the vulnerable, the disenfranchised in society to the greatest extent possible and give them ways to fully participate in the society that they are members of. Protect the sovereignty and pride of our country, its people and its economy. Demonstrate why NZ has always held its head high in pride of place in the international community. Establish civics education for all, re-energise public broadcasting in the true sense of the term, while enforcing the highest standards of impartiality, analysis and reporting in the news media. Give young New Zealanders every reason to stay and strive to create successful, happy lives in this country, instead of Australia.

        Shall I go on, I can if you want.

  26. fatty 26
    12 October 2010 at 10:20 pm

    Draco T Bastard – cheers for the heads up, I’ll look out for it… I realise the purpose of this site,Its probably the posts I’m attracted to has something to do with it.

    Colonial Viper – thats the sort of post I wanted to see…It pretty much has everything in there that concerns me plus some interesting ideas that I haven’t given much thought to….being a student, the loans scam affects me big time and makes your last sentence particularly relevant.
    Are you concerned, or do you feel these issues are not being addressed by Goff at the moment?….Do you consider Goff to be the person who will bring about these changes?
    Thanks for taking the time….feel free to go on

  27. swimmer 27
    13 October 2010 at 7:54 am

    I’m going to butt in and say that I think Goff will take all of those things into consideration. 🙂

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