Daily review 14/04/2023

48 comments on “Daily review 14/04/2023 ”

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1. SPC 1

   14 April 2023 at 6:02 pm

   Sunak clarifies the Starmer stammer.

   the right – 100% of women do not have a penis

   the left – 99.9% of women do not have a penis

   Preparing the way for their Home Secretary to look at their law (some people were allowed to identify as transgender woman while with a penis under their manged process).

   In an interview with the website Conservative Home Sunak said that while the government needed to have "compassion, understanding and tolerance for those who are thinking about their gender" this could not interfere with the rights of biological women.

   He also hinted that the government was likely to amend the Equality Act, introducing explicit legal protections for biological women in same-sex spaces such as changing rooms and hospital wards.

   "As a general operating principle for me, biological sex is vitally fundamentally important in these questions," Sunak said. "And that's why we need to make sure, particularly when it comes to women's health, women's sports or indeed spaces, that we're protecting those rights and those places."

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/uk/300853806/uk-prime-minister-rishi-sunak-says-that-no-one-with-a-penis-could-be-considered-a-woman

   One wonders if those born female and who identify as transgender men will face the same biological sex determinants – and if so whether they use women's spaces (they won't be able to compete in women's sports because of their male hormone use).
   • bwaghorn 1.1

     14 April 2023 at 6:23 pm

     Yip very embarrassing for our pm ,when a toff tory proves to be braver and or more honest
     • SPC 1.1.1

       14 April 2023 at 6:42 pm

       I doubt it is bravery, more likely politics. The opposition was/is sleepwalking to victory and this policy is a disruption factor. It also is within conservative tradition, so his own base will support this course, while it will sustain dissent/division within the opposition.
       • bwaghorn 1.1.1.1

         14 April 2023 at 6:56 pm

         Well if you don't know what a woman is ,are you intelligent enough to be in government???🥲
         • Sabine 1.1.1.1.1

           14 April 2023 at 9:45 pm

           Wrong question.

           If you are to scared to define women and you don't have a 'preformulated' answer, what else might scare you too much so that you need that preformulted answer. Who 'formulate' the anwsers to -pre asked- questions?

           And if he were to say 'anyone who identifies as' he would be seen as someone who is fast and lose with his female voter base but kind and affirming to his trans base.

           And if he were to say that women do indeed have penises, or that males have cervixes, or that lesbian have dicks – any of these answers would be a lie in the eyes of everyone based in reality but the queer community which is based in self id and fantasy.

           So really the question is what is the end game of this 'can't define women, won't define women, and to scared to define woman. And why is that? Why is it that every western country is so busy pretending that females/males, woman/man are interchanging terms without any meaning to it. Why is that.
           • gsays 1.1.1.1.1.1

             14 April 2023 at 10:38 pm

             Ya gotta feel sorry for the PM's spin doctors, comms team and strategists. All those photo ops and column inches, all that work portraying Hipkins as the good old steak and cheese pie eating Hutt boy. All that effort undone by the awkward, cringe worthy silence when asked "What is a woman?".

             Every pie consumer at my local bakery could answer that question in a cholestrol laden heartbeat.
             • Sabine …

               15 April 2023 at 7:23 am

               Personally i am happy the question was asked. It showed who these people are. They could have answered 'the previous PM identifies as one, my birthing person identifies as one / is one" anything would have been better then admitting that no one has send this question to the Comms team and thus it was/is not 'pre-answered by your Comms team' and if you get questions that are not vetted you don't have answers. Or worse even, non of these highly paid people have been paying attention to what is happening in th UK/US/Canada and thus was ill prepared.

               And it also diminishes the idea that '50% of our team are women'. as that is now a meaningless statement, leading to the questions, All it is is meaningless drivel of can we have both sides, we are not gonna say what a woman is, but we pretend that we have 50% of them in our team.
             • bwaghorn …

               15 April 2023 at 6:38 pm

               Surprised he's got kids I'd he can't identify what makes a woman a woman. 😉
   • Sabine 1.2

     14 April 2023 at 9:41 pm

     Transmen do sports at a high level, you will however not find them in the 'mens' teams as they would not stand a chance. They play on female teams and compete against other females.

     That is the irony in it all, that female sport becomes the dumping ground for all queer people as it is easier then creating a new division. If this is unfair towards women – human females, oh well, those who should care don't and if the women – human females have issues with that they can always quit, right?

     https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/25-transgender-athletes-you-should-know/14/
2. weka 2

   14 April 2023 at 6:58 pm

   Bookmarking. Unconfirmed, but thread on the actual Nazis organising the Stand By Your Woman events this weekend

   https://twitter.com/paparoa3/status/1646662634396323841
   • Shanreagh 2.1

     14 April 2023 at 8:41 pm

     The messaging:

     'Real women can procreate

     women=biology

     MEN supporting WOMANS Identity'

     Doesn't seem very hateful to me.

     Presumably Paparoa are certain these are actual Nazis. If not certain then they may have affected their ability to make a living in what are quite low paid jobs such as music and the visual arts. The transactivists have already got it wrong once already going after the people who were waiting to speak in Albert Park on 25/3.

     Of course people are right to be cautious if not to avoid being targetted by Nazis as well as transactivists.

     I have not found where in Wellington they are meeting but if the trans mob are staying away I might go to watch, being very careful.
     • weka 2.1.1

       14 April 2023 at 9:08 pm

       there's plenty of evidence for concern

       https://twitter.com/aniobrien/status/1646649676396130304

       Thread,

       https://twitter.com/wekatweets/status/1646641033969823744
       • Sabine 2.1.1.1

         14 April 2023 at 9:54 pm

         Might drive by and have a look at the Neo Nazis.
   • Molly 2.2

     15 April 2023 at 7:46 am

     It should be realised that his has no connection to #LetWomenSpeak, other than using that event and its media exposure as something that they can benefit from.

     Women attending will most likely be props for the real intent #LetMenPosture.

     This takeover of women's rights is avoided at #LetWomenSpeak events by the deliberate decision to have women-only wardens, although anyone can attend.

     The police advised the NZ wardens on 25 March to face inwards, which is a ridiculous strategy, and which I think increased the risk of security and crowd management failure.
     • Sabine 2.2.1

       15 April 2023 at 8:34 am

       I still have a hard time seeing neo nazis in tokoroa, i doubt they would live a good life there. And fwiw, no proof has been offered by anyone, even Ani is quite clear that it 'appears' to be a case of 'we are not sure'. She makes it quite clear that their values don't align, which is in my book a better reason to not go then 'ohmgoshtheremightbenazis'.

       But then, womens rights are totalitarian suppressive rights, and they are inherently transphobic which makes them akin to National Sozialismus.

       But I can see the Hanna Tamaki Party and spouses rock up and gather votes.

       In the meantime women – the human female ones, still don't dare to gather and speak about the things taht are being done to them in the name of kindness.
       • Shanreagh 2.2.1.1

         15 April 2023 at 8:55 am

         Good points Sabine.

         In the meantime women – the human female ones, still don't dare to gather and speak about the things taht are being done to them in the name of kindness.

         My values don't align whether this event is run by fundamentalist churches or neo nazis.

         There were neo nazis at the parliamentary protest. I am not sure if they are increasing in numbers or not. I had thought much of the nazi 'stuff' had been proscribed and I think many Australians thought that it had been until the Let Women Speak event in Melbourne.
         • Sabine 2.2.1.1.1

           15 April 2023 at 9:51 am

           One of the 'nazis' of Melbourne is the son of a police officers. Again, do i believe that there are Neo Nazis, yes, i am German, i whakapapa to Germany, and i have had ancestors that were in the Hitler Youth, in the Wehrmacht, and who got medals for brithing lots of children. So really, i have opinions on that.

           But this is not what is happening here. This here is a rally planned for men by men, they might be on the right spectrum of politics – act, national, democracy now, blablablbah, they might be religious, Tamaki church or any other of the evangelic small home churches, but chances are they are not National Sozialisten, nor even just a white supremacist.

           Don't go there if your values don't align, that works well for me, or go there to see what the fuss is about from a distance, but unless someone brings concrete proof that these people are Neo Nazis, no one should label them that.

           Unless of course anyone who speaks up for women and their rights to dignity, safety and respect, and of course political representation is now a Nazi/white supremacist, even if they are not white. Then you start having some issues, cause what next? Cause there is always a next.
       • weka 2.2.1.2

         15 April 2023 at 9:08 am

         I still have a hard time seeing neo nazis in tokoroa, i doubt they would live a good life there.

         they don't have to be in Tokoroa, the events are organised nationally online. The more visibility they get, the neo-Nazis and the far right talking trad values can recruit disenfranchised men. Any disenfranchised men in Tokoroa?

         And fwiw, no proof has been offered by anyone, even Ani is quite clear that it 'appears' to be a case of 'we are not sure'.

         Forget about proof (that will probably come after the event, and consider the evidence. There are now multiple screenshots of the Telegram with actual Nazis in them. Yes, it might be them co-opting, but consider this. If actual Nazis turn up at one of the events, and look like they involved in organising or protecting women, rather than having their own protest over there, do you think that will help women's rights activists in NZ or make things harder for them?

         I've seen screenshots taken by someone I know and trust who was in the SBYW Telegram, and that includes the conversation asking if Arps would be there, and other comments about known Nazis.

         Add that to Counterspin, and it's reasonable to think that in the absence of the organisers distancing themselves from Nazis, they are in fact ok with the Nazis, or are Nazis themselves. The onus is on them to sort this out.

         Anyone who thinks there are no neo Nazi/white nationalist/far right set of movements building in NZ really hasn't been paying attention for the past few years, nor the longer years of the rise of fascism in the English speaking liberal countries.
         • Sabine 2.2.1.2.1

           15 April 2023 at 9:34 am

           And Kellie Jay Keen was / is also a Neo Nazi, and Mana Wahine Korero is also Nazi, and all the women that showed up were also Nazi, and the old women who had her head bashed in was a Nazi who got what she deserved, and we are just lucky that the frenzied mob of nice kind and lefty progressive people protesting 'let women speak' in NZ did not stomp anyone to death, cause literally we might would have to ask if the good and kind and progressive people of NZ – media, politics, academia and their blind followers are the baddies.

           Weka, if Neo Nazis were to show up at Tokoroa – one of the places these poeple want to show up, they would not have much fun.

           Again, my money is on Hanna Tamaki – the party, Tamaki the Church, and some other similar groups. And unless anyone, you or Ani or anyone, actually points to a solid proof that indeed these rallies are held by neo nazis people should not promote that idea.

           Cause the last time, NZ almost killed women for the audacity of a. knowing what a women is, and b. insisting that they are human beings with rights. Something that not a single person on the left currently feels like they could say, lest they get the "Nazi" treatment. And NZ got lucky they did not kill the old women that got bashed, the old dude that got ellbowed by a Drag Queen, or Kellie Jay Keen on her way out. Cause clearly, that would have been some bad bad advertising for this country.

           But keep yelling Nazi Nazi in a crowded theatre and then wonder why witches are burning at the stake.
           • weka 2.2.1.2.1.1

             15 April 2023 at 9:46 am

             If you can't tell the difference between calling terfs Nazis, and actual neo Nazis, I can't help you.
             • Sabine …

               15 April 2023 at 10:01 am

               Women were called Nazis. Weka. Terfs are women.

               Nazi is just a new form of insulting women and their allies who insist in material reality.
               • weka …

                 15 April 2023 at 10:08 am

                 again, if you cannot tell the difference between TRAs saying terfs are Nazis, and left wing women pointing to the actual Nazis, I can't help you.

                 Denying the existence of actual Nazis continues to conflate actual Nazis and women in the minds of the public who are watching.
                 • Molly …

                   15 April 2023 at 2:54 pm

                   Those who promulgated the word association of "TERF" + "Nazi", knowing clear connections are unevidenced, contributed to an environment where women were silenced on 25 March.

                   I have little patience for this type of 'support' for women.
       • Molly 2.2.1.3

         15 April 2023 at 9:17 am

         The void left by "progressive" men supporting #LetWomenSpeak will either remain empty or be filled by others who consider women speaking to be a concept worth defending.

         I'm just not interested because it is an event run by men, for men. Although, it may give insight into the concerns men have. There is unlikely to be violence because the joyous celebrators of #DoNotLetWomenSpeak are taking a well earned rest on their laurels:

         https://twitter.com/transliberated/status/1646682011283886081?s=20
         • Sabine 2.2.1.3.1

           15 April 2023 at 9:40 am

           I'm just not interested because it is an event run by men, for men.

           that i can agree with.

           My values don't align.

           that too is a good reason.

           anything else is fearmongering, slurring and pushing a lable on people that might be worse then just far fetched, and all that without proof.
         • Shanreagh 2.2.1.3.2

           15 April 2023 at 10:04 am

           Good points Molly.

           Run by men for men, or by the fundamentalist church which is a play space for mysogyny.

           I should clarify my point about proscribed. I had thought that salutes and dressing like Nazis had been proscribed, from the little reading about the Vic State govt response I understand that it thought this too. Apparently it is not.

           I know that the sale of Nazi memorabilia is forbidden here in NZ as Dunbar Sloane had to with draw items from sale in a recent auction.

           https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/wellington/131715304/concerns-raised-at-sale-of-disturbing-nazi-military-memorabilia-and-replicas
3. joe90 3

   14 April 2023 at 7:40 pm

   I guess that's a big no to self-policing.

   /

   https://twitter.com/verge/status/1646588861529706497

   https://www.theverge.com/23681875/substack-notes-twitter-elon-musk-content-moderation-free-speech
4. SPC 4

   14 April 2023 at 8:23 pm

   Why gaining power turns you into an actual Cookie Monster

   https://bigthink.com/the-learning-curve/gaining-power/

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz9u-oG3BgM
5. Joe90 5

   14 April 2023 at 11:42 pm

   Read the room, minister.

   https://twitter.com/seahorse4000/status/1646563802337378308

   https://twitter.com/jrgmarwood/status/1646439138428878848
6. weka 6

   15 April 2023 at 9:55 am

   More tweets about #LetMenPosture and Stand By Your Woman.

   https://twitter.com/wlaotearoa/status/1646975483060576263
   • Sabine 6.1

     15 April 2023 at 10:23 am

     I'm wrong, Kyle isn't organizer, he's just going Different Nazis are organizers

     bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

     Honestly someone should DM these guys and tell them to go with 'Terfs', Nazi in NZ has no more meaning then Woman. Neither one can be defined unless it is the progressive left that does the defining, and then anyone can be one, unless they are not.
     • weka 6.1.1

       15 April 2023 at 11:54 am

       https://twitter.com/wlaotearoa/status/1646975103098585088

       we all have a line. I know where mine is.
       • Sabine 6.1.1.1

         15 April 2023 at 12:08 pm

         They got it wrong so feel free to hold your wrong line for all its worth.

         This now sounds like the disinformation project that thinks that 1.8 million are 'captured' by something without explaining whom these people are and by what they are captured.

         I understand that you are a self identified lefty and thus think you are on the right side of history, so let me make this clear, on this issue the far right and the far left go hand in hand together, and both will leave you a women without words to describe yourself and your reality, will leave you without places to congregate and discuss your political reality, and will see you abused if you even just try to raise issues that impact on you.

         the ones will call you faschist, nazi, terf, the other will call you chattel and property. the end result is the same.

         And just as a reminder, i know Nazis, we invented them.
         • weka 6.1.1.1.1

           15 April 2023 at 9:03 pm

           https://twitter.com/KatrinaBiggs2/status/1647026123262529536

           https://twitter.com/kelvin_morganNZ/status/1647112109778669573

           That's actual, known neo Nazis.
           • weka 6.1.1.1.1.1

             15 April 2023 at 9:08 pm

             Looks to me like a few things happened.

             1. the people organising SBYW were naive and didn't deal with the neo Nazis in the Telegram group

             2. some known neo Nazis organised the Chch event.

             I don't think women will retain our rights if we don't make clear lines between gender critical positions and the far right, gender conformity groups co-opting LWS etc.
         • weka 6.1.1.1.2

           15 April 2023 at 9:16 pm

           I understand that you are a self identified lefty

           no. I have left wing politics. It's not an identity.

           and thus think you are on the right side of history

           no, I don't. Stop making up shit about me. If you do that again I will moderate. What you just did there was take a GC meme about anti-terfers and applied it to me even though it as nothing to do with me. This is the second time this week someone has done this and it has to stop. You cannot put people in the box you want them to be in so you can run your argument, because it just destroys debate.

           so let me make this clear, on this issue the far right and the far left go hand in hand together

           So make the argument Sabine. Point to the far left fascists. I already have my own analysis of left wing authoritarianism, I just don't see the people I think you are talking about as being left wing so much as neoliberal. Atm you are just throwing out generic stereotypes. Put some effort into your analysis and improve the debate.

           and both will leave you a women without words to describe yourself and your reality, will leave you without places to congregate and discuss your political reality, and will see you abused if you even just try to raise issues that impact on you.

           And? I already know this about the anti-terfers, so why are you lecturing me?

           the ones will call you faschist, nazi, terf, the other will call you chattel and property. the end result is the same.

           Here's the difference though. If what you call the far left can be tempered, that brings us back to progressive norms and socialist politics. The far right being moderated leaves us with NACT.
7. Anker 7

   15 April 2023 at 11:02 am

   • I am inclined to agree with Sabine over this.
   • However anyone who is alt right (and I must admit, I am not entirely sure what that means and/or the likes of Tamaki will not do us any favours. The tras and the msm will use this against us.

   As a movement, I have no idea what we do about this. We have no control over others organising rallies or turning up to ours.
   • weka 7.1

     15 April 2023 at 11:55 am

     The far right are fascists anker.
     • Sabine 7.1.1

       15 April 2023 at 12:11 pm

       As are the far left. Two peas from the same authoritarian pod that has no fucks to give about children and women.

       also please define faschismus: https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism
       • weka 7.1.1.1

         15 April 2023 at 6:37 pm

         who are some of the NZ left wing fascists that are akin to people like Kyle Chapman or Philip Arps?
       • Psycho Milt 7.1.1.2

         15 April 2023 at 10:01 pm

         Both authoritarians, but not both fascists. Fascists describes the far-right version. If you compare the fascist states (Spain, Italy, Germany) with their left-wing equivalents (USSR, PRC, DPRNK), they have in common murderous totalitarianism but little else.
         • weka 7.1.1.2.1

           15 April 2023 at 10:57 pm

           excellent explanation
         • Sabine 7.1.1.2.2

           18 April 2023 at 11:26 am

           The people that got killed by Stalin, Franco, Mussolini, and Hitler are all equally dead.

           Left and right is just something some people hold on to in order to pretend to be 'other' and thus 'better'.

           My totalitarian regime is totes better and kinder then yours. Now shut up lest we call you Nazi. Or Transphobe. Or bigot. Or hold a sign that says 'suck my dick' or 'suck my transcock' or 'shut up bitch'.

           No difference between the both. And deadly to minorities of all kinds, and generally really shitty for women – human females. Either they be private property or they be public property, but they be undefinable and thus undefendable and not worthy of respect in a democracy cause …..property/chattel/an idendity that anyone can be.

           So go on hold on to your academic distinctions and understand that neither the right nor the left will come to the aide of human females.
     • Belladonna 7.1.2

       15 April 2023 at 8:01 pm

       Which far right? I've frequently seen ACT referred to as 'far right' on TS – and I certainly don't see them fitting into the following definition

       A fascist is someone who supports or promotes fascism—a system of government led by a dictator who typically rules by forcefully and often violently suppressing opposition and criticism, controlling all industry and commerce, and promoting nationalism and often racism.

       https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fascist

       The part that seems to set fascism aside from other forms of dictatorship is the 'controlling all industry and commerce' (violent suppression of opposition, nationalism and racism are dime-a-dozen among dictatorships)

       Even then I'd think that Stalin (for example) with his state control of industry and commerce – would fall under this definition. Perhaps it's that fascism was (initially) more effective in managing the economy than communism ever was.

       And possibly the charismatic leader (although, I can't think of a single current example of a party or group which is described as fascist, which actually has a charismatic leader).

       More in-depth discussion here – but it's still not clear exactly how fascism differs in form from other violent, repressive dictatorships – one commentator even says trying to describe fascism is like nailing jelly to the wall!

       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
       • weka 7.1.2.1

         15 April 2023 at 9:01 pm

         fair point about ACT. I said something to non-NZ people that other day about ACT being far right, and then realised it made no sense outside of NZ pol. ACT aren't fascists, they're RW libertarians.
8. Anker 8

   15 April 2023 at 1:31 pm

   • Agree far right and far left are racist.

   didn’t know if the Act party were considered alt right. That’s why I said I wasn’t sure who was considered alt right
   • Shanreagh 8.1

     15 April 2023 at 5:30 pm

     ACT party are not alt right!

     In NZ, ACT is to the right of the centrist but right National Party.

     National Party is to the right of the centrist but left Labour Party.

     Alt Right from Oxford Languages https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-en/

     (in the US) a right-wing ideological movement characterized by a rejection of mainstream politics and by the use of online media to disseminate provocative content, often expressing opposition to racial, religious, or gender equality.

     Southern Poverty Law Centre

     The Alternative Right, commonly known as the "alt-right," is a set of far-right ideologies, groups and individuals whose core belief is that “white identity” is under attack by multicultural forces using “political correctness” and “social justice” to undermine white people and “their” civilization.

     https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/alt-right
9. Anker 9

   15 April 2023 at 9:48 pm

   Good to have some clarity about Stand by your women events re Nazis.

   The organisers well intentioned but Chch Nazis (real ones) slipped in and ran the event.

   Hope the Stand by your women guys can sort this out.

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