Daily review 20/06/2023

Written By: - Date published: 5:30 pm, June 20th, 2023 - 40 comments
Categories: Daily review - Tags:

Daily review is also your post.

This provides Standardistas the opportunity to review events of the day.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Don’t forget to be kind to each other …

40 comments on “Daily review 20/06/2023 ”

  1. Dennis Frank 1

    Fun in parliament. Marama was naughty, so the Speaker kicked her out. Seymour pretended to ask a question in Maori. The Speaker pointed out it wasn't a question (he's Maori). Then Seymour questioned the PM, (via the Speaker as translator):

    Rurawhe rephrased the question for him in English, asking Hipkins: “To you, do you consider me to be Māori?” Hipkins said it was up to Seymour to work out his own ethnicity.

    Damn good response, I thought! yes

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132370840/watch-act-leaders-reo-mori-backfires-green-coleader-booted-from-the-house

    • bwaghorn 1.1

      Could be a valid question as hipkins isn't sure what a woman is!!

      • SPC 1.1.1

        Who is the PM to question parliament's law?

        Parliament (every single member) gave the right to all those not born female to self-identify as a transgender woman (including change to their birth certificate).

        Any person who now stands by the historic definition of a women (an adult born female) is denying the legal status of other citizens.

        Which is the whole issue of whether biological sex (traditional) and gender identity (current).

        While traditionalists praise Sunak of the UK for his answer, there is the disturbing willingness to disregard the legal status of transgender women in the UK, How many other UK citizens are "fair game", say because they do not conform to some "traditionalists/traditions" perspective?

        • SPC 1.1.1.1

          Why was I unable to edit this within the 10 minutes?

          • SPC 1.1.1.1.1

            This I also could not edit, I am facing a block on what I can post on this topic from either wordpress (or GSCB).

            International sports are able to ensure fair competition and exclude transgender women. Local sport can do the same on grounds of player safety.

            Lesbian groups might seek the rights of religious groups (who do not have to approve of same sex relationships or marry same sex couples) and be able exclude those not born females.

            • SPC 1.1.1.1.1.1

              to continue

              Then there are refuges, the easiest regime would be to allow management to exclude anyone seen as a risk – they might include transgender men (born female) and transitioned transgender women but exclude sociopath misogynists self- identifying as women – which could include ex husbands or those drunk or on drugs.

              Then it is onto the changing room (community and school sport) and bathroom issue.

        • weka 1.1.1.2

          Any person who now stands by the historic definition of a women (an adult born female) is denying the legal status of other citizens.

          Not really. There is such a thing as female. Women is the word that most people use to name females. Female a category exists irrespective of what a country's laws say. It's not something that can be redefined any more than we could say water is made of fire and have it make sense.

          This is why some people talk about the legal fiction of gender identity. It's something intended to make the lives of trans people easier, it's not supposed to be taken literally (we come up hard against this in medicine).

          Further, the self ID law in NZ simply allows trans people to change the sex on their birth certificate in a more straight forward way. The law doesn't say that trans women are literally female. DIA has said that women will still be able to have single sex spaces and services, and that it's up to service providers to determine their own policies (birth certificates aren't the be all and end all). In other words, the birth cert doesn't act as a gender recognition certificate.

          Questions about the implications of self-identification for service providers

          What does the new law say about how service providers should consider birth certificates as evidence of sex or gender?

          The new legislation clarifies how birth certificates can be used as evidence of sex or gender. Where service providers need to determine someone’s sex or gender, other factors can be considered over and above the registered sex listed on a birth certificate. This reflects the fact that birth certificates are not intended to be considered evidence of a person’s identity (usually birth certificates are provided with other documents such as a driver licence or passports to prove identity).

          What does self-identification mean for single sex spaces and activities such as changing rooms and sports teams?

          The self-identification process should not affect how access to single sex spaces or sports is determined. Birth certificates are not usually used to determine a person’s right to access single sex services or spaces.

          Organisations and individuals can continue to rely on their own policies rather than birth certificates. For example, it is still up to individual governing bodies to determine how sex and gender are determined in sport. It is also still up to individual schools to discuss with learners, parents, caregivers and whānau what name and gender learners use, regardless of the details on their birth certificates.

          How will self-identification affect the placement of people in prison?

          The self-identification process should not affect the placement of people in prison. Corrections is exploring a policy change to ensure birth certificates are not an overriding consideration in placement decisions. Any changes will come into force alongside the self-identification process.

          https://www.dia.govt.nz/bdmreview—Frequently-asked-questions

          What we don't know is how social pressures will change single sex spaces and services. Self ID is both a legal change and a social one. We also don't know if there will be legal challenges to single sex status.

          Which is the whole issue of whether biological sex (traditional) and gender identity (current).

          Again, biological sex exists independently of anything humans say on the matter.

          While traditionalists praise Sunak of the UK for his answer, there is the disturbing willingness to disregard the legal status of transgender women in the UK, How many other UK citizens are "fair game", say because they do not conform to some "traditionalists/traditions" perspective?

          The UK situation is different from the NZ one. They do have a gender recognition certificate process, as well as protections for trans people in line with the rest of the population. They also recognise biological sex. They don't have self-ID in law (getting a GCR still requires a formal process rather than a simple declaration).

          I'm not sure what you mean by fair game. Some trans people in the UK have different legal status than other trans people because of the GRC.

          • SPC 1.1.1.2.1

            An article on the current circumstance in the UK, as to biological sex and legal sex/GRC impasse – yet to be resolved. Sunak's government is inclined to the former, as indicated in his answer to the definition question.

            https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/09/at-last-consensus-emerging-on-protecting-women-only-spaces

            Labour's – position shows where the consensus might be

            Another issue likely to figure in the general election is trans rights. “It is of legitimate concern for women that their rights in law to sex-segregated spaces, to their safety, to their dignity, are respected,” Mahmood says. “I don’t think it’s appropriate for anybody to try and imply that their worries or their concerns are non-existent, or not real, or that they are motivated by bad faith.”

            Labour is committed to single-sex spaces, she says, including in the prison system, in domestic violence refuges, and sport. She welcomes the review of the Equality Act triggered this week by Kemi Badenoch and the Equality and Human Rights Commission, saying that when Labour passed the legislation “there was an acceptance that in most scenarios the law would treat trans women exactly the same as women but there would also be other scenarios in which it’s appropriate for there to be a distinction between what trans women can access and what women can access”.

            https://archive.ph/P35aP#selection-999.0-1007.396

            • weka 1.1.1.2.1.1

              I know what the situation in the UK is, I'm just not sure what your point is.

              • SPC

                I would have thought it obvious. The relevance of reference to the legal definition when speaking as PM.

                Sunak's answer to the question has lead to focus on the legal standing there of those with GRC.

                The legal meaning of woman, as per single sex spaces, can have real world impact.

                I am sure you are aware of the court case in Oz – Sall vs the trojan horse (not a real transgender woman) and the one in the US (another trojan horse, also not a real transgender woman) where a human rights body adjudicated on access to a woman's spa.

                • weka

                  the legal situations in the UK, Australia and NZ are all different from each other, because we each have different sets of legislation. Which is why I’ve asked you below to quote the specific legislation and clause that you believe defines what a woman is.

                  Sunak's answer to the question has lead to focus on the legal standing there of those with GRC.

                  Kind of. That conversation has been going on for a while. Both Labour and the Conservatives are in a mess over this, which is a direct result of ignoring women who were raising the issues for years. Further, Stonewall etc have been lobbying to remove sex from law in the UK, that's a big part of why this is coming to a head.

                  • weka

                    I should try and do a post on Tickle vs Giggle. But the Australian law is both complicated and daft in terms of how it treats women.

                • RoseyK

                  What is a "real transgender woman"? Under self-ID, anyone who says they are a transgender woman is a transgender woman, surely?

                  • SPC

                    Yes under self ID.

                    When I use the term "not a real transgender woman" I am doing so cogniscient of 4chan and 8chan (Q “birther movement”central) operations to manipulate incels to two extremes – one is the celibate proud boys and the other are the "trojan horses" who claim access to women's spaces via self ID). These are people who wear dresses and falsies on a periodic basis (and have taken no hormones). Their purpose is to war on both liberalism and feminism – divide liberal women against liberal women.

        • bwaghorn 1.1.1.3

          The laws an arse then , gay people identify as gay, transgender people can identify as transgender, that's far more honest than trying to erase the fact that they are genetically or mentally wired differently!

          Own it be proud of it , don't steel womans identity and erase natural born womans existence.

          • SPC 1.1.1.3.1

            My advice is to stop with the silly comments (cheap shots) about the PM's answer to the question without regard to the wider circumstance in which he was doing so.

            And once again note, all parties in parliament supported the legislation.

            PS There is no difference between legislative and common determination on Maori identity (ancestry).

            • bwaghorn 1.1.1.3.1.1

              My advise is pull your head out of your arse, and realise that governments world wide have been gripped by stupidity, a man can never be a woman ,

              • SPC

                So you move from making taking cheap shots about the PM, to anyone who calls you on it. Classy.

                PS Your opinion about the issue is noted, but not relevant to the points I have made.

                • bwaghorn

                  My point was very relevant,

                  Hipkins did himself and every woman in nz a disservice when he failed to show a hint of spine ,when asked a very simple question.

                  You can be as Condescending as you want ,but you are wrong,and history will show you are wrong once the fools wake up.

                  • SPC

                    On what I am wrong?

                    • bwaghorn

                      "Who is the pm to question parliaments law"

                      You make it sound like it's illegal for Hipkins to confirm that a woman is not a transgender man.

                    • SPC

                      No. Merely that a PM needs to be mindful of parliamentary legislation, as to who is legally a woman when answering a question as PM.

                      I note you refer to an adult person, born male, who now identifies as female, as a transgender man. Have you heard of Ellen now Elliot Page and Camille Paglia, both former lesbians who identify as transgender men?

                    • bwaghorn []

                      I don't care about who wants to identify as what and whether I've got what's a transgender male vs transgender female arse about face.

                      Unless you where born with a vagina and a womb, (I allow there's bound to be the odd birth defects that doesn't entirely fit) you are not and never will be a woman,

                      As I said transgender people are best to own it and be proud, not lie to themselves

                    • weka

                      can you please quote and link to the specific NZ legislation clause that defines who is legally a woman?

                    • SPC

                      Inferred and not specified – check the opt outs.

                      Note that this act only has sex, and not gender as a category.

                      Either they have no human rights, or it comes under sex.

                      https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0082/latest/DLM304475.html

            • weka 1.1.1.3.1.2

              My advice is to stop with the silly comments (cheap shots) about the PM's answer to the question without regard to the wider circumstance in which he was doing so.

              He was asked a question he was clearly unprepared for. That in itself is remarkable given how big an issue this has been for Labour in the UK.

              The wider circumstance in NZ is that people are afraid to say adult human female and we have active No Debate. That would partly explain why Hipkins didn't know what to say.

              But we also know from the UK that eventually public pressure will force MPs to answer the question in a meaningful rather than avoiding way. There are far more people who think woman = AHF, than who think TW are literally women. The issue in NZ is how much bullshit we have to go through and how much damage will be done getting there, because we can have an adult conversation about the issues.

              I'm not aware of any legislation in NZ that would require the PM to say woman is anyone who identifies as a woman, as opposed to saying that “woman = adult human female, and in addition we have trans women who are a distinct class of people who also need to be recognised. Both groups have rights specific to them that need work to be upheld”.

              • SPC

                He has little choice until the HRA is changed to specify a difference between biological women and transgender women etc.

                They have the Equality Act of 2010 and we have the the HRA.

                • weka

                  please point to the specific part of the HRA that prohibits the PM from talking about AHF.

                  • SPC

                    Who said he was prohibited from saying anything?

                    All I have said, the PM has to be mindful of the legal position.

                    Sunak said stuff that led to the moves towards a clarification of their EA 2010 legal meaning.

                    Our HRA does not distinguish between biological women and the transgender woman. It just says sex.

    • pat 1.2

      More important is likely to be 'do Te Whatu Ora' consider Seymour Maori?

      • Shanreagh 1.2.1

        I doubt this as for years in NZ the test has been being able to whakapapa back to an eponymous Maori ancestor, or meet the tests to enrol on the Maori Roll and from my understanding Seymour is able to do this as do many other Pakeha-looking NZers.

        There would be 'hell to pay' if blood quantum or similar was used in this day & age.

        And even a relatively small amount of Maori will be enough to trigger/predispose towards some diseases. A friend whose gt grandmother was Indian from the sub continent was advised to always advise medicos of this ancestry as there are certain diseases that are more common in Indians.

        • tWiggle 1.2.1.1

          On the other hand, Seymour still has only one electoral and one party vote if he's on the Maori roll. He won't be able to vote for himself in Epsom then.

  2. Dennis Frank 2

    Poll update from Claire Trevett: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/talbot-mills-poll-shows-bounce-back-for-labour-bad-news-for-nationals-christopher-luxon-and-nz-first/ZKKVRXRJ6VEZLGEFU6YWXOGSII/

    Point of interest: NZF hasn't disappeared – as was suggested by disinformation the other day. Same old same old: Nat & Lab pollsters both show their parties in front…

  3. joe90 3

    The missing Titanic tourist submersible was being controlled with an off-brand PlayStation controller. At $250K/ghoul you'd think they could afford an upgrade to PS5 controller.

    https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/submarines-final-ping-suggests-vessel-could-be-trapped-within-the-titanic-wreckage/news-story/c4d784af7a528e372afb6b08fa3f97e7

  4. tWiggle 4

    guardian video 20/6

    This is a follow-on from Robert Smith's free pass in the 2020 ADF investigation of Afghan war crimes.

    "Lambie says senior brass have not been investigated over alleged war crimes and she has referred senior commanders to the international criminal court (ICC) in The Hague. 'The government is no doubt hoping this will all just go away. They're hoping that Australians will forget that when alleged war crimes in Afghanistan were investigated, our senior commanders got a free pass while our diggers were thrown under the bus,' she said.”

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