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Daily review 21/05/2021

Written By: - Date published: 5:30 pm, May 21st, 2021 - 120 comments
Categories: Daily review - Tags:

Daily review is also your post.

This provides Standardistas the opportunity to review events of the day.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Don’t forget to be kind to each other …

120 comments on “Daily review 21/05/2021 ”

  1. In Vino 1

    I am bemused by Demi Levato buying into the ridiculous effort that some are making to reject gender by substituting in the place of 'he/she/his/her' the plural versions 'they, them, their' etc.

    The last time this happened was the 'Royal We', when a powerful monarch like Louis XIV of France imposed their opinions on the rest of their courts by saying things like 'We are not amused.' Meaning, 'Don't anyone here dare laugh!' If you laughed before or louder than Louis XIV, you were likely to be exiled from his court, and so stricken from ranks of the nobility.

    Grammatically, it is a matter of linguistic accident that English personal pronouns are gendered in the singular, but no longer in the plural. In French, for example, 'they' is still gendered in the plural: 'ils' for the boysies, and 'elles' for the girlsies. How will Demi get on if she tries to speak French?

    There is a precedent in English where a singular noun like 'everybody' actually means 'all of us/them', so has a plural aspect to it.

    We say 'Everybody left their umbrellas in the hall.' It is too complicated to say 'Everyone left his/her umbrella…' But that is the limit.

    To extend this practice to the point where 'they' are supposed to be one single person, either or neither male or female; is a truly futile endeavour, and, to my mind, the height of folly.

    If the gender-sensitive woke think this is a practicable measure, I think they are dreaming.

    Normal people may not worry too much about what your gender is, but their natural speech patterns will keep singular separate from plural.

    I think Demi's efforts are doomed to failure. People will not tolerate confusion of plural/singular.

    Demi needs to find another gender-neutral singular pronoun.

    • In Vino 1.1

      Edit – I meant to write 'a powerful monarch like Louis XIV of France or Queen Victoria' but omitted Queen Victoria. Damn – I was not trying to present Louis XIV as of dubious gender… Try 'powerful monarchs like Louis XIV..'

      But that example shows why Demi's idea it will not work. People will want to correct singular/plural errors.

    • weka 1.2

      Me: my doctor is great

      You: what is their name?

      we already use their as singular routinely, in part to address inherent sexism eg assuming doctors are make.

      Their is way so simpler than some of the alternatives.

      I do find a fair amount of the NB stuff performative and will be interested to see how many people still ID this way in ten or twenty years. For those for whom it’s more genuine or a tool to manage dysphoria or mental/social distress I think empathy and consideration is warranted. There are political boundaries to be debated too (still haven’t seen a good rationale for why NB males should have access to women’s spaces).

      • In Vino 1.2.1

        Maybe I am an old fogey, but I would instinctively avoid the 'their' thing by asking,

        "Who is it?" (Or, "Who is your Doctor?")

        Grammatically, 'their' is used as an easy way of avoiding the burden of having to say 'his/her'. This was so long before any thoughts of sexism, and as I said above, it usually went with singular nouns indicating a group of people, such as 'everybody.'

        I agree that empathy and consideration are warranted, but I fear that only a minority of the population will take heed of that. The vast hordes will want to stay with his/ her where it is singular, and keep 'their' for the plural.

        In the very long term, it is possible that a different English language will emerge, where 'he' and 'she' will have disappeared just as 'thou' and 'ye' have already died out.

        But I don't think this woke thing of Demi's is going to work in the short term.

        • McFlock 1.2.1.1

          Gendered pronouns don't need to disappear. And you've figured out how to avoid gender assumptions for people in different roles.

          I reckon the broad acceptance of a gender-neutral singular pronoun will come sooner than you think. For one thing, loads of Demi Lovato fans will now change their linguistic habits. Just as fans of Elliot Page updated their language. And people who aren't fans might not… but then, after a brief flurry of activity, non-fans will be discussing Demi Lovato just as much as before the announcement.

          • RedLogix 1.2.1.1.1

            Funny how if it was a Maori place-name that was being misspelled or mispronounced according to traditional usage – there'd be all the usual suspects yelling 'racist' at anyone who dared demure.

            But when it comes to butchering a fundamental feature of English – i.e the use of gendered cases – then suddenly you're all for it.

            • McFlock 1.2.1.1.1.1

              "Butchering"? Overstatement, much?

              As opposed to deliberately mis-spelling an existing term as a careless or intended insult, the search for a gender-neutral pronoun in the singular is just another case of language being expanded to deal with concepts it wasn't previously equipped to address.

              "Computers" are now machines on a desk, rather than people in another room hand-calculating complex math problems.

              We have "robots" because "automatons" or "mechanical Turks" didn't quite denote the same thing.

              We now have a multitude of terms for different atypical behaviours or neurological conditions, rather than assuming demonic possession or a uterus taking a walkabout through the body.

              Heck, if you told Elizabeth1 that a "germ" was a microscopic monocellular organism, get ready for a demand to see a dictionar- oh, whoops, out of luck there, too.

              Nope, you're right, anything that can't be clearly expressed in the patois of Chaucer is fucking abysmal.

              • I Feel Love

                Thanks McFlock, esp that last bit, ha!

              • RedLogix

                The observable fact that we're not having this conversation in the 'patois of Chaucer' is sufficient evidence that languages do evolve over time. And that they might do so in an unconscious, organic fashion is entirely legitimate.

                But then you get that social engineering, ideological butchering that Orwell wrote so eloquently about. Fucking abysmal indeed.

                • McFlock

                  "Orwellian" now?

                  Newspeak was about subtracting from the lexicon's ability to communicate concepts, not adding to it. Your analogy is double-plus fail.

                  • RedLogix

                    Newspeak was about subtracting from the lexicon's ability to communicate concepts, not adding to it.

                    So how does subtracting out of the language the ineradicable distinction between men and women 'add' to anything?

                    • Sacha

                      'Ineradicable'? Have you not been following the last few years at least?

                    • RedLogix

                      I generally keep out of fundamentalist disputes because the true believers only want to 'educate' you about their convictions.

                      You’re welcome to invent as many new categories for the endless range of human sexual variation as you like – but equally it’s none of your business if a large majority of us continue to use gendered terms as we see fit for our own lives and experience.

                    • Sacha

                      'Ineradicable' sounds pretty fundamentalist from here. Gender is not like geology.

                    • RedLogix

                      In humans are indisputably male and female for all practical purposes. Biological ambiguity affects a very small minority in the order of 1 in a 1000.

                      You're welcome to all the gender variation you like – it's not something I'm interested in at all.

                    • Sacha

                      Then I suggest you do not talk about a "distinction between men and women" when you really mean males and females.

                    • RedLogix

                      Like I said, you're welcome to whatever gender definitions you like, just keep your nose out of mine please.

                    • Muttonbird

                      Fundamentalism, type of conservative religious movement characterized by the advocacy of strict conformity to sacred texts.

                    • McFlock

                      So how does subtracting out of the language the ineradicable distinction between men and women 'add' to anything?

                      Demi Lovato isn't outlawing gendered pronouns. Just choosing not to be referred to by them. Because they feel gendered pronouns don't adequately describe them. The new use of an existing term adds a new concept that can be expressed by the English language.

                      You can continue to ask to be referred to in whatever damned way you want, it doesn't subtract anything from you.

              • Muttonbird

                Yeah, English has a long history of being adapted and added to by its users. English is kind of founded on that ease of adaptability, borrowing and invention.

                So the search for new words in English by English users to describe themselves and the things around them is entirely legitimate. It has been going on for centuries.

                I believe Te Reo also borrows to describe things not of the Maori world. But it is up to Maori to administer their language, not for non-Maori to demand to be able to change it for their own convenience. That is colonial (and, by definition, racist) thinking.

                So, the comment above yours shows ignorance and intolerance on two levels: a disregard for Maori taonga and the strong-arm behaviour associated with that, and also a disregard for people wanting to use their own language to help them describe their world.

                I believe the motive for the attack was the mostly the latter, as some folk get mighty triggered by being asked to accept non-binary people.

                And, it is not "woke" to criticise ignorant and intolerant views. Rather, it is vitally important for social and cultural growth.

              • greywarshark

                Mechanical Turk? First thought, curiosity; second that must be racist, before I even know what it means. We are becoming hyper-sensitive, not just a bit more.

                • Sacha

                  google is your friend.

                  • greywarshark

                    I don't want to look up something in every comment I read Sacha. I do prefer to spend time on Google looking at factual stuff to back up my comments, or add a view to them, or see what is going on elsewhere. If I occasionally present trivia I think that is a healthy thing now and then. Looking up mechanical Turk is not trivia I can be bothered with.

                    I'm off in a moment to see what person, group was behind Hitler. It seems that everything has money behind it so he probably had shadow backers letting the madman do the dirty work. There is a lot that we don't know about everything important. So MT will have to wait.

                    • Sacha

                      Yet you felt compelled to say that the term must be racist. Why not just say nothing when you cannot be bothered researching the basics.

        • weka 1.2.1.2

          I’ll take them/they/their as singular over having to use these:

          [image resized]

          • In Vino 1.2.1.2.1

            True – I can't see these offerings being taken up broadly, either.

            Earlier on, I wondered if the fairly logical 'Ms' would take on for women who wished to be neither 'Miss' nor 'Mrs.' Mzz is not a natural sound for an English monosyllable, but the word is now accepted.

            'Ms' however was a new word, not an irrational subversion of already well-defined words.

            General usage will eventually determine what becomes accepted, so time will tell. Personally, I suspect that the majority of speakers will fail to adopt this 'they, their/ singular thing, and that it will not last long.

    • Gabby 1.3

      Must be lovely to be privileged enough to demand others accept one's own opinion of oneself as fact.

  2. Anker 2

    If Demi wants to do this, up to them.

    I just don’t want it imposed on me. I am a biological female. My title is Ms. And I want places in women’s sport for biological females. I also was change rooms etc for biological females.

    i don’t agree that trans women are women. I respect their right to identify as a different gender. And have always been respectful towards the very small number of trans people I have come across.

    • I Feel Love 2.1

      Remember that pushback on "Ms", now it's pretty much a non issue, though there's probably still people who refuse to acknowledge it.

    • Red Blooded One 2.2

      "I don't agree Trans Women are Woman" doesn't sound very respectful to me, and I'm sure no-one is imposing anything on you. Your comment made me remember Bob the Builder from Tauranga, "I don't mind the Gays, as long as they don't shove it down my throat" As a biological Male I will never understand how it feels to be Trans but damn it I will try to not make judgment's on them and will treat them in a manner I would wish to be treated. However, I too am struggling with the idea of our Trans Athlete competing in the Womans Weightlifting but I don't know enough about the science to know if they have an un-natural advantage.

      • greywarshark 2.2.1

        Red-blooded – I'm sure no-one is imposing anything on you.

        You must live in a tight little world if you don't understand the way that demands for new categories of being, are being felt by people who want to maintain humanity in its ancient and recognisable form and groups. And make allowances and tolerances for the few people who are different. Not have it regarded as a social fashion, like a re-run of 1960's anything goes behaviour.

        • Red Blooded One 2.2.1.1

          Actually I do live in a tight little world thanks greywarshark partly because of "people who want to maintain humanity in its ancient and recognisable form and groups". With maturity I am reveling in my grumpy old man status and as one of the few I no longer see the need to tolerate a majority, incapable of non-judgement and inclusivity. How wonderful it must be for you in your security of being in the majority that can relegate those of us who aren't, to being an "anything goes, social fashion"

        • Sacha 2.2.1.2

          people who want to maintain humanity in its ancient and recognisable form and groups

          Freemasons, for example

          • greywarshark 2.2.1.2.1

            Cheap slur solkta. When one turns an attempt to seriously discuss a contentious matter into a cheap joke rather than face up to being wrong it shows the limit to rationality in the matter.l

          • Sacha 2.2.1.2.2

            cmon

      • weka 2.2.2

        It helps to understand that trans women are biologically male, it’s their internal sense of themselves as a woman that makes them trans.

        TWAW is a slogan, and a mantra, that is routinely used to promote trans activist politics including propaganda and suppression of debate in addition to its more even handed uses. There are people being fired, banned, deplatfirmed, harassed, abused and ostracised for saying that trans women are male or men. Whether one agrees with either side, there is no doubt that pressure and imposition is great. I’ve not seen anything like it in decades of politics.

        Even people offering a compromise of trans women are trans women are being told to stfu in the worst of ways (and tellingly, it’s women saying this that get treated the worst and the left is sanctioning that).

        • Red Blooded One 2.2.2.1

          Thanks Weka, I literally have no Skin in the Game but how does it hurt a Biological Woman if a Trans Woman wants to consider themselves Women?

          Or maybe I should just bow out.

          I just wish people would live and let live.

          • weka 2.2.2.1.1

            That’s actually a really useful question.

            by and large most liberal people across the spectrum have had no problem with trans women considering themselves women. Including feminists. The law was adjusted to support trans people via a legal fiction (that sex can be changed). But there were limits on this eg in the UK the law allows exclusion of trans women where that is warranted due to women’s rights. Think rape crisis centres.

            the problem we have now is that there is a fast and largely undebated social engineering going on that creates a direct conflict between the rights of women and trans women. Should a woman’s refuge be obliged to house pre surgical transition TW (ie males who self indentify as women) with women who have been raped and beaten by males? Or should society continue to allow women to have separate spaces and for society to provide TW with refuges?

            that’s one example, there are many others that illustrate a current conflict of rights between two groups.

            • Red Blooded One 2.2.2.1.1.1

              Thanks again Weka, it is complicated indeed. In my limited knowledge I have been jumping to the defense of Trans Woman, assuming them to be Transitioned (as in Post Surgical Transition).

              Having witnessed a friends Grandson, virtually from birth, identify as female and is now transitioning, I hail her bravery and respect her enough to now think of her as a woman , well young lady in this case and if she articulates to me a preference of pronouns etc I will attempt to alter my previously comfortable him/her she/he narrative. Have a great day.

              • weka

                Agree it is complex. And many people not involved in the debate likewise assume TW are fully transitioned. Most TW aren’t. There are social, political and legislative changes happening that don’t take that into account.

                One reason why it matters is that the NZ govt wants to introduce self ID legislation this year to make it easier for trans people to socially transition. This seems laudable but there’s a huge conflict with women’s rights as self id allows any man to say he is a woman. This is already happening in many places in the world and discussion has been actively and forcefully suppressed. That alone should be raising alarm bells.

                Unfortunately individual trans people like your friend are going to get caught in the cross fire. And it remains to be seen if women will get to retain their sex based rights.

  3. Anker 3
    • Are we not allowed to say we don’t agree with something anymore? Otherwise we are not being respectful?
    • This of course is part of the problem.

    We are human mammals and mammals have two sexes, man and women.

    I understand that a very small minority of people don’t identify with their birth sex and they like Demi, are entitled to make this public and to ask to be treated respectively for it.

    to you I might hsve sounded like Bob the Builder, but I didn’t use his phrase, so no not really.

    we fought hard for Ms so a women’s title didn’t indicate her marital status. Have no problem with with other or some such being added when titles asked for.

    we agree on women’s sport. University of Otago released something recently that shows trans women have an unfair advantage over biological women. Of course they do. They have greater muscle mass (even if they have transitioned) they have testosterone and likely other hormones and they have advantages of height and statute.

    • Red Blooded One 3.1

      Absolutely Anker, you're allowed to disagree with anything you like, it is not connected to respectfulness (and before anyone else goes on about PC gone mad or Wokeness etc, don't bother with the latest Right Wing Lazy Slur, that's not aimed at you Anker) but you were the one who was, on more than one instance, highlighting how respectful you are which I simply thought denying a person their right to be who they are didn't seem very respectful. Agree to disagree. As intelligent Mammals we have found ways to correct other irregularities, Heart Defects, Siamese Twins, Cleft Palete, you name it. So if a Trans person has bravely gone through all that is required to be the Gender they assimilate to I will happily refer to them as they, or he, or she, whatever they prefer. I'm sorry but the "I don't want it imposed on me" was what reminded me of the "don't shove it down my throat" angle I found that humorous, no harm meant. Some of my best friends are …. etc (pick your minority.) They're all a bit red rag to a Bull to this old fella. But yeah, very happy to agree on the need for sporting competitions to be a test between people with equal chances and as you say I'm sure muscle mass, memory and testosterone can be considered making the playing field unequal.

  4. Anker 4
    • Yes red blooded one, I have mentioned a number of times I am respectful to trans people who I meet. Probably I don’t need to repeat this again.

    interestingly enough none of these trans women have said to me “I am a real woman and you have to agree with me”. If they did out of politeness, I would probably fudge it.

    however the situation that is problematic is the activists, many of whom aren’t trans, stating “trans women are real women” who then require that I accept or concur with this statement, else it means I am transphobic. I don’t agree with this statement. To me it is anti science and I believe the acceptance of this statement erodes biological females identity and their sex based rights. I believe shutting down people through intimidation, which is happening in many countries is wrong, and I will stand up for my right to voice my opinion, especially when it is based on objective science.

    btw I was told on this website by McFlook that I was being hostile to trans people because I described the statement trans women are real women as a mantra. But the dictionary definition of mantra is a statement or slogan that is often repeated. So how that is a hostile thing to say is beyond me. So I am not being respectful if I state my opinion based on science and I am hostile if I use the word mantra.

    bring it on guys. Your attempts to paint me in this way only serve to illustrate my point that if women question trans ideology, they are cast in a negative light

    • solkta 4.1

      Just because you wouldn't say what you say here to a trans woman face to face does not mean that you are being respectful, only phoney.

      • Anker 4.1.1

        Yes I suppose fudging it could be seen as being phoney when someone asks you a question and you think the answer could cause hurt. some would say it was well intentioned kindness or good manners even.
        Personally I think everyone does this at times, ie fudges the truth when you think the truth will cause hurt. But maybe you have never done that.

        very aware of the complaints against me during this debate. Phoney, disrespectful and hostile! Goodness me. Luckily I don’t agree with them, so it doesn’t bother me.

        • solkta 4.1.1.1

          Saying things anonymously in a public forum hurts people too. But easier that's true.

          • Anker 4.1.1.1.1
            • Yes people may read things on on-line forums that they find hurtful. Perhaps you would prefer me not to express my opinion?
          • Sacha 4.1.1.1.2

            Unresolved fears cause the strangest behaviours.

      • greywarshark 4.1.2

        Why can't one say either anonymously or under a pseudo or real name the truth about something important to them and society though it is unpopular; but resile from saying it to a 'trans woman' face to face? It isn't phoney, it is just respectful to the individual. Why is that not plain to you solkta? Did your mother not teach you any manners, courtesy.

        It is unpleasant being harassed by people who have something against you personally or your type – just getting a stare when there is nothing unusual about your appearance, registers. But saying it somewhere else to a group or family how you feel is quite reasonable.

        There were some images taken by a Muslim woman of how someone had abused her and thrown things at her, and she said it had happened a number of times before. The attacker seemed mentally unwell in behaviour and aggression. The Muslim woman did not care for this face to face behaviour at all.

        • McFlock 4.1.2.1

          Just as much as someone might not care at all for online speech that targets and hurts them.

          As for little familial, social, or workplace support groups to incubate bigotry with none of the 'other' around, well, it's surprising how long they can keep the old hatreds as an undercurrent in a community. But there are too many hot mics around these days to keep it bubbling to the surface, imo.

          • Anker 4.1.2.1.1

            Oh yes I see what you mean. The spiritual origins of the word. But in terms of that a mantra held special powers.

            nut I don’t believe that trans women are real women has no meaning nor do I think it has special spiritual powers. I think the phrase has meaning for those who agree with it. I just don’t agree with it.

            not being a very spiritual person, when I think of the word mantra, I think of it used in psychology to help people build self esteem eg “I am a good person”. I think I mentioned that before. But to be honest, I can’t see the spiritual or the psychological meaning being hostile. Just my view

            [typo fixed in e-mail address]

            • solkta 4.1.2.1.1.1

              That is an affirmation not a mantra.

            • McFlock 4.1.2.1.1.2

              "I am a good person" has an explicit and direct meaning.

              Mantra are much more about the vibe of the collected words and sounds.

              "Here we go, here we go, here we go" is an expression of collective expectation that gets its power from a crowd of people repeating it, not from the meaning of the words (half the time the "we" aren't going anywhere).

              "totality of the universe/jewel/sacred lotus/enlightenment" – well, one could meditate upon that for ages, and the chant helps, but it's a bit of a semantic word salad with a literal translation.

              "Trans women are women" is a clear statement with an explicit meaning one can accept or reject. One person can state it once, or a crowd can chant it repeatedly. It's not a "mantra".

          • Anker 4.1.2.1.2

            Are you saying McFlook that I am targeting trans people?

            weird because someone who identifies as queer on this site told me they had the first discussion on this site (with me) that didn’t go into an argument

            • McFlock 4.1.2.1.2.1

              Dunno about deliberately targeting. But I said "targets and hurts".

          • Anker 4.1.2.1.3

            Are you saying McFlook that I am targeting trans people?

            weird because someone who identifies as queer on this site told me they had the first discussion on this site (with me) that didn’t go into an argument

            • The Al1en 4.1.2.1.3.1

              You know? That you can't even write down someone's user name correctly, to me, sort of draws a big fat disqualifying line through any comment you make.

              As a site meant for robust debate, it's far too puerile to be taken seriously, so maybe do better?

              • Sacha

                Once could just be a typo.

                • Incognito

                  Or auto-correct …

                  • Sacha

                    In a different language.

                    • Incognito

                      Actually, I type-write in more than one language and when I don’t change the language setting/preference, it can be a real pain. Such is life for someone who’s (almost) bi-lingual. Some devices seem to remember everything I’ve ever typed in 🙁

              • Incognito

                As someone who sees behind the TS curtain, so to speak, I’d say that Anker does somewhat struggle with the technology and commenting here. I believe they’re trying hard so please don’t be too harsh in your assumptions and judgements.

                • The Al1en

                  I've consciously done it in the past, and though it's a cheap and easy laugh, I made a decision to stop it – Let your arguments and words do the put downs, and leave the brain dead comedy to morning radio hosts, who seem to excel at it.

                • Anne

                  Oooh what goes on behind the curtain? Sounds a bit salacious to me. 😉

                • Anker

                  Thanks Incognito. That meant a lot. Because it is true and the mis/spelling of McFlock name was an error. My apologies McFlock. I do struggle with technology, spelling and eyesight and I am often aware that I make typos on the Standard.

                  I don’t really go in for cheap shots like that and I do my best to play the ball not the person.

                  my experience on this thread is that is not what others are doing with me.

                  accused of disrespect, being like bob the builder, being a phoney, hostility, having a crap dictionary and IMO people getting very pedantic about the word mantra to try and back up the claim that I was being hostile.

                  I am here to assert my opinion and that’s what I did. I realised that some might not like my opinion, or want to read my opinion, because I made a typo with someone’s name.

                  I never thought too much about trans issues although saw a very moving and compassionate doco in the 80s about a trans woman. So I understood their suffering.
                  what I am against is debate being shut down, seeing other women, often elderly people who fought hard for homosexual and women’s rights, being excluded, having their views shut down, being trespassed from Pride, having the police called on them, mainly because they won’t repeat the statement trans women are real women. They merely want to debate the issue and preserve our sex based rights.

                  I do not accept the gender ideology trumps biological sex.

                  But again thanks incognito. I did appreciate you saying that about me and technology even though it exposes some inadequacy in me!

                  • Anne

                    I don't always agree with you as you know Anker, but I do agree with you that gender ideology does not trump biological sex. That does not mean I support the abuse and violence meted out to trans persons. It should be treated with the same seriousness as abuse and violence towards anyone else, but I fear it often isn't. It's the… well you asked for it mentality at play.

                    And don't give up. In the end, honesty always wins the day.

                  • Red Blooded One

                    For the record Anker, no-one accused you of being like Bob the Builder, I noted your comment "I just don’t want it imposed on me" reminded me of a comment he had made. (He, by the way, as you stated you didn't know who he was, was a National Party Member of Parliament from Tauranga yonks ago)

                    You came in as the provocateur with the statement "i don’t agree that trans women are women" so when some of us disagree with your statement, it's a bit rich to be pulling the Victim Card.

                    We are ALL entitled to our opinions.

                    • weka

                      If you weren’t saying Anker’s view is like Bob the Builder’s what was the point of the comparison?

                    • Red Blooded One []

                      My point was simply stating her comment reminded me of someone else's comment. It's no more complicated than that. Please try not to read between my lines or put words on my mouth. I am quite capable of screwing up my own comments without others making stuff up.

                  • solkta

                    I really don't understand how you can't see that someone can't be part of the LGBT community while throwing one of those groups under the proverbial bus.

                    • weka

                      So it’s like a club with membership rules?

                    • weka

                      The community that’s telling lesbians that sexual preference is bigotry and they should learn how to like dick so they can date trans women.

                      Everyone throwing everyone under the bus at this point.

                    • Sacha

                      telling lesbians that sexual preference is bigotry and they should learn how to like dick so they can date trans women.

                      Seems a fair stretch from someone saying that the term 'women' includes more people to insisting you have to be intimate with any of them. Some very confused thinking going on.

                    • weka []

                      Indeed, but this is what is happening. Lesbian dating apps include trans women and lesbians are called bigots or banned if they say they want to date only women. This has been building fir a long time. It will get more well known now that the issue is starting to affect gay men.

                    • Anker []

                      Yes I think it is best those women leave LBGTQ.

                      can you explain what you mean by throwing one of those groups under the bus?

                      Again it is the shut down of the debate I object to, and the brutality with which some of those women who are progressive by nature have been treated. They were there first ie many of them are elderly and have fought hard for women’s and homosexual rights. Not that that is good reason for other groups to go.

                      but it seems if you don’t accept trans ideology, then you are silenced and excluded in vicious and sometimes petty and childish ways.

                      I am not a member of LBGT , but my advice would be to these women would be get out and form your own organisation.

                      [typo fixed in e-mail address]

                    • Incognito []

                      Mod note for you 🙂

                    • solkta

                      So it’s like a club with membership rules?

                      When it comes to belonging to specific groups or using designated LGBTQ spaces yes. When i was at uni i spent time hanging out in the LGBTQ space provided by the student union (i'm bi). This space was there to provide a safe place for all LGBTQ individuals and attitudes presented by Anker would not have been tolerated there.

                    • weka []

                      Is it ok for women to have their own spaces with the rules being biologically female?

                    • solkta

                      The community that’s telling lesbians that sexual preference is bigotry

                      I don't know of any LGBTQ groups making statements like that. I don't personally know any individuals who have said or would likely say or think that.

                    • weka []

                      So your ok with lesbian only spaces that exclude trans women?

                    • solkta

                      Those would be a L space not a LGBTQ space. Anker was complaining about Pride.

                    • weka []

                      Sure, but that doesn’t answer my question and its an important one.

                      if lesbians who want spaces that are female only, should they be allowed them? Should such a group be allowed at Pride if they say nothing at all about gender id?

                    • Sacha

                      If lesbian feminists (with what used to be called a 'radical' position about interacting with men) want spaces that exclude transpeople, it would be good if they own that clearly with their words.

                      Call it 'FemaleSpace' rather than WomenSpace' perhaps.

                      Just don't expect that associating aggression with penises will do anything about lesbian intimate partner violence, for example.

                    • weka []

                      Lesbians don’t want to exclude trans people they want spaces separate from *males. Do you see the difference?

                      women and lesbians are being prevented from using women centred language. Because some people don’t want women having their own spaces. And ‘lesbian’ IS a word that is already women centred.

                      not sure what your penis/aggression comment is about. Obviously a huge part of lesbian culture has nothing whatsoever to do with penises, and I doubt politicised lesbians need to have explained to them the various issues around domestic violence.

                      honestly Sacha you seem largely unaware of what is going on in this culture war.

                    • weka []

                      You might want to look at how you got from “lesbians want female space separate from trans women” to “lesbians want to exclude trans people”.

                    • solkta

                      @weka

                      Excluding trans woman from a lesbian group is making a statement about gender id, obviously.

                    • weka []

                      solkta, you having avoiding clarifying despite multiple opportunities, I will conclude that you support spaces and boundaries for queer people but deny them for lesbians and other women who aren’t queer. Or something.

                    • Sacha

                      You might want to look at how you got from “lesbians want female space separate from trans women” to “lesbians want to exclude trans people”.

                      A functioning command of the English language.

                    • weka []

                      In English trans women is not equivalent to trans people.

                      I hardly ever see lesbians saying they want to exclude trans people.

                    • solkta

                      @Anker

                      They were there first ie many of them are elderly and have fought hard for women’s and homosexual rights.

                      No they weren't "here first". Trans activists have been around as long as any.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmen_Rupe

                    • solkta

                      @Weka @2.54pm but under my post @12.31pm

                      You have been trying really hard to put words in my mouth and i really don't appreciate it. You have been behaving like RL.

                      All i have been saying is that LGBTQ spaces are for all LGBTQ people. If L people want to have a separate space then that space can't be within LGBTQ space, ie Pride.

                      Also, inserting your posts out of time sequence is making all this hard to follow. As these aren't moderation notes this seems unfair.

                  • Incognito

                    You’re welcome!

                    As an aside, but related to this, there appears to be a cynical undercurrent flowing through TS. Although cynicism/scepticism has its place, especially when being vigilant and holding people in power (e.g. politicians) to account, it can and does spill over into the debate here on TS between ‘ordinary’ people who generally mean well and comment here in good faith. In my opinion, this has an overall negative impact on the discourse here.

    • McFlock 4.2

      Your dictionary is a joke. Maybe try one with a few more definitions of the word. With particular attention paid to the meaning of the sounds "often repeated".

      • Anker 4.2.1

        Me Flook….. dictionary definition of mantra…..

        cambridge dictionary “a word or phrase often repeated and that expresses something that people believe”

        you will need to quote me what your dictionary says.

        I have never heard it used without a positive association.

        but my list is growing

        I am

        hostile

        disrespectful

        a phoney

        like Bob the builder (whoever he is)

        and my dictionary is a joke!

  5. In Vino 5

    I guess we'll soon be speaking of pluralists and singularities..

  6. Anker 6
    • I just want to thank Weka for her very reasoned debate on here. And for sticking to the issues and highlighting what is happening with some trans activists tactics
    • I too have heard of lesbian women being told they are transphobic for not wanting to have sex with people who identify as lesbians who still have dicks. I be heard this second hand from reliable sources
    • Frankly IMO what happened at Wellington Pride was an absolute disgrace. Shame on the organisers. I have commented about it elsewhere.
    • whoever suggested I was playing the victim card, well you are entitled to think that way. I was wanting to point out that some people weren’t playing the ball, but playing the women. This has never happened to me on the Standard before. I know I make a lot of typos, but no one had ever suggested it was deliberate. Thanks Sacha and Incognito for suggesting an alternative (correct) explanation.
    • thanks Anne for your comments. I had the impression we agreed more than disagreed, but I don’t come on the Standard expecting everyone will agree with me! I respect your contribution hugely Anne.
    • solkta, I would encourage women who don’t accept trans ideology to leave the rainbow community. I am maIt’s become very unhealthy for them. I hope they all join speak up for women. But Weka makes an excellent point about does LB etc have rules? Isn’t it just a community

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