web analytics

Daily Review 12/06/2015 #CampbellLives

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 pm, June 12th, 2015 - 27 comments
Categories: uncategorized - Tags:

Protest class war

Slightly redesigned in support of #CampbellLives.

Daily review is also your post.

This provides Standarnistas the opportunity to review events of the day.  The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Don’t forget to be kind to each other.

27 comments on “Daily Review 12/06/2015 #CampbellLives ”

  1. maui 1

    It took an Australian to stand up for our rights and our nature (our kauri), good on him. The scary thing is he could have been jailed for doing what’s right.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11464234

    • weka 1.1

      Vernon Tava was his lawyer (recent GP co-leader candidate). They’re both working from the politics of Nature Rights. This is going to be raised more and more.

      Mr Tavares, who remained up the kauri for three days in March, said he stood by his actions.

      “It was only through my action outside the law that this tree was able to have a voice,” he said.

      “Because the tree, and the rights of nature, has no standing in a court room in New Zealand, my lawyer was not able to speak for the rights of nature or the rights of that tree so I had no option but to plead guilty in this case.”

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/276093/kauri-campaigner-convicted-of-trespass

    • mickysavage 1.2

      I have had the pleasure of meeting Michael and a more genuine decent human being you could not hope to meet. Strange that standing up for nature should be criminalised.

      • Lanthanide 1.2.1

        He was criminalised for trespassing, not “standing up for nature”.

        Just like the guy (Bruce Emery) who stabbed a teenager that tagged his fence was criminalised for “manslaughter”, not “protecting his property”.

        The courts don’t have any problem with people “standing up for nature” (whatever that means). They do have problems with people trespassing on private property.

        • mickysavage 1.2.1.1

          Weird. He set up home in an ancient tree hopeing to save it. He did not stab someone.

          • Lanthanide 1.2.1.1.1

            And yet he broke the law.

            Are you ok with people who break the law, as long as it’s a law you don’t agree with? Or does it depend on the circumstances? Slippery slope…

            Thankfully, this is why judges have discretion when it comes to convicting, as well as sentencing. The woman who accidentally killed her kid in the hot car was convicted but received no (judicial) sentence.

            • weka 1.2.1.1.1.1

              The point is that the law doesn’t allow for people to protect nature. If it did, then what Tavares did wouldn’t be criminal.

              And yes, some laws should be broken, where they are immoral or are causing harm. This is how society changes and becomes better.

              • Lanthanide

                The law allows for people to protect nature as much as they want, while doing so *within the law*. That’s more or less a tautology.

                The law doesn’t allow people to do whatever they want using whatever means they want.

                In this case whatever-they-want means “standing up for nature” and whatever-means-they-want means “trespassing”.

                Other such ways of “standing up for nature” would be to “murder everyone who comes within 10m of this tree”.

                Now clearly, murdering people in order to protect a tree is a disproportionate response. But it’s still as much of a crime as trespassing is (in the binary sense of “law is broken” or “law is not broken”). Which again, is why judges and courts have discretion when it comes to conviction and sentencing. I think the correct balance was struck in this case.

                Most people break laws most days, but they’re not charged or convicted for them.

                • weka

                  You’ve misunderstood. It’s not about peple doing whatever they want (no matter how much you try and frame it that way).

                  Other such ways of “standing up for nature” would be to “murder everyone who comes within 10m of this tree”.

                  I think I agree with you now that you don’t know what standing up for nature is.

                  You think the law should be inviolate. I don’t. Slavery, women’s suffrage, land rights, medical marijuana etc etc etc laws got broken and rightly so. Sometimes the people are ahead of the law in terms of societal change, and nature rights is one of those times.

                  • Lanthanide

                    “I think I agree with you now that you don’t know what standing up for nature is.”

                    Considering I never claimed that I don’t know what standing up for nature is, you can’t “agree with me” that I don’t know that. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, though, always a sign of an honest and fair debate.

                    I’m simply arguing against micky, who said he was criminalised for trying to protect nature. He was not. He was criminalised for trespassing. There are other ways he could have tried to protect nature that would not have involved trespass. Whether they would have been as effective in achieving his outcome is irrelevant to the point I am making – he broke the law for *trespass* and was convicted for *trespass*.

                    You can try and dress it up with whatever other motives and euphemisms that you want, but it doesn’t change what he did, the law he broke, or why he was in front of the court.

                    Like I said before, this is basically a slippery slope – you approve of someone trespassing to protect a (supposedly) ~500 year-old tree, but you may not approve of someone trespassing to protect a 2-year old tree. Yet both are trespassing. It’s up to the courts to take all factors into consideration when convicting and sentencing someone, not the public.

                    “Slavery, women’s suffrage, land rights, medical marijuana etc etc etc laws got broken and rightly so. ”
                    If you’re trying to say the existing laws were broken, that lead to law changes, then yes, that is what happened. I agree that this man broke the current law by trespassing. What may or may not happen in the future with regards to environmental protection laws is rather irrelevant to the case at hand – he was convicted and criminalised for the act of trespass, nothing else.

                    • weka

                      You said, upthread, The courts don’t have any problem with people “standing up for nature” (whatever that means).

                      I think it’s clear that you don’t know what it means. Which is fine, it’s going to be a new concept for a lot of people. I just think this conversation might have been more productive if we’d started with that (what it means).

                      I get the rest of what you are saying, but it’s essentially a literalist argument that misses much of the intent of what other people are saying.

                    • Lanthanide

                      @ weka: I used the term “whatever that means” in the sense of “there are many things that can count as “standing up for nature” and I’m not going to try and limit it to a discrete list”.

                      “I get the rest of what you are saying, but it’s essentially a literalist argument that misses much of the intent of what other people are saying.”

                      Or rather, other people are missing that I am making a literalist argument (as I often do), and are trying to argue general points against me. Then they claim that I’m redefining the debate.

            • Weepus beard 1.2.1.1.1.2

              The woman who accidentally killed her kid in the hot car was convicted but received no (judicial) sentence.

              -Lanthanide

              Rubbish. She was discharged without conviction. If you are going to be so sure about goings on with regard to the law, I suggest you do be sure that you have your facts straight.

        • maui 1.2.1.2

          In the court’s eyes most forms of protesting are illegal.

          • Lanthanide 1.2.1.2.1

            Yip, that’s true. But it’s also true that most protesters are never convicted of anything.

            Edit: actually, the majority of protests in NZ are peaceful protests in public places, for example the protests against the TPP during Prince Harry’s public walkabouts. Nothing illegal about them. Nevertheless, the vast majority of protesters are never convicted.

            It’s a pity that micky seems to think he was convicted for “standing up for nature”, and not for trespassing, which is what he was actually convicted for. And plead guilty to, btw.

            I thought micky was a lawyer?

            • maui 1.2.1.2.1.1

              Marching down streets and blocking traffic, loud shouting (breaching the peace) I think would all classify as illegal – although I don’t know the ins and the outs of the law on this.

              His intent was to stand up for or protect a tree, his intent wasn’t to access someone else’s property (although that is what he did). So in my view the law doesn’t relate to the actions that he took, they’re like an irrelevant framework. Say if on your property I can see you’re pumping raw effluent into the creek I should be able to go over there and shut that shit down. I shouldn’t have to ring 5 different numbers and eventually wait for someone to address the problem via the law.

              • Lanthanide

                “Marching down streets and blocking traffic, loud shouting (breaching the peace) I think would all classify as illegal – although I don’t know the ins and the outs of the law on this.”

                Yes, large organised marches are likely to be breaking laws. However large organised marches generally notify the police first, who in turn choose whether to charge the protesters.

                The particular example I gave of the TPP protests during Harry’s visit didn’t involve any marches (I don’t think), instead they were limited to sign waving and gathering at the public events Harry was attending. As such it is unlikely any laws were broken.

                “Say if on your property I can see you’re pumping raw effluent into the creek I should be able to go over there and shut that shit down.”

                So you’re in favour of vigilantism.

                “I shouldn’t have to ring 5 different numbers and eventually wait for someone to address the problem via the law.”

                That’s how things are done in a law-abiding society. Society extends privileges to particular institutions to enforce the law, and in all but extreme cases, it is those institutions that should carry out the enforcement.

                Also your example is not really an analogy, as the ‘pumping of raw effluent into a creek’ is almost certainly illegal, so for you to take potentially illegal action to prevent further commission of a crime could sometimes be warranted by the circumstances. In this tree case, the owners of the property had the legal right to fell the tree and it was the protester that broke the law by interfering in the exercise of their legal rights on the property they own (hence, trespass).

                • Sans Cle

                  Were members of the Christchurch public, who went in with bare hands to rescue people out of collapsed and damaged buildings on the afternoon of Feb 22nd 2011 guilty of trespass?
                  I don’t think the question was raised, as people were doing compassionate and humane deeds.

                  • Lanthanide

                    People are only guilty of crimes if found to be so by a court. It’s not for me to say whether people who entered other private buildings in the aftermath of the CHCH earthquakes are guilty of anything.

                    • Sans Cle

                      Agreed – the practice of the law is dependent on the court and police systems. However the action or motivation of the potential perpetrators can be similar. I raised the Chch example as moral compunction leads people to behave in certain ways: Chch to save lives. Michael Tavaeras had same drive to save the life of a tree. I think the law doesn’t apply equally in all situations, and that raises more issues. The right to life vs the right to private property.

                    • dukeofurl

                      First its not a crime. The trespass isnt listed in the crimes act.

                      The council can be a complete travesty, I know a homeowner who had all consents for a new house, it had a set of stairs leading to basement but while under construction was threatened with dire action unless the consented stairs removed by concreting the opening in floor.
                      When it suits them, they will still ignore any consent6s

  2. Draco T Bastard 2

    Talking about Labour:

    The philosophy was that as the money was created for productive purposes no loss could occur if it were not repaid from one department to another. Meanwhile, during construction, tradesmen had been paid wages which had been spent and absorbed into the economy. But it was solid money backed by the creation of assets. People had been kept fully employed while the government built homes for the people.
    Tom Skinner;
    “While Joe spoke I began suddenly to grasp the Labour philosophy related to the creation of credit. It set me off thinking about money and what it meant to the economy. The Government, figuratively speaking, could rub a state house debt out of the books because a building stood in its place. But money created by the banks in order to gain profits in the form of interest was the other side of the coin. It was unproductive, inflationary creation of money if unmatched by equivalent goods and services…..”

    Labour have done the Chicago Plan before and it worked. Time to do it again but this time we need to keep it.

  3. Tautoko Mangō Mata 4

    The brightest spot of the day- Don McGlashan’s uplifting music on rnz.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/nzlive/audio/201758202/nz-live-don-mcglashan

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • Twenty highlights of 2020
    As we welcome in the new year, our focus is on continuing to keep New Zealanders safe and moving forward with our economic recovery. There’s a lot to get on with, but before we say a final goodbye to 2020, here’s a quick look back at some of the milestones ...
    2 weeks ago

  • Cook Islanders to resume travel to New Zealand
    The Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern and the Prime Minister of the Cook Islands Mark Brown have announced passengers from the Cook Islands can resume quarantine-free travel into New Zealand from 21 January, enabling access to essential services such as health. “Following confirmation of the Cook Islands’ COVID ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Supporting communities and landowners to grow employment opportunities
    Jobs for Nature funding is being made available to conservation groups and landowners to employ staff and contractors in a move aimed at boosting local biodiversity-focused projects, Conservation Minister Kiritapu Allan has announced. It is estimated some 400-plus jobs will be created with employment opportunities in ecology, restoration, trapping, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Border exception for some returning international tertiary students
    The Government has approved an exception class for 1000 international tertiary students, degree level and above, who began their study in New Zealand but were caught offshore when border restrictions began. The exception will allow students to return to New Zealand in stages from April 2021. “Our top priority continues ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Tiwai deal gives time for managed transition
    Today’s deal between Meridian and Rio Tinto for the Tiwai smelter to remain open another four years provides time for a managed transition for Southland. “The deal provides welcome certainty to the Southland community by protecting jobs and incomes as the region plans for the future. The Government is committed ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • New member for APEC Business Advisory Council
    Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has appointed Anna Curzon to the APEC Business Advisory Council (ABAC). The leader of each APEC economy appoints three private sector representatives to ABAC. ABAC provides advice to leaders annually on business priorities. “ABAC helps ensure that APEC’s work programme is informed by business community perspectives ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Govt’s careful economic management recognised
    The Government’s prudent fiscal management and strong policy programme in the face of the COVID-19 global pandemic have been acknowledged by the credit rating agency Fitch. Fitch has today affirmed New Zealand’s local currency rating at AA+ with a stable outlook and foreign currency rating at AA with a positive ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Additional actions to keep COVID-19 out of NZ
    The Government is putting in place a suite of additional actions to protect New Zealand from COVID-19, including new emerging variants, COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins said today. “Given the high rates of infection in many countries and evidence of the global spread of more transmissible variants, it’s clear that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • 19 projects will clean up and protect waterways
    $36 million of Government funding alongside councils and others for 19 projects Investment will clean up and protect waterways and create local jobs Boots on the ground expected in Q2 of 2021 Funding part of the Jobs for Nature policy package A package of 19 projects will help clean up ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • New Zealand Government acknowledges 175th anniversary of Battle of Ruapekapeka
    The commemoration of the 175th anniversary of the Battle of Ruapekapeka represents an opportunity for all New Zealanders to reflect on the role these conflicts have had in creating our modern nation, says Associate Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Kiri Allan. “The Battle at Te Ruapekapeka Pā, which took ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Better care for babies with tongue-tie
    Babies born with tongue-tie will be assessed and treated consistently under new guidelines released by the Ministry of Health, Associate Minister of Health Dr Ayesha Verrall announced today. Around 5% to 10% of babies are born with a tongue-tie, or ankyloglossia, in New Zealand each year. At least half can ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Prisoner disorder event at Waikeria Prison over
    The prisoner disorder event at Waikeria Prison is over, with all remaining prisoners now safely and securely detained, Corrections Minister Kelvin Davis says. The majority of those involved in the event are members of the Mongols and Comancheros. Five of the men are deportees from Australia, with three subject to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Pre-departure COVID-19 test for travellers from the UK and the US from 15 January
    Travellers from the United Kingdom or the United States bound for New Zealand will be required to get a negative test result for COVID-19 before departing, and work is underway to extend the requirement to other long haul flights to New Zealand, COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins confirmed today. “The new PCR test requirement, foreshadowed last ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • PM congratulates New Year Honour recipients
    Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has added her warm congratulations to the New Zealanders recognised for their contributions to their communities and the country in the New Year 2021 Honours List. “The past year has been one that few of us could have imagined. In spite of all the things that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • David Parker congratulates New Year 2021 Honours recipients
    Attorney-General and Minister for the Environment David Parker has congratulated two retired judges who have had their contributions to the country and their communities recognised in the New Year 2021 Honours list. The Hon Tony Randerson QC has been appointed a Companion of the New Zealand Order of Merit for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • New Year’s Honours highlights outstanding Pacific leadership through challenging year
    Minister for Pacific Peoples Aupito William Sio says the New Year’s Honours List 2021 highlights again the outstanding contribution made by Pacific people across Aotearoa. “We are acknowledging the work of 13 Pacific leaders in the New Year’s Honours, representing a number of sectors including health, education, community, sports, the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Supporting seniors to embrace technology
    The Government’s investment in digital literacy training for seniors has led to more than 250 people participating so far, helping them stay connected. “COVID-19 has meant older New Zealanders are showing more interest in learning how to use technology like Zoom and Skype so they can to keep in touch ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Additional COVID-19 tests for returnees from higher risk countries
    New virus variants and ongoing high rates of diseases in some countries prompt additional border protections Extra (day zero or day one) test to be in place this week New ways of reducing risk before people embark on travel being investigated, including pre-departure testing for people leaving the United Kingdom ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago