I am bemused by Demi Levato buying into the ridiculous effort that some are making to reject gender by substituting in the place of 'he/she/his/her' the plural versions 'they, them, their' etc.
The last time this happened was the 'Royal We', when a powerful monarch like Louis XIV of France imposed their opinions on the rest of their courts by saying things like 'We are not amused.' Meaning, 'Don't anyone here dare laugh!' If you laughed before or louder than Louis XIV, you were likely to be exiled from his court, and so stricken from ranks of the nobility.
Grammatically, it is a matter of linguistic accident that English personal pronouns are gendered in the singular, but no longer in the plural. In French, for example, 'they' is still gendered in the plural: 'ils' for the boysies, and 'elles' for the girlsies. How will Demi get on if she tries to speak French?
There is a precedent in English where a singular noun like 'everybody' actually means 'all of us/them', so has a plural aspect to it.
We say 'Everybody left their umbrellas in the hall.' It is too complicated to say 'Everyone left his/her umbrella…' But that is the limit.
To extend this practice to the point where 'they' are supposed to be one single person, either or neither male or female; is a truly futile endeavour, and, to my mind, the height of folly.
If the gender-sensitive woke think this is a practicable measure, I think they are dreaming.
Normal people may not worry too much about what your gender is, but their natural speech patterns will keep singular separate from plural.
I think Demi's efforts are doomed to failure. People will not tolerate confusion of plural/singular.
Demi needs to find another gender-neutral singular pronoun.
Edit – I meant to write 'a powerful monarch like Louis XIV of France or Queen Victoria' but omitted Queen Victoria. Damn – I was not trying to present Louis XIV as of dubious gender… Try 'powerful monarchs like Louis XIV..'
But that example shows why Demi's idea it will not work. People will want to correct singular/plural errors.
we already use their as singular routinely, in part to address inherent sexism eg assuming doctors are make.
Their is way so simpler than some of the alternatives.
I do find a fair amount of the NB stuff performative and will be interested to see how many people still ID this way in ten or twenty years. For those for whom it’s more genuine or a tool to manage dysphoria or mental/social distress I think empathy and consideration is warranted. There are political boundaries to be debated too (still haven’t seen a good rationale for why NB males should have access to women’s spaces).
Maybe I am an old fogey, but I would instinctively avoid the 'their' thing by asking,
"Who is it?" (Or, "Who is your Doctor?")
Grammatically, 'their' is used as an easy way of avoiding the burden of having to say 'his/her'. This was so long before any thoughts of sexism, and as I said above, it usually went with singular nouns indicating a group of people, such as 'everybody.'
I agree that empathy and consideration are warranted, but I fear that only a minority of the population will take heed of that. The vast hordes will want to stay with his/ her where it is singular, and keep 'their' for the plural.
In the very long term, it is possible that a different English language will emerge, where 'he' and 'she' will have disappeared just as 'thou' and 'ye' have already died out.
But I don't think this woke thing of Demi's is going to work in the short term.
Gendered pronouns don't need to disappear. And you've figured out how to avoid gender assumptions for people in different roles.
I reckon the broad acceptance of a gender-neutral singular pronoun will come sooner than you think. For one thing, loads of Demi Lovato fans will now change their linguistic habits. Just as fans of Elliot Page updated their language. And people who aren't fans might not… but then, after a brief flurry of activity, non-fans will be discussing Demi Lovato just as much as before the announcement.
Funny how if it was a Maori place-name that was being misspelled or mispronounced according to traditional usage – there'd be all the usual suspects yelling 'racist' at anyone who dared demure.
But when it comes to butchering a fundamental feature of English – i.e the use of gendered cases – then suddenly you're all for it.
As opposed to deliberately mis-spelling an existing term as a careless or intended insult, the search for a gender-neutral pronoun in the singular is just another case of language being expanded to deal with concepts it wasn't previously equipped to address.
"Computers" are now machines on a desk, rather than people in another room hand-calculating complex math problems.
We have "robots" because "automatons" or "mechanical Turks" didn't quite denote the same thing.
We now have a multitude of terms for different atypical behaviours or neurological conditions, rather than assuming demonic possession or a uterus taking a walkabout through the body.
Heck, if you told Elizabeth1 that a "germ" was a microscopic monocellular organism, get ready for a demand to see a dictionar- oh, whoops, out of luck there, too.
Nope, you're right, anything that can't be clearly expressed in the patois of Chaucer is fucking abysmal.
The observable fact that we're not having this conversation in the 'patois of Chaucer' is sufficient evidence that languages do evolve over time. And that they might do so in an unconscious, organic fashion is entirely legitimate.
But then you get that social engineering, ideological butchering that Orwell wrote so eloquently about. Fucking abysmal indeed.
I generally keep out of fundamentalist disputes because the true believers only want to 'educate' you about their convictions.
You’re welcome to invent as many new categories for the endless range of human sexual variation as you like – but equally it’s none of your business if a large majority of us continue to use gendered terms as we see fit for our own lives and experience.
So how does subtracting out of the language the ineradicable distinction between men and women 'add' to anything?
Demi Lovato isn't outlawing gendered pronouns. Just choosing not to be referred to by them. Because they feel gendered pronouns don't adequately describe them. The new use of an existing term adds a new concept that can be expressed by the English language.
You can continue to ask to be referred to in whatever damned way you want, it doesn't subtract anything from you.
Yeah, English has a long history of being adapted and added to by its users. English is kind of founded on that ease of adaptability, borrowing and invention.
So the search for new words in English by English users to describe themselves and the things around them is entirely legitimate. It has been going on for centuries.
I believe Te Reo also borrows to describe things not of the Maori world. But it is up to Maori to administer their language, not for non-Maori to demand to be able to change it for their own convenience. That is colonial (and, by definition, racist) thinking.
So, the comment above yours shows ignorance and intolerance on two levels: a disregard for Maori taonga and the strong-arm behaviour associated with that, and also a disregard for people wanting to use their own language to help them describe their world.
I believe the motive for the attack was the mostly the latter, as some folk get mighty triggered by being asked to accept non-binary people.
And, it is not "woke" to criticise ignorant and intolerant views. Rather, it is vitally important for social and cultural growth.
Mechanical Turk? First thought, curiosity; second that must be racist, before I even know what it means. We are becoming hyper-sensitive, not just a bit more.
I don't want to look up something in every comment I read Sacha. I do prefer to spend time on Google looking at factual stuff to back up my comments, or add a view to them, or see what is going on elsewhere. If I occasionally present trivia I think that is a healthy thing now and then. Looking up mechanical Turk is not trivia I can be bothered with.
I'm off in a moment to see what person, group was behind Hitler. It seems that everything has money behind it so he probably had shadow backers letting the madman do the dirty work. There is a lot that we don't know about everything important. So MT will have to wait.
True – I can't see these offerings being taken up broadly, either.
Earlier on, I wondered if the fairly logical 'Ms' would take on for women who wished to be neither 'Miss' nor 'Mrs.' Mzz is not a natural sound for an English monosyllable, but the word is now accepted.
'Ms' however was a new word, not an irrational subversion of already well-defined words.
General usage will eventually determine what becomes accepted, so time will tell. Personally, I suspect that the majority of speakers will fail to adopt this 'they, their/ singular thing, and that it will not last long.
I just don’t want it imposed on me. I am a biological female. My title is Ms. And I want places in women’s sport for biological females. I also was change rooms etc for biological females.
i don’t agree that trans women are women. I respect their right to identify as a different gender. And have always been respectful towards the very small number of trans people I have come across.
"I don't agree Trans Women are Woman" doesn't sound very respectful to me, and I'm sure no-one is imposing anything on you. Your comment made me remember Bob the Builder from Tauranga, "I don't mind the Gays, as long as they don't shove it down my throat" As a biological Male I will never understand how it feels to be Trans but damn it I will try to not make judgment's on them and will treat them in a manner I would wish to be treated. However, I too am struggling with the idea of our Trans Athlete competing in the Womans Weightlifting but I don't know enough about the science to know if they have an un-natural advantage.
Red-blooded – I'm sure no-one is imposing anything on you.
You must live in a tight little world if you don't understand the way that demands for new categories of being, are being felt by people who want to maintain humanity in its ancient and recognisable form and groups. And make allowances and tolerances for the few people who are different. Not have it regarded as a social fashion, like a re-run of 1960's anything goes behaviour.
Actually I do live in a tight little world thanks greywarshark partly because of "people who want to maintain humanity in its ancient and recognisable form and groups". With maturity I am reveling in my grumpy old man status and as one of the few I no longer see the need to tolerate a majority, incapable of non-judgement and inclusivity. How wonderful it must be for you in your security of being in the majority that can relegate those of us who aren't, to being an "anything goes, social fashion"
Cheap slur solkta. When one turns an attempt to seriously discuss a contentious matter into a cheap joke rather than face up to being wrong it shows the limit to rationality in the matter.l
It helps to understand that trans women are biologically male, it’s their internal sense of themselves as a woman that makes them trans.
TWAW is a slogan, and a mantra, that is routinely used to promote trans activist politics including propaganda and suppression of debate in addition to its more even handed uses. There are people being fired, banned, deplatfirmed, harassed, abused and ostracised for saying that trans women are male or men. Whether one agrees with either side, there is no doubt that pressure and imposition is great. I’ve not seen anything like it in decades of politics.
Even people offering a compromise of trans women are trans women are being told to stfu in the worst of ways (and tellingly, it’s women saying this that get treated the worst and the left is sanctioning that).
by and large most liberal people across the spectrum have had no problem with trans women considering themselves women. Including feminists. The law was adjusted to support trans people via a legal fiction (that sex can be changed). But there were limits on this eg in the UK the law allows exclusion of trans women where that is warranted due to women’s rights. Think rape crisis centres.
the problem we have now is that there is a fast and largely undebated social engineering going on that creates a direct conflict between the rights of women and trans women. Should a woman’s refuge be obliged to house pre surgical transition TW (ie males who self indentify as women) with women who have been raped and beaten by males? Or should society continue to allow women to have separate spaces and for society to provide TW with refuges?
that’s one example, there are many others that illustrate a current conflict of rights between two groups.
Thanks again Weka, it is complicated indeed. In my limited knowledge I have been jumping to the defense of Trans Woman, assuming them to be Transitioned (as in Post Surgical Transition).
Having witnessed a friends Grandson, virtually from birth, identify as female and is now transitioning, I hail her bravery and respect her enough to now think of her as a woman , well young lady in this case and if she articulates to me a preference of pronouns etc I will attempt to alter my previously comfortable him/her she/he narrative. Have a great day.
Agree it is complex. And many people not involved in the debate likewise assume TW are fully transitioned. Most TW aren’t. There are social, political and legislative changes happening that don’t take that into account.
One reason why it matters is that the NZ govt wants to introduce self ID legislation this year to make it easier for trans people to socially transition. This seems laudable but there’s a huge conflict with women’s rights as self id allows any man to say he is a woman. This is already happening in many places in the world and discussion has been actively and forcefully suppressed. That alone should be raising alarm bells.
Unfortunately individual trans people like your friend are going to get caught in the cross fire. And it remains to be seen if women will get to retain their sex based rights.
Are we not allowed to say we don’t agree with something anymore? Otherwise we are not being respectful?
This of course is part of the problem.
We are human mammals and mammals have two sexes, man and women.
I understand that a very small minority of people don’t identify with their birth sex and they like Demi, are entitled to make this public and to ask to be treated respectively for it.
to you I might hsve sounded like Bob the Builder, but I didn’t use his phrase, so no not really.
we fought hard for Ms so a women’s title didn’t indicate her marital status. Have no problem with with other or some such being added when titles asked for.
we agree on women’s sport. University of Otago released something recently that shows trans women have an unfair advantage over biological women. Of course they do. They have greater muscle mass (even if they have transitioned) they have testosterone and likely other hormones and they have advantages of height and statute.
Absolutely Anker, you're allowed to disagree with anything you like, it is not connected to respectfulness (and before anyone else goes on about PC gone mad or Wokeness etc, don't bother with the latest Right Wing Lazy Slur, that's not aimed at you Anker) but you were the one who was, on more than one instance, highlighting how respectful you are which I simply thought denying a person their right to be who they are didn't seem very respectful. Agree to disagree. As intelligent Mammals we have found ways to correct other irregularities, Heart Defects, Siamese Twins, Cleft Palete, you name it. So if a Trans person has bravely gone through all that is required to be the Gender they assimilate to I will happily refer to them as they, or he, or she, whatever they prefer. I'm sorry but the "I don't want it imposed on me" was what reminded me of the "don't shove it down my throat" angle I found that humorous, no harm meant. Some of my best friends are …. etc (pick your minority.) They're all a bit red rag to a Bull to this old fella. But yeah, very happy to agree on the need for sporting competitions to be a test between people with equal chances and as you say I'm sure muscle mass, memory and testosterone can be considered making the playing field unequal.
Yes red blooded one, I have mentioned a number of times I am respectful to trans people who I meet. Probably I don’t need to repeat this again.
interestingly enough none of these trans women have said to me “I am a real woman and you have to agree with me”. If they did out of politeness, I would probably fudge it.
however the situation that is problematic is the activists, many of whom aren’t trans, stating “trans women are real women” who then require that I accept or concur with this statement, else it means I am transphobic. I don’t agree with this statement. To me it is anti science and I believe the acceptance of this statement erodes biological females identity and their sex based rights. I believe shutting down people through intimidation, which is happening in many countries is wrong, and I will stand up for my right to voice my opinion, especially when it is based on objective science.
btw I was told on this website by McFlook that I was being hostile to trans people because I described the statement trans women are real women as a mantra. But the dictionary definition of mantra is a statement or slogan that is often repeated. So how that is a hostile thing to say is beyond me. So I am not being respectful if I state my opinion based on science and I am hostile if I use the word mantra.
bring it on guys. Your attempts to paint me in this way only serve to illustrate my point that if women question trans ideology, they are cast in a negative light
Yes I suppose fudging it could be seen as being phoney when someone asks you a question and you think the answer could cause hurt. some would say it was well intentioned kindness or good manners even.
Personally I think everyone does this at times, ie fudges the truth when you think the truth will cause hurt. But maybe you have never done that.
very aware of the complaints against me during this debate. Phoney, disrespectful and hostile! Goodness me. Luckily I don’t agree with them, so it doesn’t bother me.
Why can't one say either anonymously or under a pseudo or real name the truth about something important to them and society though it is unpopular; but resile from saying it to a 'trans woman' face to face? It isn't phoney, it is just respectful to the individual. Why is that not plain to you solkta? Did your mother not teach you any manners, courtesy.
It is unpleasant being harassed by people who have something against you personally or your type – just getting a stare when there is nothing unusual about your appearance, registers. But saying it somewhere else to a group or family how you feel is quite reasonable.
There were some images taken by a Muslim woman of how someone had abused her and thrown things at her, and she said it had happened a number of times before. The attacker seemed mentally unwell in behaviour and aggression. The Muslim woman did not care for this face to face behaviour at all.
Just as much as someone might not care at all for online speech that targets and hurts them.
As for little familial, social, or workplace support groups to incubate bigotry with none of the 'other' around, well, it's surprising how long they can keep the old hatreds as an undercurrent in a community. But there are too many hot mics around these days to keep it bubbling to the surface, imo.
Oh yes I see what you mean. The spiritual origins of the word. But in terms of that a mantra held special powers.
nut I don’t believe that trans women are real women has no meaning nor do I think it has special spiritual powers. I think the phrase has meaning for those who agree with it. I just don’t agree with it.
not being a very spiritual person, when I think of the word mantra, I think of it used in psychology to help people build self esteem eg “I am a good person”. I think I mentioned that before. But to be honest, I can’t see the spiritual or the psychological meaning being hostile. Just my view
"I am a good person" has an explicit and direct meaning.
Mantra are much more about the vibe of the collected words and sounds.
"Here we go, here we go, here we go" is an expression of collective expectation that gets its power from a crowd of people repeating it, not from the meaning of the words (half the time the "we" aren't going anywhere).
"totality of the universe/jewel/sacred lotus/enlightenment" – well, one could meditate upon that for ages, and the chant helps, but it's a bit of a semantic word salad with a literal translation.
"Trans women are women" is a clear statement with an explicit meaning one can accept or reject. One person can state it once, or a crowd can chant it repeatedly. It's not a "mantra".
Are you saying McFlook that I am targeting trans people?
weird because someone who identifies as queer on this site told me they had the first discussion on this site (with me) that didn’t go into an argument
Are you saying McFlook that I am targeting trans people?
weird because someone who identifies as queer on this site told me they had the first discussion on this site (with me) that didn’t go into an argument
You know? That you can't even write down someone's user name correctly, to me, sort of draws a big fat disqualifying line through any comment you make.
As a site meant for robust debate, it's far too puerile to be taken seriously, so maybe do better?
Actually, I type-write in more than one language and when I don’t change the language setting/preference, it can be a real pain. Such is life for someone who’s (almost) bi-lingual. Some devices seem to remember everything I’ve ever typed in 🙁
As someone who sees behind the TS curtain, so to speak, I’d say that Anker does somewhat struggle with the technology and commenting here. I believe they’re trying hard so please don’t be too harsh in your assumptions and judgements.
I've consciously done it in the past, and though it's a cheap and easy laugh, I made a decision to stop it – Let your arguments and words do the put downs, and leave the brain dead comedy to morning radio hosts, who seem to excel at it.
Thanks Incognito. That meant a lot. Because it is true and the mis/spelling of McFlock name was an error. My apologies McFlock. I do struggle with technology, spelling and eyesight and I am often aware that I make typos on the Standard.
I don’t really go in for cheap shots like that and I do my best to play the ball not the person.
my experience on this thread is that is not what others are doing with me.
accused of disrespect, being like bob the builder, being a phoney, hostility, having a crap dictionary and IMO people getting very pedantic about the word mantra to try and back up the claim that I was being hostile.
I am here to assert my opinion and that’s what I did. I realised that some might not like my opinion, or want to read my opinion, because I made a typo with someone’s name.
I never thought too much about trans issues although saw a very moving and compassionate doco in the 80s about a trans woman. So I understood their suffering.
what I am against is debate being shut down, seeing other women, often elderly people who fought hard for homosexual and women’s rights, being excluded, having their views shut down, being trespassed from Pride, having the police called on them, mainly because they won’t repeat the statement trans women are real women. They merely want to debate the issue and preserve our sex based rights.
I do not accept the gender ideology trumps biological sex.
But again thanks incognito. I did appreciate you saying that about me and technology even though it exposes some inadequacy in me!
I don't always agree with you as you know Anker, but I do agree with you that gender ideology does not trump biological sex. That does not mean I support the abuse and violence meted out to trans persons. It should be treated with the same seriousness as abuse and violence towards anyone else, but I fear it often isn't. It's the… well you asked forit mentality at play.
And don't give up. In the end, honesty always wins the day.
For the record Anker, no-one accused you of being like Bob the Builder, I noted your comment "I just don’t want it imposed on me" reminded me of a comment he had made. (He, by the way, as you stated you didn't know who he was, was a National Party Member of Parliament from Tauranga yonks ago)
You came in as the provocateur with the statement "i don’t agree that trans women are women" so when some of us disagree with your statement, it's a bit rich to be pulling the Victim Card.
My point was simply stating her comment reminded me of someone else's comment. It's no more complicated than that. Please try not to read between my lines or put words on my mouth. I am quite capable of screwing up my own comments without others making stuff up.
I really don't understand how you can't see that someone can't be part of the LGBT community while throwing one of those groups under the proverbial bus.
telling lesbians that sexual preference is bigotry and they should learn how to like dick so they can date trans women.
Seems a fair stretch from someone saying that the term 'women' includes more people to insisting you have to be intimate with any of them. Some very confused thinking going on.
Indeed, but this is what is happening. Lesbian dating apps include trans women and lesbians are called bigots or banned if they say they want to date only women. This has been building fir a long time. It will get more well known now that the issue is starting to affect gay men.
can you explain what you mean by throwing one of those groups under the bus?
Again it is the shut down of the debate I object to, and the brutality with which some of those women who are progressive by nature have been treated. They were there first ie many of them are elderly and have fought hard for women’s and homosexual rights. Not that that is good reason for other groups to go.
but it seems if you don’t accept trans ideology, then you are silenced and excluded in vicious and sometimes petty and childish ways.
I am not a member of LBGT , but my advice would be to these women would be get out and form your own organisation.
When it comes to belonging to specific groups or using designated LGBTQ spaces yes. When i was at uni i spent time hanging out in the LGBTQ space provided by the student union (i'm bi). This space was there to provide a safe place for all LGBTQ individuals and attitudes presented by Anker would not have been tolerated there.
Sure, but that doesn’t answer my question and its an important one.
if lesbians who want spaces that are female only, should they be allowed them? Should such a group be allowed at Pride if they say nothing at all about gender id?
If lesbian feminists (with what used to be called a 'radical' position about interacting with men) want spaces that exclude transpeople, it would be good if they own that clearly with their words.
Call it 'FemaleSpace' rather than WomenSpace' perhaps.
Just don't expect that associating aggression with penises will do anything about lesbian intimate partner violence, for example.
Lesbians don’t want to exclude trans people they want spaces separate from *males. Do you see the difference?
women and lesbians are being prevented from using women centred language. Because some people don’t want women having their own spaces. And ‘lesbian’ IS a word that is already women centred.
not sure what your penis/aggression comment is about. Obviously a huge part of lesbian culture has nothing whatsoever to do with penises, and I doubt politicised lesbians need to have explained to them the various issues around domestic violence.
honestly Sacha you seem largely unaware of what is going on in this culture war.
solkta, you having avoiding clarifying despite multiple opportunities, I will conclude that you support spaces and boundaries for queer people but deny them for lesbians and other women who aren’t queer. Or something.
You have been trying really hard to put words in my mouth and i really don't appreciate it. You have been behaving like RL.
All i have been saying is that LGBTQ spaces are for all LGBTQ people. If L people want to have a separate space then that space can't be within LGBTQ space, ie Pride.
Also, inserting your posts out of time sequence is making all this hard to follow. As these aren't moderation notes this seems unfair.
As an aside, but related to this, there appears to be a cynical undercurrent flowing through TS. Although cynicism/scepticism has its place, especially when being vigilant and holding people in power (e.g. politicians) to account, it can and does spill over into the debate here on TS between ‘ordinary’ people who generally mean well and comment here in good faith. In my opinion, this has an overall negative impact on the discourse here.
Your dictionary is a joke. Maybe try one with a few more definitions of the word. With particular attention paid to the meaning of the sounds "often repeated".
I just want to thank Weka for her very reasoned debate on here. And for sticking to the issues and highlighting what is happening with some trans activists tactics
I too have heard of lesbian women being told they are transphobic for not wanting to have sex with people who identify as lesbians who still have dicks. I be heard this second hand from reliable sources
Frankly IMO what happened at Wellington Pride was an absolute disgrace. Shame on the organisers. I have commented about it elsewhere.
whoever suggested I was playing the victim card, well you are entitled to think that way. I was wanting to point out that some people weren’t playing the ball, but playing the women. This has never happened to me on the Standard before. I know I make a lot of typos, but no one had ever suggested it was deliberate. Thanks Sacha and Incognito for suggesting an alternative (correct) explanation.
thanks Anne for your comments. I had the impression we agreed more than disagreed, but I don’t come on the Standard expecting everyone will agree with me! I respect your contribution hugely Anne.
solkta, I would encourage women who don’t accept trans ideology to leave the rainbow community. I am maIt’s become very unhealthy for them. I hope they all join speak up for women. But Weka makes an excellent point about does LB etc have rules? Isn’t it just a community
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Bryce Edwards writes – Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has surprised everyone with his ruthlessness in sacking two of his ministers from their crucial portfolios. Removing ministers for poor performance after only five months in the job just doesn’t normally happen in politics. That’s refreshing and will be extremely ...
TL;DR: These are the six things that stood out to me in news and commentary on Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy in the two days to 6:06am on Thursday, April 25:Politics: PM Christopher Luxon has set up a dual standard for ministerial competence by demoting two National Cabinet ministers while leaving also-struggling ...
Hi,Today I mainly want to share some of your thoughts about the recent piece I wrote about success and failure, and the forces that seemingly guide our lives. But first, a quick bit of housekeeping: I am doing a Webworm popup in Los Angeles on Saturday May 11 at 2pm. ...
It is hard to see what Melissa Lee might have done to “save” the media. National went into the election with no public media policy and appears not to have developed one subsequently. Lee claimed that she had prepared a policy paper before the election but it had been decided ...
Open access notablesIce acceleration and rotation in the Greenland Ice Sheet interior in recent decades, Løkkegaard et al., Communications Earth & Environment:In the past two decades, mass loss from the Greenland ice sheet has accelerated, partly due to the speedup of glaciers. However, uncertainty in speed derived from satellite products ...
Buzz from the Beehive A statement from Children’s Minister Karen Chhour – yet to be posted on the Government’s official website – arrived in Point of Order’s email in-tray last night. It welcomes the High Court ruling on whether the Waitangi Tribunal can demand she appear before it. It does ...
Mr Bombastic:Ironically, the media the academic experts wanted is, in many ways, the media they got. In place of the tyrannical editors of yesteryear, advancing without fear or favour the interests of the ruling class; the New Zealand news media of today boasts a troop of enlightened journalists dedicated to ...
It's hard times try to make a livingYou wake up every morning in the unforgivingOut there somewhere in the cityThere's people living lives without mercy or pityI feel good, yeah I'm feeling fineI feel better then I have for the longest timeI think these pills have been good for meI ...
In 1974, the US Supreme Court issued its decision in United States v. Nixon, finding that the President was not a King, but was subject to the law and was required to turn over the evidence of his wrongdoing to the courts. It was a landmark decision for the rule ...
Every day now just seems to bring in more fresh meat for the grinder.In their relentlessly ideological drive to cut back on the “excessive bloat” (as they see it) of the previous Labour-led government, on the mountains of evidence accumulated in such a short period of time do not ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Megan Valére SosouMarket gardening site of the Itchèléré de Itagui agricultural cooperative in Dassa-Zoumè (Image credit: Megan Valère Sossou) For the residents of Dassa-Zoumè, a city in the West African country of Benin, choosing between drinking water and having enough ...
Buzz from the Beehive Melissa Lee – as may be discerned from the screenshot above – has not been demoted for doing something seriously wrong as Minister of ...
Morning in London Mother hugs beloved daughter outside the converted shoe factory in which she is living.Afternoon in London Travelling writer takes himself and his wrist down to A&E, just to be sure. Read more ...
Mike Grimshaw writes – The recent announcement of the University Advisory Group, chaired by Sir Peter Gluckman, makes very clear where the Government’s focus and priorities lie. The remit of the Advisory Group is that Group members will consider challenges and opportunities for improvement in the university sector including: ...
Eric Crampton writes – The Reserve Bank of New Zealand desperately wants to find reasons to have workstreams in climate change. It makes little sense. They’ve run another stress test on the banks looking to see if they could find a prudential regulation case. They couldn’t. They ...
Rob MacCullough writes – Pundits from the left and the right are arguing that National’s Fast Track Bill that is designed to speed up infrastructure decisions could end up becoming mired in a cesspool of corruption. Political commentator ...
Looking at the headlines this morning it’s hard to feel anything other than pessimistic about the future of humanity.Note that I’m not speaking about the future of mankind, but the survival of our humanity. The values that we believe in seem to be ebbing away, by the day.Perhaps every generation ...
Swabbing mixed breed baby chicks to test for avian influenzaUh oh. Bird flu – often deadly to humans – is not only being transmitted from infected birds to dairy cows, but is now travelling between dairy cows. As of last Friday, Bloomberg News reports, there were 32 American dairy herds ...
On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
What is it with the mining industry? Its not enough for them to pillage the earth - they apparently can't even be bothered getting resource consent to do so: The proponent behind a major mine near the Clutha River had already been undertaking activity in the area without a ...
Photo # 1 I am a huge fan of Singapore’s approach to housing, as described here two years ago by copying and pasting from The ConversationWhat Singapore has that Australia does not is a public housing developer, the Housing Development Board, which puts new dwellings on public and reclaimed land, ...
Buzz from the Beehive Reactions to news of the government’s readiness to make urgent changes to “the resource management system” through a Bill to amend the Resource Management Act (RMA) suggest a balanced approach is being taken. The Taxpayers’ Union says the proposed changes don’t go far enough. Greenpeace says ...
I’m starting to wonder if Anna Burns-Francis might be the best political interviewer we’ve got. That might sound unlikely to you, it came as a bit of a surprise to me.Jack Tame can be excellent, but has some pretty average days. I like Rebecca Wright on Newshub, she asks good ...
Chris Trotter writes – Willie Jackson is said to be planning a “media summit” to discuss “the state of the media and how to protect Fourth Estate Journalism”. Not only does the Editor of The Daily Blog, Martyn Bradbury, think this is a good idea, but he has also ...
Graeme Edgeler writes – This morning [April 21], the Wellington High Court is hearing a judicial review brought by Hon. Karen Chhour, the Minister for Children, against a decision of the Waitangi Tribunal. This is unusual, judicial reviews are much more likely to brought against ministers, rather than ...
Both of Parliament’s watchdogs have now ripped into the Government’s Fast-track Approvals Bill. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāMy pick of the six newsey things to know from Aotearoa’s political economy and beyond on the morning of Tuesday, April 23 are:The Lead: The Auditor General,John Ryan, has joined the ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Sarah SpengemanPeople wait to board an electric bus in Pune, India. (Image credit: courtesy of ITDP) Public transportation riders in Pune, India, love the city’s new electric buses so much they will actually skip an older diesel bus that ...
The infrastructure industry yesterday issued a “hurry up” message to the Government, telling it to get cracking on developing a pipeline of infrastructure projects.The hiatus around the change of Government has seen some major projects cancelled and others delayed, and there is uncertainty about what will happen with the new ...
Hi,Over the weekend I revisited a podcast I really adore, Dead Eyes. It’s about a guy who got fired from Band of Brothers over two decades ago because Tom Hanks said he had “dead eyes”.If you don’t recall — 2001’s Band of Brothers was part of the emerging trend of ...
Buzz from the Beehive The 180 or so recipients of letters from the Government telling them how to submit infrastructure projects for “fast track” consideration includes some whose project applications previously have been rejected by the courts. News media were quick to feature these in their reports after RMA Reform Minister Chris ...
It would not be a desirable way to start your holiday by breaking your back, your head, or your wrist, but on our first hour in Singapore I gave it a try.We were chatting, last week, before we started a meeting of Hazel’s Enviro Trust, about the things that can ...
Calling all journalists, academics, planners, lawyers, political activists, environmentalists, and other members of the public who believe that the relationships between vested interests and politicians need to be scrutinised. We need to work together to make sure that the new Fast-Track Approvals Bill – currently being pushed through by the ...
Feel worried. Shane Jones and a couple of his Cabinet colleagues are about to be granted the power to override any and all objections to projects like dams, mines, roads etc even if: said projects will harm biodiversity, increase global warming and cause other environmental harms, and even if ...
Bryce Edwards writes- The ability of the private sector to quickly establish major new projects making use of the urban and natural environment is to be supercharged by the new National-led Government. Yesterday it introduced to Parliament one of its most significant reforms, the Fast Track Approvals Bill. ...
Michael Bassett writes – If you think there is a move afoot by the radical Maori fringe of New Zealand society to create a parallel system of government to the one that we elect at our triennial elections, you aren’t wrong. Over the last few days we have ...
Without a corresponding drop in interest rates, it’s doubtful any changes to the CCCFA will unleash a massive rush of home buyers. Photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: The six things that stood out to me in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, poverty and climate on Monday, April 22 included:The Government making a ...
Sunday was a lazy day. I started watching Jack Tame on Q&A, the interviews are usually good for something to write about. Saying the things that the politicians won’t, but are quite possibly thinking. Things that are true and need to be extracted from between the lines.As you might know ...
In our Weekly Roundup last week we covered news from Auckland Transport that the WX1 Western Express is going to get an upgrade next year with double decker electric buses. As part of the announcement, AT also said “Since we introduced the WX1 Western Express last November we have seen ...
TL;DR: The six key events to watch in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy in the week to April 29 include:PM Christopher Luxon is scheduled to hold a post-Cabinet news conference at 4 pm today. Stats NZ releases its statutory report on Census 2023 tomorrow.Finance Minister Nicola Willis delivers a pre-Budget speech at ...
A listing of 29 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, April 14, 2024 thru Sat, April 20, 2024. Story of the week Our story of the week hinges on these words from the abstract of a fresh academic ...
The ability of the private sector to quickly establish major new projects making use of the urban and natural environment is to be supercharged by the new National-led Government. Yesterday it introduced to Parliament one of its most significant reforms, the Fast Track Approvals Bill. The Government says this will ...
This is a column to say thank you. So many of have been in touch since Mum died to say so many kind and thoughtful things. You’re wonderful, all of you. You’ve asked how we’re doing, how Dad’s doing. A little more realisation each day, of the irretrievable finality of ...
Identifying the engine type in your car is crucial for various reasons, including maintenance, repairs, and performance upgrades. Knowing the specific engine model allows you to access detailed technical information, locate compatible parts, and make informed decisions about modifications. This comprehensive guide will provide you with a step-by-step approach to ...
Introduction: The allure of racing is undeniable. The thrill of speed, the roar of engines, and the exhilaration of competition all contribute to the allure of this adrenaline-driven sport. For those who yearn to experience the pinnacle of racing, becoming a race car driver is the ultimate dream. However, the ...
Introduction Automobiles have become ubiquitous in modern society, serving as a primary mode of transportation and a symbol of economic growth and personal mobility. With countless vehicles traversing roads and highways worldwide, it begs the question: how many cars are there in the world? Determining the precise number is a ...
Maintaining a safe and reliable vehicle requires regular inspections. Whether it’s a routine maintenance checkup or a safety inspection, knowing how long the process will take can help you plan your day accordingly. This article delves into the factors that influence the duration of a car inspection and provides an ...
Mazda Motor Corporation, commonly known as Mazda, is a Japanese multinational automaker headquartered in Fuchu, Aki District, Hiroshima Prefecture, Japan. The company was founded in 1920 as the Toyo Cork Kogyo Co., Ltd., and began producing vehicles in 1931. Mazda is primarily known for its production of passenger cars, but ...
Your car battery is an essential component that provides power to start your engine, operate your electrical systems, and store energy. Over time, batteries can weaken and lose their ability to hold a charge, which can lead to starting problems, power failures, and other issues. Replacing your battery before it ...
In most states, you cannot register a car without a valid driver’s license. However, there are a few exceptions to this rule. Exceptions to the RuleIf you are under 18 years old: In some states, you can register a car in your name even if you do not ...
Mazda, a Japanese automotive manufacturer with a rich history of innovation and engineering excellence, has emerged as a formidable player in the global car market. Known for its reputation of producing high-quality, fuel-efficient, and driver-oriented vehicles, Mazda has consistently garnered praise from industry experts and consumers alike. In this article, ...
Struts are an essential part of a car’s suspension system. They are responsible for supporting the weight of the car and damping the oscillations of the springs. Struts are typically made of steel or aluminum and are filled with hydraulic fluid. How Do Struts Work? Struts work by transferring the ...
Car registration is a mandatory process that all vehicle owners must complete annually. This process involves registering your car with the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) and paying an associated fee. The registration process ensures that your vehicle is properly licensed and insured, and helps law enforcement and other authorities ...
Zoom is a video conferencing service that allows you to share your screen, webcam, and audio with other participants. In addition to sharing your own audio, you can also share the audio from your computer with other participants. This can be useful for playing music, sharing presentations with audio, or ...
Building your own computer can be a rewarding and cost-effective way to get a high-performance machine tailored to your specific needs. However, it also requires careful planning and execution, and one of the most important factors to consider is the time it will take. The exact time it takes to ...
Te Pāti Māori are demanding the New Zealand Government support an international independent investigation into mass graves that have been uncovered at two hospitals on the Gaza strip, following weeks of assault by Israeli troops. Among the 392 bodies that have been recovered, are children and elderly civilians. Many of ...
Our two-tiered system for veterans’ support is out of step with our closest partners, and all parties in Parliament should work together to fix it, Labour veterans’ affairs spokesperson Greg O’Connor said. ...
Stripping two Ministers of their portfolios just six months into the job shows Christopher Luxon’s management style is lacking, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said. ...
Tonight’s court decision to overturn the summons of the Children’s Minister has enabled the Crown to continue making decisions about Māori without evidence, says Te Pāti Māori spokesperson for Children, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “The judicial system has this evening told the nation that this government can do whatever they want when ...
It appears Nicola Willis is about to pull the rug out from under the feet of local communities still dealing with the aftermath of last year’s severe weather, and local councils relying on funding to build back from these disasters. ...
The Government is making short-sighted changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA) that will take away environmental protection in favour of short-term profits, Labour’s environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
Labour welcomes the release of the report into the North Island weather events and looks forward to working with the Government to ensure that New Zealand is as prepared as it can be for the next natural disaster. ...
The Labour Party has called for the New Zealand Government to recognise Palestine, as a material step towards progressing the two-State solution needed to achieve a lasting peace in the region. ...
Some of our country’s most important work, stopping the sexual exploitation of children and violent extremism could go along with staff on the frontline at ports and airports. ...
The Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill will give projects such as new coal mines a ‘get out of jail free’ card to wreak havoc on the environment, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The government's decision to reintroduce Three Strikes is a destructive and ineffective piece of law-making that will only exacerbate an inherently biased and racist criminal justice system, said Te Pāti Māori Justice Spokesperson, Tākuta Ferris, today. During the time Three Strikes was in place in Aotearoa, Māori and Pasifika received ...
Cuts to frontline hospital staff are not only a broken election promise, it shows the reckless tax cuts have well and truly hit the frontline of the health system, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
The Green Party has joined the call for public submissions on the fast-track legislation to be extended after the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the list of organisations invited to apply just hours before submissions close. ...
New Zealand’s good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National government’s lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
More essential jobs could be on the chopping block, this time Ministry of Education staff on the school lunches team are set to find out whether they're in line to lose their jobs. ...
Te Pāti Māori is disgusted at the confirmation that hundreds are set to lose their jobs at Oranga Tamariki, and the disestablishment of the Treaty Response Unit. “This act of absolute carelessness and out of touch decision making is committing tamariki to state abuse.” Said Te Pāti Māori Oranga Tamariki ...
The Government is trying to bring in a law that will allow Ministers to cut corners and kill off native species, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said. ...
Cancelling urgently needed new Cook Strait ferries and hiking the cost of public transport for many Kiwis so that National can announce the prospect of another tunnel for Wellington is not making good choices, Labour Transport Spokesperson Tangi Utikere said. ...
A laundry list of additional costs for Tāmaki Makarau Auckland shows the Minister for the city is not delivering for the people who live there, says Labour Auckland Issues spokesperson Shanan Halbert. ...
Te Pāti Māori co-leader Rawiri Waititi, and Mema Paremata mō Tāmaki-Makaurau, Takutai Tarsh Kemp, will travel to the Gold Coast to strengthen ties with Māori in Australia next week (15-21 April). The visit, in the lead-up to the 9th Australian National Kapa haka Festival, will be an opportunity for both ...
The Green Party has today launched a step-by-step guide to help New Zealanders make their voice heard on the Government’s democracy dodging and anti-environment fast track legislation. ...
The National Government’s proposed changes to the Residential Tenancies Act will mean tenants can be turfed from their homes by landlords with little notice, Labour housing spokesperson Kieran McAnulty said. ...
Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson is calling on all parties to support a common-sense change that’s great for the planet and great for consumers after her member’s bill was drawn from the ballot today. ...
A significant milestone has been reached in the fight to strike an anti-Pasifika and unfair law from the country’s books after Teanau Tuiono’s members’ bill passed its first reading. ...
New Zealand has today missed the opportunity to uphold the right to a clean, healthy, and sustainable environment, says James Shaw after his member’s bill was voted down in its first reading. ...
Today’s advice from the Climate Change Commission paints a sobering reality of the challenge we face in combating climate change, especially in light of recent Government policy announcements. ...
Minister for Disability Issues Penny Simmonds appears to have delayed a report back to Cabinet on the progress New Zealand is making against international obligations for disabled New Zealanders. ...
Hundreds of New Zealand families affected by Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD) will benefit from a new Government focus on prevention and treatment, says Health Minister Dr Shane Reti. “We know FASD is a leading cause of preventable intellectual and neurodevelopmental disability in New Zealand,” Dr Reti says. “Every day, ...
Regional Development Minister Shane Jones today attended the official opening of Kaikohe’s new $14.7 million sports complex. “The completion of the Kaikohe Multi Sports Complex is a fantastic achievement for the Far North,” Mr Jones says. “This facility not only fulfils a long-held dream for local athletes, but also creates ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters’ engagements in Türkiye this week underlined the importance of diplomacy to meet growing global challenges. “Returning to the Gallipoli Peninsula to represent New Zealand at Anzac commemorations was a sombre reminder of the critical importance of diplomacy for de-escalating conflicts and easing tensions,” Mr Peters ...
Ambassador Millar, Burgemeester, Vandepitte, Excellencies, military representatives, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen – good morning and welcome to this sacred Anzac Day dawn service. It is an honour to be here on behalf of the Government and people of New Zealand at Buttes New British Cemetery, Polygon Wood – a deeply ...
Distinguished guests - It is an honour to return once again to this site which, as the resting place for so many of our war-dead, has become a sacred place for generations of New Zealanders. Our presence here and at the other special spaces of Gallipoli is made ...
Mai ia tawhiti pamamao, te moana nui a Kiwa, kua tae whakaiti mai matou, ki to koutou papa whenua. No koutou te tapuwae, no matou te tapuwae, kua honoa pumautia. Ko nga toa kua hinga nei, o te Waipounamu, o te Ika a Maui, he okioki tahi me o ...
Paul Goldsmith will take on responsibility for the Media and Communications portfolio, while Louise Upston will pick up the Disability Issues portfolio, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon announced today. “Our Government is relentlessly focused on getting New Zealand back on track. As issues change in prominence, I plan to adjust Ministerial ...
Recreational catch limits will be reduced in areas of Fiordland and the Chatham Islands to help keep those fisheries healthy and sustainable, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. The lower recreational daily catch limits for a range of finfish and shellfish species caught in the Fiordland Marine Area and ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed an important milestone in New Zealand’s hydrogen future, with the opening of the country’s first network of hydrogen refuelling stations in Wiri. “I want to congratulate the team at Hiringa Energy and its partners K one W one (K1W1), Mitsui & Co New Zealand ...
The coalition Government is delivering on its commitment to improve resource management laws and give greater certainty to consent applicants, with a Bill to amend the Resource Management Act (RMA) expected to be introduced to Parliament next month. RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop has today outlined the first RMA Amendment ...
Overseas models for regulating the oil and gas sector, including their decommissioning regimes, are being carefully scrutinised as a potential template for New Zealand’s own sector, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. The Coalition Government is focused on rebuilding investor confidence in New Zealand’s energy sector as it looks to strengthen ...
Emergency Management and Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell has today released the Report of the Government Inquiry into the response to the North Island Severe Weather Events. “The report shows that New Zealand’s emergency management system is not fit-for-purpose and there are some significant gaps we need to address,” Mr Mitchell ...
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith is today travelling to Europe where he’ll update the United Nations Human Rights Council on the Government’s work to restore law and order. “Attending the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva provides us with an opportunity to present New Zealand’s human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while ...
Associate Agriculture Minister, Mark Patterson, formally reopened the world’s largest wool processing facility today in Awatoto, Napier, following a $50 million rebuild and refurbishment project. “The reopening of this facility will significantly lift the economic opportunities available to New Zealand’s wool sector, which already accounts for 20 per cent of ...
Hon Andrew Bayly, Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing At the Southland Otago Regional Engineering Collective (SOREC) Summit, 18 April, Dunedin Ngā mihi nui, Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Ko Whanganui aho Good Afternoon and thank you for inviting me to open your summit today. I am delighted ...
The Government is delivering on its commitment to bring back the Three Strikes legislation, Associate Justice Minister Nicole McKee announced today. “Our Government is committed to restoring law and order and enforcing appropriate consequences on criminals. We are making it clear that repeat serious violent or sexual offending is not ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has today announced four new diplomatic appointments for New Zealand’s overseas missions. “Our diplomats have a vital role in maintaining and protecting New Zealand’s interests around the world,” Mr Peters says. “I am pleased to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the ...
New Zealand is contributing NZ$7 million to support communities affected by severe food insecurity and other urgent humanitarian needs in Ethiopia and Somalia, Foreign Minister Rt Hon Winston Peters announced today. “Over 21 million people are in need of humanitarian assistance across Ethiopia, with a further 6.9 million people ...
Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Paul Goldsmith is congratulating Mataaho Collective for winning the Golden Lion for best participant in the main exhibition at the Venice Biennale. "Congratulations to the Mataaho Collective for winning one of the world's most prestigious art prizes at the Venice Biennale. “It is good ...
The Government is reforming financial services to improve access to home loans and other lending, and strengthen customer protections, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly and Housing Minister Chris Bishop announced today. “Our coalition Government is committed to rebuilding the economy and making life simpler by cutting red tape. We are ...
“China remains a strong commercial opportunity for Kiwi exporters as Chinese businesses and consumers continue to value our high-quality safe produce,” Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay says. Mr McClay has returned to New Zealand following visits to Beijing, Harbin and Shanghai where he met ministers, governors and mayors and engaged in trade and agricultural events with the New ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has completed a successful trip to Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines, deepening relationships and capitalising on opportunities. Mr Luxon was accompanied by a business delegation and says the choice of countries represents the priority the New Zealand Government places on South East Asia, and our relationships in ...
New Zealand is demonstrating its commitment to reducing global greenhouse emissions, and supporting clean energy transition in South East Asia, through a contribution of NZ$41 million (US$25 million) in climate finance to the Asian Development Bank (ADB)-led Energy Transition Mechanism (ETM). Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Climate Change Minister Simon Watts announced ...
The Government is today releasing a list of organisations who received letters about the Fast-track applications process, says RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop. “Recently Ministers and agencies have received a series of OIA requests for a list of organisations to whom I wrote with information on applying to have a ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced the appointment of Wellington Barrister David Jonathan Boldt as a Judge of the High Court, and the Honourable Justice Matthew Palmer as a Judge of the Court of Appeal. Justice Boldt graduated with an LLB from Victoria University of Wellington in 1990, and also holds ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford will lead the New Zealand delegation at the 2024 International Summit on the Teaching Profession (ISTP) held in Singapore. The delegation includes representatives from the Post Primary Teachers’ Association (PPTA) Te Wehengarua and the New Zealand Educational Institute (NZEI) Te Riu Roa. The summit is co-hosted ...
A stopbank upgrade project in Tairawhiti partly funded by the Government has increased flood resilience for around 7000ha of residential and horticultural land so far, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones today attended a dawn service in Gisborne to mark the end of the first stage of the ...
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters will represent the Government at Anzac Day commemorations on the Gallipoli Peninsula next week and engage with senior representatives of the Turkish government in Istanbul. “The Gallipoli campaign is a defining event in our history. It will be a privilege to share the occasion ...
Science, Innovation and Technology and Defence Minister Judith Collins will next week attend the OECD Science and Technology Ministerial conference in Paris and Anzac Day commemorations in Belgium. “Science, innovation and technology have a major role to play in rebuilding our economy and achieving better health, environmental and social outcomes ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with the President of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos Jr. The Prime Minister was accompanied by MP Paulo Garcia, the first Filipino to be elected to a legislature outside the Philippines. During today’s meeting, Prime Minister Luxon and President Marcos Jr discussed opportunities to ...
The Government has announced that $20 million in funding will be made available to Westport to fund much needed flood protection around the town. This measure will significantly improve the resilience of the community, says Local Government Minister Simeon Brown. “The Westport community has already been allocated almost $3 million ...
The Government is proud to support the first ever Repco Supercars Championship event in Taupō as up to 70,000 motorsport fans attend the Taupō International Motorsport Park this weekend, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. “Anticipation for the ITM Taupō Super400 is huge, with tickets and accommodation selling out weeks ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced an increase to the Rates Rebate Scheme, putting money back into the pockets of low-income homeowners. “The coalition Government is committed to bringing down the cost of living for New Zealanders. That includes targeted support for those Kiwis who are doing things tough, such ...
The Coalition Government is investing in a project to boost survival rates of New Zealand mussels and grow the industry, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones has announced. “This project seeks to increase the resilience of our mussels and significantly boost the sector’s productivity,” Mr Jones says. “The project - ...
Benefit figures released today underscore the importance of the Government’s plan to rebuild the economy and have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker Support, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “Benefit numbers are still significantly higher than when National was last in government, when there was about 70,000 fewer ...
The Government’s commitment to doubling New Zealand’s renewable energy capacity is backed by new data showing that clean energy has helped the country reach its lowest annual gross emissions since 1999, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. New Zealand’s latest Greenhouse Gas Inventory (1990-2022) published today, shows gross emissions fell ...
The Government is bringing the earthquake-prone building review forward, with work to start immediately, and extending the deadline for remediations by four years, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “Our Government is focused on rebuilding the economy. A key part of our plan is to cut red tape that ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and his Thai counterpart, Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin, have today agreed that New Zealand and the Kingdom of Thailand will upgrade the bilateral relationship to a Strategic Partnership by 2026. “New Zealand and Thailand have a lot to offer each other. We have a strong mutual desire to build ...
RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Transport Minister Simeon Brown have today announced the Coalition Government’s intention to extend port coastal permits for a further 20 years, providing port operators with certainty to continue their operations. “The introduction of the Resource Management Act in 1991 required ports to obtain coastal ...
Today’s announcement that inflation is down to 4 per cent is encouraging news for Kiwis, but there is more work to be done - underlining the importance of the Government’s plan to get the economy back on track, acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “Inflation is now at 4 per ...
Asia Pacific Report From France to Australia, university pro-Palestine protests in the United States have now spread to several countries with students pitching on-campus camps. And students at Columbia and other US universities remain defiant as campuses have witnessed the biggest protests since the anti-Vietnam war and anti-apartheid eras in ...
Analysis by Dr Bryce Edwards, Democracy Project (https://democracyproject.nz)New Zealand Government’s Fast Track legislation. Many criticisms are being made of the Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill, including by this writer. But as with everything in politics, every story has two sides, and both deserve attention. It’s important to understand what the Government ...
Tara Ward talks to presenter Naomi Toilalo about the new TV show that turns food waste into a three course feast. Naomi Toilalo is standing in the warehouse at Good Neighbour Tauranga, helping unpack the two-and-a-half tonnes of rejected food that will arrive at the community support hub that day. ...
Scout is our latest Dog of the Month. This feature was offered as a reward during our What’s Eating Aotearoa PledgeMe campaign. Thank you to Scout’s human, Avril, for her support. Dog name: Scout (named after the little girl in To Kill a Mockingbird – she inherited the independent spirit ...
Megan Alatini takes us through her life in TV, including ‘terrible’ daytime TV, the class of Carol Hirschfeld and her most embarrassing TrueBliss moment. When she responded to a vague newspaper ad asking “do you have what it takes to be a popstar?” 25 years ago, Megan Alatini never guessed ...
A new exhibition in Wellington showcases the faces behind your local goods and services. Back in 1977, when I was a fine arts student at the University of Canterbury, I took a series of photographs of Christchurch shopkeepers. The photos were for a calendar – a project for my end ...
Toomaj and his resistance to tyranny through his songs have become an icon for the youth of Iran, so his sentence has hit the nation hard. Toomaj Salehi is not the first artist to pay the price for standing with the people. ...
My cousin Dylan and I spotted these big eels under the bridge that summer. We watched them lounging under the dark weed, facing into the flow of water, their mouths frozen open. Dylan and I couldn’t stop thinking about those eels. The night we went down to the creek, we ...
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I am bemused by Demi Levato buying into the ridiculous effort that some are making to reject gender by substituting in the place of 'he/she/his/her' the plural versions 'they, them, their' etc.
The last time this happened was the 'Royal We', when a powerful monarch like Louis XIV of France imposed their opinions on the rest of their courts by saying things like 'We are not amused.' Meaning, 'Don't anyone here dare laugh!' If you laughed before or louder than Louis XIV, you were likely to be exiled from his court, and so stricken from ranks of the nobility.
Grammatically, it is a matter of linguistic accident that English personal pronouns are gendered in the singular, but no longer in the plural. In French, for example, 'they' is still gendered in the plural: 'ils' for the boysies, and 'elles' for the girlsies. How will Demi get on if she tries to speak French?
There is a precedent in English where a singular noun like 'everybody' actually means 'all of us/them', so has a plural aspect to it.
We say 'Everybody left their umbrellas in the hall.' It is too complicated to say 'Everyone left his/her umbrella…' But that is the limit.
To extend this practice to the point where 'they' are supposed to be one single person, either or neither male or female; is a truly futile endeavour, and, to my mind, the height of folly.
If the gender-sensitive woke think this is a practicable measure, I think they are dreaming.
Normal people may not worry too much about what your gender is, but their natural speech patterns will keep singular separate from plural.
I think Demi's efforts are doomed to failure. People will not tolerate confusion of plural/singular.
Demi needs to find another gender-neutral singular pronoun.
Edit – I meant to write 'a powerful monarch like Louis XIV of France or Queen Victoria' but omitted Queen Victoria. Damn – I was not trying to present Louis XIV as of dubious gender… Try 'powerful monarchs like Louis XIV..'
But that example shows why Demi's idea it will not work. People will want to correct singular/plural errors.
Me: my doctor is great
You: what is their name?
we already use their as singular routinely, in part to address inherent sexism eg assuming doctors are make.
Their is way so simpler than some of the alternatives.
I do find a fair amount of the NB stuff performative and will be interested to see how many people still ID this way in ten or twenty years. For those for whom it’s more genuine or a tool to manage dysphoria or mental/social distress I think empathy and consideration is warranted. There are political boundaries to be debated too (still haven’t seen a good rationale for why NB males should have access to women’s spaces).
Maybe I am an old fogey, but I would instinctively avoid the 'their' thing by asking,
"Who is it?" (Or, "Who is your Doctor?")
Grammatically, 'their' is used as an easy way of avoiding the burden of having to say 'his/her'. This was so long before any thoughts of sexism, and as I said above, it usually went with singular nouns indicating a group of people, such as 'everybody.'
I agree that empathy and consideration are warranted, but I fear that only a minority of the population will take heed of that. The vast hordes will want to stay with his/ her where it is singular, and keep 'their' for the plural.
In the very long term, it is possible that a different English language will emerge, where 'he' and 'she' will have disappeared just as 'thou' and 'ye' have already died out.
But I don't think this woke thing of Demi's is going to work in the short term.
Gendered pronouns don't need to disappear. And you've figured out how to avoid gender assumptions for people in different roles.
I reckon the broad acceptance of a gender-neutral singular pronoun will come sooner than you think. For one thing, loads of Demi Lovato fans will now change their linguistic habits. Just as fans of Elliot Page updated their language. And people who aren't fans might not… but then, after a brief flurry of activity, non-fans will be discussing Demi Lovato just as much as before the announcement.
Funny how if it was a Maori place-name that was being misspelled or mispronounced according to traditional usage – there'd be all the usual suspects yelling 'racist' at anyone who dared demure.
But when it comes to butchering a fundamental feature of English – i.e the use of gendered cases – then suddenly you're all for it.
"Butchering"? Overstatement, much?
As opposed to deliberately mis-spelling an existing term as a careless or intended insult, the search for a gender-neutral pronoun in the singular is just another case of language being expanded to deal with concepts it wasn't previously equipped to address.
"Computers" are now machines on a desk, rather than people in another room hand-calculating complex math problems.
We have "robots" because "automatons" or "mechanical Turks" didn't quite denote the same thing.
We now have a multitude of terms for different atypical behaviours or neurological conditions, rather than assuming demonic possession or a uterus taking a walkabout through the body.
Heck, if you told Elizabeth1 that a "germ" was a microscopic monocellular organism, get ready for a demand to see a dictionar- oh, whoops, out of luck there, too.
Nope, you're right, anything that can't be clearly expressed in the patois of Chaucer is fucking abysmal.
Thanks McFlock, esp that last bit, ha!
The observable fact that we're not having this conversation in the 'patois of Chaucer' is sufficient evidence that languages do evolve over time. And that they might do so in an unconscious, organic fashion is entirely legitimate.
But then you get that social engineering, ideological butchering that Orwell wrote so eloquently about. Fucking abysmal indeed.
"Orwellian" now?
Newspeak was about subtracting from the lexicon's ability to communicate concepts, not adding to it. Your analogy is double-plus fail.
Newspeak was about subtracting from the lexicon's ability to communicate concepts, not adding to it.
So how does subtracting out of the language the ineradicable distinction between men and women 'add' to anything?
'Ineradicable'? Have you not been following the last few years at least?
I generally keep out of fundamentalist disputes because the true believers only want to 'educate' you about their convictions.
You’re welcome to invent as many new categories for the endless range of human sexual variation as you like – but equally it’s none of your business if a large majority of us continue to use gendered terms as we see fit for our own lives and experience.
'Ineradicable' sounds pretty fundamentalist from here. Gender is not like geology.
In humans are indisputably male and female for all practical purposes. Biological ambiguity affects a very small minority in the order of 1 in a 1000.
You're welcome to all the gender variation you like – it's not something I'm interested in at all.
Then I suggest you do not talk about a "distinction between men and women" when you really mean males and females.
Like I said, you're welcome to whatever gender definitions you like, just keep your nose out of mine please.
Demi Lovato isn't outlawing gendered pronouns. Just choosing not to be referred to by them. Because they feel gendered pronouns don't adequately describe them. The new use of an existing term adds a new concept that can be expressed by the English language.
You can continue to ask to be referred to in whatever damned way you want, it doesn't subtract anything from you.
Yeah, English has a long history of being adapted and added to by its users. English is kind of founded on that ease of adaptability, borrowing and invention.
So the search for new words in English by English users to describe themselves and the things around them is entirely legitimate. It has been going on for centuries.
I believe Te Reo also borrows to describe things not of the Maori world. But it is up to Maori to administer their language, not for non-Maori to demand to be able to change it for their own convenience. That is colonial (and, by definition, racist) thinking.
So, the comment above yours shows ignorance and intolerance on two levels: a disregard for Maori taonga and the strong-arm behaviour associated with that, and also a disregard for people wanting to use their own language to help them describe their world.
I believe the motive for the attack was the mostly the latter, as some folk get mighty triggered by being asked to accept non-binary people.
And, it is not "woke" to criticise ignorant and intolerant views. Rather, it is vitally important for social and cultural growth.
Mechanical Turk? First thought, curiosity; second that must be racist, before I even know what it means. We are becoming hyper-sensitive, not just a bit more.
google is your friend.
I don't want to look up something in every comment I read Sacha. I do prefer to spend time on Google looking at factual stuff to back up my comments, or add a view to them, or see what is going on elsewhere. If I occasionally present trivia I think that is a healthy thing now and then. Looking up mechanical Turk is not trivia I can be bothered with.
I'm off in a moment to see what person, group was behind Hitler. It seems that everything has money behind it so he probably had shadow backers letting the madman do the dirty work. There is a lot that we don't know about everything important. So MT will have to wait.
Yet you felt compelled to say that the term must be racist. Why not just say nothing when you cannot be bothered researching the basics.
I’ll take them/they/their as singular over having to use these:
[image resized]
True – I can't see these offerings being taken up broadly, either.
Earlier on, I wondered if the fairly logical 'Ms' would take on for women who wished to be neither 'Miss' nor 'Mrs.' Mzz is not a natural sound for an English monosyllable, but the word is now accepted.
'Ms' however was a new word, not an irrational subversion of already well-defined words.
General usage will eventually determine what becomes accepted, so time will tell. Personally, I suspect that the majority of speakers will fail to adopt this 'they, their/ singular thing, and that it will not last long.
Must be lovely to be privileged enough to demand others accept one's own opinion of oneself as fact.
If Demi wants to do this, up to them.
I just don’t want it imposed on me. I am a biological female. My title is Ms. And I want places in women’s sport for biological females. I also was change rooms etc for biological females.
i don’t agree that trans women are women. I respect their right to identify as a different gender. And have always been respectful towards the very small number of trans people I have come across.
Remember that pushback on "Ms", now it's pretty much a non issue, though there's probably still people who refuse to acknowledge it.
"I don't agree Trans Women are Woman" doesn't sound very respectful to me, and I'm sure no-one is imposing anything on you. Your comment made me remember Bob the Builder from Tauranga, "I don't mind the Gays, as long as they don't shove it down my throat" As a biological Male I will never understand how it feels to be Trans but damn it I will try to not make judgment's on them and will treat them in a manner I would wish to be treated. However, I too am struggling with the idea of our Trans Athlete competing in the Womans Weightlifting but I don't know enough about the science to know if they have an un-natural advantage.
Red-blooded – I'm sure no-one is imposing anything on you.
You must live in a tight little world if you don't understand the way that demands for new categories of being, are being felt by people who want to maintain humanity in its ancient and recognisable form and groups. And make allowances and tolerances for the few people who are different. Not have it regarded as a social fashion, like a re-run of 1960's anything goes behaviour.
Actually I do live in a tight little world thanks greywarshark partly because of "people who want to maintain humanity in its ancient and recognisable form and groups". With maturity I am reveling in my grumpy old man status and as one of the few I no longer see the need to tolerate a majority, incapable of non-judgement and inclusivity. How wonderful it must be for you in your security of being in the majority that can relegate those of us who aren't, to being an "anything goes, social fashion"
Freemasons, for example
Cheap slur solkta. When one turns an attempt to seriously discuss a contentious matter into a cheap joke rather than face up to being wrong it shows the limit to rationality in the matter.l
What slur? You are not even replying to me nor am i in this line of discussion. Pull your head in.
We have been mistaken for one another before.
cmon
It helps to understand that trans women are biologically male, it’s their internal sense of themselves as a woman that makes them trans.
TWAW is a slogan, and a mantra, that is routinely used to promote trans activist politics including propaganda and suppression of debate in addition to its more even handed uses. There are people being fired, banned, deplatfirmed, harassed, abused and ostracised for saying that trans women are male or men. Whether one agrees with either side, there is no doubt that pressure and imposition is great. I’ve not seen anything like it in decades of politics.
Even people offering a compromise of trans women are trans women are being told to stfu in the worst of ways (and tellingly, it’s women saying this that get treated the worst and the left is sanctioning that).
Thanks Weka, I literally have no Skin in the Game but how does it hurt a Biological Woman if a Trans Woman wants to consider themselves Women?
Or maybe I should just bow out.
I just wish people would live and let live.
That’s actually a really useful question.
by and large most liberal people across the spectrum have had no problem with trans women considering themselves women. Including feminists. The law was adjusted to support trans people via a legal fiction (that sex can be changed). But there were limits on this eg in the UK the law allows exclusion of trans women where that is warranted due to women’s rights. Think rape crisis centres.
the problem we have now is that there is a fast and largely undebated social engineering going on that creates a direct conflict between the rights of women and trans women. Should a woman’s refuge be obliged to house pre surgical transition TW (ie males who self indentify as women) with women who have been raped and beaten by males? Or should society continue to allow women to have separate spaces and for society to provide TW with refuges?
that’s one example, there are many others that illustrate a current conflict of rights between two groups.
Thanks again Weka, it is complicated indeed. In my limited knowledge I have been jumping to the defense of Trans Woman, assuming them to be Transitioned (as in Post Surgical Transition).
Having witnessed a friends Grandson, virtually from birth, identify as female and is now transitioning, I hail her bravery and respect her enough to now think of her as a woman , well young lady in this case and if she articulates to me a preference of pronouns etc I will attempt to alter my previously comfortable him/her she/he narrative. Have a great day.
Agree it is complex. And many people not involved in the debate likewise assume TW are fully transitioned. Most TW aren’t. There are social, political and legislative changes happening that don’t take that into account.
One reason why it matters is that the NZ govt wants to introduce self ID legislation this year to make it easier for trans people to socially transition. This seems laudable but there’s a huge conflict with women’s rights as self id allows any man to say he is a woman. This is already happening in many places in the world and discussion has been actively and forcefully suppressed. That alone should be raising alarm bells.
Unfortunately individual trans people like your friend are going to get caught in the cross fire. And it remains to be seen if women will get to retain their sex based rights.
This of course is part of the problem.
We are human mammals and mammals have two sexes, man and women.
I understand that a very small minority of people don’t identify with their birth sex and they like Demi, are entitled to make this public and to ask to be treated respectively for it.
to you I might hsve sounded like Bob the Builder, but I didn’t use his phrase, so no not really.
we fought hard for Ms so a women’s title didn’t indicate her marital status. Have no problem with with other or some such being added when titles asked for.
we agree on women’s sport. University of Otago released something recently that shows trans women have an unfair advantage over biological women. Of course they do. They have greater muscle mass (even if they have transitioned) they have testosterone and likely other hormones and they have advantages of height and statute.
Absolutely Anker, you're allowed to disagree with anything you like, it is not connected to respectfulness (and before anyone else goes on about PC gone mad or Wokeness etc, don't bother with the latest Right Wing Lazy Slur, that's not aimed at you Anker) but you were the one who was, on more than one instance, highlighting how respectful you are which I simply thought denying a person their right to be who they are didn't seem very respectful. Agree to disagree. As intelligent Mammals we have found ways to correct other irregularities, Heart Defects, Siamese Twins, Cleft Palete, you name it. So if a Trans person has bravely gone through all that is required to be the Gender they assimilate to I will happily refer to them as they, or he, or she, whatever they prefer. I'm sorry but the "I don't want it imposed on me" was what reminded me of the "don't shove it down my throat" angle I found that humorous, no harm meant. Some of my best friends are …. etc (pick your minority.) They're all a bit red rag to a Bull to this old fella. But yeah, very happy to agree on the need for sporting competitions to be a test between people with equal chances and as you say I'm sure muscle mass, memory and testosterone can be considered making the playing field unequal.
interestingly enough none of these trans women have said to me “I am a real woman and you have to agree with me”. If they did out of politeness, I would probably fudge it.
however the situation that is problematic is the activists, many of whom aren’t trans, stating “trans women are real women” who then require that I accept or concur with this statement, else it means I am transphobic. I don’t agree with this statement. To me it is anti science and I believe the acceptance of this statement erodes biological females identity and their sex based rights. I believe shutting down people through intimidation, which is happening in many countries is wrong, and I will stand up for my right to voice my opinion, especially when it is based on objective science.
btw I was told on this website by McFlook that I was being hostile to trans people because I described the statement trans women are real women as a mantra. But the dictionary definition of mantra is a statement or slogan that is often repeated. So how that is a hostile thing to say is beyond me. So I am not being respectful if I state my opinion based on science and I am hostile if I use the word mantra.
bring it on guys. Your attempts to paint me in this way only serve to illustrate my point that if women question trans ideology, they are cast in a negative light
Just because you wouldn't say what you say here to a trans woman face to face does not mean that you are being respectful, only phoney.
Yes I suppose fudging it could be seen as being phoney when someone asks you a question and you think the answer could cause hurt. some would say it was well intentioned kindness or good manners even.
Personally I think everyone does this at times, ie fudges the truth when you think the truth will cause hurt. But maybe you have never done that.
very aware of the complaints against me during this debate. Phoney, disrespectful and hostile! Goodness me. Luckily I don’t agree with them, so it doesn’t bother me.
Saying things anonymously in a public forum hurts people too. But easier that's true.
Unresolved fears cause the strangest behaviours.
Why can't one say either anonymously or under a pseudo or real name the truth about something important to them and society though it is unpopular; but resile from saying it to a 'trans woman' face to face? It isn't phoney, it is just respectful to the individual. Why is that not plain to you solkta? Did your mother not teach you any manners, courtesy.
It is unpleasant being harassed by people who have something against you personally or your type – just getting a stare when there is nothing unusual about your appearance, registers. But saying it somewhere else to a group or family how you feel is quite reasonable.
There were some images taken by a Muslim woman of how someone had abused her and thrown things at her, and she said it had happened a number of times before. The attacker seemed mentally unwell in behaviour and aggression. The Muslim woman did not care for this face to face behaviour at all.
Just as much as someone might not care at all for online speech that targets and hurts them.
As for little familial, social, or workplace support groups to incubate bigotry with none of the 'other' around, well, it's surprising how long they can keep the old hatreds as an undercurrent in a community. But there are too many hot mics around these days to keep it bubbling to the surface, imo.
Oh yes I see what you mean. The spiritual origins of the word. But in terms of that a mantra held special powers.
nut I don’t believe that trans women are real women has no meaning nor do I think it has special spiritual powers. I think the phrase has meaning for those who agree with it. I just don’t agree with it.
not being a very spiritual person, when I think of the word mantra, I think of it used in psychology to help people build self esteem eg “I am a good person”. I think I mentioned that before. But to be honest, I can’t see the spiritual or the psychological meaning being hostile. Just my view
[typo fixed in e-mail address]
That is an affirmation not a mantra.
"I am a good person" has an explicit and direct meaning.
Mantra are much more about the vibe of the collected words and sounds.
"Here we go, here we go, here we go" is an expression of collective expectation that gets its power from a crowd of people repeating it, not from the meaning of the words (half the time the "we" aren't going anywhere).
"totality of the universe/jewel/sacred lotus/enlightenment" – well, one could meditate upon that for ages, and the chant helps, but it's a bit of a semantic word salad with a literal translation.
"Trans women are women" is a clear statement with an explicit meaning one can accept or reject. One person can state it once, or a crowd can chant it repeatedly. It's not a "mantra".
Are you saying McFlook that I am targeting trans people?
weird because someone who identifies as queer on this site told me they had the first discussion on this site (with me) that didn’t go into an argument
Dunno about deliberately targeting. But I said "targets and hurts".
Are you saying McFlook that I am targeting trans people?
weird because someone who identifies as queer on this site told me they had the first discussion on this site (with me) that didn’t go into an argument
You know? That you can't even write down someone's user name correctly, to me, sort of draws a big fat disqualifying line through any comment you make.
As a site meant for robust debate, it's far too puerile to be taken seriously, so maybe do better?
Once could just be a typo.
Or auto-correct …
In a different language.
Actually, I type-write in more than one language and when I don’t change the language setting/preference, it can be a real pain. Such is life for someone who’s (almost) bi-lingual. Some devices seem to remember everything I’ve ever typed in 🙁
As someone who sees behind the TS curtain, so to speak, I’d say that Anker does somewhat struggle with the technology and commenting here. I believe they’re trying hard so please don’t be too harsh in your assumptions and judgements.
I've consciously done it in the past, and though it's a cheap and easy laugh, I made a decision to stop it – Let your arguments and words do the put downs, and leave the brain dead comedy to morning radio hosts, who seem to excel at it.
lol @ dimcognitwito
I’m an open book 😉
Ha, I always imagined you as a readers digest in a dentist's waiting room.
Talking of open books, I haven't seen much of Thornton recently. What's up – Youtube run out of confirmation bias videos?
Love the music too.
'I Am Joe's Spleen'
As someone who dabbles in songwriting I can appreciate a tooth pulling soundtrack lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoWom0CCRKM
More like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xBJERznOgA
Oooh what goes on behind the curtain? Sounds a bit salacious to me. 😉
You’d be most disappointed! Then again, a dirty mind is a joy forever
The sacrificial offerings do sound a bit interesting.
It’s informed consent so pretty legal.
Thanks Incognito. That meant a lot. Because it is true and the mis/spelling of McFlock name was an error. My apologies McFlock. I do struggle with technology, spelling and eyesight and I am often aware that I make typos on the Standard.
I don’t really go in for cheap shots like that and I do my best to play the ball not the person.
my experience on this thread is that is not what others are doing with me.
accused of disrespect, being like bob the builder, being a phoney, hostility, having a crap dictionary and IMO people getting very pedantic about the word mantra to try and back up the claim that I was being hostile.
I am here to assert my opinion and that’s what I did. I realised that some might not like my opinion, or want to read my opinion, because I made a typo with someone’s name.
I never thought too much about trans issues although saw a very moving and compassionate doco in the 80s about a trans woman. So I understood their suffering.
what I am against is debate being shut down, seeing other women, often elderly people who fought hard for homosexual and women’s rights, being excluded, having their views shut down, being trespassed from Pride, having the police called on them, mainly because they won’t repeat the statement trans women are real women. They merely want to debate the issue and preserve our sex based rights.
I do not accept the gender ideology trumps biological sex.
But again thanks incognito. I did appreciate you saying that about me and technology even though it exposes some inadequacy in me!
I don't always agree with you as you know Anker, but I do agree with you that gender ideology does not trump biological sex. That does not mean I support the abuse and violence meted out to trans persons. It should be treated with the same seriousness as abuse and violence towards anyone else, but I fear it often isn't. It's the… well you asked for it mentality at play.
And don't give up. In the end, honesty always wins the day.
For the record Anker, no-one accused you of being like Bob the Builder, I noted your comment "I just don’t want it imposed on me" reminded me of a comment he had made. (He, by the way, as you stated you didn't know who he was, was a National Party Member of Parliament from Tauranga yonks ago)
You came in as the provocateur with the statement "i don’t agree that trans women are women" so when some of us disagree with your statement, it's a bit rich to be pulling the Victim Card.
We are ALL entitled to our opinions.
If you weren’t saying Anker’s view is like Bob the Builder’s what was the point of the comparison?
My point was simply stating her comment reminded me of someone else's comment. It's no more complicated than that. Please try not to read between my lines or put words on my mouth. I am quite capable of screwing up my own comments without others making stuff up.
I really don't understand how you can't see that someone can't be part of the LGBT community while throwing one of those groups under the proverbial bus.
So it’s like a club with membership rules?
The community that’s telling lesbians that sexual preference is bigotry and they should learn how to like dick so they can date trans women.
Everyone throwing everyone under the bus at this point.
Seems a fair stretch from someone saying that the term 'women' includes more people to insisting you have to be intimate with any of them. Some very confused thinking going on.
Indeed, but this is what is happening. Lesbian dating apps include trans women and lesbians are called bigots or banned if they say they want to date only women. This has been building fir a long time. It will get more well known now that the issue is starting to affect gay men.
Yes I think it is best those women leave LBGTQ.
can you explain what you mean by throwing one of those groups under the bus?
Again it is the shut down of the debate I object to, and the brutality with which some of those women who are progressive by nature have been treated. They were there first ie many of them are elderly and have fought hard for women’s and homosexual rights. Not that that is good reason for other groups to go.
but it seems if you don’t accept trans ideology, then you are silenced and excluded in vicious and sometimes petty and childish ways.
I am not a member of LBGT , but my advice would be to these women would be get out and form your own organisation.
[typo fixed in e-mail address]
Mod note for you 🙂
So it’s like a club with membership rules?
When it comes to belonging to specific groups or using designated LGBTQ spaces yes. When i was at uni i spent time hanging out in the LGBTQ space provided by the student union (i'm bi). This space was there to provide a safe place for all LGBTQ individuals and attitudes presented by Anker would not have been tolerated there.
Is it ok for women to have their own spaces with the rules being biologically female?
The community that’s telling lesbians that sexual preference is bigotry
I don't know of any LGBTQ groups making statements like that. I don't personally know any individuals who have said or would likely say or think that.
So your ok with lesbian only spaces that exclude trans women?
Those would be a L space not a LGBTQ space. Anker was complaining about Pride.
Sure, but that doesn’t answer my question and its an important one.
if lesbians who want spaces that are female only, should they be allowed them? Should such a group be allowed at Pride if they say nothing at all about gender id?
If lesbian feminists (with what used to be called a 'radical' position about interacting with men) want spaces that exclude transpeople, it would be good if they own that clearly with their words.
Call it 'FemaleSpace' rather than WomenSpace' perhaps.
Just don't expect that associating aggression with penises will do anything about lesbian intimate partner violence, for example.
Lesbians don’t want to exclude trans people they want spaces separate from *males. Do you see the difference?
women and lesbians are being prevented from using women centred language. Because some people don’t want women having their own spaces. And ‘lesbian’ IS a word that is already women centred.
not sure what your penis/aggression comment is about. Obviously a huge part of lesbian culture has nothing whatsoever to do with penises, and I doubt politicised lesbians need to have explained to them the various issues around domestic violence.
honestly Sacha you seem largely unaware of what is going on in this culture war.
You might want to look at how you got from “lesbians want female space separate from trans women” to “lesbians want to exclude trans people”.
@weka
Excluding trans woman from a lesbian group is making a statement about gender id, obviously.
solkta, you having avoiding clarifying despite multiple opportunities, I will conclude that you support spaces and boundaries for queer people but deny them for lesbians and other women who aren’t queer. Or something.
A functioning command of the English language.
In English trans women is not equivalent to trans people.
I hardly ever see lesbians saying they want to exclude trans people.
@Anker
They were there first ie many of them are elderly and have fought hard for women’s and homosexual rights.
No they weren't "here first". Trans activists have been around as long as any.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmen_Rupe
@Weka @2.54pm but under my post @12.31pm
You have been trying really hard to put words in my mouth and i really don't appreciate it. You have been behaving like RL.
All i have been saying is that LGBTQ spaces are for all LGBTQ people. If L people want to have a separate space then that space can't be within LGBTQ space, ie Pride.
Also, inserting your posts out of time sequence is making all this hard to follow. As these aren't moderation notes this seems unfair.
You’re welcome!
As an aside, but related to this, there appears to be a cynical undercurrent flowing through TS. Although cynicism/scepticism has its place, especially when being vigilant and holding people in power (e.g. politicians) to account, it can and does spill over into the debate here on TS between ‘ordinary’ people who generally mean well and comment here in good faith. In my opinion, this has an overall negative impact on the discourse here.
Your dictionary is a joke. Maybe try one with a few more definitions of the word. With particular attention paid to the meaning of the sounds "often repeated".
Me Flook….. dictionary definition of mantra…..
cambridge dictionary “a word or phrase often repeated and that expresses something that people believe”
you will need to quote me what your dictionary says.
I have never heard it used without a positive association.
but my list is growing
I am
hostile
disrespectful
a phoney
like Bob the builder (whoever he is)
and my dictionary is a joke!
Also in Cambridge, funnily enough. Top entry. Intrigued your copy only has one definition under the word.
Calling an earnest belief a "mantra" suggests no meaning behind the sound, the only benefit is from repetition.
Often licked, never beaten.
I guess we'll soon be speaking of pluralists and singularities..
Physicists already have the second one via their social engineering in the mid20C. Apparently the rules mean that it can't be used for anything else.
What rules when feelings reign?
I am sure somebody else must have already coined the phrase: ‘Anarchy rules’, or ‘Anarchy reigns’…
A stake in the hearts of etymologists.
Bloody bourgeois lot!
Snob mob.
And a pin for the entomologists.
We need more of those now we’re all socialists with a hive mind following orders from the Queen.
sweet