Daily review 16/05/2019

Written By: - Date published: 5:30 pm, May 16th, 2019 - 169 comments
Categories: Daily review - Tags:

 

Daily review is also your post.

This provides Standardistas the opportunity to review events of the day.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Don’t forget to be kind to each other …

169 comments on “Daily review 16/05/2019 ”

  1. A 1

    Just listened to RNZ's coverage of MSD's systemic breach of privacy.

    Particularly the disabled woman saying that she couldn't have a relationship unless her partner supported her. This increases risk of abuse in the relationship. She thought that that this might be a breach of her human rights…because every person deserves a loving relationship… good point. Surely a caring government would change this?

    • bwaghorn 1.1

      Why the fuck dont the just give people the same benefit whether they are single or not .

      It would cost fuck all more and save huge amounts of time and lower stress levels .

  2. A 2

    It's just so sad nobody with the clout to stop this is listening

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ch7lmZmUkg

  3. McFlock 3

    So, I've been reading "The Health of the People" by David Skegg. Basically arguing that public health has been neglected by NZ governments for decades, being sidelined by the MoH focus on personal health services.

    An interesting case study is Skegg's recollections of the creation (and quick elimination) of the Public Health Commission in the 1990s. When it started looking at alcohol and tobacco and food, nat ministers started opposing the PHC. Bill Birch telling Skegg "The Dairy Board and the Wine Institute are friends of ours; we work very closely with them." Maurice Williamson yelled expletives at Skegg. Then the nats closed down the PHC before repealing the legislation requiring the PHC to exist.

    Tory corruption is next level.

    • ianmac 3.1

      During the 90s when National was in control, the Health system was steadily underfunded. A partial charge was introduced for patients undergoing treatment. As the Hospitals began to seriously fail, talks were underway to get USA private medical providers to take over. The idea was that clearly the Public Health System was broken so we need Private Providers.

      It nearly worked then surprise surprise during the recent reign of National, they tried again with serious underfunding. In Britain that is exactly what is happening now. Lucrative areas are now privately run to profit USA providers.

    • To be fair, if I were a cabinet minister and some quango wanted to fuck with my alcohol and dairy intake, I'd yell expletives at them too.

      • McFlock 3.2.1

        Seemed to be more the election donation intake that was the cause of the agitation.

        • Psycho Milt 3.2.1.1

          Oh, right, of course. For a Tory, cash flow counts for more than… well, everything, really.

          • McFlock 3.2.1.1.1

            There are some full-on descriptions in the book. The PHC CEO gave a speech in one of the regions. The PHC chair was summoned to a minister's office after the minister had been supplied a transcript of the speech by a liquor company in Auckland and the PM had received a phone call from the liquor industry.

  4. gsays 4

    Ok, there may be a few inconsistenses in this but I have to get it out of my system.

    I am going to link bullying (in bullying free week of all times), mens behaviour and the willing lack of entertaining an idea from left field.

    I got part way Open Mike then a good old fashioned TS pile on broke out.

    " With pinkies and a full tub of lube, of course "

    " What a tit. " " vacuous twerp "

    "take a day off fuckwit"

    " same stupid fucktard decision "

    etc etc.

    then someone who should now better, you will remember them from the school ground, chipping in with wry observations, stoking the flames in case they were to die down.

    This is NOT (there you go, the beloved bold, underlined and italisized) a desire to revisit the vacination/abortion issues, it is a plea to reflect on what went on.

    No matter how you view it there was misogynist behaviour albeit perhaps unintended, there was bullying and there was a total lack of willingness to consider an idea, perhaps challenging but by no means illegitimate.

    • JohnSelway 4.1

      " there was misogynist behaviour albeit perhaps unintended "

      Can you quote this supposed misogynist behaviour?

      And if by anti-vaccination you mean “perhaps challenging but by no means illegitimate” then no, it isn’t challenging and is illegitimate.

      • greywarshark 4.1.1

        gsays

        Please list your concerns. No-one was getting bullyed. Any appearance of standover tactics were just countering stand-over tactics.

        Who do you think was the winner and why?

        … there was a total lack of willingness to consider an idea, perhaps challenging but by no means illegitimate.

        Do you mean illegitimate as in Alabama? The whole thread was out of skew, so I don't know how you could consider anything of value in it after having received the knockout blow by the loudmouth, of whatever gender.

        • gsays 4.1.1.1

          " No-one was getting bullyed." Sorry mate, cant agree with you there.

          The abusive emotive language was from one side of the exchange.

          My concerns were outlined above.

          As to a 'winner', from my view, a lot of people looked like losers.

          The idea that was refused to be considered was of pro choice ONLY applying to womens reproductive rights.

        • One Two 4.1.1.2

          No-one was getting bullyed.

          You actually initiated the pile on.

          Any appearance of standover tactics were just countering stand-over tactics.

          Excuses and an apologist.

          Are you ok?

      • gsays 4.1.2

        Re read the thread for the mysogyny.

        Sabine telling mothers to fuck off, The Al1en's dumb twats, both are: " Further reports from Psychology Today cite that a true misogynist has disdain for women who defy their "rules." from Psychology Today.

        "And if by anti-vaccination you mean “perhaps challenging but by no means illegitimate” then no, it isn’t challenging and is illegitimate."

        No, it is not what I mean

        • JohnSelway 4.1.2.1

          I don't think Sabine was specifically telling mothers to fuck off and only mothers.

          You're really reaching here.

          • gsays 4.1.2.1.1

            quite clear then, reread the thread.

            " ( i had to kick out a women with her daughter covered in pustules – but she is no longer contagious – fuck you women i don't give a shit take your kid home and stay there until she is clear or you produce a doctors certificate that she is clear now) "

            • JohnSelway 4.1.2.1.1.1

              I don't think you can call mysogyny on a single post that uses a woman as the example. Does Sabine have a history of this because using a single example wherein a woman is used does not a mysoginist make

              • gsays

                Awesome, some head pin dancing.

                • JohnSelway

                  Sorry, I just don't think that is enough to claim the whole thread is an example of misogynist behaviour.

                  I would kick out a women with her daughter covered in pustules – but she is no longer contagious – fuck you women i don't give a shit take your kid home and stay there until she is clear or you produce a doctors certificate that she is clear now.

                  And I'd kick her dumb shit husband out too

                  • gsays

                    " Sorry, I just don't think that is enough to claim the whole thread is an example of misogynist behaviour"

                    I made no such claim.

                    Apologise for not what understanding what I wrote if you feel remorseful.

                    You asked for the mysogynist behaviour, I gave you two examples.

                    Perhaps in this non bullying week it would be better to ask the husband (who, by the way, doesn’t exisit in the example) to please leave. No need to double down on the violence.

                    Edit: run out of reply buttons:
                    “I’m not sure what I should feel remorseful about…?”
                    You used the word sorry, did you not mean it?

              • Sabine

                no Sabine has her own mind, speaks it and some people take offence at that.

                Sabine also does have very little use for group think.

                And Sabine has told some of the posters here that she does not believe that their poo smells nice and will continue to do so.

                • And is also a wildly unlikely target for accusations of misogyny or bullying. I always enjoy your comments (in full awareness that the feeling may not be mutual).

        • The Al1en 4.1.2.2

          The Al1en's dumb twats, both are: " Further reports from Psychology Today cite that a true misogynist has disdain for women who defy their "rules." from Psychology Today.

          Parents who don't vaccinate their kids are, in my opinion, dumb twats, male and female, and both make the same fucktard decision. If it’s disdain, it’s for those pro disease parents.

          There's not an ounce of misogyny anywhere in that if it applies equally to both sexes.

          https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-16-05-2019/#comment-1617336

          • gsays 4.1.2.2.1

            I have learnt on TS that to use female genitalia as a term of derision is a no-no.

            More pin head dancing to come perhaps?

            • The Al1en 4.1.2.2.1.1

              Use dumb cocks, dicks, tools, love pumps, meat axes or penises, if you like. I won’t be offended.

              Careful you don’t fall off that pin head.

              • gsays

                Mate you are the only one on the dancefloor.

                • The Al1en

                  I've done none of the things you've said I've done. It's all in your imagination.

                  I'm quite happy with my conduct and foresee no blow back coming my way.
                  Is this really the hill you want to die on?

            • Gabby 4.1.2.2.1.2

              Why are you lying gsprays?

        • Rosemary McDonald 4.1.2.3

          Sabine telling mothers to fuck off

          That was truly unbelievable.

          The rest of it gsays…yes they pile on…like the bully gangs, and none of them actually bother to read or watch fully the information provided to support a point of view. Back in the day it was considered manners to at least read what the other person has provided if one was going to argue against it.

          And actually familiarize oneself with the entire discussion before parachuting in with the derision and abuse.

          Case in point was lprent with me the other day…https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-14-05-2019/#comment-1616570 when he said…

          That is just complete daft bullshit. Lying like that really doesn’t help your argument – to me it associated you with word “nutter”.

          I have no idea which disease you’re talking about. However you’re dead wrong about getting lifelong immunity from catching any disease.

          ..and even when I responded with supporting evidence about the disease which was the topic of the discussion….he offered no apology, or no hint of retraction.

          It was at that point that I realised that it was futile expecting to have anything approaching a reasoned and evidenced- based discussion about contentious issues when the Top Man sets such a standard.

          Good on you gsays for raising the issue….

          • gsays 4.1.2.3.1

            Yep gotta say yr exchange with lprent disappointed me too.

            I thought it got totally debunked from a cursive look at the Immunisation Advisory Centre.

            Reeked of bullying too, the power imbalance thing.

            • Rosemary McDonald 4.1.2.3.1.1

              He found my Achilles heel…I hate it when I am accused of lying.

        • Sabine 4.1.2.4

          stop right here,

          i did not 'tell mothers to fuck right off'

          i made it clear that i respected the choice of people to not vaccinate their children.

          and then i made it clear that i would tell – in fact told a women (who may or may not be the actual mother of that child) to take the sick child – who was covered in pustules as if she was sick with mesels or chicken pox and take her out of my business and take her home – after said mother / women said "oh surely you won't mind she is not longer contagious'.

          this is not quite 'tells mothers fuck of'

          However i do reserve the right to tell pepole to leave my business if i believe that their actions might endanger myself, my staff or my customers.

          but then maybe you are not interested in polite conversation, maybe you are literally just interested in creating a shit storm for shits n giggles yourself.

          so please go find a tree, sit under it and enjoy the full moon.

          • Rosemary McDonald 4.1.2.4.1

            Sabine. Go back and read what you wrote. Maybe, since English is not your first language, you did not intend to sound as… horrible… as you did.

            Yes, you can choose who you have in your shop…it happens all the time…https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105363920/residents-weigh-in-on-auckland-cakers-refusal-to-create-cake-for-samesex-couple but you'd better be damn sure you have all the facts because, well, discrimination.

            • Sabine 4.1.2.4.1.1

              English is not my first languae its my third. correct. Now that you got that bit out of you – do you feel better?

              Nope, a child covered in pustules might be contagious. I actually put that think up about Mumps to simply show that you or any other non vaccinated person can be contagious without knowing, and that you don't need a lot to get a many people ill in what can be a devastating illness to some.

              Your right to be against vaccines and to refuse them does not give you the right to endanger others.

              I made it clear that i do not have an issue with people not vaccinating their children, but that i do not approve of them parading their sick children about town.

              This women – if you must know, after all you seem curious and seem to read a lot that is neither said nor typed between the lines, came in to my shop – a food business that is heavily regulated – a costly thing too if you care at all, with a child covered in pustules. Poor thing might actually will have to live with facial scars for the rest of her life, but who cares , she has no rights – only her parents have right? The women says we are bored at home so i am taking her 'window shopping', and surely you don't mind she is no longer contagious. Like , wow , Lady stop right here…….

              At that point i told that women ' that i do mind indeed, take your child and leave, now. go home. – and she did.

              cause Fuck right there lady, you do not get to parade your sick child about town, endangering others who might don't want to get sick or have their babies – that are yet to young to get vaccinated get sick, or the people have chemo therapy (my shop is next to a clinic that offers these type of treatments and i have quite a few that come for a moment of escape and to just breathe).

              and that is something i feel strongly about. Maybe because i have had many illnesses throughout my life, maybe because i have had friends that died of aids, have hepatitis C because past lovers did not state that they were ill, maybe just simply because i believe taht your right to choose does not over ride my right to choose.

              and i am done with you Rosemary. Literally done. You are looking for a fight and i can't be bothered with you.

              As before, please kindly find a tree, sit under it, and enjoy what ever you might enjoy.

              • Paul Campbell

                Yes, people forget that before vaccinations sick kids were kept away from everyone – I was home with Rubella (German Measles) for 2-3 weeks as a kid some time in the 60s, why? because women in the community were having kids with birth defects if they were exposed, it wasn't an academic exercise, it was mums and kids at Plunket who were dealing with the fallout.

                So if you have unvaccinated kids yes you do take on the responsibility of your actions, that includes staying home with the kids for 2-3 weeks when they get ill, like my Mum had to

    • gsays 4.2

      And since we need a bit of light relief, I will see Martys Cockneys and raise him these Teesiders.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLxLmFhROqY

    • francesca 4.3

      I agree Gsays

      Far too much aggresssive language .It's a real turn off and totally detracts from whatever the writer is trying to express.

      • gsays 4.3.1

        That's the bit that is really disappointing.

        For everyone that writes on this site there are _____ many folk reading.

        I saw a lot of willy waving on OM, from a couple of folk I thought higher of.

        'Anti Vaxxer' there you are, get in that box.

        My nephew is a paranoid freak railing on FB against vaccinations, still citing the debunked Wakefield autism/mmr theory.

        There are a myriad of reasons to not want to vaccinate without going near that discreddited crock.

        I was at the GPs yesty, near the end he offered me a 'flu vaccine, I told him I would rather chew tinfoil, he laughed at left it at that.

        • Rosemary McDonald 4.3.1.1

          I was at the GPs yesty, near the end he offered me a 'flu vaccine, I told him I would rather chew tinfoil, he laughed at left it at that.

          My man is in the group that has always been eligible for the free flu jab…significant physical disability, older, has undergone treatment for leukaemia etc….yet not once has he ever been offered the flu shot. And it's not that he lives in a cage and doesn't get out much…and even after an emergency hospital visit and a trip to the GP with sinus in the last couple of weeks…he still hasn't been offered the flu jab.

          They had to threaten the medical staff at Waikato Hospital to make them have flu shots…so many refused the free ones. Nurses, and doctors….funny that.

    • gsays: some people speak English as she is fucking spoke by good cunts. Rather than being offended by plain English words, instead be offended by irrationalism – that's a far worse purpose for the English language to be directed to.

      • gsays 4.4.1

        Can you do that again but pretend I'm a 6 yr old?

        I kinda missed yr point.

        • Psycho Milt 4.4.1.1

          Sure – it's upwards of a decade since I've had to phrase things for a six-year-old, but why the hell not:

          Grandma doesn't like to hear you say fuck and cunt, so please don't use those words around her. Also your teachers. Otherwise it's all good. More important: some people claim things are true when they aren't, that's much worse than swearing and don't let them get away with it.

          • gsays 4.4.1.1.1

            Ta, I had the gist of it.

            The true bit is a discussion for another day.

            As an aside: I took my then 6yr old with me to stay at a mates place in Northland in his bush block. A week later we are at my mums for dinner and the young fella excused himself with " I am going for a piss', a bit taken aback I replied 'A wee son, at Nanas we go for a wee'.

    • Tuppence Shrewsbury 4.5

      “take a day off fuckwit” is an invitation for a fuckwit to take a day off.

      Thats not bullying. If it is I’ll ask all the fuckwits round here to to stop calling that fuckwit a fuckwit

  5. adam 5

    Probably the best tweet this year. Funny, poignant, and did I say funny…

    https://twitter.com/susie_meister/status/1104141497476104192

  6. adam 6

    ON a more serious note.

    Ever thought you were being played?

    Here the wonderful Matt Taibbi with "THE TEN RULES OF HATE"

    https://taibbi.substack.com/p/chapter-1-part-ii-the-ten-rules-of

    https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-ten-rules-of-hate-rules-710-the

    • francesca 6.1

      How do I delete a duplicate statement?
      Hmmm, by editing with another statement, there must be another way
      Seriously good link Adam, maybe the best I’ve ever got off this site
      Taibbi is always worth reading

    • RedLogix 6.2

      Yes. Good link and worth thinking about. The first six rules not behind the subscribe wall are:

      1. There are only two ideas … binary thinking.

      2. The two ideas are in permanent conflict … confrontation as the default

      3. Hate the people, not the systems … reduce everything to personalities

      4. Everything is someone else's fault … abdication of personal responsibility

      5. Nothing is everyone's fault … abdication of collective responsibility

      6. Root, don't think … erase the nuances and complexities with primal emotions

      We see these game rules being played out here all the time. Personally I don't mind what part of the political spectrum you occupy, what ideas you promote … what really matters is how you argue for them. Because this is the best indicator of how you would implement them if you were ever given the opportunity and power to do so.

      Or to put it another way, if you cannot argue for your position respectfully, you cannot be trusted with the power to put it into action.

  7. greywarshark 7

    lprent

    Could you give One Two a month's dropout time? This pernicious person is destroying our ability to discuss anything without it coming back to his/her obsession. The freedom of expression of one+ is killing off discussion amongst others. I note so many don't come here now. However If you think it is because of my gloomy approach, then you can let me go for a while. Just ban me. then I can stop trying.

    By the way did any thoughts arise as to the item I wrote?

    • gsays 7.1

      Steady on grey, I have read the links that have been cited by 1 2. There is a truck load more science than has been offered up by the nay-sayers, particularly today on OM.

      If anything was being destroyed it was the position of not wanting to vacinate.

      Y'all may not agree with 1 2's position, but I am not chipper about euthanasia. I do however gain a bit of insight from reading a counter opinion.

      I felt 1 2 showed a lot of restraint today.

      Should we kick Rosemary to touch too?

      • Andre 7.1.1

        Dunno what thread you were reading, but One Two didn't put up a single link or piece of evidence on OM today that I found on a scroll-through.

        However, One Two's first comment looks very finely calculated to start a flame war, which indeed ensued.

        • gsays 7.1.1.1

          Yep, fair call Andre, about links on OM today, I was thinking of yesty's Daily Review.

          I am responding to a few different folk.

          As to starting a flame war, the language I quoted is far more inflammatory than what I read from 1 2 today.

          Joe and John in particular.

          • JohnSelway 7.1.1.1.1

            All I asked for was evidence and support for the argument. That's it.

            • gsays 7.1.1.1.1.1

              Here are your comments from a wee chunk of the discussion….

              "It could be applied to problematic users or trolls and allowed them to only make one edit every 30mins until the troll either got bored or stopped trolling.

              Would be handy to apply to someone like One Two"

              " Starting to get the feeling One Two is as high as he/she can count"

              " Wha wha wha. Same shit different day "

              "The bigotry and misogyny is all in your head. The insults come because you spout such nonsense before accusing other of bigotry and misogyny.

              No one has incited harm to others.

              It's all down to your mammoth persecution complex"

              • JohnSelway

                Why have you extracted my comments in isolation?

                The entire thread was a dumpster fire and this “”The bigotry and misogyny is all in your head. The insults come because you spout such nonsense before accusing other of bigotry and misogyny.” was in response to One Two specifically and repeatedly calling everyone misogynists and bigots without ever providing any reason for those claims.

                Yesterday Muttonbird, out of fucking nowhere, abused me in a thread that was over a day old for no reason and continued it while telling me to “be a big boy” and “not run to the mods”. So why me in isolation when it seems an endemic problem site wide?

                “No one has incited harm to others.” No one had yet One Two claimed people had – how is this abusive?

                “It’s all down to your mammoth persecution complex” he kept shouting at everyone else, calling them bigots when all any one wanted was him to back his fucking claims up. So it’s pretty much a persecution complex.

                Gsays – with all due respect, I have never had any reason to not give you any respect, I don’t think you are A) applying you judgement fairly and B) Idenitifying the actual issues in the thread.

                • gsays

                  Because I caught you in a lie.

                  • JohnSelway

                    Sorry, which lie was this? Really keen to hear this lie I made

                    • gsays

                      Really?

                      OK once more for those up the back.

                      Responding to Andre about todays OM and Andre's position of 1 2 starting a flame war, I opined that Joe and you were more inflammatory.

                      Then you @ 7.1.1.1.1

                      I quote you, not one of the bunch is looking for evidence or support.

                    • JohnSelway

                      Sorry I am failing to see the lie

          • Andre 7.1.1.1.2

            What was there on yesterday's Daily Review? Didn't spot anything on a scroll through.

            Nor was there anything significant on yesterday's OM. Sure there were a bunch of unsubstantiated assertions around holistic dentistry, but that's only going to harm suckers and their wallets. It's not going to spread harm and disease throughout the community, so it's not going to get serious pushback, just a bit of snark.

          • McFlock 7.1.1.1.3

            A few issues turn into arguments rather than debates, for a number of reasons.

            It's usually the topics that have already been debated ad nauseum, and nothing new has been added from the start.

            Then they also tend to either directly or indirectly concern really serious, traumatic, and life -or-death matters. When each side considers the other as killing children or invoting draconian dictatorship, passions run high. So that's why people get worked up.

            But as for "bullying", I think a lot of what people call bullying is a frank reaction to abuse and cowardly implications that were delivered without expletives.

            The sort of individual who constantly accuses other commenters of not thinking very well, not understanding basic issues, or even having a guilty conscience that makes them particularly vocal about sexual assault.

            Some people regard the patois of the street as being significantly less insulting than that sort of nice-language condescension and aspersion. Regardless of how intelligent or catastrophically stupid the condescending person happens to be.

            Some commenters I genuinely try to respond to and understand, even though we disagree. The type above, though, I will happily call a "piece of shit".

            • gsays 7.1.1.1.3.1

              Passions running high is merely excusing weak unnecessarily abusive behaviour.

              It was a good old fashioned pile on with a fair swag of willy waving.

              Thanks though for not invoking the currently popular moniker anti vaxer or pro plague.

              • McFlock

                It's not just vax that we're really talking about, is it?

                Assange, 9/11, vax, abortion, all of that stuff. Same shit, different day (sometimes the same day).

                Now, on any of those topics you'll get someone like Rosemary or Weka or Milt who does actually present interesting points, and on occasion have helped me change some of my perspectives.

                But there's also always some… fucking tool who links to bullshit youtube videos, barely anything at all, or random sources they don't read or understand but has a sentence they like the sound of, reiterates the same bullshit myths every time the subject is raised, and show a basic incompetence in the area of the discussion and a failure to understand the terms they throw around with an air of authority (e.g. "free fall speed" when the debris falling into the street [i.e. outside the "footprint", which is another one] is falling more quickly than the building is collapsing).

                • gsays

                  True it ain't the vax thing that ground my gears.

                  One persons tool is anothers passionate one.

                  Getting beyond 'MY' (loving the toolbar up top) view, to a commonly held consensus is what so often holds the left back.

          • greywarshark 7.1.1.1.4

            If i hear anymore on anti vaccines I will scream. I am so bloody sick of the endless backbiting about this. Totally ineffective at coming to a conclusion. If people come here and want to destroy the effectiveness of this blog for intelligent political discussion over a wide range of subjects that cast light on problems that will affect our future, then they should be banned.

            Soppy kindness isn't practical. Taking the line of 'Oh-well-ism' ie oh well he is making some good points, oh well it is unfair because it is…………..(put your favourite label about unfairness in here – suggested choices are 'racist, misogynist' sexist, ageist, mental wellnessist, disablist etc) doesn't enable discussion about important points.

            Kindness on the blog should be between people who actually care about others as well as themselves, and want to achieve real better outcomes about the things they care about. It should not be extended to those who just grandstand and fill up the posts with provocative questions and denials and confrontations – they are just filling in their time, the useless buggers. When we respond we fill up our time, which is limited, and don't get onto the things we ourselves know need to be attended to if things are to improve, or just coped with better.

            There is so much to think about, to advocate for, and such little movement from authorities, and so little time. It is such an important and short time before climate change and /or rogue countries, trying to abandon the humane rules of integrity we have painfully built up over centuries, succeed in wiping them away by devious means.

            That saying that John Lennon used but which apparently was initiated by an illustrator and writer Allen Saunders in 1957:

            "Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans".

            • gsays 7.1.1.1.4.1

              Can't argue with much of that Grey, only to add that kindness is most effective when extended to all, especially those who hold an opposing view to yours.

        • Rosemary McDonald 7.1.1.2

          Dunno what thread you were reading, but One Two didn't put up a single link or piece of evidence on OM today that I found on a scroll-through.

          I've noticed that One Two isn't providing as many links Andre, but then again they have provided all the necessary links in the past ,if you recall…oh, that's right, you're one of the commenters that flies off the keyboard with derision and abuse without actually reading the entire article.

          I think you are scared. You are frightened that if you pay too much mind to the papers and articles One Two and I have provided links to it might just poke a few holes in that safe and comfy wee shell you live in.

          • JohnSelway 7.1.1.2.1

            Rosemary, when One Two (or anyone for that matter) makes a claim, say "Drinking beer makes you blind" and you ask for a citation for that and they say "I already did last week/yesterday/in another thread" it is more than fair to ask "Can you give me that link again" and not be told "Fuck you, go find it yourself".

            That is a crude example but that is pretty much One Two's MO.

            One Two hasn’t provided anything in the way of citations for his claims so as long as he makes claims that I believe are untrue I’ll ask for evidence. That goes for anyone that makes a claim that makes me go “that sounds like bullshit, please back it up”. If you have the courage of your convictions then provide evidence for it. Just shouting about how you already have isn’t helpful to your cause

            • gsays 7.1.1.2.1.1

              And when you ask for an example and get a couple you dance on a pin, or worse, plead innocence:

              " All I asked for was evidence and support for the argument. That's it. "

              "It could be applied to problematic users or trolls and allowed them to only make one edit every 30mins until the troll either got bored or stopped trolling.

              Would be handy to apply to someone like One Two"

              " Starting to get the feeling One Two is as high as he/she can count"

              " Wha wha wha. Same shit different day "

              "The bigotry and misogyny is all in your head. The insults come because you spout such nonsense before accusing other of bigotry and misogyny.

              No one has incited harm to others.

              It's all down to your mammoth persecution complex"

            • Rosemary McDonald 7.1.1.2.1.2

              Hmmm…some folks are simply not that good at reading people are they? There used to be an excellent wee search facility here on TS…and if one was not quite sure where a person was coming from one could go back and try to find out.

              Before launching into print.

              It might be that One Two just enjoys a good old fashioned barney and knows what will set you bully boys off.

              Or it might be that they are truly committed to the issue and is intensely frustrated at being dismissed.

              • JohnSelway

                Rosemary – if someone makes a claim it isn't my job to go search out the answer. The claimant holds full responsibility to back their claims up.

                "Go find it yourself/I answered this elsewhere" is not an answer. If you made the claim and someone asks for evidence you pony up with the evidence.

                Those are the basic rules of debate, argument, logical discourse, whatever you want to call it.

              • One Two

                Rosemary..

                The conduct of that same group of guys speaks for itself…

                I'm in no way intimidated by such actions online or in real life…but they are clearly intimidated or threatened by the links which I have been been using in response to those who trigger the vaccine threads…

                I've openly stated that I would not start the threads off…but once there is comment made , most often with a derogatory and bigoted incitement to aggression of mothers and parents, I will call it out…

                In recent times, there are links and comments which I did post, such as that around the medical journals being extensions of the pharmaceutical industry etc…

                I am committed to not having additional harm and damage pushed on those who are already discriminated against, which ever side of any discussion they are on…I would equally speak up against such conduct as seen repeatedly on here, if it were aimed at the so called pro side if harm were being incited against that group…

                • JohnSelway

                  " but they are clearly intimidated or threatened by the links which I have been been using "

                  Errr, this whole thing was about you NOT providing links. This whole fucking day I have been asking you for citations and you haven't provided one.

                  • One Two

                    I don't answer to your demands…you need to get that through your head selway…

                    What is it that you believe you're achieving in keeping up the position that you should not have to search for links which I have already posted on multiple occasions…they are on this site…

                    What do you believe you are achieving in maintaining such a transparently insincere position…

                    Are you hoping that no-one else will notice how insincere and untenable your tactic is…doesn’t really matter…I saw it the day you arrived at this site and made a comment…

                    Let's see how many more times you can keep this going…

                    We can begin on the holistic dental discussion another time..as I can see how interested you are in that subject…

            • McFlock 7.1.1.2.1.3

              Especially when the same commenter gets pissy when they demand "examples and citations" and you dare to only give an example.

              • One Two

                No you're using pissy as a way to make an excuse for your own, and the conduct of the other guys here.. and you continue to do it…

                I've provided countless links, including the FDA, CDC, WHO , NVIP, VAERS et al….

                None of you are interested in the data…and simply continue to demand more evidence…

                You even managed to concede when evidence showed that the varicella vaccine leads to shingles…

                As a single example…

                • JohnSelway

                  You lost all credibility with that whole "100% of vaccines failed because my sample size of 1 failed" gibberish.

                  • One Two

                    Nah…

                    You just can't understand the simple concept, that the link Joe posted to was an advertisement for vaccine failure…

                    One vaccinated patient cohort – One patient with the mumps who was properly vaccinated

                    Perfect failure rate from the evidence J90 provided.

                    That is what is called a clue…but you don't care…that is not what you're about …. you're not interested or genuine..you're looking for an online outlet to heap your issues onto others who you see as a threat…

                    The same way you don't want to read any of the ample evidence available…

                    Your actions and comments speak to how disingenuous you are.

                    • JohnSelway

                      Same argument as “One plane crashed, therefor no planes can fly”

                      A useless vaccine which 100% vaccinated cohorts have still contacted mumps.

                      Citation needed.

                      “You’ve been explained to that the mumps vaccine is failing. “

                      Citation still needed

                    • Andre

                      One patient who was vaccinated properly, but was taking medications that are also immunosuppressive. The immunosuppressive effects of her medication rendered her vaccination status moot.

                      And yes, the quoted effectiveness of the mumps vaccinations is 88%. But even for those 12% whom the vaccine isn't fully effective, it still reduces the severity of the symptoms. So it's still a massive benefit.

                    • One Two []

                      rendered her vaccinations moot…

                      Its why immuno compromised should not be vaccinated…poor decision making..

                      Why are you still quoting stats which are flawed and faulty..

                      …it still reduces the severity of the symptoms…

                      And you're still describing vaccine failure..

                      Even if that was true..which you will have a hard time providing actual evidence for…which I already have…and the counter research..

                    • JohnSelway

                      once again One Two – your whole argument is the same as “one cars brakes failed therefore all cars are failures”

                      your argument is flawed and invalid
                      But I’d really like to see your research. Can you show me the research that says the mumps vaccine is a 100% failure?

                    • One Two []
                      • The patient was properly vaccinated – assumption is including with MMR or similar…for mumps
                      • The vacvinated patient contracted mumps
                      • The vaccine did not protect contraction of mumps in the one person cohort

                      Therefore.. the vaccine failure in the cohort evidence by J90..thanks Joe…

                      100% failure based on provided evidenced…

                      Indisputable.

                    • Andre

                      She would have been vaccinated long before developing the condition that required her to take the medication that was immunosuppressive. She didn't get a yellow fever jab for travel because of her immunosuppressed condition. It's there in the thread. Not poor decision making on her and her doctor's part.

                      Continually saying you have already provided the research and evidence doesn't mean you actually have. It's just an unsubstantiated assertion.

                      Wild mumps requires lengthy expensive hospital treatment in a substantial number of cases, and even causes some deaths. If you're calling a vaccine that prevents this nasty disease in 88% and greatly reduces the symptoms in the remaining 12% a vaccine failure, then the word failure clearly means something different to you then it does to the general public.

                      https://www.cdc.gov/mumps/hcp.html

                    • One Two []

                      You're seriously sending more links to the CDC (who are the vaccine industry.. you don't seem to know that)…

                      Yet you denied and refused to make use of the DHHS CDC FDA VAERS reporting system data you were provided…
                      You refused to use it and provided linked excuses to the CDC no less…it’s the official CDC reporting system…

                      You begged for law suits..I gave you the DHHS NVICP data…and you dismissed it…

                      Saying that legal rulings don’t ‘prove stuff’..or some lame ass nonsense…

                      No, Andre…You're continually showing yourself as disingenuous…with every comment you post on this subject…

                      It's ok Andre…your extreme bias is necessary to support decisions that you've made…and you act accordingly…

                      It changes nothing..You're still at name caller level…and the vaccine damage and death is still out there…growing in numbers every day…

                      As are the number of those who are rejecting the industry orthodoxy…

                      [Andre made a few points and provided one link. Please stick to addressing the points made and leave out all the innuendo and baggage from previous encounters here on TS as it starts to sound like a broken record. If you don’t want to address the points made by others then please refrain from making references to previous exchanges as this not helpful in any way and only starts flame wars – Incognito]

                    • Incognito

                      See my Moderator Edit in your comment @ 10:47 pm. Thanks.

                    • One Two []

                      After days and weeks of bigoted comments (not only Andre..not Andre today) and abuse…and that's the moderated comment…

                      Incognito I see the note…but I do not agree with your comment…I do respect it though..

                      Andre has done nothing but dismiss all provided links and given farcical excuses for why he can't make use of them. ..for weeks and months…excuses and name calling…
                      The previous and ample links I’ve provided to Andre…are absolutely relevant…

                      Background and context is also important…appreciate there is no way you can cover that amount of ground…

                      I could have hardly written that response to Andre any more nicely than I did..

                      [I’m not asking for your agreement, only that you respect it. However, you’re again playing the same old record here, which suggests that you either don’t understand my Moderation note or that you simply choose to ignore it thinking that you can get away with it. As I said, address the points and if you can’t or don’t want to, please stay quiet. Context is indeed very important. So, when you address the points, please include an appropriate reference (e.g. a link; that includes links to previous comments, as you have made many here), preferably with a simple explanation as to what is in the link and how that supports your point(s). Referring to ‘bad behaviour’ by another commenter(s) is not addressing the point! – Incognito]

                    • Incognito

                      See my Moderator Edit in your comment @ 11:22 pm. Thanks.

                    • One Two []

                      I have been addressing the same points raised by Andre, for weeks now…

                      Which is why the top half of my response to him is factually relevant and context…

                      Is it ok for the same disproven and refuted comments to keep being asked…should they go unresponded to…there was nothing out of place in the top half…IMO.

                      If linking to Andres nonsense will help..ok I’ll do that to…just apply the same to others best you can.

                      You know what…I'll say the bottom half could have been left off…

                      If you're going to moderate this way…while the bigotry and outright abuse goes unchecked…that would be unfortunate…

                      As said…mods are scarce these days and lots of ground to cover…but its been feral..

                      And I'm not referring to any of my comments…

                      No games. I said I respected your first note.

                      [Now you are arguing with me and trying to negotiate what you think you can get away with whilst that awful record is still playing. You are disrespecting my Moderation notes and testing my patience. Address the points and only the points when responding to comments. Last word – Incognito]

                    • Incognito

                      See my Moderator Edit in your comment @ 11:47 pm. Thanks.

                • McFlock

                  That's part of the issue right there: you regard an opponent admitting being wrong on a few points as some sort of victory for you on all points. Which is probably why you refuse to acknowledge any imperfection, be it as trivial as ironised or plaguerised.

                  So any ancillary point that could be corrected in any normal conversation ends up being grasped as some sort of proof that you're operating at a "higher level", while you waste time and effort making shit up to defend your catastrophic ignorance.

                  • One Two

                    No. You have once again misinterpreted my comment and intention. The number of times I provide corrections to yourself and others here…you then simply discard it to apply twists on what is happening or said…

                    I actually appreciate that you did concede…albeit the concession was swiftly followed with more contortions…which I quite likely pointed out …again…

                    You see, I do not view anyone as an opponent that is not how I see the world…and I certainly do not need what you refer to as victory to believe in my own assertions or perspective…

                    And you're still making excuses mate…the same way you won't even back off from calling me a rape enabling shit heel.

                    Keep excusing yourself McFlock…as I have previously said…you're too invested in the decisions that you make and are blinded by completed prejudice to those decisions..

                    That is fine…but then perhaps you should consider not involving yourself..or at least stop making excuses for your own..or the conduct of those guys…

                    • JohnSelway

                      " The number of times I provide corrections to yourself and others here… "

                      No you say you do but you don't actually.

                      Still waiting….shouldn't this be easy for you?

                      A useless vaccine which 100% vaccinated cohorts have still contacted mumps.

                      Citation needed.

                      “You’ve been explained to that the mumps vaccine is failing. “

                      Citation still needed

                    • McFlock

                      Yeah, I won't apologise for calling you a rape enabling shit heel because I still feel that in that argument you were being a rape enabling shit heel.

                      But on the shingles thing, look at what you did to actually make a fair point:

                      You made a simple, clear, explicit claim; and

                      You provided a link that actually supported that claim (and linked to the primary source for that claim). Let's contrast that with:

                      Keep excusing yourself McFlock…as I have previously said…you're too invested in the decisions that you make and are blinded by completed prejudice to those decisions..

                      That's pure invention reagrding my motivations, and is frankly quite condescending and insulting. So, in the interests of responding in kind but with brevity, go fuck yourself.

                    • One Two []

                      Yeah that you won't retract was all you needed to repeat…

                      How can you back down now…you can't you won't...

                      That illustrates your motives loud and clear through our engagements regardless the topic..

                      And even with your motivation exposed…you still have said 'para phrase'…

                      'So what.. flu vax doesn't work…50/50… whatever..ill.keep getting them'…no harm no foul…you said…

                      That is your bias mate…the motivation flows from bias..

                      And again as you say…from being a dick…your words…

                      I'd suggest that you're not particularly healthy of mind or body…and that feeds your motivation…

                      Either way it is clear to me.

                      You're unhealthy.

                    • McFlock

                      And yet as you pointed out, when I'm demonstrably incorrect, I "concede" (your word).

                      Given that my impression of you being a rape enabling shit heel was the result of you guessing at the motives of other commenters, and me telling you to go fuck yourself was also the result of you pretending that you know anything about my motivations or prejudices, maybe you should stick to claims you can support rather than diagnosing folks.

                    • One Two []

                      other commentators…

                      You called me that because you didn't like having your motives being questioned…and you decided ‘I’d never been trusted’…which you can’t possibly know…

                      Nothing I said in that exchange warranted your insult…and yes I still have it…

                      Calling me what you did should not ever be something which happens…thats how bad an insult of that severity is…

                      Even if you had unequivocal evidence thats what I am or was doing..which you didn't…that is an abhorrent insult…if you actually knew anything about me…

                      Which you don't..and you shouldn't assume anything…that's something I say alot here…

                      No need to diagnose your or anyone of those guys…

                      The comments leave little room for debate about what sits behind them…

                      [For how long are you two intending to bring up this single event? Please let it go and stick to the points in comments, not attacking each other. No more warnings – Incognito]

                    • Incognito

                      See my Moderator Edit in One Two’s comment @ 11:35 pm. Thanks.

                    • McFlock

                      [edit – argh shit, took me ages to find the thread and see where 1-2’s reading comprehension failed yet again, then post it to find a mod note lol. deleted.]

                  • Incognito

                    See my Moderator Edit in One Two’s comment @ 11:35 pm. Thanks.

                • Tuppence Shrewsbury

                  and your flawed data sources have been refuted time and time again in previous threads. Your argument has been demolished so many times yet you stick your head in the sand on the facts. Open your mind

        • James 7.1.1.3

          Ed used to do exactly the same thing.

    • Muttonbird 7.2

      It's you all responding which is the problem. Particularly John Selway who thinks he's the big man on campus.

      It was the same with Ed.

      • JohnSelway 7.2.1

        Hey! Muttonbird! Dropping nuggets of wisdom again I see.

        P.S. I AM a big man on campus.

        Hugs..

        • Muttonbird 7.2.1.1

          Overweight and grumpy about it. Makes sense.

          • JohnSelway 7.2.1.1.1

            6' 3" and skinny but your guess was good though.
            Never give up

            • Muttonbird 7.2.1.1.1.1

              You never tire of presenting yourself as a massive success. I think there's a word for that.

              • JohnSelway

                I’m not sure how my body shape is measure of success. I didn’t do anything to make it. It just is

    • Drowsy M. Kram 7.3

      Can't stand those popular Survivor reality TV shows ("Season 38, Survivor: Edge of Extinction, premiered on February 20, 2019."), and an appeal (by grey @7) to lprent to boot One Two off for a month is too close to Survivor: Lowering the Standard, for my liking.

      I have very little time for One Two's views on vaccination, and their 'You're incapable of appreciating the evidence" is irritating (deliberately, IMHO). Were it not for the unnecessarily confrontational 'pile-on'/'pile-up' responses, however, they might comment here maybe two or three times a day. Guilty of letting things get too personal myself – still learning when it's best to back off.

      Also, were it not for One Two's crusade (that's a deliberate perjorative on my part – still can't resist having a go even as I pretend to be the voice of reason), Rosemary might not have posted the link to Prof. Benn's remarkable TEDx talk, and personally I'm prepared to sluice through a lot of gravel for the occasional nugget.

      Everyone will have different thresholds of tolerance for (various) alternative views, but I'm with gsays – One Two stays. Now where did I put that immunity idol?

      • gsays 7.3.1

        Chur..

      • Rosemary McDonald 7.3.2

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5868131/

        One of the many research papers arising from the work Benn speaks about in her TED talk.

        This paper describes the tragedy that Benn speaks about with barely controlled emotion.

        Although lower mortality was expected for DTP-vaccinated children compared with the frail unvaccinated children, DTP vaccination was associated with higher mortality, particularly in girls.

        They gave a vaccine thinking to do good and many babies, especially girls, died.

        The lead on this paper is not the engaging Prof. Benn, it is this guy ( One Two linked to this yesterday)…who carries so much more gravitas than his choice of shirt might suggest.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jifp1BdmKsw

        • One Two 7.3.2.1

          Almost an hour long.

          Data manipulation by regulators and federal agencies.

          Misadventures with the Chickenpox Vaccine

          Gary Goldman, Ph.D., presents his varicella vaccine findings and whistleblower experience as a lead research analyst in the Antelope Valley Varicella Active Surveillance Project.

          He describes how a national chickenpox vaccine program altered the epidemiology of shingles, and ways in which the CDC manipulated data to conceal the unwanted outcomes that occurred.

  8. JohnSelway 8

    Well both Daily Review and OM turned into dumpster fires today.

    What will tomorrow bring? Flat Earth perhaps? Moon Landing? The Kennedy Assassination? Dogs and Cats living together in harmony?

    The mind boggles

    • gsays 8.1

      stranger still..perhaps courtesy?

      • JohnSelway 8.1.1

        I love you.

        Does that work?

      • greywarshark 8.1.2

        gsays I thought that you were an older person with commonsense. We don't come here to swap courtesies or curtsies, we come here for robust discussion, and not robust obsessions. One Two is more obsessed than is good for wide discussion, we have reacted, and there appears to be a majority of intelligent commenters who don't find One Two helpful for informed discussion. Are you sure gsays that you really want intelligent discussion or are just here for some time-filling as a new hobby?

        • gsays 8.1.2.1

          I am old enough with enough common sense to know that what you put your attention to feds it. So these "intelligent commenters who don't find One Two helpful for informed discussion." decided conciously to throw derision and abuse (yourself included) at 1 2, thereby feeding the discussion. Rather than scrolling past.

          I reckon I have a long enough history here and you have enough nous to get a handle on my motivations.

          We can disagree and still be courteous.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 8.2

      One Two might have started the dumpster fires, but they've commented 3 times on Daily Review (whoops, 8 times now – tai ho!), whereas you've made 19 comments.

      Granted, today's OM was a different story. One Two made ~34 comments, and garnered ~57 responses in the 'back and forth’ – 23 were yours; the remainder were shared among 10 others.

      'Pile ons', even when 'justified', ring alarm bells for me.

      • greywarshark 8.2.1

        Drowsy M Kram

        When you see a fire and don't do anything about it, are you complicit in the destruction it causes? One should at least sound an alarm. If the health and vitality of the blog is of interest to you, don't throw labels like 'pile ons' at someone trying to do something about misuse of freedom of speech. One Two is someone who might like to argue about that and that would be a perfect example of how complete freedom gives the option of complete tyranny and anarchy. This comment is good for another 200 comments I think.

        After which the consensus would be that I should shut up, finishing with the quote from Macbeth and Shakespeare (the bold arose from the quote in https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1896522-the-tragedie-of-macbeth

        It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”

        • One Two 8.2.1.1

          When you see a fire and don't do anything about it, are you complicit in the destruction it causes?

          How are you not holding the matches?

          don't throw labels like 'pile ons' at someone trying to do something about misuse of freedom of speech

          It was indeed a pile on..again..a venomous insult and abuse filled and potentially harmful pile on …by a group of men ..numbering, however many…against myself…

          Including yourself in the group of many…

          Where was your restraint…where did you call out the others on their abuse…not once in recent weeks have you taken any such stance…

          Joe wanted to misuse FOS…I raised a valid question..you didn't like it..so what..no more excuses for yourself or the others…

          Should I not be able to respond to the aggression through my own controlled responses?
          …you have continued to seek to have my comments censored in many ways…

          Asking I be banned..then even martyring yourself (which has seen folk banned in the past)…

          And you're still doubling down making excuses for the part you played in the insults and abuse…

          That is hardly the conduct of someone with a moral position…which is exactly what you are seeking to attain through this comment I am responding to…

          Your comments have actively targeted my own..just as you are doing once again..today.

          • marty mars 8.2.1.1.1

            oh stfu you bullshit artist. You are one sick puppy fella. Don't try and make people feel guilty to appease your twisted fantasies. The words are all there for people to read and draw their own conclusions. There is no misunderstanding or weasel words in what people think. Move on dim – put some 5g shit up or some more dentistry – that is more your level.

            • Rosemary McDonald 8.2.1.1.1.1

              What do you care about marty mars? What really, really grabs you where you live so deeply that you are almost compelled to speak out about it at every opportunity?

              You offer the odd comment with an attached link to a recent mainstream media article, briefly agree or disagree, then nothing…I'm left hanging waiting for you to share your thoughts and reasoning.

              But you are so, so quick with the insults and derision.

              You too have the option to simply ignore those who you disagree with.

              • marty mars

                Andre has your number and I agree with him. You let yourself down imo and even though I feel that I still wish you well. If you don't know what I write about it's because you are not reading or listening – I'm a broken record but not for you. I'm okay with that.

            • One Two 8.2.1.1.1.2

              You have unequivocally and aggressively endorsed the assertion of my comment…

              Indeed…you have illustrated the root cause.

              • marty mars

                can't hide from the truth… it is inevitable one two, already written, and you play your allotted part like a marionette, never knowing how or why you play the role assigned. a jerk here and a jerk there – ha so funny to watch the wee limbs move – that's your lesson for today – can you dig it?

        • Rosemary McDonald 8.2.1.2

          "…misuse of freedom of speech."

          There will be much discussion over the next wee while about what exactly that statement of your means.

          Disagreeing with what a particular person or group purports is not necessarily grounds for silencing or excluding those voices.

          One might argue that if a person does not agree with another poster then that person has the ability to simply ignore them.

          " When you see a fire and don't do anything about it, are you complicit in the destruction it causes? "

          The answer, of course, is a loud and resounding Yes!

          Some commenters here are desperate to draw attention to issues they see are of utmost importance to the health of our planet and her inhabitants and will cry Fire!!! in order to get the message out there. Because they just might see an existential threat.

          We can all choose to hear, or ignore.

          But silence because we disagree?

          No.

          • greywarshark 8.2.1.2.1

            Yes Rosemary very thoughtful. But silenced can be good when someone wants to dominate the arena. There are a lot of problems facing us, almost overwhelming. It is brutal to have someone come onto a blog that attempts to promote intelligent thoughtful discussion and take it over with their particular obsession which creates such emotional response that it smothers all other voices and concerns raised and it is of less interest to those who have valuable points and information and experience.

            The value of the blog is negated. That should not be allowed to happen. We need perhaps a Friends of Blog to protect it from such bad treatment and protect it. And the concerns I have will increase with the ability to set up computer systems inserting contentious questions such as One Two does.

            And I am trying to keep up with the machine culture. How do you know you aren't talking to a Gnat robot, an ACT dancer keeping us on our mental toes, a dreaded Russian bot etc. I thought the link below was pretty amazing.

            https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-17/voice-kids-talent-show-russian-bots-result-rigged/11122496

            https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/spot-russian-bot-social-media/

            • One Two 8.2.1.2.1.1

              It is brutal to have someone come onto a blog that attempts to promote intelligent thoughtful discussion

              Again you’re ignoring that the initial comments are most often posted by other commentators…go take a look at the track record..

              As recently as a few days ago ..an genuine attempt at flame war was started by HS…

              Where were you gw?

              And you're still seeking to censor and remove anothers ability to

              • Post comments
              • Respond to comments of others
              • Defend ones own position to an onslaught

              You are demanding censorship when you should be demanding those who use aggression, insults and bigoted tactics which are harmful…desist..instead you join in…

              As for the Russian bots…

              Democrats in America are what you're also looking for

              Democrats fake Russian Bots

              I'm not a fox news reader..but it's a mainstream link for you.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 8.2.1.3

          greywarshark

          'Bullying' is one word I would choose to describe the cumulative effect of the (later) responses to One Two's OM comments yesterday. It's entirely possible that my threshold for the detection of bullying is set too low, and it's also possible that I'm misidentifying bullying behaviour. Nevertheless, kindly consider rereading yesterday's prolific exchanges focussing on word choices only (redact names and ignore vaccine-specific content).

          I loathe bullying behaviour (particularly when I’m the perpetrator), and reflexively (and often against my better judgement) want to support an underdog. Yesterday's exchanges had too much of the 'pack closing in for the kill' flavour for my taste.

          Wow…One Two flamed the fuck out.

          That was….beautiful…

          You may well have been correct to appeal to lprent for the month-long banning of One Two (in order to put out the 'fire'), but that would be the easy way out and rewarding bullying behaviour, IMHO.

          • greywarshark 8.2.1.3.1

            I suggest that wasn't bullying to One Two – that was defensive by TS commenters who value the blog provoked to pronounce against him. I think this was done because he has shown himself to be a two-faced, shallow BS artist pretending to discuss, but actually conducting a smart flamewar. And I am not going to say any more about this because if it has to be explained to people commenting here, I am obviously wrong about TS being a blog of continuing value.

            By Vangie Beal In online forums and other online discussion spaces, a flame war is a series of flame posts or messages in a thread that are considered derogatory in nature or are completely off-topic. Often these flames are posted for the sole purpose of offending or upsetting other users.

            https://www.webopedia.com/TERM/F/flame_war.html

            • Drowsy M. Kram 8.2.1.3.1.1

              Thanks grey. Agree that one commenter dominating OM is far from ideal, and think that there are other (better?) ways to address that than inciting the individual to reply.

              For example, would you be upset and/or tempted to respond if someone posted this description?

              Greywarshark has shown himself to be a two-faced, shallow BS artist pretending to discuss, but actually conducting a smart flamewar.

              Can help agreeing with the writings of Vangie Beal. Always worth thinking about whether comments will offend/upset before posting.

              Often these flames are posted for the sole purpose of offending or upsetting other users.

              • greywarshark

                Yes I would be likely to respond if someone applied my description of the offender to myself. Because I would say that evidence shows it isn't true, though occasionally I might err. Whereupon if someone points that out to me, I will consider it and probably agree and amend my ways. That One Two will not do. One should not be stopped from ever criticising another because they would not like the argument to be reversed, and a reasonable criticism is worthy of a reasonable answer.

                Your comment about the description of flamewars. How can one draw attention to one if the result is to be accused of starting a flamewar?

                'Always worth thinking about whether comments will offend/upset before posting.'

                Your attempt at putting this matter into a framework of it being a spat to be mediated away, with good manners or courtesy, is specious. This matter is serious if there is going to be intelligent and informative discussion over a range of subjects, not just a few. So comments might offend/upset before posting. This isn't a gardening column, not even on Sunday. It is about our life and how it is under attack, that is very upsetting. We are concerned, we note and some of us want change, and talk of how, what is the best way. This discussion won't come if people just slide away from any situation, abandoning any ideas they have to express because someone overwhelmingly displaces them with trolling or flamewar behaviour. It is necessary to insist on limits to behaviour, yes, but the important thing is that they enable continued wide and informed discussion.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  "Whereupon if someone points that out to me, I will consider it and probably agree and amend my ways. That One Two will not do."

                  OK, so you've established that you're better than Two One. Since you clearly believe that One Two will not amend their commenting style or beliefs (and, to be fair, the evidence supports you), would you care to analyse the motives of those commenters ‘piling in’ on One Two in yesterday's OM?

                  If their comments (particularly the more inflammatory ones) wouldn't/couldn't change the antagonist's behaviour/views, then why? Could it be that some of them at least were deriving a certain "pulling the wings off a fly" satisfaction, or can you discern a more noble purpose?

                  My take on what happened yesterday – standard 'Lord of the Flies'.

                  I am interested in what One Two says, even though I don’t enjoy it.

                  • greywarshark

                    You over analyse everything. Drowsy. As I said before – 'that was defensive by TS commenters who value the blog provoked to pronounce against him.'. I think we care about what we are doing more than you do. You apparently have no strong connection to it and won't understand that it isn't some vicarious academic activity to us. So carry on enjoying with superior intellect.

                    Gordon McLauchlan wrote about us that we are 'The Passionless People' a brief summary of which said, 'in which he called New Zealanders the living-dead, smiling zombies. It was first published in 1976….Thirty-six years later, things are worse in the Revisited version.’

                    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=10797098
                    Another kick in the pants for New Zealand's 'smiling zombies' 2012

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      Thanks grey, that's helpful information – will try to shift the quantum of my analysis into your 'goldilocks zone' in future.

                      It's a given that you ("we") care more about The Standard than I do. Nevertheless, this site is important to me as a source of information (and, although I’m ashamed to admit it, entertainment), and my occasional commenting here is a mechanism to clarify my ideas on topics that I would otherwise give very little thought. This is the only blog of any kind that I follow (should get out more smiley).

                      I remain unconvinced the best Standard defense is a 'good' offense, but that seems to be human nature in this environment.

                      And apologies for giving the impression of having a superior intellect – that might have been less misleading 20 years ago, but is sadly wide of the mark these days.

                      Last observation – One Two displays much passion for their causes. If only they cared as deeply for The Standard.

  9. millsy 9

    Bob Hawke just died, if anyone wants to know. Tributes on the usual sites.

  10. Pat 10

    yet another warning alarm that will be ignored….at some not too distant point it will be unable to be ignored so we should enjoy the bliss while we can.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/may/16/thinning-of-antarctic-ice-sheets-spreading-inland-rapidly-study

    • Sabine 10.1

      i don't think they can do anything else but deny, ignore, and pretend its not that bad.

      panic would otherwise follow and panic ain't good for profit.

      i think it was Ben Elton who wrote in the Stark that when the Media, the polititians and the 'influencers' admitted that global warming/weather weirding/weather catastrophe is real its because they could not hide the effects of it anymore and while they pretended that it was just the beginning it was already to late to change anything about it. Thus the protagonist went somewhere bush to join some mates and drink beer in good company. I feel that. I feel that very much.

      a lot of what this guy here writes about goes over my head but the gist is the next week some real weird weather is gonna come the US.
      https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/5/15/1857911/-Atmospheric-Convulsion-Will-Cause-Historic-Disasters-of-Arctic-Melt-U-S-Storms-Next-Week?utm_campaign=trending
      In the meant time Siberia is super hot, South of France / Italy / Greece are quite cold for the season, and i am still harvesting Tomatoes and Zuchinis and i live no where near AKL or Northland.

      Fancy some beer?

        • Sabine 10.1.1.1

          Prost then. Nothing much i fear we can do anymore but ride it out and plant trees. Lots and lots of trees.

          • Pat 10.1.1.1.1

            yes lots of trees…and hopefully some time to go with them

            • Sabine 10.1.1.1.1.1

              gonna put in four this weekend, two for the birds two for humans.

              lets hope they get enough time to floursih and provide food for the critters and humans.

  11. Poission 11

    Enriched Uranium levels force school closure next to former weapons plant.

    https://twitter.com/jatara_/status/1128126030231810048

    • RedLogix 11.1

      I recall with wry amusement the automatic announcement on the short underground system in Ekaterinburg; at one point is says, in Russian, "This station children's playground, next station thermonuclear weapons plant".

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  • At a glance – Has Arctic sea ice returned to normal?
    On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
    1 week ago
  • Halo dunia!
    Selamt datang di WordPress. Ini adalah pos pertama Anda. Sunting atau hapus, kemudian mulai menulis! ...
    1 week ago
  • The PM wants a turnaround
    As a treat today I have lined up a favourite in the music slot. I love Turnaround, I cannot hear it too often, and I feel in need of a treat when I make myself listen to the Prime Minister the way I did this morning.He too, has favourites that ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    1 week ago
  • The PM wants a turnaround
    As a treat today I have lined up a favourite in the music slot. I love Turnaround, I cannot hear it too often, and I feel in need of a treat when I make myself listen to the Prime Minister the way I did this morning.He too, has favourites that ...
    More than a fieldingBy David Slack
    1 week ago
  • ELE LUDEMANN: Trusting locals
    Ele Ludemann writes- A government-knows-best and predilection for central control was another unfortunate feature of the 2017-2023 Labour governments. One of the worst polices as a result of that was what started as Three Waters and became several more. The National-led government is much more trusting of locals ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    1 week ago
  • Legislation to flush away Three Waters has become a certainty – but we must wait for details on th...
    Buzz from the Beehive A  three-day information drought was broken, just after Point of Order published yesterday’s Buzz from the Beehive, and two significant ministerial announcements were made. First, the Budget will be delivered on 30 May, telling us which genuine savings have been made by eliminating waste and which ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    1 week ago
  • Rise of the Lobbyists.
    An unpopular opinion, I love Auckland.Not so much the transport or the house prices - those are pretty dire. But there’s a lot to like. We’ve a vibrant, multicultural city in a beautiful location with, mostly, friendly locals. From the native bush of the Waitakeres to the Gulf islands, it’s ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    1 week ago
  • The holes in National’s water reform pipes
    Young renters just have to watch on as pipes keep failing and the Government and councils point fingers at each other, because all the incentives are for ratepayers to block rates increases, water meters, water charges and the creation of new entities. File Photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: The National-ACT-NZ First coalition ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 week ago

  • Greater support for social workers
    The Coalition Government is enhancing the professionalism of the social work sector and supporting the vulnerable people who rely on them, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says.  The Social Workers Registration Legislation Amendment Bill passed its third reading in Parliament today. It amends the Social Workers Registration Legislation ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 hours ago
  • Government delivers greater freedom and choice for sick New Zealanders
    The coalition government is delivering on its commitment to making principled decisions by getting rid of red tape that doesn’t make sense and allowing sick New Zealanders greater freedom and choice to purchase effective cold and flu medicines. A bill amending the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975 is being introduced, and changes to the Medicines ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    11 hours ago
  • Government begins reset of welfare system
    The Coalition Government is taking early action to curb the surge in welfare dependency that occurred under the previous government by setting out its expectations around employment and the use of benefit sanctions, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. In 2017, 60,588 sanctions were applied to beneficiaries who ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • State of the Nation
    Ka nui te mihi kia koutou. Kia ora, good morning, talofa, malo e lelei, bula vinaka, da jia hao, namaste, sat sri akal, assalamu alaikum. Thank you for coming to my first State of the Nation as Prime Minister. Thank you for coming to a speech where I don’t just ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • West Coast tourism attractions officially open
    Regional Development Minister Shane Jones will attend the official opening of two highly anticipated tourism projects on the West Coast today – Pike29 Memorial Track, dedicated to the memory of the Pike River miners, and Pounamu Pathway. “The Pike29 Memorial Track is a way to remember and honour the men ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Independent ferry service advisory group in place
    Appointments to the Ministerial Advisory Group tasked with providing independent advice and assurance on the future of KiwiRail’s inter-island ferry service have been made, State Owned Enterprises Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “It’s important for New Zealand that KiwiRail is focused on ensuring safe, resilient, and reliable ferry services over the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Joint statement from the Prime Ministers of Australia, Canada, and New Zealand
    The Prime Ministers of Australia, Canada and New Zealand today issued the following statement on reports of Israel’s planned military operation in Rafah. We are gravely concerned by indications that Israel is planning a ground offensive into Rafah.   A military operation into Rafah would be catastrophic. About 1.5 million Palestinians ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Govt will deliver on expanded breast screening
    The coalition Government has made the first steps in delivering on its promise to  extend free breast screening to women aged 70-74, Health Minister Shane Reti says. “As part of the 100 day plan, the Government has now met with officials and discussed what is needed in order for the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Government announces woolshed roadshows in support of sheep farmers
    The Government celebrates National Lamb Day (15 February 24) and congratulates sheep farmers on the high-quality products they continue to produce. Agriculture Minister McClay hosted bipartisan celebrations of National Lamb Day with industry representatives at Parliament this week to mark the anniversary of the first frozen lamb exports that left ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Speech: Address to the NZ Economics Forum
    It’s great to be back at the New Zealand Economics Forum. I would like to acknowledge everyone here today for your expertise and contribution, especially the Pro Vice-Chancellor, Head of the Waikato Management School, economists, students and experts alike. A year has passed since I was last before you, and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government tackling high construction costs
    The Government is focused on reducing sky-high construction costs to make it more affordable to build a home, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says.  Stats NZ data shows the cost of building a house has increased by 41 per cent since 2019, making housing even more unaffordable for Kiwi ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Labour’s Three Waters legislation repealed
    The Coalition Government’s legislative plan to address longstanding issues with local water infrastructure and service delivery took an important step today, with the repeal of Labour’s divisive and unpopular Three Waters legislation, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown says. “Repealing this legislation is a necessary first step in implementing our Local ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Cost of living support for beneficiary households
    The Coalition Government is delivering on its commitment to ease the cost-of-living by increasing main benefit rates in line with inflation and ensuring the Minimum Family Tax Credit threshold remains aligned with this change, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. The Social Security (Benefits Adjustment) and Income Tax ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government announces agriculture delegations to better support Primary sector
    The coalition Government has announced ministerial delegations to support key areas across the Primary sector to deliver for New Zealand’s food and fibre sector, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced today. “I will be supported in my roles as Minister of Agriculture, Trade, Forestry and Hunting and Fishing, by three Associate ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Waikato MoU reinforces Govt’s commitment to increase NZ doctors
    The Government has taken an important step forward in addressing a critical shortage of New Zealand-trained doctors, with today’s signing of a Memorandum of Understanding for a third medical school, Minister of Health Dr Shane Reti has announced.  “Today’s signing by the Ministry of Health and the University of Waikato ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Speech – Lunar New Year 2024
    Annyeonghaseyo, greetings and welcome all. It is my pleasure as the Minister for Ethnic Communities to welcome you to the first Lunar New Year Event in Parliament. Thank you to our emcees for greeting us in the different languages that represent the many cultures that celebrate the Lunar New Year. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • More funding to Hawke’s Bay and Tairāwhiti
    Urgent work to clean-up cyclone-affected regions will continue, thanks to a $63 million boost from the Government for sediment and debris removal in Hawke’s Bay and Tairāwhiti.                                                                                                   The funding will help local councils continue urgent work removing and disposing of sediment and debris left from Cyclone Gabrielle.   “This additional ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Budget will be delivered on 30 May
    Plans to deliver tax relief to hard-working New Zealanders, rebuild business confidence and restore the Crown’s finances to order will be unveiled on 30 May, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The plans will be announced in the Budget which is currently being developed by Ministers.  “The last government’s mismanagement of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Government advances Local Water Done Well
    The Coalition Government is continuing work to restore council ownership and control of water assets by repealing Three Waters and appointing a Technical Advisory Group to provide expert advice on the implementation of Local Water Done Well, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown says. “The Government will pass a bill to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • New diplomatic appointments
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has today announced five new diplomatic appointments.  "Strong and effective diplomacy to protect and advance our interests in the world is needed now more than ever," Mr Peters says.  “We are delighted to appoint senior diplomats from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade to these ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Speech to the Committee for Auckland
    It is great to be here today at this event as Minister for Auckland and Minister ofTransport. Let me start by acknowledging each one of you and thanking the Committee forAuckland for hosting this event and inviting me to speak here today. The Committee for Auckland has been a symbol ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Getting Transport Back on Track in Auckland
    Transport Minister Simeon Brown has today confirmed his high-level transport priorities for Auckland, in the lead up to releasing the draft Government Policy Statement on Land Transport. “Our economic growth and productivity are underpinned by a transport network that enables people and freight to move around safely and efficiently. At ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Government to axe Auckland Regional Fuel Tax
    Transport Minister Simeon Brown has confirmed that the Auckland Regional Fuel Tax will end on 30 June 2024. “Today, I can confirm that the Government has agreed to remove the Auckland Regional Fuel Tax in line with our coalition commitments, and legislation will be introduced to parliament to repeal the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Minister Calls for Work to Tackle Kina Barrens
    Changes to fishing rules and a significant science programme are being undertaken to address kina barrens, says Minister for Oceans and Fisheries Shane Jones. “There has been tremendous interest from iwi, communities and recreational fishers who had raised concerns about such kina infestations being a major threat to Northland’s marine ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Government law and order crackdown begins
    The coalition Government is making good on its promise to restore law and order by removing government funding for Section 27 reports and abolishing the previous Labour Government’s prison reduction target, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith and Corrections Minister Mark Mitchell say.  “In recent years, the development of Section 27 reports ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Greater focus on getting people into work
    The coalition government will refocus employment efforts and the welfare system so that supporting people who can work into jobs is the number one priority, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “Of concern in the labour market statistics released by Stats NZ today was the number of youth not ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • One year on, NZ appeals for release of Phillip Mehrtens
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has appealed to those holding New Zealand pilot Phillip Mehrtens in remote Papua, Indonesia, to release him immediately.  Phillip Mehrtens was taken hostage a year ago on 7 February in Paro, Papua, while providing vital air links and supplies to remote communities. “We strongly urge those holding ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Ministers reaffirm Pacific connections this week
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters and Health Minister and Minister for Pacific Peoples Dr Shane Reti are reaffirming the importance of New Zealand’s connections to the Pacific by visiting Tonga, Cook Islands and Samoa this week.  “New Zealand enjoys strong and long-standing relationships with our Pacific partners - especially in Polynesia, where we ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Rt Hon Christopher Luxon – Waitangi speech
    E ngā mana, e ngā reo, e ngā iwi, rau rangatira ma. Tēnā koutou katoa. He tino mihi ki te mana whenua o tēnei rohe.  Mihi mai, mihi mai, mihi mai. Te whare e tū nei, tēnā koe.                               He-wāhi whakahirahira tēnei mō Aotearoa. Ka huri nga whakaaro, ki nga mate. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Government awards primary sector scholarships to students
    Six university students studying agriculture and science have been awarded scholarships as part of the coalition Government’s efforts to boost on-the-ground support for farmers and growers. “The coalition Government is committed to improving support and operating conditions for farmers and growers,” Agriculture Minister Todd McClay says. “We’re backing a range ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • High Court Judge appointed
    Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced the appointment of Wellington Barrister Jason Scott McHerron as a High Court Judge. Justice McHerron graduated from the University of Otago with a BA in English literature in 1994 and an LLB in 1996. From 1996 to 1999 he worked as a solicitor in the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago
  • New Zealand provides further humanitarian support to Gaza and the West Bank
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced that New Zealand is providing a further $5 million to respond to the extreme humanitarian need in Gaza and the West Bank.  “The impact of the Israel-Hamas conflict on civilians is absolutely appalling,” Mr Peters says.  “That is why New Zealand has contributed $15 ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago
  • Government consults on expanding COVID-19 Inquiry terms of reference
    The Government is delivering on its commitment to enable public input into expanding the scope of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into COVID-19 Lessons, says Internal Affairs Minister Brooke van Velden. “As committed to in both the ACT-National and NZ First-National coalition agreements, the public will be given the opportunity ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago
  • Tai Tokerau Water Boost
    A further $5 million loan has been advanced to the Tai Tokerau Water Trust for Te Waihekeora Reservoir, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says.  “Water is a precious resource, Kānoa – Regional Development and Investment Unit at the Ministry of Business, Innovation, and Employment have done amazing work in the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago
  • Fast track consenting in the fast lane
    The Government is progressing changes to resource management laws as part of its 100 Day Action Plan, with the first steps taken to establish a new fast-track consenting one-stop shop regime. “This new regime, which forms part of National’s coalition agreement with New Zealand First, will improve the speed and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago
  • JOINT STATEMENT ON AUSTRALIA-NEW ZEALAND MINISTERIAL CONSULTATIONS (ANZMIN) 2024
    Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Defence the Hon Richard Marles MP and Minister for Foreign Affairs Senator the Hon Penny Wong hosted New Zealand Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs Rt Hon Winston Peters MP and Minister of Defence Hon Judith Collins KC MP on 1 February ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago
  • Minimum wage set for cautious increase
    The adult minimum wage rate will increase by 2 per cent to $23.15 an hour from 1 April 2024, Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden announced today. “This Government is committed to striking the right balance between protecting the incomes of our lowest paid workers and maintaining labour ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago
  • Increased security improves ED safety over summer
    Increasing the number of security staff in emergency departments (EDs) over the busy Christmas and New Year period improved the safety of both staff and patients, Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says. 200 additional security staff (93 FTEs) were provided to 32 EDs in response to concerns raised by ED ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago

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