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Open mike 10/05/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, May 10th, 2019 - 147 comments
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147 comments on “Open mike 10/05/2019 ”

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  1. Adrian Thornton 1
    10 May 2019 at 7:32 am

    America in denial: Gabor Maté on the psychology of Russiagate

    Ever wondered why some of your good friends and comrades seems to lose all rational thought and any capacity for critical thinking since Trump was elected?

    If so then watch this maybe not all your questions will be answered, but at least maybe some will be.

    • Stuart Munro. 1.1
      10 May 2019 at 10:36 am

      Starts out by mischaracterizing Mueller's report – Mueller was quite careful not to 'deliver a verdict', leaving a number of issues to be resolved by Congress. His findings certainly did not exculpate Russia – they merely failed to establish conclusively that the abundant Russian meddling was state backed.

      If your critical thinking is giving Putin a free pass, it probably isn't critical at all.

      • Adrian Thornton 1.1.1
        10 May 2019 at 11:00 am

        I don't think anyone is arguing that the Russians didn't do a little meddling, but it is also common knowledge now that that was very insignificant, we all know that this is what many major governments seem to do..it is also common knowledge that the USA is by far and away the worst offender…so whats your point?

        "giving Putin a free pass" seriously? man you Russia conspiratory people just keep on moving the goal posts don't you…it's over, finished, finito, no collusion, no Russian bogeymen, we are only left with a Democratic party unable to deal with the fact that it’s ideology has been rejected, and they lost the most winnable election in living memory.

        • Ad 1.1.1.1
          10 May 2019 at 2:18 pm

          A bunch more successful prosecutions from Russian electoral interference than Watergate.

          Trump isn't out of the woods legally yet either, but, as with Al Capone, it's the taxes that get you in the end.

          Democrats are doing just fine electorally, and on track to do even better. They are dong better in fact than most of the centre-left parties in the world except ours.

          The only ones in the US Democratic Party who are disappointed are the hard left, but disappointment is inherent to their very nature.

          • Adrian Thornton 1.1.1.1.1
            10 May 2019 at 5:29 pm

            @Ad, It says a lot about you that would consider just wanting fair wages, health care, and getting educated without a mountain of debt to be 'hard left'.

            The Democrats are doing fine, really, and what centrist Dem do you think they have who will beat Trump?..and please don't say Biden, cos then I really will know that you are living in fantasy land.

            • Ad 1.1.1.1.1.1
              10 May 2019 at 8:16 pm

              You can define 'hard left' on your own time.

              You can also tell us who you want win the Democratic nomination and why.

              • Adrian Thornton …
                10 May 2019 at 8:23 pm

                Firstly you obviously implied who the ‘hard left’ are in the Democratic party so don’t play all cute on it now, there are not really that many options.

                Secondly I asked first so how about you answer first then I will be glad to give you my opinion.

                • Ad …
                  10 May 2019 at 9:24 pm

                  You are the one proposing America's Democrats in denial from your first post. So go ahead and defend that position yourself.

                  You don't like Biden despite him being the clear favorite. I will form an opinion on who I prefer based on how they perform in the primaries. A lot of my opinion will ride on whether the Democratic candidate can actually beat Trump. There are not many of those.

                  • Adrian Thornton …
                    11 May 2019 at 9:38 am

                    @Ad, " A lot of my opinion will ride on whether the Democratic candidate can actually beat Trump. There are not many of those."

                    Well at least we can agree on something, which suits me fine because I would suggest that none of the centrist 'establishment' candidates the Dems are hoping will be their saviour will have a chance of beating Trump, which only leaves Progressives, and really only one of them can hope to pull off the win, and I think we all know who that is…

                    Of course that would mean that the Democratic party machine would need to fall in behind that candidate, and that is not a given at this point…it hardly needs to be said, that their are many establishment Dems who would rather lose to Trump than win with a real Progressive.

            • Morrissey 1.1.1.1.1.2
              10 May 2019 at 8:34 pm

              Fools like Ad would have dismissed Norm Kirk and Bill Rowling as "hard left."

              • Adrian Thornton …
                10 May 2019 at 9:16 pm

                Yeah I know, but it is slightly amusing to me to get these 'liberals' to actually say it out loud, usually they just don't respond though.

              • Ad …
                10 May 2019 at 9:19 pm

                Norm Kirk achieved very little and lasted two years.

                Bill Rowling simply lost.

                Both were darlings of the hard left.

                For the record I prefer Helen Clark to Jacinda Ardern, Bill Rowling, Norm Kirk, or Nordmeyer. Because Clark has a track record of delivery over the long term, which has lasted very well.

                • Adrian Thornton …
                  10 May 2019 at 10:01 pm

                  Yep her free trade deals really did wonders for small business and manufacturing in New Zealand…but hey, at least everyone ended up with flatscreen tv's and houses full of shit plastic toys for their kids, and crap clothes made by kids in slave conditions that none of us are meant to give a shit about, yes siree that is a real Labour leader right there.
                  Of course it dosn't surprise me at all that you would find her brutal free market ideology so very appealing.

      • mauī 1.1.2
        11 May 2019 at 12:30 pm

        You are mischaracterizing the report. The verdict was no collusion was found, even though it was written as if collusion was everywhere.

    • Bewildered 2.1
      10 May 2019 at 8:32 am

      i don’t believe she is polling even in the margin of error so a pointless follow Looks like Biden has got this by default as the rest of the pack try to out left loon each other

      • Adrian Thornton 2.1.1
        10 May 2019 at 8:56 am

        @Bewildered ‘Biden has got this by default as the rest of the pack try to out left loon each other'…oh you mean loony as in demanding fair pay, access to health care to all, curtailing US bloody interventions and bullying around the world, and by extension cutting the obscene amounts spent on useless weapons and warfare, stopping corporations and the super wealthy buying political favour….you mean those loons who would try and aim high instead of grovelling for the crumbs that you seem happy to eat (or for other people to eat) off the floor, you mean those loons?

        BTW, if you really think Biden has got it in the bag, then you are going to be seriously disappointed…never happen, he represents everything most US citizens are sick and disgusted by, that bump in the polls he has now got is the highest he will ever get, only downward for him now going forward, just like that other corporatist Dem, the hated H.Clinton who started high and then tanked all the way in.

        BTW Tulsi Gabbard has just been endorsed by Joe Rogan, probably one of the most popular figures on You Tube and
        Ron Paul, so it will be interesting to see what that does to her numbers.

    • Ad 2.2
      10 May 2019 at 9:27 pm

      The Democratic nomination really is a competition. So far even the mayor of a small Indiana town is relegating her to the dust.

      Gabbard has lost already, and is of zero consequence to US politics at all.

  3. Adrian Thornton 3
    10 May 2019 at 8:38 am

    Thanks francesca, that is a very good interview, quite timely too after yesterdays little back and forth with some other Standard commenters, that degenerated quite quickly into ad hominem slurs I thought, while (as usual and of course) never once actually addressing the original core topic.

  4. Observer Tokoroa 4
    10 May 2019 at 8:39 am

    Entrapment

    At the risk of upsetting the August Brainful Greywarshark Troll, I am suggesting to normal people that the Entrapment Technique in Parliament is itself a very risky thing.

    National to a man and a woman, have taken to the idea that any Minister of the Crown can be entrapped easily, and his "crime" can be forwarded to Granny Herald, and Lisa Owen, instantly. Gotcha!

    It uses a "LIE to Catch a non LIAR".

    So The Right Honourable, Professor, Doctor, Nick Smith brought into Parliament a Lady who sadly had lost a child in a Motor Accident. Dr Smith and the Lady were of the opinion that it was not the driver of the vehicle that killed her son, but the drugs the driver had taken.

    The Police had not known that the Driver who killed the Lady's son was on the road.

    Apparently, the people of Nelson expect every driver who steps into any vehicle to be immediately Breath and Drug tested. All the way there, and all the way back.

    Now, Dr Smith knows Nelson is very special. I am not privvy to what Smith knows. The Lady Dr Smith brought into Parliament was speaking out without being asked. During which time The Minister of Police was asked if he recalled saying that the Government would look into Drug Driving. The Minister said he could not recall saying that.

    Then Dr Smith implied that Minister of Police was not speaking the Truth. However, The same Minister tried to assist a national member of Parliament to manage Submitting a Bill about Drug Driving, and spent some time with him. If that is not Truth – what is ?

    But the national member told the Minister of Police to sod off.

    How come Dr Smith knew about what bits of paper The Police Minister had forgotten, and what he didn't have? Does Dr Smith have night time access to the Government's Chambers ?

    Dr Smith and the Lady wrang their Knuckles out. The Speaker thought it was very distasteful – which it was. The Dr kept raving that the Government had done nothing about Drug Driving.

    The stangeness of this whole incident that led to Dr Smith's punishment is: That the Stupid Member for Nelson has had 29 years in Parliament to stop Drug Driving in Aoteroa and has not lifted a finger ! He has made a fool of himself and of the bereaved Lady and of Nelson

    But neither Lisa Owen – or the sick Aurty Herald will know about that !

  5. cleangreen 5
    10 May 2019 at 9:06 am

    Today on our own publicly owned media – we had to be shamed again by the Australians about our "lack luster efforts to tackle climate change, when UK has already enshrined in their law that climate change is a crisis – said Peter Garrett (of midnight oil fame) on TV one while interviewed by John Campbell breakfast show..

    NZ is slipping beneath the sea.

    • Tuppence Shrewsbury 5.1
      10 May 2019 at 10:34 am

      peter garret? the frontman to the world touring midnight oil. I bet he didn't travel by train or sail boat.

      But he's a celebrity so I guess we should be ashamed by his condemnation

      • Wensleydale 5.1.2
        10 May 2019 at 11:09 am

        Right, so in your bizarre magical kingdom, anyone who has ever travelled via commercial airliner can never, ever say anything about climate change… ever.

        Good to know.

        • Tuppence Shrewsbury 5.1.2.1
          10 May 2019 at 11:19 am

          classic overreach in your argument.

          Celebrities like bono and peter garret made a bucket burning carbon now moralise. It’s pathetic

          • Wensleydale 5.1.2.1.1
            10 May 2019 at 1:30 pm

            Yeah, they did. But I'm fairly sure we can do something about climate change without reverting back to tall ships and wagon trains.

            • Tuppence Shrewsbury 5.1.2.1.1.1
              10 May 2019 at 3:08 pm

              I Agree. It’s just a bit rich when Bono, Clooney et al thinks it’s just for others to do as they say and not as they do.

      • cleangreen 5.1.3
        10 May 2019 at 3:21 pm

        Fair point there Tuppence Shrewsbury,

        They used to say “Lead by example” smiley

  6. Rosemary McDonald 6
    10 May 2019 at 9:13 am

    Grrr….frustrated at long last I am by the Herald paywall….https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12229332

    Ho hum. It is winter (despite record high temperatures, but who's cares?) so if I buy an actual paper paper….at least it'll do to light the fire.

    The headline shrieks…

    Radical, promising, and totally unaffordable: Government's $24m disability experiment !!! and goes on to say that…

    In a radical experiment, disabled people are choosing who cares for them and how they want to live. But as Government has found out, the ambitious programme is totally unaffordable.

    Non ACC disabled people being bulk funded for their assessed supports so they can choose their own carers (within boundaries) and timetable their own supports is nothing new, so I guess what they're on about is this..https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/news-items/transformed-disability-support-system-begin-midcentral

    …off to buy a paper.angry

    • Sacha 6.1
      10 May 2019 at 10:06 am

      Yes, be interested to see who is feeding journos that angle. The pilots are probably verifying how much of the cost has previously been borne by the family and others around each person, is all.

      WEAG mentions in passing the need to update the scant research about the extra costs of being disabled in NZ to go with the extensive work they drew on about the overall population.

    • Sacha 6.2
      10 May 2019 at 10:07 am

      If only we could pay by the story..

      • Rosemary McDonald 6.2.1
        10 May 2019 at 12:24 pm

        ….pay by the story..

        I was about to send them an email to ask just that…

        The article (having risked life and petrol bowser squeezing my Bus into a tiny gap at the petrol station to buy the damn herald) says little other than folks have actually moved to Mid Central to take advantage of the System Transformation/Enabling Good Lives scheme that is being trialed there after the two previous trials in Canterbury and Waikato.

        Our friends from the New Zealand Disability Support Network are not happy….the article describes NZDSN as 'advocates', but does not make it clear that they are advocates for those who receive funding from the government for providing disability support services. A pity, because that would have given an otherwise flimsy story some teeth. Every single dollar that the eligible disabled person has choice and control over how it is spent is potentially another dollar that fails to go through the NZDSN's members' bank accounts. Many of whom pay no tax on that income because they are registered charities…

        I'm pretty sure the 24million over two years (not even a flag referendum) is operating costs for the trial rather than increases in cost of providing supports.

        Later I'll dig out the EGL/EIF evaluation.

        • Sacha 6.2.1.1
          10 May 2019 at 12:46 pm

          Saw a copy. Article reflects lack of knowledge about disability support funding in general. And yes, conflating providers with advocates. Grrr.

          Main problem for the family they hang the story from is their local assessment agency capping support eligibility at only 20 hours per week for a youg man whose family say requires 24×7 support – not how provision is contracted after that.

    • Gabby 6.3
      10 May 2019 at 10:45 am

      24 mill? That's like a metre of road in auckland isn't it?

    • marty mars 7.1
      10 May 2019 at 1:29 pm

      Thoughtful read – I rate Scott very highly indeed and nearly always agree with him.

      • AB 7.1.1
        10 May 2019 at 4:07 pm

        Ditto. He writes beautifully and excels at demolishing conventional pieties.

    • Ad 7.2
      10 May 2019 at 9:50 pm

      He concludes that pre-colonial Melanesian and Papuan society sustained a political utopia that has somehow been erased by the Auckland Museum. That's impressive museological work from 7 curators.

      He could at least cite some evidence, any evidence at all. He's just looking for a source of righteousness ………. it just isn't there.

  8. A 8
    10 May 2019 at 9:55 am

    Congratulations JA on becoming Australia's most trusted politician.

    😀

    • Anne 8.1
      10 May 2019 at 10:11 am

      Last time she was in England, someone wrote to the BBC asking them to ask her … would she stay and be their PM.

      The note was read out by the BBC interviewer.

    • higherstandard 8.2
      10 May 2019 at 10:25 am

      Fairly low bar…

  9. greywarshark 9
    10 May 2019 at 10:28 am

    Interesting on Rachel Stewart.

    https://nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.com/2019/05/the-perscution-of-rachel-stewart.html

    and TDB

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/05/07/twitter-watch-the-lynching-of-rachel-stewart/ The last para:

    If your politics are not focused on climate change adaptation first and foremost, then you are part of the problem.

    It seems to me that just focussing on climate change eliminates people and their vulnerabilities and needs completely from empathetic consideration for the human race. If Bradbury is finding fault with identity politics' narrow concerns, the answer is to widen concern to everyone who is struggling to keep their heads up in the rush of change monetising everything and replacing humanity with technology. Keep thinking about people with kindness linked to what is practical, to what is needed by each group in society, and attention will shift to the young, and their future which will require a turn of alarge degree in people's moral compass.

    • Psycho Milt 9.1
      10 May 2019 at 1:55 pm

      I can manage to think with kindness about people who are taking a fundamentally irrational stance on the meaning of the words 'woman' and 'man,' but can not find any kindness in me for the ones trying to get people sacked for failing to share the delusion. Those guys can go fuck themselves.

      • greywarshark 9.1.1
        10 May 2019 at 2:02 pm

        That sounds fair and a more practical suggestion than that of the people you state.

  10. Tuppence Shrewsbury 10
    10 May 2019 at 10:42 am

    what's the word…

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48205523

    schadenfreude?

    • Psycho Milt 10.1
      10 May 2019 at 1:34 pm

      Two possible conclusions:

      1. God doesn't exist, therefore religion-based anti-vaxx beliefs are superfluous.

      2. God does exist, but just passed a fairly damning verdict on his follower's anti-vaxx beliefs.

      • Tuppence Shrewsbury 10.1.1
        10 May 2019 at 2:00 pm

        There is a remote third possibility, my personal favourite

        That all the other kids who were vaccinated gave the non-vaccinated kid the chicken pox. Which is a catch 22 for all anti-vaxxers

    • Rosemary McDonald 10.2
      10 May 2019 at 3:07 pm

      Or, the kid got chickenpox.

      Grizzly, grumpy, itchy, spotty kids. Nothing that lashings of TLC, calamine lotion, soda bic baths and mummy milos won't fix.

      My youngest is in her mid twenties and somehow she and her bros survived the pox…just as well as there was no vaccine then. If I recall correctly they shared the mumps as well. Good times.devil

      And if you read the article rather than just the headlines you'd know that the fellow and his family knew there was a chance of him getting the pox and are ok with it.

      • McFlock 10.2.1
        10 May 2019 at 3:34 pm

        They're also ok with infecting other people.

        Wikipedia says chicken pox killed 6,400 people in 2015. So not everyone survives with "mummy milos". 🙄

        I also had a colleague a couple of years ago who had shingles attacks. Not something to wave off like you did, apparently.

        • Rosemary McDonald 10.2.1.1
          10 May 2019 at 4:30 pm

          They're also ok with infecting other people.

          But, but the other people have all been Good and have had the vaccine and are safe from Plague Boy's pox.wink

          Serious questions McFlock.

          1.Do you see it as a failing of Medical Science that not all infectious diseases can be vaccinated against yet?

          2. What do you think god/nature/evolution intended when she/she/it designed the human immune system?

          • Andre 10.2.1.1.1
            10 May 2019 at 4:41 pm

            You really are a malicious pro-diseaser, aren't you. I'm actually disgusted.

            Plague Boy could be infecting other people that for whatever sound medical reasons cannot be safely vaccinated. Those unfortunates are reliant on vaccination rates in the general population being high enough to get herd immunity for their protection. Plague Boy is deliberately choosing to put those people at totally unnecessary risk. If any of those who cannot be vaccinated gets infected by Plague Boy, I hope they sue Plague Boy's ass off.

            • One Two 10.2.1.1.1.1
              10 May 2019 at 5:12 pm

              Stop the name calling Andre, and the faux disgust…your comment is full of holes as a result of your inadequate levels of understanding on the subject…

              1. The varacella vaccine does not prevent transmission of CP at either one or two doses

              2. herd immunity is an unproven maths formula as it relates to manufactured vaccine immunity..

              3. Your entire comment fails due to points 1,2

              As for the ‘medical reasons’… name them and provide details of the demographics at the school…and ill expose that myth as well…

              Stop the name calling.

              • Andre …
                10 May 2019 at 5:51 pm

                There's a whole big list of medical reasons why a few unfortunate people shouldn't get the chickenpox vaccine. Plague Boy could be spreading his disease to anyone he comes into contact with in the general population, not just at his school. Including mums with their infants too young to be vaccinated.

                https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/hcp-contraindications.htm

                Chickenpox is transmitted by persons suffering an active infection. The vaccine is from 85% (single dose) to 98% (double dose) effective in preventing active infection. If the vaccine prevents someone from getting an active infection, it's prevented them from spreading the disease.

                https://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/about/transmission.html

                https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/hcp-effective-duration.htm

                That herd immunity is an actual thing is demonstrated by the way measles outbreaks are extremely rare in populations that are highly vaccinated against measles (double dose 97% effective), but mumps outbreaks still happen even in highly vaccinated populations (88% effective double dose).

                • One Two …
                  10 May 2019 at 6:52 pm

                  Leaving aside your failure to provide demographics at the school illustrating numbers of children with the big list of medical reasons…

                  Germs are everywhere eh…everywhere…microbes, bacterium, viruses…

                  But sure…forget all about those…and forget about the so called efficacy rates you linked to…

                  None of the FDA approved CDC scheduled vaccines were tested against an inert placebo control group using the actual gold standard…

                  One was…but the results were merged with the toxic control groups thus covering up the fraud by committing research fraud…

                  In case you can't follow that bouncing ball from the starting point of the fraud…

                  1. Safety and efficacy figures are fabricated on fraudulent test methodologies and practice.
                  2. Vaccine induced herd immunity theory is therefore unproveable.

                  Double doses triple doses etc…all an open admission of vaccine failures…

                  Fraudulent methodologies and protocols devised by corrupted industry and endorsed by captured regulatory agencies…

                  When all else has failed. Mandate through force.

                  Vaccine Industry . Vaccine Science.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    10 May 2019 at 7:56 pm

                    Some don't support vaccination, and for the life of me I don't understand why. It's an ever-improving medical therapy much older than any of us. Vaccinations against diseases that are rarely fatal may be an apparent waste of time and money, but that opinion won’t deter me from getting my annual flu jab next Monday.

                    The smallpox vaccination program was a success.

                    https://ourworldindata.org/smallpox

                    I do admire efforts to develop and deploy vaccines against other diseases. Maybe you can have too much of a good thing, but we’re not there yet.

                    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_measles

                    "In 2011, the WHO estimated that there were about 158,000 deaths caused by measles. This is down from 630,000 deaths in 1990. In developed countries, death occurs in 1 to 2 cases out of every 1,000 (0.1% – 0.2%). Death from measles was reported in approximately 0.2% of the cases in the United States from 1985 through 1992. In populations with high levels of malnutrition and a lack of adequate healthcare, mortality can be as high as 10%. Increased immunization has led to an estimated 78% drop in measles deaths among UN member states."

                    • One Two …
                      10 May 2019 at 8:55 pm

                      Some don't support vaccination, and for the life of me I don't understand why.

                      Millions, and rapidly growing numbers, including medical professionals don't support all vaccines…and with a burgeoning medical science archive of evidence why they should not…

                      Higher numbers than that again do not support forced vaccinations…

                      If you don't understand why, then you are not at all well read or informed on the subject…wiki-p link tells me that you are not..

                      But your comments in general are some of the better reading on this site…in my opinion…

                      It's an ever-improving medical therapy much older than any of us

                      • No, it is not older than the evolution of our species … so you're not thinking logically with that statement, are you…
                      • No, it is not an ever improving medical therapy. In fact the vaccine industry including the regulators have been actively preventing the improvement of vaccines…in a myriad of ways…

                      Not least by removing all liability from the manufacturers in 1986.

                      Closely followed by the DHHS breaking federal law by failing to ensure that biannual vaccine safety and improvement reports were filed. Sixteen times that federal law was broken by the regulators themselves…

                      I've posted ample (searchable) material over recent months highlighting some of the core issues with vaccine science and the vaccine industry as a whole…

                      Believing ‘we’ can out-smart nature is pure folly..and it is showing in the increasing illness and disease rates globally…

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      10 May 2019 at 9:44 pm

                      It's an ever-improving medical therapy much older than any of us

                      • No, it is not older than the evolution of our species … so you're not thinking logically with that statement, are you…
                      • No, it is not an ever improving medical therapy. In fact the vaccine industry including the regulators have been actively preventing the improvement of vaccines…in a myriad of ways…

                      My statement was factual (did you read it carefully?) – vaccination therapies have been used for hundreds of years. Medical therapies have extended human life spans, but no-one is that old.

                      Researchers are currently working towards developing new or more effective vaccines against the zika virus, against specific cancers, against Mycobacterium tuberculosis, and any number of other ‘diseases’. Surely an effective vaccine against M. tuberculosis would be useful addition to the ensemble of medical therapies.

                      I acknowledge that immune systems are (hyper)variable (that's an in joke), and not fully understood. But our partial understanding has enabled highly effective public health initiatives – I for one would not want to see those gains lost.

                      For example, vaccination programmes led to the global eradication of smallpox in 1977, so no-one is vaccinated against smallpox these days (Wyeth stopped making the vaccine in the early 1980s). I imagine that smallpox would thrive in our present-day high-density cities – what benefits do you imagine might accrue from reintroducing this disease?

            • Rosemary McDonald 10.2.1.1.1.2
              10 May 2019 at 5:50 pm

              Settle Andre…you're going to blow your foo foo valve!

              Goodness gracious me…chickenpox is not the plague. It has a death rate of one in 60000 cases. With good care, one in sixty thousand children who get chickenpox will recover completely.

              Not being vaccinated against a disease that until very recently had no vaccine is not a crime.

              How is there anything malicious in what I wrote?

              Nah, don't answer that, you'll just use it as an excuse to level more vitriol.

              • Andre …
                10 May 2019 at 6:11 pm

                A death rate of one in 60000 from something that's completely preventable is absolutely unacceptable. But you seem to think it's something to joke about, even embrace. That is malicious.

                Now, I happen to think that adults should have sufficient right to bodily autonomy that they should be able to refuse vaccination if they so wish. And I'll take a Darwinian view of any subsequent suffering or death they suffer. But they should also be held fully accountable for the consequences of their decision. Just like people are held accountable for other idiot negligence they indulge in that causes harm to others.

                But when it comes to kids, I don't view kids as their parents' property to do with as they please. Parents have an obligation to make decisions for the best interests of the child, not to impose whatever personal idiocies they may have on the child. A child that becomes ill with a vaccine-preventable disease and wasn't vaccinated but could have been has just suffered horrific child abuse, and the parents should be held accountable for that.

                • One Two …
                  10 May 2019 at 7:03 pm

                  Stop spewing logical fallacies, Andre…

                  I've previously addressed every falsehood you write on this subject…

                  You're still repeating mysogenistic and bigoted falsehoods..

                  And you need to stop.

          • McFlock 10.2.1.1.2
            10 May 2019 at 4:49 pm

            Except people with contraindications don't have the option of getting vaccinated, even if all vaccines were 100% permanently effective.

            Anyway, answers:

            1: No, that's a goal to work towards.

            2: The immune system probably wasn't designed and is merely the evolved product of our ancestors' survival and reproduction over aeons. But if it was designed, then the same designer made ebola and is a complete bastard, so I care not for their intentions.

            • Rosemary McDonald 10.2.1.1.2.1
              10 May 2019 at 5:54 pm

              Final question McFlock….what then will our immune system do when it does not have to initiate an immune response naturally because vaccination has taken over that role?

              • McFlock …
                10 May 2019 at 6:14 pm

                If it doesn't have to "initiate an immune response naturally" (I assume that means reacting to viruses etc it encounters in the course of our daily lives), then it's not encountering those germy-jims, is it.

                If "naturally" means that its first encounter with the bug is from an interaction in our normal daily life, and it hits a live, fully armed and operational battlestation germ, then we get sick, and hope that between our immune system and medicine it doesn't really fuck us up.

                But if we get vaccinated for everything, then at highest efficacy we don't notice a "natural" immune response, because our immune systems have an effective counter to that particular germ. We'd never get a cold, or the flu, or ebola. Heck, no infectious diseases ever, if we vaccinated against all viruses and bacteria. No gangrene, no tetanus, no staph.

                Causes of death would almost entirely be injury and debilitation.

              • One Two …
                10 May 2019 at 6:26 pm

                Rosemary, another question is…

                How many artificial activations can an individual immune system tolerate…before it breaks…

                Clues and evidence are in the rapidly expanding statistics of illness, allergies and auto immune diseases in young human beings…

                Modern medicine doesn’t have the answers…and the vaccine industry doesn’t want the answers to be found…

                • McFlock …
                  10 May 2019 at 6:32 pm

                  Be explicit: are you claiming that vaccines cause people to have allergies and related conditions (e.g. asthma)?

                  • One Two …
                    10 May 2019 at 9:34 pm

                    Explicit.

                    I'm explicitly stating there are rapidly increasing numbers of young human beings in the developed nations, who are becoming ill, diseased and mentally damaged by a number of environmental factors, which undeniably includes vaccines…

                    Manufacturers, trial data, vaccine program deployment data and legal decisions explicitly state that vaccine cause illness, disease and death…

                    The VAERS data sets explicitly show the same.

                    • McFlock …
                      10 May 2019 at 9:56 pm

                      lol

                      So you're shying away from claiming that the rising yadda yadda is due vaccines to any substantive level.

                      You're just saying "this increases", "this occasionally causes that" (an arguable position, depending on how broad "this" is), and following it up with… nothing explicit.

                    • One Two []
                      10 May 2019 at 10:16 pm

                      You've already conceded once to me today, McFlock…you're a very long way behind, overall..

                      When you've read and understood the subjects and materiala I've pointed you to…and to a sufficient level…perhaps we could have this conversation again…

                      If the manufacturers, trial data, vaccine program data, legal rulings data and vaers data are not explicit enough for you…

                      Then you're being intentially disingenuous…which of course you are…

                      A difference between yourself and some of the bigots and misogynists who comment on this subject…in my opinion…

                      Is that you're likely to be clued up enough to get a grasp of some of the gaping flaws in vaccine industry science…

                      Or perhaps not.

                      Have a good weekend.

                    • McFlock …
                      10 May 2019 at 10:21 pm

                      If vaccines were responsible to any decent fraction of the rise in allergies etc, basically not just the drug companies and FDA but every single regulatory agency, collective health purchaser (insurance company, MoH, general practise corporation) and medical surveillance body (down to all individual researchers) would have to be in on the cover-up, around the entire globe. Frequently to their own detriment.

                      Is that your claim?

                    • One Two []
                      10 May 2019 at 11:13 pm

                      Do you not understand how top down centralised structures function , McFlock ?

                      Especially an entire industry with zero…zero liability…that's zero, McFlock…

                      Zero liability with decades of malpractice, fraudulant, corrupted activities…tens of billions in settlements…and regulatory agencies that are racked with conflicts and were captured decades ago…

                      The CDC is the vaccine industry …so is the FDA….congress is brought by the vaccine industry lobbyists…and DOJ defends vaccine manufacturers against the same people their products damage, injure and kill…

                      Individual researchers…yeah sure…those whose very career is paid for by vaccine manufacturers…who perform research inside of strictly controlled, narrow confines paid for by the manufactures…

                      Whose research is reviewed by captured peers and published in pharma medical journals… which were outed years ago by their former editors saying the data is mostly&nbsp;<em>untrustworthy …</em>

                      Where researchers who break ranks are crucified by the pharma advertising dependent and compliant media..

                      Where independent researchers are denied access to trial data…

                      So yes…there are undeniably cover-ups going on… including at the present time…numerous court cases around the world .. even their own employees are taking manufacturers to court…for fraudulant trial methodologies and outright statistical fraud…among others…

                      It is all there..unless you don't want to see it…

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      10 May 2019 at 10:39 pm

                      I'm explicitly stating there are rapidly increasing numbers of young human beings in the developed nations, who are becoming ill, diseased and mentally damaged by a number of environmental factors, which undeniably includes vaccines…

                      "Environmental factors" undeniably includes everything that exists in your environment. It "includes" vaccines to the extent that it "includes" approximately infinity other things.

                    • McFlock …
                      10 May 2019 at 11:50 pm

                      Thank goodness we have experts like you operating on a higher level than the rest of humanity. Save us from this global conspiracy of millions of people! /sarc

                    • One Two []
                      11 May 2019 at 12:03 am

                      Sarcasm is low grade wit..it's late though.. so I get it…

                      And I've explained some of my perspective as to how top down industry can easily corner entire markets including research data…which is precisely what is happening…

                      Like I said…I reckon you actually grasp just enough that even the self confessed dickhead that you are…can see it..

                      Bit shocking…yeah I get that too…but denying it doesn't stop it… or alter the documented truth of whats going on…a simple concept…

                      Millions upon millions around the world…some not even at your level…getting it…and growing by the day..

                      Unstoppable.

                    • McFlock …
                      11 May 2019 at 12:18 am

                      dude, it's not shocking, it's farcical.

                      You can say "top down" all you want, but the fact is that if vaccines were responsible for what you claim, there is no way to keep it under wraps. As each vaccine is introduced in each country and region, you'd have to disguise (somehow) the resulting step-change in immune conditions as it occurs. You'd have to control every researcher directly, not just ones involved with vaccine development but case studies and cohort studies run by physicians who want to identify causes of the uptick in the cases they get. "Top down" control requires instructions and memos – there would be literally millions of copies of these floating around, but all gept secret because… conspiracy.

                      There have been some vaccines and other treatments that had inflated efficacy or disguised adverse reactions. But a global conspiracy to coverup a major problem with the concept of vaccination itself? That's a fucking big call to make on the basis of "higher level" thinking and a few individual cases almost exclusively from the yanks.

                    • One Two []
                      11 May 2019 at 12:50 am

                      You're ignoring the size and dominance of the pharma/vaccine industry…

                      And you're ignoring the zero liability…

                      It's far simpler than you believe..and of course there is conspiracy…but you reckon you're smarter than falling for missing it…eh..

                      Except it's happening in front of your closed eyes…

                      instructions and memos…

                      Simpler than that…just a good corporate take over of regulatory agencies and a repeat of tabacco science once 100% liability was removed…

                      Leading to removal of incentive to improve safety or quality…

                      Leading to increased incentive to perform poorer quality research and trials…while producing more and more vaccines…

                      Then get your colleagues at the FDA to approve the new low grade products.. and your colleagues at the CDC to schedule them and buy billions of dollars worth annually..and the DOJ to fight the damages on your behalf…

                      All taxpayer funded of course…

                      So to your point..it's not global…it is the opposite..it's all local…don't be fooled…and then exported around the world…rinse and repeat…

                      Because…central authority…which you're a long time advocate of…

                      Despite admitting there has been serious problems…still ongoing and worsening…

                      Delusional… is what that is…

                    • McFlock …
                      11 May 2019 at 1:29 am

                      So all the cohort studies in NZ are covering up massively reduced levels of immune disorders in their unvaxed people because of big pharma?

                      Everyone working for those studies are defending big pharma by falsifying results?

                      The adverse events reporting systems that show adverse events for medications do not show the same level of events for vaccines because big pharma would rather vaccinate than sell opioids or NSAIDs?

                      Think about it. I’m off to bed.

                    • One Two []
                      11 May 2019 at 9:08 am

                      You would need to provide examples of studies to which you refer…

                      That said, the studies (assuming you mean vaccine related) are 100% of the time initiated with faulty entry point criteria…

                      Which results in 100% faulty and fraudulent exit point criteria and statistics…

                      Why…because every FDA approved and licenced vaccine was approved using highly unscientific methodologies…

                      Of the current CDC schedule , therefore those vaccines on the NZ schedule…every single type/brand post licensure trial data is flawed…because the of the pre-licensure trials fraud…

                      No need to falsify…the data was already false to begin with…

                      I've explained it with examples previously…more than once…

                      VAERS data is underreported by a factor of 10 – 100 possibly more so…regardless of the type…pharma drugs or vaccines…the data is deeply misleading…

                      I've evidenced that also…

                      As for pharma…any globally dominant industry…will seek to cover all bases to ensure the greatest levels of profit and stakeholder returns…

                      Whatever it has to sell within the product catalogue…will be sold…no matter what…

                      Fully endorsed by the regulators and health authorities…

                    • McFlock …
                      11 May 2019 at 4:26 pm

                      I mean not just vaccine trials and studies, but longitutinal cohort trials such as the Dunedin Study. These pick a starting cohort, gather information about them, and follow participants for decades. Between them, hundreds of thousands of kids have been followed from birth, vaccination status logged along with every other social and medical criteria imaginable. Hundreds of publications from each study, cross-comparing different factors and utcomes in participants' lives. Every single one of those studies would need to have been compromised by "big pharma", too, just to avoid the alleged contribution of vaccination to allergies. And yet many of those studies get zero funding from pharma and are careers in themselves for the researchers, so how does big pharma compromise them?

                      Even if all vaccine adverse event reporting systems around the world underreported adverse events by 90% (and how does US big pharma compromise Russia's or China's medical reporting systems?), that would still leave a difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated kids in the general population. So every single allergy researcher who observes that difference needs to be compromised by big pharma to shut them up.

                      I really don't think you understand just how large your alleged conspiracy would have to be, spanning multiple disciplines across the entire globe, regardless of self-interest or geopolitical enmity. All with barely any "leaks", if any. For 70 years or more. No deathbed confessions, whistleblowers dumping to wikileaks, memos sent to journalists by accident, civil servants failing to redact OIA requests, nothing.

                      All just for vaccines, but not for any of the other drugs big pharma is distributing. When they couldn't even disguise oxy's harm for a decade.

                    • One Two []
                      11 May 2019 at 7:03 pm

                      I’m only talking vaccines…

                      Link to the Dunedin Study ..I've no idea what it is youre referring to…so I can review it..

                      Either way makes no difference as all and any studies are subject to the same controls and limitations placed on them by authorities…

                      Just quickly to the rest of your comment because you and I have covered the same ground before.

                      I’m not talking about Russia or China…

                      Unvaccinated and partially vaccinated human beings are everywhere…

                      Expected, unexpected, specific, non specific, reactivation, protein sensitization…etc

                      Leaks are global, whistleblowers become walking targets, confessions including alive people, high up insiders. Zimmerman et al

                      FOIA everywhere Ive been linking to the details repeatedly here..but folks dont;like Kennedy / Bigtree et al…

                      Pharma drugs are subject to far more stringent regulation…and companies can be sued for damage…same companies cant be sued for biologicals damage…vaccines NVICP…

                      Harm is global and not hidden. Its coming out and can't be stopped…hence censorship and force are being used…

                      You’re showing a respectful interest…thats cool…

                      Ill be posting more…just not in this convo…

                    • McFlock …
                      11 May 2019 at 7:25 pm

                      But that's the point: you're not talking about other treatments, and you're not talking about Russia and China.

                      Why would vaccines be the only treatment big pharma decide to cover up any adverse events from on a global scale? Surely something addictive would be a better product for them to implement a decades long coverup over?

                      Why don't Russian and Chinese authorities say shit like "we would vaccinate, but it's too dangerous, you guys are crazy"?

                      I'm not talking about just the Dunedin study – Any long term cohort study could pick up the discrepancy, if it existed.

                      You'r arguing that researchers not directly tied to the pharmaceutical industry are covering up a demonstrable association between vaccination and immune disorders in NZ, USA, Britain, Africa, Asia…

                      I get the theory that a vaccine researcher might be cherry-picked or influenced to not make their career or employer obsolete, but so many unconnected researchers? Come on.

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      11 May 2019 at 8:43 pm

                      <i>Link to the Dunedin Study ..I've no idea what it is youre referring to…</i>

                      Seriously? You study this stuff and you're unfamiliar with the best-known longitudinal study in the country?

                    • higherstandard …
                      11 May 2019 at 9:39 pm

                      You chaps do know you're debating with Phil Ure ?

                      His only notable skill is in the use of ellipsis, with some secondary merit in outlandish conclusions drawn from a general misunderstanding of just about everything, certainly his only knowledge of things scientific and medical is dubious sites on the interwebs and I fear he learnt nothing from the good teachers at Rosmini all those years ago.

                • Andre …
                  10 May 2019 at 6:39 pm

                  Immune systems don't wear out and they don't break. Like other biological systems, continually use them and they get stronger.

                  For quite a few years, my social circle included a lot of wildlife researchers and aid workers. They were continually getting jabs for whatever was a risk wherever they were going next. They also suffered the least from flu and colds and whatever other lurgies were going around at the time. Didn't stop a few of them coming down with real nasties they couldn't get vaccinated against, tho. Malaria was kinda common.

                  The problems with allergies and asthma and auto-immune diseases that are becoming more common are more plausibly linked to our modern obsession with cleanliness. That our immune systems don't get enough external challenges to keep them busy, and they turn on us instead. Read up about the "hygiene hypothesis".

                  • One Two …
                    10 May 2019 at 7:22 pm

                    The human immune system did not evolve by injecting chemicals directly into the human body…

                    Short circuiting and bypassing the precicely evolved systems which you believe can be strengthened through a bypass of medical and chemical injections…

                    No. They can't. They become weekend and the system becomes damaged..

                    Which is why your home country has the highest number of vaccinations in any schedule… and the sickest cohort populations in the OECD…

                    You don't respect anecdotes..so stop repeatedly using them yourself…

                    The final part of your comment is a likely contributer…I do agree with that..

                    • higherstandard …
                      10 May 2019 at 8:01 pm

                      ‘No. They can’t. They become weekend and the system becomes damaged..’

                      More errant nonsense from philu.

                    • One Two []
                      10 May 2019 at 8:39 pm

                      more errant nonsense from philu

                      That would be your most useless contribution to recent discussions…

                      A really pathetic and defeated comment…

                      You seem to have trouble recalling the fact I've told you who I'm not…

                      And you need to stop doing that…and probably see a professional about your reading and recall issues…

                      Are you a drinker?

                      Weekends on this site get noticeably more abusive and incoherent from a number of regulars…drink will be playing a key role in that…

                    • Bazza64 …
                      10 May 2019 at 8:01 pm

                      One Two

                      I would rather have a polio vaccine & a "weakend immune system", than suffer polio itself. I knew a lady that years ago caught polio with a young friend in pre-vaccine times. The young boy died from the polio & she eventually recovered but had years of bouts of excrutiating pain. You seem to paint a picture of natural immunity as a wonder of nature to behold, but it is a lack of understanding of the history of diseases that your ignorance shows.

                    • higherstandard …
                      10 May 2019 at 8:55 pm

                      'That would be your most useless contribution to recent discussions…'

                      Not reading your own leavings then……..eh ?

                      Are you a drinker?

                      Yes indeed….just had a lovely cup of tea…..jolly lovely…..eh

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      10 May 2019 at 9:13 pm

                      "The human immune system did not evolve by injecting chemicals directly into the human body…" All natural biological molecules (simple or complex) are chemicals.

                      Replace "injecting" with 'introducing' and you're describing selection pressures which did indeed ‘guide’ the evolution of the human immune system.

                      For example, the innate immune system (non-specific, no 'memory') has evolved to detect certain chemical structures (PAMPs, pathogen-associated molecular patterns) and initiate responses to kill/destroy those pathogens.

                      The adaptive immune system mediates a stronger, specific immune response – individual pathogens are "remembered" courtesy of (chemical) antigens unique to the pathogen. Vaccines must contain antigens (chemicals) that are either derived from or mimic natural antigens (chemicals/molecules – often proteins) of the target pathogen – how else could a vaccine prime the immune system to recognise that pathogen?

                      Free hit if you like, One Two – I'll not reply as we would probably end up talking at cross-purposes.

                    • One Two []
                      10 May 2019 at 10:02 pm

                      free hit if you like

                      No thanks. Thats not what I'm about…

                      I'll not respond as we would probably end up talking at cross purposes.

                      Given the comment about replacing injecting with introducing, it seems you're already at cross purposes… and potentially seeking to play word games with what is a clear differential regarding human evolutionary timeframes and modern medicines vaccine era…

                      As for your comment about all natural biological molecules are chemicals…yes quite…except vaccines are an industrialized factory manufactured chemical process including distribution and storage logistics…

                      Little of nothing to compare against the [how ever many] millenia of human evolutionary development…or introduction…

                      Vaccines are primarily about injecting laboratory and factory modified, contaminated compounds (many of which are unidentifiable) into human beings therefore bypassing the entirety of human immune and biological evolution…skin..mouth…nose..et al…

                      Have a good weekend…

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      10 May 2019 at 10:47 pm

                      I believe I will have a good weekend – thank you.

                      "Vaccines are primarily about injecting laboratory and factory modified, contaminated compounds (many of which are unidentifiable) into human beings therefore bypassing the entirety of human immune and biological evolution…skin..mouth…nose..et al…"

                      No, the role of pathogen-derived vaccine antigens is to activate/prime the human immune system against that specific pathogen – vaccines absolutely do not bypass the immune system. They do, however, largely bypass/avoid the symptoms of the disease.

                      If vaccine antigens “bypassed” the immune system, then they would be completely ineffective, whereas we know that vaccines can be highly effective, to the point of eradicating a deadly disease such as smallpox.

                      To be frank, with the incidence of antibiotic resistance on the rise, our immune systems are going to need all the help they can get.

                    • One Two []
                      10 May 2019 at 11:04 pm

                      Why are you ignoring the vaccine primary delivery mechanism of intramuscular needle injection?

                      Injection bypasses the innate structure of the immune systems lines of defence…or do you not understand the construct of the immune system…seems that you don’t…

                      Vaccine theory suggests a priming effect…

                      However… measuring a temporary increase in anti-body production does not confer immunity…and it never will when compared to life long full cell immunity from contracting a version wild virus…

                      Wild versions of virus which are mutating and becoming problematic in cohorts not previously observed..

                      Similar to antibiotics…vaccine overuse is leading to more failure and waning…while causing other illness and disease…

                      In short…we've screwed with nature…and we will be screwed back multi fold…as can be seen around the developed world…

                      Sick and disease ridden kids everywhere you go…

                      Undeniable…and vaccines are a contributing factor.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      10 May 2019 at 11:19 pm

                      I’m no expert, but I have a fair grasp of the theory of how immune systems function at the molecular level; do you? I mean, you get how pathogen molecules interact with proteins and cells of the immune system, not just the macroscopic stuff, right?

                      You would rather innoculate yourself with a microscopic pathogen, than be vaccinated (protected) against that pathogen by injecting pathogen-derived antigens. Your choice – not mine. If you don't think vaccination is worth whatever risk you perceive, then don't get vaccinated. I'll continue to advocate for the vaccination of me and mine, regardless.

                      On balance, innoculation entails more risk than vaccination, so I'll stick with vaccination. Best of luck innoculating yourself with this year's influenza strains.

                    • One Two []
                      10 May 2019 at 11:41 pm

                      Now your lack of understanding is really showing up…masked by the inoculate vs vaccinate angle…that's ok..I'm with you…

                      Not only are you apparantly missing fundamentals of the constituent parts of the whole human immune system…but you're missing vaccine ingredient functions as well…

                      …pathogen derived antigens…

                      You understand thats not what causes the reaction …surely?

                      As for your final paragraph…as I've explained many times to others…risk is impossible to assess…the fraudulant pre licensure trials methodology ensure it…

                      And citing the flu vaccine…one of the most toxic…lowest efficacy rated vaccines of all…

                      I assume you were signalling your decision to have it?

                      We're on the same page with choice…I'm just armed with more and seemingly a better level of information when I make one…

                      Good luck with your choices…

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      11 May 2019 at 12:01 am

                      "I assume you were signalling your decision to have it?"

                      I more than signalled it in my comment at 7:56 pm, but that's OK.

                      For the record, I did my post-doc in the Biochemistry Department at Cambridge University. No immunology expert (and I've never worked in a commercial lab, or received research funding from any corporate), but I am familiar with pathogens, antigens, antibodies, immune cell types, etc. I'm most comfortable with the innate immune response, and defensins in particular.

                      I admire the passion and energy of your anti-vax advocacy. There's no way I can match it – but (like you), I know what I know. Unlike you, perhaps, I know that I could be wrong.

                      P.S. I have commented previously on this site about the use of aluminium-based adjuvants in vaccine formulations (with references), and am aware that vaccines contain components other than the primary antigens. Those components are there for good reasons, and yes, some of them do come with risks. Pharmaceutical companies are aware of these risk and, believe it or not, many scientists and technicians are working to minimise those risks.

                      Now give me my vaccination!

                    • One Two []
                      11 May 2019 at 12:27 am

                      And despite your claimed background you exhibit, repeated and multiple misunderstandings..

                      As you said earlier… you can call it cross purposes…it's ok..

                      Molecular level is a component of the whole…you've been ignoring the external layers and entry point defenses..

                      I'd say it must be deliberate given the exchanges you were not going to continue on with…eh…but kept coming back…

                      Use of the derogatory smear , anti-vax belies your claimed background and signals a total misread of my comments…

                      Use of the term puts you inline with the other misogynistic bigots on this site. And like them…you should not use that terminology…

                      It is insulting, abusive and contrived.

                      But you're ok Drowsy…no need to self promote..leaves you open to critique when you get it wrong…which you have done…

                      Can’t disappear it now though. It’s on the record.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      11 May 2019 at 12:36 am

                      Apologies for using "anti-vax"; sincerely did not think this would offend you.

                      My admiration for the passion and energy of your advocacy (will not attempt to put a label on your 'cause') is genuine – it's your choice to believe that, or not.

                      Was a bit miffed at the “claimed background” jibe, but no offense taken.

                      Shutting down the computer now!

                    • One Two []
                      11 May 2019 at 12:57 am

                      I'm not offended…but it is an offensive and belittling term which is deliberately divisive and misleading in many ways…

                      As I said…your comments are good reading here..I'll keep reading them if you keep posting..not just this subject..

                      Appreciate the engagement..

                      Enjoy the weekend…

          • One Two 10.2.1.1.3
            10 May 2019 at 5:26 pm

            The CP vaccine is causing an increase in shingles

            Chickenpox vaccination does increase shingles cases, but mainly in young adults

            The shingles vaccine is a huge growth business for GSK

            • McFlock 10.2.1.1.3.1
              10 May 2019 at 5:35 pm

              Fair call, although it is based on the same “unproven maths formula” you complain about regarding herd immunity, lol.

              But read the actual published article more closely. It might surprise you.

              • One Two …
                10 May 2019 at 5:50 pm

                complain.

                No. Thats you spinning having conceded to my comment…ungracefully…but you did concede…

                Good for you.

                Pointing put that vaccine induced herd immunity has no basis outside of mathematical theory is, factual.

                Facts are not complaints.

                Not only is the maths theory…just that… it was plageurized theory from nature..

                I've previously read every article I link to, which is why I don't need to scramble search…

                It is why I'm far ahead of you guys on the subject..and why I don't need wiki-p..

                Wiki-p is for those who don't understand the issues and need to scramble search…

                It is a low grade resource…

                • McFlock …
                  10 May 2019 at 6:04 pm

                  You didn't actually link to the published article, just a report on the article. Fact. Vaccination rate dips, measles comes back. Fact.

                  As for how far ahead you are… was Louis Plageur the first person to "plageurize" theories from nature? And do nature submit articles on its theory to Nature, or does it self-publish?

      • Tuppence Shrewsbury 10.2.2
        10 May 2019 at 4:17 pm

        But they weren't ok with the education people in Kentucky objecting to him potentially infecting other people with his "it's ok coz god provides" fuckwittery. so they sued. and lost. thank god.

        Which is where the anti-vax argument really falls down. Everyone apparently should respect anti-vax's wishes to not be immunised but woe betide society if it's wishes are to have nothing to do with you because your wishes lead to death and suffering.

        • Rosemary McDonald 10.2.2.1
          10 May 2019 at 5:42 pm

          Forgive me Tuppence Shrewsbury if I am of an age where a kid having chickenpox is quite normal.

          Yes, it is inconveniencing and more that a little uncomfortable but it is/was, until very recently, a normal childhood illness.

          A death rate of one in sixty thousand….according to Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickenpox ….is not really significant.

          For the record…I am not anti vaccinations, I am pro informed consent and pro education and I also believe that vaccines will not prevent all the ills of the world.

          Wouldn't it be nice if there was equal condemnation of parents who fail to provide warm dry housing for their children and fail to provide fresh and healthy food for their children?

          In the New Zealand context we have third world rates of rheumatic heart disease and ever rising rates of obesity and type 2 diabetes.

          But if we condemned the parents of those children we'd have to ask awkward questions about how on earth we've gone from being just about first in the world for producing healthy kids to where we are now.

          And it has nothing to do with poor parenting.

          But, however…just continue to deride parents who hesitate to vaccinate their children because they have genuine and well founded concerns… because that's easy.

          • Tuppence Shrewsbury 10.2.2.1.1
            10 May 2019 at 5:50 pm

            genuine does not equal well-founded

            • Rosemary McDonald 10.2.2.1.1.1
              10 May 2019 at 6:09 pm

              Sigh. And this is why a conversation about vaccine hesitancy belongs on a political blog.

              I am not going to link again to studies and media articles about instances where state funded vaccinations have caused actual harm and death of mostly children and the said state has either minimised these events or actually hidden them. Or continued using the faulty batch of vaccine until the drug company decides to withdraw it. Or the state uses the vaccine despite it's well known risks because it's cheaper. And then switches to damage control when kids die.

              But some of us remember the kids who were harmed, and some of us have spoken with their mothers…who until the day they die will never forgive themselves for allowing their child to have that vaccine. And before you say it…no, not autism. And before you say 'prove it was the vaccine', do your own research into the early MMR and pertussis vaccines.

              Politicians…a bit like our insurance companies who order clients to never admit fault or liability.

    • Ad 10.3
      10 May 2019 at 9:30 pm

      Vaccination is as much a part of citizenship as paying taxes and following the road code.

      • One Two 10.3.1
        10 May 2019 at 11:25 pm

        Ad…elaborate on that one…

        At face value the reasoning appears flawed…

        Share your thoughts?

  11. greywarshark 11
    10 May 2019 at 11:19 am

    A recent comment from marty mars on the commemoration of Captain Cook got me thinking – link below. (lprent Thanks for search function – so good.)

    https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04-05-2019/#comment-1613313 Note: It’s #14.

    marty mars is being ironic I think, when he says let's get the history right – because much of the concern is about whether Cook’s uniform is portrayed correctly!
    Me thinking about history:

    I am getting sick of expensive architecture to commemorate the past ie $16 million on WW1 and now Captain Cook – $20 million being suggested. https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/388808/20m-captain-cook-commemoration-ignores-maori-pain-critics

    My certainty is that the money should be spent on developing (along with Maori input) a curriculum that teaches our history, a working understanding of our civil and civic matters, what has made us what we are today – all the striving for better conditions and understanding, much of it forgotten along with the people who put such matters to the fore in their lives, forsaking idle gossip and personal enjoyment and even time with families.

    Instead they put their time, talents and skills to organise, go to meetings, keep pushing for something to be done by a responsible and civilised nation to rectify some wrong or poor practice.

    I want people to remember the NZ dream, and what we achieved – honour it, continue it! Let's use this Captain Cook anniversary to kit up our minds and our determination to carry on our achievements. Or are the leaders and powerful of our country of a mind to shut down NZ, is it finished now, and these expensive commemorations are to say goodbye to that time – dreamthat has run its course, now defunct and all we can do is accept and wave it goodbye.

    It's time for kia kaha and being as strong as Maori who have fought to retain the good things from their culture and a life for themselves despite the depredations of capitalist colonialism which bring some good, and then take out extensive payment for those advantages till the receivers are beggared. Historian James Belich showed us our tottering steps to greatness:

    The task of the pakeha was to 'smooth the pillow of the dying race'. … James Belich observes that the dying race theme 'persisted to 1930, a generation after census evidence showed conclusively that Maori were on the increase'. http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-StaMaor-t1-body-d4.html

    Just as the people in power did not recognise the situation as to the Maori strength and achievement in front of them, and proceeded with fatuous sentimentality to dismiss the vibrancy of the Maori people as they wished to expropriate their resources, so today's powerful have agendas that warp their vision about NZ and its reality.

    Let's learn about what we are and where we are and how we are going into the future. Turn that commemoration money into memory cells that we use to go forward and build a resilient country, a coping country, one that is self-sufficient and exports goods and good ideas that we have proved to be of value. Not the good ideas of neo lib that Roger Douglas and his ilk took to the world.

    • marty mars 11.1
      10 May 2019 at 12:18 pm

      No I wasn't being ironic. I agree with Tina

      Behind the exhibition is indigenous rights advocate Tina Ngata of Ngāti Porou. She says, “[It's] an indigenous voice, an independent voice, related to his arrival, related to the mistreatment of the indigenous people of the Pacific. It's an indigenous voice about Crown and government funding to celebrate what he did to us."

      The Tuia 250 commemorations by The Ministry of Culture and Heritage (MCH) will mark 250 years since the arrival of British captain James Cook and the Endeavour in Aotearoa.

      Tina Ngata says, “For us, it's a specific concern around the re-entrenching of colonial fictions within the minds and hearts of our future generations, it impedes indigenous truth, there's still a lot of colonial mistruth being perpetuated through these events.”

      https://www.maoritelevision.com/news/regional/artists-challenge-commemoration-captain-cooks-discovery-nz

      • greywarshark 11.1.1
        10 May 2019 at 2:00 pm

        What do you think then of my idea of starting a thorough-going curriculum of cultural and historical education for school children , as important as maths and science for secondary school kids. It would come into the sphere of having a broad education, not narrow concentrating on science as means for getting business growth.

        It would draw on information that Maori have, bring people-centred matters to the fore, look at conflicting cultural ideas, talk about problem solving and attempting to find acceptable solutions that wold help in working through cultural differences.

  12. ianmac 12
    10 May 2019 at 11:31 am

    We are so used to the huge complaints about the "failure" of Kiwibuild.

    It is a bit strange that the Media is echoing the complaints but it seems unwarranted to me. So it takes longer to get underway. Come back in 10 years with a figure be it 5,000 or 50,000 or 100,000 houses. So what? The current Government is pushing hard to get housing built. The last Government did zilch yet escapes censure. Politics. Bah!

    • greywarshark 12.1
      10 May 2019 at 11:45 am

      The preachiness and condemnation by the Opposition about everything Labour is so deeply hypocritical. You know that all the people who vote National will be absorbing it like blotting paper showing their deeply dysfunctional mentality, that they are incapable of establishing their real position in the world without using a GPS, and their sad dependence on the Great Man theory ie some Shining Leader who will always arise to assist them, and further their interests.

      They look for a government that will aid them so they can avoid paying anything but a modicum of tax which leaves them in a satisfying net positive position, receiving more from the state than they have invested. Good business they consider, similar to Trump Trump did-not-pay-income-taxes-for-eight-years-according-to-new-report Trump is their present Shining Leader in the absence of some charismatic capital accretor here in NZ

  13. greywarshark 13
    10 May 2019 at 11:32 am

    Police are initiating a useful service for NZrs with non-urgent matters that will connect nationwide. You still call 111 for immediate need and urgency.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1905/S00144/police-announces-non-emergency-number-its-105.htm

    We can believe that it is under way now and has been since 10.05 am today 10th of May.

  14. greywarshark 14
    10 May 2019 at 11:56 am

    Word play from Radionz end of week comedy 11.45 am.

    Scene – being hit in the ankle by Lime Scooter.

    Result: Apologetic – Apoplectic.

  15. Gosman 15
    10 May 2019 at 1:11 pm

    Phil Twyford does not come out of this report looking very good at all

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018694354

    • ianmac 15.1
      10 May 2019 at 1:50 pm

      You are a clever chap Gosman. Please provide context for me. What was the target for the previous 9 years of the National Government?

      What was the target and how many were built?

      If the answer is many thousands then I bow to their cleverness. If the answer is nil then the hypocrisy is mind boggling but predictable.

      • Gosman 15.1.1
        10 May 2019 at 2:45 pm

        Where is the hypocrisy? No National minister staked their career on a policy to build 100,000 houses over 10 years.

        • McFlock 15.1.1.1
          10 May 2019 at 3:22 pm

          No. They just claimed there was a crisis in 2008, and did nothing about it for 9 years.

          • arkie 15.1.1.1.1
            10 May 2019 at 3:26 pm

            Can't be blamed for not achieving enough if you never even try!

          • Gosman 15.1.1.1.2
            10 May 2019 at 3:39 pm

            Agreed. Their inaction was inexcusable.

            • McFlock 15.1.1.1.2.1
              10 May 2019 at 3:48 pm

              So phil might not meet targets he at least made and attempted to hit. Still better than inexcusable inaction.

              • Gosman …
                10 May 2019 at 4:07 pm

                Nice that Phil made an attempt. Perhaps he can get the Best Effort award. The trouble is he didn't state he was just going to try. He stated he was going to deliver or he would resign.

                • McFlock …
                  10 May 2019 at 4:21 pm

                  Well, if you say he said it, it must be true. Goneburger by August.

                • dv …
                  10 May 2019 at 4:24 pm

                  Still got 8 years to get there.

                • Ad …
                  10 May 2019 at 9:44 pm

                  He'd be better off if he looked after Transport, or Housing, not both.

                  Both Ministries and both agencies would appreciate the specific devotion, rather than the persistent over-promise-under-deliver within both of them.

        • ianmac 15.1.1.2
          10 May 2019 at 5:50 pm

          The hypocrisy Gosman is that Nats did nothing for 9 years and they/you demand action of Labour after 18 months. I heard you shouting at those kids.

          You yelled, “You bloody little shits stop your f……..g swearing or I’ll tan your arses, you little bastards!”

  16. joe90 16
    10 May 2019 at 1:48 pm

    Can we do this here, too.

  17. The Chairman 17
    10 May 2019 at 2:18 pm

    What is the point of Marama Davidson being in Parliament?

    https://nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.com/2019/05/why-is-marama-davidson-in-parliament.html

    • The Chairman 17.1
      10 May 2019 at 2:40 pm

      Removing the sanction on single parents this week is just the start. We will continue to push for a full overhaul of our social support system – MaramaDavidson

      Very good. That was said last week. So what has she done this week to progress that "push"?

      Had a look at the Greens website and her Twitter account and there was nothing touted.

    • Muttonbird 17.2
      10 May 2019 at 2:42 pm

      Your position as far left activist (further left than Marama Davidson apparently!) doesn't fit with your position in favour of spending hundreds of millions on a four lane highway between Otaki and Levin.

      Would the real Chairman please stand up?

      • The Chairman 17.2.1
        10 May 2019 at 2:45 pm

        Labour deferred it, thus spending on it now will cost less than spending on it further down the road

        Moreover, think of the bigger picture – i.e. housing. Housing in Levin is far cheaper than housing in Wellington, thus people need the better access making the cheaper home via the shorten travel time a more viable reality.

      • The Chairman 17.2.2
        10 May 2019 at 3:05 pm

        Your position as far left activist (further left than Marama Davidson apparently!)…

        Well, it seems I've spoken out more about welfare reform (in the public domain) in the last week than Marama has. And it's not my job.

        • McFlock 17.2.2.1
          10 May 2019 at 3:24 pm

          Not your job maybe, but you're an eager volunteer at every opportunity to criticise Labour or the Greens.

          Never encourage them, no. Just criticise.

          • gsays 17.2.2.1.1
            10 May 2019 at 4:13 pm

            Especially this May, the first month of a Green year.

            Pot referendum, carbon Bill.

          • The Chairman 17.2.2.1.2
            11 May 2019 at 8:54 pm

            Not your job maybe, but you're an eager volunteer at every opportunity to criticise Labour or the Greens.

            As I've explained, I don't create the opportunity/let downs and there is good reason to hold them to account.

            At least Marama owned (on the Hui) only 3 recommendations being taken on wasn't a good start. But she needs to better detail what she is doing about pushing for more.

  18. Fireblade 18
    10 May 2019 at 3:52 pm

    Jacinda Ardern has written an opinion piece for Magic Talk.

    Jacinda Ardern: Delivering on our priorities for 18 months.

    https://www.magic.co.nz/home/news/2019/05/jacinda-ardern–delivering-on-our-priorities-for-18-months.html

  19. Cynical jesters 19
    10 May 2019 at 5:38 pm

    I give credit to Ardern as pm and leader of my former beloved labour party for March 15 because that was exactly wanted from a leader I live a few hundreds of meters away from the mosque in linwood and she was a beacon of light but let's be real socially the only thing jacinda has delivered is a baby and free hugs.

    On mental health, welfare and housing this govt quite frankly cold hearted and slightly less vicious than national.

    Why couldn't this govt raise disability and get rid of the solo mother sanction this year? Why do we have to wait 5-10 years for disabled people to get treated with some humanity.they don't need hugs they need cash to be able to get out and about.

    When the pm quoted key the other night and said "work is the only way out of poverty" it made me sick labour and national always act like everyone on welfare is unemployed but some like my brother can't work… Ever … I guess he should just die because neither the labour nor national party's value his existence.

    Winters here and we've had quite enough of hugs and empathy thanks t, but we need immediate action there's more homeless people , More begging more suicide in my area than ever before and I'm sorry we don't have ten years to wait for incrementalism.

    So much for let's do this. If Savage or Kirk were around today I doubt they'd vote for any of the party's in parliament.

    At this stage jacinda appears to be another Trudeau. Internationally celebrated but became less and less popular domestically for not keeping his promises and now is headed for certain defeat. For all our sakes I hope I'm wrong.

    Start addressing poverty or piss off back to opposition.

  20. Puckish Rogue 20
    10 May 2019 at 5:58 pm

    I have a couple of suggestions for her priorities, being that I'm very helpful and all

    heres one: https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2019/04/child_poverty_measures_released.html

    'Child poverty under National dropped on seven of the nine measures, stayed static for one, and increased for one.

    Child poverty in Labour’s first year increased on seven of the nine measures and dropped on only two of them.'

    She also might want to look at that or maybe this: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/112565769/kiwibuild-government-no-longer-guaranteeing-100000-homes

    'Housing Minister Phil Twyford will no longer guarantee that KiwiBuild will be made up of 100,000 affordable homes, but won't say whether that target has been scrapped either.

    The Government's flagship housing policy is being "recalibrated" after an admission this year that it was unlikely to meet its first target of 1000 affordable homes built by July 1 2019. Just 80 have been built so far.'

    I'd bring something up about planting some trees but that seems to have fallen by the wayside…

  21. Morrissey 21
    10 May 2019 at 7:21 pm

    Stupidity, thy name is Maddow.

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