The difference between the Wellington protests and the pro Ukraine protests in Russia

76 comments on “The difference between the Wellington protests and the pro Ukraine protests in Russia ”

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1. Jenny how to get there 1

   26 February 2022 at 8:33 am

   The main difference is selfish vs. selfless

   The Russians being attacked by the Russian authorities for protesting, are acting selflessly to help people they don't even know who speak a different language in another country.

   The New Zealanders not being attacked by the New Zealand authorities for protesting, are acting selfishly to harm people they don't even know who speak the same language in the same country.

   …..We try to work out whether, on balance, we should send our kids to school. Into the line of fire of Covid, maybe.

   …..one of our kids has underlying conditions that mean he may be hit substantially harder than other kids his age.

   ….One of the things that is making our decision easier are the vaccine mandates. We know that all the adults our kids come into contact with are, at least, double vaccinated. Most are boosted as well. The mandates have extracted those who refused.

   Those protesting for the mandates to be removed are actively endangering my child’s life, and all of those kids who also have underlying conditions that make them more vulnerable. They are also endangering all those patients in the health sector who are more vulnerable….

   The mental dilemma of the anti-mandate brigade

   Andrew Dickson17:00, Feb 25 2022
   • mikesh 1.1

     26 February 2022 at 12:13 pm

     The Russians being attacked by the Russian authorities for protesting, are acting selflessly to help people they don't even know who speak a different language in another country.

     Or perhaps they are Navalny supporters who don't like Putin very much; using the invasion as pretext for kicking up a stink. Or am I just being cynical.
     • Jenny how to get there 1.1.1

       26 February 2022 at 1:33 pm

       The Russian Peace protesters are undeniably being treated very harshly by the Russian authorities compared to our so called 'Freedom" protesters.

       If I was you mikesh, I would answer your last query "…am I just being cynical."

       With a, "Yes"

       The first victim of war is truth.

       The second victim is civilians.

       ….three civilians had been killed in the eastern port city and six others injured in Russia’s invasion.

       Emergency services said a boy was killed in eastern Ukraine’s Kharkiv region after shelling struck an apartment building..

       …..a military plane with 14 people on board crashed south of Kyiv with officials still determining how many people died, while a transport plane crashed in Russia killing the crew.
       Russia denied reports its aircraft or armoured vehicles had been destroyed. Russian-backed separatists claimed to have downed two Ukrainian planes.

       Al Jazeera was unable to independently verify the casualty figures.

       https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/24/russia-ukraine-invasion-casualties-death-toll
     • North 1.1.2

       26 February 2022 at 1:54 pm

       Yes, cynical indeed. The lot of the pro-Ukraine protesters is seen in the bullet points. The Clownvoy likes to think it suffers; that too is seen in the bullet points.
     • CrimzonGhost 1.1.3

       27 February 2022 at 11:18 am

       Navalny supporters not the only political opposition to Putin. One thing in common between protests is many factions. Russian Neo Nazis love Putin.
2. Reality 2

   26 February 2022 at 10:00 am

   A letter to the Dom Post today suggests if the 'Camp Covid' protesters/idle and disorderly unhygienic layabouts/seriously disturbed, nazi sympathisers and any other categories, are so concerned about freedom they head or drive off, to the Russian Embassy in Karori.
3. Just Saying 3

   26 February 2022 at 10:04 am

   What's going on here?

   What is the reason for this post?

   I genuinely don't get it. This is a sad day, seeing this here.
   • Jenny how to get there 3.1

     26 February 2022 at 10:42 am

     Just Saying, what is reason for your objection to this post?

     Just asking.
     • Anker 3.1.1

       26 February 2022 at 11:11 am

       Just putting my twopence in here Jenny. I can't answer for Just saying of course.

       I don't object to the post. I am a beliver in free speech. But it seems like the posts underlying message, not so subtley made, is protesters in Russia good. Protesters in parliament bad.

       There are undoubtedly some peaceful protesters at parliament. Probably the majority. Almost 30% of them labour voters, 15% of them Green. That is nearly half of them at the time of the Curia survey.

       I have no doubt at all there are some very anti social types there and the alt right is involved too.

       I think we run into some very tricky territory if we start saying one group of protesters are good, one are bad.

       IMO the Govt has treated these people with contempt. Given 30% of them are Maori, I think the suggestion that the Maori caucus or representatives of this should have gone and talked to them. They are afterall citizens, even if some of us, myself included, have no time for their views.

       With the court judgemenat and the Govt rolling back on unvaccinated kids playing sport and the possibility that vaccine passports will no longer be required, it seems like the protesters did have some points.

       On the other hand without realizing it these protestors have been running their own scientific experiement. What happens when you get a group of people 70% unvaxed living in close quarters, when you have omicron presenting in the camp? Do tin foil hats work? (Of course they don't, but there is nothing like experiencial learning. Often it is better to let people find out for themselves rather than trying to change peoples minds. That doesn't mean I don't think the protesters should have been moved on.
       • Jenny how to get there 3.1.1.1

         26 February 2022 at 2:42 pm

         Hi Anker, have you never heard the saying, "Everything before 'But' is bullshit"?

         "I am a beliver in free speech. But it seems like the posts underlying message, not so subtley made, is protesters in Russia good. Protesters in parliament bad". Anker

         You're right it is not subtly made, that is exactly what the message is. You obviously don't agree with it.

         The Peace protesters in Russia are bravely protesting in a totalitarian state where protesters can receive long sentences in prison under harsh conditions.

         Pussy Riot sentenced to two years in prison colony over anti-Putin protest

         The Freedom protesters in Wellington are protesting in a democracy with a centre-left government, where they will not be jailed for protesting, at worst they could face charges for trespass and illegal parking, which might attract fines. The also might face charges for throwing exrement and charging police lines in a car. Even then they wouldn't be facing two years in a prison colony.

         You say you support free speech, but you oppose the appearance of this post?

         Can’t you see the contradiction?

         Unfortunately for you, (and fortunately for our democracy), you are not in a position to censor it.
         • Anker 3.1.1.1.1

           26 February 2022 at 4:01 pm

           Hi Jenny, I don’t agree “everything before but is bullshit”

           For example if someone said “I support labour, but I don’t like their housing policy “

           or “I agree with protesting, but I don’t like the way these protesters are conducting themselves “

           btw these are just examples, I am not attributing them to anyone.

           I sincerely do believe in free speech.
           and I think my opening remark was “I don’t object to the post” I do not think I could have be clearer.
           I was curious about the post. Personally I think curiosity is a good approach, trying to make sense of where others are coming from. Mickey has clarified it now, saying it was meant to be humorous.
           • Jenny how to get there 3.1.1.1.1.1

             26 February 2022 at 4:25 pm

             The sad thing is that Micky thinks this is humorous.

             A topic fit for laughs.

             Questions of war and peace, the right to protest, public health and pandemic response are not joking matters

             But hey all politics is pressure.

             I can only guess at the reasons for Micky making this qualification, which undermines his own post.

             The jokes on me for taking him seriously.
             • Jenny how to get there …

               26 February 2022 at 4:35 pm

               P.S. If this really is a humorous joke post Mickysavage should have made that clear at the beginning.

               On the other hand;

               Mickysavage may have been trying to placate his critics,

               If that is the case, then I think he went too far. And has undermined his whole post.
               • Incognito …

                 26 February 2022 at 4:40 pm

                 <sigh>

                 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comedic_device#Juxtaposition
                 • adam …

                   26 February 2022 at 6:45 pm

                   What, comedy on the standard supported by Incognito.

                   Well blow me down with a feather duster.

                   I do believe I need to lie down to relieve these vapors.
                   • McFlock …

                     26 February 2022 at 7:20 pm

                     I do believe I need to lie down to relieve these vapors.

                     This response still tickles: You're getting Covid you total casserole!
           • Jenny how to get there 3.1.1.1.1.2

             26 February 2022 at 5:07 pm

             "I was curious about the post. Personally I think curiosity is a good approach, trying to make sense of where others are coming from. Mickey has clarified it now, saying it was meant to be humorous." Anker

             Doubling down on the post-curious approach, but not being clear about what concerns you about it?

             Don't worry Mickysavage has placated your concerns. It was meant to be humorous, just a big joke, Ha Ha, we can all laugh it off. The protesters in Russia are anti-Putin pawns of the West being treated with kid gloves by their kindly leader who is busy saving lives in the Ukraine. The protesters in Wellington are heroes protesting a tyrant, being terribly abused and oppressed by the police on the orders of the evil dictator, who is busy trying to murder New Zealanders with poisonous injections. [sarc.]

             "I sincerely do believe in free speech.
             and I think my opening remark was “I don’t object to the post” I do not think I could have be clearer…." Bu-u-ut…..

             Thank you for all your examples kindly showing me contexts where ‘But’ is not bullshit. But In this context. Everything before ‘But’ IS bullshit.

             Personally i think Mickysavage has made a mistake giving in to it.
       • felix 3.1.1.2

         27 February 2022 at 7:46 pm

         To be fair though, Labour and National govts both have a long and proud history of treating maori protestors and activists with contempt.
   • Anker 3.2

     26 February 2022 at 10:57 am

     I curious about this post too.

     Does this now mean it is only o.k. to protest if you are protesting on behalf of others?

     Where does that leave workers who protest for themselves about their pay, etc?
     • left_forward 3.2.1

       26 February 2022 at 11:38 am

       These are questions you really ought to answer for yourself. But be careful of projection.. the OP didn't suggest these things at all.
     • mickysavage 3.2.2

       26 February 2022 at 12:45 pm

       Long time protester speaking here. Protests are important and serve a vital function. I draw the line however at death threats, use of nooses as props, blocking major thoroughfares for weeks, Q anon adherents and Nazis all propped up by a significant income flow from an unknown source.
       • Rosemary McDonald 3.2.2.1

         26 February 2022 at 2:58 pm

         There's protests, and I guess there's protests.

         https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/02/20/guest-blog-suzie-dawson-remembering-the-left/

         Perhaps you gave this particular one a swerve MS?
       • Cricklewood 3.2.2.2

         26 February 2022 at 6:41 pm

         But guillotines are ok right? Because political theatre.

         As for secret funds is that like the the trust set up for David Cunliffe's leadership run?
         • mickysavage 3.2.2.2.1

           26 February 2022 at 8:28 pm

           I would never ever talk about a professional relationship. But yes I know how to ask questions about cash flow and look at structures.
       • Shanreagh 3.2.2.3

         26 February 2022 at 11:46 pm

         Hopefully in Russia the signs, if any, are grammatically correct?
     • Jenny how to get there 3.2.3

       26 February 2022 at 2:02 pm

       Seems we have a new category of commenter, 'The post curious'

       To timid to state their outright objection.

       "What's going on here?" Just Saying

       "I curious about this post too." Anker

       "Where does that leave workers who protest for themselves about their pay, etc?" Anker

       Workers who protest for higher pay and better conditions, and win, set a precedent which has a flow on effect to other workers and jobs.

       It’s called raising the bar.

       https://raisethebar.net.nz/

       Protesters protesting to lift covid mandates have a flow on effect in bad health outcomes and hospitalisations for other citizens.

       While the two methods might seem similar, the aims and outcomes are not comparable.
       • Anker 3.2.3.1

         26 February 2022 at 5:16 pm

         Lol “to timid to state their outright objection”

         Jenny, if you are referring to me, nothing could be further than the truth.

         I won’t bore you with numerous examples from my personal life.
         but (and there’s that word again) on this site I have spoken up for gender critical (now also known as pro reality ) views. This I can promise you has not be easy. I have also spoken up on another blog site with gender critical views, got canceled and someone on the site accused me of hate speech. They latter deleted it because they likely realized under the current law it was quite defamatory.
         • Jenny how to get there 3.2.3.1.1

           26 February 2022 at 6:01 pm

           Anker

           26 February 2022 at 5:16 pm

           Lol “to timid to state their outright objection”

           I was trying to being polite.

           Timid, or dishonest, I don't really care why you hide your objections to Mickey's post.

           Why don't you tell us.
           • Anker 3.2.3.1.1.1

             26 February 2022 at 7:07 pm

             • Jenny, I have to say I think I have been completely clear.
             • I don’t object to the post.
             • I believe in free speech
             • I think the underlying message not so subtly made is Russian protesters good, parliament protesters bad.
               I am happy to flesh this last point out. I think the post was saying one group was all good, the other bad. I don’t think this all or nothing thinking is helpful about the folks at parliament. Often all ornothing thinking around a group means the group can be written off as having no merit, no value.imo it’s simplistic and unhelpful

             I really rather you stop the digs at me, eg implying my comment on free speech

             was bullshit, that somehow being curious was a new type of commentator who was too timid etc. ( but saying too timid was just being polite). Then I am timid or dishonest for hiding my objection to Mickeys post, even though I said I didn’t object to it. I don’t object to him putting his point of view across, but I do think it was unhelpful.
             jenny I don’t recall us interacting on the Standard much before. But I would appreciate it if you stopped the digs at me. Ta.
           • mickysavage 3.2.3.1.1.2

             26 February 2022 at 8:33 pm

             Jenny I mean this in the most gentle way but protesting to lift mandates in the middle of a Covid wave is silly.

             This is not a freedom good restrictions bad argument. This is a if we loosen things up more people will die situation. It would be good to maintain current health measures for a couple of months to see how things are going and then review. The mandates will be loosened. I do not think that now is the time.
             • Jenny how to get there …

               27 February 2022 at 7:20 am

               mickysavage

               26 February 2022 at 8:33 pm

               Jenny I mean this in the most gentle way but protesting to lift mandates in the middle of a Covid wave is silly….

               Micky, Forgive my but I am bemused by your comment. I have never argued to lift the mandates in the middle of the Covid wave.

               I think there are some seriously crossed wires here.

               Either you have misunderstood what I have been writing, or you have mistaken me for someone else.

               I have never supported these silly protests.and their crazy demands to lift the mandates.

               I have supported the government's science based approach to the pandemic the whole way. I have applauded and at times been amazed at the government's success in keeping our death rate and hospitalisations relatively low compared to other OECD countries.
               I have personal admiration of our Prime Minister as our country's leader during this crisis. In my opinion Jacinda Ardern is the best Prime Minister of my lifetime, (possibly matched by Norman Kirk).
               In my personal life, in my support of the government's science based approach, I fully comply with all the government's directions. I am double vaxxed and boosted and use the covid ap and show my vaccine pass where ever

               Where we may differ, Micky, is that I fully support the right to protest, but I strongly oppose all the illegally parked cars in the Wellington parliamentary precinct that are taking away people's freedom to go about their daily business.

               This is like no other protest I have ever attended, or even witnessed, even on TV from overseas.
               This is beyond silly.
               Towing away the protesters cars would be every other government's first move.

               I can not understand why all these illegally parked cars blocking Wellington streets have not been removed.

               There are lots of video of forklifts moving concrete blocks at this protest.

               Why isn't there video of forklifts removing vehicles and trucking them away?

               Like this?

               https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV5XH_H9GAk&ab_channel=CHYKKO
   • left_forward 3.3

     26 February 2022 at 11:35 am

     What didn't you get?

     It is perfectly clear.
   • Just Saying 3.4

     26 February 2022 at 11:36 am

     The reason is that it feels like nothing more than jeering. And through reading MS over the years he seems to be an intelligent and compassionate man. But one who today, appeared to use the tragic situation in the Ukraine to just get the boot in. Without content of any kind.

     So it seems MS is really angry, and fine, but its not like that anger has previously been denied an outlet. Its not as if this says anything new. And the sad thing is that regardless of anyone's opinion on the mandate protest, MS cheapened the Ukraine situation in using it as a vehicle to attack the mandate protest, not in a personal comment but in a post on TS.

     And that says something. Opinions will differ on what that says, but to me, this post is sad.
     • left_forward 3.4.1

       26 February 2022 at 11:51 am

       The Wellington protesters have given us all every reason to mock them because their protest appears selfish and incoherent.

       The Russian protesters appear in sharp contrast.

       And it is indeed sad, but MS is doing us a service by pointing out the irony.
     • mickysavage 3.4.2

       26 February 2022 at 12:25 pm

       Just saying

       The post is meant to be humorous.

       I am not angry at the Wellington protest, just bewildered. The sense that it is orchestrated from afar is very strong and any protest that has people thinking that they are suffering from Government mandated gamma ray poisoning while at the same time as they deny the existence of Covid is rather strange.
       • Just Saying 3.4.2.1

         26 February 2022 at 12:37 pm

         Maybe that's the problem. The post doesn't read as bewilderment, so your feelings aren't matching your words. And using the unfolding Ukraine situation for 'humour', not novel, original humour that says something new, brings a fresh perspective, but mere jeering. Would that be some kind of improvement regarding a tragedy that is happening now?

         The only good news is our freedom to say what we wish. But it doesn't grant either of us freedom from hearing what others think of what we say. I'm guessing this is something we agree on.
       • Anker 3.4.2.2

         26 February 2022 at 4:10 pm

         Hi Mickey, I find it bewildering too. Everyone who knows me in “the real world” knows I am staunchly pro vacation and take all possible measures to prevent the virus spreading. Two of the people I love the most will likely get very sick if they get the virus, despite being triple vaxed. So curtailing my activities is a small price to pay.
         I guess over the years I have known a few people with odd views on Western medicine. It’s never made sense to me and I have no time for them (there views that is). These people often have fixed rigid beliefs that are unshakable…….
     • Jenny how to get there 3.4.3

       26 February 2022 at 3:00 pm

       Just Saying

       26 February 2022 at 10:04 am

       What's going on here?

       What is the reason for this post?

       I genuinely don't get it. This is a sad day, seeing this here.

       Reply

       • Jenny how to get there

         26 February 2022 at 10:42 am

         Just Saying, what is reason for your objection to this post?

         Just asking.

       Just Saying

       26 February 2022 at 11:36 am

       ……it feels like nothing more than jeering.

       Can't attack the message, attack the messenger.

       Just Saying, have you never heard the saying. “Attack the ball, not the man”?
       • Just Saying 3.4.3.1

         26 February 2022 at 6:00 pm

         Yes I have, Shanreah.

         I wrote a comment using this very analogy very recently, and prior to your comment today.

         I expressed my honest opinion of the content of MS's post. I didn't attack his character, I didn't accuse him of being a Nazi, for example, and I didn't make any allusions as to why I believed he was posting as he was with words like 'deranged' or 'tin-foil hat', or 'far right.' I didn't suggest he believed other things, beyond what he had said, such as for example, that that people who believe as he does, believe that anti-mandate protestors are all going to die, and in doing so, use what he didn't actually say to cast him in a bad light. I didn't suggest he was a part of a simpleton hive-mind manipulated and funded by covert, and shady overseas interests, or suggest that he couldn't think for himself.

         Finally, I didn't say or imply that he was being paid to write for TS. I expressed my opinion of his words, the content of his post.

         Shanreagh, do you understand the concept of playing the ball and not the man?
         • Jenny how to get there 3.4.3.1.1

           26 February 2022 at 6:52 pm

           Just Saying makes the longest dog whistle in the history of the The Standard.
           [sarc/humor]

           ….I didn't accuse him of being a Nazi, for example, and I didn't make any allusions as to why I believed he was posting as he was with words like 'deranged' or 'tin-foil hat', or 'far right.' I didn't suggest he believed other things, beyond what he had said, such as for example, that that people who believe as he does, believe that anti-mandate protestors are all going to die, and in doing so, use what he didn't actually say to cast him in a bad light. I didn't suggest he was a part of a simpleton hive-mind manipulated and funded by covert, and shady overseas interests, or suggest that he couldn't think for himself.

           Mate, I think you need to be applying for the New Zealand Sheep Dog Trials

           Finally, I didn't say or imply that he was being paid to write for TS.

           You just did!

           [Ok, Jenny, time to let it go now – Incognito]
           • Just Saying 3.4.3.1.1.1

             26 February 2022 at 7:10 pm

             Sigh, no I didn't. It was a reference to a post by incognito this morning.

             A 'dog whistle' is a covert comment, one that only be detected by the person or group (or with a physical whistle, dog) it is directed at. I wasn't being subtle or covert, Jenny, how to get there, I was trying to be crystal clear in the examples I was using. I was explicitly and deliberately using examples of slurs that had been or were being directed at pro-protest commenters. I didn't imagine the fact would be unheard by anyone here, or even anyone who has been attending to the debate.
           • Incognito 3.4.3.1.1.2

             26 February 2022 at 8:00 pm

             Mod note for you.
             • Jenny how to get there …

               26 February 2022 at 8:13 pm

               

               You’re right. It was a bit like drowning kittens anyway.
         • Shanreagh 3.4.3.1.2

           26 February 2022 at 11:01 pm

           I may be going dotty but I don't think I have posted in this thread yet. So why am I getting the lecture about Mickey's posts and playing the ball not the man from Just Saying?

           But for what it is worth I have a view and that is that when one's country is involved, as opposed to a protest on or about an individual or group of individuals, a protest lifts itself to a higher level. When one is protesting against the warlike actions of one's own country, a country where freedom of speech as we have it not universal, it transcends, in my view, any protest that is going on here in NZ.

           So quite apart from MS' more light hearted comparisons the two are nothing alike in mana or content. The people in Russia protesting against the actions of their own country as it invades another, and presumably they are doing this while Russia is on a semi war footing, are taking a very real risk.
           • Just Saying 3.4.3.1.2.1

             26 February 2022 at 11:09 pm

             I apologise, Shanreagh. For some reason I got you mixed up with Jenny how to get there. I'll be more careful.
           • Shanreagh 3.4.3.1.2.2

             26 February 2022 at 11:13 pm

             Sorry I have posted but not actually on the topic of the two protests……more on the judgment and its implications.
           • Jenny how to get there 3.4.3.1.2.3

             27 February 2022 at 7:01 am

             
   • mauī 3.5

     26 February 2022 at 10:25 pm

     Sad day indeed… you wonder what Michael Joseph Savage would think seeing New Zealand's downtrodden precariat being shat on from a great height by whatever it is that is now the left.
     • Jenny how to get there 3.5.1

       27 February 2022 at 7:05 am

       Michael Joseph Savage who brought in mandatory conscription to fight the nazi scourge, would have been very proud of this governments courageous science based approach to fighting the scourge of Covid-19
4. Ad 4

   26 February 2022 at 10:15 am

   Mickey have they released the judgement from yesterday showing that the vaccine mandates were illegal for NZPolice and NZDF?

   The earlier Employment Court judgements related to border workers.

   Maybe, just maybe, those protesters have a point.
   • DukeEll 4.1

     26 February 2022 at 10:44 am

     No way. The clownvoy don’t have any legitimate point. If they did the, they would embarrass the government and show up the nastiness of its supporters. Can’t let that point be made now
   • ghostwhowalksnz 4.2

     26 February 2022 at 10:54 am

     The Judge has made an error of fact in the linking of Pfizer vaccine testing to foetal cell lines.

     Even the Vatican has issued a policy that supports that form of vaccine testing

     Im seeing an appeal happening soon and or a stay on his judgement.

     Im sure lawyers will also point out the decision only works for those who claimed a a particular religious reason for refusing vaccine.
     • Ad 4.2.1

       26 February 2022 at 11:07 am

       Let's have a closer look when the judgement is released.
       • Incognito 4.2.1.1

         26 February 2022 at 11:12 am

         https://thestandard.org.nz/convoy-protest-25-2-22/#comment-1868078

         https://thestandard.org.nz/convoy-protest-25-2-22/#comment-1868135
       • ghostwhowalksnz 4.2.1.2

         26 February 2022 at 1:19 pm

         A legal for media summary of the judges decision has been released (pdf)

         and says what I had said
         ‘the Pfizer vaccine had at some point been tested on cells that had been derived from a human foetus, and requiring vaccination by such a vaccine was in conflict with the religious beliefs of some of the affected persons.
     • Tony 4.2.2

       26 February 2022 at 7:58 pm

       The Vatican doesn't speak for quite a few people, bit out of date to use them as a useful guide to values and standards.
       • ghostwhowalksnz 4.2.2.1

         27 February 2022 at 11:28 am

         But it does show their reasoning on the 'moral issue of cell lines.'

         Its all glorified superstition to me to give some sort of medical testing process a past life as unborn children. While not common , its not unique to vaccines and of course umbililical cord fetal blood can be obtained at any live birth.
   • Shanreagh 4.3

     26 February 2022 at 11:42 am

     Discussion including judgment here. On Protest 25/2/22

     8.1

     25 February 2022 at 2:49 pm

     My view from reading the judgment is that it does not legitimise the protest unless you are one of the 279 members of Police/Defence it applies to. Very specific fact situation relating to these workers and I doubt, though willing to be corrected, that is would apply to others.
   • mickysavage 4.4

     26 February 2022 at 12:28 pm

     Hi Ad yep the judgment is at https://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/assets/cases/2022/2022-NZHC-291.pdf

     Contrary to some comments it is not a universal overturning of vaccine mandates, it is rather limited in its logic to the situation before it and the police still have means to enforce a mandate.

     It does recognise that mandates will have an end point. I am sure we all agree on that.
     • tsmithfield 4.4.1

       26 February 2022 at 1:13 pm

       But there are implications from this decision that businesses need to consider:

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/127893208/what-does-vaccine-mandate-decision-mean-for-businesses

       "But Duncan Cotterill partner and employment lawyer Olivia Lund​ said while the High Court decision was limited in its direct application, there were several parts applicable to private business.

       “The decision essentially upholds the freedom of religious beliefs and people’s right to uphold that. So if you have had an employee objecting to a vaccine mandate on those grounds, we now have a case that shows that is a valid objection to vaccine mandates,” Lund​ said.

       Employers would need to properly consider religious beliefs and what reasonable accommodations can be made to employees objecting to vaccine mandates on those grounds, she said.

       The second aspect of the decision for private employers was that the High Court accepted evidence that the effectiveness of the vaccine was reduced when facing Omicron, she said.

       “The acceptance that the vaccine is less effective against Omicron may call into question some decisions that employers had made, if they had undertaken a health and safety risk based on the vaccine stopping transmission.”"

       Personally, I support the protests to the extent that I think mandates are no longer effective or necessary, in that they don't do much to prevent transmission, and they are no longer needed in terms of encouraging vaccination since we are now highly vaccinated.
       • Shanreagh 4.4.1.1

         26 February 2022 at 1:45 pm

         Personally, I support the protests to the extent that I think mandates are no longer effective or necessary, in that they don't do much to prevent transmission, and they are no longer needed in terms of encouraging vaccination since we are now highly vaccinated.

         I think we need to be a bit more nuanced than this though. Lifting health protections when we have not even at the peak of our omicron surge is premature. PM has been at pains to say (the latest time this morning ) that they will be lifted when they are not needed. To lift them now so we have maskless and unvaccinated people roaming around is probably not a sensible move. The peak is forecast to be mid March/end March.

         What exactly is the problem with waiting a month or so?

         We are still trying to support our local businesses, mainly hospo or food. We'll just give this up altogether if masking or vaccination policies are not kept up until we are through the surge.

         We had our first personal instance of unpleasant maskless and unvaxxed people trying to get food at a cafe (seating and food to takeaway) yesterday in Otaki. Owner had a physically distanced line where we were invited to step forward one by one to the counter to choose and pay after showing our vax cards. Unvaxxed were catered for by a window out onto the road. They were not to come inside.

         A chin mask wearing person crowded in front of me, ignored the call to show the pass and walked right up to the counter. Escorted out to the window where they made a choice and had the eftpos machine passed out. He joined another totally unmasked person there and it was clear from the convo that this was a bit of a game, this harassment of shop assistants. They were both old enough to know better being in their 40-50s by the looks.

         An acquaintance who runs a takeaway bakery on the main road on Otaki shared her experiences when I was there last week. There the unmasked just glare through the windows at her. She says they seemed to object to her wearing a mask as well as the request that they be masked. Seems totally illogical to me.

         This is the second day in a row she has not been there. Level of horrible seems pretty high.
     • Shanreagh 4.4.2

       26 February 2022 at 1:47 pm

       Thank you MS. I have been trying to make that point as well.

       I found the reasoning on the religious side a bit odd. Seems he was influenced by some of the CTs around about how the vaccine is made.
     • Ad 4.4.3

       26 February 2022 at 2:50 pm

       The judge is saying firstly that Minister Wood was making poor orders on bad advice, and the Order had to be corrected. This is on an Order that came into effect just 2 months ago.

       The judge also says he's the guy with the main precedent decisions in this field so take notice.

       Then he says that the force of the Minister's Order was out of whack to the marginal difference it made over the vaccine policies already in place at NZPolice and NZDF.

       So on two counts the Minister had got his BORA balance wrong.

       I'm glad that a judge is getting on to this.

       But he also makes a really interesting point at the beginning: that vaccine mandates were OK last year because they demonstrably held a wave of COVID back.

       But now that COVID is utterly out of control, that question is completely open again.

       I hope NZDF and NZPolice take this to Appeal, and that the HRC support the people affected.

       Hopefully more such cases get up there. we need a Supreme Court case on this fast.

       This is showing all the hallmarks of government taking rights off us when there was a useful effect, then forgetting when to give them back.
       • McFlock 4.4.3.1

         26 February 2022 at 7:35 pm

         If it was a drafting issue or whatever, I'm happy with the concept that employers need to be able to write and implement policies correctly or the court rips them up.

         So while it can go all through the courts or even back to the legislature, the ideal outcome would be for the minister or whomever to review the judgement and issue a new directive that has the same outcome but explicitly (and truthfully) complies with the law.
       • ghostwhowalksnz 4.4.3.2

         27 February 2022 at 9:54 am

         'vaccine mandates were OK last year because they demonstrably held a wave of COVID back.'

         NO

         That was soley due to the border and lockdowns within NZ, allied with low case numbers which meant contact tracing worked

         We havent re-indroduced lockdowns BECAUSE we have high vaccination numbers , with mandates being a part of that
5. Peter 5

   26 February 2022 at 5:03 pm

   Let's see, the difference between the Wellington Protests and Russia?

   Ardern could come out on Monday and say there'll be no mandates anywhere about jabs or masks or numbers at events, the world is open people have the freedom they said drove them as the most important thing in the world.

   She could then say there's a ship leaving to take 5,000 to Ukraine to fight for precious Freedom. Be on the wharf next Sunday morning and the Ship of Freedom will sail. The streets of Wellington would be clogged with the thousands clambering over each other to be in the mode of their great-grand parents going away to fight for the most precious thing in the world.

   That it? No fucken way, they'll all be at home on Facebook talking about how brave they were, watching Married at First Sight on TV that they'd had to miss for a couple of weeks and toddling down to their local cafe to bask in the glory of the great warriors they saw themselves as.
6. Ad 6

   26 February 2022 at 5:41 pm

   A key similarity is that both the left and Putin are using claims that the whole thing being run by NAZIs as a pretext for taking any action they like.
7. adam 7

   26 February 2022 at 7:07 pm

   I know your using irony Mickey, but on a serious note.

   The Russian Anarchist peace protestors from the Crimea annexation in 2014 are still in jail awaiting trial. One of the arrested been granted conjugal rights. As he was married before the arrest, but that has been taken away again with the invasion, as his wife has now been arrested. Not 100% sure when she was locked up, but it does look like it was just before the invasion.
   • mickysavage 7.1

     26 February 2022 at 8:08 pm

     I have caused a considerable number of adverse responses to this post. I agree the Ukraine situation is deadly serious and in using the phrase "humour" did not intend to suggest that the situation was even slightly humourous.

     I am still perplexed by the Wellington protest. My emotions go through the spectrum of hatred for the far right, contempt for the organisers and their cash flow, pity and concern for some of the participants but when they start talking about Qanon and wear tinfoil hats then I know something is really wrong. That protest has the possibility of spiraling out of control really quickly. The state response has been weak and too many threats have been made against people I have a lot of respect for.

     Clearly some think it was in bad taste. Humour is the device I use to handle really difficult circumstances.
     • McFlock 7.1.1

       26 February 2022 at 8:20 pm

       Same reflex often gets me in trouble – and ruins the occasional date lol

       I thought it was a pretty good juxtaposition: people protesting in Russia are facing down the stuff that the tinfoil hat crowd in Wellington are leveraging for their own cause.
     • Anker 7.1.2

       26 February 2022 at 9:41 pm

       I didn't think it was bad taste. But people vary in what is o.k. for them. I hope you are able to see this for what it is. We all need to take responsibility for our own feelings. I hope this doesn't cause bad feelings for you. You strike me as the sort of person who tries to do the right thing.

       I see the whole protest thing from so many perspectives, I really do. And I feel incredibly sorry for amongst others, the police. Those guys on the front line facing the anti social behaviour and I suspect there are a number of people there who are anti social in the true (psychiatric) sense of the word.

       My most comforting thought is that this will end. It must do. People are getting sick, and the mandates will end.

       This is a really difficult time for our country. Probably the worse time since the Spring Box tour………..maybe worse. At least we had the end date for the tour.
       • Obtrectator 7.1.2.1

         27 February 2022 at 9:17 am

         "At least we had the end date for the tour."

         But not for its after-effects, which persisted till at least July 1984.
8. peter sim 8

   26 February 2022 at 9:17 pm

   Adults behaving like 3 year olds is dismaying. I blame the education system. SARC.

   No wonder d seymour courted them.
9. Pierre 9

   27 February 2022 at 8:43 am

   No Nazis spotted at the anti-war rallies in Russia, but Banderites are popping up at the "Ukraine Solidarity" demos everywhere else. Keep an eye out for the Blood and Soil flags.
10. observer 10

    27 February 2022 at 4:13 pm

    A genuine protest for freedom, central Auckland today:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/127902629/ukraine-invasion-hundreds-show-solidarity-at-auckland-protest

    Good on them.
11. georgecom 11

    27 February 2022 at 7:40 pm

    2 main differences stand out for me.

    NZ is being invaded by a virus, Ukraine is been invaded by a powerful neighbour

    Once Omicron is gone those at camp covid will still be NZ citizens, who knows what awaits Ukranians

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