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Convoy protest day seven

Written By: - Date published: 6:10 am, February 14th, 2022 - 540 comments
Categories: covid-19 - Tags: , , ,

Police issued a statement last night reassuring Wellingtonians about the safety of movement in the area around Parliament, and asking the protestors to cooperate with moving vehicles.

Wellington Police will have a highly visible presence in and around the Parliament grounds tomorrow to provide reassurance for those going to work and school in the city.

We will have foot patrols in around the area of the railway station, up Molesworth Street, and streets adjoining the protest activity. We encourage commuters to the area, to plan for continued traffic disruption, but we want everyone coming into the city to feel safe.

Police will also continue to monitor the protesters.

In the meantime, our planning for a way forward is advanced and we are urging leaders of various protest groups to work with us to clear the roads, and allow the public freedom of movement for traffic and surrounding businesses while retaining their ability to protest lawfully.

There are a number of complexities in dealing with protesters with a variety of causes and leaders, but we will persist in finding open lines of communication with group leaders as we urge them to engage to work with us.

We are offering to facilitate an alternative location for the vehicles and campervans, currently blocking streets around Parliament to be based, while they continue a lawful demonstration at Parliament.

We are also concerned about the number of children still present at the site, as health conditions particularly around sanitation, and risk of Covid, are now growing concerns.

There have been no further arrests.

RNZ also reported,

Wellington district commander Superintendent Corrie Parnell says there were about 3000 protesters present over the weekend.

There has been a constant precense of 400 to 500 protesters in tents on the grounds and in the surrounding streets.

The police don’t plan to wait the protesters out, Parnell said.

“The primary focus now is to appeal to those key organizers, leaders of the various factions there to engage with us.

Police have tried to engage with organisers, he said.

Covid-19 spreading through the crowd is a major concern for the police, Parnell said.

Sanitsation issues at the site is also a concern for police, Parnell said.

When asked if officials were too slow in responding to the convoy and allowing the protesters to erect tents at the site, Parnell said “hindsight is a wonderful thing.”

“We were fully aware of a convoy. I don’t think we’ve ever predicted the scalability and actually what’s played out here.”

The police were not involved in the decision to turn Parliament’s sprinklers on and to use loud music to try and get rid of protesters, Parnell said.

“It’s not a tactic we would encourage. It is what it is, it happened.”

He encouraged commuters to plan for continued traffic disruption, however, he said Police wanted everyone coming into the city to feel safe.

RNZ’s Mediawatch on the media coverage of the protests,

Covid skeptics occupied Parliament grounds this week under the banner of ‘freedom’ – and many other things. Did media coverage amplify their fringe views? Should media do more to understand them and what motivates their movement – in spite of their obvious hostility to the media themselves? Mediawatch asks an editor wrestling with those dilemmas.

Previous posts on The Standard:

The right to protest

Parliament protests and the road to splintered societies

540 comments on “Convoy protest day seven ”

  1. PsyclingLeft.Always 1

    I'd say not before time. These assorted one percenter's (if that?) have caused more than enough problems. People need to feel safe going to Work…and School !

    • Stephen D 1.1

      I'm beginning to think that if they can clear the streets and allow Wellintonians to go about their business, let the protestors stay until they get bored or dysentry.

      • Andrew Miller 1.1.1

        And the kids? Who lets be honest have effectively been used as human shields.

        What about the next lot who decide Camp Ground Parliament sounds like great strategy.
        Also, it wouldn’t be that difficult for this lot to set an endless roster of occupation that could go on indefinitely. There’s enough of the 1%ers who’d be up for it. Week on, three off sounds like a great lark.

        The Police by letting it go on this long have made it much harder for themselves, if for no other reason than there’s no coherent leadership and enough different agendas on site that ending it by appealing to reason may well be ship which has already sailed.

        Whilst let them get bored may sound like a nice idea, in practice it would be a disaster.

        • Jenny how to get there 1.1.1.1

          …in practice an open confrontation would be a worse disaster.

          A confrontation maybe what the extremists on both sides want, but it is not what most New Zealanders want.

          • Andrew Miller 1.1.1.1.1

            And if attempts to reason get nowhere and significant numbers of people simply refuse to leave, what then?

            Who then is an extremist?

            You’re making a bunch of assumptions about the reasonableness of the people on site which ignores mounting evidence to the contrary.

            • Jenny how to get there 1.1.1.1.1.1

              Andrew Miller

              14 February 2022 at 2:03 pm

              And if attempts to reason get nowhere and significant numbers of people simply refuse to leave, what then?

              Who then is an extremist?…

              I would say that those who would violently act to remove these protesters would be acting extremely. Though we may not agree with these protesters. Civil disobedience is a time honoured tradition among protesters in this country.

              Leave them alone I say. But on two conditions; That they remain peaceful and two that they agree to remove all their illegally parked vehicles or they will be towed.

              • Andrew Miller

                I genuinely can’t tell if you’re being deliberately disingenuous or just projecting what you want to be true.
                I can be bothered listing or linking to them as I think I’d be wasting my time, but the evidence of the extent to which there is a larger number of truly odious people who hold despicable views and have said despicable things keeps mounting.
                Students, workers, children have been/feel threatened, have been abused.
                What coherence anyone’s able to get clearly suggests there a ridiculously wide range of agendas down there, many absurd, some utterly beyond the pale.
                Yet you keep repeating the mantra that there’s a legitimate protest going on and it’s possible to some how address their concerns in a manner they’d be prepared to accept.
                It’s complete fantasy and you need to understand that people see through it (and that any claims around the reporting, people aren’t buying that either).

                Leave them there? I’m assuming you don’t live in Wellington, or indeed have any intention of protesting about something any time soon.

                Yes, civil disobedience is a time honoured tradition but if you knew anything about it’s history or it’s moral authority you’d know the instance’s people revere are all where protesters accept the consequences of breaking the law.

              • Andrew Miller

                When you have what we know has been going on in central Wellington, describing enforcing the law as ‘violence’ and ‘extremism’ is completely losing touch with reality.

    • Ross 1.2

      These assorted one percenter's (if that?) have caused more than enough problems

      The problems caused by the protesters pale into insignificance compared to the problems caused by lockdowns, vaccine mandates and passes. And when there are cuts to spending on education, health and welfare to pay off soaring Crown debt, I don’t expect to hear any complaints.

      • Andrew Miller 1.2.1

        Even if what you were saying was true, the fact you can’t (or refuse) to consider that any realistic counter factual could have lead to far greater problems and more significant harm makes it difficult to take you seriously.

        This isn’t the harm caused by mandates vs no harm, it was and will remain a complex trade off in which those in authority had to make decisions in the public good, none of which were going to result in no harm to some people on some level.
        If you want to make an argument about the merits of competing ‘harms’ fine, but it’s totally dishonest present only one set of harms as those worthy of consideration.

        Until you’re willing to do that, don’t expect anyone to your argument seriously.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 1.2.2

        “The problems caused by the protesters pale into insignificance compared to the problems caused by lockdowns, vaccine mandates and passes Covid 19.”

        FIFY

  2. gsays 2

    Since the convoy arrived at Parliament and set up tents, there is a surprisingly high amount of consternation.

    This may help.

    • fender 2.1

      Yeah….you better get vaxxed or you'll sink like a stone.

      Just remember it's the virus that's in control. Mandates will go when it's safe to do so. Looking at footage there appears to be many in the higher risk categorys present down there.

      • gsays 2.1.1

        I understand the mandates were introduced to boost the vax rate above 90%. Job Done.

        It seems very odd that this sort of legislation can be introduced without having an understanding as to how it will be walked back. Or will it not be walked back?

        • Shanreagh 2.1.1.1

          You understand wrong…..and this has been discussed before.

          There were wider reasons as well…..ill people have a right to expect that they will not get Covid when they go to hospital, when their oldies are in rest homes, when they go out to dinner they don't want a side of Covid as well,

          Firms have also seen that having a vaccinated workforce is good for business so for many firms this has become a work requirement much like clean drug tests and security checks are the norm in some.

          Minmising the reasons, as you are, as to why the mandate was brought in is not useful or helpful to a careful discussion.

          The PM has siad it will be removed when there is no further need. With Omicron surging I would have thought we still had the need to restrict possibly infected people to hospitals, etc

          The strange thing to me is that these anti vax/mandate people also seem to be heedless and uncaring about their own and others safety. Not wearing masks is the norm. Surely they do not believe the US wackos that Covid does not exist and that it is the vaccination that has caused the deaths.

        • Tricledrown 2.1.1.2

          Gsays you still don't understand that hospitals and supply lines are put under more stress without restrictions to slow spread help people recover quicker.

    • observer 2.2

      It's a shame they didn't listen to Bob:

      "Admit that the waters around you have grown
      And accept it that soon you'll be drenched to the bone"

      You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows.

      • gsays 2.2.1

        I have only lately come to appreciate His Bobness, as you are probably aware, the literal meaning is only one level of his prose.

  3. Grey Area 3

    Pretty clear who is in control of that precinct of our Capital city. Police say they can't engage with any leadership but they are not going to wait them out. How does that work?

    I don't see a clear way out of this. I still don't understand why a firm perimeter wasn't put in place from the beginning as it was pretty clear protesters intended to stay.

    Allowing people to come and go seemingly at will from the beginning seems to have facilitated events.

    • Andrew Miller 3.1

      Indeed. The Police talking about 20/20 hindsight is all fine, but there’s things they could have from the off that would have meant they needn’t have ended up in such a difficult situation.

      You’d like to thought given they knew they were comes and had good reason to predict what they’d do, you’d have hoped they had a clear strategy. It doesn’t appear to be the case.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.1.1

        Well…there is that old Truism (or oxymoron) : Police Intelligence.

        Although some of the earlier "Gently does it" approach with…the likes of bishop Brian and associated and assorted alt/far right " vaccine protestor " groups made me wonder at their agenda…..

        • Andrew Miller 3.1.1.1

          I was initially sympathetic (failure to secure the perimeter aside) if their reasoning was the presence of the children, but they don’t appear to have thought of a strategy to break the obvious impasse that causes.

          • mpledger 3.1.1.1.1

            Parliament grounds is an open space with low fences, there is no possibility to secure the perimeter. Although, I see that changing very quickly.

            • Andrew Miller 3.1.1.1.1.1

              I think a Police cordon could have prevented a lot of the coming and going.

              I really hope I’m wrong as we’re lucky in this country to have such a beautiful an accessible Parliament grounds for both protesters and the general public (my kids love the playground and being able to run around) but my fear is after this there’ll be calls for all that to change to prevent a repeat.

              People forget that having a parliament so accessible isn’t that common around the world.

            • coge 3.1.1.1.1.2

              The numbers are now too high for any effective perimeter. The perimeter would be at risk of becoming enveloped. Circumvallation. Be a waste of time and resources. Lifting the mandates would be the quickest solution.

              • observer

                Lifting the mandates would be the quickest solution.

                Mila Kunis does not return my calls. All I want is a date. That would be the quickest solution.

              • McFlock

                um – the perimeter has large buildings to the back, connected by tunnel to another building across the road.

                But keep your fantasy – you do realise Caesar won, right?

      • McFlock 3.1.2

        maybe they figured it would be another "tractor on the steps" protest and everyone pisses off home?

        Or the kids at the time. By the time the tents were going up, active intervention by the cops would have caused a riot – and there weren't enough cops for that on day 1 (although if it had been a climate march, there probably would have been – that's the cognitive bias of the establishment, right wing protestors aren't as bad as left wing or PoC).

        • Andrew Miller 3.1.2.1

          If Newsroom were capable of monitoring the social media of the ‘Convoy’ and were able to note it seemed to be being hijacked by more radical types with very different agendas, surely the Police could have as well?

          • McFlock 3.1.2.1.1

            sans cognitive bias, maybe. But there's a difference between a convoy/hikoi (which has been done before by left, right, and everywhere around the two) and here-to-stay

    • weka 3.2

      Pretty clear who is in control of that precinct of our Capital city. Police say they can't engage with any leadership but they are not going to wait them out. How does that work?

      I don't see a clear way out of this. I still don't understand why a firm perimeter wasn't put in place from the beginning as it was pretty clear protesters intended to stay.

      Allowing people to come and go seemingly at will from the beginning seems to have facilitated events.

      Does it actually matter if they are there?

      • Cricklewood 3.2.1

        In the scheme of things no. Far worse if govt start interfering in the right to protest.

        Having a left govt set that precedent would be disastrous.

        • weka 3.2.1.1

          I think the police are being sensible in not pushing for a violent confrontation. I was surprised they didn't do more, but someone said yesterday that they locked one of the gates with a chain, so the protestors cut the chain and used it to padlock the gate open, lol. (and police really shouldn't be locking the gate anyway, for safety reasons).

          Beyond that, trying to remember how long Occupy lasted in various NZ places.

          • Cricklewood 3.2.1.1.1

            I agree, it needs to be allowed to runs its course. Minimize the disruption and although it might take a while it will end.

            Hamfisted attempts to end it early will just make things worse.

        • Andrew Miller 3.2.1.2

          What is more likely to effect the right to protest long term?

          This government ending the occupation of parliament and telling protesters that their rights have reasonable restrictions around others being able to go about their business and parliament grounds being a public space for everyone not a camp ground or…

          Letting this drag on for goodness knows how long and with whatever ongoing disruption and the next National government putting measures in place to ensure something like this can’t happen again in line with a significant public mood that the whole thing is unreasonable and an embarrassment?

          Seems pretty obvious to me which is more likely. I think it’s reasonable to conclude the longer it goes on the likelihood of there being violence goes up not down

          • weka 3.2.1.2.1

            That National might want to remove rights to protest isn't a good reason for protestors to self restrict now. Nor for Labour to take action out of fear of National.

            • alwyn 3.2.1.2.1.1

              "National might want to remove rights to protest".

              Where are they proposing that? And I mean recently, not back in 1951 say.

              After all if we follow that line we would have to consider the Labour Party actions back during WW2.

              • weka

                read Andrew's comment.

                • alwyn

                  "the next National government putting measures in place to ensure something like this can’t happen"

                  OK In that case I should have been addressing my comment to Andrew. Here goes. Where have they given any indication that they would do such a thing Andrew?

              • Andrew Miller

                I’m talking purely in hypotheticals and saying that the likelihood of the right to protest being impinged upon is far greater from letting this drag on than it is from thinking the government looking to end the occupation infringes on the right to protest.
                Obviously I have no idea what National’s position may be, but it’s hardly beyond the realms of possibility they look to restrict access to the grounds for future protest in response to anger from ‘middle NZ’.
                Does anyone seriously believe that if this isn’t ended soon that once it does, the response will be to go back to the status quo of open access with the possibility the next protest turns to camp site?

                As to the idea that such a scenario shouldn’t impact on what we consider reasonable from the current lot, that rests on so many misconceptions as to who’s actually there and why and just the practical implications of such a view.
                There are countless reasons why this lot need to bugger off or the Police need to come up with a strategy to end it asap, the damage it may well do to our long term access to Parliament grounds be it for protest or recreation is but one.

                • alwyn

                  Your statement seems to go a great deal beyond saying it is " hardly beyond the realms of possibility".

                  That statement can I would say, be able to be said about any political party.

                  I don't think for example that I should be able to say that Labour Party Ministers are likely to all be serious criminals on such a flimsy ground that "it's hardly beyond the realms of possibility". After all there was one some years ago.

                  • Andrew Miller

                    If your problem is me implying it requires a National government to do that, I’m happy to retract it and put forward the exact same hypothetical regarding Labour.
                    I wasn’t trying to make any sort of party political point, but simply looking to address the potential of future restrictions caused by this dragging on vs the government (any government) having the police end occupation.
                    If you want argue about which party is more likely to do that fine I have view, but I think the potential exists whoever is in power.

                    • Andrew Miller

                      If anything my point is more around any government that chooses to put restrictions in place push at an open door with regards public opinion.
                      “We support the right of peaceful protest, but are not prepared to see Parliament grounds trashed and people going about their lawful business impeded, therefore…”

                      isn’t likely to get much push back if this isn’t ended soon.
                      People need be careful what they wish for if they’re going to oppose this being ended asap.

              • Cooper oil

                2013.The Crown minerals (permitting & crown land) bill had some amendments that restricted protesting at sea.

                • alwyn

                  I believe they were relating to the danger of people getting in the way of vessels under way where interfering with their navigation and operation represents a danger to the life of all people present.

                  That is from memory by the way. I may be wrong.

                  • weka

                    Intent was to stifle protest.

                    Look to recent UK Tory attempt to bring in laws that would suppress protest.

                  • Cooper oil

                    It also allowed the Defence Force to arrest and detain protesters outside the 12 mile limit.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.2.2

        "Does it actually matter if they are there?"

        I don't think so, other than the Covid spreading risk.

        I suggest towing vehicles away and policing antisocial behaviour (so others can go about their day), and let them protest. The mandates will likely end anyway in a few months, then they can pack up and go.

        Alternatively, leave the protesters but remove their supply lines (e.g. stop tents, bedding, food etc being brought in).

        • weka 3.2.2.1

          The covid risks seems the main issue to me (in them staying, and in the police doing mass arrests again)..

          I suggest towing vehicles away and policing antisocial behaviour (so others can go about their day), and let them protest. The mandates will likely end anyway in a few months, then they can pack up and go.

          Yep. Pushing the protestors to sort out their behaviour seems a good next move.

          Alternatively, leave the protesters but remove their supply lines (e.g. stop tents, bedding, food etc being brought in).

          Tricky I think because it's restricts access to public space. Can't stop people carrying food either.

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.2.2.1.1

            "Tricky I think because it's restricts access to public space. Can't stop people carrying food either."

            Probably, although is common at music events to not be allowed to bring in chairs, alcohol etc, including events on public grounds. You would only be preventing food in a specific space. Plus things like those hay bales etc – could be stopped.

            • weka 3.2.2.1.1.1

              people need those things for health and safety. Can't really see it's ok for the state to do that.

          • mpledger 3.2.2.1.2

            I don't think it is strictly public space. The pubic are allowed there but it's with permission. Not like public space such as a road or footpath.

            That’s why Mallard can set a trespass notice.

            • weka 3.2.2.1.2.1

              yes. I was thinking public space like a library or park. I think the principle remains, you need a really good reason to prevent people from walking through there, and blocking essential supplies is not on. These are conventions we should be protecting dearly in NZ.

    • McFlock 3.3

      It's a public area and people do have a right to protest – many, many rallies have taken place on that lawn.

      But normally they piss off to the pub, rather than shitting in place.

      • weka 3.3.1

        If we taught how to protest in schools and unis there'd be less problems with this protest 🙂

        • McFlock 3.3.1.1

          Those were the days. Two hour facilitated discussions on the difference between "nonviolence" and "non-violence". The latter being where you wanted to break shit but still keep your hippie cred.

          "Activism in Aotearoa". That was the name of a regular conference/workshops ISTR. Wonder if it's still going?

          • weka 3.3.1.1.1

            how not to shit in your own nest 101.

            I do think they got the car blockade right tactically, and I suspect they won't want to cooperate with removing them because it would allow police vans better access for arrests (still want a map of what is actually happening).

            • McFlock 3.3.1.1.1.1

              Blockades are an effective tactical move (lol pun intended), but also a weird one. I can't help think there's a lot of "fuck the city folk" in there as well as being anti the government.

              Strategically, it's really not a way to win support for your point of view. I don't see covid relief funds going to the businesses that closed because of this, or the workers whose commute has been lengthened and made a bit more scary.

              • weka

                Not sure if winning support of city folk is part of the current strategy. I'd say they're high on their success and thinking they can wait the government out. Probably not strategising politically. Some will be waiting for the opportunity to go all commando.

                A lot of the suggestions here are sensible, but isn't the point that there is a chunk of society that thinks that harassing people is ok?

                • McFlock

                  A lot of the suggestions here are sensible, but isn't the point that there is a chunk of society that thinks that harassing people is ok?

                  not sure what you mean by that. Agree with the rest, though.

        • Peter 3.3.1.2

          If we taught other things in school maybe there'd be less ignorant people to protest.

          • weka 3.3.1.2.1

            such as? I'd put civics high on the list and critical thinking. Probably science literacy as a specific topic.

            • Peter 3.3.1.2.1.1

              Such as how to read, and analyse and appreciate there are other perspectives.

              Having said that, no matter what is done in school the massive majority of kids lives are not spent there. The periods of time spent with people trying to have their minds opened are likely to be far less than with those teaching them to have closed minds.

            • Shanreagh 3.3.1.2.1.2

              Yes I would argue for those as well. And one called 'how to tell when your Google searching is providing you with rubbish' though this would hopefully be included in critical thinking.

        • Ross 3.3.1.3

          If we taught how to protest in schools and unis there'd be less problems with this protest

          If we taught wannabe MPs how to make smart decisions and to follow the science, we probably wouldn’t have protests. 🙂

    • Jenny how to get there 3.4

      Grey Area

      14 February 2022 at 7:21 am

      …Police say they can't engage with any leadership but they are not going to wait them out. How does that work?

      It doesn't work. And a violent confrontation is inevitable.

      A diplomatic and political solution needs to be found to avoid further violence.

      Instead of standing around like dummies or even inflaming the situation with immature stunts. Our leaders need to start leading, if their efforts in finding a peaceful solution are rebuffed then so be it. But our politicians need to make the first move. Afterall isn't negotiation supposed to be their job?

      To avoid confrontation, a political solution is needed. Both sides need to brought together to agree to some terms to avoid a violent outcome spriraling out of control cause for even more grievance.

      One of the clearest demands of the protesters to emerge is that they want to directly address their concerns to the politicians..

      Surely some means could be found todo this safely?

      Obviously our MPs cannot go in front of this crowd when some extremists among them have threatened to commit violence and even kill government MPs.

      I would like to suggest that the protesters be asked to choose representatives from amongst them selves who they feel best represent their views and interests to be part of team to meet with representatives of the government.

      This could be done face to face inside parliament if the protester's representatives agree to abide by social distancing and mask requirements.

      If the protesters representatives can't agree to these conditions, a zoom conference is another alternative for the two sides to meet. Both types of meeting to be live streamed by media of both sides.

      The agreed terms of reference could be,

      1/ The protesters agree to be peaceful. In return for an assurance of peaceful protest only, the protesters will allowed to remain in front of parliament until they leave by their own accord.

      2/ The immediate removal of the illegally parked vehicles either voluntarily by the protesters, or their removal by the authorities.

      3/ Gauranteed safety for journalists and reporters and photographers and TV crews who may wish to cover the events, free from threats of violence and intimidation.

      4/ A hotline between the protesters and the government and media at any alleged breach of these agreed conditions.

      5/ On these agreed conditions the trespass order be suspended and the police presence scaled down.

      6/ Maori Wardens be employed to further keep the peace on condition that they be treated with mana and respect by all sides.* Maori Wardens also have access to the hotline number.

      Confrontation avoided.

      *(As per Molly’s suggestion).

  4. Peter 4

    Matt King on RNZ this morning continually talked of "interviewing" people on site.

    Doesn't he just 'talk' with people? Or is he working on some project and gathering information.

    He must have been a bundle of laughs as a cop. "Excuse me ma'am, you're not wearing a seatbelt."

    "But officer we don't have mandates in this country so I don't have to wear one." "Okay, on your way."

    Knock! Knock! "Sir, your kids aren't going to school. They have to go to school."

    "Sorry officer, we don't have mandates in this country. They're staying home."

    "Okay, you can home school them then."

    "No officer, we don't do mandates in this country."

    • Jenny how to get there 4.1

      What other mandates could Mat King not have enforced as a police officer?

      The mandate against recreational drug use? maybe

      The mandate against illegal parking? certainly.

      Going on his present behaviour he mustn't have ever enforced that last one, otherwise he would be a total hypocrite now, or alternatively a bent cop then.

  5. observer 5

    Good move to keep this off Open Mike. There are other things happening in the world.

    Matt King getting a free ride from Ryan Bridge on the AM show. Luxon will be relieved that idiot has quit National, one less headache for him.

    • barry 5.1

      Matt King may be one fewer headache for Luxon, but it does illustrate National's selection problem. They have selected too many loose cannons in electable seats and high(ish) list rankings. With Pugh and Hipango also barely being kept in line and several other MPs with rather odd views, he can hardly afford any more loons to be selected.

      Labour has had a few odd selections over the years, but have mostly managed to get reality-based people into winnable positions.

  6. observer 6

    Meanwhile, back in the world inhabited by everyone else … a remarkable achievement for Aotearoa New Zealand to be proud of:

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 6.1

      Fantastic! This is what will actually make Omicron more bearable, including for health workers. These stories from the Australian health system during omicron, are terrible:

      How the Omicron wave smashed hospitals

      • McFlock 6.1.1

        jesus, that's tough.

        And some fucking know-it-all will just say "oh, the nurses don't need to take time off if they test positive". And ignore the bit about New Year's Eve levels of paramedic calls every single day.

    • Blade 6.2

      A penny for the old guys’ thoughts.

      • fender 6.2.1

        He's thinking: Well even the worst possible side-effects couldn't be any worse than having to put up with the wearisome ravings from that blunt Blade character wink

        • Blade 6.2.1.1

          Talking of wearisome ravings.

          It's hard enough listening to the Queen of the hive give her daily repetitive talks from the pulpit of truth.

          Then the worker bees produce the same on this blog. Double whammy!

          Fender:

          "Labour doesn't give a shit" Might need a citation for that one. The measures put in place are to protect EVERYONE.''

          Speak for yourself.

          • fender 6.2.1.1.1

            If you're unwilling to accept measures are necessary to protect the population only because your ultra partisan belligerence won't allow you to, then sorry I can't help you.

            Hope you've looked at the front-line hospital staff accounts from NSW in the link provided by UncookedSelachimorpha at 6.1 above. It's a great indicator of what to expect when political leadership is negligent.

            • Blade 6.2.1.1.1.1

              ''If you're unwilling to accept measures are necessary to protect the population only because your ultra partisan belligerence won't allow you to.''

              I have, and will, except all reasonable measures. However, the operative word here is ''reasonable.''

              NSW has 8.2 million people.

              4,618 have died ( directly or indirectly?) from Covid.

              Again, you are basing your Covid perception on lives saved – and not the cost of lives to be lost and destroyed by economic measures in NZ.

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/300514647/covid19-owner-of-popular-west-auckland-restaurant-on-the-brink-of-losing-it-all

              Quote:

              ”There seems to be a lot of confusion about what the regulations actually are. We’ve had a lot of phone calls with people either confused about whether we’re open, whether they can come in and whether they can dine as a group.

              I won't carry on about Queenstown's hospo industry on the verge of shutting down.

    • Tricledrown 6.3

      Looking at moh covid stats numbers of older people being hospitalised is much lower than those under 65.

      Immunisation is working.

      Boosters are better than conspiracy theories at protecting the most vulnerable.

  7. Jenny how to get there 7

    'We are persisting in opening lines if Communication with group leaders"

    At last. At least someone us starting to show some leadership, and attempt to negotiate with them.

    Why aren't our elected leaders?

    Time to stop the childish games.

    One of the clearest demands of the protesters is to meet with the politicians.

    The protesters should be asked to elect representatives from amongst themselves who they think best reflect their views to form a delegation to enter parliament to meet with MPs to put their grievances before them.

    As guests these delegates from the protesters must agree to wear masks and adhere to parliament's distancing protocols during these negotiations. As well as mainstream media coverage, The protesters must be allowed to livestream these negotiations through a media outlet of their choice.

    Remember; 'They are us'

    • observer 7.1

      That's not going to happen, obviously. But as a thought experiment, let's imagine that it did.

      After the negotiations, the "leaders" agree to leave. But they are not a single, organised group, with a single, agreed agenda and structure. The "leaders" have no power to mandate (irony!) the rest.

      So 200 protesters reject the "sell out" decision to leave. What happens then?

      • Ross 7.1.1

        Sell out decision?

        I’m not seeing the PM rescinding vaccine mandates and passes as a sell out. In fact, it would be a win for all concerned, for her, her Government, most importantly the public, and protesters. Making the right decision doesn’t need to be a competition between good and evil lol

        • observer 7.1.1.1

          You haven't understood. Try again.

          • alwyn 7.1.1.1.1

            You're right of course. I'm sure you will say that there is only one way to deal with them.

            Bull Connor of Birmingham, Alabama unfortunately died a long time ago. We could always ask Ross Meurant, formerly of the New Zealand Police, for advice though. Bring back, and send in, the Red Squad.

            Is that your solution?

            • observer 7.1.1.1.1.1

              No, and I haven't suggested it. Can you try and engage with what people actually say?

              • Jilly Bee

                Observer – IMHO Alwyn never engages, he simply sprays and walks away, as does one or two other commenters of the same ilk.

                • alwyn

                  Never engages?

                  I routinely engage. The thing that annoys me is when someone says something like "You haven't understood. Try again" rather than trying to explain what they aren't supposed to have understood.

        • Muttonbird 7.1.1.2

          Rescinding vaccine mandates and passes would not be a win for the vulnerable communities for which they were introduced.

          That fact is, mandates and passes are directly responsible for lifting our vaccination rate to 95%. This is robust protection against Covid overwhelming our fragile health system.

          That done, they are still in place because having unvaccinated pandemic deniers wandering around in public facing jobs, deliberate spreading a virus they believe doesn't really exist is still a massive risk to those vulnerable communities.

          The anti-vax mob needs to go sit in the corner until next summer. Then we'll see.

          • Cricklewood 7.1.1.2.1

            Yes mandates drove our vax rate up, job done but they are going to do very little to reduce spread of Omicron.

            At this point they are doing more harm than good. Casting people from society isn't going to end well, we can see the beginnings of that in Wellington and it will get worse. That's damage that will be very hard to undo a graceful way out needs to be found.

            • Muttonbird 7.1.1.2.1.1

              Vaccines do reduce the spread of Omicron.

              Vaccinated people are not as unwell and because of that the virus does not transmit as effectively.

              Vaccinated people do not present at hospital in such great numbers.

              Vaccinated people are likely to be more compliant with other health measures like social distancing, mask-wearing, and remaining in work bubbles.

              It's pretty important to keep educating people about the benefits for all of the vaccination program, rather than allow a small, self-interested and paranoid group of misfits to spread wild anti-vax and pandemic denying theories.

              • I fear you're flogging a dead horse here, Muttonbird.

                All this has been patiently explained many times by many commenters on here and other platforms.

                The science says you are 100% right – people who have disappeared down a rabbit hole are impervious to the truth.

                Full marks for trying though.

                • Muttonbird

                  Yeah, it's exhausting trying to help anti-science people.

                  • Grey Area

                    Saves us from having to do it. 😀

                    Seriously thanks for doing the heavy lifting. People like you articulate better than some others like me can.

              • Cricklewood

                Whilst there is a reduction in spread the fact that Omicron evades vaccines means we will all be exposed sooner or later. The unvaxxed are mostly a risk to themselves.

                At this point it is a question of which is worst, for me creating a bunch of radicalised citizens is going to be far worse in the long term.

                • mpledger

                  The unvaxed are a risk to other unvaxed people, some of whom might not have been able to be vaxed for medical reasons.

                • Belladonna

                  One element which I haven't seen addressed is the fact that vaccinated people infected with Omicron are much more likely to have asymptomatic Covid (that is, not even display the mildest of symptoms).

                  https://www.healthing.ca/diseases-and-conditions/coronavirus/omicron-asymptomatic-rate/

                  And, of course, aren't going to queue up to be tested for no reason (and, in fact, are specifically being told *not* to).

                  This makes them a *more* likely vector than the relatively small number of unvaccinated people in NZ.

                  Which brings us back to the RAT tests being used overseas for precisely this reason – routine testing of apparently 'healthy' people on a daily basis to detect asymptomatic cases.

                  • Shanreagh

                    Continued masking is important here too for vaccinated and not. Wellington being a highly vaxxed city is also a highly masked city.

                    Masking seems to have been ignored as being part of the NZ Govt 'plot' or because they believe the US wackos view that masks cause lung cancer or that the people who have died from Covid were the ones who had been injected with Covid as part of the vaccination programme. (I wrote about this the other day and will bring the link back up.)

                    The 'logic' there works:

                    I have not been injected with Covid as part of the vaccination programme

                    therefore

                    I do not need to wear a mask.

                    Arps has been arrested in Picton so that bad boy won't be joining his mates.

                    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/127766088/white-supremacist-philip-arps-arrested-after-alleged-public-execution-comment

                    PM & Bloomfield talking about Omicron Phase 2 response and allegedly the protest at 4.00pm.

                  • Cricklewood

                    That is mentioned in the UK monitor report as a key reason why case rates per 100000 are higher in the vaccinated community.

                    It could be said with Omicron the double vaxxed are most likely to spread the virus given the unvaxxed are more likely to be unwell to the point where they are home in bed quite quickly.

              • gsays

                With a nod to minimising misinformation:

                "Vaccinated people do not present at hospital in such great numbers."

                Wrong.

                7 day rolling avearge of hospitalisations has 65% of new hospitalisations are either fully (45%) or partially (20%) vaccinated.

                https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/450874/covid-19-data-visualisations-nz-in-numbers

                Just over half way down the page.

                • UncookedSelachimorpha

                  A pity you are statistically illiterate, or are you being deliberately misleading? You are ignoring the relation with population rates – if you look at that, you clearly see the huge effect vaccination has on preventing hospitalisations.

                  That link you give shows the eligible unvaccinated are 6% of the population but have been 35% of the hospital admissions.

                • Shanreagh

                  You fail to mention the impact if Simpson's Paradox on these numbers.

                  70% of people in hospital drawn from say 150,000 unvaxxed is a much higher percentage than 16% of 3M. NB these figures are just to illustrate.

                  Noone has said that vaccinated people will not get Covid. They have said that usually a fully vaxxed and boosted person they will usually get a milder case. There will still be some vaccinated people who have other comorbidities. possibly even the ones that led them to get the vaccine in the first place. So my fully vaxxed/boosted friend who has severe Asthma as a comorbidity, could end up with Omicron and in hospital. This is why she limits going out in crowds and wears a mask when out.

                  • Nic the NZer

                    Not really a Simpson's Paradox issue actually. Its a comparison between populations of (vastly) different sizes as you highlight. Its a really trivial flaw in statistical reasoning highlighting that gsays is in fact statistically illiterate.

                    A Simpson's Paradox is actually difficult to understand and occurs when there is a confounding factor (e.g age). The paradox is that the overall rate can be outside the bounds of all cohort rates, even the reverse of them, when the cofounding factor is not taken into account.

                    A pretty good explanation is worked through here,

                    https://www.covid-datascience.com/post/what-do-new-israeli-data-say-about-effect-of-vaccines-boosters-vs-death-critical-severe-disease

                    • Shanreagh

                      Yes you are right……smiley

                      I've just become enamoured of these staistical/mathematical paradoxes, actually any paradox and see them everywhere. Go nicely with what I know about logic/fallacies.

                      I blame being exposed to Fibonnacci, Arabic mathematicians et al at a later stage in life. If only I had known maths etc was so interesting…the history of numbers is fascinating, ditto when numbers don't appear to work ec etc.

                • Tricledrown

                  Gsays your adept at pushing half truths.

                  Just picking one statistic and not providing the full picture .

                  Givin those who aren' fully vaccinated which is now 3 doses.

                  Not 2 or 1.

                  Your information is out of date.

                  Full vaccination for Omricon is 3 doses.

                  Then looking at Comptons law.

                  Because the numbers of 2x vaccinated are 80% plus.

                  You would think the numbers of not fully vaccinated would be much less in hospitalisations.

                  But 5 times more than double vaccinated and 15 times more hospitalisations for unvaccinated compared to 2×+ booster.per head of population.

                  Looking through the other stats you provided it all shows unvaccinated by far have made up the largest numbers of hospitalisations.mostly younger people to.

            • UncookedSelachimorpha 7.1.1.2.1.2

              We are currently still seeing 500-700 people per day getting their first dose. Probably quite a bit of that is driven by mandate requirements.

              Assuming they go on to be double-dosed, and half get infected with Omicron, 500-700 people vaccinated likely means around 20 – 30 less hospitalisations (around 8% hospitalisation rate in unvaccinated / never infected), which is quite beneficial!

              • Cricklewood

                Be interesting to see an age breakdown, wonder if it's mostly younger age brackets

                • UncookedSelachimorpha

                  That would be interesting. MOH publish vaccine uptake by age, but only cumulative to date, not by day etc. So can't see recent rates vs age.

                  Maybe it is buried in their more detailed data somewhere.

                • Belladonna

                  I suspect that it is age related. I know quite a number of parents with kids turning 12 in Jan-Feb – who held off on vaccination, to give them the 'adult' dose – especially tall solid kids who are pretty much larger than many slight adults.

                  The junior dose wasn't calibrated for weight – so the same for a tiny 5 year old, as a sturdy 11.5 year old who would be twice the size)

      • Jenny how to get there 7.1.2

        The purpose of the negotiations is not to get them to give in to our demand to leave. Any more than it is for us to give in to their demand to 'to remove all mandates. But a chance for them to air their grievances. Also to open up channels of communication about removing vehicles to allow local businesses to operate and WellingtonIan's to get about freely in their city. Other topics could be how to avoid open confrontation and possible violence..

        • solkta 7.1.2.1

          Negotiations about moving vehicles is a matter for the Police.

          • Jenny how to get there 7.1.2.1.1

            Removing illegally parked vehicles is a matter for the police. I agree and should have been done long ago. If this had been a left wing protest any illegally parked vehicles would have been towed away on day one.

    • Muttonbird 7.2

      Will they be able to show their Vaccine Pass at the door?

      • alwyn 7.2.1

        From what Bryce Edwards said on Morning Report today, they probably could. He has apparently been down there every day. From what he said a lot of the people he has spoken to are fully vaccinated. They are opposed to the Mandate, not to vaccination. I'm unable to comment on the accuracy of that. Is there anyone here who has been at the demonstration and has spoken to the protesters, who can comment?

        • Muttonbird 7.2.1.1

          Dr Bryce has slipped down the alt-right rabbit hole, unfortunately.

          He now masquerades as a spokesperson for democracy, but has forgotten what "for the good of the many" means.

          • alwyn 7.2.1.1.1

            I realise that he doesn't spout the accepted party line.

            However do you know that what he said is wrong or are you repeating what you have been told is the story according to the single source of truth?

            In other words have you actually been there and talked to them?

            • Muttonbird 7.2.1.1.1.1

              You admitted you don't know what he said was right, so yeah.

              For some reason, Bryce has developed a bitter agenda against the Labour Party. Perhaps it's because of the increased profile of Maori within the party, and the increased focus on outcomes for Maori. I don't know.

              His alignment with various free speech coalitions certainly points to that…

              What I do know is he will be using these protests to undermine New Zealand's magnificent Covid-19 response.

              • weka

                For some reason, Bryce has developed a bitter agenda against the Labour Party. Perhaps it's because of the increased profile of Maori within the party, and the increased focus on outcomes for Maori. I don't know.

                His alignment with various free speech coalitions certainly points to that…

                Evidence for his alignment with various free speech coalitions. And why you think he has a problem with the increased profile of Māori within the party.

                • Muttonbird

                  It's an observation based on his platforming of Graham Adams and Elizabeth Rata on the democracy project. Both are heavily against any kind of reintroduction of Maori to decision making processes and believe, like David Seymour, The Treaty is not something to be considered when trying to lift Maori up.

                  You could say Edwards isn't responsible for the writings of his contributors but I assume he did invite them, and as we see here and at Kiwiblog, hosts/editors do have a responsibility to monitor and edit contributions.

                  I pulled up this article where Bryce shreds Labour's water reform proposals. He basically accuses Labour Maori of being too powerful and does his usual cut and paste run through of government critics, carefully labelling old Labour cranks like Chris Trotter as the voice of the left. Trotter claims white Labour ministers are intimidated by Mahuta and the ret of the Maori caucus.

                  Like many Bryce Edwards articles, there is next to zero input from anyone which supports Labour's work.

                  And there are many, I am one.

          • weka 7.2.1.1.2

            Dr Bryce has slipped down the alt-right rabbit hole, unfortunately.

            what's the evidence for that?

            • Cricklewood 7.2.1.1.2.1

              He disagrees with Muttonbird's world view?

            • Muttonbird 7.2.1.1.2.2

              Edwards is very vocal against the government's pandemic response. Health and economic outcomes in this country clearly say otherwise.

              He claims to be non-partisan but here, using his benign sounding democracy project, he calls NZ's Covid response, "a constitutional disgrace". At once the government is not urgent enough, yet also too urgent, or something.

              This is one example of many Edwards' articles which do not inform the reader properly of both sides of the issue. His main criticism here is that the government didn't plan for an ever changing pandemic situation.

              I don't truely believe Edwards is alt-right in the original American sense of the term, but I do know that many of his criticisms of the Labour government and us 'woke' followers are very similar in tone to those used by the real alt-right against their phantom opponents.

              Edwards seems to be terrified of some sort of government overreach, and his recent joining of the anti-vax protest really does add to that picture.

              Have a look at his Twitter when you have a moment.

              • weka

                cheers

                I thought his photos and vids from the protest are a boon, because they show different things from the MSM and reasonably neutrally. I take your point though.

                • Muttonbird

                  It's difficult for MSM to get in there because they are being abused, threatened and spat on for wearing masks.

                  One bespectacled guy with sympathies, a scarf and an iPhone is not so much a threat, so has access.

          • swordfish 7.2.1.1.3

            Dr Bryce has slipped down the alt-right rabbit hole, unfortunately.

            Well, no, you on the other hand inhabit a claustrophobic Woke echo-chamber [crude, warped, low-resolution comprehension of the World … abstract, superficial grandstanding & virtue-signalling rather than grasping the ethical & moral complexities at ground-level] … so you'll inevitably demonize anyone outside the Critical Theory Cult as "alt-right" (as you heroically 'Do the Work') … in much the same way that Scientologists see the outside World in equally paranoid, cult-like terms.

            Edwards pursues a calm, reasonable approach, eschewing the self-interested melodrama of the Woke #FakeLeft.

            • DukeEll 7.2.1.1.3.1

              Faaarrkk, leave the poor Person a little dignity. Spot on or not, that cut deep

              • Muttonbird

                I'm fine, thanks. Swordfish used to be a great commenter here. Not sure what happened but he has slipped down the alt-right hole as well.

        • observer 7.2.1.2

          Plenty of people in Wellington have been down there and reported what they saw and experienced, on social media …

        • Kiwijoker 7.2.1.3

          Alwyn. The present mandates are not a singularity that can be switched on or off, rather they exist as a result of business and public institutions independently or as a matter of public health policy instituting them to protect clients and staff.

      • Jenny how to get there 7.2.2

        I doubt any would have a legally obtained and valid vaccine passport. But if all the other health and safety protocols are agreed to be followed, mask wearing, social distancing temperature checking, hand sanitation. Then hopefully the risks of infection will be minimal.

    • Andrew Miller 7.3

      By ‘protestors’ do you mean the significant number of far right agitators that have hijacked the convoy or the ‘leaders’ of said convoy who’ve already buggered off, or just the ones on site who are actually well meaning with coherent demands?
      Good luck working out who’s who, or indeed with the idea that should Politicians actually address them they’d be satisfied and leave, as opposed to think ‘Well we got that concession, what else can we get if we go nowhere’. I bet that’s more likely than ‘Thanks, we’ll head home now’.

      The piece on Newsroom made it pretty obvious that continuing to just see this a group of people opposed to mandates is deluded.

      • observer 7.3.1

        Yep. That's the point I made upthread, which went over a few heads even though it is blindingly obvious.

        Any compromise agreement reached with "leaders" of protesters would be unacceptable to many other protesters – who would have no obligation or incentive to accept it.

        • Andrew Miller 7.3.1.1

          Yes and within incentive is clearly ‘interest’. No idea how many this applies to, but there’s clearly people involved for whom the ultimate goal is the disruption/disorder up to and including potential violence.
          There seems to be a lot of wish fulfilment on the part of some people who want to pretend we’re talking about a group all acting in good faith who might just hold views we disagree with.

        • UncookedSelachimorpha 7.3.1.2

          One thing you could never accuse the protesters of is having a Hive Mind.

          • Andrew Miller 7.3.1.2.1

            Quite and there under no obligation to share a coherent world view but it’s ridiculous to pretend it doesn’t have significant impact on whether anyone is will to talk to them.

      • Jenny how to get there 7.3.2

        Andrew Miller

        14 February 2022 at 9:07 am

        …..Good luck working out who’s who, or indeed with the idea that should Politicians actually address them they’d be satisfied and leave,…

        They have made it clear they are not going to leave. I never said that getting them to leave should be the purpose of opening up negotiations with them. The purpose must be to try to avoid unnecessary violence and resulting life changing injuries that will come with the use of force to drive them out.

        As for working out who's who My suggestion is that they be asked to do that themselves. That they choose their own representatives to meet with the government.

    • solkta 7.4

      What do you mean "at last"? What do you think Police have been doing from the start? Do you know what "persisting" means?

      • Blade 7.4.1

        Solkta – what were you saying to me the other day about not having read something that was already in the media? I'm just trying to remember.

        • solkta 7.4.1.1

          I was saying that you just come here to spread rhetoric and don't actually gather information before you prattle. What is your point?

          • Blade 7.4.1.1.1

            I just wanted to confirm I wasn't making a rash judgement about you.

            You have confirmed your bias and one eyed ideologue stance.

            That's all.

      • Jenny how to get there 7.4.2

        solkta

        14 February 2022 at 9:13 am

        What do you mean "at last"? …

        What I meant by 'at last" is that at the beginning when Mallard first issued his trespass order and called in the police. The first thing the police started doing was arresting people.

        The police have since backed down on trying to enforce Mallard's trespass order, showing they have more impulse control and common sense than Mallard.

        The police have also said that this situation will not last and they will eventually have to act to enforce Mallard's order.

        To avoid further mayhem and possible bloodshed Mallard needs to rescind his trespass order. To not do so will be a monstrous mistake that will hurt this government.

        For goodness sake man, remove their illegally parked cars, if the protesters choose to fight you over that. That is on them.

        Why is Mallard fixated on the protesters, and not the cars?

        Is Mallard not aware that civil disobedience is a time honoured protester tradition.

        But leaving them with their vehicles makes their stay easier. Is Mallard deliberately setting up the conditions for a violent clash between the protesters and the police?

        A confrontation is exactly what the extremists among the protesters want. And Trevor Mallard is walking into it.

        Trevor Mallard needs to stop his massive ego driven dick waving. To prevent disaster, cooler heads need to step in.

    • mpledger 7.5

      There is no negotiation possible because their demands are stupid at this point in time. Yesterday there were 810 new cases of covid-19 – how can ending the public health measures they want be sensible?

      • Jenny how to get there 7.5.1

        mpledger

        14 February 2022 at 9:25 am

        There is no negotiation possible because their demands are stupid…

        I agree. Their demands are stupid.

        Negotiation to give in to their demands are not possible. I am fully aware of that.

        Negotiations to get them to give in to our demand that they leave, are also not possible. I am fully aware of this also. I wish it was different. I really do.

        I am hoping that negotiations to avoid a violent confrontation in which people may be hurt are possible.

        Let's do things different to the rest of the world. Let's put the Prime Minister's call to "Be Kind" into practice, not just be kind to our friends, we were going to be kind to them anyway, but be kind to our enemies as well.

        • McFlock 7.5.1.1

          They're not going to leave, and their demands will not be met. Meanwhile, conditions will get steadily worse.

          Might end up getting more in hospital from all the camping-in-close-proximity diseases than we do from any forced evictions.

          • Jenny how to get there 7.5.1.1.1

            Maybe as one of the conditions that they stay is that they agree to us erecting a medical station to check on their health, even give them covid tests if they are feeling ill..

            But I think you are wrong, it will never get to that. The police say that they are not prepared to wait them out. So unless something changes, a confrontation is inevitable. And it won't be pretty.

            Be Kind. Yeah Right.

            (I can see the bill board now)

            The police don’t plan to wait the protesters out, [Wellington district commander] Parnell said.

  8. dv 8

    Did any of the South Island convoy get across (in the ferry)?

    • Cricklewood 8.1

      Some, there are quite a few people camped in Picton as well.

      • dv 8.1.1

        Thanks Cricklewood

        So did those that traveled over have vaccine passes?

        as
        “Interislander ferry to require vaccine pass or recent test from passengers

        • Cricklewood 8.1.1.1

          Some with passes some with negative tests, I read in the Facebook group that there have been difficulties accessing RATS in Picton.

          Its worth joining the Facebook group its over 75000 people now, just to get an idea of how things are operating. There are a lot of generous people donating food, clothes, even booking hotel rooms so there are showers available for the frontliners look at the hay delivery yesterday as an example.

          • alwyn 8.1.1.1.2

            I have never joined Facebook so I can't check what you mean by "its over 75000 people now".

            Does that mean that there are 75,000 people who have actually signed up in support of this protest or is it just 75,000 people who have merely glanced at something about it?

            If it is the former it seems to be incredibly high. And NO. I refuse on principle to have anything to do with Zuckerberg's monster so I'm not going to enrol, or join or whatever you do to find out.

            • Cricklewood 8.1.1.1.2.1

              75000 people have applied to and joined the group.

              • aj

                75000 people have applied to and joined the group.

                Are they all New Zealanders. Somehow I doubt it. Don't underestimate the power of Facebook to aggregate people with similar opinions.

                • Cricklewood

                  The vast majority are by the looks, I had a bit of a scroll through found old colleagues, people I went to school with etc. Its not altogether surprising through necessity the unvaxxed have been forming pretty tight communities and we probably have in the region of 200k unvaxxed and another cohort who are vaxxed but anti mandate.

                  It appears to be very well moderated.

              • alwyn

                Thank you for the response. It seems an amazing number to me, wherever they come from.

          • Shanreagh 8.1.1.1.3

            You just watch and get updates…..if that is joining??????

            Not sure what you mean by joining is there a form to complete etc. This group could be filled with people just 'joining' to find out if the rumours about RW infiltration are true.

            • Cricklewood 8.1.1.1.3.1

              A form no, but you need request to join and then be accepted into the group by a moderator to view it.

              Sure there will be interested spectators in there and they are quite quick to gett rid of the trolls nonetheless it's still alot of people and from what I can tell from randomly looking at the membership list most a NZrs and it's very active. Some posts are getting 1000s of comments.

  9. The voice of reason:

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018830406

    Jacinda Ardern, Morning Report 7.48mins

    The voice of an idiot:

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018830401

    Matt King, Morning Report.

    • Rosemary McDonald 9.1

      Such a pity Corrin failed (again) to do his job and ask the PM a couple of …challenging…questions.

      Like asking her about those people who have experienced severe and persistent side effects from the Pfizer product.

      (One group on Faceache talking about this numbers over 50, 000. That's fifty thousand people in NZ who have experienced significant side effects..or someone close to them have.)

      I quickly emailed Morningreport and asked for them to raise the issue.

      Of course he didn't ask her about that…and she just banged on and on about all the anti-vax signs she saw…

      I sent another email…

      I asked you to ask her about those who have had significant adverse effects from the Pfizer product.

      Very important question and one of absolute major importance to the protesters.

      You didn't ask her….and you wonder why many of us hold you in the media in total contempt.

      Now…do what you usually do and turn my contempt into a threat of violence.

      Sincerely….

      I await a response. #notholdingmybreath

      On the other hand. Corrin Dann put a considerable amount of effort into trying to get King to focus on the negative, but King was emphatic that the vast majority of the people he engaged with were anti mandate rather than anti vax and that he saw nothing of the violent anti vaxxer crowd it is being suggested predominate.

      Dann tried to falsely claim that there are no mandates…that old chestnut…and King was very clear that if you are obliged to get the Pfizer product to keep your job then that constitutes a mandate.

      Thank you Tony Veitch (not etc) for posting those…I listened in real time peripherally (in between sending emails and getting Peter up and into his wheelchair) but it is good to go back and listen with 100% attention.

      Ardern not willing to engage with the protesters and only seeing the few signs that are extreme and she gets a pass from the interviewer. King actually spends real time with the protesters, delivers real world examples of the impacts of the mandates and gets arseholes from Dann. Fair and unbiased media…

      • solkta 9.1.1

        Matt King Coal is a merry old soul

        but he is also an idiot.

        Dann did well.

        • Blade 9.1.1.1

          He has more brains than Jacinda by the looks of it.

          • solkta 9.1.1.1.1

            Did you listen to the interview? This guy has fried his chances of being re-selected as the National candidate for Northland.

            National sure do know how to pick em. First they had that prominent New Zealander, then Hoss from Bonanza, followed by Matt King Coal. I can't wait to see who the next one will be.

            • Blade 9.1.1.1.1.1

              Stay tuned. If an early election looms they will have to pick another outlier.

              Hopefully not someone like David Benson-Pope.

              Oh, geez, nasty!!

              • solkta

                I'm not even going to ask you about why you think there might be an early election. I learnt my lesson last time.

      • Matiri 9.1.2

        From a nurse friend at our local medical centre this week:

        "People turn up with what they think are vaccine reactions and are fully investigated as per Best Practice and then said patients go to NZDSOS who are giving them COVID vaccine damage diagnosis via Zoom consult and prescribing inappropriate medication."

        NZDSOS – New Zealand Doctors Speaking Out With Science

      • weka 9.1.3

        (One group on Faceache talking about this numbers over 50, 000. That's fifty thousand people in NZ who have experienced significant side effects..or someone close to them have.)

        This alone should ring critical thinking alarm bells. Where does the 50,000 number come from? Who assessed this? How was this assessed? What criteria was used?

        Why aren't even half of the 50,000 speaking out? It's an extraordinarily large number.

        Why hasn't someone gathered together good case studies and published them online. No, don't tell me to go look on FB, if the stories are real and meaningful it would be easy enough to do this. I gave this challenge to Bill as well. The problem is that it relies on having an actual protocol for evidence gathering rather than relying on rumour. Which is what you've been doing, posting rumours here about all these harms and they're just so vague as to not make any sense.

        I know people that had side effects from the vaccine, including myself. A lot of people do. I also think it's quite likely that people with chronic health conditions that involve the immune system will have relapses or worsening of their condition and last time I looked there wasn't a lot being done on tracking that. So it's not like I think the vaccine is perfect or that big pharma aren't capitalist arseholes. But I just don't see the evidence for what you claim.

        I also know from pre-covid experience with anti-vaxxers or vax hesitant people that the stories often lack credibility, there's no explanation for how the harm occurs physiologically (or worse, really bad science is used by people without adequate science literacy), and again, rumours get passed around and built upon. I've seen you describe the issues some of the people you know are having and I've not seen explanation for how it was established that it was the vaccine rather than another cause. Baseline concepts like correlation =/= causation, or confirmation bias. Same with Bill. This doesn't mean no-one is being harmed, it means the evidence base is just shoddy. Sort that out and people might take it more seriously.

        If the claim was 5,000 I might take it more seriously, but 50,000? Pull the other one. If those people cannot present evidence why should they be believed? If the claims are true, it’s not going to be *that hard.

        • Rosemary McDonald 9.1.3.1

          I was going to respond at length, with links for fucking Africa, but what's the point?

          Your mind is made up. Nothing I or any one could say will sway you. But if you could be bothered looking at the last Medsafe report…No. 39 you will see there are 45,000 complaints made since the roll out began. Of course the majority have been dismissed as not serious…but they were serious enough for someone to make a report.

          • solkta 9.1.3.1.1

            There it is again: 'I was going to offer lots of links but they are all fucking bullshit.'

          • weka 9.1.3.1.2

            Rosemary, are you suggesting that we should accept self-reports of symptoms as caused by the vaccine without establishing that they actually were? And that we should base public health and vaccine safety on that rather than science?

            • Rosemary McDonald 9.1.3.1.2.1

              If you have been following the roll out of the novel mRNA products worldwide you will have noticed that from day 1, worldwide, the default position from 'authorities' and 'experts' has been to assume that any symptoms post injection are merely coincidental and the sufferer has to prove that the shot was the cause. Every single Medsafe report in NZ has belaboured that point.

              This is the absolute default position worldwide… and very, very peculiar, when one actually thinks about it, when what is being administered to the world is a pharmaceutical product based on very new and novel technologies.

              It is very, very difficult for someone suffering from significant and new (for them) symptoms in very close temporal proximity to having had a dose of one of these novel mRNA products to be repeatedly told by medical professionals that the mRNA product could not possibly be the cause.

              This stance from authorities has been relentless and unwavering driving many of these sufferers to seek support from social media based groups…many of which worldwide have been heavily censored or deleted by those social media sites.

              Even today, here in NZ, that site with over fifty thousand members is regularly placed under warning from Faceache for breaching 'community standards' for posts that might talk about a person with no previous history of seizures collapsing and seizing within minutes of having their shot in a mall- based 'vaccination' centre and subsequently being told that such a reaction is 'normal'

              There are many, many accounts like this. And they are mostly found away from the mainstream because there has been active censorship and denial that there are any issues for some people from these novel mRNA products.

              And this is the same all over the largely 'western' world. In the absence of an authority actively collecting these accounts in an unbiased and open minded manner (and hence producing 'data') these almost all become mere anecdote.

              Excellent result for the authorities and an even better result for the manufacturers.

              When these products were rolled out early 2021 there was initially a keen uptake. Based on % of eligible people having had two doses… there was a leveling out at around 65% in most countries. Even in countries with very high case and death rates from Covid the 'vaccine' rollout stalled at around 65% with two doses. To my knowledge there was no 'official' inquiry as why this was…never did I hear or read that it could be due to adverse effects from the mRNA products in the mainstream.

              Then the mandates were brought in. The coercion and the pressure did have the desired effect to drag many over the line, but then the protest action began….all over Europe and the UK….huge marches that got little or no attention from mainstream media. This protest action has ramped up, worldwide, as governments began setting about giving these novel mRNA products to young adults and children.

              Young adults and children where the risk from the mRNA products outweigh the risk from Covid.

              Anyhoo, that's me for a while as on top of my usual responsibilities there is storm damage to clean up. One of our trees blocked in two or three of our neighbours…

              Do continue holding the line…cheeky

              • higherstandard

                Hi Rosemary

                I hope you and Peter are both well.

                Your post is factually incorrect, the side effects of the vaccine used in NZ are usually mild and are well documented and reported. Serious adverse events are rare and again are taken seriously by HCPs as documented by the numbers reports forwarded to CARM and Medsafe.

                The myocarditis reports are rare but taken seriously my friends in other departmenst tell me they have on average 3 or 4 patients per week come through on referral from GPs and that while most on further testing and examination don't have myocaditis there are rare patinets that do – they are them given appropriate advice and/or treatment until the myocarditis resolves.

                I think most here understand your and Peter's decision not to be vaccinated and while I disagree with your reasoning I still respect that right and don't believe you or Peter should be disadvantaged due to that decision.

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  Your post is factually incorrect, the side effects of the vaccine used in NZ are usually mild and are well documented and reported.

                  With respect….you are mistaken, or misled. Many, if not most reports are dismissed as coincidence and hence not attributed to the Pfizer product. I have to ask…how many of your friends and family have had new medical issues in close temporal proximity to having the Pfizer shots?

                  Many sufferers are simply not reporting and/or go no further than the initial call to Healthline, who in the early months assured callers such symptoms as irregular heart rate and chest pain/tightness were 'normal'. None of the four people I have personally spoken to who had quite severe symptoms of myo/pericarditis made a report to CARM…even though two of them thought they were going to die at some point. The system was set up to dismiss these complaints.

                  That's why there was the well publicised letter in December…because medical professionals were simply not taking these heart issues seriously.

                  Add to that the systematic censuring, naming and shaming of doctors who have supported patients to make decisions regarding the Pfizer product and have given advice on home management of Covid and we now have a health system that might meet the needs of the compliant majority but will fail those who, for their own reasons have chosen differently.

                  None of my four friends/family who had these symptoms…after willingly taking the shots…. want to have the booster. They are terrified…and if there is further mandating, like 'fully vaxxed = 3 shots as for the health sector, then I don't know what they'll do. What with mortgages to pay and all that.

                  And folks wonder why the streets where packed with Convoy supporters on the foul-weather day when the vehicles were making their way south and north.

                  Right. Break over. Back to my chainsaw and woodchipper.

          • weka 9.1.3.1.3

            Your mind is made up. Nothing I or any one could say will sway you

            Mind made up about what? That would be a really good example of you just not listening, again. I've said multiple times that I think vaccines cause harm. The issues are how much and whether that rate outweighs the good from the vaccine, and how we establish what is really going on.

            You threw out a rumour of numbers, I put up a considered response to that, actual arguments rather than rhetoric. Sceptical yes but also pointing to how we could get better knowledge about what is really going on if the non-vax side would use some actual methods of information collection and analysis that didn't rely on reckons, feelings and guesses but instead collated evidence.

            There's nothing inherently wrong with people working with their own symptoms and trying to figure out what is going on outside of the mainstream narrative. But if you are going to make claims of fact then there needs to be some kind of evidence base beyond self reporting, esp when it comes to public health.

            "I had chest pain after the covid vaccination" is not the same as "the covid vaccination caused my chest pain". It really concerns me that you appear to not understand this, or at least that you gloss over the difference in the rush to support your position.

    • Jenny how to get there 9.2

      Matt Kind the ex-cop who doesn't believe in mandates, covid mandates, but also parking mandates.

  10. I think the government have a problem.

    They have withstood Trevor's sprinkler and cheesy music attack, and the worst of the Wellington weather. So, anything from now will be easy.

    They could potentially keep this protest going for weeks if they want to. I imagine there would be enough around the country to start rolling shifts of protestors.

    • observer 10.1

      If that happens, I'd suggest National will have a much bigger problem.

      Given the instincts of most conservative voters, they are more likely to want stronger police action against "rentamob" as they would usually call them. You can hear it already: let law-abiding Kiwis get on with their business, no more soft policing etc.

      At what point does Luxon change tack? It's tempting as a political stance: tough National versus wet-bus-ticket ineffectual Labour. "How long will she let this go on?", demands Luxon in the House. (After the polls have given the green light, of course).

      If the alternative leader to Ardern is all for cracking down on people who want to get rid of Ardern, where does that leave them?

      • aj 10.1.1

        I'd suggest National will have a much bigger problem

        Matt King's interview on RNZ really was an eye opener. This will not have helped Luxon.

      • DukeEll 10.1.2

        Yes, as the government in charge I can really see how this is now National's problem. It's so blindingly obvious that national will be the ones to lose after they resolve the issue.

  11. Blade 11

    Listened to Mikey interview former police negotiator, Lance Burdett. He's probably the nearest thing we have to Joe Navarro.

    Burdett basically confirmed everything I have stated about handling the protest.

    Where he differs with me, is his suggestion that in the first few days a handful of representatives from the crowd should have been selected to meet a high ranking government minister.

    I doubt that would have worked because there are no clear cut leaders. And going down that course would have allowed such a group to 'counter negotiate' with a minister and demand Jacinda address the crowd. Or demand other concessions.

    And would the crowd have accept that deal? No, they came for Jacinda, and apparently I'm told, Andy.

    If Comrade Bob, Dixie Chick, Maru, Sally and Dakker had come out from such meeting and then addressed the protesters it wouldn't have made an iota of difference.

    Jacinda meanwhile has been listening to her spinners: ''Take your children and go home she is now saying.' That’s just another take on politicians kissing babies on the election trail. It’s an emotional plea.

    https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/lance-burdett-former-police-negotiator-says-a-different-intervention-is-needed-for-parliament-protestors/

    • Ad 11.1

      Emotion is a proper part of judgement, which the protest group prefers to use, so the Prime Minister has chosen to communicate that way to affect their judgement.

      More appropriate than using the Army to pull vehicles away.

      • weka 11.1.1

        What's wrong with using the Army to clear the streets of vehicles? (in addition to whatever else is done)

        • Ad 11.1.1.1

          No need to impose effective martial law when you can use parking wardens and towies to do the same job.

          The army has no place against our citizens.

        • Cricklewood 11.1.1.2

          At best you will end up with footage of protestors v soldiers on the streets of Wellington, at worst it turns into a physical confrontation which I suspect would be likely as the real hardliners amongst the protestors would relish the opportunity to create Army fight its own citizens headline. Way to much risk involved

          • weka 11.1.1.2.1

            are you thinking the protestors will defend their vehicles?

            • Cricklewood 11.1.1.2.1.1

              Yes I do, for some they are also their homes or only asset they own.

              I also think that the extremist elements amongst the crowd would relish the opportunity for the worldwide publicity not to notoriety amongst their peers that taking on soldiers would bring.

              Might be wrong but not worth the risk.

              • aj

                relish the opportunity for the worldwide publicity

                Exactly what they are wishing for. Martyrdom. Which is why the police should only be

                1. Controlling the perimeters and preventing reinforcements from joining. Easier said than done
                2. Only allowing food/medical supplies through
                3. Arresting anyone with the perimeter with cause. Eg threats, violence, disorder.
                4. Towing all illegally parked vehicles away
                5. Prepare for a long haul on this.
        • Puckish Rogue 11.1.1.3

          Do you really want to set a precedence of sending in the military to clear out protestors?

          • weka 11.1.1.3.1

            definitely don't think the military should be engaging with the protestors. Towing vehicles seems a bit different but I guess it depends on whether the protestors are there to try and stop them.

    • weka 11.2

      Jacinda meanwhile has been listening to her spinners: ''Take your children and go home she is now saying.'

      Where has she said that? Link with timestamp if needed.

    • Blade 11.3

      Chris Trotter is right on the money again. What a pity this guy is a Leafty. The Right's dearth of talent could be filled amply by this guy,

      ''It is a genuine mystery why neither the Government, nor the senior Police commanders, were able to grasp the nature of the challenge they were facing. It was clear to every thinking New Zealander that the protest action represented by the “Freedom Convoy” was of a new and potentially extremely dangerous kind.''

      You and me both, Chris.

      • mac1 11.3.1

        Finally a term of political opprobrium I can wear with accuracy and pride- a 'Leafty'. It combines political leanings, EV ownership and a preference for non-bagged tea.

        "Leafty'- a bagging I can wear……

      • Peter 11.3.2

        Do you think the Government and Police should sack lots of people and get you and Chris on board to be expert advisors on "the nature of any challenge they face" and "grasping challenges'?

        • Blade 11.3.2.1

          I don't think we could do any worse, Peter, provided the gummint gave us all the information to start with. That's something this transparent government isn't good at.

  12. Ffloyd 12

    Do you suppose that a large section of this crowd is not there to protest anything? They could be there for the notoriety and possible stoush, any old agro will do. A lot of them seem to be rinse and repeat. Keeping up numbers by going then coming back to make this apparent non event more newsworthy. Do any more than a genuine nucleus even know what this ‘protest’ is about.

    Maybe we need a day or two of media disinterest to make them go away. No tv cameras, no reporters, just nobody to feed this gathering.

    They want to talk to Jacinda? Our elected Prime Minister. So why have they not elected a couple of leaders? to actually come on their own to sit down and talk.? I’m sure if things were put in place as per genuine protest criteria, you know, respect, manners, willingness to listen instead of just demanding etc. P.M. Jacinda would be up for it. THINK OF THOSE CHILDREN IN THE MUD! Get structured dialogue going.

    • weka 12.1

      Many people drove a long way to be at the protest, I doubt they're just there for no good reason.

      Children in mud, I take it you've never been to a hippy festival.

      • alwyn 12.1.1

        "a hippy festival".

        Ah, such happy memories. I have just enjoyed some nostalgia by googling photo's of Woodstock in 1969. No I wasn't there but how we all wished we had been.

        • weka 12.1.1.1

          I was thinking of much closer to home and in more recent times. Woodstock was a music festival, not really the place for kids. Hippy festivals otoh definitely have kids and sometimes it's muddy.

          • aj 12.1.1.1.1

            But not when it’s 12-14°C with a southerly and rain showers!

            • weka 12.1.1.1.1.1

              I live in Otago, I don't think 14C is that cold. And I didn't see many kids in the pics and vids on Sunday morning after the big storm. I would guess most spent the night elsewhere.

              • Ross

                I was walking between the various protestors’ vehicles this morning and a woman, who I assume was part of the protest said, “Aren’t you cold?” I was wearing just a shirt,,,s colder than normal but not that cold.

          • alwyn 12.1.1.1.2

            You know, when I think about it I never thought of Woodstock being either a Music Festival or a Hippy Festival. I would have thought of it being A Music/Hippy Festival.

            The photos do show kids there though, although perhaps not a very large number.

            • weka 12.1.1.1.2.1

              Different vibe. Music festival like Woodstock expect a lot of drugs and sex. Hippy festivals are more family orientated.

              • Belladonna

                The parallel I'm thinking of (of course not politically) is Greenham Common. Where there were absolutely families, including small children, present – though rarely on the front lines of the actual confrontations.

      • Andrew Miller 12.1.2

        You can doubt it all you like, but there’s pretty strong evidence that a significant number of those who’ve chosen not to head home aren’t there for ‘good reason’.
        If you’re happy for kids to be hanging around in dreadful conditions amongst people with appalling views and to be effectively used as human shields, then good luck to you I guess.
        Nothing says ‘hippy festival’ quite like social media posts about stringing up the PM.

        • weka 12.1.2.1

          get a grip. There was what? one day earl on of kids being inappropriately involved in the protest. Has that happened since? Other than that, what's the actual problem other than hand wringing about 'dreadful conditions'?

          If you're worried about the appalling views, then how how those kids going to manage at home?

          You can doubt it all you like, but there’s pretty strong evidence that a significant number of those who’ve chosen not to head home aren’t there for ‘good reason’.

          You've been around here long enough to know, but a reminder: I really dislike people misrepresenting what I say, or my views. I clearly said that I didn't think people were there for the reasons Ffloyd suggested. If you don't like the reasons people are there, then say so plainly, but don't drag my comments into it.

          • Andrew Miller 12.1.2.1.1

            “get a grip. There was what? one day earl on of kids being inappropriately involved in the protest. Has that happened since? “

            The Police has continued to site the presence of children as a significant issue and it seems patently obvious they would have taken far more steps to end this had it not been for their presence and it seems pretty clear those on site know this.

            My reference to the appalling views was an assumption that hopefully not all the kids present have parents with links to the far right extremists we know are down there.
            As to the problem, well if you can’t see it, I suspect no one is going to convince you otherwise. Let’s just say, if I put my kids through such conditions and it wasn’t in the name of ‘protest’ I expect most people would describe it as child neglect.

            • weka 12.1.2.1.1.1

              The Police has continued to site the presence of children as a significant issue

              Please link.

              and it seems patently obvious they would have taken far more steps to end this had it not been for their presence and it seems pretty clear those on site know this.

              Sure. So the issue is that kids stop police action, not that the kids are at risk.

            • weka 12.1.2.1.1.2

              My reference to the appalling views was an assumption that hopefully not all the kids present have parents with links to the far right extremists we know are down there.

              I think the far bigger problem there is the risk of adults being radicalised. I agree there's an issue for kids being socialised but I don't see it as being any different than any of the other protests.

        • alwyn 12.1.2.2

          Aw, I don't know. Suggesting that people should Get High seems pretty close.

    • Andrew Miller 12.2

      “Maybe we need a day or two of media disinterest to make them go away. No tv cameras, no reporters, just nobody to feed this gathering”

      Nice in theory, but as we don’t have state controlled media even if you got the big players to agree there’s enough ‘alt’ media to keep it fed indefinitely, especially as we’re taking about people whose political engagement is largely on channels well outside the mainstream so it just feeds itself.
      Why haven’t they elected leaders? Because it’s not one group and there’s strong evidence that whatever coherence the original convoy may have had has been hijacked by people with very different agendas. The original organisers have long gone home.

    • Shanreagh 12.3

      I was thinking that stopping the live feeds, that are coming from Parliament Buildings would be one way of not giving 'oxygen'.

      Maybe we need a day or two of media disinterest to make them go away. No tv cameras, no reporters, just nobody to feed this gathering.

  13. observer 13

    Which of these peaceful freedom-lovers should the government negotiate with, so they can discuss their reasonable demands?

    • Andrew Miller 13.1

      Indeed.

      Also, the calls to engage with those not of that ilk before they get radicalised by the far right is all well and good but how is that supposed to happen on Parliament grounds? A pop quiz to check if you just don’t like or mandates or want to see the PM strung up?
      Any engagement with otherwise decent people who just happen to feel strongly about mandates needs to happen in their communities after they’ve buggered off home.

    • Peter 13.2

      Plunket: "That is the Kiwi way. Even if we disagree we look out for each other."

      February 2019: Some wanted nothing special to be done around coronavirus. Borders open, no lockdowns, life to simply carry on as normal. It was just the flu. Interventions from the medical world were to be rubbished as sinister. That was their Kiwi way – just looking after each other, looking after us all.

      The Government disagreed.

  14. Reality 14

    Anti-social, anti-everything, easily influenced, ignorant people wanting to be "famous".
    To take their children into those conditions is reprehensible that in any other circumstance would have them reported for child neglect. If someone let their small child play out on the street for hours in gale force winds and torrential rain the police would be called. They have no regard for other people, just their own misguided crazy theories.

    If some disgruntled person/s went to a local park, destroyed the grass, put up tents, created a huge mess, vandalised fences, parked cars everywhere and prevented other people going there, and waved disgusting and threatening signs, the police would be there quick smart.

    • Well said.

      Remember the family of British (?) tourists a couple of years ago who left a disgusting mess and were abusive to locals.

      They were soon moved on (and deported?).

      Though I hear there's been a opera made of their antics!!!

      Maybe an indigenous Wagner will turn this farce in Wellington into a stage comedy?

  15. lprent 15

    Ummm. Somehow I don't want this influence on our laws.

  16. The Chairman 16

    Deputy Prime Minister Grant Robertson put out a post on his Facebook account yesterday regarding the protest.

    I would like to openly address that.

    Grant said "the protest we have seen at Parliament this week is driven by wild, false, dangerous conspiracy theories and people with an extreme agenda."

    Clearly, if we are to take Grant on his word, Grant (and one would assume the Government itself) have no clue what is driving this protest despite it being publicly repeated many times.

    It is a direct consequence of the actions (namely vaccine mandates) taken by this Government.

    That is what is resolute when it comes to the protesters despite their diversity and overall diverse views.

    Those claiming they (the protesters) have made their point known, thus time they move on, would be surprised to see Grant (and one would assume the Government itself) just don't get it.

    Therefore, how does Grant expect protesters to move on when he has clearly shown he hasn't yet got a clue what is actually driving them? Nor is willing to accept or acknowledge any culpability.

    Personally, when it comes to knowing what is driving the protesters, I don't think Grant or the Government are that dumb.

    I think it is more a case of Grant and the Government being slippery and not wanting to own their shit. Moreover, using the post as another way to smear and paint the protesters in a bad light.

    Which, of course, will do nothing to improve the situation.

    Grant goes on to say high vaccination rates reassured him that the protesters only represent a small minority. Which, in my opinion, is another load of crap. And I'll tell you why.

    Many people were coerced into taking the jab. Hence, not all those that were jabbed actually support it. They did it to keep their jobs. Therefore, Grant's use of high vaccination numbers as a reassurance of a sign of widespread support is totally flawed.

    Grant acknowledged that protest is an important part of democracy. Moreover, the people involved have a right to be there.

    Then Grant quickly changes tune saying: but when they threaten, harass and disrupt, they lose that right. So lets just ponder on this for a moment.

    What about the vast majority that have acted peacefully? Seems he cares not about them, isn't willing to distinguish and is happy to remove their right too.

    By and large, this has been a very peaceful protest. Moreover, despite acknowledging that protest is an important part of democracy and that the people involved have a right to be there, what exactly has the Government done to help facilitate this important part of democracy?

    In other words, what have they done to help minimise the disruption and allow the people their right?

    Has Grant offered to help with parking, which seems to be the main disruption issue?

    The response thus far has seen the protesters trespassed, the sprinklers turned on them and they have been blasted with covid ads and loud crap music. Is this what Grant deems to be helping facilitate an important part of democracy?

    Evidently, their actions speak for themselves. Making a mockery of any genuine claim they see this as an important part of democracy.

    In fact, on Q&A he highlighted that he has urged the police to take action.

    Where is the hard questioning on this by the main stream media? MIA as usual. And they wonder why they are harassed.

    Facebook link https://www.facebook.com/GrantRobertsonLabour

    Q&A link https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/q-and-a/episodes/s2022-e1

    Note: this post was written before the police offered to help out with parking

    • Ad 16.1

      There is no reason to expect a government minister to help protesters.

      Good on him for posting.

      • The Chairman 16.1.1

        As Grant highlighted protest is an important part of democracy. Moreover, the people involved have a right to be there.

        Therefore, of course there is an expectation that this important part of democracy is facilitated by Government.

        Yet, he's urged the police to take action, which is completely opposite of facilitating an important part of democracy.

        • observer 16.1.1.1

          Moreover, the people involved have a right to be there.

          Not correct. For a protest, yes. For an occupation, no.

          So they have been trespassed.

          • The Chairman 16.1.1.1.1

            Moreover, the people involved have a right to be there.

            That is what Grant himself said. See link.

            • observer 16.1.1.1.1.1

              Again, you are misrepresenting (deliberately or not, I don't know).

              The right to protest. Not ignore a trespass order. Where did Grant support that? He didn't.

              Protest, occupy, not the same. How much clearer can it be?

              • The Chairman

                Protest is important in our democracy, but like all freedoms it comes with responsibilities. The protest we have seen at Parliament this week is driven by wild, false, dangerous conspiracy theories and people with an extreme agenda. Even then the people involved have a right to be there

                As you can see, he did say they have a right to be there.

                And I didn’t say he said they had a right to ignore a trespass order

                • observer

                  Your whole argument rests on Grant using the present tense as a general statement, and you dishonestly claiming it means now and indefinitely.

                  Since you've now acknowledged that Grant did NOT say they had a right to ignore a trespass order, that ends the flimsy pretext.

                  They have been trespassed. End.

                  • The Chairman

                    Your whole argument rests on Grant using the present tense as a general statement, and you dishonestly claiming it means now and indefinitely.

                    Present tense is "now".

                    As for Grant holding that belief (protest is an important part of democracy and the people involved have a right to be there) indefinitely, obviously I can't answer that.

                    They have been trespassed. End.

                    You wish.

                    The trespass notice was issued last week, yet they are still there.

                    In fact, I was there the other day and many have a message for Jacinda.

                    They will be there everyday, everyday, everyday for as long as it takes.

          • tsmithfield 16.1.1.1.2

            “Not correct. For a protest, yes. For an occupation, no.”

            Define the difference. Can't they be one in the same?

            • observer 16.1.1.1.2.1

              A protest is usually for a defined time (which is why police and public are generally tolerant, rightly so).

              e.g. Groundswell: drive the tractors into town, dogs bark, speeches, placards, get the headlines on the TV news … job done. One day, and over. Disruption over, other people's freedom returns.

              This is now an occupation which (in their words) will only end when the government does what they demand. So – no defined time. Endless, really.

              The difference is pretty clear.

              • So sort of like the ''Occupy Movement" then.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_movement

                Should they have been trespassed too?

                • mpledger

                  They most likely were. In civic square it turned into a group of homeless people.

                • gsays

                  No links or anything official… In regards trespass, I understand the area around parliament is subject to a TOW claim. The iwi involved has made it clear, in writing, the folk are welcome.

                  • Shanreagh

                    I saw that and thought, there's always a chancer…..Yeah right that holds a lot of legal force ……NOT.

                    The area is currently under the control of the Speaker via the title to the land – prob won't have an actual title but a Gazette.

                    If the Iwi has not put its claim in, has not had its claim considered and has not had the discussions on remedies it is quite a long distance away from having any authority over the property. While the Crown has accepted a claim and continued occupation for some sites I am wondering if the site of NZ's parliament may be a bit different. Perhaps a very symbolic handing over and simultaneous handing back to the Crown would take place. Would the Crown want an outside group saying who could come onto or protest on Parliament grounds? How would that work with the police.

                    The claimant situation in Wellington is quite fractured due to different tribes being in different situations vis a vis their occupations of land around early Wellington at the time of the Treaty in 1840

                    https://www.govt.nz/browse/history-culture-and-heritage/treaty-of-waitangi-claims/settling-historical-treaty-of-waitangi-claims/

    • weka 16.2

      please link to the actual post, not his FB page. Find the post, click on the date stamp, then copy the URL here. Thanks.

    • observer 16.3

      Grant is the MP for Wellington Central. If he's going to generously offer help with parking, he might want to start with his constituents. Not sure that "free parks for anyone breaking the law, but not the rest of you" is a strong campaign slogan.

      • The Chairman 16.3.1

        Grant is the MP for Wellington Central. If he’s going to generously offer help with parking, he might want to start with his constituents.

        According to Grant (on the Q&A link above) he was inundated with calls from his local constituents to sort it. So no doubt many of them would have been happy if he did. Win-win.

    • McFlock 16.4

      When it comes to what's driving the protestors, the question is "which group of protestors?"

      The hippies, the village idiots, the density cult, or the ones who painted the swastika? Or the "ordinary NZers" who don't fall into any of those groups?

      • The Chairman 16.4.1

        The question is "which group of protestors?"

        All of them

        That is what is resolute when it comes to the protesters despite their diversity and overall diverse views.

        • McFlock 16.4.1.1

          That is what is resolute when it comes to the protesters despite their diversity and overall diverse views.

          Great, no specifics then, just a desire to piss off the locals and then somethingsomethingsomething get rid of this government.

      • The Chairman 16.4.2

        The ones who painted the swastika

        Did you see what was actually painted there? It was Hindu not a Nazi swastika

        https://os.me/short-stories/the-meaning-and-significance-of-swastik/

        You can see it on the video on this link. It has dots just as the Hindu one.

        https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/02/anti-mandate-protester-draws-swastika-on-statue-at-parliament-grounds.html

        Therefore, all this talk about Nazis is just total rubbish

        • McFlock 16.4.2.1

          Riiight. Except for the action zelandia posting videos, arps trying to get there, and a variety of other far right fuckwits. Total rubbish. 🙄

          • The Chairman 16.4.2.1.1

            They have no influence or presence there.

            It was all love and peace from what I saw.

            No one is being radicalised.

          • The Chairman 16.4.2.1.2

            Speaking of Nazis

            Did you know Klaus Schwab was born in Nazi Germany. And he wants to utilise the pandemic to build back better.

            Strangely enough, Jacinda also talks about building back better. Along with many other world leaders and elite.

            https://www.bitchute.com/video/ByoitFsTgnVI/

            So who is she working for, us or them?

            • joe90 16.4.2.1.2.1

              Yup, it's a (((globalist))) plot to BBB.

              Idiot.

              • The Chairman

                Yup, it's a (((globalist))) plot.

                Well, it is sure looking that way isn't it?

                By the way, who is she working for again, us or them?

                  • The Chairman

                    It was a simple question, Joe, yet that's all you got? Is that (a sea lion barking) what you call debate?

                    Here's another clue for you.

                    The Forum of Young Global Leaders was founded in 2005 by Klaus Schwab, Founder and Executive Chairman of the World Economic Forum, to create a world where leaders take responsibility for a sustainable future, while meeting increasingly complex and interrelated challenges. Today, there are 1,400 members and alumni from more than 120 countries. Notable members include prime ministers Jacinda Ardern…

                    https://www.weforum.org/press/2021/03/ygl-class-2021/

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      Moreover, using the post as another way to smear and paint the protesters in a bad light. – The Chairman @16

                      Our famously "more left than most" lefty is using The Standard as a platform to smear and paint Ardern and Robinson in a bad light.

                      They will be there everyday, everyday, everyday for as long as it takes. – The Chairman @5:11 pm

                      If they intend to be there for as long as it takes for our government to end vaccine mandates, then they could be there for at least as long as it takes for NZ’s Omicron wave to peak – will the good people of Wellington be so patient when daily new Covid cases top 5000?

                      Speaking of Nazis… Did you know Klaus Schwab was born in Nazi Germany. – The Chairman @16.4.2.1.2

                      Which Nazis is The Chairman speaking of? Schwab was one-year old when WWII started.

                      Today, there are 1,400 members and alumni from more than 120 countries. Notable members include prime ministers Jacinda Ardern…

                      Not strictly accurate – Ardern is a notable alumnus, not a "notable member."

                    • The Chairman

                      Our famously "more left than most" lefty is using The Standard as a platform to smear and paint Ardern and Robinson in a bad light.

                      Interesting concept you are trying to sell us. I merely highlighted Grants own words and actions that failed to align with his so-called support of protest.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 16.5

      "the protest we have seen at Parliament this week is driven by wild, false, dangerous conspiracy theories"

      This right here is the nub of the problem. As evidenced by their signs, comments and numerous "Voices for Freedom" etc posters, many of these protesters believe things that are simply not true. There is not much you can discuss here. The belief that they are "anti mandate" but otherwise reasonable and logical, is nonsense for most of them.

      • Quite right! How could you possibly reason with s woman (recorded on TV1) who shouted that she was going to divorce her husband because he'd gone out and got his booster?

        For reasonable dialogue to take place, there has to be a smidgen of sense on at least one side – and there doesn't appear to be much among the clownvoy.

  17. aj 17

  18. McFlock 18

    Pretty good comments on why this "protest" has an issue, even if they're not all nazis or nutbars.

    • weka 18.1

      So legitimate protest should always be shut down if some Nazis turn up?

      • McFlock 18.1.1

        If the protestors don't tell the nazis to piss off or otherwise actively and visibly distance themselves from that crowd, they're people happy to protest alongside nazis.

        Whether that means they should be automatically shut down? Nah. A protest isn't a pub. But it is a problem for the protest. And when the nazis finally go over the top, they damage the protest they injected themselves into.

        • weka 18.1.1.1

          Definitely agree it's a problem for the protest, and the issue of radicalisation is recruitment is real.

          I don't have a sense still of how much influence the Nazis etc are having on the ground. I haven't seen the placards or grafiti in the vids I've been watching. I can see if it's sparse that many people would just ignore it. Some of that is political naivety, some of it is being apolitical and not understanding the issues or danger. And sure, there will be some there that are comfortable with it.

        • Puckish Rogue 18.1.1.2

          Greg Gutfield (having a field day with the Freedom Convoy) has coined a term (well maybe he didn't but its the first I've heard of it) he calls 'bad appling'

          Using the Freedom Convoy in Canada as an example someone in the crowd has a Nazi flag, the media focus entirely on this one flag and label the entire protest/march/whatever as being all Nazis and thus they can all be labelled as whatever and therefore any treatment meted out to them by the state is ok because they're 'nazis'

          So the question is how many are there and are they part of the protest or a false flag operation (government or individuals)

          • McFlock 18.1.1.2.1

            Easy response by the protestors: tear down the flag.

            Even dolt45's crew knew that one.

            If the nazis or "false flag" operatives are a minority in your protest, the solution is the same: remove their banners and tell them to piss off.

            • Puckish Rogue 18.1.1.2.1.1

              Sure but the damage is already done isn't it.

              Are the flag/flags still there, would it even matter, would it stop the media and politicians, breathlessly, referencing nazis and whatnot

              Hell Ardern even says: 'the protest at Parliament looks like “an imported protest”, that is based on disinformation, and she questions the motivation of the people involved.'

              So basically not a 'real' protest

              Arderns handling of this has not been her finest hour.

              “I really question the motivation of what I see down there.”

              They've gone through Celine Dion, sprinklers and a cyclone so questioning their motivation is a complete dead end

              "What we have seen out there seems much more anti-vaccination than anything else."

              Has she or any of her ministers gone out to talk to them? N

              • McFlock

                You can have the media reporting nazi flags were amongst the protestors, or reporting nazi flags were torn down by the protestors.

                The protestors make the choice.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  Are there any nazi flags being flown at the moment, when were they pulled down, did the media report it

                  • McFlock

                    They did report one person eventually scrubbing the swastika off the plinth or wherever it was. So there might be one "not a nazi" there – possibly the origial "leaders" who have apparently distanced themselves from the current gathering.

                    Because there are other jerks there, and multiple death threat/comments about executions.

                • weka

                  yeah, nah, if I was there I'm not sure I'd want to face down Nazis. Probably another way to make it clear though.

                  • McFlock

                    True that – but if there are 500 people there, all it takes is one or two to start making the stand.

                    edit: also, for every person who acts, there are more who will applaud that act and validate it, rather than frowning upon it. That counts, too. The tip of the spear does the work, but the shaft of the spear is needed, too.

        • tsmithfield 18.1.1.3

          McFlock, as I pointed out below, this is a problem with lots of protests.

          Take a look at the photo part way down that George Floyd protest article I linked to.

          The protestors in that photo look to be protesting very peacefully, and I suspect would be very ashamed of the individuals committing violence and attacking businesses later on. They would probably see that sort of action as counter-productive to their cause.

          So, what to do? Should they have told them to "piss off".

          • McFlock 18.1.1.3.1

            Dude, they aren't even at the same protest. As you say, they are peaceful.

            Now, do you think it would harm their protest if there were a couple of nazi-adjacent flags and banners in their peaceful protest? Same protest, same photo, just bung a swastika or something in there?

            And nobody is ripping it down, telling them to leave, or distancing themselves?

            Here's another option.

      • francesca 18.1.2

        If it was me, I would not want to be associated with Nazis and I'd probably leave.

        Have organisers of the "legitimate" protests issued disclaimers and disavowed the more extreme rhetoric?

        I do think the mandates , in hindsight could have been handled better, with real efforts to keep people in employment, and I know of many who have been advised by their GPs not to have a second shot after serious reactions.Despite the best efforts of GPs they have been denied exemptions, and the govt has stubbornly stuck with the "only about 100 people shouldn't have the vax" That's unforgivable

        A recent US study , as reported in Israeli media points to much higher risk of myocarditis after vaccination than previously thought

        https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/321238

        John Campbell goes through the paper.

        • Nic the NZer 18.1.2.1

          Bit of a sub-par discussion by John to my mind. The rate of myocarditis is a concern and if its substantially a matter of injection protocol then it should clearly be addressed, however there are some significant limitations to the study and the discussion doesn't seem very helpful about that.

          So,

          * A lot of time is spent discussing protocols for diagnosing myocarditis. But these are fixed if you want to compare the rate calculated here to a base rate for the population, you can't change the diagnosis standard when making that comparison.

          * A significant time is spent talking about diagnosis of myocarditis via autopsy being part of the protocol. But of course if somebody has died due to myocarditis the last thing you want to do is not diagnose it that way and as severe. So why is there a point about some diagnosis being primarily done post mortem?

          * A significant time is spent discussing that VAERS reports are difficult to complete, correctly. But clearly this doesn't prevent anybody from completing them, what is the point here? If there is a point here it should probably be that many more VAERS reports are presently being received from less well qualified people.

          * For some reason John calculates a rate of only 84x, compared to the study headline figure of 133x rate increase. What is not made clear is why his much lower, but the reason is because the 133x figure is the worst case estimate taking the upper CI figures and dividing by the lowest possible population rate. This context would make it clear that the worst case figures are being reported for this study in headlines.

          * John claims its not clear if the rate is for an age cohort or overall at some moment. But its completely clear that the figures are calculated per age cohort in the tables. The 84x figure he calculates comes from the cohort of 16-17 year old males. This makes it clear that the figures being widely reported are focused on the worst case age & sex cohort for this study.

          * There is no mention of the issue that covid-19 status is not known for any of these reports. This makes it impossible to work out if an elevated risk of myocarditis due to covid-19 is impacting the figures in some way. The base rate is calculated between 2017-2019 so would not include this elevated risk rate.

      • tsmithfield 18.1.3

        Weka, I appreciate your logical and fair analysis of this situation, even though we are from different sides of the political fence.

        As I am trying to show below, any example of why this protest is "bad" can be countered by numerous of similar examples of protests that many here would likely see as “good”.

        Some seem to be tying themselves in logical knots they don’t like.

    • If you are going to say that, then a lot of protests should be questioned. For instance, the George Floyd protests:

      https://www.nytimes.com/article/george-floyd-protests-timeline.html

      ”In cities across the United States, tens of thousands of people have swarmed the streets to express their outrage and sorrow during the day. That has descended into nights of unrest, with reports of shootings, looting and vandalism in some cities.”

      • McFlock 18.2.1

        Nazis protested police brutality against people of colour?

        • tsmithfield 18.2.1.1

          Just because the George Floyd protest got infiltrated by people who enjoy violence and destruction in no way undermined the legitimate cause of the majority.

          I don't see the difference.

          • McFlock 18.2.1.1.1

            Yeah, I know you don't.

            Also, learn to distinguish between any unprovoked violence that protestors distanced themselves from, and the violence instigated by the police.

            • tsmithfield 18.2.1.1.1.1

              You mean, similar to the violence exerted by our police against this protest?

              • McFlock

                Fuck no. That's mild.

                I'm talking about blinding journalists and shit like that. Not reasonable force used to effect an arrest.

                • So, we are talking about a matter of degree rather than principle? Because the response to the police violence you refer to was also at a much higher level than what we have seen in Wellington.

                  • And what about the psychological warfare from Mallard with the water cannons sprinklers and Barry Manilow music. Surely that justified a violent response smiley.

                    I guess the protesters should be thankful that Mallard didn't take up James Blunt's offer:

                    https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/music/127759304/gimme-a-shout-if-this-doesnt-work-james-blunt-overlooked-in-favour-of-recorder-music

                  • McFlock

                    Fucksake, it's like trying to explain the meaning of "love" to a robot.

                    Making a legitimate arrest with reasonable (even minimum bordering on gentle) force is not "violence instigated by the police". It's cops doing their job.

                    A NZ example of violence instigated by police would be a sit-in outside the front door of a building, so cops bring riot gear in through the back door, then burst out the front hitting the seated nonviolent protestors with metal batons. 1993.

                    Do you compute the difference, HAL?

                    • I do understand the difference. But again, you are talking in degree rather than in principle.

                      As mentioned to Weka below, I couldn't find the video of several incidents from the police that looked really nasty that were well publicised a few days ago.

                      I think it also depends your standpoint. Looking objectively from here, we may not see it as that bad. But, if either of us were in a protest and felt like we were behaving ourselves and had that sort of stuff meted out to us by the police we may well see it quite differently.

                      Besides, they are no longer using the "arrest'' tactic, which could be because they just used as a tactic at the time hoping it would disperse the crowd, rather than being something they thought was truly justified.

                    • McFlock

                      I do understand the difference. But again, you are talking in degree rather than in principle.

                      again, no. Your second sentence indicates that the first is incorrect.

                      There is a "reasonableness" qualification around the application of force. It is a question of degree, circumstance, colour of right, genuinely held belief, and purpose.

                      Using a level of force that is legal to achieve the legal purpose that you have a sincere belief is required in the context of the situation is "reasonable".

                      Targeting reporters with less-lethal munitions or hitting nonviolent protestors with steel batons is unreasonable force, excessive to legal entitlement in the circumstances at the time.

                      Besides, they are no longer using the "arrest'' tactic, which could be because they just used as a tactic at the time hoping it would disperse the crowd, rather than being something they thought was truly justified.

                      Given the attempted breaching of police lines in the first day or so and the police powers relating to enforcing trespass orders and the threat of riot should instigators not be quickly apprehended, maybe their tactics altered in accordance with the situation – which further suggests that in this protest the cops are attempting to limit their use of force to only the most necessary instances.

                      Does that compute?

              • weka

                You mean, similar to the violence exerted by our police against this protest?

                What violence? The guy being carried by his feet and arms behind his back looks wrong to me (that's got to hurt), but other than that I'm seeing people resisting arrest, including some solid blokes who are using force. What do you think the police should be doing, asking nicely?

                If the arrest needs to happen, then it needs to happen, and there are things that need to be done by police and lines not to step over. Protestors know this. NZ Police don't always get it right, and there are plenty of examples where they don't, this isn't one of them from what I'm seeing in that video.

                Arresting someone resisting arrest by definition requires force. If the arrests don't need to happen, make that case.

                • Yeah, I agree that was probably quite mild.

                  I couldn't find the videos of the naked chick being pulled along by her hair and a few of the other videos that were around a few days ago that looked a lot more nasty.

                  But the police have laid off the arresting tactic now anyway. Perhaps they realised those tactics weren’t productive or justified, and so stopped doing it.

                  • weka

                    more likely they realised that after the first 120 arrests they weren't able to keep that up. And more people were arriving. It really is quite a successful protest.

                  • Blazer

                    'I couldn't find the videos of the naked chick'

                    I bet you tried hard!laugh

        • tsmithfield 18.2.1.2

          Would you attend a protest where a number of the participants were wearing Che teeshirts?

          I realise he was considered a hero in some respects. But he was also a nasty piece of work:

          http://www.collegiatetimes.com/opinion/column-che-guevara-exposing-myths-about-a-murderer/article_7392ebfe-329b-5736-881e-d37e10ce733f.ht

          "Fidel Castro recognized this ruthlessness about Guevara, and placed him in charge of La Cabana prison in Cuba, where he was judge, jury and executioner. Although exact numbers are impossible to find given their haphazard application, Guevara is estimated to have sentenced over 500 people to execution at La Cabana prison without proper trials….Moments later, guards dragged the boy out of the cell, and Che Guevara himself ordered the boy to kneel down.

          The jailed men screamed "assassins!" and watched out of their cell window as Guevara took out his pistol, put the barrel to the back of the boy's neck, and fired."

          Not quite the same level as the Nazis, but in principle, not that different either.

          • McFlock 18.2.1.2.1

            Indeed, not quite the same as nazis. Or anywhere close.

            Yes, sometimes left wing protests have far left folks. Even actual communists. And I'm sure that alienates people like you from the protestors.

            But nazis should alienate everyone, no? A protest with people wearing tshirts depicting hitler wouldn't be the sort of one you'd associate with much more than a picture of che, surely?

            edit: in specific answer to the question, I have attended protests with people wearing che tshirts. Posers, mostly, but hey, might as well protest with them before they became bankers and Herald business columnists and that sort of thing, lol. At least they were vaguely left wing back in the day.

      • Puckish Rogue 18.2.2

        Thats ok because it was the right kind of protest

    • Ross 18.3

      If there are Nazis at the protest, they’d have to be well into their 90s and older. I don’t think they would pose any threat. 🙂

      • McFlock 18.3.1

        Dude, I'm not going to debate the semantic precision of how to describe someone whose philosophical and graphic design paradigms have deep roots from right wing totalitarian political groups in early 20th century Europe. They walk, quack, and look like ducks, so I call 'em ducks.

        • My compliments, McFlock, for your patient explanations in the face of wilful ignorance.

          When people disappear down rabbit holes, it's bloody hard to get them out again!

          • McFlock 18.3.1.1.1

            I knew a farmer who would just stick gelignite down the rabbit hole and be done with it. Would have completely fucked up the narrative of the book, though. 🙂

            • joe90 18.3.1.1.1.1

              First few days on a new job out in the sticks we'd work out where the entrances/exits of warrens were. Then fill in all but two, position the hīnaki at one and light a smokey fire at the other. Lunch.

            • Blazer 18.3.1.1.1.2

              Mr MacGregor was violent bastard then…surely a ferret would have done the…job.

      • weka 18.3.2

        Call them neo-Nazis then.

  19. Reality 19

    The Chairman – you make the ludicrous comment that Grant Robertson could have helped the protesters park their vehicles! That must be one of the silliest things said in the last week. The protesters have behaved obnoxiously in many ways, but Grant should nevertheless have popped on his plastic poncho, borrowed a hi-vis vest, and helpfully stood on Molesworth Street with a stop/go sign sending the traffic to just where exactly? Given the difficulty Wellingtonians have finding a park in normal circumstances, perhaps the protesters could have hired a bus and shown their concern for climate change and air pollution.

    • The Chairman 19.1

      He could have offered them a place to park as the police have just done of late.

      Especially, if we are to take him on his word ie that he believes protest is an important part of democracy. Moreover, the people involved have a right to be there.

      • observer 19.1.1

        As pointed out at 16.3, the idea that an MP should offer a place to park is absurd.

        If you can't understand how the voters would react to their MP doing that …

  20. Jimmy 20

    Had to have a laugh at this. They have signed Trevor Mallard up to Pornhub! Along with Act and National party.

    Would be funny if it came back "That user name is already in use".

    Shane Jones would be jealous.

    Covid 19 convoy Parliament protest: Police diverge from Speaker over Celine Dion strategy, will negotiate with occupiers – NZ Herald

  21. gsays 21

    In regards the Covid response laws:

    Below is a breakdown sent to me by a freind,

    The Covid 19 Public Health Response (Vaccinations) Order 2021 comes into effect on April 1st 2022.

    This legislation will allow for:

    1. The lockdown of unvaccinated or insufficiently vaccinated individuals.

    2. The ability to restrict travel within the country to unvaccinated or insufficiently vaccinated (e.g. a person who does not want to get a booster shot).

    3. Withhold certification from those who do not get required boosters or subsequent combinations of vaccines as may be ordered at any time.

    4. The ability to dictate the type and form of certification required for proof of vaccination status — digital or otherwise.

    5. The ability to dictate what other information may be required for the renewal of vaccine certificates, and which information may be contained on such a certificate.

    6. The period for which a vaccine certificate is valid can be changed at any time, and who it is that may be entitled or eligible to have these certificates.

    7. The specification of mandates for entire job sectors.

    8. The ordering of certain jobs to require regular mandatory testing and medical examination.

    9. Enforcement officers to be able to demand certification, pretty much at any time.

    10. The appointment of enforcement officers that can be anybody they wish to appoint, and not necessarily police.

    11. Enforcement officers to inspect and take copies of certification to be verified at a later date, before immediately returning such documentation.

    12. The provision of an assessment tool for employers to use to determine who should be vaccine mandated, however employers can totally disregard the assessment tool and mandate at whim.

    13. Legal or other representatives of employees may be refused entry to workplaces.

    14. Contact tracing information may be used against a person in order to enforce the Act.

    15. Employees who have been dismissed for non-compliance of testing or vaccination, but comply at the last minute, may still be dismissed if the employer deems revoking the dismissal to be disruptive of their business.

    COVID-19 Public Health Response (Vaccinations) Amendment Order 2022

    Points 1, 3, 9, 10, 12, 13 are particularly chilling. This is where the overreach can be illustrated. We were led to believe the mandates were to push up vaccination rates…

    https://legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2021/0094/latest/LMS487853.html

    https://legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2022/0004/latest/LMS629661.html

    • McFlock 21.1

      Ever hear of Typhoid Mary?

      Most conventional governments don't fuck around when it comes to infectious disease control.

    • Blazer 21.2

      What time does the next train to …Wellington leave?

    • Shanreagh 21.3

      I think your 'friend/fiend' is spoofing you…have you looked at the date…..1/4/22 April Fools day.

      Meanwhile back in the real world

      Here is an explainer about the moving to phase two of the Omicron response.

      'Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern says New Zealand is likely to move into the next phase of the Government's Omicron response in the next few days.

      Speaking with AM on Monday, Ardern said the country will move to Phase 2 when the country sees around 1000 cases a day. That's likely to be soon given New Zealand recorded a record 810 cases on Sunday.

      "Today we will be discussing as a Cabinet and with our public health officials the movement to phase 2. You will remember the time frames we put around that were cases so we said roughly in the order of when we hit 1000 [cases]. So now is the time to be having this discussion."

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/02/explainer-what-will-change-when-nz-moves-to-phase-2-of-government-s-omicron-plan.html

    • Craig H 21.4

      Arguably most of that was in place already by using the Health Act 1956 and the Health Act 1920 before that. Not sure where 1 April comes from, those measures are either in place directly or in reserve, or could be put in place tomorrow if the orders were drafted and signed.

  22. Puckish Rogue 22

    Its funny but the left wing parties normally love, support and encourage protest.

    Normally.

    But when the workers protest in a way the leaders don't like well thats a different story, the peasants need to learn their place and listen to the leaders who will tell them what to protest.

    The temerity of the workers decision to decide to protest, to organise themselves, to be successful is something the ruling elites cannot allow to stand

    The very idea of the working class thinking for themselves, making changes, understanding the strength they possess, doesn't bare thinking about

    They must be crushed, in fact crushed so badly that the peons never dare think about getting ideas above their station.

    • The irony is delicious, isn't it?

      • Tricledrown 22.1.1

        Irony that covid has affected/ infected the poor at a much greater rate than the well off.

        Health restrictions are unique and trying to compare these times with normal times is ironic.

        Death threats from protestors.associating and supporting those.ironic

        Matt King a former National MP. Speaking and supporting all the conspiracy nutjobs. Ironic.

      • Gypsy 22.1.2

        "But when the workers protest in a way the leaders don't like well thats a different story, "
        It's not so much in the 'way' they are protesting, but that anyone would have the temerity to question their carefully crafted PR masquerading as actual policy.

    • observer 22.2

      Nice fantasy. You must have had a bulk order of straw to make all those men.

      250,000 peasants have been boosted since this "convoy" arrived in Wellington. Strong, free, organised peasants. Crush that.

    • weka 22.3

      Good to see you changing sides Pucky.

      (and I don't disagree that the whole liberal twiteratti/beltway response has both missed the point and cemented in their reputation as classist).

      • Puckish Rogue 22.3.1

        I am a fully paid up union member after all.

        I see whats happening in Canada and it seems to me this is usually what the left says it wants, a worker uprising/protest/throwing off the shackles type thing

        The elite lefts response:

        "Everything is on the table"

        • weka 22.3.1.1

          I can't believe I just had to explain to a rightie why police need to use force to arrest people who are resisting but the arrests in the video from this week aren't particularly violent (even by NZ standards).

          World is stood on its head mate.

          • Puckish Rogue 22.3.1.1.1

            'World is stood on its head mate.'

            It is, it really is.

            I cannot make heads or tails of whats happening at this current point in time.

            Politics, business, pop culture, gender, entertainment, you name it and nothing makes sense.

            I'm not even 50, I didn't think this would happen until my 60s at least.

            • Anker 22.3.1.1.1.1
              • 100% agree PR.
              • I am fully supportive of vaccinations and all that. But the world is stood on its head.
              • the vitriol towards these protesters from the left is almost deliciously ironic. Almost like a your allowed to protest as long as it’s our point of view…..think of the children….idiots etc etc.
              • I did an on line poll and found only slightly more people are against the protest the for.
              • I can no longer see any Nazi flags (I never did spot one, but read they were there). But Maori sovereignty flag and Rainbow flag (those good old right wing symbols) flying high. I heard the protesters talking, calling for peaceful protest and discipline. They have people cooking for them, hiring hotel rooms so they can shower, I watch a video clip and saw full black rubbish bags and no rubbish on site.
              • hell one of the protesters even called out “play the shark song again”.
                if they cooperate and move their cars, then I think public opinion will swing further in behind them.

              I don’t know what to think anymore as I am adamantly supportive of vaccines.

              the govt and Mallard appear to have treated these people with contempt. It will backfire

              • Puckish Rogue

                Yeah exactly.

                One Nazi flag shown and it must be because the protestors are Nazis or maybe the protestors are using Nazi insignia because they believe this government is acting like the Nazi party

                Doesn't matter now, the narrative is Nazis are running around the protest therefore we don't have to listen to the protestors

                All the government had to do was ask the protestors to send out some representatives to talk to an MP or someone (to be seen to be listening to the protestors) then ignore them and let them run out of steam but no big, bad Mallard had to act like the tough guy because he thought it would play well to the media

                • Nic the NZer

                  If only the government had somebody as good as you at controlling the media narrative they could totally avoid criticism.

                  What's your judgement of the protest tactic of threatening the mainstream media reporters?

                  Is that making them more or less prone to being labelled dangerous Nazis, or that was all only Trevor's idea?

                  My own judgement of that was that its a way for counter-spin to have some control of the narrative, but at times they seemed to be calling for an invasion of parliament (supposedly ironically) so I am not convinced its a good way to paint the protest as mostly peaceful.

                  • weka

                    looks like two protests to me (also ironically).

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    They don't need me, they have big, bad Trev the bovver boy.

                    Why doesn't he go out to deal with the protestors personally.

                    • Nic the NZer

                      "they have big, bad Trev the bovver boy.

                      Why doesn't he go out to deal with the protestors personally."

                      If Trev could live up to that persona then he would be out there (or arrested in Picton along with the White supremacist). But my questions were about how the protest group is advertising itself. You would expect the protestors to appreciate the Walt Kowalski impression anyway. Maybe it was a bit abstract for their tastes and they would have better understood a monolog delivered to an empty chair.

                • weka

                  there were death threats made from the protestors. That racist fuckwit in Chch has just been released on from jail for abusing Muslims and has been arrested again at Picton, after making death threats,

                  A white supremacist jailed for sharing footage of the Christchurch terror attack has been arrested in Picton, hours after allegedly declaring he was off to a “public execution”.

                  Christchurch man Philip Neville Arps, 47, was travelling up the country when he was arrested in Picton on Friday afternoon and charged with threatening to kill and using offensive language.

                  A charge sheet said Arps was at a BP petrol station in Linwood, Christchurch earlier that day, saying there was going to be a “public execution”. “I’ve been promising it, I’ll see you in seven to 10 years,” he was quoted as saying on the charge sheet.

                  https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/127766088/white-supremacist-philip-arps-arrested-after-alleged-public-execution-comment

                  No way should any MP be going out to meet those protestors.

                  One Nazi flag shown and it must be because the protestors are Nazis or maybe the protestors are using Nazi insignia because they believe this government is acting like the Nazi party

                  Don't know how many there were (there was graffiti as well), but we know that there's been a big push online from the white supremacy groups, and that Counterspin is a major player. Nazis with their sticky little fingers all over it. Which is an issue the protestors still need to resolve at some point if they want legitimacy.

                  Both my and micky’s posts yesterday (linked in this post) covered this.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Sure they can.

                    They expect police to deal with all sorts of scum.

                    They expect Corrections to deal with all sorts of scum.

                    They send soldiers off to war zones.

                    They can go out, under heavy police protection, and speak to some protestors, away from the protest in a protected area.

                    They just don't want to because then they'll have to admit they played this very badly, from the start

                    • weka

                      Nope. If the protest can get some people together who aren't doing death threats, but you cannot engage over democracy while that shit is going on. It won't hurt the protestors to sort that stuff out, it would actually help them a lot, and it's legitimate for the government to set boundaries as it is for the protestors to be there.

                      I also think Labour are playing this badly (mostly Mallard), but par for the course. At least Ardern is a bit more subtle than Haters and Wreckers.

                • McFlock

                  One Nazi flag shown and it must be because the protestors are Nazis or maybe the protestors are using Nazi insignia because they believe this government is acting like the Nazi party

                  One nazi flag, the zealandia ~adjacents participating, one A*p speaking another A*p arrested on his way there, John Ansell being totally sane…

                  Maybe it's the nazi types and related fuckwits supporting and participating in the protests who give the impression that there's a bit more to this crowd than a fear of "man dates" (a banner in Dunedin had lousy kerning).

                  • weka

                    apparently there's still a noose in the tree too. Bryce Edwards is getting shit on twitter for videoing the peace and love wall without the noose.

        • weka 22.3.1.2

          I see whats happening in Canada and it seems to me this is usually what the left says it wants, a worker uprising/protest/throwing off the shackles type thing

          Probably worth pointing out at this stage that we don't really know what the left is currently. Liberals on the left vote for governments that retain the status quo and don't support liberation of class or revolution.

          Reminds me of Brexit.

          Whereas I’m like, send the aunties down there to connect with the women on site and build some bridges and solidarity, because this shit isn’t going away, and it will survive the mandates and the pandemic.

    • fender 22.4

      This is about health, not class.

      Don't you get your cues from J Collins rather than Matt King(clod)?

      • Puckish Rogue 22.4.1

        Its always been about class.

      • weka 22.4.2

        how is it not also about class when poor people will be disproportionately affected by the mandates and Labour doesn't give a shit?

        • fender 22.4.2.1

          "Labour doesn't give a shit"

          Might need a citation for that one.

          The measures put in place are to protect EVERYONE.

          • weka 22.4.2.1.1

            if Labour cared evenly they'd have put decent benefits in place for people losing their jobs from the mandates and/or helped them find other work/careers, and they wouldn't have used two NZ rhetoric.

            Labour's care was uneven before the pandemic, not sure why it would change now. Having good public health response is a different thing. The issue is who you are wiling to throw under the bus while you do it.

            • McFlock 22.4.2.1.1.1

              I suspect for a start that it would defeat the object of the mandates.

            • fender 22.4.2.1.1.2

              If people decide they don't want to take safety precautions required for their job then they can find one that suits them better. Rather than being thrown under the bus these people have decided to disembark the bus themselves.

              Yes benefits are inadequate, as the Welfare Expert Advisory Group report concluded, but making the required changes just to satisfy anti-vaxxers would be wrong IMO.

              • weka

                If people decide they don't want to take safety precautions required for their job then they can find one that suits them better.

                yes, they can, assuming there is a job to be had. But this is not a leftist position, that people losing their jobs is their own fault or up to them to sort out. It's a neoliberal position.

                Yes benefits are inadequate, as the Welfare Expert Advisory Group report concluded, but making the required changes just to satisfy anti-vaxxers would be wrong IMO.

                I'm not suggesting that. I'm pointing out the convergence of Labour's lack of caring about beneficiaries and their lack of care about workers losing their job.

                • fender

                  People have to deal with their circumstances themselves once they've made important decisions that affect their earning ability. A "leftist position" shouldn't mean mollycoddle people who make foolish decisions about their employment after going down anti-vax rabbit holes.

                  • weka

                    that right there is exactly what the right says about unemployed people. If you start picking and choosing who deserves support around work, then you cannot complain when the right do as well. And they will be in power again.

                    • fender

                      Losing your job is one matter, throwing your job away is an entirely different circumstance isn't it?

                    • weka

                      Nope. Punitive welfare is based upon saying that people have no right to make decisions about their own wellbeing, hence very long standdowns for people that leave a job and need to go on the dole. That's not leftist, nor liberal. It's punitive and neoliberal.

                    • KJT

                      Noting that all the "working class at my workplace, bar one voted for a vaccine mandate at work. The company put it to a vote, even though the assessment tool practically required it.

                      A reluctance of our essential workers, who are also exposed to border workers to be the one to take Covid home to their family.

          • Puckish Rogue 22.4.2.1.2

            Really?

            Who, predominantly, got to stay home and work and who had to go out and face the public to work

            https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/01-05-2020/the-side-eye-essential

    • gsays 22.5

      I had a wee chuckle in the weekend.

      Your observation is true and on the other hand…

      I had my father-in-law and family around for his birthday lunch. A normally strident anti- Jacinda/Labour chap. My Mum, ("Labour are for the worker"), was opining about (metaphorically) shooting the protestors. To watch him go to start a reply and stop, his face contorting with frustration was joyful to behold.

      Schadenfreude for desseert for me

    • Andrew Miller 22.6

      Congratulations on whatever research you’ve carried out establishing those occupying Parliament as ‘the workers’.

      Thanks for the post as your clearly position isn’t projection and wish fulfilment at all, it’s a slam dunk shaming anyone on the left who’s not come out in solidarity.
      Let all forget about the conspiracy theories, the threats, the irrational anti science positions, the significant presence of far right agitators. It’s clear to me now none of that matters as these people are THE WORKERS.

      That’s us all told, thanks for clearing it up.

  23. Reality 23

    The Chairman – you maintain the protesters have a right to protest. Fair enough, that is true. I have been on a protest but the large crowd present did not damage property, wave disgusting banners, threaten and abuse people. create a huge mess that others, not them, will have the responsibility and cost to deal with. It seems these protesters want their so-called rights in the midst of a worldwide pandemic, but do not want any responsibilities to fellow citizens.

  24. Adrian 24

    It would appear to me that a large portion of the crowd probably are aware that they have made a few silly mistakes that has got them into this position but are too proud to admit it even to themselves. There seems from the few photos I’ve seen some behaviours that look like quite deep mental problems.

  25. Reality 25

    Comment being made about 'classist' people as opposed to working people. In my view there is nothing wrong, whatever one's background, with having manners, consideration for others, just being a decent law-abiding citizen. Behaving like a rabble is ok is it if someone is a 'working' person and they should be excused from any behavioural expectations.

    Imagine a classroom of children behaving the way these protesters have, thinking they can misbehave because that's their right – a nightmare for the teacher.

    • weka 25.1

      Behaving like a rabble is ok is it if someone is a 'working' person and they should be excused from any behavioural expectations.

      I didn't see anyone say that. Did you?

      Imagine a classroom of children behaving the way these protesters have, thinking they can misbehave because that's their right – a nightmare for the teacher.

      Which protestors and which behaviours specifically?

  26. roy cartland 26

    Gordon Campbell's take is really worth the read if anyone hasn't already.

    The takeaway for me was this super-spreader bit:

    The longer the occupation lasts, the bigger the online audience for Counterspin and other reactionary outlets. In that sense, the encampment poses not only a risk of being a super-spreader event for the Omicron virus. It is also functioning as a super-spreader event that is amplifying the lies and mis-information rife on some social media outlets.

    • From your link:

      Well, if you choose to pitch camp with extremists, don’t be surprised if people judge you accordingly. At the same time… Sure, many of the people in the encampment can be seen to be the victims of Covid mis-information. Apparently, this has led them into making self-destructive choices whose outcomes they now seem happy to blame on anyone but themselves.

  27. Corey Humm 27

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/127760434/parliament-protest-sprinklers-blasting-music-not-a-tactic-we-would-endorse-police-say

    Police and crisis negotiaters saying Trevor's child actions are inflaming the situation and could lead to a riot.

    If people wanted these protests to die out they should have ignored them and let them fight amongst each other instead of giving them a common enemy and proved all their thoughts right.

    Trevor's childish, spiteful actions and posting with glee on Twitter what song he should play next is outrageous and one of the many,many, many reasons he shouldn't be speaker. I hope he's gone before the end of this term. An angry right wing neoliberal list mp thirty years past his used by date.

    Honestly, I pray that we don't forcibly remove them (which much of the upper middle class work from home left is demanding) because there are children there, these are mostly misinformed working class people and honestly everyone has experience with a crazy son or daughter mother or sister or brother or friend they truly care about whose gone down that rabbit hole and to see violence used against a peaceful protest (with outliers) could see kiwi's see their misinformed loved ones in these people and see the protesters get way more sympathetic.

    Please for the love of chocolate, ignore them and let them burn out, give them parking ticket amnesty and allow them to burn out on their own Accord.

    • weka 27.1

      Honestly, I pray that we don't forcibly remove them (which much of the upper middle class work from home left is demanding) because there are children there, these are mostly misinformed working class people and honestly everyone has experience with a crazy son or daughter mother or sister or brother or friend they truly care about whose gone down that rabbit hole and to see violence used against a peaceful protest (with outliers) could see kiwi's see their misinformed loved ones in these people and see the protesters get way more sympathetic.

      This is where I am at too, although if people do get more sympathetic, I don't think this is inherently a problem. I don't think they will go away even when the protest ends. We still need a way of integrating people into society.

      Agree about Mallard. The sprinklers and music was bad enough, the tweets show seriously bad judgement about the situation and about his role. He's basically Labour's 'fuck up' spokesperson atm. May as well start calling people deplorables and be done with it.

  28. Jenny how to get there 28

    Lance Burdette a former police negociator told Mike Hoskibs, the protesters are not being heard or listened to by government.

    Rescind the trespass order, ask to meet representatives of the protesters to meet representatives of the government. Let them air their grievances.

    The guiding principal; 'give a little, get a little. In exchange for assurances of non-violence and clearing their illegally parked vehicles, and assurances of safe passage for journalists agree to leave their protest village alone.

    Seems fair.

    And in line with the Prime Minister's call to "Be kind" New Zealand.

    • Shanreagh 28.1

      We do not know if the demands are being looked at by Govt. It is more likely that they are. So quite incorrect to say they are not being listened to by Govt. This is not a lone gunman locked up in a house in Waikickamoocow.

      With the work being done on the approach to Omicron Covid (981 new cases today) I would venture to suggest that this, covering as it does, the whole of NZ, may be of greater importance at the moment, ie like today than dealing with the protestors.

      The Police are asking for cars etc to be moved after 6.30pm. I favour this approach.

      But both you and he are incorrect to say protestors are not being listened to. The demands will be minutely analysed. You can bet that a whole of Govt approach, involving many departments is being taken and a multitude of approaches and legalities are being looked at, as they will have been the whole time of the occupation. Govt Ministers and their Depts are not actually sitting round twiddling their thumbs.

      What is the need for safe passage for journos……we have actually seen lots of coverage from on the ground and have read some very good discussion pieces/opinions by some very good journos.

  29. Re Trevor, what ever we think of what he did the point is it is done. We cannot undo it.

    We go forward from today or whenever.

    We know the Police have said it was tactics they would not have used. That is a good opinion. I am sure that Mallard also thought his idea might work.

    The Police have said that parking will be available at the stadium from 6.30pm. Hopefully there is a plan for if the cars are not moved. that is quickly put into place..

    I favour this then turning off all live feeds filmed from Parliament buildings.

    "Wellington District Commander Superintendent Corrie Parnell said the disruptions are causing "stress and concern" for locals.

    "The disruption to residents, schools and places of work, is creating real stress and concern, and people are feeling unsafe.

    "Overnight some protesters did move vehicles that were obstructing the roads which is greatly appreciated by police and the public."

    Parnell said Sky Stadium has agreed to allow protesters to park in their facility tonight from 6:30pm.

    "Throughout the day, police will be providing the owners of the cars, vans, utes, campervans and trucks currently blocking roads with information that will explain how and when they can relocate their vehicles to Sky Stadium.

    "We would like to thank Sky Stadium for providing a solution that we believe will work for protesters and allow our Wellington community the ability to move freely through their city again."

    Parnell said until tonight police are asking protesters to relocate their cars to legitimate parks as soon as possible.

    Police said they will continue to be highly visible at Parliament.

    "We have been supported this morning by Māori Wardens who have been centred around Wellington Railway Station.

    "We continue to appeal to protesters to leave the demonstration and to take their children – it has been wet and cold overnight, and we now have concerns about the health risks posed and sanitation issues."

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/02/covid-19-latest-on-parliament-protest-covid-19-community-outbreak-monday-february-14.html

    .

    • Puckish Rogue 29.1

      'Re Trevor, what ever we think of what he did the point is it is done. We cannot undo it.'

      'We go forward from today or whenever.'

      No, absolutely not. We do not 'flush the dunny and move on'

      Mallard overstepped his boundries big time, he joked about it online and obviously didn't ask for or listen to advice and he has made matters worse

      He did it to throw his weight around and act the big man for tv and, hopefully, questions will be asked about his conduct

      • Shanreagh 29.1.1

        Sure but it is not part of and should not be part of what we are dealing with now….I am sure there will be a review of this when it is all over and messages/actions that did not positively add to the situation will be examined.

    • Patricia Bremner 29.2

      yessmiley

  30. Reality 30

    Well Weka – I took it from your comment earlier that it you consider it is classist to comment on the behaviour of the protesters. I am not concerned if the protesters are so called middle class, so called working class, or whatever label used. It is solely their behaviour that is appalling.

    As for hypothetically behaving like that in a classroom – to wave insulting banners, threaten classmates for wearing a mask, give abusive threats, have little personal hygiene (as in having a shower), I could go on – those behaviours in a classroom would mean hell for the other children and the teacher and would be totally unacceptable. So those behaviours, which have been well documented, are what upsets and angers most law abiding citizens getting on with their lives, knowing if they were to indulge themselves that way, the police would be on their doorstep.

    I am also interested why you as a Green supporter and other Green supporters are strangely quiet about the use of all the gas guzzling polluting vehicles used to get to Wellington. Why not hire a bus? I hope no Green Wellington councillors (who have been very silent) start lecturing us in the near future if we use a car to get out and about, or that we should ride a bike or walk.

    • weka 30.1

      Well Weka – I took it from your comment earlier that it you consider it is classist to comment on the behaviour of the protesters.

      Don't know which comment you are meaning but you are wrong.

      As for hypothetically behaving like that in a classroom – to wave insulting banners, threaten classmates for wearing a mask, give abusive threats, have little personal hygiene (as in having a shower),

      Agreed about the threats and abuse. Also the death threats and nooses.

      I am also interested why you as a Green supporter and other Green supporters are strangely quiet about the use of all the gas guzzling polluting vehicles used to get to Wellington. Why not hire a bus? I hope no Green Wellington councillors (who have been very silent) start lecturing us in the near future if we use a car to get out and about, or that we should ride a bike or walk.

      Do you not then support transition to a zero carbon economy because of climate change?

  31. I don't know why the hospo businesses that have been affected aren't a bit more entrepreneurial and set up some stalls and start selling the protesters food and coffee.

    • Shanreagh 31.1

      One did and has already been moved on…….a Donut stand and I think I read that WCC were moving on it for operating without a health licence for the area ie parking on a road. The employees of the Donut stand were masked and giving away free donuts and still got a bit of stick for being masked and being sheeple.

      The food vendors who usually operate legally at the Thorndon market in the area near the Cathedral were not able to operate on Saturday as the market had to be closed because of the protest – the authorities said they may have been affected by the weather and numbers would have been down in any case.

      I actually favour entrepreneurs who have put their dosh upfront to get permits and operate safely rather than those capitalising on what is a sad situation.

  32. But, now though, surely with no markets operating, businesses should be able to make some coin off the protesters?

    Even if they ran a collect only service they would be able to operate from their businesses. All they would need to do would be go and hand some leaflets out around the crowd to let them know where they could go to get food.

    • Shanreagh 32.1

      Supermarkets are operating. To go to a supermarket you need to be masked. For some reason masking as a positive health measure for yourself and others whether vaxxed or not is being spurned by the protestors. So supermarkets are turning them away.

      If you operated a system as a good employer you would insist that your employees be masked if they did take food orders there. Would you also be happy for your employee to be harassed, spat on crowded etc while delivering food while masked. Because that it what is happening to masked passersby.

      A group of us usually go out to a restaurant on Monday night. Not tonight as the restaurant is very close to where a number of protestor/supporters are parking their camper vans/cars, near Courtenay Place. We're not going. Who wants to share streets with unmasked people? Who wants to see the silly confrontations about getting into places unmasked and unvaxxed. Not us.

      The protestors are being fed, they have warm dry clothes per some op shops.

      If they wore a mask they could buy as much food as they wanted at nearby supermarkets.

      General question why are these protestors not masking? Do they ever mask? Is there something about masking ie because it is a health measure they don't want to do it? I know I find it incomprehensible

      I know that I had I decided not to have the vaccine I would still mask etc. I would not want to get it and I would not want another person to get it from me.

      Surely it is not because they don't believe Covid exists? Does anyone know?

      • solkta 32.1.1

        The only conclusion i can come to is that it is a covid denial protest wrapped in mandate dressing.

        • Shanreagh 32.1.1.1

          Yes I am coming to that conclusion too…..covid deniers and that makes me so sad.

        • UncookedSelachimorpha 32.1.1.2

          100%.

          All those "Voices for Freedom" posters at the protest? Look at their website (I recommend you don't) and you will see a bunch of crazy anti-mask stuff too.

  33. roy cartland 33

    Here is that strange green/red/black/white flag I saw – anyone know what it is? (Sorry haven't learnt to embed yet.)

    https://pasteboard.co/NFtUubndh3Ol.png

  34. observer 34

    For anyone still claiming this is about the vaccine, and the freedom to refuse it.

    Over 35 people from the protest appeared in court today. All but 2 refused to wear a mask.

    Not something put into your body. Something put over your face, for a short time, to limit the spread of the virus and protect other people. This tiny contribution to public safety, requiring no sacrifice at all, and no expense – and they refused.

    That is what they really are.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/127765039/protesters-wait-on-street-for-court-cases-because-they-wont-wear-masks-to-appear

    • Shanreagh 34.1

      Yes I wonder at this. Does anyone know the rationale for not wearing masks.

      Is it because of 'Da Man' wanting it?

      Incidentally I was pleased that the PM & I (natch!!) both have the same idea about the tone deafness of protestors wanting to remove health protections while we are slap bang on the upward curve of Omicron.

      Do they not read? Why would they think that a rational person would support their demands when we are still surging and when we have moved up a step in the approach to the pandemic.

      • weka 34.1.1

        there are a big chunk of people who simply don't believe that covid is that bad. Hence ignoring omicron, and they see masks as an infringement on their freedom. They're calling it a freedom movement for a reason. The people I know are basically liberal libertarians. They have grave concerns about the government (not Labour, any government) and the laws being passed to get more control over the population. You've probably seen Bill arguing this here (the fast track to digital control).

        Here's the thing to understand about that. They're not completely wrong. This is why people who are otherwise sensible, can believe the conspiracy version of this. We are in danger of fascism or authoritarianism and high tech is part of that. Think police trialling face recognition software, or Bill English about to roll back privacy rights before they lost the last election.

        And, the left has dropped this ball. We've largely sided with Labour are Good, and haven't really been able to look at the issues in a both/and way.

        That the beliefs don't often make sense doesn't mean their gut instincts are wrong. There's also a hefty does of US imported paranoia about government, and the background stress of the pandemic (whichever side you are on) and climate/eco crises. We joke about the Zombie apocalypse, but many people in society can see things unravelling and it's scarey. People will hang their own belief structure on that to cope.

        • weka 34.1.1.1

          here's another thing to understand. National have been using Dirty Politics and then more lately Trumpian politics to sow dissent. We're really fortunate that we've had four years of Labour and that has slowed down, but the crossover between what I just described and the actual fascists (see Arp just tried to cross the Straight with murder on his mind) is massively concerning.

          Some are arguing that the protest should not be legitimised. I still don't know what happens to all the people there who aren't intent on murdering MPs or furthering racist aims. Because they believe very strongly in what they do and they're not going away.

  35. Blade 35

    Some questions I have been thinking about:

    1- Will the protest just fizzle out for no particular reason?

    2-Will removal of protesters be similar to Bastion Point, except more violent?

    3-Will some police officers refuse to participate in any forced removal of protesters?

    4- Will Trevor Mallard suddenly join Phil Goff in retirement?

    4-Could a political party leader break ranks and form some type of dialogue with protesters?

    5- If protesters are removed from parliament grounds, could they go on a rampage around surrounding streets?

    6-Where's the Maori Party in all of this. Why are they silent. What's up?

    7-Could an early election be on the cards with continued protests and falling economic indicators?

    8-Will a review find political interference regarding how police managed the protesters?

    9-Does continued protests start causing internal friction within our political parties?

    10-Did the Maori caucus have input into how Labour is, and will, handle the protesters?

    11-What is it going to cost taxpayers to clean up after protesters. Will the grounds around parliament be reconfigured to stop large scale protests in future?

    12- What happens down the line if vaccine side affects become apparent? Does it bear thinking about?

    13-Does a new political movement form out of these protests?

    14- Should we join protesters around the camp fire and sing Kumbaya?

    • McFlock 35.1

      some likely answers:

      1. nobody knows
      2. nobody knows
      3. probably not
      4. well, speakers generally retire rather than becoming PM, I seem to recall. So he'll end it at some time.
      5. Forcibly removed? Probably.
      6. Because any action is a vote loser.
      7. Probably not, but never say never.
      8. Probably not. Labour seem to be smarter than tories. Whether that means they don't do it or just don't get caught because they say the quiet bits out loud, who knows
      9. Only if the protestors genuinely start representing a significant proportion of the population – the longer it goes on, the more it will be committed nutbars at the fore. They're the ones with endurance.
      10. dunno, don't particularly care
      11. lots, but I hope not "reconfigured"
      12. Of course it does. But at the moment side effects are significantly lower in number and severity than the side effects of covid, and in the long term a stealth side effect that stays hidden for months… years now only to suddenly bloom into a significant risk… that's highly unlikely and rare.
      13. nah. Too fragmented. Only common factor is "Jacinda is mean".
      14. Only if you want covid, dysentery, and apparently pink eye.
      • Blade 35.1.1

        Amazing…enlightened

        Answers 101.

        • Craig H 35.1.1.1

          You have 2 question 4s – my thoughts on the other Q4 is probably not unless a party outside Parliament saw an opportunity e.g. NZ First and Winston Peters.

      • weka 35.1.2
        • nah. Too fragmented. Only common factor is "Jacinda is mean".

        The ones I know are hard out on the government overreach taking away our freedoms thing. Really has nothing to do with Ardern.

        • McFlock 35.1.2.1

          Does for John Ansell – was he the one holding the sign comparing Ardern to the chch fuckwit?

          But fair call, maybe government overreach is the common factor. But then who knows.

          Point being, there are lots of strange bedfellows wallowing in that sty.

          • weka 35.1.2.1.1

            Oh I definitely agree there are people there driven by their hate of Ardern. I'm sure there's a fair amount of misogyny in that faction. Mostly I think there are disparate and competing values and ideas and I don't get the sense we're at the bottom of that. Very strange bedfellows.

            • weka 35.1.2.1.1.1

              Reading Lew, Keith Ng etc twitter this afternoon, theme of don't give them legitimacy even if it's only part of the protest. Which I guess marries with what you have been saying re the other protestors need to front up and deal with it onsite.

              My problem is what happens to the hippy crowd when the go home if all they've got is CounterSpin to rely on?

              • weka

                it is of course possible that it's already too late.

              • felix

                Why would you think that's all they've got to rely on though? There's this weird narrative around all this that suggests that people are so unsophisticated they'll just uncritically swallow any information that's put in front of them, not people on twitter of course, just the plebs. I've never actually met anyone like that, not even people who get all their info from the evening news are that uncritical, and certainly not anyone motivated enough to go to parliament to express their views.

                • weka

                  because those are my people (the hippy crowd) and I've had too many conversations in the past 2 years that tell me their ability to thinking critically is impaired. People who believe that many people will die from the vaccines this year. Or that not that many people have died from covid.

                  During the Trump years I knew people who though Trump wasn't so bad, but in addition they also believed that Clinton and Obama were part of a paedophile ring. I've had those conversations with people for a long time and some of them at least simply do not understand what evidence is, nor how to challenge their own belief systems. They are very invested in what they believe, it's actually hard to even have the conversations now because of the emotion attached.

                  As I've just said below, I don't think they are completely wrong, I think their gut instincts are often right. But I do want to know how they reconcile their freedom movement with Power, Alp, Arp etc. I would expect if I asked that from some I would just get a lot of denial (based on me being duped by the MSM).

              • McFlock

                I think the least-bad outcome is they remember it for getting a mild case of the shits or some other discomfort, leaving the occupation as it fades away to a few diehards who are arrested with little problem because the cops outnumber them (definitely no batons or shields or pepper spray), and it has zero effect.

                Some have found kindred spirits and will go further down the hole, but a fair few will turn up, spend an unpleasant time alongside dickheads, and achieve nothing.

                Certainly worked for me on the mj decriminalisation protests years ago. Sure, I reckon that our entire drug approach needs to be thrown out and replaced with a public health approach (legal possession for personal use, restriction of lower impact drugs, targeting of dealers not users, testing of illegal substances and quality standards for the stuff legal for sale, etc). But the damned hippies in the protests. I know lawyers and other professionals who smoke, but who jumped on the mic every time? Stoned and literally unwashed hippies talking bollocks. Sigh. Didn't want to be within a hundred yards of 'em. So didn't.

    • weka 35.2

      8-Will a review find political interference regarding how police managed the protesters?

      what kind of interference and why?

      • Blade 35.2.1

        What kind of interference and why?

        You may remember the police commander apologising (?) quick smart when police turned up with batons.

        He said something along the lines of ''it's not how we do things.''

        I guessing Cuddles Costa may have had a word with the commander. We don't want to inflame the situation was probably his line.

        Cuddles himself was probably having to brief Poto at regular intervals. And of course, the SIS, would be on alert.

        Given the high percentage of Maori in the protest, relative to their general population demographic, and after the Tuhoe raids, the police and government will want to be very careful. And that probably goes against how the police should be acting. Including measures to protect themselves from protesters.

        Just listening to Barry Soper. A RATS demo picked up a parliamentary journalist who possibly has Covid.

        • And down the rabbit hole we go!

          • Blade 35.2.1.1.1

            There's no rabbit hole. Either something like that happened, or it didn't.

            There's nothing in what I have written that is way out of left field.

            If there is, please point it out.

            Stop being intellectually lazy and try this time honoured brain exercise – put yourself into the shoes of the government and police.

    • Peter 35.3
      1. There's a chap in Florida who's out of full-time work with experience at building barricades. It could be done on the cheap because he'd promise the protestors would pay for it.

      12. I haven't heard complaints from any of the 5.81million who've died internationally from Covid. I don't think they'll be moaning about side effects of the vaccines.

      13. Any political movements formed out of these protests will only be from those who weren't killed by Covid.

      • Blade 35.3.1

        ''12. I haven't heard complaints from any of the 5.81million who've died internationally from Covid. I don't think they'll be moaning about side effects of the vaccines.''

        I think you a skipping over the import of side effects happening at a later date – eg fertility problems. Babies with immune issues etc.

        Confidence in the government and medical authorities would collapse overnight.

        It doesn't bear thinking about given the present political climate in my opinion.

        • McFlock 35.3.1.1

          The vaccine has been around for a year. Got any sniffs about congenital defects or fertility problems?
          I mean, Rihanna's cousin's friend's testicles swelled up like balloons, apparently, but has it happened to anyone else? Poor bastard walks everywhere with a wheelbarrow now.

          • Blade 35.3.1.1.1

            McFlock, you should be Defrocked.

            ''The vaccine has been around for a year.''

            Yeah, a year…and don't forget the boosters for years to come (?)

            • McFlock 35.3.1.1.1.1

              So the first two or three shots have no discernible effect, but suddenly the 4th shot of the same thing has an effect?

              Literally millions of people have had it. Effects on fertility, even pregnant women and foetus should be providing some initial reports, surely? No youtube videos from not-a-medical-doctors, even?

              • Blade

                ''So the first two or three shots have no discernible effect, but suddenly the 4th shot of the same thing has an effect?''

                I have researched Covid way before most people on this blog even considered it.

                I have keep out of deep debates on Covid because it's a waste of time.

                • McFlock

                  I have researched Covid way before most people on this blog even considered it.

                  let me guess, you've researched it for the last ten years?

                • observer

                  The first posts on Covid-19 were in Feb 2020 (though there may well have been discussion under other posts, like Open Mike).

                  It would be good to know when Blade was "researching" Covid, and where he shared the results of his "research".

        • Peter 35.3.1.2

          You say there's no rabbit hole and there's nothing you have written which is way out of left field.

          Then you mention side effects happening at a later date – "eg fertility problems. Babies with immune issues etc."

          Why not come up with more possible side effects? I mean anything is possible isn't it? Let's make up a list of dire possible consequences and in very short order we'll have them on placards at protests:

          "Booster shots cause hearing problems in teenagers," "Vaccinations will cause leukaemia outbreak in 15 years."

          Rabbit hole? Hell I might change my name to Warren.

          • Blade 35.3.1.2.1

            ''Then you mention side effects happening at a later date – "eg fertility problems. Babies with immune issues etc.''

            Why not come up with more possible side effects? I mean anything is possible isn't it? Let's make up a list of dire possible consequences and in very short order we'll have them on placards at protests.''

            Calm down and think it through.

            Yes, anything is possible. But some things are more likely *IF* side effects show up.

            Now, I believe the full safety data for our Covid vaccine won't be in till the end of 2022 -23. I can't remember which.

            That's why it pays to be prudent,( for me at least). I could say a lot more, but as I said before I don't want to get into a deep debate.

            Check this warren out , Peter.

            ''Valdecoxib (Bextra)

            Time on the market: 2001-2005

            Valdecoxib is an NSAID that the FDA later determined worked no better than other NSAID pain medications on the market. The drug was recalled for adverse heart effects including death, heart attack, and stroke, as well as increased risk for serious skin reactions, such as epidermal necrolysis, erythema multiforme, and Stevens-Johnson syndrome. To boot, the drug had the potential to cause gastrointestinal bleeding. Yikes''

            Four years on the market. It would have had to pass preliminary testing. And it took four years to be withdrawn even with those side effects.

            I applaud your flippant attitude.

            https://www.mdlinx.com/article/10-dangerous-drugs-recalled-by-the-fda/lfc-4008

  36. Nic the NZer 36

    Posted in wrong place.

    • swordfish 36.1

      .

      This is the most sensible comment so far … has an existentialist Waiting for Godot vibe about it.

      • fender 36.1.1

        Can't you fit "Woke" somewhere into that sentence wink

        • Muttonbird 36.1.1.1

          Must have used his quota for the day.

        • swordfish 36.1.1.2

          Made strenuous efforts to work it in … but, in the specific context of my little bit of whimsical fluff above, it just couldn't be justified either artistically or philosophically.

          Seriously, though, a very handy short-hand term for the elitist ID Politics / Critical Theory Cult & the accompanying dogma that is currently capturing the MSM / Establishment.

          • fender 36.1.1.2.1

            Yes I can see you've really embraced it, and I'm reluctant to disparage the comments of someone I've always thought made excellent contributions. But it's been so thrashed I'd begun to think your handle had been hijacked by Martyn Drabury wink

  37. observer 37

    So, about those calls on here for multi-party "engaging" … let's hear from the Leader of the Opposition to see how he feels about that:

    "It is a group that has arrived and been incredibly abusive and anti-social. … It is pretty tough when you see school children getting harassed because they are wearing a mask to school in that area, it is pretty tough when you can't get an emergency service down a street because it is completely blocked, or people can't catch a bus to get to and fro from work.

    Those are things that I don't think have set them off well and it is very difficult to engage when you don't have leaders and you have a diverse group like that … The abusive, anti-social nature of [the protests], you know, it makes it very difficult for any of us as parliamentarians to engage with them."

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/02/christopher-luxon-says-trevor-mallard-s-sprinkler-music-tactics-were-unhelpful-protest-should-be-left-to-police.html

  38. McFlock 38

    Aerial photograph of the verry yuuuge crowd on parliament's lawn.

    Maybe spread out well beyond the frame, but still…

  39. This guy is a source of good info, wit and good vibes. He is able to distill down to twitter size all that has been happening at the occupation.

    • observer 39.1

      He is very good, simply by reporting (and showing) what the protesters are saying. Literally, their own words.

      Anyone who tries to downplay the presence of the alt-right should follow his updates … which of course is the very reason they don't. If you've created a fiction for your own comfort, you don't want to be confronted with the evidence.

      It's not about a few hangers-on. Not when the crowd applauds.

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 39.2

      Yep. Peace and Love they aint. And totally agree the Mandate is just a pretence. That Kelvyn Alp and associates could be quite dangerous..

  40. Belladonna 40

    Well, Winston thinks there are votes in it.

    [OK, my sarcastic interpretation of his public statement – because he doesn't get out of bed unless there's something in it for him]

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/127767092/winston-peters-joins-former-mps-backing-antimandate-message

    ” Peters said any “insinuations” that he was trying to capitalise on a moment for political gain were “not going to land”. He supported the protesters insofar as they protested lawfully.

    “I’m not trying to legitimise anything, I’m just trying to legitimise a thing called freedom and honesty,” Peters said.”

    Typical Winston trying to have his cake and eat it, too.

  41. observer 41

    Somebody upthread suggested these nice reasonable people would respond to a nice reasonable offer of parking, so they would move their vehicles and people in Wellington could get their own freedom back.

    Well, guess what. They've been offered the parking (at the stadium). Free, no hassles. Allowed to come and go.

    And they're not moving. Gosh, it's such a shock to learn they couldn't be bothered to help out other people – not the government, not the authorities, just ordinary innocent local people.

    How long are you going to keep pretending that they give a fuck about anybody else?

    • weka 41.1

      Have you considered that tactically it's not a good move for them to move their vehicles? Moving the vehicles would make it much easier for the police to constrain the protest or eventually arrest them.

      I also note that the police wanted them each to fill out a form with their plate number on it. Who will want to do that in the middle of a protest?

      Characterising this as simply laziness or selfishness doesn't help when there are more complex dynamics at play.

      • observer 41.1.1

        Please don't patronise me with "have you considered …?". You think this is some new experience, as if the history of conflict had never happened? Of course I've considered, this is not some brand new 2022 invention called a protest, and I've lived through plenty myself.

        I'm well aware that their decisions are tactical. But that's the whole point. That's WHY the offer doesn't work. There is no point saying "let's engage in good faith and they will respond in good faith".

        Successful negotiations require a shared goal, a shared perspective. Two countries doing a trade deal. Two political parties doing a coalition deal. A buyer and seller in a business deal. They have a common interest in wanting to make it work. So the participants' tactical considerations are based on that.

        Protest negotiations usually involve an achievable goal based on a shared reality. Saying "let's offer parking as a step towards resolution", as some have done, totally misses the point. The purpose of the protesters is not to reach an agreed resolution, based on reality. It is to stay in the fantasy.

        Without that, what do they have?

        • weka 41.1.1.1

          Ok, I'll be blunt then. Instead of the political analysis you just gave, in your first comment you pointed a finger and said 'lazy, selfish arseholes'. The difference is obvious.

          Re negotiating, it's presumes they see the car parking as useful to their aims or whether the downsides outweigh the benefits.

          I'm sure for some it's fantasy. Lumping them all in together like that strikes me as the same kind of marginalisation as your first comment.

      • Psycho Milt 41.1.2

        What would be the issue with putting their plate number on the form? The cops know from the plate who the vehicle belongs to anyway, so at best it's a "Why do you need me to enter info you already have?" issue.

    • Psycho Milt 41.2

      As per weka, they'd significantly disadvantage their protest by moving the vehicles, so of course they're not going to do that. The vehicles basically have to be towed, and should have been overnight on day one.

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