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Convoy protest 26/2/22

Written By: - Date published: 6:05 am, February 26th, 2022 - 232 comments
Categories: covid-19 - Tags: , , ,

Day 19

 

Radicalisation in real time (Dr Michael Daubs, Newsroom)

Parliamentary Grounds occupation and mandates: Analysis, and News Reporting lists of articles for 23/2/22 (The Democracy Project)

Figureheads and factions: the key people at the parliament occupation (Toby Manhire, The Spinoff)

Police wave white flag as occupiers dig in – why parliament stalemate won’t end anytime soon (Marc Daalder, Newsroom)

List of reasons for Convoy 2022 NZ (NZ Truckies FB)

Letter of Demand (from protest organisers)

Newsroom: ‘Splintered realities’: How NZ convoy lost its way

Stuff: Inside the disorienting, contradictory swirl of the convoy, as seen through its media mouthpiece,

 

232 comments on “Convoy protest 26/2/22 ”

  1. Good Morning.

    Trying to set the tone for today’s discussion of Camp Covid:

    Lovely satire from Canada.

    Honestly, if I couldn’t laugh, then I think I’d cry at the level of stupidity displayed by my fellow NZers. Tin foil hats anyone?

  2. PsyclingLeft.Always 2

    "There's actually been quite a few people who are getting really, really sick," Brad Flutey said in a video on Telegram that is now circulating on Twitter.

    "My advice to everyone down there that might actually be something to do with some devices so you are going to have to find some way to stay off-site every now and then so you can take care of yourself."

    "We are going to take care of those devices."

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/02/covid-19-anti-mandate-protester-brad-flutey-admits-quite-a-few-getting-really-sick-at-parliament.html

    Brad Flutey part of “security”…literally the inmates taking over the asylum. Could be sad (well it is actually is SAD ) but these people need to get gone…and get psychiatric help. ones I feel most for are the kids…They aint got a choice !

  3. PsyclingLeft.Always 3

    When two protesters told her, “Take off your mask – I want to see your pretty smile,” she immediately moved to stand closer to co-workers. Speaking an hour before her next shift, Carrie is hesitant about returning to the supermarket, and has considered quitting. On her previous shift, she’d been “bombarded by a few nasty people” and felt drained afterwards. “I literally just wanted to cry when I got home,” she says. “This is the first shift that I’m dreading. It’s scary … I just don’t want to go in there.”

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/22-02-2022/supermarket-staff-on-serving-protesters-its-scary-i-just-dont-want-to-go-in-there

    Theres the Sad….the Mad….also the Bad AND Dangerous. End the “protest” !!

    • I really do think, in the interests of all concerned, the kids, the demented, the covid tourists. even the alt-right, the police need to end this farce soon. Before it becomes even more than a super spreader event.

      People are going to get seriously ill inside Camp Covid.

      • Peter 4.1.1

        And they'll be seeking the help of the state medical system they don't trust, provided by the communist government they despise, to look after them. Unless they can get someone from the loopy doctors or alternative medicine groups to work some magic.

  4. Re the beliefs of the protestors from a Twitterer.

    @phyllisofickle

    [unlinked quote deleted]

    • weka 5.1

      I've deleted the unlinked quote. If you want to know how to cite or link to twitter, please ask.

    • Shanreagh 5.2

      I can no longer link, as I no longer have the exact quote.

      The gist of the quote, which was only extracted and placed in part, the part that was relevant,

      was that it was a sad time being around to see people fooled like we are seeing down at the protest.

      I do know how to quote/cite but only wanted to quote part in my reply here while giving a link to where it could be found.

      • weka 5.2.1

        But it can't be found. Look at your link now, it's not visible. It takes sometimes minutes or hours for someone's tweet to disappear down their TL.

        You have to link. If you don't want to embed the tweet, then just copy and paste what you want and put the actual link via the link tag. It won't embed that way.

  5. Peter 6

    No doubt the tin foil hats thing will go global. The way things work that'll have New Zealanders categorised in the 'hillbilly' camp. Any such classification that we are a nation of halfwits and simpletons can't really be quibbled with given the evidence of the numbers who believe bizarre things and have bizarre attitudes. The ODT editorial comments about understanding freedom encapsulates the befuddlement.

    "It is, at best, a rag-tag bunch of different groups of people (Nazis and members of the alt-right included) united by misinformation and a sense of anger and frustration at what they perceive to be the eradication of their "freedoms". What is clear, however, is just how shallow and childish such an understanding of "freedom" is. The protesters’ flimsy and narrow-minded view of freedom is a uniquely selfish and self-centred one, lacking entirely in regard for the wider community, especially the vulnerable and immunocompromised. It is the understanding of freedom a child might have — a toddler who cannot fathom why he is not allowed to run out into the open road. It’s also ironic that despite the seagull’s chorus of "freedom, freedom" the protesters don’t understand how their actions are curtailing the freedoms of those around them — the freedom of Wellingtonians to get to work, to study, walk, or drive."

    Not that I think most don't understand how they take away the freedom of others – they simply don't care. The 'freedom' mantra might be quoted as if some sort of sacred touchstone by some, they might get it, but their freedom certainly supersedes the freedom of others.

    Oh well, those in that camp will take their ideals and bags of crystals go back to suburbia and when they find developers are going to build nine storey apartment blocks over their back fences? I'll enjoy seeing them fight for the freedom of the developers.

    https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/selfish-idea-freedom-stuff-nightmares

  6. Ad 7

    Remember last year when storming the Auckland Harbour Bridge was fine for thousands of people, and then straight afterwards the Minister wrote to the NZTA requiring them to prove whether a lane could be set aside for actual people to use?

    Now here we have plenty on the left and right going "stop these people going over the bridge"! Stop the prole antivaxxers!

    The Minister views these people as essentially nothing more than NAZI sympathisers, therefore they have no civic rights.

    Minister, you're a hypocrite.

    • Muttonbird 7.1

      A lane for cyclists, benefiting health, both physical and mental vs a lane for tinfoil hat wearing antivaxxers.

      Yeah, exactly the same!

    • Belladonna 7.2

      Not fine for me. I condemned the actions of the cyclists 'storming' the harbour bridge. Just as I'll condemn the actions of the protestors walking across (if it happens – no walkers ATM)

      I felt that the police should have been much more active in preventing the cyclist crossing (but white-middle-class-litigious people are a much less attractive target). The attempt to stop them was token at best. The whole lot of them should have been issued with the standard fine for cycling on a highway.

      I'll be interested to see how the police handle this one. Lots of police in groups at the side of the motorway this morning, strategizing (had to cross the HB and back again before 10am)

      I don't think that it's a civil right for anyone to shut down a national highway.

  7. The Chairman 8

    People power will be evident today.

    Nationwide protests

    • Robert Guyton 8.1

      If Covid sweeps the country and people (children, grandchildren, grandparents, vulnerable friends etc.) die, will the attitude of those who have lost friends & family toward antivaxxers/protesters change, do you think?

      Will the "irritated-by-tinfoil-hat-wearers" mood become something far more decisive, do you think?

      • weka 8.1.1

        covid sweeping the country and people dying is on all of us. Labour have lifted restrictions, many of us are still spreading covid for non-essential reasons. Singling out the freedom protestors and blaming them is misguided, really unhelpful, and going to take us to a darker place.

        • Belladonna 8.1.1.1

          Yep. Out in Auckland this morning. Seeing plenty of 'ordinary' people (i.e. not part of protest groups), in cafes, gathering together at parks and beaches. Masks worn inside most places – not, of course, cafes), but probably around 30% masked on the street (up from ca. %5 in December last year).

          Yes, there are anti-vax, anti-protest people amongst us. But, equally, fully vaxed and boosted can still spread Omicron.

          • Bearded Git 8.1.1.1.1

            Nobody wearing masks here at the cricket in CHCH ….but then it is outside and there is a raging southerly blowing

        • The Chairman 8.1.1.2

          Thankyou weka for your balanced comment at 12.08.

        • Robert Guyton 8.1.1.3

          I didn't single out and blame the protesters for the spread of Covid.

          I'm asking whether, in the event of widespread harm, those who profess opposition to vaccination/mask wearing etc. might wear the anger of those affected seriously by the virus.

          • weka 8.1.1.3.1

            I thought your comment was ambiguous enough to be taken either way. But even with the second meaning, this is still hugely problematic and needs push back. If the general public, or parts of it, start to perceive freedom protestors as to blame for deaths, that's not going to end well. And it's just wrong, the perception. May as well direct their anger at the students in Dunedin or the people who chose to holiday in Queentown from Auckland. Or Ardern and Labour for lifting too many restrictions too soon. Or the people clamouring to open everything up. It's hypocrisy to blame the protestors, who are but one group of people in NZ putting others at risk.

            • Robert Guyton 8.1.1.3.1.1

              " If the general public, or parts of it, start to perceive freedom protestors as to blame for deaths, that's not going to end well. "

              That was my point, weka.

              • weka

                yes, and I came along and said we need to push back on the idea and I think that push back needs to be loud and strong. We can see Muttonbird arguingt today for two NZs, those who can be excused for causing deaths (because they're too immature to know better) and those who should be condemned (according to MB's politics).

                tbh, it was hard to know what your point was to TC (but I don't think you were advocating people jump into blame mode).

            • McFlock 8.1.1.3.1.2

              A lot of folks already blame and are angry towards those groups.

              I'm still on the fence on opening things up – I wouldn't be surprised if the govt expected widespread breaches to make it all a farce if they kept with L3/L4 for omicron. Might or some other factor might have made the traffic light system the one more likely to have higher distancing and vaccination and masks than just keeping with the levels. But I wouldn't be surprised if they were doing it in part to placate the tertiary education sector, too – international enrolments. So… yeah.

        • Muttonbird 8.1.1.4

          Would have thought the Parliament camp and freedom marches were non-essential.

          The rest of us, having done our bit, are just trying to live as best we can and, know, being free.

          • weka 8.1.1.4.1

            a damn sight more essential than student parties or holidays in Queenstown. The rest of us include the ones who actually don't care that much about the public health, or who erroneously believe that if we all get omicron sooner rather than later we can go back to normal sooner.

            • Muttonbird 8.1.1.4.1.1

              The students were asked to stop. They stopped. I don't agree with non essential travel to Queenstown, but how much risk is there in that if people follow the health measures.

              One this which sets the antivax/antimandate crowd part is their absolute refusal to adhere to any health measures.

              That is what makes them more dangerous.

              • weka

                There was no covid in Queenstown, now there is. If you looked at the locations of interest it was all airplane flights and entertainment venues.

                The students stopped but after some of them became infected. Fucking idiots. Some of them then tried to organise parties for the infected people. Callous disregard for public health.

                They're all just as dangerous. The virus doesn't care what people believe, it takes advantage of what people do.

                • Muttonbird

                  We're talking about teenagers here, right? Not known for making the best decisions.

                  We're also taking about teenagers who have had the their final years at school heavily impacted and dutifully sat through it without complaint.

                  • weka

                    Ok, so you want to make excuses for some parts of society, and you want to condemn other parts. I'm pointing out that the virus doesn't care about your judgements or mine. Right now there are opportunities for slowing the spread of omicron and there are a number of groups of people in NZ that are helping the virus along.

                    • Muttonbird

                      I think there's a strong argument that grown adults should be expected to make better decisions than teenagers, yes.

                    • weka

                      again, the virus doesn't care what you're arguments are.

                    • Muttonbird

                      Yes, and student parties have stopped. The maskless, antivax, lunatic fringe continues.

                    • weka

                      so? If people die in Dunedin because of the student parties, they're still dead. Trying to blame people we politically disagree with is hugely problematic.

                    • Muttonbird

                      Covid sweeping the country and people dying is on all of us.

                      This is what you said which I thought was very unfair. It's a bit rough on the vast majority of people who have been vaccinated, are being cautious in their movements, and are following the remaining health measures to blame them equally with the small minority of pandemic denying fascists on show in Wellington.

                      I felt like you were trying to minimise their actions by overstating and generalising the actions of those adhering to government rules.

                • Robert Guyton

                  "The students stopped but after some of them became infected. Fucking idiots. Some of them then tried to organise parties for the infected people. Callous disregard for public health."

                  Sounds just like the Wellington protesters. 'kept, they didn't stop…

                  • weka

                    I don't know if the students have stopped or not. Everyone is still going to classes right? Are no parties happening at all? Have the pubs closed?

                    • weka

                      the point I am making here (I think) is that there are a lot of NZ people who aren't really on board with the whole let's protect everyone thing. We can make judgements that the students stopped and the protestors didn't, but why did the students not already know not to be dicks? It's been two years. MB justified their actions. The protestors have their own justifications.

                    • McFlock

                      Students always have a high percentage of dicks. Some because brain development yadda yadda, some because privilege has meant they have never been held accountable for their actions, some because they've never had alcohol or drugs before (it has happened), and so on.

                      Otago has a particular problem because the concentration of 2nd years in a few city blocks essentially leaves teenagers unsupervised, drinking, and feeding off each other to escalate problems. Additionally, it's reputation as a party university self-selects some dickheads.

                      It's getting better, and the university kept Dunedin from shutting down when the freezing works and factories shut up shop. But locals already love to shit on students – local yoofs thumping them over, local business owners complainig about them, local councillors ranting about them (although that dude is a prick, anyway), and the local paper loves to whinge about them.

                      The covid party plan is probably giving students less bad press than the 300+ couch fires they had in one year in the 2000s, or the skyrocket wars in the 1980s, or the utter stench and filth castle street used to have on a hot summers day.

      • The Chairman 8.1.2

        If Covid sweeps the country and people (children, grandchildren, grandparents, vulnerable friends etc.) die, will the attitude of those who have lost friends & family toward antivaxxers/protesters change, do you think?

        If Jacinda engaged, it may not have come to this.

        • weka 8.1.2.1

          if the protestors didn't issue death threats to MPs, it may not have come to this.

          • The Chairman 8.1.2.1.1

            Yeah, it's not helpful. But nor is ignoring those that have come in peace.

            • weka 8.1.2.1.1.1

              if they separated themselves from the one's making death threats, I might agree with you.

              • The Chairman

                Do you think she should continue to ignore them?

                And if so, what good do you see coming out of that stance?

                • weka

                  I don't think any MP should be meeting with any group that is threatening to execute MPs and journalists.

                  Like I said, if the protestors want to be heard by MPs they need to sort their own house out first.

                  This is both a safety issue for MPs, and a general boundary/kaupapa issue – no way should death threats be tolerated, because of the precedent this sets for society and future protests.

                  • weka

                    in addition to the death threats, there is the threat of insurrection. I'm ok with people agitating to remove a government or to change how we collectively manage society, but the insurrection stuff is unnecessarily violent and doesn't take into account what the rest of NZ wants.

                    In other words, the state will almost certainly win, because it has more power. There will be downsides to that, but not as bad as if the state sanctioned death threats and insurrection by taking treating with those protestors.

                    • The Chairman

                      That's not what I am referring to. I am talking about the people at the Wellington protest who have a political aim of insurrection (violent removal of government…

                      And you expect peaceful protesters to go up against them and try and kick them out?

                      If not, what do you expect they do?

                      Best the Government engage with the peaceful ones, providing an opportunity to settle this, thus leaving the more hardcore for the police. Don't you think?

                      It's people who would follow through in the threats if they get the chance.

                      Then surely Government engagement with the peaceful ones provides a opportunity of reducing that chance of threats being followed through. Furthermore, reducing the potential radicalisation of the crowd.

                      If you want to be part of a movement that includes that, then that's on you.

                      People have joined this peaceful movement for a cause, you can't blame them for who else it attracts.

                    • weka

                      And you expect peaceful protesters to go up against them and try and kick them out?

                      If not, what do you expect they do?

                      No, I expect them to, at the very least, organise around their own values and then make public statements condemning threats of violence or calls for insurrection. Beyond that, I'm not there but the sense I get is that people are willing to either be in denial or turn a blind eye or not be that bothered or see it as a necessary evil that the far right are involved, and that there are people advocating violence.

                    • The Chairman

                      They have put out press releases stating they do not condone or tolerate aggression or intimidation.

                      But as you can see, to no avail.

                      Clearly, the hardcore aren't just going to leave. And as it is an occupation, they (the peaceful ones) can't just leave the struggle and lose the momentum they've gain and are gaining. This is on.

                      The best way to reduce the risks from the hardcore and resolve this protest is to engage. I see no other good way out of this

                  • The Chairman

                    Like I said, if the protestors want to be heard by MPs they need to sort their own house out first.

                    Easier said than done. For example, if someone has made threats but has done so because their child was vaccine damaged.

                    Sure they can try to clam them down and if successful in toning them down, it would be difficult to then kick them out.

                    The country is starting to rip apart, not engaging won't fix this. Neither will state inflicted force.

                    I think the failure to engage will do far more damage.

                    At this stage there has only been threats, we don't want the Government’s response to result in these threats going any further.

                    • weka

                      Easier said than done. For example, if someone has made threats but has done so because their child was vaccine damaged.

                      Sure they can try to clam them down and if successful in toning them down, it would be difficult to then kick them out.

                      That's not what I am referring to. I am talking about the people at the Wellington protest who have a political aim of insurrection (violent removal of government, not just Labour but government itself). This isn't some angry individuals mouthing off, it's people who would follow through in the threats if they get the chance.

                      This is an actual movement and it has pretty clear ties to the US and the far right. If you want to be part of a movement that includes that, then that's on you. That the hippies and peace and love crowd actively refuse to address this issue (and I've seen this happening) is on them. If they don't know how to address the issue, then they need to start listening to people that do.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      A parent of a "vaccine damaged" child should be forgiven for making death threats against the PM?

                      Interesting view, Chair.

                    • The Chairman

                      Robert Guyton

                      A parent of a "vaccine damaged" child should be forgiven for making death threats against the PM?

                      Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that, Robert.

                  • The Chairman

                    No way should death threats be tolerated

                    Interesting you say that as I was wondering why those openly making them haven't been rounded up and charged?

                    • weka

                      I've been wondering the same. We know that Arps got arrested, but was out again pretty soon afterwards.

                      I’m guessing it’s partly to do with strategy.

                    • Muttonbird

                      They are hiding amongst like mined people in the clownvoy camp, and using children as human shields.

                      It’s all very deliberate.

                    • The Chairman

                      I’m guessing it’s partly to do with strategy.

                      Yes, ditto. They become useful in tarring the crowd.

            • mpledger 8.1.2.1.1.2

              There is coming in peace but that doesn't negate the fact that they are highly likely to be covid-19 carriers. I bet Winston, Seymour and Andy Foster are feeling a bit of anxiety at the moment.

        • Robert Guyton 8.1.2.2

          Jacinda Ardern should sit down with the protesters to learn of their concerns?

          You think she isn't well-versed in what they believe and demand?

          For goodness sake.

          The sitting-down would be symbolic and nothing more.

          Why do those folk believe they deserve more than the ordinary person is able to effect?

          Do you, yourself, want/demand an audience with the Prime Minister?

          • Ad 8.1.2.2.1

            That is an attitude I’ve heard before. I remember National governments saying exactly the same thing for:

            • Dams up and down the Clutha
            • Sending troops to the Vietnam War
            • Allowing the Springbok Tour
            • Pureora forest felling
            • Employment Contracts Act
            • Land rights marches
            • Takaparawha Bastion Point protests
            • Selling of 50% of state generator companies

            They ignored the left, the left radicalised, and in quite a few instances the left won.

            This protest group have absorbed all the successful protest lessons that the left have taught them, and are serving it right back to the Labour government and its supporters.

            • Robert Guyton 8.1.2.2.1.1

              Ad. The protest group (?) hasn't absorbed the learnings of the dam/Vietnam/Springbok/ etc. groups at all.

              They are fresh, inexperienced protesters, starting from scratch.

              They are "freshers".

              Let me know when they have some skin in the game.

              • Ad

                Sorry more skin in the game than:

                – leaving your lives and camping on Parliament grounds in a tent and having the entire NZPolice called down on you?

                – the Army called upon you by a Minister?

                – no protection or support for you from the left? or right?

                – no protection for you from the judiciary?

                – often taking the choice to walk from their jobs?

                – not a single media channel deigning to take your view?

                – just one solitary elected member of our state even talking to you even once?

                – no support from students even?

                That looks like more skin in the game from a protest that I've seen from anyone since Bastion Point. Which is 45 years ago.

                They are leaving the climate change protesters, and Greenpeace, and CoalAction, for dead.

                • weka

                  yep. Definitely people with skin in the game, and the left is vastly underestimating just how strongly the protestors feel.

                  I'm still fucked off that it's not XR approaching 3 weeks of occupation of parliament's front lawn. The pandemic has shown us that the left mostly wants to be comfortable. Respect to the people who survived the storm and mud and Trevor Mallard.

                  • Muttonbird

                    The pandemic has shown us that the left mostly wants to be comfortable.

                    Why on earth should "the left" feel guilty about that?

                    • weka

                      Climate change for a start. You want BAU, you're choosing mass death and suffering (but for others, not for oneself and family of course). It’s the same dynamic that underpins the housing crisis and poverty.

                    • Ad

                      Let's see what James Shaw's plan looks like in May.

                      Also note that the RMA changes in the current draft now circulating don't allow climate change factors to accelerate renewable energy.

                      Hottest summer Auckland has ever had – on top of the hottest year on year over five years.

                      Looks embarrassing to me.

                    • Muttonbird

                      Bit of a tangent there guys, but ok.

                      [shrugs]

                    • weka

                      it's not a tangent. The pandemic was the biggest opportunity we've had to take climate seriously, and we turned our backs on it. By we, I mean especially the people who want climate action, including lefties.

                    • weka

                      look at the underlying dynamic. People don't just want comfort, they want their lives to stay the same. That's just not possible.

                    • Poission

                      AD

                      Also note that the RMA changes in the current draft now circulating don't allow climate change factors to accelerate renewable energy.

                      Government policy is to make it really expensive for the poor and frugal users of electricity,so the PR consultants from the leafy suburbs can drive EV,

                      Woods’ expectation has been that power companies would use the extra revenues to apply an equivalent reduction in charges paid by households that use more power, meaning consumers overall would be no better or worse off on average as a result of the change despite there being winners and losers.

                      However, the Government did not seek a guarantee from power companies that tariff changes would cancel out on aggregate.

                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/127889980/electricity-users-on-lowusage-plans-told-their-daily-fixed-charges-are-doubling

                      Energy poverty to many on low or fixed incomes.

                      Woods is not competent in anything she does.

                  • Poission

                    Respect to the people who survived the storm and mud and Trevor Mallard.

                    Have you ever seen a Feral Mallard?

                    https://avianhybrids.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/mallard-x-black-duck-scenario-1.jpg?w=665

            • weka 8.1.2.2.1.2

              This protest group have absorbed all the successful protest lessons that the left have taught them, and are serving it right back to the Labour government and its supporters.

              Not really (eg pissing off the locals, police strategy, death threats), but they are getting better and we should be paying attention.

              I've just made the case upthread for why meeting with the protestors at this point is wrong. Until the movement separates itself (or otherwise resolves) the death and insurrection threats, the state cannot engage for safety reasons and because of the precedents that would set.

              (there's also another issue there about mental health and belief systems that are too disconnected from reality, but that's tricky to discuss or even understand from this distance).

              • Ad

                Difficult basis though it is, Police get death threats from gangs regularly.

                And still they engage. They also pull out those who threaten and put them in front of a judge like they should.

                Even DOC and the anti-1080 people had some loonie threateners on the fringes, who were also talked to. The loonies were traced and put in jail.

                I bet there were "hang the PM' signs in the Howl of a Protest as well. At least they got a hearing. As well as formal warnings.

                Think of this protest like a MoleMap. You cut out the bad ones and constantly engage with the rest. It's a Body Politic.

                • weka

                  Except no-one is cutting out the bad ones afaik.

                  And there is a difference between saying 'hang the PM' as political rhetoric in a protest, and saying 'we want to pull all the MPs and journos out onto the forecourt, put them on trial, and then execute them' as politcal aims.

                  I might be tempted to write them off as fringe nutters if it weren't for the very substantial involvement of the far right.

                  Tell me, do you think politicians would have died on the Capitol assault if police hadn't stopped the mob? Because I do. And I have no trouble believing that there are enough people in NZ willing to do the same, and many more being radicalised as we speak.

                  • Ad

                    Plenty of the Wellington ones have gone to court already; some for misdemeanours, some for actual violence.

                    I don't for a second believe that New Zealand politicians would have died at any point. That's just hysterical.

                    Ardern is just looking weaker and more out of control by the day. She's a coward for failing to address her own citizens.

                    She complains about being hectored by protesters in Christchurch two days ago. OMG this snowflake would have melted into a puddle if she'd had to face what Bolger or Clark went through at Waitangi every year.

                    We have 13,000 infections a day. We have multiple protests by the thousand across multiple centres today. The protest in Wellington is growing not decreasing. The courts haven't finished with the legality of the mandates.

                    How much more out of control can you get?

                    Our only coherent Minister right now is Robertson, who looks like he still has command of his portfolio.

                    And the more she doesn't have the courage to front to them, the worse this is going to get.

                    • weka

                      I don't for a second believe that New Zealand politicians would have died at any point. That's just hysterical.

                      Which is pretty much the position NZ took generally before the Chch mosque shootings.

                      For me it's not about Ardern, it's about the baseline principle. Something has to be done, but I'm not yet convinced that the PM meeting with whoever it is she is meant to meet with is the right move for NZ generally. The mediation idea is probably better.

                      Labour do need to stop with the two NZ messaging and figure out to not be arseholes to the part of NZ they don't like/want. But really, the freedom movement is much bigger than the mandates, and is a set of complex dynamics. I can't see how the PM meeting with the protestors is going to help with that.

                    • Muttonbird

                      She complains about being hectored by protesters in Christchurch two days ago. OMG this snowflake would have melted into a puddle if she'd had to face what Bolger or Clark went through at Waitangi every year.

                      In case you missed it, we've had a major terrorist attack since then. We know these protesters share a lot in common with, and in some cases are, far-right white supremacist fascists. Their views are also shared by anti-1080 folk and other gun nuts.

                      We also know these types of people are quick to violence and often not afraid to use deadly measure.

                      The world has move on since in the last 20 years and Ardern is in far greater danger than either of those two were.

                      And it's no good saying it's her own fault, if that's what you were thinking.

                    • Ad

                      So first you make a false equivalence to the Jan 6th insurrection.

                      Then you make another false equivalence to the protesters and a lunatic gunman.

                      I remember the right making same reaction by the NZ SIS and NZPolice after 9/11: they raided everyone in every weird groiu[p they could think of. All they did was require the NZPolice to apologise to everyone in Te Uruwera a year later. And go through a major inquiry.

                      It should strike you that the NZPolice are way more measured now, and way more measured than the left are being. They are allowing lawful protest to continue, engaging with who they need to and constantly, and pulling out who they need to. That is the appropriate minimum.

                      All the measures to protect the state, politicians and everyone else are in place. There is no need to cower as our political order is doing.

                    • Muttonbird

                      Didn't make any reference to Jan 06.

                      It's clear to me anyway far right extremism is on the rise and becoming more sophisticated. If you want to bring Jan 06 into it, that is a prime example.

                      Our own antisocial camp has foreign connections.

                      There's a heightened risk to the PM because of this and it's dangerous to minimise this risk. You wouldn't be scoffing if something did happen to her.

                    • Peter

                      You don't for a second believe …? Would you for a second have believed someone would grab a knife from the cutlery shelf in a New Lynn supermarket and attack people?

                      I agree that someone advertising the fact that their hope or aspiration is that some terrible thing befalls some politician or journalist might be less likely to do it than someone not advertising. The deed might be more likely to come from someone roused by the rhetoric, stews and goes off their rocker. Any of those about?

                      Ardern is just looking weaker and more out of control by the day, a coward, a snowflake would have melted if she'd had to face what other PMs went through?

                      I appreciate that is your humble opinion. My humble opinion is that from your utterances you would seem to be in the camp that would condemn Ardern if she personally cured cancer. You'd no doubt have it that she should have done it earlier or cheaper. Or gone the full monty and focussed on criticising her public appearance at the announcement for the colour of her clothes she wore, the fact she gesticulated or or how her hair was done.

          • The Chairman 8.1.2.2.2

            You think she isn't well-versed in what they believe and demand?

            Can you point me to where Jacinda has acknowledged they are there due to her mandates?

            The sitting-down would be symbolic and nothing more.

            It would have to be more to put an end to this protest. And the additional ones popping up all over the country.

            • Robert Guyton 8.1.2.2.2.1

              You don't believe the PM is "well-versed" in the demands of the protesters on lawns of Parliament?

              Why?

              Government have excellent intelligence gathering capabilities and keep the PM "well-versed".

              In any case, anyone can read the list of demands from the protesters – why couldn't the PM?

              Your argument is … weak, imo.

              • The Chairman

                You don't believe the PM is "well-versed" in the demands of the protesters on lawns of Parliament?

                I've yet to see her publicly acknowledged they are there due to her mandates. Therefore, can't honestly say how versed and correct her info is.

                • Robert Guyton

                  You've "yet to see her…"

                  So it can't be true.

                  I see.

                  • The Chairman

                    So it can't be true.

                    Happy to be shown other wise

                    • Peter

                      Happy to be shown what the PM knows and is informed about?

                      Don't worry about not been shown. Just make up patently ludicrous nonsense that she doesn't know what's going on and what it's all about and she is isolated from information.

                      Hell, you can even claim you know more about what's going on than her.

    • Shanreagh 8.2

      Do you think that people in the protest camp are sick because of

      a) radiation

      b) EMF from devices, comms aerials, and especially the rebar/ingredients in the concrete blocks

      c) Covid

  8. Peter 9

    Caption on Stuff photo: "Police are attempting to talk protest organisers out of unlawfully walking over the Auckland Harbour Bridge."

    Nice how the police are 'trying to talk them out of' their actions. Is that a way of saying they are going to 'try to stop' them with talk but they have strategies past that which they are determined will stop them?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127894445/covid19-auckland-harbour-bridge-closed-citybound-as-antimandate-protest-sets-off

  9. SPC 10

    For one thing the protestors could learn to spell, it's bio electro magnetic field (and when there are a lot of people are crowded together with multiple devices, not sleeping well, not drinking enough water and coming down with COVID, the fried head effect will occur.

    Leaving the area, getting some fresh air, hydrating, getting some Vitamin D, and going for as swim (unless they need to rest because of COVID) was actually pretty good advice.

  10. Cricklewood 11

    Wow percussion is making the clip on really rock in roll

  11. weka 12

    I can't tell what is satire and what is physics anymore, but apparently the AHB does sway from lots of people walking on it. Anyone got an explanation for how that works?

  12. Anne 13

    The protesters do not have permission to cross the Harbour Bridge. They are currently walking across the bridge. The police have let them cross the bridge. The moral of the story:

    If you are a crowd of ignorant, cretinous, stupid, brain-addled arseholes you can get away with murder. The rest of us would be arrested and charged if we dared to behave in the same way.

    I predict that very soon members of the public are going to take matters into their own hands. For starters, it seems that people living in the vicinity of the bridge are unable to leave their homes due to cars, trucks etc. parked over their driveways. I would not be surprised if some of these ‘protesters’ return to smashed car windows.

    • Robert Guyton 13.1

      No insurance cover.

    • weka 13.2

      This is not the first unauthorised protest on AHB, or elsewhere in NZ. Lefties set the precedent, do you want it taken away?

    • Ad 13.3

      Amazing how fast the purported left turns into the hard right.

      • weka 13.3.1

        or authoritarian left. Scary, as if we didn't have enough to worry about.

        • Anne 13.3.1.1

          The authoritarian left? That's bullshit.

          Stopping unlawful and dangerous behaviour by a bunch of 'ne'er-do-wells' does not constitute the "authoritarian left".

          • weka 13.3.1.1.1

            Stopping unlawful and dangerous behaviour by a bunch of 'ne'er-do-wells'

            Lol, this is exactly what the right says every time the left get active. Can't have it both ways Anne.

            • Anne 13.3.1.1.1.1

              Trying to be clever by turning it back on me? You’re usually better than that weka.

              It has nothing to do with what "the right" may do or not do.

              • weka

                it does. Because if the left legitimises suppression of protest, then the right will double down on that and we will lose out.

                I'm not being clever, I'm saying you are using a right wing framing and that that is a problem.

      • RedLogix 13.3.2

        Been seeing this coming for two years now.

        My argument all along was that the social unity and state suspension of normal rights was an acceptable temporary measure when faced with all of the unknowns going into this crisis.

        But that the same tools would not be the way out once we properly understood what we were up against.

        • Ad 13.3.2.1

          So I can imagine a country where suspensions of rights were acceptable, if the state took them while …

          … it educates the children in its primary and secondary schools,

          it takes care of their teeth in its own dental clinics and distributes free milk and apples.

          It will lend you money to buy a house of your own or allow you to rent one it has constructed …

          It will give you insurance on your life and property …

          It provides you with the services of the telephone, the telegraph, the mails, and a commercial bank.

          It will sell you coal which it has extracted from its own mines …

          It will transport you on its railways, buses, or airplanes, and will invite you to spend a vacation in its own tourist hotels and holiday resorts.

          It will entertain, and possibly instruct, you with its broadcasts …

          Should you with to erect a factory, import materials or manufactures from overseas, or send money abroad, you must obtain the state’s permission.

          If you are a labourer, it fixes your minimum rate of wage, determines the hours and conditions of your work, and compels you to enrol in the appropriate trade union.

          If you are a farmer, it offers the assistance of its agricultural experts, buys you certain of your products with prices it guarantees, and markets them …

          It plants forests, cuts its timber at its own sawmill, and sells it …

          Whenever you visit a doctor, it contributes a portion of the medical fees; and if you are unemployed, widowed, orphaned, aged, or totally invalided, it pays you a benefit …

          Finally, when you die, it will take its share of what you leave and will include your demise in the published statistics of its invaluable Year Book …

          Leviathan in New Zealand is a well-nigh universal provider.

          … which is how New Zealand was reported on in 1948.

          • weka 13.3.2.1.1

            plagiarism is never a good look. This is the only link I can find, but presumably you got it from somewhere, so the expectation is a link or citation.

            https://aucklanduniversitypress.co.nz/content/9781869407827.pdf

            • Ad 13.3.2.1.1.1

              Look harder.

              The entire thing was put in italics to signify it was a quote. And a date provided. No, this isn't an academic journal. The actual exact place is:

              L. Lipson, The Politics of Equality: New Zealand’s Adventures in Democracy, (Chicago, 1948), pp. 367-68.

              Belich usefully cites it in his second volume of his history of New Zealand.

            • RedLogix 13.3.2.1.1.2

              I read both the italics and date provided as a clear indication of a quote.

              In the meantime the elected leader of a sovereign nation is in grave risk of being assassinated by invading troops as we speak, forgive me if I fail to be overly exercised by Ad omitting to provide an exact reference in the circumstances.

              • Incognito

                Every quote comes from somewhere, which is why it’s customary on this site to provide a link. We all know this and we actively moderate on it too, so why argue it here & now?? Please don’t tell us that you’ve attmpted a whataboutery ‘defense’ implying that we cannot walk and chew gum at the same time.

                • RedLogix

                  The comment was in reply to me, and as far as I am concerned the exact source simply did not matter, the nature of the quote was clear enough to me.

                  Ah fuck me – I should have known better than to return.

                  • weka

                    the reply was to you, but anyone here can read and respond to it. The reasons for citing or linking are clear enough even if you don't personally find that useful.

                    • RedLogix

                      If anyone cared enough to know the exact source – a search engine is but a few clicks away.

                      I can see what you are doing.

                  • Incognito

                    Hi Red, I found your feigned comparison between the invasion and omission of a source link rather absurd and not typical of you. You used to be so even-tempered and unflappable, but now you sound angry, frustrated and stressed. I have taken considerable time out from commenting and moderating here over the past 6 months for personal reasons and I feel much better for it now. Best – Incognito.

                  • Muttonbird

                    Yeah, when commenting you have to put in a source for the quote otherwise you get a warning, and then a ban for repeated infringement.

          • RedLogix 13.3.2.1.2

            Most of those are good examples of the state acting as our servant, albeit a somewhat overbearing one at times. But the essential social contract was one of the state being ultimately acting to serve the interests of the individual, not the other way around.

            At the same time if the individual wanted to benefit from having such a powerful servant, there was a responsibility on each of us to abide within its rules and policies.

            In March 2020 we needed the state to act decisively in the face of an unknown hazard – and I am on record as supporting those actions in that context. Equally I am also on record as pointing out that this extraordinary assumption of power and intervention in our ordinary lives carried two obvious risks, one was that the govt, and its supporters would become overly fond of such power, and the other that the people would become less enamoured over time.

            As both the protest and polls demonstrate.

            • Ad 13.3.2.1.2.1

              We are never going to go back to the patriarchal state of 1948.

              Looks like Ardern is going the way of Churchill in 1945 for similar reasons.

              • Poission

                Churchill came back in 1952,with a campaign entitled set the people free.

                His return to power followed from the failure of the labour government to address the housing crisis,and the use of identity cards.

                ‘Set the People Free’ - Conservatives election campaign badge (1950 & 1951)

                On the 21st February 1952 the conservative government removed the use of identity cards,only for them to be reintroduced in 2006 by a labour government under Blair.

                • Ad

                  Tony Blair being the only Labour leader to be voted in for 3 terms.

                  Hopefully Ardern learned something useful off him.

                  Churchill’s slogan might work for Luxon if he had guts.

                • swordfish

                  .
                  More the consequence of swing voters fed up with rationing & austerity (if I remember rightly from the historiography on post-war Britain).*

                  Attlee had made promises to end rationing on key products … but was subsequently forced to renege … partly due to Korean War.

                  Labour lost their suburban middle-class voters at the 1950 GE & then lost a swathe of women voters in particular (according to the polls) at their defeat in 1951 (even though they actually secured more votes than the Conservatives at that GE).

                  Have a vague memory that the Liberals stood down in a whole swathe of seats & forged a tacit alliance with the Tories in 1951 (in terms of encouraging tactical voting among their supporters) … which wouldn't have helped either.

                  [* also a core component of Labour’s fall from grace here in 1949]

            • The Chairman 13.3.2.1.2.2

              Equally I am also on record as pointing out that this extraordinary assumption of power and intervention in our ordinary lives carried two obvious risks, one was that the govt, and its supporters would become overly fond of such power…

              Such as their desire to apply the covid traffic light system to combat the flu.

              https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/covid-19-omicron-jacinda-ardern-plots-path-to-end-of-some-vaccine-mandates-but-warns-omicron-wave-will-hit-first/T5WKTX7MHCF3A6XKJOG63TUSUI/

              • Muttonbird

                Most people will understand that the flu might be more severe this winter because we'll be inviting new strains all at once with the opening of the borders having been mostly sheltered from all strains for two years.

                Not a bad idea to see some health measures in place until we see how bad that influx is.

                Excellent forward thinking again from this government.

                • The Chairman

                  Not a bad idea

                  Thanks for highlighting Red's other point/risk. See quote below.

                  And its supporters would become overly fond of such power

                  • Muttonbird

                    You have difficulty comprehending the simplest things. No wonder you are lead so easily by misinformation.

                    • The Chairman

                      Misinformation my ass.

                      Your example is there for all to see.

                      Not only did you say it's (health measures) "not a bad idea" you went on to say it was "excellent forward thinking again from this government."

                      It was a health measure for covid but it's overreach applying the covid traffic light system to combat the flu.

                    • Muttonbird

                      It's a great idea to maintain some health measures to limit the possible high impact of flu this winter. That's just good public health policy.

                      Asian countries have been doing this for a long time. Mask wearing, staying home from work when sick, etc.

                      That some paranoid, anti-science idiots can't cope with that concept is just sad.

                    • The Chairman

                      Asian countries have been doing this for a long time. Mask wearing, staying home from work when sick, etc.

                      If people here feel they need to do that for the flu, that's their choice.

                      It's a great idea to maintain some health measures

                      So "some" overreach sits ok with you?

                    • Muttonbird

                      It's only overreach to the selfish and misinformed.

                      Most people are happy to do what is required to see their fellow Kiwis as safe as possible.

                      Some (you) don’t care.

                      It’s a bit like your bizarre take on rental housing standards.

                    • The Chairman

                      It's only overreach to the selfish and misinformed.

                      Most people are happy to do what is required to see their fellow Kiwis as safe as possible.

                      Taking that stance, do you think Jacinda is being selfish and is failing to do what is required to see her fellow Kiwis are as safe as possible via "inviting new strains all at once with the opening of the borders'?

                    • Muttonbird

                      "Safe as possible" is the important bit.

                      The alternative is to shut ourselves off from the world permanently.

                      Not even you would endorse that, I imagine. Because clearly, “overreach”.

                    • The Chairman

                      The alternative is to shut ourselves off from the world permanently.

                      Alternatively, staggering the opening, which is possible.

                      So I'll ask you again. Taking that stance, do you think Jacinda is being selfish and is failing to do what is required to see her fellow Kiwis are as safe as possible via "inviting new strains all at once with the opening of the borders'?

        • Robert Guyton 13.3.2.2

          We "properly understand what we're up against"?

          "We"

          ?

      • Muttonbird 13.3.3

        I'm more worried that some on the purported left have abandoned collectivism (embracing public health measures) in favour of exceptionalism (fighting public health measures).

        • Ad 13.3.3.1

          With Labour re-nationalising the health system, and proposing to vastly expand ACC, it's up to them to show evidence that it will improve health outcomes.

          • Muttonbird 13.3.3.1.1

            I was talking about pandemic response. But I think you knew that.

            • Ad 13.3.3.1.1.1

              The pandemic response has led to the re-nationalisation of the health system, and to the proposed expansion of ACC. Both are collectivist responses, and expansions of state power.

              • Muttonbird

                I thought my statement @13.3.3 was clear enough. I even put stuff in brackets. Chose to ignore it if you like.

      • Anne 13.3.4

        Telling it like it is… is now turning into the hard right is it?

        Members of the public are going to take matters into their own hands if this lawlessness continues. That is a given. I'm not one of them, but not afraid to speak my mind when the moment warrants it. Is this what they call "cancel culture"? Not allowed to tell a truth cos you might hurt the sensitive wee souls of those who support the protesters? I don't know.

        And I would be interested to know what other protests – other than the Freedom and Destiny mobs – who have crossed the bridge without permission.

      • swordfish 13.3.5

        .

        Were the affluent, elitist, middle-class professionals, doggedly pursuing self-interest & power under the guise of Identity Politics, ever genuinely of the democratic "Left" ? In terms of fundamental values & principles ? In terms of egalitarianism & the broader interests of the low & middle income ? In terms of belief in the free expression of ideas & democratic norms ?

        No real surprise that, once they obtain cultural & political power, transforming into the New Establishment, their inherent authoritarianism & systematic double-standards become increasingly obvious. Self-interested elite … conspicuously bereft of basic ethics, despite (or perhaps making necessary) all the performative moral posturing.

        [Note: this isn’t a critique of Anne’s comment … thinking more of a tight cadre of certain prominent politicians, Party apparatchiks & ID Politics activists]

    • observer 13.4

      The problem is not only that protesters cause major disruption, that is not new, it's often been the case (for causes good or bad).

      The new and growing problem is that police are now making a habit of not following through on their own statements. Coster in Wellington on towing, the Auckland cops on the harbour bridge, etc. Clearly saying what will happen, then not happening.

      If the police can't be credible, you don't need to be Nostradamus to work out where that could lead us. Nowhere good.

      • Anne 13.4.1

        Precisely observer @ 13.4. Thank-you.

        Good to have some solid, rational thinking no matter what way it may be expressed.smiley

      • Ad 13.4.2

        I think the NZPolice have done really well, especially in Wellington.

        The major thirst for violence has been from the left to go in and attack them.

        • Robert Guyton 13.4.2.1

          "The major thirst for violence has been from the left to go in and attack them."

          Pffffffft!

          Links?

          Looking for "major".

        • observer 13.4.2.2

          I think the NZPolice have done really well, especially in Wellington.

          For the past week or so, they have done as well as anybody could ask, despite extreme provocation.

          That does not change the fact that Coster initially said things would be done, which were not. Sure, it could be argued he was wise to re-think, just as police might have been wise to allow today's bridge march. In which case, they need to review their communications approach, because publicly promising something and not delivering is not a good policy.

          The police in Auckland had plenty of notice (it was known for over a week), and so they had 2 options:

          1) Tell the public the march across the bridge will take place and advise of time, lane closures, alternative arrangements.

          2) Prevent the march.

          They chose neither.

          • Ad 13.4.2.2.1

            Clearly they had a third choice which was: let them protest if they want.

            That is the correct choice.

            • observer 13.4.2.2.1.1

              That is the first option.

              Do you think the police turned up and said "Gosh, there are lots of people here, that's a big surprise, we'd better let them march"?

              Seriously?

          • Cricklewood 13.4.2.2.2

            I think they were hoping the crowd would be small enough to stop and when it wasnt they had to go to plan b. Which they did have the infrastructure in place for.

            How would the police stop a few thousand determined protesters? Resort to riot shields and batons? They're not interested, what happened after the last bridge protest? A clamour to spend a few million on undeliverable promises.

            This is a political problem for the govt to fix and it's of their own making. I think Coster understands that all to well.

          • Patricia 2 13.4.2.2.3

            It seems that some protestors on the Auckland Harbour Bridge march have now set up a tent city at the Auckland Domain. Let's hope that doesn't turn into another festival a la Wellington.

    • alwyn 13.5

      "If you are a crowd of ignorant, cretinous, stupid, brain-addled arseholes you can get away with murder. The rest of us would be arrested and charged if we dared to behave in the same way."

      Wow! That certainly shows what Anne thinks of the cyclists who broke the Police Lines and rode across the Auckland Harbour Bridge back in June last year.

      I can only think of one of them who was arrested. The others must have been "ignorant, cretinous, stupid, brain-addled arseholes" in Anne's words.

      Sounds about right to me.

  13. Ad 14

    The big climate strike marches of 2018 were the largest we've seen since the ECA ones; over 2% of the entire country on their feet.

    The Howl of a Protest ones of 2021 were more media savvy with 40,000.

    This one has not much more than 2,000 going over the bridge. If this really is the birth of a new political movement, it's not yet particularly big.

    • Cricklewood 14.1

      Definitely a lot more than 2000… probably close to 5…

      It’s not as big as the climate or BLM marches but they’re far more motivated. The tent city in Welly is a case in point.

    • observer 14.2

      Brian Tamaki gets 100% mobilisation of 0.1% (the Destiny vote at the election).

      Any new political movement might use him for foot soldiers, but that's all.

    • Robert Guyton 14.3

      New?

      They tried at the last election – <1%

      Same this time around <1%

      • Ad 14.3.1

        New. Certainly a revival of libertarianism the envy of any on the left, who haven't gone through ideological revival in 35 years.

        I suspect our social cohesion will see it off.

        But it's safe to predict that floating largely homeless vote will gather around Act in 2023.

  14. Matiri 15

    Very perceptive insight and wrap up by James Black who started the 'Tell the Wellington Protestors to Go Home – They are NOT the majority' petition on https://www.change.org/p/freedom-groups-in-wellington-tell-the-wellington-protestors-to-go-home-they-are-not-the-majority/u/30254756

    FEB 25, 2022 —

    Since I started this petition I’ve gathered over 140,000 signatures but more importantly it’s triggered media interest and analysis and exposure the elements of the protest that are dangerous .

    As the protest has unfolded it’s become more and more obvious to everyone that there are seriously unhinged but well funded elements at play here using innocents and the gullible , children and whanau as puppets for their agenda of destabilization

    With Matthew Tukaki’s #EndTheProtest and the new group that’s started called a Aotearoa Stronger Together (http://www.aotearoatogether.org there is now a forum outside of this petition to have your say – and I encourage you to get behind them

    This will be my last update – I thank you for your support – and keep safe in a world that is not so safe at the moment

    We will get through this – all mandates will go when it’s safe to do so , that time is near, then watch as the money train switches to some other issue

  15. Ad 16

    13,000 cases, 10,000 of which were detected through RAT tests.

    12,000 yesterday, proportion the same.

    Very hard to see that the Ministry of Health had an accurate gauge on infections prior to RAT tests being used.

    Professor Baker warned us of the massive missing thousands in the count over a week ago.

    COVID-19: Professor Michael Baker warns daily case numbers not showing extent of Omicron spread, actual figure could be 10 times higher | Newshub

    Also, the NZHerald has today pulled all reporting of vaccination numbers, because they no longer trust the Ministry of Health numbers.

    All those facts the Ministry of Health has been beaming at us are just not trustworthy.

    Ridicule them about their tinfoil hats, but their epistemic skepticism is looking more and more warranted by both MSM reporting and specialist analysis.

    Maybe we're the gullible ones.

    • weka 16.1

      Also, the NZHerald has today pulled all reporting of vaccination numbers, because they no longer trust the Ministry of Health numbers.

      Where have they said that?

      Ridicule them about their tinfoil hats, but their epistemic skepticism is looking more and more warranted by both MSM reporting and specialist analysis.

      Maybe we're the gullible ones.

      Dunno, it's no surprise to me that government systems are struggling, it was like that before the pandemic we just had the ability and time to do lots of patching. And it's not like we didn't know, but I suspect a large chunk of NZ was able to ignore it. Not any more.

    • pat 16.2

      "Also, the NZHerald has today pulled all reporting of vaccination numbers, because they no longer trust the Ministry of Health numbers"

      Why?…and have you any links…a quick search reveals nothing

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 16.3

      I see the NZH reported the usual vaccine data less than a couple of hours ago.

      There were 31,217 Covid vaccine booster doses given out yesterday along with 445 first doses and 1167 second doses.

      I don't read the Herald often, but I did notice they had their vaccine campaign ("90%"?) thing running at the top of the homepage. Now it isn't there – maybe they just finished running it. Seems people might be inventing / imagining sinister reasons for that?

        • weka 16.3.1.1

          and explained what happened (that’s not new either, there were earlier reports of vax rates above 100% and that was also explained previously)

          I guess we can now assume that NZH hasn't "today pulled all reporting of vaccination numbers, because they no longer trust the Ministry of Health numbers"

          Are you trying to undermine confidence in the MoH and/or the public health response?

        • pat 16.3.1.2

          "MacKay said their data included everyone enrolled with a primary health organisation and everyone who used health services like hospitals or prescriptions during a calendar year. But she admitted they were facing some limitations, "as with any dataset".

          So does this mean that anyone who hasnt used health services in 2021 is not included as part of the eligible pool?….and is it personalised?

          i.e. you havnt used health services for a couple of tears or more so are not counted as part of the eligible pool but then you receive a vaccine so you are now added (or not?)….there must be thousands who do not use health services in any given year, possibly tens of thousands.

    • swordfish 16.4

      .

      Ridicule them about their tinfoil hats, but their epistemic skepticism is looking more and more warranted by both MSM reporting and specialist analysis. Maybe we're the gullible ones.

      There's an insular, echo-chamber nuttiness on both sides of the hyper-tribalism we're witnessing at the moment. Both tribes frequently get things wrong (on Covid / vaccination) … & both double-down, indulging in the comfy certitude of their narrow-mindedness, refusing to admit mistakes. Often displaying remarkable pomposity & conceit in the process.

      Symptoms of a broader infantilisation of politics & culture.

      • RedLogix 16.4.1

        Virtuals vs the Physicals

        The Virtuals are basically the elite…the thinking class. They don’t have much in common with the Physicals. They work with knowledge. They build and manage abstract institutions and systems of organizational communication as a means of control. They are informational middlemen. This class can therefore do their job almost entirely from a laptop, by email or a virtual Zoom meeting, and has recently realized they don’t even need to be sitting in an office cubicle while they do it.

        The Physicals have been a part of human civilization for a really long time. These are the people who work primarily in the real, physical world. Maybe they work directly with their hands, like a carpenter, or a mechanic, or a farmer (or a truck driver). Or maybe they are only a step away: they own or manage a business where they organize and direct employees who work with their hands, and buy or sell or move things around in the real world. Like a transport logistics company, maybe. This class necessarily works in a physical location, or they own or operate physical assets that are central to their trade. They are not typically political and rarely put themselves out there, when it comes to the electoral battle field.

        • Robert Guyton 16.4.1.1

          The physicals built landmines.

        • Ad 16.4.1.2

          We're lucky to work in industries where we see the value of both.

        • swordfish 16.4.1.3

          .

          Fantastic, RL … both the post itself & also in turn leading me to many linked articles (most of which I hadn't read) … and further links within those articles.

          Puts me in mind of Thomas Piketty's idea of a totally elite-dominated contemporary politics – Brahmin Left vs Merchant Right – the Left's abandonment of the working-classes & hence the development of a Globalists vs Nativists cleavage …

          … also French social geographer Christophe Guilluy's La France périphérique, where he argues France (&, by extension, Western Post-Industrial nations) is divided between affluent, globalised, multicultural inner cities and the rest of France, depressed small towns, un-chic suburbs, post-industrial wasteland & the forgotten countryside

          … and also David Goodhart's British "value tribes" Somewheres vs Anywheres

          … Not to mention recent analyses of the Brexit divide, Clinton’s “deplorables” … and, of course, the Canadian trucker revolt …

          … probably all building on earlier 1960s / 70s work on Postmaterialism by Ronald Inglehart & his followers as well as later work by Herbert Kitschelt.

  16. Muttonbird 17

    Tamaki's march today isn't about freedom as much as it is about his ability to make money from poor people.

    Remember he cannot have more than 25 people to tithe from at a time if he does not run vaccine passes.

    Follow the money.

    • Shanreagh 17.1

      I am ever hopeful that as we speak, quietly in a back office somewhere a warrant to search the bank accounts of the organisations/individuals behind the protest is being drafted, or already has, and been lodged with the Courts. It is clear that the money is being used to support of a number of 'crimes', starting from the trespass on Parliament grounds, threatening to kill, etc etc.

      Journos also need to let us know who they are.

      • Cricklewood 17.1.1

        Um some have been quite open… like the owner of Red Stag.

        All well and good but next time Greenpeace activists get on a rig or similar will you be happy if a Nat Act govt used the precedent to seize Greenpeace’s assets? Or a Unions?

        • Shanreagh 17.1.1.1

          The owner of the Red Stag has but his contribution is but a drop in the bucket.

          The Greenpeace protests in my experience have never squatted in Parliament grounds in breach of a trespass order, blocked streets, ignored rules, desecrated the Centotaph, over a period of almost three weeks, their members don't harass children or those wearing masks.

          The Canadians don't go round freezing bank accounts either but the Canadians, like us, have recently been exposed to similar action. Our occupation is a copycat. It was well known through the hacking of the truckers GiveSendGo funds, that the main funders were from the US.

          As I understand it the Police could, like their counterparts in Canada, ask for Emergency powers giving them quick access to, and the ability to freeze bank accounts. They also have the ability to seek warrants at any time for serious crime and this would include looking at bank accounts. This does not require Emergency powers but it does require time.

          Police & Nacts would be stepping over the constitutional conventions to direct the Police to seek warrants to look at bank accounts.

          Getting warrants for surveillance etc is not especially rare in NZ. It is how Police are able to tack most of the drug trafficking here.

  17. weka 18

    taking our eye off the ball.

  18. Robert Guyton 19

    From "Aunty Jacinda" to "Anti Jacinda".

    See how it's done.

  19. Muttonbird 20

    The freaks in the clown camp are now spitting on Police officers, presumably with the intent to infect them with Covid.

    But, Jacinta should go meet with them!

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-outbreak-wellington-protest-swells-police-officers-treated-by-medics-after-being-spat-on/V5KNM7WFFL4FFSHXASCOCWZ55U/

  20. newsense 21

    This is consuming a lot of political media. And a daily post of its own. After all the huffing and puffing what’s the real result likely to be? And while all the bizarre stuff is going on what’s happening locally that we’ve missed?

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