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Open mike 10/07/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 10th, 2020 - 215 comments
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215 comments on “Open mike 10/07/2020 ”

    • yes A bloody fine article – should be required reading for all neolibs!

    • Draco T Bastard 1.2

      That's a good example not for more taxes but for a maximum income. And, no, it won't be set at 18 or 20 eggs but at 9 or 10. More than enough each but not so much that it automatically forces others into poverty.

      BTW, the high taxes that we used to have were exactly that – a maximum income. Although they weren't really high enough to achieve that and the rich could, and still do, structure their income in such a way so as to avoid it thus proving that using taxes as an indirect income ceiling doesn't work.

    • Andre 1.3

      That piece makes the mistake of starting out be buying into the false framing of the "tax is theft" crowd by only talking about transfers from individuals to individuals.

      But only about a third of government revenue goes to social security and welfare, the rest goes to maintaining a functioning society.

      Seems to me the better framing is around contributing back to maintaining the society that made it possible to gather lots of eggs, so that it will remain possible to again gather lots of eggs next year and the year after and the year after. And just a fraction of the cost of maintaining society is ensuring everyone gets at least the minimum number of eggs to adequately get by on.

  1. aom 2

    Holy F**k – Stuff is at it again today. The latest mountain out of a molehill offering is an opinion piece, the shabby wordsmithing of Thomas Manch! Today's propaganda installment reads almost as though the dastardly criminal Megan Woods took a poor sad Covid affected, wanderer down to a local Countdown with the express purpose of unleashing a pandemic on the public. Thank God the likes of al Jazeera and even the Guardian are capable of providing competent commentary because sure as hell, it is hard to find in the NZ media.

  2. Dennis Frank 3

    Simon Bridges discovered the secret of happiness, and told Toby Manhire:

    a crisp midwinter walk somewhere near Nelson in the great country of Aotearoa, in gumboots, in shorts, with a Roxy Music T-shirt, with a baby yak. https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/09-07-2020/the-two-step-plan-to-becoming-as-happy-as-simon-bridges/

    I now feel a bit of performance anxiety around social media posts. There hasn’t been a whole lot of thought going into them. But with Baby Yak taking off, I’m not sure what I’m going to do next. I did have a Mouse Town lined up, my niece’s pet mouse has a series of tunnels and things

    The two-step plan is this:

    1. Become leader of the opposition.
    2. Get rolled as leader of the opposition.

    The method seems to work on a bipartisan basis:

    As far as I can tell the life story of David Shearer is one great long line of guitars, surfboards, friends, and all-round contentedness, interrupted only by a brief and grisly interval as leader of the Labour Party. After he was mercilessly defenestrated by his so-called friends, Shearer went to work in the relatively harmonious war-torn South Sudan. And you could just see the weight lifted.

    • I Feel Love 3.1

      That's awesome, I imagine David Clark is another happy chappy too.

    • Morrissey 3.2

      What an embarrassment he is. National's "brains trust" (headed by Michelle Boag) must have thought there was no way but up after getting rid of him.

      Incredibly, they were wrong.

  3. Dennis Frank 4

    Rosemary McLeod has a cool photo of Matt McCarten giving Michelle Boag advice: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/122075230/boag-and-walker-have-put-nats-regrowth-on-hold

    Dunno how to shrink it into this space here, but he seems to be giving her the inside word on how to destabilise Labour – you can tell from the expressions on their faces.

  4. Dennis Frank 5

    So Todd's master plan is now in the pipeline, and it bears an uncanny resemblance to socialism: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12346799

    He said the plan's framework was made up of five components: responsible economic management; delivering infrastructure; reskilling and retraining the workforce; a greener, smarter future; and building stronger communities.

    That means marketing is now crucial. Framing so as to persuade Nats that it isn't actually socialism ain’t gonna be easy. Hooten may have to hire a pr specialist. He is one? Um… Well when your audience has been trained since childhood to call a spade a spade, you will have to outwit them somehow.

    I know! Use Jim Bolger! He has already gone public with his view that neoliberalism failed. He could be authentic in selling `smart socialism' as a brand then, eh? Frame Labour's lame version as `dumb socialism' and the Labs will have no option other than telling the electorate "Actually, we're neoliberals, not socialists." Problem solved.

    • Incognito 5.1

      You can call it anything you like, e.g. post-neoliberal socialism, or dress it up anyway you like, but unless National has had an overnight epiphany, which in some cases means a transformative (AKA life changing) epiphany during a lie down and cuppa tea, then it still is neoliberalism. Marketing, my ass; look at what’s under the bonnet of the ‘red’ car that has come out of the panel beater’s workshop.

      • greywarshark 5.1.1

        Nats are into transformative plastic surgery; viz Paula Bennett and are also concerned about upping their mental agility, they've a bit of furring, thickening of the veins etc. However free markets enable all sorts of remedies, bleach might be more efficacious than a cup of tea.

    • Gabby 5.2

      'She's a Pretty Communist' Guy won't be having that.

  5. Rosemary McDonald 6

    Nothing unusual, really, about Boag and her cronies exploiting gifts of personal data landing spontaneously in their laps…but the real issue here is why on earth rescue helicopter businesses were sent the information by the Mystery of Health in the first place. What possible purpose would be served by rescue services having this very specific information?

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12346999

    The former ARHT doctor struggled to see why the ARHT should be given the patient lists even if there were hundreds of cases across the country.

    Early on when we were in level 4 lockdown … level 3 lockdown, the ambulance services were treating any patient who had respiratory symptoms as a possible Covid patient and wearing appropriate personal protective equipment. So actually knowing the identity and being sent a list of patients is just not helpful," McGuinness said.

    Which obliges us to remember one of the earliest (and perhaps the most harmful) of Bloomfield's confused messaging.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12322248

    Ambulance staff would not perform CPR on a confirmed Covid-19 case, Director-General of Health Ashley Bloomfield says.

    This was a guideline adopted internationally, he said, and because the virus was spread via the respiratory system.

    This was very quickly disputed by these 'ambulance staff'…

    However, St John said it would continue to resuscitate patients in cardiac arrest and there had been no directive that CPR should not be done on suspected or confirmed Covid-19 cases.

    "Like all ambulance services in New Zealand, Australia and internationally, we have issued additional instructions to ambulance officers when responding to cardiac arrest patients because of the increased risk of exposure to Covid-19 during resuscitation," a spokesman said.

    "Guidance includes donning additional personal protective equipment (PPE) and alterations to the way that patients are resuscitated (for example, providing ventilation using specific devices and not through a face mask), to reduce the risk of transmission of viral infection, if present."

    To my knowledge, Bloomfield has never revised that directive….

    • I Feel Love 6.1

      I can't find it but there was an article on RNZ with garbled quotes from Boag and one of them was she asked for the emails to be sent to her to make sure no one on Waiheke had Covid, why she had been receiving them through the whole pandemic. I'll try again to find it, was a very confusing bunch of excuses.

      • Rosemary McDonald 6.1.1

        I have not take Boag seriously as a human being since she commandeered that rescue helicopter to go pick up her forgotten passport.

        The whole Pullar thing cast all involved in a remarkably poor light.

        Beggars belief that anybody who aspires to public office would see association with such a one as a benefit.

        Scratching dogs and fleas….

    • McFlock 6.2

      I'll definitely be interested in the thinking behind distributing that infromation to responders, and it will be documented somewhere. Another matter for the inquiry, but not the main event, imo.

  6. Ed 7

    The plot thickens….

    Michael Woodhouse now admits he received information from Boag.

    Did he receive the information on the 2 travellers from her?
    Did he receive the information on the homeless an from her?

    ‘”This was confirmed for me as I wrote to Michael Heron QC last night to advise him that towards the end of June I had sent several emails to Michael Woodhouse comprising notification of a small number of then new Covid19 cases.”

    Sounds like it.

    Did Woodhouse use the leaked information?

    And is Muller really telling us that his Health Spokesperson told him nothing about 4 emails he received from Boag between the 21st and 25th June?

    Another 2 resignations needed.

    Dirty Politics alive and kicking in the National Party.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12347017

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/420906/covid-19-privacy-leak-michael-woodhouse-says-he-received-emails-from-michelle-boag

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300053836/michelle-boag-leaves-national-party-after-leaking-patient-info-to-michael-woodhouse

    • Tiger Mountain 7.1

      Wait there’s more…
      and likely as long as Mr Heron keeps investigating, the headlines will keep coming for a while yet, despite National’s attempts to deflect, minimise, bury and ignore.

      It has taken international media to point out the obvious situation of local media supporting and enabling NZ National’s Covid attack lines ahead of public safety. A big clean out is due in this country. National’s dirty tricks are deeply embedded in the party culture, not an aberration.

    • mac1 7.2

      So who did Woodhouse tell about four leaks from a known source that he knew enough not to share with media because of what they contained.

      Does the National Party view of morality for Nikki Kay's 'moral obligation' to win the election include using illicitly gained information as Walker did?

      Does the National Party view of morality for Nikki Kay's 'moral obligation' to win the election include not alerting the proper authorities to the distribution and access to such information as Woodhouse did not do in a timely with his 'cuddling couple' preferring to use it for political purposes in the House?

      Does the National Party view of morality for Nikki Kay's 'moral obligation' to win the election include not alerting the proper authorities to the distribution and access to such information as Woodhouse did not do with the four emails (so far) from Michelle Boag?

      Who can believe that senior members of the National Party be it leadership, leader's staff or party officials did not know?

      This is indeed the time for the National Party to examine more closely the ethics of its MPs, staff and organisation- a few years in Opposition lockdown and isolation might help.

      Aren't they lucky that Winston is in hospital at the moment!

      • Ed 7.2.1

        Great questions.

        Pity we don't have a media that will ask them.

        Michael Woodhouse is on RNZ at 10.30 a.m.

        Will Kathryn Ryan ask the important questions?

    • ianmac 7.3

      If Boag is releasing information that she kept Woodhouse informed, is she doing so because she is bitter and twisted and is seeking revenge?

      • Ed 7.3.1

        Quite possibly.

      • woodart 7.3.2

        two yes;s and a maybe

      • RJL 7.3.3

        Or maybe the "problem" is that the inquiry has her email server?

      • Treetop 7.3.4

        May be over the years the National Party rot that Boag has managed it became normalised to her and she got away with it until she knew she had lost control and tried to shut it down but had no control over what Woodhouse or Muller would say.

        If you take Boag and Walker out you have a Woodhouse and Muller credibility issue.

        Muller needs to backbench Woodhouse and Kaye needs to come clean if Boag or Woodhouse sent her the emails and if she went to Muller.

  7. Anker 8

    Yes no surprises there with Woodhouse. No alarm bells for him about Michelle giving him confidential patient information on four occasions like “what the f..k Michelle’s why are you passing this stuff on?”……..or why do you a non clinical person have this information in the first place.

    btw I think it is reasonable rescue helicopters ie their clinicians were give this. It’s a bloody pandemic, frontline staff are putting their lives at risk and I cannot think of a time when clinicians intensional you leaked notes although there was a famous whistle blower case in the 1990s. Rem

    • Ed 8.1

      So Woodhouse did not tell Muller for over 2 weeks…….

      • observer 8.1.1

        Yes, that's the killer line. Since June 21! Incredible. All while standing next to his boss, slamming the government and telling us how we needed the National "team".

        Of the two options, I'm more inclined to believe he didn't tell Muller, than he did and Muller kept quiet. Like most National MPs, Woodhouse couldn't care less about his leader. Muller has no clout in that caucus at all.

        • Ed 8.1.1.1

          Agreed.

          His behaviour over the two travellers to Wellington shows his priorities.

        • anker 8.1.1.2

          Ha ha ha Observer……yes Michelle welcomed him with open arms, viewed his selfies and then penned her next missive to Michael Woodhouse……..

          BTW has Woodhouse resigned yet? My husband just sent him a corker letter about his outrageous and despicable behavour towards Clare Curren with the toilet seat.

          Told my husband who has yet to have a response from Woodhouse, that clearly he had other things on his mind and he would probably get to hubby's letter on the weekend…………happy days!

      • dv 8.1.2

        AND what's more he had a ping at the leakage of the the self same health info as disgracefully shambollicly

  8. Ffloyd 9

    Michael Woodhouse said he DELETED information sent from MBoag. LMAO. That little gem has set me up for the day.

    • Ed 9.1

      "Subsequently."

      To quote him.

      "I recognised that the information in those emails was private so I did not share it with anyone else and I subsequently deleted them."

      The key word is "subsequently".

      He did not say "immediately."

      If he received the emails on the 21 June and deleted them yesterday, he would have deleted them "subsequently".

      • mickysavage 9.1.1

        Like 2 minutes after he was asked if Boag had provided information to him!

        • observer 9.1.1.1

          At the very least, Woodhouse needs to show a reply from him to Boag saying "WTF Michelle! Cease and desist, now!".

          Preferably not one he came up with this morning. He'll need to fake the date stamp.

      • xanthe 9.1.2

        If he received the emails on the 21 June and deleted them yesterday, he would have deleted them "subsequently".

        exactly ! We should assume thats what he has done.

        • ianmac 9.1.2.1

          Yes. He said that was what he did. Deleted last Monday/Tuesday after sitting on them since June.

  9. Just Is 10

    So Woodhouse is now admitting Boag Leaked information to him as well

    The story reads as though Boag has been at the bottom of all leakages, maybe just a red hearing to protect the real source.

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/national-mp-michael-woodhouse-admits-receiving-similar-covid-19-leak-michelle-boag

    • observer 10.1

      No, Woodhouse claims he has another source as well.

      “I can confirm that Michelle Boag is not the source of my previous information released by me in relation to the Government’s Covid-19 response.”

      (obviously we can’t believe a word he says, but it doesn’t rule out another source)

    • Ed 10.2

      Quite possibly. There is clearly a mole there.

      Woodhouse needs to explain why he sat on that information for over 2 weeks.

      • greywarshark 10.2.1

        He brooded about it while he waited for it to hatch. He didn't know whether to get egg on someone's face or wait for it to fully develop.

  10. Marcus Morris 11

    Spectacular announcement just now. Boag feeding Woodhouse stuff for weeks. Muller claiming just yesterday that there was no need to question his own MP's on whether or not they had anything to hide. All done and dusted he claimed, with the confessions of Walker and Boag. The great unravelling has only just begun.

  11. Chris T 12

    Have they worked out where the Countdown bloke actually went for 70 minutes yet, or is this beyond the current people in charge?

    • observer 12.1

      He went to Michelle Boag's apartment, where he had a cup of tea and a lie-down.

      • mac1 12.1.1

        And shared his selfies?

      • anker 12.1.2

        Chris T criticizing the govt now and the quarantine facilities is just a pathetic distraction. I suggest you go to stuff and read the article by the pathologist that has just arrived in the country to take up a job and is in quarantine who says our system is the gold standard and one other countries should model themselves on.

        You are making yourself look a little ridiculous here. A bit like Woodhouse with the homeless man

    • ianmac 12.2

      22 minutes was spent on his phone making use of the free internet outside the Supermarket and 15 minutes inside the Supermarket which leaves 33 minutes to walk there and back.

      Hard luck Chris.

      • Chris T 12.2.1

        Apparently the supermarket is 5 minutes walk away.

        • anker 12.2.1.1

          Chris don't you realize that people aren't pissed off with the Govt over this guy leaving isolation. They are very, very pissed off with the offender. Calling for jail time etc……………

          Your onto a loser here Chris….

      • xanthe 12.2.2

        I want to know if he has confirmed that the 22 minutes on the phone were calls to NZ Herald and RNZ. ?

        Who did he send the selfies to?

    • Gabby 12.3

      He drove back to his electorate.

    • bwaghorn 12.4

      He leaked confidential information to news companies!!

      Oh wait no that was the national party!!

    • anker 12.5

      Chris T criticizing the govt now and the quarantine facilities is just a pathetic distraction. I suggest you go to stuff and read the article by the pathologist that has just arrived in the country to take up a job and is in quarantine who says our system is the gold standard and one other countries should model themselves on.

      You are making yourself look a little ridiculous here. A bit like Woodhouse with the homeless man

      • Chris T 12.5.1

        Yes. Because people disappearing for 70 minutes on one of the countries busiest streets, who are seen in a supermarket 5 minutes walk away and no more info, who are later found to be covid positive is merely a distraction.

        frown

        • Gabby 12.5.1.1

          I'm sure he was just picking up some drugs or sutin.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 12.5.1.2

          Bit feeble Chris T – a lot's happened since that walkabout, but don't worry, there will be others, and Boag/Walker/Woodhouse/Muller et al. will be all over them.

          Once there have been a few more quarantine and managed isolation 'runners', the media can start compiling stats on their political affiliations.

          In other news:

          Skiiers [sic] are facing hour-long waits to get up Mt Hutt as traffic jams clog the access road.

          All five car parks filled up before the mountain opened at 9am and police have been called to help with parking on surrounding streets.”

          https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/420908/freezing-temperatures-as-skiers-face-lengthy-traffic-jams

          Oh the humanity.

        • left_forward 12.5.1.3

          Nah its not sticking Crusty, unlike…

        • Morrissey 12.5.1.4

          Not good, and it should be criticized intelligently. Unfortunately, we don't have a credible Opposition party in this country.

    • Naki man 12.6

      The current people in charge are fucking useless, another scum bag has now wandered off from a Hamilton hotel. If this Government doesn't pull it's finger out of it's arse we will end up in lockdown again.

      • observer 12.6.1

        You really need to read up on the news before sounding off.

        It's not hard, the details of his case are widely reported.

      • Incognito 12.6.2

        Have a lie down and a cuppa or a KitKat. You’re starting to sound like a National MP.

        • I Feel Love 12.6.2.1

          The army should be in charge! The police should be in charge! We're gonna have every bloody agency in charge soon, just to keep NZrs in a motel.

          • Incognito 12.6.2.1.1

            All that untapped electricity from Tiwai Pt should be used to charge them and zap hem into obeisance. If that doesn’t work, call Paul McKenna.

      • Ed 12.6.3

        its.
        If this Government doesn’t pull its finger……..

        it’s
        it’s not hard

        • In Vino 12.6.3.1

          Quite right, Ed. it's = abbreviation for 'it is', or 'it has'.

          its = belonging to it.

          As resident pedant, I was going to comment, but was pleased to see you raise the point.

          Naki man's failure to properly control his apostrophes is utterly shambolic, and shows that he is utterly unfit to govern.

  12. Kiwijoker 13

    Way,way better than Shortland Street!

  13. bwaghorn 14

    All that excess power that's coming Southland's way should be used to run a hydrogen plant for trucking fuel.

  14. Morrissey 15

    Woodhouse: “It was beyond my comprehension that anyone in the National Party could have done that.”

    This unspeakable piece of work just said that on RNZ National. He is squirming under interrogation from Kathryn Ryan right now.

    Transcript on the way, fellas!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Woodhouse#/media/File:Michael_Woodhouse.jpg

  15. Chris T 16

    The Nats Chinese spy dude has bit the bullet apparently and is standing down.

    • Gabby 16.1

      Has the mothership called him home? Is he needed in Hong Kong?

    • Morrissey 16.2

      That's a positive move. Now when will Woodhouse stand down?

      • pete 16.2.1

        They could start a company with a fancy name that sounds all sort of legal:

        Walker, Woodhouse & Yang

        They could deal in ethics and suchlike.

      • Graeme 16.2.2

        At current rate it's not looking good for any Nat list candidates, or MPs. Sod all chance they’ll get enough Party votes to get any in off the list

    • observer 16.3

      Anyone missing the days when nothing happened on a Friday? smiley

      It's good that Yang is standing down. It's not good that as a result, the public will (probably) never know the full story.

      • Morrissey 16.3.1

        Sorry, can't resist….

      • Chris T 16.3.2

        Tbf Friday has always been the day the current govt dump shit loads of dodgy stuff at about 5pm to stop it being in the news.

        Helen and Key started the tradition, and the current lot are carrying it on.

    • Just Is 16.4

      Does that mean there are no Financial Donations coming Nationals way now

      • Gabby 16.4.1

        Or has he got his network up and running?

        • Just Is 16.4.1.1

          Very cynical of you, but quite possibly true.

          Maybe, just maybe, Yang was the one with the mole in the MOH, and is worried about the potential fall out.

          At the moment it's looking like "Rats leaving a sinking ship"

      • Draco T Bastard 16.4.2

        No. It means that those donations are less in the spotlight.

  16. Stephen D 17

    Nikki Kaye is lying very low through all this.

    Waiting for her chance, before the election?

    • Just Is 18.1

      Send them back to their place of origin, that way their free to do whatever they like, in another country.

      All new entrants to NZ should be warned that is the penalty for NOT FOLLOWING THE RULES, no excuses.

      • Ed 18.1.1

        I am not sure that is legal.

        Prison.

        • Just Is 18.1.1.1

          No, probably not, but Laws can be changed in extraordinary circumstances.

        • Draco T Bastard 18.1.1.2

          Depends.

          By NZ law and international treaties its illegal for NZ to send a person back where they came from if that person is in danger of being killed if they're sent back. Unfortunately, this applies even for criminals.

      • Janet 18.1.2

        Name and shame them.

      • Draco T Bastard 18.1.3

        Send them back to their place of origin

        What if NZ is their place of origin?

        All new entrants to NZ should be warned that is the penalty for NOT FOLLOWING THE RULES, no excuses.

        Deportation is already part of the rules but it does need to be used more.

        • Just Is 18.1.3.1

          By place of origin I mean the place they arrived from, or more specifically the country they traveled from to get to the Safe Haven, NZ

          • Draco T Bastard 18.1.3.1.1

            But we can't do that to NZers as they have a right to be here and expect the government to look after them.

            Of course, they don't have a right to break the rules and thus should be sent to prison. Considering how bad the possible consequences are from this guys actions that should be prison for a minimum of 21 years with solo confinement at the beginning.

            • Just Is 18.1.3.1.1.1

              As the potential exists for infection into the community, then the potential exists for someone to be infected by the escapee which could result in death.

              21 Years sounds about right

          • maggieinnz 18.1.3.1.2

            Legally, we have to allow them home. No way around it nor should it even be considered.

  17. observer 19

    Idiot in Hamilton cuts through fence at isolation hotel, goes out to buy booze. Now in custody.

    As I mentioned before, if 6000 people are in isolation, and 99.9% follow the rules, that still leaves 6 who don't. As long as isolation continues (and it will for months) then these stories are inevitable. Fuckwits don't disappear, anywhere on earth.

    He was arrested. The alternative headline is "man shot while trying to escape". People should probably think about that.

    • Ed 19.1

      The army is needed to run these operations.

    • Chris T 19.2

      Another one then.

      It is only inevitable while the isolation security is so shit btw

      • observer 19.2.1

        What should the response be to a person cutting through, or climbing, a fence?

        Think it through first. Assess the manpower needed, and the rules they would be required to follow.

        • Incognito 19.2.1.1

          Why wasn’t the fence encrypted and/or password protected? Obviously, the Minister of Health is incompetent and needs to go.

      • left_forward 19.2.2

        Yeah! let's roll in the tanks and gun em down!

        FFS macho boys.

      • Just Is 19.2.3

        So Chris, no self responsibility, I thought that was one of the main planks of National Party policy.

        I say we send the offenders straight back to their place of origin with no chance of reentry for at least 6 months, let them cover their own costs.

        • Chris T 19.2.3.1

          I wouldn't know

          What I am saying is maybe a bit of highlight should be put on how these people are being housed and looked after.

          But no.

          Who cares.

          • The Al1en 19.2.3.1.1

            This escapee at least had to cut through a fence to go walkies. It's not like he was a convicted child abusing murderer who walked out of the front door of a prison having obtained a false passport and shamed the then corrections minister and government by flying to Brazil.

            • Draco T Bastard 19.2.3.1.1.1

              But he was trying for possible mass manslaughter. After all, his actions of escaping quarantine could have been the death of many people including children.

              So, yeah, he's as bad as the child abusing murderer.

              • The Al1en

                So, yeah, he's as bad as the child abusing murderer.

                Not in my book. Bad, potential for a very bad outcome, but nowhere near kiddie fiddling and murder. But each to their own and all that.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  He was breaking the rules because he felt he was more important than those he was putting at risk – exactly the same as the child fiddling murderer.

                  • The Al1en

                    Not at all, really, but the point of my original reply was putting the claim "isolation security is so shit" in some context, where actual convicted offenders, in actual prisons, can and do escape.

          • observer 19.2.3.1.2

            We all care, Chris, and I'm sure you do too (not sarc).

            But the people trying to run this thing also care, and have to deal with problems that are more or less infinite.

            A small one, relevant today: Should there be alcohol in isolation? How is addiction treated? What are the risks/consequences of cold turkey?

            Nobody can answer that with a one-liner. And it's only item 74 on the agenda.

          • Draco T Bastard 19.2.3.1.3

            What I am saying is maybe a bit of highlight should be put on how these people are being housed and looked after.

            No, it wouldn't do that. The only thing that could be used as is as an attack line by the immoral right-wing against the government – which, of course, is what's been happening.

          • Just Is 19.2.3.1.4

            The percentage of people escaping from quarantine is

            0.005%

            That's a pretty small number

            • Chris T 19.2.3.1.4.1

              And one was infected, who disappeared for 70 minutes to who knows where apart from a supermarket, which would have taken about 25 minutes

      • rod 19.2.4

        Chris I think you gloating is so shit btw.

  18. Just Is 20

    Just reported, another escapee, this time a quarantine facilty in Hamilton, the man in his 50s cut some cable ties on a fence to escape to the local bottle store

    For me, the penalty for this should be to send the offenders back to wherever they came from, a strong message needs to sent, you're not welcome if you don't follow the rules.

    The risk is too high to let these people potentially harm our safe haven that a Team of 5 million has so graciously worked towards.

    • Muttonbird 20.1

      Should smear Covid on his continental breakfast and force feed it to him.

      • Just Is 20.1.1

        And then send them back to their place origin.

        • Ed 20.1.1.1

          I think United Nations rules say people must allowed to return to their countries?

        • greywarshark 20.1.1.2

          Sending them back costs in itself. And anyway the men, I suppose but must not be sexist, are just showing typical NZ impudence about responsibility and booze and should blend in seamlessly when released.

          • Just Is 20.1.1.2.1

            Make them fund their own transport costs, if they can't, lock them up in complete isolation untill they're clear of infection and then release them into the normal prison population for at least 6 months, we need to send a clear message.

            The people escaping seem to be encouraging others to follow suit as there appears to be no penalty that reflects the crime

        • bwaghorn 20.1.1.3

          A 50 year old that cant go 2 weeks without booze!! Almost gaurentees hes a kiwi born and breed. Maybe they should give them access to some 2.5 % beers, at their own cost.

          • Incognito 20.1.1.3.1

            Let them eat cake!

            • bwaghorn 20.1.1.3.1.1

              With a set of wire cutters baked in.

              I see they've named and shamed him and packed him off to prison, hope they do it to the other one .

        • maggieinnz 20.1.1.4

          That's kinda why they're here. They're kiwis…

    • Ed 20.2

      About time an example was made of these 2 sets of selfish *******

      Quarantine offenders and the National Party – both need a serious penalty to encourage them to play for the team.

      • Just Is 20.2.1

        Maybe we should have them sign a contract on their arrival and put up a bond that was returnable after their isolation was complete, the bond would cover the cost of chasing them down and the subsequent cost of 6 months in jail.

    • weka 20.3

      For me, the penalty for this should be to send the offenders back to wherever they came from, a strong message needs to sent, you're not welcome if you don't follow the rules

      Back to where they came from, the quarantine hotel?

      • Just Is 20.3.1

        No, the country of origin, where ever they arrived from, they don't deserve the right to come here if they don't respect the rules and potentially spread the virus

        Relistically, the penalties need to reflect the potential harm, someone could possibly become infected as a result of escaping and end up being a fatality, Murder of the first degree.

        Alternatively, stop all new arrivals, but that's not really fair for the 99.9% of arrivals that do follow the rules

        • Chris T 20.3.1.1

          They are probably kiwi citizens

          • Ed 20.3.1.1.1

            Prison is the solution.

          • Just Is 20.3.1.1.2

            Chis, saying they're probably NZ citizens doesn't mean they born here

            Nearly 20% of NZ citizens have come here over the 12 yrs

            • Draco T Bastard 20.3.1.1.2.1

              Nearly 20% of NZ citizens have come here over the 12 yrs

              In which case having their permanent residence/NZ citizenship stripped from them and sending them back should be an option.

            • Chris T 20.3.1.1.2.2

              So you are saying that kiwi citizens only have certain rights if they are born here?

              Forgive me if I have the wrong end of the stick.

              If I do have the right end, what is the point of people getting cictizenship?

              And what year range are we talking?

              Someone who is 30 and lived here 3 years is less of a real citizen than some 60 who has lived her since they were 2?

            • McFlock 20.3.1.1.2.3

              So your solution doesn't apply 80% of the time.

              • In Vino

                Even leading (or ex-) members of the National Party are NZ citizens, Chris T.
                Yet they subvert our efforts.

      • Sacha 20.3.2

        Back to Queenstown in this latest case. Hellhole.

    • AB 20.4

      It may be indicative that he headed out for booze. Obviously we don't know in this particular case – but once you have several thousand people in quarantine there will be quite a number with significant substance dependency issues. It is showing just how difficult mass quarantine is. Though Toddy did indicate a while back that it's all simple – and he has 'business experience' so he must be right eh?

      And what Observer said at 21 below.

    • Pingao 20.5

      How about we just dunk all returnees in orange dye that wears off in, say, 18 days.

      • Just Is 20.5.1

        Penalising all returnees isn't really a good option when you consder that the percentage of escapees to the number of retunees is extremely low

        0.005%

    • Gabby 20.6

      Sounds like some libertarian alky prick who's not gunna be told wadda do by nobuddy. He better pay for the damaged tv. Wanker.

  19. observer 21

    I know we all love easy, instant solutions, but they don't make good policy. Here is some relevant info from today's 1 pm briefing (Chris Hipkins):

    – The Hamilton man is in police custody. He is due to appear in court later today.

    – He tested negative for his day 3 test, after arriving from Sydney on 1 July.

    Now, consider this. EVERY proposal about bubbles, opening borders, international students (etc) includes the idea that we can test people before they get on a plane. "Oh, make them have a test, and if it's negative, all good." Then we test them again when they arrive. That is the "safeguard" offered by everybody that says we should be gradually opening up.

    This guy in Hamilton had a negative test. He's been here 9 or 10 days. Therefore, this one person breaking the rules means nothing, because we should be admitting thousands more like him. He has been tested. It was negative.

    That is the reality of every – repeat, EVERY proposal to open up. Even a cautious, test and trace opening.

    You either isolate or you don't. If we do, and ten escape, that is bad. If we don't, thousands escape. And their tests don't mean shit.

  20. Draco T Bastard 22

    With National in self-imposed collapse has Rio Tinto read the writing on the wall?

    In a statement to the Australian Stock Exchange, the company said its strategic review had "shown the business is no longer viable given high energy costs and a challenging outlook for the aluminium industry."

    The company has given Meridian Energy notice to terminate its power contract, which ends in August next year. It expects the wind-down of operations will be done by then.

    It said it had had discussions with interested parties but could not secure a power contract that would have kept the smelter competitive and profitable.

    Which is pretty much what they said last time and National came to their rescue with even more subsidies.

    “We do believe that nothing has been left on the table but if we’re mistaken then the window is still available for a deal to be put on the table but the window for that is closing fast now that we have terminated our electricity contract with Meridian.

    “We’ve got 1000 Southland people, good Southland people, who have been walking through our gates every day to produce some of the highest purity … aluminium in the world and it’s extremely disappointing that we couldn’t have achieved an outcome that will let us continue to keep operating.

    So, that wold be the plea for more subsides from the government.

  21. observer 23

    Anyway, there's a bit of news around today, eh?

    Memo to Roy Morgan: your latest poll is due, can you hold off until next week? Don’t want it buried …

    • Just Is 23.1

      Next week may turn out to be even worse for the National Party, this whole thing could completely unravel before their very eyes.

      Lets hope

  22. Whispering Kate 24

    These absconders may have underlying addiction/mental health issues. Alcohol addiction, nicotine addiction, phobias such as being 'hindered' from being able to just be free and not held back from doing whatever. Drugs are freely available in the world and cheap as well in some countries. Are they being drug tested as some may be hanging out and wanting to get out to score. Apparently there was a disturbance in one of the hotels and police had to go in on two occasions to one person who was 'unhinged" and being stroppy and it was disclosed he/she had mental health issues.

    Maybe a health check, blood tests done to see what is circulating in their systems once they get to their hotels so that if there is a substance reliance occurring they could be given the required medication for whatever they need to keep them docile for their stay. This health check could be written into their contract, as a condition for getting home to NZ prior to getting on the plane.

    Its strange though that this absconding is only just happening now. One person does it and it becomes contagious and others want to do it too. Cutting through a fence is a sign of desperation though and that could be a booze/drug problem.

  23. observer 25

    So anyway, turns out the Hamilton guy arrived from Sydney, and is from Queenstown, and is in custody.

    So that's 3 separate knee-jerk talking points demolished … NSW bubble, bloody foreigners, and wet bus ticket.

    It's as if armchair reckons won't solve everything after all.

  24. Fireblade 26

    288 new cases of Covid-19 reported in Victoria today. sad

    26 linked to known outbreaks, 262 under investigation and none linked to returned travelers.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/covidliveau/status/1281434824696201216

  25. Gabby 27

    How long before ScoMoFo declares any kiwis testing positive are to be deported?

  26. observer 28

    RNZ report on Hamilton booze buyer … my emphasis added:

    "Police told the court that McVicar had been non-compliant while in isolation.

    Community Magistrate Robyn Paterson said McVicar had been warned about his behaviour last Friday but then absconded on Thursday evening.

    She said he had been particularly difficult to deal with in isolation and described his political beliefs as strong. …

    She refused bail and remanded him in custody without plea to reappear in the Hamilton District Court on 15 July."

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/420941/man-charged-over-leaving-hamilton-isolation-facility-named

    • Gabby 28.1

      The gnatsys may have found their new candidate for Southland..

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 28.2

      " described his political beliefs as strong. … "

      What's the bet he favours personal liberty at the expense of the wellbeing of the wider community…which side of politics is that likely to be now?

      • AB 28.2.1

        TV1 news described him as a "Queenstown businessman" – which was enough to suggest everything you say, and more.

        • Treetop 28.2.1.1

          Is the mattress not up to his liking or does he want a bigger and better window view than anyone else and is the food to plain?

          Maybe a billboard. NZ has eliminated community transmission and all New Zealander citizens and residents like it that way.

  27. ianmac 29

    A man has been arrested at an Auckland Covid-19 isolation hotel after allegedly becoming abusive at staff.

    It comes amid a turbulent week at similar facilities across the country, as three people face charges for absconding.

    Auckland Police Superintendent Steve Kehoe said on Monday night a 21-year-old man who was in managed isolation at a hotel in Māngere was arrested after he allegedly became abusive to staff.

    The Ministry of Health confirmed to the Herald it was at Naumi Hotel, Auckland Airport.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12347182

    In custody till Tuesday.

    • observer 29.1

      It's shambolic! Why is Jacinda allowing people she's never met and has no control over to be abusive to staff?

      Vote National and nobody in NZ will ever be abusive again, because Todd gets things done.

      • swordfish 29.1.1

        .
        He's the kind of hard-living no-nonsense Maverick who gets the job done by cutting corners and bucking authority … and if those namby-pamby desk-sucking pen-pushers on the 9th floor of the Beehive don't like it then, Mister, they can just about swivel like a pig on this mid-digit.

        Who’s the Oppo Leader who doesn’t give a frick
        He’s a sex machine to all the chicks ?
        Muller ?
        Damn right !!!

        Who’s the cat that won’t cop out when there is danger all about ?
        Muller ?
        Right on, Motherfucker !!!

  28. weka 30

    Does anyone have a link to a good write up on what quarantine is like from the occupants perspective? What they are allowed to do, but also what their experience is like?

    • Anne 30.1

      Various inmates (for want of a better word) have commented on social media and to the media in general, and they seem appreciative of the way they are looked after by staff. They understand the necessity for the rules and are happy to abide by them.

      The handful of exceptions are either grossly ignorant or they have underlying problems.

      • weka 30.1.1

        stress, mental health issues, addiction, loneliness all come to mind as being pretty hard to manage in quarantine.

        • McFlock 30.1.1.2

          Well, yeah – like for everyone who lived alone under level 4.

          Here's a guy talking about doing it in April.

          • weka 30.1.1.2.1

            Under level four we were allowed to go outside. It's not quite the same. I would have thought L4 might have given us a bit more tolerance for how people manage stress.

            • weka 30.1.1.2.1.1

              Also, L4 at home vs confined to a hotel room eating what you are given. It's not a huge hardship relative to many things, but it's not nothing either. My thinking is mostly around if there are gaps eg people needing to self medicate with alcohol and not being able to.

            • McFlock 30.1.1.2.1.2

              Under level 4 many people couldn't go outside for as long as the mandated breaks this crowd have.

              They have a smoking area, and at least one person said she had access to alcohol (but not massive amounts).

              And we did it for longer than a fortnight.

              This isn't an alien situation that most of us can't understand – we all experienced something in that ballpark. People in mansions with spare rooms and large gardens maybe had it less, but they were still restricted. And some of us in small dwellings probably have less square footage than some decent hotel rooms.

              Two weeks is tough. We know. Because most of us did it three tiimes in a row.

              • weka

                Why couldn't L4 people go outside?

                • McFlock

                  essential-only, remember? The folk in hotels get exercise sessions, and so did we, but we weren't supposed to be wandering on the beach cos we felt like it.

                  And that's not getting into specific circumstances, like maybe a "walk around the block" isn't an option for some people.

        • Treetop 30.1.1.3

          A 24 hr hotline for people in isolation or in quarantine free of charge.

          • weka 30.1.1.3.1

            I'm curious what support people are offered by the MoH. I know some people had a hard time in L4, I think this is worse.

            • Treetop 30.1.1.3.1.1

              Some sort of resource kit so a person can have some control over their situation.

              Without looking up the name change and over a decade imprisonment. Some years back I saw some footage on David Bain on how he got through the time he spent in prison.

              "All I had to worry about was the next 5 minutes."

              I have applied this in my own life when I have been very overwhelmed or have felt very badly treated.

              It has worked for me with some medical procedures/issues and personal set backs.

      • maggieinnz 30.1.2

        Yes, I've seen mostly positive reports too. I know a lot of people struggled during lockdown (note: not the current managed isolation) but it was wonderful to see community efforts to help those with mental health and/or addiction issues go out of their way to help them. Some offered to go shopping for cigarettes and alcohol, some offered to phone for a chat etc. It was really encouraging.

    • The Al1en 30.2

      No link, but this week (or last), there was story in the papers about the lock down woman who grabbed a selfie with the PM. If I remember correctly, she had been blogging about being in quarantine.

      Edit: https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/07/covid-19-woman-blogging-about-quarantine-ecstatic-as-she-meets-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-upon-arrival-in-wellington.html

  29. mary_a 31

    Not so long ago National was bleating that Jacinda and Labour were getting too much media coverage.

    They can't complain now, because National has been in the media 24/7 recently and it's very likely to continuelaugh

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