I have been following the discussion following on from redlogix post on DV. The broken post and men dominate discussion post.
I thought RL post brave and honest and an invitation to explore a dark underside to our beautiful country.
This opportunity was lost when it turned into a bun fight.
Offence can only be offered.
I value most contributors here, either being informed or forgiving as they know not what they do.
As with all communities you are gonna get folk that are harder to like and that is one of the strengths of this site.
I actually like Red for the most part so honestly for me it’s the politics not a personality thing.
If any man wants to write about domestic violence issues from a male perspective I will welcome that if they can do so without running MRA-like lines or trying to undermine women or feminism. If they want to run those lines then they need to be prepared for a fight, because women are having to deal with that stuff at the cutting edge in ways that many people here are unaware of, and there are real world consequences for women from what Red was saying. Until that awareness changes it will always be a conflict.
btw, I didn’t see it as a bun fight and I’ve been in quite a few gender convos on ts in the past. I saw a whole lot of people step up in Red’s thread and disagree clearly and with good political argument. Haven’t read much of Tracey’s thread yet though.
Men’s Rights Activists. A political movement which focuses on some issues that affect men but does so in the context of attacking and undermining feminism and women. It tends to reject political analysis of systemic oppression and instead tries to make out that men aren’t affored privilege and power by the patriarchal systems that we live in.
For example, the idea that domestic violence isn’t gendered, that men get beaten too, therefore domestic violence is a human violence issue, not a male violence issue. It ignores the reasons why by far the most domestic violence is done by men against women, and the reasons underlying that that are societal and structural. It sets up strawmen such as the idea that domestic violence is gendered comes from feminists thinking all men are violent or somehow bad, when in fact feminism doesn’t say that. It then uses those strawmen to push theories that don’t hold men accountable as a class.
that men get beaten too, therefore domestic violence is a human violence issue, not a male violence issue.
Logically that does not follow. Or do feminists not consider men to be human?
It ignores the reasons why by far the most domestic violence is done by men against women
Not a strong statement given the many, many studies that confirm women perpetrate all manner of abuse and violence, and it is probably more due to a weakness of limb than purity of heart that holds them back from achieving equally bad statistics with men.
But I can see why this framing is important to you and I’m not going to disrespect that.
and the reasons underlying that that are societal and structural.
Not much quibble on that in general. Agreed.
It sets up strawmen such as the idea that domestic violence is gendered comes from feminists thinking all men are violent or somehow bad
OK so not all men are abusers.
It then uses those strawmen to push theories that don’t hold men accountable as a class.
But now we all are and you’re going to punish us all for it.
At least that is how I read it; maybe you’d care to clarify?
“Not a strong statement given the many, many studies that confirm women perpetrate all manner of abuse and violence, and it is probably more due to a weakness of limb than purity of heart that holds them back from achieving equally bad statistics with men.”
is where your problem lies.
Or perhaps this particular bit “and it is probably more”
and remember the above was in response to
“It ignores the reasons why by far the most domestic violence is done by men against women”
You cannot see the “by far” qualifier – you are blinded to it – perhaps by the abuse you suffered or maybe some other reason but the qualifier is there imo so that debate CAN occur not as a poke to get you to retaliate – which is how I interpret your response to weka’s sentence.
Can you understand what I am saying?
Can you see that I am NOT attacking you?
Can you see that your response was disproportionate to the sentence that you responded to?
Can you see how that could escalate the intensity or heat of the discussion?
That is just one example – I ask you to seriously consider your emotions around this, your judgments about yourself and others, and what you want to achieve from this.
I wrote it Xanthe so believe me I don’t need to read it again. Sure it may not be dialogue (I could argue that but I’ll accept it), but it came from a place of compassion and genuine desire on my part to add something positive to the situation. Is that violence to you?
Marty ” Can you see that your response was disproportionate to the sentence that you responded to?
Can you see how that could escalate the intensity or heat of the discussion?”
Because you find the reasonable suggestion that we look for the underlieing drivers of domestic violence rather than treating it as a male problem ….. uncomfortable and challenging
you attack and place the blame for that attack on the way he presented the suggestion.
That is both disingenuous and a form of violence
As you well know!
I have considerable experience of bullying. I know it when it happens
Spot on marty, the quailifier is the thing that makes the position inclusive.
Red, in the past week I’ve made a few comments as to why I won’t engage on the content of your post or comments. I’ll add another one. Every step of the way I have seen you misuse and IMO willfully misinterpret other people’s arguments. Here is a classic example that is very easy to see. You just selectively misquoted me. That alone will stop me from talking to you on the content.
Unlike most responses I get, I went to the trouble of carefully requoting your comment, pretty much sentence by sentence so as it was clear what I was talking about and the dialog might flow better.
Then I made a response to pretty much ALL of what you said. I was lot less selective about it than most people are. The bit I mostly left out was your first para because I didn’t have any issue with it. Ironically enough it wasn’t until you used the MRA acronym in a comment to me a while back did I even know what it was either.
So I went and took a look and while there are some interesting ideas there, there’s also a lot that isn’t attractive at all. Unlike what you seem to think I’m no fan of the MRA scene because they seem locked into a confrontational mode of action that’s a complete dead end.
But now you are unhappy because you feel I willfully misquoted you. Geeze how do you think I feel after the shitstorm of misrepresentation and unmitigated personal abuse I’ve been on the wrong end the past few days? Really … I don’t ask that question rhetorically.
I repeat; “At least that is how I read it; maybe you’d care to clarify?”
Red, you selectively quoted me. I’ve then told you that you’ve mis quoted me. Are you trying to tell me that I don’t know what my own comment meant and intended?
You cannot see the “by far” qualifier – you are blinded to it
Actually, it seems to be you who is blinded by it. Studies show that women and men commit similar amounts of violence and abuse. The violence by men causes far more physical damage than that done by women and so we hear more of it but that doesn’t mean that violence by women doesn’t happen at close to the same rate.
My response to that is for men to start being active around solving the issues of violence against them without trying to undo the work that women have done. It’s actually not that hard an approach. The problem comes when men want to deny the structural issues that exist because of the patriarchal system (or whatever we want to call it) and how that system privileges people differently. I get that men don’t want to be blamed, but that’s a different thing than saying that each gender is just as violent as the other. The dynamics are different and I think the one thing we can assume here is that women see violence as a different thing than what you are suggesting, so there is a power struggle right there. Because women have been working on violence within a system that automaticaly affords them less power, they’re not going to respond well to yet another attempt to disempower them.
It may just be better(more) communication but it seems that violence (from all sources) is increasing.
It is tempting to draw a correlation with the increasing economic inequality that is occuring
Ie is the underlieing driver of all violence is economic violence
(Not saying it is or isnt , just seeing if this model gives useful insight that could help prevent or forwarn of instances of violence)
Draco, there are only a few hundred female prisoners in NZ, at a reasonable guess there are in the region of 20 times as many men in jail. That doesn’t marry up with your similar levels of violence thing.
‘Women are as likely to perpetrate domestic violence as men’. This one came up in the recent BBC documentary about ‘The Rise of Female Violence’, though to its marginal credit, the beeb only claimed this for ‘low level domestic violence’. First of all, we shouldn’t assume that if women perpetrate domestic violence, it’s always against men — some women have relationships with people of other genders too (and we don’t celebrate violence in those relationships either, especially as there is a real dearth of specialist service provision for survivors of domestic violence who are LGBTQ— which are also in fact the services that men experiencing domestic violence are most likely to need [1]). Furthermore, when women do commit ‘low level domestic violence’, it’s usually either self-defence or ‘co-violence’ — women are sole perpetrators in less than 4% of reported incidents [2]. This leads on to the next myth that needs to be debunked.
I find it interesting that men want to argue that women are as violent as men just in a less violent way. Which just comes across as self-serving mansplaining. I’m open the conversation happening in a different way, but given the whole point about power and how it gets given and used I’m not settling for a conversation where men come in and say Labour does it too.
The authors of the American CTS studies stress that no matter what the rate of violence or who initiates the violence, women are 7 to 10 times more likely to be injured in acts of intimate violence than are men [Orman, 1998]. Husbands have higher rates of the most dangerous and injurious forms of violence, their violent acts are repeated more often, they are less likely to fear for their own safety, and women are financially and socially locked into marriage to a much greater extent than men. In fact, Straus expresses his concern that “the statistics are likely to be misused by misogynists and apologists for male violence” [cited in Orman, 1998].
I’m far less interested in exhanging internet links than I am in having a real conversation about violence. I don’t see this happening and that’s because of how Red framed it at the start.
Yes, which people are convicted does give an insight into who commits violence in this land. We do not have a dirty secret of abuse equivalent to the scale of the Catholic Church but committed by mothers, aunties and sisters in this country. Unless you can show me that we do?
@ maui
The fact there are far more male prisoners than female prisoners is irrelevant. Men tend to commit more physical and sex-related violence and it is reflected in the prison rate. Women on the other hand tend to use other means of violence and intimidation that are harder to prove because they are often carried out in a clandestine manner. And even when some form of direct physical violence is present, it is often the male victim who ends up being treated like the suspect. As a result there is far less reporting of violent acts by women against men.
Anne, that sounds like a story to me. Equally I can tell you a story that women don’t go to the police to report the abuse they and their kids suffer. Now which story sounds more like real life to you? And which is more relevant to exposing domestic violence in NZ. Where are the reformed female abusers who are sharing their story to the public because it needs some sunlight?
Thank-you for insulting me maui. I don’t make up stories. I suggest you read Draco below who has linked to what I am sure is peer removed research.
You have attempted to conflate one issue with another in order to prove a point – whatever precisely it may be. We are talking in general terms about the level of violence perpetrated by men and woman alike. If you are not prepared to accept that men can be equally victims of violence too then that is an indictment on your closed mind. The terrible abuse some women and children have been forced to suffer – often over long periods of time – is not being refuted by anyone here. All some of us are trying to point out is that women can also inflict serious damage to their partners. Indeed they can inflict serious damage on other individuals too which is something I can testify to.
For your information it took me 10 years to recover from what was done to me. I had to start from scratch… rebuild my life… my confidence and self esteem… and the hardest lesson of all was learning to trust people again.
Thanks to all of you who stand up for reason and honesty.
It will prevail eventually
Those locked into their self serving prejudice ….. i hope you can find grace somewhere, in the meanwhile i really hope no one lets you anywhere near any potential domestic conflict. You potentially can cause real harm.
I should let DtB answer for himself, but the answer to your question seems to be embedded in his comment already:
he violence by men causes far more physical damage than that done by women and so we hear more of it
Also even when women do cause serious harm, it’s rarely reported. Many men on the wrong end of it don’t even begin to frame it as abuse. And when we do, it’s often not taken seriously, we run a high risk of being falsely accused as perpetrators and get no serious support.
To repeat, yes men are stronger and cause more damage. Everyone fully expects that at least 70% of the serious damage and harm will be done by men. But I maintain that discrepancy more a consequence of biology than sociology. (Maybe there lies the crux of our disagreement.)
The term ‘patriarchy’ while useful at one time has become another barrier. As many people have already said, in the bigger picture patriarchy harms men almost as much as it does women. It’s more about social hierarchy, gross inequality and unjust exploitation than it is about gender. It forms the basis of the greed based, unconstrained capitalism that oppresses virtually all of humanity in pretty much equal measure.
Again feminism has a LOT of interesting and vital things to say about patriarchy, but decoupling the concept from gender might well lower the barrier to more people accepting it. Maybe we need a new word for it.
Quick synopsis of the clip: Turangi midwife sees 50% of client mothers in domestic violence situations. So taking this into account, from your world view this would mean pregnant women instigating attacks from their partners. Or solely pregnant women being the ones inflicting damage on their male partners. I can’t reconcile that I’m sorry, and I can’t think of anyone I know in real life who would make those assumptions either.
I can’t do the video, but your synopsis doesn’t surprise me. Pregnancy is a time of heightened emotions for both partners, that often catalyses both the best and worst for each of them.
In my experience (and it’s only from a sample of one) pregnancy stimulates some very deep and primitive instincts in the mother. Unless you are prepared for them, or at least are confident enough as a man to deal with them, they can be very confronting. Cause can never stand in for excuse, but it’s exactly the kind of thing I have in mind when I’m taking about the need to understand root causes better.
Men too react in many subtle and unconscious ways to their partner being pregnant; and most of us are completely unprepared for these intense feelings. So it does not surprise me at all that pregnancy is a time of increased risk of violence. Personally I can think of few things sadder than a young pregnant mother beaten and hurt by her partner … and mostly for reasons that are probably quite avoidable.
But of course most women are not pregnant all their lives; which in real life is time enough.
What that video says is that there is something going on in very economically depressed Turangi which the health and law enforcement authorities need to get to the bottom of.
The health authorities are very much aware of the issue, have people who know about the issues on the ground (like midwives) and reformed male abusers and they do campaigns on addressing the issue. A pity there’s a sub section of society who have alternate theories on what the health issue is, a bit like the beliefs of climate deniers I might add.
Research showing that women are often aggressors in domestic violence has been causing controversy for almost 40 years, ever since the 1975 National Family Violence Survey by sociologists Murray Straus and Richard Gelles of the Family Research Laboratory at the University of New Hampshire found that women were just as likely as men to report hitting a spouse and men were just as likely as women to report getting hit. The researchers initially assumed that, at least in cases of mutual violence, the women were defending themselves or retaliating. But when subsequent surveys asked who struck first, it turned out that women were as likely as men to initiate violence—a finding confirmed by more than 200 studies of intimate violence. In a 2010 review essay in the journal Partner Abuse, Straus concludes that women’s motives for domestic violence are often similar to men’s, ranging from anger to coercive control.
I should have been more clear and said similar amounts of domestic violence.
And then there’s this bit:
For the most part, feminists’ reactions to reports of female violence toward men have ranged from dismissal to outright hostility. Straus chronicles a troubling history of attempts to suppress research on the subject, including intimidation of heretical scholars of both sexes and tendentious interpretation of the data to portray women’s violence as defensive. In the early 1990s, when laws mandating arrest in domestic violence resulted in a spike of dual arrests and arrests of women, battered women’s advocates complained that the laws were “backfiring on victims,” claiming that women were being punished for lashing back at their abusers. Several years ago in Maryland, the director and several staffers of a local domestic violence crisis center walked out of a meeting in protest of the showing of a news segment about male victims of family violence. Women who have written about female violence, such as Patricia Pearson, author of the 1997 book When She Was Bad: Violent Women and the Myth of Innocence, have often been accused of colluding with an anti-female backlash.
Can I ask for clarification weka? Specifically on this bit “…the idea that domestic violence isn’t gendered, that men get beaten too, therefore domestic violence is a human violence issue, not a male violence issue”
Are you claiming that if one was to say that domestic violence is a human violence issue, that just by saying that, political analysis of systemic oppression is ‘rubbished’? Or are you meaning to say that it can and sometimes is used in that way?
I think that MRA-like arguments I have read say that it’s not a gender issue/ it’s a human issue as part and parcel of trying to negate the idea that the patriarchal system is a real thing that affects men and women differently (they also seem to be doing the same kind of strawman thing there by saying that feminism claims that the analyses of the patriarchy mean that women think men are all to blame, at which point its very hard not to start rolling ones eyes).
So yes, if someone wants to discuss domestic violence within the context of how humans are violent in general, that’s not a problem. But if they want to mistate feminist theory and then try and use that to support their position and undermine feminism, I say fuck off. Or if they want to misuse research, statistics and analyses of social dymanics, same thing.
gsays and weka – I’ve been enjoying (not sure that’s the right word – stimulated maybe – perhaps “reminded” and “activated” might be more correct ) by the Broken and Men Dominate discussions ), and I appreciated Red Logix’s comments – even if they were being offered in a context which might not have been appropriate.
We all have our different life experiences – some are more painful than others – and what I have learned thru those, is that you can never tell what someone else has been through, even if they’re looking and sounding okay. So – along with an understanding that not everyone can express themselves as well as they’d like, then maybe a degree of tolerance is required.
This sounds ideal, but is very difficult to put into practice. And somehow its easier to be dismissive of people on The Standard and other blogs, and on Facebook, rather than face-to-face in real life. I’m not very good at it, either.
Shit – I hope this doesn’t sound patronising . From an older age point-of-view. Not meant to be.
Just saying – these have been stimulating discussions, and they’ve brought up a lot of memories – good and bad.
And I wanted to comment on the anonymity thing as well – I started out on The Standard being anonymous. But – I’m now old enough (getting towards ancient), not sure if I’m tough enough – but decided it didn’t matter any more – so became the real me.
But I’m sure the real me is a lot nicer in writing, than the REAL me is !
hi jenny, i have been extremely fortunate not to have been a victim of violence.
i also have been close to some folk who have been in extremely unhealthy relationships, ranging from the psychological ‘water on a rock’ type abuse through to the serious hospitalizing because of assault.
it is hard to act, to act appropriately and effectively without isolating the victim further from support.
especially with the smaller incidents, the precurser events.
re pseudonyms, i picked this tag when i started commenting as, to my eyes, back then most folk on ts had them.
i find if someone is a dick or trolling, i just ignore them.
also want to add, i like the more vigorous moderating. stopping distracters and trolls.
i like dissenting opinions as it makes me look closer at what i believe, but some of these folks are more diversionary.
Hi Jenny, I also found the discussions stimulating and I’m heartened by the fact that they were more civil than usual.
I suppose I’m still wondering if some people don’t fully get what the objection to Red’s post was. Yes it was the context. But it’s also the politics. It’s brave of him to tell his personal story. I have no problem with anyone doing that and I know that most feminists not only support survivors of all genders using their experiences to talk about their politics, but that most feminists have men in their lives and so value men as a class.
What I have a problem with is Red’s politics around gender and violence, and his subsequent arguments that are essentially anti-feminist and underming of the politics of oppression that explains so much of women’s experiences. I have had quite a few conversations with him now over the years about this and I no longer have any tolerance for what he does. He is able to explain himself reasonably well so I don’t think this is an issue of him not being understood. I think it’s an issue of many people rejecting his basic premises (eg the biology arguments, tha idea that domestic violence isn’t gendered, his very poor understanding of what feminism is and does). Those basic premises get criticised and then he tries to defend them, and in amongst all that his story gets mixed up. But the story of what happened to him isn’t the problem, it’s how he is using that to inform his politics that is.
I will always support people to be able to talk about their experiences. But you are right, I have zero tolerance for people then using those to underpin some pretty abhorrent politics esp where those politics actively harm others. I’m not dismissive of Red (him and I have talked all sort of politics over the years), but I am now pretty dismissive of his gender politics. Much of that is due to the fact that it is such a waste of time and a huge distraction to have to argue about things that are fundamentall agin to progressive politics. We have urgent gender issues to work on, many of us have been working on them for a very long time, and the kinds of ideas that Red is pushing are part of a bigger agenda to undermine women and many of the gains made in recent decades.
” But the story of what happened to him isn’t the problem, it’s how he is using that to inform his politics that is.”
Thanks Weka for the clarification re Red L and his gender politics – I hadn’t registered his previous comments on those issues – maybe I just misssed them because of other interesting discussions going on elsewhere.
I don’t think we’ve had any of those big gender discussions for a quite a while. In the past they’ve been ugly, so it was good to see this one relatively straight forward.
” Much of that is due to the fact that it is such a waste of time and a huge distraction to have to argue about things that are fundamentall agin to progressive politics. ”
This neatly sums up why “progressive politics” is stalled, meanwhile we all career to distruction.
The inevitable outcome of the use of factionalisation as a campaigning tool is that you create a pool of voters that vote against you.
When you entwine that with environmental and fairness issues you do real harm.
Its sad
Ok i am settling on naive
If you are unaware of the factionalisation of the “progressive parties” and the inevitable result large scale voter turn off then i dont see how i am going to convince you.
really? .. you really dont get this?
Positive discrimination is an oxymoron, discrimination is wrong whatever the cause
I know it, you know it, and a majority of voters know it
So i guess you will tell me it isn’t happening? But if it looks like a duck , quacks like a duck, and craps everywhere , most people will see a duck.
That is not in any way to detract from the realities of the many and increasing inequalities we live with. just to make the point that a just cause dosn’t make wrong right and you do more harm than good if you act like it does!
“If you are unaware of the factionalisation of the “progressive parties” and the inevitable result large scale voter turn off then i dont see how i am going to convince you.”
I’m simply asking you to explain what YOU mean by those things, so there can be clear communication. I could guess what you mean, but honestly, if you can’t be bothered with communicating well I don’t see why I should either.
I don’t understand your comments either, Xanthe, re factionalisation of left parties. Can you clarify what you mean by this word – factionalisation please, and how does it occur ?
Perhaps an example would help.
Hi jenny
the purpose of governance is to find the best solutions for all, the purpose of elections or appointments either in government or within political parties is to appoint those who will best serve all.
Factionalisation occurs when candidates present as representing the interest of some demographic (gender, race, age, religion, idiology, whatever) and those demographs vote for the candidate that will best further the interest of that demograph.
It seems harmless enought but it is actually an unethical abuse of the democratic process, a bit around the edges does little harm, when it becomes the dominant feature of party or government the purpose of government and democracy is lost
that is quite significantly were the “progressive parties” are at
anti-feminist and underming of the politics of oppression that explains so much of women’s experiences.
I agree that my view does not line up with the usual feminist conventions. Although to be quite plain, feminism itself seems to have so many interpretations it’s not simple to conform to one linear narrative anymore.
Having said that, I’ll paraphrase what I’ve said before, that feminism has played a vital role in identifying and making visible the issue of dv. In that sense I’m hardly ‘anti-feminist’ … or whatever that is supposed to mean.
Really my view boils down to this. By placing most of it’s focus on the visible story of male violence on women and children the standard feminist narrative has become a hindrance to progress. I point to the flat-lining statistics that seem to be as bad as ever they were. We aren’t making progress and I think we need to look closer at the reasons why.
It is plain as day that the so called ‘gender wars’ have factionalised men and women against each other. That isn’t my doing, it’s just obvious after a few passes around the net. I think that is a hindrance. We will only solve this problem if men and women trust each other and help each other through this.
My approach is to treat the underlying root causes of intimate partner violence as a gender neutral, human problem that is aimed at understanding the drivers of behaviour and avoids blame.
And I think I can mostly say I’ve never been openly dismissive of your views weka. Not like you are now.
“In that sense I’m hardly ‘anti-feminist’ … or whatever that is supposed to mean.”
That’s right, you don’t know what I, as a feminist, mean. And until you are willing to take the time to learn that, I’m not longer willing to debate content with you on this topic.
“And I think I can mostly say I’ve never been openly dismissive of your views weka. Not like you are now.”
Maybe, but my memory over multiple conversations is that you routinely avoided dealing directly with the arguments pointing out the problems in what you are presenting. So it’s not as overt, but your dismissal is still there. And it’s horrible to debate with. I’ve reach my limit, so I’m making my dismissal overt.
As I’ve said, I have very good reasons for not engaging in debating the content of your post or comments. I’m not the only one that feels like it’s a waste of time and/or a big distraction.
Weka, I agree that RL did politicise his post and use some unfortunate stereotypes, but the thing that did strike me about the whole thread was the fact that males in abusive relationships are just told to get out of the relationship, that is your only option. Imagine if that is the only advice we gave females in abusive relationships, it’s simply not that easy.
There is no refuge available for men, retaliation is not and should never be an option and to my knowledge there are no support groups available to abused men. In fact, NZ’s Domestic Violence support groups openly exclude and even blame men:
“Every year, Shine directly helps thousands of adult and child victims of domestic abuse to be safer, and we motivate hundreds of men that hurt their families to change their behaviour” http://www.2shine.org.nz/how-shine-helps/shine-services
“Women’s Refuge is a key national organisation working to end domestic violence towards women and children” https://womensrefuge.org.nz/
Ad offered a useful statistic in the first comment of RL’s post:
“In the four years from 2009 to 2012, 76% of intimate partner violence-related deaths were perpetrated by men, 24% were perpetrated by women: http://areyouok.org.nz/family-violence/statistics/”
Without trying to politicise the issue further, how do you see a way forward if we are not willing to look at the issue in a gender neutral way? Do we just accept that a quarter of intimate partner violence-related deaths are caused by men not getting out of the relationship in time?
This has ended up being a lot more confrontational than I originally set out to be. Please don’t take any of this as an attack on you, or as trying to diminish the work that AreYouOk and Womens Refuge do. I am simply trying to point out that while RL may have made some unfortunate statements in his post, his story equally needed to be told and the taboo of female-against-male domestic violence does need to be addressed.
Just to clarify a little further Bob. When I mention the topic of female on male abuse (which only some of which is physical) … I’m absolutely not trying to make any kind of Labour did it too argument. One form of abuse in no sense diminishes any other.
And it was my experience that the underlying causes of dv are shared by both genders, and this shapes my approach to the topic.
“Weka, I agree that RL did politicise his post and use some unfortunate stereotypes, but the thing that did strike me about the whole thread was the fact that males in abusive relationships are just told to get out of the relationship, that is your only option. Imagine if that is the only advice we gave females in abusive relationships, it’s simply not that easy.”
Women do still get told that. In the past they got told that a lot. The reason they have more options today is because they organised.
There is no refuge available for men, retaliation is not and should never be an option and to my knowledge there are no support groups available to abused men.
The reason why women have services is because they organised. We didn’t get them handed to us on a plate. We got together under pretty difficult circumstances and created those services ourselves until others like the govt were willing to step in and help too. We are still hugely underfunded relative to many other aspects of NZ society, including ones that men not only benefit from but control the funding for.
In fact, NZ’s Domestic Violence support groups openly exclude and even blame men:
“Every year, Shine directly helps thousands of adult and child victims of domestic abuse to be safer, and we motivate hundreds of men that hurt their families to change their behaviour”
Yes, men need to be held accountable for when they hurt other people. What does that have to do with men who are victims?
Ad offered a useful statistic in the first comment of RL’s post:
“In the four years from 2009 to 2012, 76% of intimate partner violence-related deaths were perpetrated by men, 24% were perpetrated by women: http://areyouok.org.nz/family-violence/statistics/”
I won’t look at links or stats that Red provides without a very good reason, because I reject his basic premise. All other times I have looked at arguments that say lots of women abuse men, it’s led to some pretty dodgy, already refuted research. I’m not going to waste my time because I don’t trust Red’s judgement on this. If someone whose gender politics I respect posts somethign I will look at it.
Without trying to politicise the issue further, how do you see a way forward if we are not willing to look at the issue in a gender neutral way?
We’re already making progress. This is one of Red’s basic premises that I reject (that we haven’t achieved anything useful).
Do we just accept that a quarter of intimate partner violence-related deaths are caused by men not getting out of the relationship in time?
ok, now I’m confused. Are you talking about men who abuse, or men who are being abused, or men who are both? Or what? It would help if you were clearer. I get that the situations are complex, and we need to take time to communicate clearly what we mean.
This has ended up being a lot more confrontational than I originally set out to be. Please don’t take any of this as an attack on you, or as trying to diminish the work that AreYouOk and Womens Refuge do. I am simply trying to point out that while RL may have made some unfortunate statements in his post, his story equally needed to be told and the taboo of female-against-male domestic violence does need to be addressed.
I actually don’t care what Red wrote in his post, because I’ve seen it all before. It’s not just that he makes unfortunately statements, it’s that his politics are based on premises that many progressive people reject, and he is aligning himself with groups that are actively harming feminism, women and society.
And let’s be clear here. He also is promoting a false dichotomy between the existing situation as he perceives it ie that seeing domestic violence as gendered is harming men and inhibiting change, and the idea that we can only do wright by men by abandoning that. It comes across as feminism is wrong about this and we need to look at men’s needs by underming what they are doing. It’s just bullshit. And it’s a serious problem here on the left because I don’t see any feminists supporting what he says (so if you want to ask where we would go, trying figuring out how to move somewhere after you have just said that feminism is wrong).
Here’s what I would respect,
Domestic violence overwhemingly affects women and is perpetrated by men, so we need to look at how women can be protected and men can be expected to change.
In addition to that, there are men who are being harmed by women, and we need to look at why that is happening, and protect them and get those women to change too.
In addition to that, humans don’t fit neatly into binary gender or heterosexuality, so we need to pay attention to those cultures and what their needs are around violence.
All of the above is an inclusive model. Feminism will support men organising to address violence against them. They won’t support that if it’s being done by underming feminism.
(aside, because this apparently needs spelling out, “Feminism will…” is me shorthanding and generalising as a way of not writing a novel. Like every other progressive movement, there are many expressions of feminism and many ways that feminists are active and see themselves. That’s not a problem).
Edit, I’ll also say that there is no taboo from me on talking about domestic violence against men, nor from most feminists I know. There is appropriate time and place, but in general, most feminism wants men to be well too. I would welcome posts and discussion about this topic on ts. I won’t tolerate that being done in a regressive and repressive MRA-like way. There are other, constructive ways to approach this. Red isn’t the one to do it.
It’s important to look further behind the statistics quoted above (e.g. 24% of intimate partner violence-related (IPV) deaths were perpetrated by women against men), which tend to underestimate the magnitude and effect of domestic violence perpetrated against women.
From the report provided on the areyouok website, when examining the deaths according to domestic violence history within the relationship, 93% of all the IPV deaths involved female primary victims, and 96% involved male predominant aggressors (page 41 of the report).
Of the deaths perpetrated by women, 83% were classified “Female primary victim/suspected primary victim kills male predominant aggressor”, and 17% as “Female predominant aggressor kills male/female primary victim”.
So, in most cases women perpetrating IPV deaths were primary victims themselves.
Also, just want to say thank you to Weka for your insightful and considerate comments regarding IPV and all gender-related subjects! This is a hard area to read as a lurker, let alone comment on, but so important, so I really appreciate that you continue to fight the fight.
I’m hugely appreciative of what you’ve just posted re the report.
And thanks for the thanks and the reminder of what this is like to be reading. This is why I don’t want to respond to Reds content, it just keeps a politically damaging conversation going. Walking away now.
I also appreciate the effort Weka has put into her comments, patiently trying to educate and explain in the face of some incredible levels of ignorance and misogyny.
I expect it from the right but find it very hard to accept it from the left. Unfortunately my idea of left seemingly does not match many of those commenting on the Standard who claim to be left but still have racist and sexist attitudes that they are not willing to confront.
That’s the weka who says that RL’s judgement on this issue is untrustworthy and that the facts that RL provides aren’t worth following up because they’re probably dodgy?
I suppose RL could be a greater man and not take that shit personally. But it sounds pretty damn personal.
That’s not quite what I said though CV, so there is another example of misrepresenting my position. Here’s what I actually said,
I won’t look at links or stats that Red provides without a very good reason, because I reject his basic premise. All other times I have looked at arguments that say lots of women abuse men, it’s led to some pretty dodgy, already refuted research. I’m not going to waste my time because I don’t trust Red’s judgement on this. If someone whose gender politics I respect posts somethign I will look at it.
I have given analysis over time of why I won’t engage with Red’s content on this topic. That included me saying that I don’t trust his sources because of my experience of arguing with him about this in the past. Other’s a free to follow up his links and make their own decisions.
You don’t like my critique of his politics, fair enough. But I haven’t been abusive. In fact I would day that this whole round of gender politics on ts has been remarkably free from abuse.
There is nothing wrong with me or anyone critiquing Red’s position. We do that on ts every day, why not in this situation?
Every study done in this area has been controversial. And when you drill into the details what you find is that there are essentially three kinds of interaction:
1. One partner inflicts one way abuse on the other
2. One partner initiates, the other responds in self-defence
3. Both parties pretty much go at it hammer and tongs equally
This complicates how we view the situation a lot. When you add in verbal abuse and humiliation it gets even more complex.
which tend to underestimate the magnitude and effect of domestic violence perpetrated against women.
Again no-one wants to minimise the fact that male violence causes more harm. I’ll keep saying this over and over because pixels are free and I can type fast. Your point is redundant, I’ve already emphatically stated it many, many times and yet no-one seems capable of noticing this.
So, in most cases women perpetrating IPV deaths were primary victims themselves.
Yet interestingly when men perpetrate IPV deaths absolutely no defense of provocation or any justification is ever permitted.
But certainly where deaths are concerned, men are the by far the dominant perpetrators, no argument … yet crucially it is not 100%. Women too murder their partners. Same-sex partner violence is also thought to be rising.
This is proof that violence is not totally determined by the fact of gender alone. Abuse occurs on a spectrum, and while males unquestionably dominate the worst end of it, there is no evidence to suggest that women are exempt from their share of it either.
Therefore there must be an underlying root cause that is common to all human experience.
And that just proves – nothing. In fact, it’s moving the goal post from domestic violence to deaths caused by domestic violence. Different category, different measure.
Ummmm, if someone moved the goal posts ’twasnt me – I used the same evidence from the report quoted by Bob, so not sure where this critique comes from.
What I think it illustrates is that you need to have a more indepth knowledge of the figure you are quoting, otherwise you can do more harm than good.
I won’t look at links or stats that Red provides without a very good reason, because I reject his basic premise. All other times I have looked at arguments that say lots of women abuse men, it’s led to some pretty dodgy, already refuted research. I’m not going to waste my time because I don’t trust Red’s judgement on this. If someone whose gender politics I respect posts somethign I will look at it.
You’ve got a smart guy, RL, who has personal experience with DV as a victim, and who is willing to engage with you and with other commentators on TS in an articulate way.
But you know what, fuck that, he’s clearly not trustworthy on this issue because he says things which confront the mental model you’ve built up around DV, and because you believe that your own basic premise is solid enough that you can dismiss him as you already have the answers that you want.
So his entire input and life experience gets *POOOF* invalidated in a single moment – and my input too even though I personally know how violent Kiwi women can be.
Instead, you’ll just create your own definition and own paradigm of what DV affecting males is all about, and the rest of us simply get to buy into it or not.
Well, good luck with that, because both RL and I know that while you, and some of the other women who are commenting on this issue have some of the most important answers and insights, you still only own a fraction of what is required.
All of the above is an inclusive model. Feminism will support men organising to address violence against them. They won’t support that if it’s being done by underming feminism…There is appropriate time and place, but in general, most feminism wants men to be well too. I would welcome posts and discussion about this topic on ts.
The concept that men need or want the support of feminists or feminism in order to change themselves for the better, or that feminists or feminism has any validity in determining or defining what is good for men, or that feminists or feminism can describe what men are lacking and then act to help change the well being of men, is utterly unacceptable.
It is as ridiculous and outrageous as suggesting that women need the support, approval and contribution of men in order to change and improve who they are.
The concept that men need or want the support of feminists or feminism in order to change themselves for the better, or that feminists or feminism has any validity in determining or defining what is good for men, or that feminists or feminism can describe what men are lacking and then act to help change the well being of men, is utterly unacceptable.
Poppycock. This the third time of writing? How can you be a man in this world and not be a feminist?
Also. No-one has berated or challenged reds account of his experience of DV. What is challenged is the deficiency of understanding he exhibits with reference to the underlying drivers of DV. I mean, fuck, he takes the most valuable frame of reference – patriarchy – and just flat out dismisses it. Having dismissed that whole analytical framework out of hand, he then turns to studies and figures, a lot of which are twisted (and discredited) stats produced by overtly misogynistic fucktards to back his assertion that females and males are on some kind of level playing field when it comes to violence. We ain’t!
And that, just in case your entertaining the idea, isn’t me hating on men or projecting any type of self loathing. But I do despise that set of social norms that have grown up and that can be said to reside with the concept of patriarchy. And I despise the way that culture impacts on men and women both directly and indirectly or via intermediaries.
I don’t pretend to know the numbers on this. But I’d be curious to know how many women who abuse their partners were themselves previously subjected to abuse. Because misdirected revenge that springs from events in previous relationships or situations is cause for using the framework of patriarchy to understand why some women are abusing their partners…it’s not a reason to throw the framework away on the grounds that it doesn’t seem to apply to the here and now of a given abusive situation.
mean, fuck, he takes the most valuable frame of reference – patriarchy – and just flat out dismisses it. Having dismissed that whole analytical framework out of hand,
Really?
Well if its such a valuable and powerful frame of reference, then let’s see the highly insightful and effective paths forward that this awesome analytical framework gives our towns and neighbourhoods about DV.
At least with a Marxian analytical framework, the workers are shown real ways out that they can do for themselves.
Its a long thread Bill you may have missed when I said this above at 4:11pm
The term ‘patriarchy’ while useful at one time has become another barrier. As many people have already said, in the bigger picture patriarchy harms men almost as much as it does women. It’s more about social hierarchy, gross inequality and unjust exploitation than it is about gender. It forms the basis of the greed based, unconstrained capitalism that oppresses virtually all of humanity in pretty much equal measure.
Again as I said, feminism has had a LOT of vital and interesting things to say about patriarchy. Really.
But when you read someone like Jared Diamond who neatly traces the origin of it back to the invention of agriculture, the need to defend territory, the need for disposable males as soldiers, the need to control female breeding to have plenty of replacements, the resulting intensification of hierarchy and inequality, economic models based on slavery and exploitation … it all looks more and more like class war than gender war.
Now of course historically feminism has a proud heritage of righting legal and structural inequality that was an inherent part of the slave/serf economies. But in a society where all women can vote, go to work in any job of their choosing, enter any relationship they want, and leave it at their choosing, enter into any legal contract, start any business they want, travel and live pretty much as they wish …. the idea this is a brutal repressive and literal patriarchy doesn’t quite live up to the label any more.
What instead feminism now confronts is male behaviour. And is now unhappy that men have all gotten with the program. What many men feel, but struggle to articulate is a sense that “what you are calling ‘patriarchy’ smells pretty much like the shit I have to put up with everyday myself”. As I said before; patriarchy harms most men almost as much as most women.
Now crucially this does NOT dismiss the experience of patriarchy as women experience it. But it does suggest a better way to reframe it so as both genders get it.
Jared Diamond – I’ve read some of his stuff – is in the same boat as any other person looking to the past and trying to figure it out. They are stuck within current frameworks of reference and so, in the end, can only tell stories. Now, some of those stories might seem more plausible than others, but all of them are chock full of projections from the here and now into an unknown and largely unknowable past.
Red, if you’re looking to pit an economic understanding against a gender understanding, then seriously, go and read this excellent post from a wee while back by ‘stargazer’.
he then turns to studies and figures, a lot of which are twisted (and discredited) stats produced by overtly misogynistic fucktards to back his assertion that females and males are on some kind of level playing field when it comes to violence.
What a load of fucken bollocks.
When study after study shows the same thing then you pretty have to take it as a given. And, no, those studies have not been discredited.
Hi Bill – your comments above make a lot of sense. Pity the guys who are reading them cannot take them on board.
Patriachy does seem to me to be a valid framework to use in this discussion.
It is as ridiculous and outrageous as suggesting that women need the support, approval and contribution of men in order to change and improve who they are.
Yes. When the feminists demanded the right to define what was important to them, to frame gender issues entirely on their terms, they forgot that men might equally demand the same right as well.
Of course their response was ‘well you are all the bad guys so you don’t get that right’. And we said ‘well actually we AREN’T all the bad guys’
And the women reply “we never said that, we just want to hold all men accountable as a class for the actions of a few’. And so it goes.
Then the MRA types said ‘fuck you, we’re going to determine our own narrative anyway’. The women screamed ‘misogynists!’ and on it goes.
Oh well … I’ll finish here by repeating something I said above; that in the end the path through this shitstorm will only be found when both genders start trusting each other again. And then helping each other to be be the best we can.
I’ll put it this way. We all know that men cause more harm. It’s largely a fact of our greater strength and crap socialisation in an intrinsically violent society.
But tell a man that his greater strength is a gift, tell him it is his duty to use if safely, tell him it makes him a better man to be responsible for using this gift wisely … then you have a framework most men will respond to.
And then ask yourself, who is that most men will listen to most, that they will do almost anything to please, if not the women in their lives they mostly want nothing more than to love and cherish?
Yes. When the feminists demanded the right to define what was important to them, to frame gender issues entirely on their terms, they forgot that men might equally demand the same right as well.
Red. What’s with this ‘the feminists’? Do you really think that feminist thought and understanding is the exclusive preserve of women? I mean, my experience of patriarchy is substantially different to that of women, but it’s not separate.
Of course their response was ‘well you are all the bad guys so you don’t get that right’. And we said ‘well actually we AREN’T all the bad guys’
I only ever met one woman who called herself for being a feminist who hated men…I was the only man in a room of about a dozen feminists at the time. And you know what? The feminists in the room didn’t want a bar of it. (That was in a house the evening before a day of feminist workshops many years back in England…mostly anarcho feminists from memory, pretty light on the liberal feminist front and I only wound up being in that house by accident).
And the women reply “we never said that, we just want to hold all men accountable as a class for the actions of a few’. And so it goes.
I’ve never had a feminist attempt to hold me accountable for the actions of others (with the one isolated exception I’ve mentioned above)
Then the MRA types said ‘fuck you, we’re going to determine our own narrative anyway’. The women screamed ‘misogynists!’ and on it goes.
So the MRA types basically justify their shit off the back of their pre-existing prejudice.
Oh well … I’ll finish here by repeating something I said above; that in the end the path through this shitstorm will only be found when both genders start trusting each other again. And then helping each other to be be the best we can.
Again. I’ve never (with that one exception) found distrust – in relation to what we’re discussing – to be any kind of an issue.
I’ll put it this way. We all know that men cause more harm. It’s largely a fact of our greater strength and crap socialisation in an intrinsically violent society.
If society is intrinsically violent then it follows that no configuration of humanity can be anything but violent – and that’s simply not true. there are reasons why this society is violent. But you’re apparently loathe to analyse it.
But tell a man that his greater strength is a gift, tell him it is his duty to use if safely, tell him it makes him a better man to be responsible for using this gift wisely … then you have a framework most men will respond to.
Hail the almighty? Really??
And then ask yourself, who is that most men will listen to most, that they will do almost anything to please, if not the women in their lives they mostly want nothing more than to love and cherish?
And they all lived happily ever after in a patriarchal wonderland. Fan-fucking-tastic.
I already read Weka’s comment earlier. You might have noted I asked her to clarify one small part – which she did. She was giving a rundown of MRA stuff….not a run down of men’s attitudes. Is that where you went off track?
Well, what kind of response do you expect to an appeal for supposed superiority be acknowledged, accepted as truth and encouraged/rewarded? I wasn’t sneering at you. I was being contemptuous of the idea you were peddling. Look. If you happen to have a partner who is consensually submissive in aspects of your relationship, then all power to you both. But you can’t put that expectation or that template ‘out there’ as though it should be a norm and not expect some ‘less than enthusiastic’ responses.
“I’ve never had a feminist attempt to hold me accountable for the actions of others”
Try reading weka up above.
here’s what I said,
It then uses those strawmen to push theories that don’t hold men accountable as a class.
That means that men as a class are accountable for the privilges that their class is afforded. In the context of this conversation it also means that men as a class need to step up and change male violence, not because all individual men are responsible for the actions of other individual men, but because men are the ones that can change their own culture as a whole.
Nothing, I repeat nothing, in what I have said suggests that Bill is responsible for another general man’s violence. IMO he does have a responsibility to take action against male violence in general, and I see him doing that in this thread.
Likewise I will hold Pākehā as a class accountable for racism in NZ. Or the non-disabled accountable for the shit that disabled people have to go through just to live their lives. Not because non-disabled people are bad, but because they have power that disabled people don’t.
So, yet another example of your failure to even understand the basic arguments made by feminism, and to misrepresent my views. On and on it goes. Your views on feminism are so twisted from what feminists believe and you continue to assert that your views of feminism are more valid than those of feminists. It makes sense then that you insist that I don’t know what I mean elsewhere in the thread. There’s no way past that.
IMO he does have a responsibility to take action against male violence in general, and I see him doing that in this thread.
I’ve absolutely zero problem or argument when you frame it like that.
But still nothing said about women taking responsibility against female violence in general. Yes it’s less physically damaging and way less visible, but it emotionally it’s every bit as harmful.
Feminists have spent a lot of energy and got a LOT of oxygen demanding men take responsibility to change; yet the slightest hint from men that maybe women might want to examine their own camp too, gets viciously shouted down.
As for the rest of your comment, it’s patronising and condescending. All you do is tell me how ignorant and twisted I am, making the issue personal rather than adding to the conversation. You barely manage to omit the word misogynist. It’s typical of the bile feminist direct towards men and it’s taking you nowhere.
@Bill
Look. If you happen to have a partner who is consensually submissive in aspects of your relationship, then all power to you both.
Again the grotesque misrepresentation. It’s truly amazing what people will project. Actually my partner is a successful and capable business person in her own right and is naturally assertive and bossy when it suits her. She’s much better at organising people than I am, and has fine strong opinions of her own. It is why I love her.
But while you sneer, the fact remains, regardless of any imaginary templates you want to make up, almost no-one enters into an intimate relationship with a picture in their mind of hitting, kicking, beating or killing this person they love. No-one (apart from maybe the psychopaths) walk down the traditional marriage aisle in the hope that one day they can get to kick the shit out the person they are about to be joined with.
So when it does all end up in hospital, refuge or court surely it is worth asking ‘what went so badly wrong?’
In all this debate it is so easy to lose sight of this truth, that most people, most of the time are fundamentally good. And when they are not … it is more often the stuff of tragedy than malice.
That’s it from me. I’m sick of seeing my name on the sidebar for the time being and I’ve other things to get on with.
“the taboo of female-against-male domestic violence does need to be addressed”.
Yes – I would agree Bill, but isn’t it time that men took up that issue for themselves – just as women in the past have taken up the issue of domestic violence and worked to bring it out into the open, and to provide safe shelters for those women and children it affects.
Edit – I see that Weka above answers this in more detail.
Hi all, I would like to suggest that part of the tension in this discussion is that we have a head and a heart debating and in that, it can be hard to see common ground
I applaud your approach gsays and several decades ago i would have said the same.
In my experience those who set themselves up as saviours of the victim’s often gain a sense of personal entltlement and feel justified in using unethical means to get what they are convinced is owing to them, This manefests in dishonest and manipulative communication as was the case here. It is a form of violence and does create tension. In a domestic setting it is domestic violence. They themselves are convinced that because they are doing it for the victims is must be OK
Quite frankly I dont know how to get through to them. The only times i have observed a meaningful change from this behaviour is if they are by circumstance required to accept responsibility for some harm they have caused, but generally it can be blamed on the oppressors so it dosnt happen often. Thus are despots made from the best of intentions.
Oh wow so good, http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11637631 Raybon Kan “Meanwhile, in another romantic comedy, Fairfax and NZME seem to be dating. So one media firm was eyeing up another, yet the media were caught by surprise. What do we expect? The media were in a lock-up watching The Bachelor.”
It therefore seems important to renew the discussion of what we want: to think through not just what we are against, but what we are fighting for (and hence who ‘we’ are), and to consider what might be plausibly achieved in present circumstances.
I just read your recently suggested link about “commonism”. A very good read but I terribly missed one hugely important aspect or dimension, which seems to be left out of most socio-political discourse. Possibly the very last sentence hides a suggestion of a hint …
Incognito
Right I will have another look at that commonism piece and see what the dots you leave behind you refer to.
As to the quote above, yes to thinking about what we are fighting for (and it is a fight, not a skirmish against the powerful-money-materialism-crazed and their naive bunnies in the headlights, and is likely to be a fight to the death – of people elsewhere, or closer – our vulnerable towns and supply systems, our extended families, us, our known planet – which will become the place of the ants which I think have the life systems to survive in places).
But thinking who ‘we’ are. There isn’t time to think, argue and analyse that in depth. The ‘we’ have to be the people who will step forward and do something of value in building capacity, sustainable, friendly community and retaining as much kindness as possible, despite ever harsher conditions. Those who self-select to act, must seek out other people who can combine thinking, reflecting, comradeship and action and together work for worthy practical positive outcomes. The others are just, literally, time-wasters. In The Day of the Triffids, those who wake in the morning after the night-sky show, are blind and shocked and feel their way along the walls to the downstairs lobby hoping for help and guidance, and mill round in circles there.
That is what is happening here in the world right now, we can see but we can’t process intellectually what we see and so won’t take any steps to defray the disaster to come. What a future. Dire. And we are aboard the Titanic. Some survived from that – and one of them was in the company that built it. But it wasn’t his fault was it? The problem was over-confidence, hubris on everyones part, especially captain and crew. A very human failing. Perhaps that is why the human race is failing.
I will certainly have to re-read it again as it was rather long & dense at such a late time at night.
I think you’re probably right about everything you wrote although I personally dislike using ‘military’ terminology. I prefer to see it as (part of) “the human struggle” (Darwinian) to figure out who we are, what is the purpose (meaning) of life, and all those other pesky little questions that won’t go away 😉
The only thing I’d argue about is the tension between acting (now) and thinking (later). IMO we’re destined to do (repeat) the same things (mistakes, or, in your words “mill round in circles”) if we rely on short-term or so-called fast thinking (à la Kahneman). The human condition requires holistic approaches, which also means that actingthinking have to be(come) complementary rather than separate steps in the process.
Popper made a similar argument, I believe, when he discussed (piecemeal) social engineering and planning & politics: small steps with feedback loops along the way and continuous adjustment. That said, I’m not sure that his methodology/philosophy is applicable to major social crises. He contrasted this with Utopian engineering, which he was less keen on, to say the least … Perhaps that’s more like the urgent action that you’re referring to?
Do we need good or better leaders, self-selecting activists and/or thinkers, or do we try something completely different and new?
From a liberal framework it dangerous to say that because men commit more severe family violence that we should have rules or campaigns that single them out. Because if you can do that how do you deal with the significant differences in statistics between cultural groups and socioeconomic levels?
And from a pragmatic framework we currently have a situation where male – female violence is basically unacceptable (most people will actively intervene, which is good) and female to male violence is largely acceptable (at least slaps and some punches – almost no one would intervene). This means a little effort to discourage F-M assaults could have a large effect while M-F assaults are the sort of thing that considerable social pressure has not been able to weed out.
And of course those that see violence are likely to be more violent so reducing this has other benefits.
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Text within this block will maintain its original spacing when publishedFirst they came for the doctors But I was confused by the numbers and costs So I didn't speak up Then they came for our police and nurses And I didn't think we could afford those costs anyway So I ...
Photo by Joshua J. Cotten on UnsplashWe’re back again after our mid-winter break. We’re still with the ‘new’ day of the week (Thursday rather than Friday) when we have our ‘hoon’ webinar with paying subscribers to The Kākā for an hour at 5 pm.Jump on this link on YouTube Livestream ...
Notes: This is a free article. Abuse in Care themes are mentioned. Video is at the bottom.BackgroundYesterday’s report into Abuse in Care revealed that at least 1 in 3 of all who went through state and faith based care were abused - often horrifically. At least, because not all survivors ...
Luxon speaks in Parliament yesterday about the Abuse in Care report. Photo: Hagen Hopkins/Getty ImagesTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:PM Christopher Luxon said yesterday in tabling the Abuse in Carereport in Parliament he wanted to ‘do the ...
About a decade ago I worked with a bloke called Steve. He was the grizzled veteran coder, a few years older than me, who knew where the bodies were buried - code wise. Despite his best efforts to be approachable and friendly he could be kind of gruff, through to ...
Some of the recent announcements from the government have reminded us of posts we’ve written in the past. Here’s one from early 2020. There were plenty of reactions to the government’s infrastructure announcement a few weeks ago which saw them fund a bunch of big roading projects. One of ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Thursday, July 25 are:News: Why Electric Kiwi is closing to new customers - and why it matters RNZ’s Susan EdmundsScoop: Government drops ...
Hi,I felt a small wet tongue snaking through one of the holes in my Crocs. It explored my big toe, darting down one side, then the other. “He’s looking for some toe cheese,” said the woman next to me, words that still haunt me to this day.Growing up in New ...
Yesterday I happily quoted the Prime Minister without fact-checking him and sure enough, it turns out his numbers were all to hell. It’s not four kg of Royal Commission report, it’s fourteen.My friend and one-time colleague-in-comms Hazel Phillips gently alerted me to my error almost as soon as I’d hit ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Thursday, July 25, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day were:The Abuse in Care Royal Commission of Inquirypublished its final report yesterday.PM Christopher Luxon and The Minister responsible for ...
The Official Information Act has always been a battle between requesters seeking information, and governments seeking to control it. Information is power, so Ministers and government agencies want to manage what is released and when, for their own convenience, and legality and democracy be damned. Their most recent tactic for ...
TL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:Transport and Energy Minister Simeon Brown is accelerating plans to spend at least $10 billion through Public Private Partnerships (PPPs) to extend State Highway One as a four-lane ‘Expressway’ from Warkworth to Whangarei ...
I live my life (woo-ooh-ooh)With no control in my destinyYea-yeah, yea-yeah (woo-ooh-ooh)I can bleed when I want to bleedSo come on, come on (woo-ooh-ooh)You can bleed when you want to bleedYea-yeah, come on (woo-ooh-ooh)Everybody bleed when they want to bleedCome on and bleedGovernments face tough challenges. Selling unpopular decisions to ...
Please note:To skip directly to the- parliamentary footage in the video, scroll to 1:21 To skip to audio please click on the headphone iconon the left hand side of the screenThis video / audio section is under development. ...
Given the crackdown on wasteful government spending, it behooves me to point to a high profile example of spending by the Luxon government that looks like a big, fat waste of time and money. I’m talking about the deployment of NZDF personnel to support the US-led coalition in the Red ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:40 am on Wednesday, July 24 are:Deep Dive: Chipping away at the housing crisis, including my comments RNZ/Newsroom’s The DetailNews: Government softens on asset sales, ...
As I reported about the city centre, Auckland’s rail network is also going through a difficult and disruptive period which is rapidly approaching a culmination, this will result in a significant upgrade to the whole network. Hallelujah. Also like the city centre this is an upgrade predicated on the City ...
Today, a 4 kilogram report will be delivered to Parliament. We know this is what the report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State and Faith-based Care weighs, because our Prime Minister told us so.Some reporter had blindsided him by asking a question about something done by ...
TL;DR: As of 7:00 am on Wednesday, July 24, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Beehive:Transport Minister Simeon Brownannounced plans to use PPPs to fund, build and run a four-lane expressway between Auckland ...
NewstalkZB host Mike Hosking, who can usually be relied on to give Prime Minister Christopher Luxon an easy run, did not do so yesterday when he interviewed him about the HealthNZ deficit. Luxon is trying to use a deficit reported last year by HealthNZ as yet another example of the ...
Back in January a StatsNZ employee gave a speech at Rātana on behalf of tangata whenua in which he insulted and criticised the government. The speech clearly violated the principle of a neutral public service, and StatsNZ started an investigation. Part of that was getting an external consultant to examine ...
Renting for life: Shared ownership initiatives are unlikely to slow the slide in home ownership by much. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:A Deloittereport for Westpac has projected Aotearoa’s home-ownership rate will ...
You're broken down and tiredOf living life on a merry go roundAnd you can't find the fighterBut I see it in you so we gonna walk it outAnd move mountainsWe gonna walk it outAnd move mountainsAnd I'll rise upI'll rise like the dayI'll rise upI'll rise unafraidI'll rise upAnd I'll ...
There’s been a change in Myers Park. Down the steps from St. Kevin’s Arcade, past the grassy slopes, the children’s playground, the benches and that goat statue, there has been a transformation. The underpass for Mayoral Drive has gone from a barren, grey, concrete tunnel, to a place that thrums ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections Global society may have finally slammed on the brakes for climate-warming pollution released by human fossil fuel combustion. According to the Carbon Monitor Project, the total global climate pollution released between February and May 2024 declined slightly from the amount released during the same ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Tuesday, July 23 are:Deep Dive: Penlink: where tolling rhetoric meets reality BusinessDesk-$$$’sOliver LewisScoop:Te Pūkenga plans for regional polytechs leak out ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Tuesday, July 23, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Health: Shane Reti announcedthe Board of Te Whatu Ora-Health New Zealand was being replaced with Commissioner Lester Levy ...
Health NZ warned the Government at the end of March that it was running over Budget. But the reasons it gave were very different to those offered by the Prime Minister yesterday. Prime Minister Christopher Luxon blamed the “botched merger” of the 20 District Health Boards (DHBs) to create Health ...
Long ReadKey Summary: Although National increased the health budget by $1.4 billion in May, they used an old funding model to project health system costs, and never bothered to update their pre-election numbers. They were told during the Health Select Committees earlier in the year their budget amount was deficient, ...
As a momentous, historic weekend in US politics unfolded, analysts and commentators grasped for precedents and comparisons to help explain the significance and power of the choice Joe Biden had made. The 46th president had swept the Democratic party’s primaries but just over 100 days from the election had chosen ...
TL;DR: I’m casting around for new ideas and ways of thinking about Aotearoa’s political economy to find a few solutions to our cascading and self-reinforcing housing, poverty and climate crises.Associate Professor runs an online masters degree in the economics of sustainability at Torrens University in Australia and is organising ...
The Finance and Expenditure Committee has reported back on National's Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill. The bill sets up water for privatisation, and was introduced under urgency, then rammed through select committee with no time even for local councils to make a proper submission. Naturally, national's select committee ...
Some years ago, I bought a book at Dunedin’s Regent Booksale for $1.50. As one does. Vandrad the Viking (1898), by J. Storer Clouston, is an obscure book these days – I cannot find a proper online review – but soon it was sitting on my shelf, gathering dust alongside ...
History is not on the side of the centre-left, when Democratic presidents fall behind in the polls and choose not to run for re-election. On both previous occasions in the past 75 years (Harry Truman in 1952, Lyndon Johnson in 1968) the Democrats proceeded to then lose the White House ...
This is a free articleCoverageThis morning, US President Joe Biden announced his withdrawal from the Presidential race. And that is genuinely newsworthy. Thanks for your service, President Biden, and all the best to you and yours.However, the media in New Zealand, particularly the 1News nightly bulletin, has been breathlessly covering ...
A homeless person’s camp beside a blocked-off slipped damage walkway in Freeman’s Bay: we are chasing our tail on our worsening and inter-related housing, poverty and climate crises. Photo: Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy ...
What has happened to it all?Crazy, some'd sayWhere is the life that I recognise?(Gone away)But I won't cry for yesterdayThere's an ordinary worldSomehow I have to findAnd as I try to make my wayTo the ordinary worldYesterday morning began as many others - what to write about today? I began ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Monday, July 22 are:Today’s Must Read: Father and son live in a tent, and have done for four years, in a million ...
TL;DR: As of 7:00 am on Monday, July 22, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:US President Joe Biden announced via X this morning he would not stand for a second term.Multinational professional services firm ...
A listing of 32 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, July 14, 2024 thru Sat, July 20, 2024. Story of the week As reflected by preponderance of coverage, our Story of the Week is Project 2025. Until now traveling ...
This weekend, a friend pointed out someone who said they’d like to read my posts, but didn’t want to pay. And my first reaction was sympathy.I’ve already told folks that if they can’t comfortably subscribe, and would like to read, I’d be happy to offer free subscriptions. I don’t want ...
National: The Party of ‘Law and Order’ IntroductionThis weekend, the Government formally kicked off one of their flagship policy programs: a military style boot camp that New Zealand has experimented with over the past 50 years. Cartoon credit: Guy BodyIt’s very popular with the National Party’s Law and Orderimage, ...
Day one of the solo leg of my long journey home begins with my favourite sound: footfalls in an empty street. 5.00 am and it’s already light and already too warm, almost.If I can make the train that leaves Budapest later this hour I could be in Belgrade by nightfall; ...
Do you remember Y2K, the threat that hung over humanity in the closing days of the twentieth century? Horror scenarios of planes falling from the sky, electronic payments failing and ATMs refusing to dispense cash. As for your VCR following instructions and recording your favourite show - forget about it.All ...
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts being questioned by The Kākā’s Bernard Hickey.TL;DR: My top six things to note around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the week to July 20 were:1. A strategy that fails Zero Carbon Act & Paris targetsThe National-ACT-NZ First Coalition Government finally unveiled ...
Summary:As New Zealand loses at least 12 leaders in the public service space of health, climate, and pharmaceuticals, this month alone, directly in response to the Government’s policies and budget choices, what lies ahead may be darker than it appears. Tui examines some of those departures and draws a long ...
The Minister of Housing’s ambition is to reduce markedly the ratio of house prices to household incomes. If his strategy works it would transform the housing market, dramatically changing the prospects of housing as an investment.Leaving aside the Minister’s metaphor of ‘flooding the market’ I do not see how the ...
As previously noted, my historical fantasy piece, set in the fifth-century Mediterranean, was accepted for a Pirate Horror anthology, only for the anthology to later fall through. But in a good bit of news, it turned out that the story could indeed be re-marketed as sword and sorcery. As of ...
An employee of tobacco company Philip Morris International demonstrates a heated tobacco device. Photo: Getty ImagesTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy on Friday, July 19 are:At a time when the Coalition Government is cutting spending on health, infrastructure, education, housing ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 8:30 am on Friday, July 19 are:Scoop: NZ First Minister Casey Costello orders 50% cut to excise tax on heated tobacco products. The minister has ...
Kia ora, it’s time for another Friday roundup, in which we pull together some of the links and stories that caught our eye this week. Feel free to add more in the comments! Our header image this week shows a foggy day in Auckland town, captured by Patrick Reynolds. ...
TL;DR : Here’s the top six items climate news for Aotearoa this week, as selected by Bernard Hickey and The Kākā’s climate correspondent Cathrine Dyer. A discussion recorded yesterday is in the video above and the audio of that sent onto the podcast feed.The Government released its draft Emissions Reduction ...
Save some money, get rich and old, bring it back to Tobacco Road.Bring that dynamite and a crane, blow it up, start all over again.Roll up. Roll up. Or tailor made, if you prefer...Whether you’re selling ciggies, digging for gold, catching dolphins in your nets, or encouraging folks to flutter ...
Waiting In The Wings:For truly, if Trump is America’s un-assassinated Caesar, then J.D. Vance is America’s Octavian, the Republic’s youthful undertaker – and its first Emperor.DONALD TRUMP’S SELECTION of James D. Vance as his running-mate bodes ill for the American republic. A fervent supporter of Viktor Orban, the “illiberal” prime ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Friday, July 19, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:The PSAannounced the Employment Relations Authority (ERA) had ruled in the PSA’s favour in its case against the Ministry ...
TL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers last night features co-hosts and talking with:The Kākā’s climate correspondent talking about the National-ACT-NZ First Government’s release of its first Emissions Reduction Plan;University of Otago Foreign Relations Professor and special guest Dr Karin von ...
Open access notablesImproving global temperature datasets to better account for non-uniform warming, Calvert, Quarterly Journal of the Royal Meteorological Society:To better account for spatial non-uniform trends in warming, a new GITD [global instrumental temperature dataset] was created that used maximum likelihood estimation (MLE) to combine the land surface ...
A late change to charter school legislation will cheat educators out of fair pay and negotiating power proving charter schools are just a vehicle to make profit out of our education system. ...
In 2004 te iwi Māori rallied against the Crown’s attempt to confiscate our coastlines and moana with the Foreshore and Seabed Act. This led to the largest hīkoi of a generation and the birth of Te Pāti Māori. 20 years later, history is repeating itself. Today the government has announced ...
It has been five and a half years since the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care was established to investigate the abuse of children, young people, and vulnerable adults within state and faith-based institutions. Yesterday, the final report - Whanaketia through pain and trauma, from darkness to light ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to take action off the back of the International Court of Justice ruling on Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestine. ...
On Friday the International Court of Justice reaffirmed what Palestinian’s have been telling us for decades: that the occupation and colonisation of Palestinian lands by Israel is illegal and must end immediately. They also called for reparations for Palestinian’s who have lived under Israeli occupation since it began in 1967. ...
Labour calls on the Government to act after the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled that Israel’s occupation of Palestinian Territories is illegal. ...
The 53.7 percent rise in benefit sanctions over the last year is more proof of this Government’s disdain for our communities most in need of support. ...
Aotearoa could be a country where every child grows up feeling safe, loved and with a sense of belonging in their whānau and community. But for some of our children, this is far from reality. Instead, they are trapped in a maze of intergenerational harm that they can’t escape on ...
Te Pāti Māori are calling for David Seymour to resign as Associate Health Minister in response to his call for Pharmac to ignore the Treaty of Waitangi. “This announcement is just another example of the government’s anti-Tiriti, anti-Māori agenda.” Said Co-leader and spokesperson for health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. “Seymour thinks it ...
The soaring price of renting is driving the rise of inflation in this country - with latest figures from Stats NZ showing rents are up 4.8 per cent on average while annual inflation is at 3.3 per cent. ...
National’s Emissions Reduction Plan will take New Zealand further from the economy we need to ensure the next generation has a stable climate and secure livelihoods. ...
Following consultation with named parties and thorough consideration of privacy interests, the Green Party is in a position to release the Executive Summary of the final report from the independent investigation into Darleen Tana. ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon should be asking serious questions of his Minister for Resources Shane Jones now it’s been revealed he misled the public about a dinner with mining companies that he didn’t declare and said wasn’t pre-arranged. ...
Te Pāti Māori have submitted to the Justice Select Committee against the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill. The bill will further entrench racism in our justice system and fails to focus on rehabilitation. “Reinstating Three Strikes will empower a systematically racist system and exacerbate the overrepresentation of Māori in ...
The Transport and Infrastructure Committee is set to make a determination on the Residential Tenancies Amendment (RTA) Bill in the coming weeks. “This legislation will give landlords the power to kick our whānau out onto the street for no reason” said Housing spokesperson, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “Their solution to the housing ...
“National’s campaign was about tackling crime and the best they can do is a two-year long Ministerial Advisory Group,” Labour justice spokesperson Duncan Webb said. ...
“There are more examples of charter schools failing their students than there are success stories. The coalition Government is driving to dismantle our public school system and instead promote a privatised, competitive structure that puts profits before kids,” Jan Tinetti said. ...
“This government is choosing to deliberately mislead and withhold information, keeping our people in the dark about this government’s agenda and the future of our mokopuna,” said co-leader and spokesperson for Health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. The call comes after the demand from the Chief Ombudsman that Associate Minister of Health, Casey ...
“Today’s climate announcement by Simon Watts makes clear the National Government is simply paying lip service to meeting its climate change targets,” Megan Woods said. ...
National is choosing to make life harder for workers by taking away the rights our communities have fought hard for. Here's how they’re taking workers backwards. ...
Australia, Canada and New Zealand today issued the following statement on the need for an urgent ceasefire in Gaza and the risk of expanded conflict between Hizballah and Israel. The situation in Gaza is catastrophic. The human suffering is unacceptable. It cannot continue. We remain unequivocal in our condemnation of ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today reminded all State and faith-based institutions of their legal obligation to preserve records relevant to the safety and wellbeing of those in its care. “The Abuse in Care Inquiry’s report has found cases where records of the most vulnerable people in State and faith‑based institutions were ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says the Government’s online safety website for children and young people has reached one million page views. “It is great to see so many young people and their families accessing the site Keep It Real Online to learn how to stay safe online, and manage ...
Tēnā tātou katoa, Ngā mihi te rangi, ngā mihi te whenua, ngā mihi ki a koutou, kia ora mai koutou. Thank you for the opportunity to be here and the invitation to speak at this 50th anniversary conference. I acknowledge all those who have gone before us and paved the ...
New Zealand’s payroll providers have successfully prepared to ensure 3.5 million individuals will, from Wednesday next week, be able to keep more of what they earn each pay, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis and Revenue Minister Simon Watts. “The Government's tax policy changes are legally effective from Wednesday. Delivering this tax ...
An experimental vineyard which will help futureproof the wine sector has been opened in Blenheim by Associate Regional Development Minister Mark Patterson. The covered vineyard, based at the New Zealand Wine Centre – Te Pokapū Wāina o Aotearoa, enables controlled environmental conditions. “The research that will be produced at the Experimental ...
The Coalition Government has confirmed the indicative regional breakdown of North Island Weather Event (NIWE) funding for state highway recovery projects funded through Budget 2024, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Regions in the North Island suffered extensive and devastating damage from Cyclone Gabrielle and the 2023 Auckland Anniversary Floods, and ...
Indonesia’s Foreign Minister, Retno Marsudi, will visit New Zealand next week, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. “Indonesia is important to New Zealand’s security and economic interests and is our closest South East Asian neighbour,” says Mr Peters, who is currently in Laos to engage with South East Asian partners. ...
He aha te kai a te rangatira? He kōrero, he kōrero, he kōrero. The government has reaffirmed its commitment to supporting the aspirations of Ngāti Maniapoto, Minister for Māori Development Tama Potaka says. “My thanks to Te Nehenehenui Trust – Ngāti Maniapoto for bringing their important kōrero to a ministerial ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has thanked outgoing Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority, Janice Fredric, for her service to the board.“I have received Ms Fredric’s resignation from the role of Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority,” Mr Brown says.“On behalf of the Government, I want to thank Ms Fredric for ...
The Government is proposing legislation to overturn a Court of Appeal decision and amend the Marine and Coastal Area Act in order to restore Parliament’s test for Customary Marine Title, Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “Section 58 required an applicant group to prove they have exclusively used and occupied ...
Regulation Minister David Seymour says that opposition parties have united in bad faith, opposing what they claim are ‘dangerous changes’ to the Early Childhood Education sector, despite no changes even being proposed yet. “Issues with affordability and availability of early childhood education, and the complexity of its regulation, has led ...
After receiving more than 740 submissions in the first 20 days, Regulation Minister David Seymour is asking the Ministry for Regulation to extend engagement on the early childhood education regulation review by an extra two weeks. “The level of interest has been very high, and from the conversations I’ve been ...
The Coalition Government is investing $802.9 million into the Wairarapa and Manawatū rail lines as part of a funding agreement with the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA), KiwiRail, and the Greater Wellington and Horizons Regional Councils to deliver more reliable services for commuters in the lower North Island, Transport Minister Simeon ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced his intention to appoint a Crown Manager to both Hawke’s Bay Regional and Wairoa District Councils to speed up the delivery of flood protection work in Wairoa."Recent severe weather events in Wairoa this year, combined with damage from Cyclone Gabrielle in 2023 have ...
Mr Speaker, this is a day that many New Zealanders who were abused in State care never thought would come. It’s the day that this Parliament accepts, with deep sorrow and regret, the Report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care. At the heart of this report are the ...
For the first time, the Government is formally acknowledging some children and young people at Lake Alice Psychiatric Hospital experienced torture. The final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State and Faith-based Care “Whanaketia – through pain and trauma, from darkness to light,” was tabled in Parliament ...
The Government has acknowledged the nearly 2,400 courageous survivors who shared their experiences during the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse in State and Faith-Based Care. The final report from the largest and most complex public inquiry ever held in New Zealand, the Royal Commission Inquiry “Whanaketia – through ...
With a week to go before hard-working New Zealanders see personal income tax relief for the first time in fourteen years, 513,000 people have used the Budget tax calculator to see how much they will benefit, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis. “Tax relief is long overdue. From next Wednesday, personal income ...
Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden says a bill that has passed its first reading will improve parental leave settings and give non-biological parents more flexibility as primary carer for their child. The Regulatory Systems Amendment Bill (No3), passed its first reading this morning. “It includes a change ...
Two Bills designed to improve regulation and make it easier to do business have passed their first reading in Parliament, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. The Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill make key changes to legislation administered by the Ministry ...
New legislation paves the way for greater competition in sectors such as banking and electricity, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “Competitive markets boost productivity, create employment opportunities and lift living standards. To support competition, we need good quality regulation but, unfortunately, a recent OECD report ranked New ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says lotteries for charitable purposes, such as those run by the Heart Foundation, Coastguard NZ, and local hospices, will soon be allowed to operate online permanently. “Under current laws, these fundraising lotteries are only allowed to operate online until October 2024, after which ...
The Coalition Government is accelerating work on the new four-lane expressway between Auckland and Whangārei as part of its Roads of National Significance programme, with an accelerated delivery model to deliver this project faster and more efficiently, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “For too long, the lack of resilient transport connections ...
Sir Don McKinnon will travel to Viet Nam this week as a Special Envoy of the Government, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. “It is important that the Government give due recognition to the significant contributions that General Secretary Nguyen Phu Trong made to New Zealand-Viet Nam relations,” Mr ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says newly appointed Commissioner, Grant Illingworth KC, will help deliver the report for the first phase of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into COVID-19 Lessons, due on 28 November 2024. “I am pleased to announce that Mr Illingworth will commence his appointment as ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters travels to Laos this week to participate in a series of Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN)-led Ministerial meetings in Vientiane. “ASEAN plays an important role in supporting a peaceful, stable and prosperous Indo-Pacific,” Mr Peters says. “This will be our third visit to ...
Construction of a new mental health facility at Te Nikau Grey Hospital in Greymouth is today one step closer, Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey says. “This $27 million facility shows this Government is delivering on its promise to boost mental health care and improve front line services,” Mr Doocey says. ...
New Zealand is committing nearly $50 million to a package supporting sustainable Pacific fisheries development over the next four years, Foreign Minister Winston Peters and Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones announced today. “This support consisting of a range of initiatives demonstrates New Zealand’s commitment to assisting our Pacific partners ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour says proposed changes to the Education and Training Amendment Bill will ensure charter schools have more flexibility to negotiate employment agreements and are equipped with the right teaching resources. “Cabinet has agreed to progress an amendment which means unions will not be able to initiate ...
In response to serious concerns around oversight, overspend and a significant deterioration in financial outlook, the Board of Health New Zealand will be replaced with a Commissioner, Health Minister Dr Shane Reti announced today. “The previous government’s botched health reforms have created significant financial challenges at Health NZ that, without ...
Minister for Space and Science, Innovation and Technology Judith Collins will travel to Adelaide tomorrow for space and science engagements, including speaking at the Australian Space Forum. While there she will also have meetings and visits with a focus on space, biotechnology and innovation. “New Zealand has a thriving space ...
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts will travel to China on Saturday to attend the Ministerial on Climate Action meeting held in Wuhan. “Attending the Ministerial on Climate Action is an opportunity to advocate for New Zealand climate priorities and engage with our key partners on climate action,” Mr Watts says. ...
Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is travelling to the Solomon Islands tomorrow for meetings with his counterparts from around the Pacific supporting collective management of the region’s fisheries. The 23rd Pacific Islands Forum Fisheries Committee and the 5th Regional Fisheries Ministers’ Meeting in Honiara from 23 to 26 July ...
The Government today launched the Military Style Academy Pilot at Te Au rere a te Tonga Youth Justice residence in Palmerston North, an important part of the Government’s plan to crackdown on youth crime and getting youth offenders back on track, Minister for Children, Karen Chhour said today. “On the ...
The Government has welcomed news the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) has begun work to replace nine priority bridges across the country to ensure our state highway network remains resilient, reliable, and efficient for road users, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“Increasing productivity and economic growth is a key priority for the ...
Acting Prime Minister David Seymour has been in contact throughout the evening with senior officials who have coordinated a whole of government response to the global IT outage and can provide an update. The Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet has designated the National Emergency Management Agency as the ...
New Zealand and Japan will continue to step up their shared engagement with the Pacific, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “New Zealand and Japan have a strong, shared interest in a free, open and stable Pacific Islands region,” Mr Peters says. “We are pleased to be finding more ways ...
New developments in the heart of North Island forestry country will reinvigorate their communities and boost economic development, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones visited Kaingaroa and Kawerau in Bay of Plenty today to open a landmark community centre in the former and a new connecting road in ...
President Adeang, fellow Ministers, honourable Diet Member Horii, Ambassadors, distinguished guests. Minasama, konnichiwa, and good afternoon, everyone. Distinguished guests, it’s a pleasure to be here with you today to talk about New Zealand’s foreign policy reset, the reasons for it, the values that underpin it, and how it ...
Last summer when Matairangi burned, Ginny and Tom stood at the window of their lounge, watching kākā shoot skyward from the burning trees. From the distance, they looked to Ginny like pages torn from books and thrown into a bonfire. It was Tom, voice tight, who told her it was ...
Opinion: The Canadian short story writer Alice Munro – winner of the Nobel Prize in Literature in 2013 – died in May at the age of 92. Her work was about “the damage people inflict on one another in the name of love”, Deborah Treisman wrote in the New Yorker. ...
This month marks two years since the most powerful telescope ever built sent its first pictures back to earth. From its lofty vantage point, beyond the moon in orbit around the sun, the James Webb Space Telescope was tuned to observe the first stars and galaxies being born soon after ...
Comment: After Climate Change Minister Simon Watts’ preview several weeks ago, I had some optimism about the Government’s emissions reduction plan. Now I’ve read the discussion document, that hope has been dashed. How can the Government propose a plan that wants to take New Zealand taxpayers’ hard-earned money, and spend ...
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“Who said; cuts to company tax will benefit workers?” (Dawe is unable to even say the phrase with a straight face).
Genius.
Our Jude would make a great maggie t.
Don’t you mean Maggo t?
Minister For Corruption & Oravida scores a 10
I have been following the discussion following on from redlogix post on DV. The broken post and men dominate discussion post.
I thought RL post brave and honest and an invitation to explore a dark underside to our beautiful country.
This opportunity was lost when it turned into a bun fight.
Offence can only be offered.
I value most contributors here, either being informed or forgiving as they know not what they do.
As with all communities you are gonna get folk that are harder to like and that is one of the strengths of this site.
Hi gsays,
I actually like Red for the most part so honestly for me it’s the politics not a personality thing.
If any man wants to write about domestic violence issues from a male perspective I will welcome that if they can do so without running MRA-like lines or trying to undermine women or feminism. If they want to run those lines then they need to be prepared for a fight, because women are having to deal with that stuff at the cutting edge in ways that many people here are unaware of, and there are real world consequences for women from what Red was saying. Until that awareness changes it will always be a conflict.
btw, I didn’t see it as a bun fight and I’ve been in quite a few gender convos on ts in the past. I saw a whole lot of people step up in Red’s thread and disagree clearly and with good political argument. Haven’t read much of Tracey’s thread yet though.
hi weka, normally i get acronyms, but i havent worked out what mra is, could you please enlighten me?
Men’s Rights Activists. A political movement which focuses on some issues that affect men but does so in the context of attacking and undermining feminism and women. It tends to reject political analysis of systemic oppression and instead tries to make out that men aren’t affored privilege and power by the patriarchal systems that we live in.
For example, the idea that domestic violence isn’t gendered, that men get beaten too, therefore domestic violence is a human violence issue, not a male violence issue. It ignores the reasons why by far the most domestic violence is done by men against women, and the reasons underlying that that are societal and structural. It sets up strawmen such as the idea that domestic violence is gendered comes from feminists thinking all men are violent or somehow bad, when in fact feminism doesn’t say that. It then uses those strawmen to push theories that don’t hold men accountable as a class.
thanks, plenty to mull over there.
Great explanation weka – thanks
that men get beaten too, therefore domestic violence is a human violence issue, not a male violence issue.
Logically that does not follow. Or do feminists not consider men to be human?
It ignores the reasons why by far the most domestic violence is done by men against women
Not a strong statement given the many, many studies that confirm women perpetrate all manner of abuse and violence, and it is probably more due to a weakness of limb than purity of heart that holds them back from achieving equally bad statistics with men.
But I can see why this framing is important to you and I’m not going to disrespect that.
and the reasons underlying that that are societal and structural.
Not much quibble on that in general. Agreed.
It sets up strawmen such as the idea that domestic violence is gendered comes from feminists thinking all men are violent or somehow bad
OK so not all men are abusers.
It then uses those strawmen to push theories that don’t hold men accountable as a class.
But now we all are and you’re going to punish us all for it.
At least that is how I read it; maybe you’d care to clarify?
imo red this
“Not a strong statement given the many, many studies that confirm women perpetrate all manner of abuse and violence, and it is probably more due to a weakness of limb than purity of heart that holds them back from achieving equally bad statistics with men.”
is where your problem lies.
Or perhaps this particular bit “and it is probably more”
and remember the above was in response to
“It ignores the reasons why by far the most domestic violence is done by men against women”
You cannot see the “by far” qualifier – you are blinded to it – perhaps by the abuse you suffered or maybe some other reason but the qualifier is there imo so that debate CAN occur not as a poke to get you to retaliate – which is how I interpret your response to weka’s sentence.
Can you understand what I am saying?
Can you see that I am NOT attacking you?
Can you see that your response was disproportionate to the sentence that you responded to?
Can you see how that could escalate the intensity or heat of the discussion?
That is just one example – I ask you to seriously consider your emotions around this, your judgments about yourself and others, and what you want to achieve from this.
marty….. This is in its own little way an example of violence, and so the circle remains unbroken
Can you elaborate on what you mean please Xanthe – I cannot see how what I wrote is an example of violence
Read it again.
Is it dialogue?
I wrote it Xanthe so believe me I don’t need to read it again. Sure it may not be dialogue (I could argue that but I’ll accept it), but it came from a place of compassion and genuine desire on my part to add something positive to the situation. Is that violence to you?
Read it again
I did ask for further explanation and you don’t want to do that – that’s cool, I love self selection.
Marty ” Can you see that your response was disproportionate to the sentence that you responded to?
Can you see how that could escalate the intensity or heat of the discussion?”
Because you find the reasonable suggestion that we look for the underlieing drivers of domestic violence rather than treating it as a male problem ….. uncomfortable and challenging
you attack and place the blame for that attack on the way he presented the suggestion.
That is both disingenuous and a form of violence
As you well know!
I have considerable experience of bullying. I know it when it happens
No – it wasn’t a form of violence, marty mars. Anything but. It was a reasoned response to a somewhat convoluted statement by Red L.
Spot on marty, the quailifier is the thing that makes the position inclusive.
Red, in the past week I’ve made a few comments as to why I won’t engage on the content of your post or comments. I’ll add another one. Every step of the way I have seen you misuse and IMO willfully misinterpret other people’s arguments. Here is a classic example that is very easy to see. You just selectively misquoted me. That alone will stop me from talking to you on the content.
weka…. And this
You still seem to be having trouble explaining what you mean.
I say exactly what i mean . And you know quite well what i am saying.
I do not enter into what i consider disingenuous dialogue,
own it .
Good, that will save me some bother.
Unlike most responses I get, I went to the trouble of carefully requoting your comment, pretty much sentence by sentence so as it was clear what I was talking about and the dialog might flow better.
Then I made a response to pretty much ALL of what you said. I was lot less selective about it than most people are. The bit I mostly left out was your first para because I didn’t have any issue with it. Ironically enough it wasn’t until you used the MRA acronym in a comment to me a while back did I even know what it was either.
So I went and took a look and while there are some interesting ideas there, there’s also a lot that isn’t attractive at all. Unlike what you seem to think I’m no fan of the MRA scene because they seem locked into a confrontational mode of action that’s a complete dead end.
But now you are unhappy because you feel I willfully misquoted you. Geeze how do you think I feel after the shitstorm of misrepresentation and unmitigated personal abuse I’ve been on the wrong end the past few days? Really … I don’t ask that question rhetorically.
I repeat; “At least that is how I read it; maybe you’d care to clarify?”
Red, you selectively quoted me. I’ve then told you that you’ve mis quoted me. Are you trying to tell me that I don’t know what my own comment meant and intended?
Seems a reasonable assumption
I quoted you quite extensively and only left out the bit I largely agreed with.
Are you trying to tell me that I don’t know what my own comment meant and intended?
In the past whenever I’ve tried saying something like that it’s been comprehensively scorned and shat all over. Intentions being apparently worthless.
Actually, it seems to be you who is blinded by it. Studies show that women and men commit similar amounts of violence and abuse. The violence by men causes far more physical damage than that done by women and so we hear more of it but that doesn’t mean that violence by women doesn’t happen at close to the same rate.
My response to that is for men to start being active around solving the issues of violence against them without trying to undo the work that women have done. It’s actually not that hard an approach. The problem comes when men want to deny the structural issues that exist because of the patriarchal system (or whatever we want to call it) and how that system privileges people differently. I get that men don’t want to be blamed, but that’s a different thing than saying that each gender is just as violent as the other. The dynamics are different and I think the one thing we can assume here is that women see violence as a different thing than what you are suggesting, so there is a power struggle right there. Because women have been working on violence within a system that automaticaly affords them less power, they’re not going to respond well to yet another attempt to disempower them.
It may just be better(more) communication but it seems that violence (from all sources) is increasing.
It is tempting to draw a correlation with the increasing economic inequality that is occuring
Ie is the underlieing driver of all violence is economic violence
(Not saying it is or isnt , just seeing if this model gives useful insight that could help prevent or forwarn of instances of violence)
Draco, there are only a few hundred female prisoners in NZ, at a reasonable guess there are in the region of 20 times as many men in jail. That doesn’t marry up with your similar levels of violence thing.
Then there is this,
‘Women are as likely to perpetrate domestic violence as men’. This one came up in the recent BBC documentary about ‘The Rise of Female Violence’, though to its marginal credit, the beeb only claimed this for ‘low level domestic violence’. First of all, we shouldn’t assume that if women perpetrate domestic violence, it’s always against men — some women have relationships with people of other genders too (and we don’t celebrate violence in those relationships either, especially as there is a real dearth of specialist service provision for survivors of domestic violence who are LGBTQ— which are also in fact the services that men experiencing domestic violence are most likely to need [1]). Furthermore, when women do commit ‘low level domestic violence’, it’s usually either self-defence or ‘co-violence’ — women are sole perpetrators in less than 4% of reported incidents [2]. This leads on to the next myth that needs to be debunked.
http://www.sistersuncut.org/2015/11/17/domestic-violence-and-gender-or-what-about-the-men-5-myths-debunked/
I find it interesting that men want to argue that women are as violent as men just in a less violent way. Which just comes across as self-serving mansplaining. I’m open the conversation happening in a different way, but given the whole point about power and how it gets given and used I’m not settling for a conversation where men come in and say Labour does it too.
The authors of the American CTS studies stress that no matter what the rate of violence or who initiates the violence, women are 7 to 10 times more likely to be injured in acts of intimate violence than are men [Orman, 1998]. Husbands have higher rates of the most dangerous and injurious forms of violence, their violent acts are repeated more often, they are less likely to fear for their own safety, and women are financially and socially locked into marriage to a much greater extent than men. In fact, Straus expresses his concern that “the statistics are likely to be misused by misogynists and apologists for male violence” [cited in Orman, 1998].
http://www.xyonline.net/content/claims-about-husband-battering
Etc etc etc.
I’m far less interested in exhanging internet links than I am in having a real conversation about violence. I don’t see this happening and that’s because of how Red framed it at the start.
Are you suggesting that rates of incarceration give meaningful data on offending?
I am dubious
Yes, which people are convicted does give an insight into who commits violence in this land. We do not have a dirty secret of abuse equivalent to the scale of the Catholic Church but committed by mothers, aunties and sisters in this country. Unless you can show me that we do?
@ maui
The fact there are far more male prisoners than female prisoners is irrelevant. Men tend to commit more physical and sex-related violence and it is reflected in the prison rate. Women on the other hand tend to use other means of violence and intimidation that are harder to prove because they are often carried out in a clandestine manner. And even when some form of direct physical violence is present, it is often the male victim who ends up being treated like the suspect. As a result there is far less reporting of violent acts by women against men.
Anne, that sounds like a story to me. Equally I can tell you a story that women don’t go to the police to report the abuse they and their kids suffer. Now which story sounds more like real life to you? And which is more relevant to exposing domestic violence in NZ. Where are the reformed female abusers who are sharing their story to the public because it needs some sunlight?
Thank-you for insulting me maui. I don’t make up stories. I suggest you read Draco below who has linked to what I am sure is peer removed research.
You have attempted to conflate one issue with another in order to prove a point – whatever precisely it may be. We are talking in general terms about the level of violence perpetrated by men and woman alike. If you are not prepared to accept that men can be equally victims of violence too then that is an indictment on your closed mind. The terrible abuse some women and children have been forced to suffer – often over long periods of time – is not being refuted by anyone here. All some of us are trying to point out is that women can also inflict serious damage to their partners. Indeed they can inflict serious damage on other individuals too which is something I can testify to.
For your information it took me 10 years to recover from what was done to me. I had to start from scratch… rebuild my life… my confidence and self esteem… and the hardest lesson of all was learning to trust people again.
Just returned. Dammit, ‘removed’ in first paragraph is meant to be ‘approved’.
Lesson: don’t comment unless you have time.
Thanks to all of you who stand up for reason and honesty.
It will prevail eventually
Those locked into their self serving prejudice ….. i hope you can find grace somewhere, in the meanwhile i really hope no one lets you anywhere near any potential domestic conflict. You potentially can cause real harm.
I should let DtB answer for himself, but the answer to your question seems to be embedded in his comment already:
he violence by men causes far more physical damage than that done by women and so we hear more of it
Also even when women do cause serious harm, it’s rarely reported. Many men on the wrong end of it don’t even begin to frame it as abuse. And when we do, it’s often not taken seriously, we run a high risk of being falsely accused as perpetrators and get no serious support.
To repeat, yes men are stronger and cause more damage. Everyone fully expects that at least 70% of the serious damage and harm will be done by men. But I maintain that discrepancy more a consequence of biology than sociology. (Maybe there lies the crux of our disagreement.)
The term ‘patriarchy’ while useful at one time has become another barrier. As many people have already said, in the bigger picture patriarchy harms men almost as much as it does women. It’s more about social hierarchy, gross inequality and unjust exploitation than it is about gender. It forms the basis of the greed based, unconstrained capitalism that oppresses virtually all of humanity in pretty much equal measure.
Again feminism has a LOT of interesting and vital things to say about patriarchy, but decoupling the concept from gender might well lower the barrier to more people accepting it. Maybe we need a new word for it.
Not sure if you can watch this 10 min video from where you are, but this is real life. http://www.tv3.co.nz/THE-HUI-The-Hui-Ep3-Part-2/tabid/3692/articleID/126275/Default.aspx
Quick synopsis of the clip: Turangi midwife sees 50% of client mothers in domestic violence situations. So taking this into account, from your world view this would mean pregnant women instigating attacks from their partners. Or solely pregnant women being the ones inflicting damage on their male partners. I can’t reconcile that I’m sorry, and I can’t think of anyone I know in real life who would make those assumptions either.
I can’t do the video, but your synopsis doesn’t surprise me. Pregnancy is a time of heightened emotions for both partners, that often catalyses both the best and worst for each of them.
In my experience (and it’s only from a sample of one) pregnancy stimulates some very deep and primitive instincts in the mother. Unless you are prepared for them, or at least are confident enough as a man to deal with them, they can be very confronting. Cause can never stand in for excuse, but it’s exactly the kind of thing I have in mind when I’m taking about the need to understand root causes better.
Men too react in many subtle and unconscious ways to their partner being pregnant; and most of us are completely unprepared for these intense feelings. So it does not surprise me at all that pregnancy is a time of increased risk of violence. Personally I can think of few things sadder than a young pregnant mother beaten and hurt by her partner … and mostly for reasons that are probably quite avoidable.
But of course most women are not pregnant all their lives; which in real life is time enough.
What that video says is that there is something going on in very economically depressed Turangi which the health and law enforcement authorities need to get to the bottom of.
The health authorities are very much aware of the issue, have people who know about the issues on the ground (like midwives) and reformed male abusers and they do campaigns on addressing the issue. A pity there’s a sub section of society who have alternate theories on what the health issue is, a bit like the beliefs of climate deniers I might add.
The Surprising Truth About Women and Violence
I should have been more clear and said similar amounts of domestic violence.
And then there’s this bit:
it seems but it isn’t – thank you for your concern draco
No, you actually are blinded by your biases.
If you say so I shall give it due consideration.
Can I ask for clarification weka? Specifically on this bit “…the idea that domestic violence isn’t gendered, that men get beaten too, therefore domestic violence is a human violence issue, not a male violence issue”
Are you claiming that if one was to say that domestic violence is a human violence issue, that just by saying that, political analysis of systemic oppression is ‘rubbished’? Or are you meaning to say that it can and sometimes is used in that way?
I think that MRA-like arguments I have read say that it’s not a gender issue/ it’s a human issue as part and parcel of trying to negate the idea that the patriarchal system is a real thing that affects men and women differently (they also seem to be doing the same kind of strawman thing there by saying that feminism claims that the analyses of the patriarchy mean that women think men are all to blame, at which point its very hard not to start rolling ones eyes).
So yes, if someone wants to discuss domestic violence within the context of how humans are violent in general, that’s not a problem. But if they want to mistate feminist theory and then try and use that to support their position and undermine feminism, I say fuck off. Or if they want to misuse research, statistics and analyses of social dymanics, same thing.
Thanks.
gsays and weka – I’ve been enjoying (not sure that’s the right word – stimulated maybe – perhaps “reminded” and “activated” might be more correct ) by the Broken and Men Dominate discussions ), and I appreciated Red Logix’s comments – even if they were being offered in a context which might not have been appropriate.
We all have our different life experiences – some are more painful than others – and what I have learned thru those, is that you can never tell what someone else has been through, even if they’re looking and sounding okay. So – along with an understanding that not everyone can express themselves as well as they’d like, then maybe a degree of tolerance is required.
This sounds ideal, but is very difficult to put into practice. And somehow its easier to be dismissive of people on The Standard and other blogs, and on Facebook, rather than face-to-face in real life. I’m not very good at it, either.
Shit – I hope this doesn’t sound patronising . From an older age point-of-view. Not meant to be.
Just saying – these have been stimulating discussions, and they’ve brought up a lot of memories – good and bad.
And I wanted to comment on the anonymity thing as well – I started out on The Standard being anonymous. But – I’m now old enough (getting towards ancient), not sure if I’m tough enough – but decided it didn’t matter any more – so became the real me.
But I’m sure the real me is a lot nicer in writing, than the REAL me is !
hi jenny, i have been extremely fortunate not to have been a victim of violence.
i also have been close to some folk who have been in extremely unhealthy relationships, ranging from the psychological ‘water on a rock’ type abuse through to the serious hospitalizing because of assault.
it is hard to act, to act appropriately and effectively without isolating the victim further from support.
especially with the smaller incidents, the precurser events.
re pseudonyms, i picked this tag when i started commenting as, to my eyes, back then most folk on ts had them.
i find if someone is a dick or trolling, i just ignore them.
also want to add, i like the more vigorous moderating. stopping distracters and trolls.
i like dissenting opinions as it makes me look closer at what i believe, but some of these folks are more diversionary.
Hi Jenny, I also found the discussions stimulating and I’m heartened by the fact that they were more civil than usual.
I suppose I’m still wondering if some people don’t fully get what the objection to Red’s post was. Yes it was the context. But it’s also the politics. It’s brave of him to tell his personal story. I have no problem with anyone doing that and I know that most feminists not only support survivors of all genders using their experiences to talk about their politics, but that most feminists have men in their lives and so value men as a class.
What I have a problem with is Red’s politics around gender and violence, and his subsequent arguments that are essentially anti-feminist and underming of the politics of oppression that explains so much of women’s experiences. I have had quite a few conversations with him now over the years about this and I no longer have any tolerance for what he does. He is able to explain himself reasonably well so I don’t think this is an issue of him not being understood. I think it’s an issue of many people rejecting his basic premises (eg the biology arguments, tha idea that domestic violence isn’t gendered, his very poor understanding of what feminism is and does). Those basic premises get criticised and then he tries to defend them, and in amongst all that his story gets mixed up. But the story of what happened to him isn’t the problem, it’s how he is using that to inform his politics that is.
I will always support people to be able to talk about their experiences. But you are right, I have zero tolerance for people then using those to underpin some pretty abhorrent politics esp where those politics actively harm others. I’m not dismissive of Red (him and I have talked all sort of politics over the years), but I am now pretty dismissive of his gender politics. Much of that is due to the fact that it is such a waste of time and a huge distraction to have to argue about things that are fundamentall agin to progressive politics. We have urgent gender issues to work on, many of us have been working on them for a very long time, and the kinds of ideas that Red is pushing are part of a bigger agenda to undermine women and many of the gains made in recent decades.
” But the story of what happened to him isn’t the problem, it’s how he is using that to inform his politics that is.”
Thanks Weka for the clarification re Red L and his gender politics – I hadn’t registered his previous comments on those issues – maybe I just misssed them because of other interesting discussions going on elsewhere.
I don’t think we’ve had any of those big gender discussions for a quite a while. In the past they’ve been ugly, so it was good to see this one relatively straight forward.
” Much of that is due to the fact that it is such a waste of time and a huge distraction to have to argue about things that are fundamentall agin to progressive politics. ”
This neatly sums up why “progressive politics” is stalled, meanwhile we all career to distruction.
The inevitable outcome of the use of factionalisation as a campaigning tool is that you create a pool of voters that vote against you.
When you entwine that with environmental and fairness issues you do real harm.
Its sad
Who uses factionalism as a campaigning tool?
Are you being disingenuous or niave ?
Anyway there is a higher proportion of female sociopaths in positions of power then 20 years ago so it was worth the harm done
Personally i strive for less sociopathic bullys overall
“Are you being disingenuous or niave ?”
Neither. I’m asking you to explain a political point you just made so that I don’t have to waste time trying to second guess. Are you going to?
Ok i am settling on naive
If you are unaware of the factionalisation of the “progressive parties” and the inevitable result large scale voter turn off then i dont see how i am going to convince you.
really? .. you really dont get this?
Positive discrimination is an oxymoron, discrimination is wrong whatever the cause
I know it, you know it, and a majority of voters know it
So i guess you will tell me it isn’t happening? But if it looks like a duck , quacks like a duck, and craps everywhere , most people will see a duck.
That is not in any way to detract from the realities of the many and increasing inequalities we live with. just to make the point that a just cause dosn’t make wrong right and you do more harm than good if you act like it does!
“If you are unaware of the factionalisation of the “progressive parties” and the inevitable result large scale voter turn off then i dont see how i am going to convince you.”
I’m simply asking you to explain what YOU mean by those things, so there can be clear communication. I could guess what you mean, but honestly, if you can’t be bothered with communicating well I don’t see why I should either.
I don’t understand your comments either, Xanthe, re factionalisation of left parties. Can you clarify what you mean by this word – factionalisation please, and how does it occur ?
Perhaps an example would help.
Hi jenny
the purpose of governance is to find the best solutions for all, the purpose of elections or appointments either in government or within political parties is to appoint those who will best serve all.
Factionalisation occurs when candidates present as representing the interest of some demographic (gender, race, age, religion, idiology, whatever) and those demographs vote for the candidate that will best further the interest of that demograph.
It seems harmless enought but it is actually an unethical abuse of the democratic process, a bit around the edges does little harm, when it becomes the dominant feature of party or government the purpose of government and democracy is lost
that is quite significantly were the “progressive parties” are at
Obviously thats Just the short version
anti-feminist and underming of the politics of oppression that explains so much of women’s experiences.
I agree that my view does not line up with the usual feminist conventions. Although to be quite plain, feminism itself seems to have so many interpretations it’s not simple to conform to one linear narrative anymore.
Having said that, I’ll paraphrase what I’ve said before, that feminism has played a vital role in identifying and making visible the issue of dv. In that sense I’m hardly ‘anti-feminist’ … or whatever that is supposed to mean.
Really my view boils down to this. By placing most of it’s focus on the visible story of male violence on women and children the standard feminist narrative has become a hindrance to progress. I point to the flat-lining statistics that seem to be as bad as ever they were. We aren’t making progress and I think we need to look closer at the reasons why.
It is plain as day that the so called ‘gender wars’ have factionalised men and women against each other. That isn’t my doing, it’s just obvious after a few passes around the net. I think that is a hindrance. We will only solve this problem if men and women trust each other and help each other through this.
My approach is to treat the underlying root causes of intimate partner violence as a gender neutral, human problem that is aimed at understanding the drivers of behaviour and avoids blame.
And I think I can mostly say I’ve never been openly dismissive of your views weka. Not like you are now.
“In that sense I’m hardly ‘anti-feminist’ … or whatever that is supposed to mean.”
That’s right, you don’t know what I, as a feminist, mean. And until you are willing to take the time to learn that, I’m not longer willing to debate content with you on this topic.
“And I think I can mostly say I’ve never been openly dismissive of your views weka. Not like you are now.”
Maybe, but my memory over multiple conversations is that you routinely avoided dealing directly with the arguments pointing out the problems in what you are presenting. So it’s not as overt, but your dismissal is still there. And it’s horrible to debate with. I’ve reach my limit, so I’m making my dismissal overt.
As I’ve said, I have very good reasons for not engaging in debating the content of your post or comments. I’m not the only one that feels like it’s a waste of time and/or a big distraction.
Weka, I agree that RL did politicise his post and use some unfortunate stereotypes, but the thing that did strike me about the whole thread was the fact that males in abusive relationships are just told to get out of the relationship, that is your only option. Imagine if that is the only advice we gave females in abusive relationships, it’s simply not that easy.
There is no refuge available for men, retaliation is not and should never be an option and to my knowledge there are no support groups available to abused men. In fact, NZ’s Domestic Violence support groups openly exclude and even blame men:
“Every year, Shine directly helps thousands of adult and child victims of domestic abuse to be safer, and we motivate hundreds of men that hurt their families to change their behaviour”
http://www.2shine.org.nz/how-shine-helps/shine-services
“Women’s Refuge is a key national organisation working to end domestic violence towards women and children”
https://womensrefuge.org.nz/
Ad offered a useful statistic in the first comment of RL’s post:
“In the four years from 2009 to 2012, 76% of intimate partner violence-related deaths were perpetrated by men, 24% were perpetrated by women:
http://areyouok.org.nz/family-violence/statistics/”
Without trying to politicise the issue further, how do you see a way forward if we are not willing to look at the issue in a gender neutral way? Do we just accept that a quarter of intimate partner violence-related deaths are caused by men not getting out of the relationship in time?
This has ended up being a lot more confrontational than I originally set out to be. Please don’t take any of this as an attack on you, or as trying to diminish the work that AreYouOk and Womens Refuge do. I am simply trying to point out that while RL may have made some unfortunate statements in his post, his story equally needed to be told and the taboo of female-against-male domestic violence does need to be addressed.
Just to clarify a little further Bob. When I mention the topic of female on male abuse (which only some of which is physical) … I’m absolutely not trying to make any kind of Labour did it too argument. One form of abuse in no sense diminishes any other.
And it was my experience that the underlying causes of dv are shared by both genders, and this shapes my approach to the topic.
Nah. Deleted. Can’t be bothered.
“Weka, I agree that RL did politicise his post and use some unfortunate stereotypes, but the thing that did strike me about the whole thread was the fact that males in abusive relationships are just told to get out of the relationship, that is your only option. Imagine if that is the only advice we gave females in abusive relationships, it’s simply not that easy.”
Women do still get told that. In the past they got told that a lot. The reason they have more options today is because they organised.
There is no refuge available for men, retaliation is not and should never be an option and to my knowledge there are no support groups available to abused men.
The reason why women have services is because they organised. We didn’t get them handed to us on a plate. We got together under pretty difficult circumstances and created those services ourselves until others like the govt were willing to step in and help too. We are still hugely underfunded relative to many other aspects of NZ society, including ones that men not only benefit from but control the funding for.
In fact, NZ’s Domestic Violence support groups openly exclude and even blame men:
“Every year, Shine directly helps thousands of adult and child victims of domestic abuse to be safer, and we motivate hundreds of men that hurt their families to change their behaviour”
Yes, men need to be held accountable for when they hurt other people. What does that have to do with men who are victims?
Ad offered a useful statistic in the first comment of RL’s post:
“In the four years from 2009 to 2012, 76% of intimate partner violence-related deaths were perpetrated by men, 24% were perpetrated by women:
http://areyouok.org.nz/family-violence/statistics/”
I won’t look at links or stats that Red provides without a very good reason, because I reject his basic premise. All other times I have looked at arguments that say lots of women abuse men, it’s led to some pretty dodgy, already refuted research. I’m not going to waste my time because I don’t trust Red’s judgement on this. If someone whose gender politics I respect posts somethign I will look at it.
Without trying to politicise the issue further, how do you see a way forward if we are not willing to look at the issue in a gender neutral way?
We’re already making progress. This is one of Red’s basic premises that I reject (that we haven’t achieved anything useful).
Do we just accept that a quarter of intimate partner violence-related deaths are caused by men not getting out of the relationship in time?
ok, now I’m confused. Are you talking about men who abuse, or men who are being abused, or men who are both? Or what? It would help if you were clearer. I get that the situations are complex, and we need to take time to communicate clearly what we mean.
This has ended up being a lot more confrontational than I originally set out to be. Please don’t take any of this as an attack on you, or as trying to diminish the work that AreYouOk and Womens Refuge do. I am simply trying to point out that while RL may have made some unfortunate statements in his post, his story equally needed to be told and the taboo of female-against-male domestic violence does need to be addressed.
I actually don’t care what Red wrote in his post, because I’ve seen it all before. It’s not just that he makes unfortunately statements, it’s that his politics are based on premises that many progressive people reject, and he is aligning himself with groups that are actively harming feminism, women and society.
And let’s be clear here. He also is promoting a false dichotomy between the existing situation as he perceives it ie that seeing domestic violence as gendered is harming men and inhibiting change, and the idea that we can only do wright by men by abandoning that. It comes across as feminism is wrong about this and we need to look at men’s needs by underming what they are doing. It’s just bullshit. And it’s a serious problem here on the left because I don’t see any feminists supporting what he says (so if you want to ask where we would go, trying figuring out how to move somewhere after you have just said that feminism is wrong).
Here’s what I would respect,
Domestic violence overwhemingly affects women and is perpetrated by men, so we need to look at how women can be protected and men can be expected to change.
In addition to that, there are men who are being harmed by women, and we need to look at why that is happening, and protect them and get those women to change too.
In addition to that, humans don’t fit neatly into binary gender or heterosexuality, so we need to pay attention to those cultures and what their needs are around violence.
All of the above is an inclusive model. Feminism will support men organising to address violence against them. They won’t support that if it’s being done by underming feminism.
(aside, because this apparently needs spelling out, “Feminism will…” is me shorthanding and generalising as a way of not writing a novel. Like every other progressive movement, there are many expressions of feminism and many ways that feminists are active and see themselves. That’s not a problem).
Edit, I’ll also say that there is no taboo from me on talking about domestic violence against men, nor from most feminists I know. There is appropriate time and place, but in general, most feminism wants men to be well too. I would welcome posts and discussion about this topic on ts. I won’t tolerate that being done in a regressive and repressive MRA-like way. There are other, constructive ways to approach this. Red isn’t the one to do it.
How sad,
Just for the record I strongly endorse redlogix’s approach and am shocked by weka’s refusal to consider it.
Disappointed
It’s important to look further behind the statistics quoted above (e.g. 24% of intimate partner violence-related (IPV) deaths were perpetrated by women against men), which tend to underestimate the magnitude and effect of domestic violence perpetrated against women.
From the report provided on the areyouok website, when examining the deaths according to domestic violence history within the relationship, 93% of all the IPV deaths involved female primary victims, and 96% involved male predominant aggressors (page 41 of the report).
Of the deaths perpetrated by women, 83% were classified “Female primary victim/suspected primary victim kills male predominant aggressor”, and 17% as “Female predominant aggressor kills male/female primary victim”.
So, in most cases women perpetrating IPV deaths were primary victims themselves.
Also, just want to say thank you to Weka for your insightful and considerate comments regarding IPV and all gender-related subjects! This is a hard area to read as a lurker, let alone comment on, but so important, so I really appreciate that you continue to fight the fight.
I’m hugely appreciative of what you’ve just posted re the report.
And thanks for the thanks and the reminder of what this is like to be reading. This is why I don’t want to respond to Reds content, it just keeps a politically damaging conversation going. Walking away now.
+1 Jcm.
I also appreciate the effort Weka has put into her comments, patiently trying to educate and explain in the face of some incredible levels of ignorance and misogyny.
I expect it from the right but find it very hard to accept it from the left. Unfortunately my idea of left seemingly does not match many of those commenting on the Standard who claim to be left but still have racist and sexist attitudes that they are not willing to confront.
All the personal abuse on this thread has come from who?
Not my idea of the left either.
Certainly not from Weka.
That’s the weka who says that RL’s judgement on this issue is untrustworthy and that the facts that RL provides aren’t worth following up because they’re probably dodgy?
I suppose RL could be a greater man and not take that shit personally. But it sounds pretty damn personal.
That’s not quite what I said though CV, so there is another example of misrepresenting my position. Here’s what I actually said,
I won’t look at links or stats that Red provides without a very good reason, because I reject his basic premise. All other times I have looked at arguments that say lots of women abuse men, it’s led to some pretty dodgy, already refuted research. I’m not going to waste my time because I don’t trust Red’s judgement on this. If someone whose gender politics I respect posts somethign I will look at it.
I have given analysis over time of why I won’t engage with Red’s content on this topic. That included me saying that I don’t trust his sources because of my experience of arguing with him about this in the past. Other’s a free to follow up his links and make their own decisions.
You don’t like my critique of his politics, fair enough. But I haven’t been abusive. In fact I would day that this whole round of gender politics on ts has been remarkably free from abuse.
There is nothing wrong with me or anyone critiquing Red’s position. We do that on ts every day, why not in this situation?
@jcm
Every study done in this area has been controversial. And when you drill into the details what you find is that there are essentially three kinds of interaction:
1. One partner inflicts one way abuse on the other
2. One partner initiates, the other responds in self-defence
3. Both parties pretty much go at it hammer and tongs equally
This complicates how we view the situation a lot. When you add in verbal abuse and humiliation it gets even more complex.
which tend to underestimate the magnitude and effect of domestic violence perpetrated against women.
Again no-one wants to minimise the fact that male violence causes more harm. I’ll keep saying this over and over because pixels are free and I can type fast. Your point is redundant, I’ve already emphatically stated it many, many times and yet no-one seems capable of noticing this.
So, in most cases women perpetrating IPV deaths were primary victims themselves.
Yet interestingly when men perpetrate IPV deaths absolutely no defense of provocation or any justification is ever permitted.
But certainly where deaths are concerned, men are the by far the dominant perpetrators, no argument … yet crucially it is not 100%. Women too murder their partners. Same-sex partner violence is also thought to be rising.
This is proof that violence is not totally determined by the fact of gender alone. Abuse occurs on a spectrum, and while males unquestionably dominate the worst end of it, there is no evidence to suggest that women are exempt from their share of it either.
Therefore there must be an underlying root cause that is common to all human experience.
And that just proves – nothing. In fact, it’s moving the goal post from domestic violence to deaths caused by domestic violence. Different category, different measure.
Ummmm, if someone moved the goal posts ’twasnt me – I used the same evidence from the report quoted by Bob, so not sure where this critique comes from.
What I think it illustrates is that you need to have a more indepth knowledge of the figure you are quoting, otherwise you can do more harm than good.
You’ve got a smart guy, RL, who has personal experience with DV as a victim, and who is willing to engage with you and with other commentators on TS in an articulate way.
But you know what, fuck that, he’s clearly not trustworthy on this issue because he says things which confront the mental model you’ve built up around DV, and because you believe that your own basic premise is solid enough that you can dismiss him as you already have the answers that you want.
So his entire input and life experience gets *POOOF* invalidated in a single moment – and my input too even though I personally know how violent Kiwi women can be.
Instead, you’ll just create your own definition and own paradigm of what DV affecting males is all about, and the rest of us simply get to buy into it or not.
Well, good luck with that, because both RL and I know that while you, and some of the other women who are commenting on this issue have some of the most important answers and insights, you still only own a fraction of what is required.
The concept that men need or want the support of feminists or feminism in order to change themselves for the better, or that feminists or feminism has any validity in determining or defining what is good for men, or that feminists or feminism can describe what men are lacking and then act to help change the well being of men, is utterly unacceptable.
It is as ridiculous and outrageous as suggesting that women need the support, approval and contribution of men in order to change and improve who they are.
Poppycock. This the third time of writing? How can you be a man in this world and not be a feminist?
Also. No-one has berated or challenged reds account of his experience of DV. What is challenged is the deficiency of understanding he exhibits with reference to the underlying drivers of DV. I mean, fuck, he takes the most valuable frame of reference – patriarchy – and just flat out dismisses it. Having dismissed that whole analytical framework out of hand, he then turns to studies and figures, a lot of which are twisted (and discredited) stats produced by overtly misogynistic fucktards to back his assertion that females and males are on some kind of level playing field when it comes to violence. We ain’t!
And that, just in case your entertaining the idea, isn’t me hating on men or projecting any type of self loathing. But I do despise that set of social norms that have grown up and that can be said to reside with the concept of patriarchy. And I despise the way that culture impacts on men and women both directly and indirectly or via intermediaries.
I don’t pretend to know the numbers on this. But I’d be curious to know how many women who abuse their partners were themselves previously subjected to abuse. Because misdirected revenge that springs from events in previous relationships or situations is cause for using the framework of patriarchy to understand why some women are abusing their partners…it’s not a reason to throw the framework away on the grounds that it doesn’t seem to apply to the here and now of a given abusive situation.
Really?
Well if its such a valuable and powerful frame of reference, then let’s see the highly insightful and effective paths forward that this awesome analytical framework gives our towns and neighbourhoods about DV.
At least with a Marxian analytical framework, the workers are shown real ways out that they can do for themselves.
Its a long thread Bill you may have missed when I said this above at 4:11pm
The term ‘patriarchy’ while useful at one time has become another barrier. As many people have already said, in the bigger picture patriarchy harms men almost as much as it does women. It’s more about social hierarchy, gross inequality and unjust exploitation than it is about gender. It forms the basis of the greed based, unconstrained capitalism that oppresses virtually all of humanity in pretty much equal measure.
Again as I said, feminism has had a LOT of vital and interesting things to say about patriarchy. Really.
But when you read someone like Jared Diamond who neatly traces the origin of it back to the invention of agriculture, the need to defend territory, the need for disposable males as soldiers, the need to control female breeding to have plenty of replacements, the resulting intensification of hierarchy and inequality, economic models based on slavery and exploitation … it all looks more and more like class war than gender war.
Now of course historically feminism has a proud heritage of righting legal and structural inequality that was an inherent part of the slave/serf economies. But in a society where all women can vote, go to work in any job of their choosing, enter any relationship they want, and leave it at their choosing, enter into any legal contract, start any business they want, travel and live pretty much as they wish …. the idea this is a brutal repressive and literal patriarchy doesn’t quite live up to the label any more.
What instead feminism now confronts is male behaviour. And is now unhappy that men have all gotten with the program. What many men feel, but struggle to articulate is a sense that “what you are calling ‘patriarchy’ smells pretty much like the shit I have to put up with everyday myself”. As I said before; patriarchy harms most men almost as much as most women.
Now crucially this does NOT dismiss the experience of patriarchy as women experience it. But it does suggest a better way to reframe it so as both genders get it.
Jared Diamond – I’ve read some of his stuff – is in the same boat as any other person looking to the past and trying to figure it out. They are stuck within current frameworks of reference and so, in the end, can only tell stories. Now, some of those stories might seem more plausible than others, but all of them are chock full of projections from the here and now into an unknown and largely unknowable past.
Red, if you’re looking to pit an economic understanding against a gender understanding, then seriously, go and read this excellent post from a wee while back by ‘stargazer’.
http://thestandard.org.nz/intersections/
What a load of fucken bollocks.
When study after study shows the same thing then you pretty have to take it as a given. And, no, those studies have not been discredited.
You’re right Draco. I should, of course, have written “stats and figures”, not studies and figures.
Hi Bill – your comments above make a lot of sense. Pity the guys who are reading them cannot take them on board.
Patriachy does seem to me to be a valid framework to use in this discussion.
It is as ridiculous and outrageous as suggesting that women need the support, approval and contribution of men in order to change and improve who they are.
Yes. When the feminists demanded the right to define what was important to them, to frame gender issues entirely on their terms, they forgot that men might equally demand the same right as well.
Of course their response was ‘well you are all the bad guys so you don’t get that right’. And we said ‘well actually we AREN’T all the bad guys’
And the women reply “we never said that, we just want to hold all men accountable as a class for the actions of a few’. And so it goes.
Then the MRA types said ‘fuck you, we’re going to determine our own narrative anyway’. The women screamed ‘misogynists!’ and on it goes.
Oh well … I’ll finish here by repeating something I said above; that in the end the path through this shitstorm will only be found when both genders start trusting each other again. And then helping each other to be be the best we can.
I’ll put it this way. We all know that men cause more harm. It’s largely a fact of our greater strength and crap socialisation in an intrinsically violent society.
But tell a man that his greater strength is a gift, tell him it is his duty to use if safely, tell him it makes him a better man to be responsible for using this gift wisely … then you have a framework most men will respond to.
And then ask yourself, who is that most men will listen to most, that they will do almost anything to please, if not the women in their lives they mostly want nothing more than to love and cherish?
Yes. When the feminists demanded the right to define what was important to them, to frame gender issues entirely on their terms, they forgot that men might equally demand the same right as well.
Red. What’s with this ‘the feminists’? Do you really think that feminist thought and understanding is the exclusive preserve of women? I mean, my experience of patriarchy is substantially different to that of women, but it’s not separate.
Of course their response was ‘well you are all the bad guys so you don’t get that right’. And we said ‘well actually we AREN’T all the bad guys’
I only ever met one woman who called herself for being a feminist who hated men…I was the only man in a room of about a dozen feminists at the time. And you know what? The feminists in the room didn’t want a bar of it. (That was in a house the evening before a day of feminist workshops many years back in England…mostly anarcho feminists from memory, pretty light on the liberal feminist front and I only wound up being in that house by accident).
And the women reply “we never said that, we just want to hold all men accountable as a class for the actions of a few’. And so it goes.
I’ve never had a feminist attempt to hold me accountable for the actions of others (with the one isolated exception I’ve mentioned above)
Then the MRA types said ‘fuck you, we’re going to determine our own narrative anyway’. The women screamed ‘misogynists!’ and on it goes.
So the MRA types basically justify their shit off the back of their pre-existing prejudice.
Oh well … I’ll finish here by repeating something I said above; that in the end the path through this shitstorm will only be found when both genders start trusting each other again. And then helping each other to be be the best we can.
Again. I’ve never (with that one exception) found distrust – in relation to what we’re discussing – to be any kind of an issue.
I’ll put it this way. We all know that men cause more harm. It’s largely a fact of our greater strength and crap socialisation in an intrinsically violent society.
If society is intrinsically violent then it follows that no configuration of humanity can be anything but violent – and that’s simply not true. there are reasons why this society is violent. But you’re apparently loathe to analyse it.
But tell a man that his greater strength is a gift, tell him it is his duty to use if safely, tell him it makes him a better man to be responsible for using this gift wisely … then you have a framework most men will respond to.
Hail the almighty? Really??
And then ask yourself, who is that most men will listen to most, that they will do almost anything to please, if not the women in their lives they mostly want nothing more than to love and cherish?
And they all lived happily ever after in a patriarchal wonderland. Fan-fucking-tastic.
Do you really think that feminist thought and understanding is the exclusive preserve of women?
It is according to many of the comments I’ve read here. But that isn’t an answer to what you quoted anyhow.
I’ve never had a feminist attempt to hold me accountable for the actions of others
Try reading weka up above.
http://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-12052016/#comment-1173238
Last sentence. Maybe I misread it.
But you’re apparently loathe to analyse it.
See above @7:48pm. Acknowledge it’s only a very scratchy attempt, but loath? No.
Hail the almighty? Really??
And they all lived happily ever after in a patriarchal wonderland. Fantastic.
Again the overt sneering and personal abuse is coming from who?
Frankly what are you expecting from me when you behave like this?
I already read Weka’s comment earlier. You might have noted I asked her to clarify one small part – which she did. She was giving a rundown of MRA stuff….not a run down of men’s attitudes. Is that where you went off track?
Well, what kind of response do you expect to an appeal for supposed superiority be acknowledged, accepted as truth and encouraged/rewarded? I wasn’t sneering at you. I was being contemptuous of the idea you were peddling. Look. If you happen to have a partner who is consensually submissive in aspects of your relationship, then all power to you both. But you can’t put that expectation or that template ‘out there’ as though it should be a norm and not expect some ‘less than enthusiastic’ responses.
“I’ve never had a feminist attempt to hold me accountable for the actions of others”
Try reading weka up above.
here’s what I said,
It then uses those strawmen to push theories that don’t hold men accountable as a class.
That means that men as a class are accountable for the privilges that their class is afforded. In the context of this conversation it also means that men as a class need to step up and change male violence, not because all individual men are responsible for the actions of other individual men, but because men are the ones that can change their own culture as a whole.
Nothing, I repeat nothing, in what I have said suggests that Bill is responsible for another general man’s violence. IMO he does have a responsibility to take action against male violence in general, and I see him doing that in this thread.
Likewise I will hold Pākehā as a class accountable for racism in NZ. Or the non-disabled accountable for the shit that disabled people have to go through just to live their lives. Not because non-disabled people are bad, but because they have power that disabled people don’t.
So, yet another example of your failure to even understand the basic arguments made by feminism, and to misrepresent my views. On and on it goes. Your views on feminism are so twisted from what feminists believe and you continue to assert that your views of feminism are more valid than those of feminists. It makes sense then that you insist that I don’t know what I mean elsewhere in the thread. There’s no way past that.
@weka
IMO he does have a responsibility to take action against male violence in general, and I see him doing that in this thread.
I’ve absolutely zero problem or argument when you frame it like that.
But still nothing said about women taking responsibility against female violence in general. Yes it’s less physically damaging and way less visible, but it emotionally it’s every bit as harmful.
Feminists have spent a lot of energy and got a LOT of oxygen demanding men take responsibility to change; yet the slightest hint from men that maybe women might want to examine their own camp too, gets viciously shouted down.
As for the rest of your comment, it’s patronising and condescending. All you do is tell me how ignorant and twisted I am, making the issue personal rather than adding to the conversation. You barely manage to omit the word misogynist. It’s typical of the bile feminist direct towards men and it’s taking you nowhere.
@Bill
Look. If you happen to have a partner who is consensually submissive in aspects of your relationship, then all power to you both.
Again the grotesque misrepresentation. It’s truly amazing what people will project. Actually my partner is a successful and capable business person in her own right and is naturally assertive and bossy when it suits her. She’s much better at organising people than I am, and has fine strong opinions of her own. It is why I love her.
But while you sneer, the fact remains, regardless of any imaginary templates you want to make up, almost no-one enters into an intimate relationship with a picture in their mind of hitting, kicking, beating or killing this person they love. No-one (apart from maybe the psychopaths) walk down the traditional marriage aisle in the hope that one day they can get to kick the shit out the person they are about to be joined with.
So when it does all end up in hospital, refuge or court surely it is worth asking ‘what went so badly wrong?’
In all this debate it is so easy to lose sight of this truth, that most people, most of the time are fundamentally good. And when they are not … it is more often the stuff of tragedy than malice.
That’s it from me. I’m sick of seeing my name on the sidebar for the time being and I’ve other things to get on with.
“the taboo of female-against-male domestic violence does need to be addressed”.
Yes – I would agree Bill, but isn’t it time that men took up that issue for themselves – just as women in the past have taken up the issue of domestic violence and worked to bring it out into the open, and to provide safe shelters for those women and children it affects.
Edit – I see that Weka above answers this in more detail.
I didn’t write that quote you’re attributing to me. Anyway…
okay. scanned back through the comments. Bob wrote that.
jenny explainations of factionalism above, we ran out of levels for reply
Hi all, I would like to suggest that part of the tension in this discussion is that we have a head and a heart debating and in that, it can be hard to see common ground
I applaud your approach gsays and several decades ago i would have said the same.
In my experience those who set themselves up as saviours of the victim’s often gain a sense of personal entltlement and feel justified in using unethical means to get what they are convinced is owing to them, This manefests in dishonest and manipulative communication as was the case here. It is a form of violence and does create tension. In a domestic setting it is domestic violence. They themselves are convinced that because they are doing it for the victims is must be OK
Quite frankly I dont know how to get through to them. The only times i have observed a meaningful change from this behaviour is if they are by circumstance required to accept responsibility for some harm they have caused, but generally it can be blamed on the oppressors so it dosnt happen often. Thus are despots made from the best of intentions.
That bag being flaunted by Judith was on Sale at the Warehouse I think. $20.50
So what?
So you and her shouldn’t frequent the same shopping malls James.
James, if true it’s actually a big plus for Judith Collins. Surprising.
I thought you were taking the piss ianmac but you were being literal?
Just kidding Colonial Viper.
My photo under the heading “gullible.”
Its crocodile.
Ironic as she talks a croc of s…
Oh wow so good, http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11637631 Raybon Kan “Meanwhile, in another romantic comedy, Fairfax and NZME seem to be dating. So one media firm was eyeing up another, yet the media were caught by surprise. What do we expect? The media were in a lock-up watching The Bachelor.”
Well I can skip most of this stuff. Same old, same old. The difference between the sexes and violence and bad behaviour etc. 105 comments!
Did anyone write about anything else on here? I haven’t time to look and see if there is any original thought or amusing satire.
I just read your recently suggested link about “commonism”. A very good read but I terribly missed one hugely important aspect or dimension, which seems to be left out of most socio-political discourse. Possibly the very last sentence hides a suggestion of a hint …
Incognito
Right I will have another look at that commonism piece and see what the dots you leave behind you refer to.
As to the quote above, yes to thinking about what we are fighting for (and it is a fight, not a skirmish against the powerful-money-materialism-crazed and their naive bunnies in the headlights, and is likely to be a fight to the death – of people elsewhere, or closer – our vulnerable towns and supply systems, our extended families, us, our known planet – which will become the place of the ants which I think have the life systems to survive in places).
But thinking who ‘we’ are. There isn’t time to think, argue and analyse that in depth. The ‘we’ have to be the people who will step forward and do something of value in building capacity, sustainable, friendly community and retaining as much kindness as possible, despite ever harsher conditions. Those who self-select to act, must seek out other people who can combine thinking, reflecting, comradeship and action and together work for worthy practical positive outcomes. The others are just, literally, time-wasters. In The Day of the Triffids, those who wake in the morning after the night-sky show, are blind and shocked and feel their way along the walls to the downstairs lobby hoping for help and guidance, and mill round in circles there.
That is what is happening here in the world right now, we can see but we can’t process intellectually what we see and so won’t take any steps to defray the disaster to come. What a future. Dire. And we are aboard the Titanic. Some survived from that – and one of them was in the company that built it. But it wasn’t his fault was it? The problem was over-confidence, hubris on everyones part, especially captain and crew. A very human failing. Perhaps that is why the human race is failing.
Thanks greywarshark.
I will certainly have to re-read it again as it was rather long & dense at such a late time at night.
I think you’re probably right about everything you wrote although I personally dislike using ‘military’ terminology. I prefer to see it as (part of) “the human struggle” (Darwinian) to figure out who we are, what is the purpose (meaning) of life, and all those other pesky little questions that won’t go away 😉
The only thing I’d argue about is the tension between acting (now) and thinking (later). IMO we’re destined to do (repeat) the same things (mistakes, or, in your words “mill round in circles”) if we rely on short-term or so-called fast thinking (à la Kahneman). The human condition requires holistic approaches, which also means that actingthinking have to be(come) complementary rather than separate steps in the process.
Popper made a similar argument, I believe, when he discussed (piecemeal) social engineering and planning & politics: small steps with feedback loops along the way and continuous adjustment. That said, I’m not sure that his methodology/philosophy is applicable to major social crises. He contrasted this with Utopian engineering, which he was less keen on, to say the least … Perhaps that’s more like the urgent action that you’re referring to?
Do we need good or better leaders, self-selecting activists and/or thinkers, or do we try something completely different and new?
From a liberal framework it dangerous to say that because men commit more severe family violence that we should have rules or campaigns that single them out. Because if you can do that how do you deal with the significant differences in statistics between cultural groups and socioeconomic levels?
And from a pragmatic framework we currently have a situation where male – female violence is basically unacceptable (most people will actively intervene, which is good) and female to male violence is largely acceptable (at least slaps and some punches – almost no one would intervene). This means a little effort to discourage F-M assaults could have a large effect while M-F assaults are the sort of thing that considerable social pressure has not been able to weed out.
And of course those that see violence are likely to be more violent so reducing this has other benefits.