Daily review 09/07/2020

55 comments on “Daily review 09/07/2020 ”

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1. ScottGN 1

   9 July 2020 at 5:44 pm

   Sarah Dowie obviously thinks everyone has forgotten the sordid events that have lead to her own untimely demise as an MP at the forthcoming election. I should be astonished at the hypocrisy but it is the National Party I guess.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122069465/hamish-walker-makes-right-decision-to-leave-politics-southland-leaders
   • Robert Guyton 1.1

     9 July 2020 at 5:47 pm

     National Party supporters forgive their MPs everything and their MPs forgive themselves the same.
     • OnceWasTim 1.1.1

       9 July 2020 at 6:47 pm

       "National Party supporters forgive their MPs everything………." and they seem to like their corruption cloak and dagger covert style. I guess it makes them feel suphusticated and intelligent.

       At the moment – I'm busy pivoting – teetering on the fulcrum in that space going forward.

       I'm still not sure whether I'd rather rather just openly flick a couple of hundred rupees or yuan to a lowly paid rock hopper and get things done immediately, or mortgage the house to covertly get some gNat to lean on someone, to get someone appointed so that I could buy some long term favours – plus of course pay for their face-lifts, teeth whitening and plasticine.

       Tough decision! What would you recomment
     • Grafton Gully 1.1.2

       9 July 2020 at 8:03 pm

       Could be all those Christians, like Todd.

       “There is a large bloc in National of Christians with some pretty extreme views. They’re not traditional Christian National Party folk, but more fire and brimstone. Muller is a traditional National Party Christian, he voted No on the abortion bill’s second and third reading, he voted No on all three readings of the euthanasia bill. But he is considered not right wing enough by the large Christian bloc.”

       https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2020/07/02/why-todd-muller-and-national-are-toast/

       "forgiveness" is a a big part of it.

       https://www.compassionuk.org/blogs/bible-verses-on-forgiveness/
       • greywarshark 1.1.2.1

         9 July 2020 at 9:31 pm

         How does forgiveness in this political context work? Are people supposed not to make any unkind judgments on a party that says it is in Jesu's pocket and keep voting for them no matter what. There would be no untidy abuse cases in Court from victims of lack of respect for other humans persons and rights, as forgiveness would apply. Is that why Hopeful Christian could go to jail and back to the farm to be forgiven and Carry On Culting. This is a case of National getting above itself – they have got neolib the money cult as their economics, busy cult-like making judgments of people based on the propensities of the leaders, and now they have gone from 'Power tends to corrupt to Absolute Power tends to Corrupt Absolutely'.

         They have taken people's earnings from them, lowered them, have opened stores selling booze all hours so people can drink themselves to delerium, they don't have the ability to put down roots in a house they can afford to live in, if beneficiaries take in boarders or rent part of their house to people in need of accommodation they are condemned as twisted criminals rorting the benefit system. and now the Gnats and the moneyed want what's left of their souls, promising them security and heaven if they do what they are told.
2. ScottGN 2

   9 July 2020 at 5:46 pm

   This is good.

   https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/zealand-media-endangered-public-health-200707103532946.html
   • Ed 2.1

     9 July 2020 at 6:19 pm

     Mosa posted this yesterday afternoon and it was a subject for conversation in Open Mike today.

     I agree. Excellent article.

     You''ll never read that quality of thinking in New Zealand's neoliberal media.
3. joe90 3

   9 July 2020 at 5:59 pm

   https://twitter.com/timmaughan/status/1280985739233198082
   • I Feel Love 3.1

     9 July 2020 at 6:03 pm

     Ain't that the truth Joe90! & in other news, the KPop Agents are celebrating BTS Army Day! Big Time Socialists! (My kids are fans & I've got the walls singing with South Korean Pop Music).
   • Muttonbird 3.2

     9 July 2020 at 6:04 pm

     The letter is an exercise in futility. How can you tell a movement of people to not do something you don't like.

     It's as if JK Rowling thinks she can write peoples lives the way she wrote Harry Potter.
     • I Feel Love 3.2.1

       9 July 2020 at 6:29 pm

       A couple of people have taken their name off the letter, they didn't know who else signed.

       "Cancel Culture" is just a new buzz word, a new vague enemy, it reminds me of "being PC", a catchall phrase that can mean anything and everything to anyone. It suits the privileged that's for certain. "Don't rock the boat!".
       • Muttonbird 3.2.1.1

         9 July 2020 at 6:34 pm

         Cancel Culture is free market through and through. If your message isn't good enough, get ready to feel the heat.
       • Rosemary McDonald 3.2.1.2

         9 July 2020 at 8:20 pm

         A couple of people have taken their name off the letter, they didn't know who else signed.

         So. They signed the letter because they agreed with the statement, but unsigned because they did not wish to be seen as being in association with individuals they usually disagree with who had also signed.

         Hmm… did they actually read the letter before they signed?
   • weka 3.3

     9 July 2020 at 7:00 pm

     I'd be interested to see a decent analysis of the signatories, rather than more superficial, reactionary backlash. Salman Rushdie knows a few things about cancel culture for instance. I'm not sure if people are kneejerk reacting to the letter or there is some substance to the criticism.

     I'm also curious where the limit is, or if people believe there isn't one, in terms of cancel culture. To me it looks like there is also a dynamic of neoliberalism starting to appropriate, and we already know that neoliberalism will stretch to allow some justice issues to gain traction, but will never willingly let the system be changed.
     • Rosemary McDonald 3.3.1

       9 July 2020 at 7:23 pm

       ….rather than more superficial, reactionary backlash.

       But, but, that would require the backlashers to actually read (at least superficially) some of the writings of those who signed the letter.

       And, perhaps, risk being the target of derision and criticism and dare to discuss some of the more sensitive topics.

       But not here. Certainly not a safe space.
       • weka 3.3.1.1

         9 July 2020 at 7:45 pm

         The funny (haha) thing is that both Atwood and Rowling signed the letter, and they take directly oppositional positions on the trans/GCF debate. Atwood spent a few days this week criticising Rowling on twitter for her position. Both those women know the value of words and how to use them with meaning and power. I can't see how Rowling's words can be suppressed without also eventually suppressing Atwood's. It's not like liberals get to control the world, and it's especially scary at this time of rising fascism.

         The shutting down of debate worries me, but also the now gaping chasm that exists among progressives over this to the extent we often can't even talk about it rationally. Everyday I'm watching people at war on twitter, arguing against a position that they either patently don't understand or they are deliberately misconstruing. It's gotten worse this year to the point that I don't often see good faith discussion.
         • Incognito 3.3.1.1.1

           9 July 2020 at 10:23 pm

           I think one problem with debating complex, sensitive, and/or controversial issues is not that people are not able to do so, intellectually, if you like, but that many don’t have the undivided time and energy to put the considerable mental effort into it that it demands. They say democracy requires eternal vigilance and look at what’s happening with civil and political engagement and discourse across the world. People’s attention span is shortening and demands on their cognitive power are increasing. Something has to give.
     • I Feel Love 3.3.2

       9 July 2020 at 7:26 pm

       Fair comment, and a lot of this new change is shallow, here in Dunedin they're changing the name of the Cook purely for commercial reasons.

       What I would personally prefer, re the statues, is more statues, less dead soldiers, more interesting people. Riff Raff in Hamilton, Robert Burns here, so there's more representation, that's what I think most of this is about, more varied. Drs, social workers, artists, community workers, working stiffs ffs!
       • weka 3.3.2.1

         9 July 2020 at 7:34 pm

         I hadn't picked the letter as being about statues (will reread it with that in mind). I took it as about the numbers of academics and writers, people that we need in society to explore a wide range of views, being ostracised, no platformed or fired.

         What are the commercial reasons for changing the name of the Cook?
         • I Feel Love 3.3.2.1.1

           9 July 2020 at 8:23 pm

           Commercial, as in being afraid of not having customers because of the name, as opposed to actually being opposed to Cook themselves. I went to a bar on Sat night, a bunch of pop iconic type images on the wall, the blue boy, Monroe, and Cook, we were quite amused to see it in this present time. Funny, a friend of mine says he will refuse to go to the Cook if it does change it’s name.

           I mentioned statues just as an example of "Cancel Culture". Off topic in regards to the letter. I find it funny a bunch of people want to cancel "Cancel Culture", & also the notion that celebrities opinions hold more weight than say, mine, or yours, or anyones. I love the Potter books, but I really couldn't care less about what she says, most people are quite disappointing, the old "never meet your idols" phrase springs to mind.
         • McFlock 3.3.2.1.2

           9 July 2020 at 8:26 pm

           Mostly that it's two or three very different tenants with their own branding rather than just being one venue, if I recall the ODT correctly.
     • joe90 3.3.3

       9 July 2020 at 7:46 pm

       Cancel culture isn't a real thing. Despite the token lefties, this fucking letter is just fake outrage designed to work the sympathy nerve to get them off the hook of their own making. DARVO, by another name.

       And I know there’s a strain of intolerance on the far left, but it’s nothing compared to the daily deluge of bigoted, intolerant bullshit from the right.

       A life-long repug on the toxicity of today's right.

       https://twitter.com/radiofreetom/status/1279536145903345665

       https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1279536145903345665.html
       • weka 3.3.3.1

         9 July 2020 at 7:57 pm

         that comes across as more talking points Joe. I know how you feel about the letter, but that doesn't address the points I raised other than you just reject them.

         Maybe I'm missing something here, is there some context about who wrote the letter and why that I'm not getting. It's quite a reach to say that someone like Atwood is engaged in DARVO. Are you saying there is no limit when it comes to writer, academics and people who hold positions of power but who also hold important aspects of the culture? That they don't get to have a say in how society treats them?

         If you've seen a breakdown of the list that demonstrates that many or most of the signatories are engaged in political DARVO, then please post it. I just took the letter for what it said.
         • joe90 3.3.3.1.1

           9 July 2020 at 8:57 pm

           IMO you can't have room for experimentation, risk taking, and even mistakes without consequences. If that's what you want, find yourself a foam pit.

           But if your experimentation, risk taking, and even mistakes are offensive to enough people and you're given the arse, tough.
           • weka 3.3.3.1.1.1

             9 July 2020 at 9:29 pm

             Does that apply in Trump's America then? If there are enough people offended by feminists pushing for better abortion rights, those feminists can be fired and deplatformed?
             • joe90 …

               9 July 2020 at 10:18 pm

               And TS would give McCoskrie's ilk a platform in the same way that cathnewsnz would, too?

               /
     • McFlock 3.3.4

       9 July 2020 at 8:57 pm

       I'm also curious where the limit is, or if people believe there isn't one, in terms of cancel culture.

       The limit is crowdsourced. This doesn't mean that there is no limit – I believe it's largely been met already on most issues.

       I also believe that it's also not so much "cancel culture" as "chose your market" culture. Louis CK can still do gigs, he just gets a different audience.

       The main concern I have with the vague banalities in the letter is that all ideas should be open to good faith debate. I'm sure there are some fine humanitarians and noble souls in the signatory list, but I suspect there will also be one or two "~-adjacents", as in "Nazi-adjacent" or "white supremacy -adjacent". Debating some issues simply lends legitimacy to absurd extremists who'd have been fringe self-publishers thirty years ago. But the letter doesn't acknowledge that position, it lets ~-adjacents hide in the coattails of noble souls unfairly targeted by an impulsive mob.

       People tried good faith debate with the o. g. Nazis. That ended badly.And yeah, I genuinely think that historical lesson is relevant in today's world.
       • weka 3.3.4.1

         9 July 2020 at 9:33 pm

         "The limit is crowdsourced. This doesn't mean that there is no limit – I believe it's largely been met already on most issues."

         Can you please explain that? I don't know what it means.

         I also believe that it's also not so much "cancel culture" as "chose your market" culture. Louis CK can still do gigs, he just gets a different audience.

         Feminists subjected to rape threats and doxxing, can still write online, they just have to find a different space to do it in other than social media or their work places.

         I'd be really interested if someone has analysed the list for a nazi adjacent and progressive spectrum. I'm surprised that hasn't happened, although I haven't gone looking either (no, not up for watching youtubes).
         • weka 3.3.4.1.1

           9 July 2020 at 9:34 pm

           also feminists subjected to rape threats and doxxing, just need to man up apparently.
           • McFlock 3.3.4.1.1.1

             9 July 2020 at 11:05 pm

             So now we have the discussion about what people mean by "cancel culture", because I sure as shit wasn't including rape and death threats.

             Which bit did you want clarification on? The crowdsourcing thing or why I think the limit has largely been met? (as in people pretty much know what they'll get a backlash on – the instances of "make a casual comment then get on a plane, only to discover 12 hours later you've lost your job and your sponsors" are much more rare these days, imo).
4. Byd0nz 4

   9 July 2020 at 6:05 pm

   I see the Five eyes squinting at China, re HK.NZs independence usurped again by the yankee masterspy network,does this mean its ok to trash and firebomb Government property in 5 eye countries.
5. Muttonbird 5

   9 July 2020 at 6:20 pm

   There was a piece today the Herald maybe where they'd contacted the Countdown Covid runner.

   According to their reporting he 'refused' to say why he absconded, and they also spent a lot of time referencing the 20 min phone call.

   I think what's happened is he's an ordinary, entitled NZ Indian resident or citizen who had no idea at all about what was expected of him, probably didn't listen on arrival and doesn't follow the news at all so wouldn't have clue about the situation in NZ.

   He went to get some toiletries and then called his family.

   I felt though that the Herald was pointing to a deliberate motive. Is this just them manufacturing intrigue? Or is it seeding their article with known damaging info to be revealed later?

   In today's NZ media environment, you'd never know until it was too late.

   In short, is the National Party incentivising returnees to break out of quarantine? Wouldn't put it past them.
   • RedBaronCV 5.1

     9 July 2020 at 9:18 pm

     I had put this over in open mike but either something is going on or he is just making excuses – so throw everything at him.

     He says "Nobody told him anything?"

     So what did he think was going on? That the NZ government picks up everybody from the airport complete with minders and trucks them all off to a downtown hotel and pays their accommodation bill while they trot round sightseeing? I mean really? They even have to sign in get an info pack and leave details.

     If he's good enough to have a debit card and work a checkout then you think he'd be smart enough to work out that something was going on and he'd better pay attention or find out.
   • xanthe 5.2

     10 July 2020 at 9:35 am

     "In short, is the National Party incentivising returnees to break out of quarantine? "

     That is the question I also would like an answer to
6. mauī 6

   9 July 2020 at 6:23 pm

   While National gets lost looking for where ethics and decency live, the media will pick up and run with their most odious lines.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122083465/police-union-slams-government-for-posting-247-cop-babysitters-at-covid-quarantine-facilities
   • I Feel Love 6.1

     9 July 2020 at 6:32 pm

     This could be the hardest working Govt we've ever had! No lying down and cuppas for them, even though they deserve one.
     • Muttonbird 6.1.1

       9 July 2020 at 6:39 pm

       Well said.
   • Bearded Git 6.2

     9 July 2020 at 7:31 pm

     The police union guy is clearly exaggerating where he says 240 police will be needed…..and as Megan Woods says the police are being brought in because they have the power to detain and arrest.

     This article has the flavour of a National Party beat-up yet again. Shame on Stuff for printing this biased crap.
     • McFlock 6.2.1

       9 July 2020 at 9:09 pm

       Not much of an exagerration – you'd be running 5 shifts per facility (three 8 hour shifts A:C, with D and E at different leave stages of the roster, e.g. D on a two day break between early and late shift, and E on a break of several days after the graveyard shift, and fill up the change with some training time or overlapped evening shifts).

       240/5 = 48 officers operating at any one time. 48 cops/28 facilities = 1.7 police per facility on average.
   • observer 6.3

     9 July 2020 at 7:41 pm

     Not sure what that Stuff link has to do with National.

     The police union spokesman (Cahill) has a valid point, but there is little chance of that being considered in the current climate. A burglary in an Auckland suburb will get zero news coverage, whereas anything at all happening in/near an isolation hotel will be a guaranteed headline, even if it is far less serious than e.g. a dairy robbery. Understandably the government responds to that media coverage (all politicians always do, naive to think otherwise).

     Throughout the Covid response there has been a need for balance (what is effective, but also legal, but also affordable, but also practical, but also acceptable … etc).

     Overall the government has got it right, but not perfect. I'd rather the police weren't needed, but nobody is making a more constructive and practical suggestion. "Stick them somewhere else" is the default response, followed by "But not here".
     • mauī 6.3.1

       9 July 2020 at 8:58 pm

       The police are there to keep the public safe, why isn't the article couched in these terms? Instead it's been made into a non-issue debate over police resourcing.
     • RedBaronCV 6.3.2

       9 July 2020 at 9:08 pm

       A covid breakout in the community would be far more expensive than a very decent bank robbery and eventually result in a greater loss of life than all but a mass murder. Breaking quarantine is not a victimless crime by any means unless we get lucky- so yes good use of police time just on an economic basis before even delving into the social outcomes.

       However, if quarantine is to be ongoing maybe we need to shift it away from our major cities. At least there would then be a decent walk – miles- to the store. But it would not be either easy or cheap . The current system isn't cheap either.

       [Fixed error in e-mail address]
       • Incognito 6.3.2.1

         9 July 2020 at 9:24 pm

         Please correct the typo in your e-mail address before you submit your comments, thanks. I’ve done it three times because your comments are held up in Auto-Moderation because of the typo.
7. Grafton Gully 7

   9 July 2020 at 9:01 pm

   Bertrand Russell on democracy in China. "democracy is the best form of government where it’ll work —- one could see that it wouldn't work there, they hadn't the political experience" 12:37 on.

   
   
   
8. aj 8

   9 July 2020 at 9:58 pm

   I'd like to give a shout out to Victoria, they need all the moral support they can get.

   Ok, they didn't do our steriod-based lock down which was managed to steer through but are now doing their level 3 for the second time and for 6 weeks.

   The Tower Blocks are literally locked down, very tough. Aussies are going to have to dig deep to get themselves out of this and I wish them the best.

   They will need their version of a 5 million person team effort and I hope the most vulnerable get through without too much damage.
   • Koff 8.1

     9 July 2020 at 10:15 pm

     Agreed. I'm very sorry for Victorians and there is a possibility that the virus has escaped beyond Victoria's borders into NSW already – only time will tell. Victoria was the only state / territory that still had a small amount of community transmission going on.

     There is far less rabid, immature blame gaming going on in Oz, compared to the silliness in NZ, rather surprisingly. Even Scott Morrison, not someone I would normally have anything positive to say about, has given full moral and practical support to the Victorian lockdown / border closures, despite being on the opposite side of politics to Victoria's state government. No carping from other states either – they are giving help even if there is a lot of worry about the situation escalating.

     Maybe there would be more of a scrum if a federal election was due this year?
9. Patricia Bremner 9

   9 July 2020 at 10:30 pm

   Chris Cahill what a sour unhelpful body. President of the Police Association. Is he voted into his position? If that is the view of the bulk of police Wow!!! "Political reasons for Police deployment to make the Government look good" Really??? Guarding returnees.

   I thought the Police were meant to "Serve to keep the Community safe"
   • observer 9.1

     9 July 2020 at 10:59 pm

     I think he's still an improvement on Greg O'Connor, though that's a pretty low bar. He used to insert himself into every news story about the police and only ever said two things: "the police cannot possibly have got it wrong", or when they clearly had, "let's not rush to judgement". I suppose he'd say he was a union rep doing his job for his members.

     But anyway, if the police are required now (because of two breaches, essentially) then it's reasonable to ask why they weren't required before. It's clear the job has to be done by somebody, even if 99.9% are happy to be "part of the team". If there are 6000 in isolation, then 0.1% being idiots is still 6 days of news headlines and risk.
   • gsays 9.2

     10 July 2020 at 7:28 am

     I heard a police spokesperson on RNZ yesty evening.

     Until I heard him speak I shared your opinion.

     He implied that we would be less safe if police were taken from their current roles and put on guard duty. eg dealing with family harm, folk having mental health crises and road safety.

     These absconders are an anomaly, although TBH I heard Minister Woods say that quarantinees are getting less happy to comply compared to earlier in the emergency.

     He also suggested a solution in using members of other enforcement agencies eg Customs.

     This issue comes up time and time again: security guards being blamed for stuff.

     An institution chooses to sub-contract out security issues in places where certain skill sets are required eg Emergency Departments. An ability to be pro-active, de-escalate and restraint if necessary. Unfortunately this investment in staff does not happen.

     True Story, the evening after the Chch mosque murders, while our local hospital was in lock-down, a person was sitting in the waiting room with a cross-bow. When the security guard was challenged on this, he replied with “he looks OK”.
     • Sacha 9.2.1

       10 July 2020 at 8:57 am

       Their problem is that only Police have arrest powers. Do we really want to solve that by giving those to Customs, Health, prison staff or contractors deployed at these hotels?
       • gsays 9.2.1.1

         10 July 2020 at 1:16 pm

         I suppose it is easy and glib for me to say yes to giving those other agencies arrest powers, albeit temporary.

         I was more looking at their communication ability, dealing with public, enforcement and authority.

         I understand it is ok to commit a crime to prevent a worse crime occuring. eg denying someone their liberty to stop potential spead of disease.
         • Sacha 9.2.1.1.1

           10 July 2020 at 1:23 pm

           I do not personally have a problem with it either, but we know enough pundits will to make a fuss.

           Adding police will not take away other agencies being responsible for the functions you mention. Communication sure needs to improve.
10. aom 10

    9 July 2020 at 11:12 pm

    Give us a fucking break – now we have a self-entitled puffed up travel consultant, Irene King, dumping on the government because it has paused the flow of new arrivals so the country can accommodate Covid-19 refugees. According to her, this pause would deal a huge financial blow for Air New Zealand and the wider aviation sector and could result in the loss of hundreds of jobs. Seemingly, the taxpayers should be financing endless quarantine facilities, which now includes Police, to rein in recalcitrants, to keep airlines in profit making territory. Of course, it is Stuff at it again!

    For those with a tough constitution for the absurd, the link is: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/122074644/airfare-freeze-airlines-set-pricing-to-entice-anxious-customers-and-recoup-financial-damage.
    • Foreign waka 10.1

      10 July 2020 at 7:46 am

      Lets see, if we go by a majority vote of those NZlanders who have had to stay home, in line for basics for weeks and only slowly coming out of that imposed isolation with caution, I think its a no brainer.

      Unless some selfish people think they can escape a virus outbreak on an island no less and we have to go to another shut down. Hands up who wants the border closed until the issue of renegade arrivals, placements and accommodation is being properly managed. This does not mean that people are not allowed back home, it means they come home in a managed way that is safe for EVERYBODY.

      And no, we will not live in tents in order that Air NZ can make a profit.
11. observer 11

    9 July 2020 at 11:51 pm

    Well, this will send the crazies over the edge, with their "Cindy takes orders from Helen" obsession.

    Clark has been appointed to lead the WHO review of the pandemic and the world (more or less). Read all about it tomorrow, should make a few headlines.

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