Daily review 21/05/2021

Written By: - Date published: 5:30 pm, May 21st, 2021 - 120 comments
Categories: Daily review - Tags:

Daily review is also your post.

This provides Standardistas the opportunity to review events of the day.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Don’t forget to be kind to each other …

120 comments on “Daily review 21/05/2021 ”

  1. In Vino 1

    I am bemused by Demi Levato buying into the ridiculous effort that some are making to reject gender by substituting in the place of 'he/she/his/her' the plural versions 'they, them, their' etc.

    The last time this happened was the 'Royal We', when a powerful monarch like Louis XIV of France imposed their opinions on the rest of their courts by saying things like 'We are not amused.' Meaning, 'Don't anyone here dare laugh!' If you laughed before or louder than Louis XIV, you were likely to be exiled from his court, and so stricken from ranks of the nobility.

    Grammatically, it is a matter of linguistic accident that English personal pronouns are gendered in the singular, but no longer in the plural. In French, for example, 'they' is still gendered in the plural: 'ils' for the boysies, and 'elles' for the girlsies. How will Demi get on if she tries to speak French?

    There is a precedent in English where a singular noun like 'everybody' actually means 'all of us/them', so has a plural aspect to it.

    We say 'Everybody left their umbrellas in the hall.' It is too complicated to say 'Everyone left his/her umbrella…' But that is the limit.

    To extend this practice to the point where 'they' are supposed to be one single person, either or neither male or female; is a truly futile endeavour, and, to my mind, the height of folly.

    If the gender-sensitive woke think this is a practicable measure, I think they are dreaming.

    Normal people may not worry too much about what your gender is, but their natural speech patterns will keep singular separate from plural.

    I think Demi's efforts are doomed to failure. People will not tolerate confusion of plural/singular.

    Demi needs to find another gender-neutral singular pronoun.

    • In Vino 1.1

      Edit – I meant to write 'a powerful monarch like Louis XIV of France or Queen Victoria' but omitted Queen Victoria. Damn – I was not trying to present Louis XIV as of dubious gender… Try 'powerful monarchs like Louis XIV..'

      But that example shows why Demi's idea it will not work. People will want to correct singular/plural errors.

    • weka 1.2

      Me: my doctor is great

      You: what is their name?

      we already use their as singular routinely, in part to address inherent sexism eg assuming doctors are make.

      Their is way so simpler than some of the alternatives.

      I do find a fair amount of the NB stuff performative and will be interested to see how many people still ID this way in ten or twenty years. For those for whom it’s more genuine or a tool to manage dysphoria or mental/social distress I think empathy and consideration is warranted. There are political boundaries to be debated too (still haven’t seen a good rationale for why NB males should have access to women’s spaces).

      • In Vino 1.2.1

        Maybe I am an old fogey, but I would instinctively avoid the 'their' thing by asking,

        "Who is it?" (Or, "Who is your Doctor?")

        Grammatically, 'their' is used as an easy way of avoiding the burden of having to say 'his/her'. This was so long before any thoughts of sexism, and as I said above, it usually went with singular nouns indicating a group of people, such as 'everybody.'

        I agree that empathy and consideration are warranted, but I fear that only a minority of the population will take heed of that. The vast hordes will want to stay with his/ her where it is singular, and keep 'their' for the plural.

        In the very long term, it is possible that a different English language will emerge, where 'he' and 'she' will have disappeared just as 'thou' and 'ye' have already died out.

        But I don't think this woke thing of Demi's is going to work in the short term.

        • McFlock 1.2.1.1

          Gendered pronouns don't need to disappear. And you've figured out how to avoid gender assumptions for people in different roles.

          I reckon the broad acceptance of a gender-neutral singular pronoun will come sooner than you think. For one thing, loads of Demi Lovato fans will now change their linguistic habits. Just as fans of Elliot Page updated their language. And people who aren't fans might not… but then, after a brief flurry of activity, non-fans will be discussing Demi Lovato just as much as before the announcement.

          • RedLogix 1.2.1.1.1

            Funny how if it was a Maori place-name that was being misspelled or mispronounced according to traditional usage – there'd be all the usual suspects yelling 'racist' at anyone who dared demure.

            But when it comes to butchering a fundamental feature of English – i.e the use of gendered cases – then suddenly you're all for it.

            • McFlock 1.2.1.1.1.1

              "Butchering"? Overstatement, much?

              As opposed to deliberately mis-spelling an existing term as a careless or intended insult, the search for a gender-neutral pronoun in the singular is just another case of language being expanded to deal with concepts it wasn't previously equipped to address.

              "Computers" are now machines on a desk, rather than people in another room hand-calculating complex math problems.

              We have "robots" because "automatons" or "mechanical Turks" didn't quite denote the same thing.

              We now have a multitude of terms for different atypical behaviours or neurological conditions, rather than assuming demonic possession or a uterus taking a walkabout through the body.

              Heck, if you told Elizabeth1 that a "germ" was a microscopic monocellular organism, get ready for a demand to see a dictionar- oh, whoops, out of luck there, too.

              Nope, you're right, anything that can't be clearly expressed in the patois of Chaucer is fucking abysmal.

              • I Feel Love

                Thanks McFlock, esp that last bit, ha!

              • RedLogix

                The observable fact that we're not having this conversation in the 'patois of Chaucer' is sufficient evidence that languages do evolve over time. And that they might do so in an unconscious, organic fashion is entirely legitimate.

                But then you get that social engineering, ideological butchering that Orwell wrote so eloquently about. Fucking abysmal indeed.

                • McFlock

                  "Orwellian" now?

                  Newspeak was about subtracting from the lexicon's ability to communicate concepts, not adding to it. Your analogy is double-plus fail.

                  • RedLogix

                    Newspeak was about subtracting from the lexicon's ability to communicate concepts, not adding to it.

                    So how does subtracting out of the language the ineradicable distinction between men and women 'add' to anything?

                    • Sacha

                      'Ineradicable'? Have you not been following the last few years at least?

                    • RedLogix

                      I generally keep out of fundamentalist disputes because the true believers only want to 'educate' you about their convictions.

                      You’re welcome to invent as many new categories for the endless range of human sexual variation as you like – but equally it’s none of your business if a large majority of us continue to use gendered terms as we see fit for our own lives and experience.

                    • Sacha

                      'Ineradicable' sounds pretty fundamentalist from here. Gender is not like geology.

                    • RedLogix

                      In humans are indisputably male and female for all practical purposes. Biological ambiguity affects a very small minority in the order of 1 in a 1000.

                      You're welcome to all the gender variation you like – it's not something I'm interested in at all.

                    • Sacha

                      Then I suggest you do not talk about a "distinction between men and women" when you really mean males and females.

                    • RedLogix

                      Like I said, you're welcome to whatever gender definitions you like, just keep your nose out of mine please.

                    • Muttonbird

                      Fundamentalism, type of conservative religious movement characterized by the advocacy of strict conformity to sacred texts.

                    • McFlock

                      So how does subtracting out of the language the ineradicable distinction between men and women 'add' to anything?

                      Demi Lovato isn't outlawing gendered pronouns. Just choosing not to be referred to by them. Because they feel gendered pronouns don't adequately describe them. The new use of an existing term adds a new concept that can be expressed by the English language.

                      You can continue to ask to be referred to in whatever damned way you want, it doesn't subtract anything from you.

              • Muttonbird

                Yeah, English has a long history of being adapted and added to by its users. English is kind of founded on that ease of adaptability, borrowing and invention.

                So the search for new words in English by English users to describe themselves and the things around them is entirely legitimate. It has been going on for centuries.

                I believe Te Reo also borrows to describe things not of the Maori world. But it is up to Maori to administer their language, not for non-Maori to demand to be able to change it for their own convenience. That is colonial (and, by definition, racist) thinking.

                So, the comment above yours shows ignorance and intolerance on two levels: a disregard for Maori taonga and the strong-arm behaviour associated with that, and also a disregard for people wanting to use their own language to help them describe their world.

                I believe the motive for the attack was the mostly the latter, as some folk get mighty triggered by being asked to accept non-binary people.

                And, it is not "woke" to criticise ignorant and intolerant views. Rather, it is vitally important for social and cultural growth.

              • greywarshark

                Mechanical Turk? First thought, curiosity; second that must be racist, before I even know what it means. We are becoming hyper-sensitive, not just a bit more.

                • Sacha

                  google is your friend.

                  • greywarshark

                    I don't want to look up something in every comment I read Sacha. I do prefer to spend time on Google looking at factual stuff to back up my comments, or add a view to them, or see what is going on elsewhere. If I occasionally present trivia I think that is a healthy thing now and then. Looking up mechanical Turk is not trivia I can be bothered with.

                    I'm off in a moment to see what person, group was behind Hitler. It seems that everything has money behind it so he probably had shadow backers letting the madman do the dirty work. There is a lot that we don't know about everything important. So MT will have to wait.

                    • Sacha

                      Yet you felt compelled to say that the term must be racist. Why not just say nothing when you cannot be bothered researching the basics.

        • weka 1.2.1.2

          I’ll take them/they/their as singular over having to use these:

          [image resized]

          • In Vino 1.2.1.2.1

            True – I can't see these offerings being taken up broadly, either.

            Earlier on, I wondered if the fairly logical 'Ms' would take on for women who wished to be neither 'Miss' nor 'Mrs.' Mzz is not a natural sound for an English monosyllable, but the word is now accepted.

            'Ms' however was a new word, not an irrational subversion of already well-defined words.

            General usage will eventually determine what becomes accepted, so time will tell. Personally, I suspect that the majority of speakers will fail to adopt this 'they, their/ singular thing, and that it will not last long.

    • Gabby 1.3

      Must be lovely to be privileged enough to demand others accept one's own opinion of oneself as fact.

  2. Anker 2

    If Demi wants to do this, up to them.

    I just don’t want it imposed on me. I am a biological female. My title is Ms. And I want places in women’s sport for biological females. I also was change rooms etc for biological females.

    i don’t agree that trans women are women. I respect their right to identify as a different gender. And have always been respectful towards the very small number of trans people I have come across.

    • I Feel Love 2.1

      Remember that pushback on "Ms", now it's pretty much a non issue, though there's probably still people who refuse to acknowledge it.

    • Red Blooded One 2.2

      "I don't agree Trans Women are Woman" doesn't sound very respectful to me, and I'm sure no-one is imposing anything on you. Your comment made me remember Bob the Builder from Tauranga, "I don't mind the Gays, as long as they don't shove it down my throat" As a biological Male I will never understand how it feels to be Trans but damn it I will try to not make judgment's on them and will treat them in a manner I would wish to be treated. However, I too am struggling with the idea of our Trans Athlete competing in the Womans Weightlifting but I don't know enough about the science to know if they have an un-natural advantage.

      • greywarshark 2.2.1

        Red-blooded – I'm sure no-one is imposing anything on you.

        You must live in a tight little world if you don't understand the way that demands for new categories of being, are being felt by people who want to maintain humanity in its ancient and recognisable form and groups. And make allowances and tolerances for the few people who are different. Not have it regarded as a social fashion, like a re-run of 1960's anything goes behaviour.

        • Red Blooded One 2.2.1.1

          Actually I do live in a tight little world thanks greywarshark partly because of "people who want to maintain humanity in its ancient and recognisable form and groups". With maturity I am reveling in my grumpy old man status and as one of the few I no longer see the need to tolerate a majority, incapable of non-judgement and inclusivity. How wonderful it must be for you in your security of being in the majority that can relegate those of us who aren't, to being an "anything goes, social fashion"

        • Sacha 2.2.1.2

          people who want to maintain humanity in its ancient and recognisable form and groups

          Freemasons, for example

          • greywarshark 2.2.1.2.1

            Cheap slur solkta. When one turns an attempt to seriously discuss a contentious matter into a cheap joke rather than face up to being wrong it shows the limit to rationality in the matter.l

          • Sacha 2.2.1.2.2

            cmon

      • weka 2.2.2

        It helps to understand that trans women are biologically male, it’s their internal sense of themselves as a woman that makes them trans.

        TWAW is a slogan, and a mantra, that is routinely used to promote trans activist politics including propaganda and suppression of debate in addition to its more even handed uses. There are people being fired, banned, deplatfirmed, harassed, abused and ostracised for saying that trans women are male or men. Whether one agrees with either side, there is no doubt that pressure and imposition is great. I’ve not seen anything like it in decades of politics.

        Even people offering a compromise of trans women are trans women are being told to stfu in the worst of ways (and tellingly, it’s women saying this that get treated the worst and the left is sanctioning that).

        • Red Blooded One 2.2.2.1

          Thanks Weka, I literally have no Skin in the Game but how does it hurt a Biological Woman if a Trans Woman wants to consider themselves Women?

          Or maybe I should just bow out.

          I just wish people would live and let live.

          • weka 2.2.2.1.1

            That’s actually a really useful question.

            by and large most liberal people across the spectrum have had no problem with trans women considering themselves women. Including feminists. The law was adjusted to support trans people via a legal fiction (that sex can be changed). But there were limits on this eg in the UK the law allows exclusion of trans women where that is warranted due to women’s rights. Think rape crisis centres.

            the problem we have now is that there is a fast and largely undebated social engineering going on that creates a direct conflict between the rights of women and trans women. Should a woman’s refuge be obliged to house pre surgical transition TW (ie males who self indentify as women) with women who have been raped and beaten by males? Or should society continue to allow women to have separate spaces and for society to provide TW with refuges?

            that’s one example, there are many others that illustrate a current conflict of rights between two groups.

            • Red Blooded One 2.2.2.1.1.1

              Thanks again Weka, it is complicated indeed. In my limited knowledge I have been jumping to the defense of Trans Woman, assuming them to be Transitioned (as in Post Surgical Transition).

              Having witnessed a friends Grandson, virtually from birth, identify as female and is now transitioning, I hail her bravery and respect her enough to now think of her as a woman , well young lady in this case and if she articulates to me a preference of pronouns etc I will attempt to alter my previously comfortable him/her she/he narrative. Have a great day.

              • weka

                Agree it is complex. And many people not involved in the debate likewise assume TW are fully transitioned. Most TW aren’t. There are social, political and legislative changes happening that don’t take that into account.

                One reason why it matters is that the NZ govt wants to introduce self ID legislation this year to make it easier for trans people to socially transition. This seems laudable but there’s a huge conflict with women’s rights as self id allows any man to say he is a woman. This is already happening in many places in the world and discussion has been actively and forcefully suppressed. That alone should be raising alarm bells.

                Unfortunately individual trans people like your friend are going to get caught in the cross fire. And it remains to be seen if women will get to retain their sex based rights.

  3. Anker 3
    • Are we not allowed to say we don’t agree with something anymore? Otherwise we are not being respectful?
    • This of course is part of the problem.

    We are human mammals and mammals have two sexes, man and women.

    I understand that a very small minority of people don’t identify with their birth sex and they like Demi, are entitled to make this public and to ask to be treated respectively for it.

    to you I might hsve sounded like Bob the Builder, but I didn’t use his phrase, so no not really.

    we fought hard for Ms so a women’s title didn’t indicate her marital status. Have no problem with with other or some such being added when titles asked for.

    we agree on women’s sport. University of Otago released something recently that shows trans women have an unfair advantage over biological women. Of course they do. They have greater muscle mass (even if they have transitioned) they have testosterone and likely other hormones and they have advantages of height and statute.

    • Red Blooded One 3.1

      Absolutely Anker, you're allowed to disagree with anything you like, it is not connected to respectfulness (and before anyone else goes on about PC gone mad or Wokeness etc, don't bother with the latest Right Wing Lazy Slur, that's not aimed at you Anker) but you were the one who was, on more than one instance, highlighting how respectful you are which I simply thought denying a person their right to be who they are didn't seem very respectful. Agree to disagree. As intelligent Mammals we have found ways to correct other irregularities, Heart Defects, Siamese Twins, Cleft Palete, you name it. So if a Trans person has bravely gone through all that is required to be the Gender they assimilate to I will happily refer to them as they, or he, or she, whatever they prefer. I'm sorry but the "I don't want it imposed on me" was what reminded me of the "don't shove it down my throat" angle I found that humorous, no harm meant. Some of my best friends are …. etc (pick your minority.) They're all a bit red rag to a Bull to this old fella. But yeah, very happy to agree on the need for sporting competitions to be a test between people with equal chances and as you say I'm sure muscle mass, memory and testosterone can be considered making the playing field unequal.

  4. Anker 4
    • Yes red blooded one, I have mentioned a number of times I am respectful to trans people who I meet. Probably I don’t need to repeat this again.

    interestingly enough none of these trans women have said to me “I am a real woman and you have to agree with me”. If they did out of politeness, I would probably fudge it.

    however the situation that is problematic is the activists, many of whom aren’t trans, stating “trans women are real women” who then require that I accept or concur with this statement, else it means I am transphobic. I don’t agree with this statement. To me it is anti science and I believe the acceptance of this statement erodes biological females identity and their sex based rights. I believe shutting down people through intimidation, which is happening in many countries is wrong, and I will stand up for my right to voice my opinion, especially when it is based on objective science.

    btw I was told on this website by McFlook that I was being hostile to trans people because I described the statement trans women are real women as a mantra. But the dictionary definition of mantra is a statement or slogan that is often repeated. So how that is a hostile thing to say is beyond me. So I am not being respectful if I state my opinion based on science and I am hostile if I use the word mantra.

    bring it on guys. Your attempts to paint me in this way only serve to illustrate my point that if women question trans ideology, they are cast in a negative light

    • solkta 4.1

      Just because you wouldn't say what you say here to a trans woman face to face does not mean that you are being respectful, only phoney.

      • Anker 4.1.1

        Yes I suppose fudging it could be seen as being phoney when someone asks you a question and you think the answer could cause hurt. some would say it was well intentioned kindness or good manners even.
        Personally I think everyone does this at times, ie fudges the truth when you think the truth will cause hurt. But maybe you have never done that.

        very aware of the complaints against me during this debate. Phoney, disrespectful and hostile! Goodness me. Luckily I don’t agree with them, so it doesn’t bother me.

        • solkta 4.1.1.1

          Saying things anonymously in a public forum hurts people too. But easier that's true.

          • Anker 4.1.1.1.1
            • Yes people may read things on on-line forums that they find hurtful. Perhaps you would prefer me not to express my opinion?
          • Sacha 4.1.1.1.2

            Unresolved fears cause the strangest behaviours.

      • greywarshark 4.1.2

        Why can't one say either anonymously or under a pseudo or real name the truth about something important to them and society though it is unpopular; but resile from saying it to a 'trans woman' face to face? It isn't phoney, it is just respectful to the individual. Why is that not plain to you solkta? Did your mother not teach you any manners, courtesy.

        It is unpleasant being harassed by people who have something against you personally or your type – just getting a stare when there is nothing unusual about your appearance, registers. But saying it somewhere else to a group or family how you feel is quite reasonable.

        There were some images taken by a Muslim woman of how someone had abused her and thrown things at her, and she said it had happened a number of times before. The attacker seemed mentally unwell in behaviour and aggression. The Muslim woman did not care for this face to face behaviour at all.

        • McFlock 4.1.2.1

          Just as much as someone might not care at all for online speech that targets and hurts them.

          As for little familial, social, or workplace support groups to incubate bigotry with none of the 'other' around, well, it's surprising how long they can keep the old hatreds as an undercurrent in a community. But there are too many hot mics around these days to keep it bubbling to the surface, imo.

          • Anker 4.1.2.1.1

            Oh yes I see what you mean. The spiritual origins of the word. But in terms of that a mantra held special powers.

            nut I don’t believe that trans women are real women has no meaning nor do I think it has special spiritual powers. I think the phrase has meaning for those who agree with it. I just don’t agree with it.

            not being a very spiritual person, when I think of the word mantra, I think of it used in psychology to help people build self esteem eg “I am a good person”. I think I mentioned that before. But to be honest, I can’t see the spiritual or the psychological meaning being hostile. Just my view

            [typo fixed in e-mail address]

            • solkta 4.1.2.1.1.1

              That is an affirmation not a mantra.

            • McFlock 4.1.2.1.1.2

              "I am a good person" has an explicit and direct meaning.

              Mantra are much more about the vibe of the collected words and sounds.

              "Here we go, here we go, here we go" is an expression of collective expectation that gets its power from a crowd of people repeating it, not from the meaning of the words (half the time the "we" aren't going anywhere).

              "totality of the universe/jewel/sacred lotus/enlightenment" – well, one could meditate upon that for ages, and the chant helps, but it's a bit of a semantic word salad with a literal translation.

              "Trans women are women" is a clear statement with an explicit meaning one can accept or reject. One person can state it once, or a crowd can chant it repeatedly. It's not a "mantra".

          • Anker 4.1.2.1.2

            Are you saying McFlook that I am targeting trans people?

            weird because someone who identifies as queer on this site told me they had the first discussion on this site (with me) that didn’t go into an argument

            • McFlock 4.1.2.1.2.1

              Dunno about deliberately targeting. But I said "targets and hurts".

          • Anker 4.1.2.1.3

            Are you saying McFlook that I am targeting trans people?

            weird because someone who identifies as queer on this site told me they had the first discussion on this site (with me) that didn’t go into an argument

            • The Al1en 4.1.2.1.3.1

              You know? That you can't even write down someone's user name correctly, to me, sort of draws a big fat disqualifying line through any comment you make.

              As a site meant for robust debate, it's far too puerile to be taken seriously, so maybe do better?

              • Sacha

                Once could just be a typo.

                • Incognito

                  Or auto-correct …

                  • Sacha

                    In a different language.

                    • Incognito

                      Actually, I type-write in more than one language and when I don’t change the language setting/preference, it can be a real pain. Such is life for someone who’s (almost) bi-lingual. Some devices seem to remember everything I’ve ever typed in 🙁

              • Incognito

                As someone who sees behind the TS curtain, so to speak, I’d say that Anker does somewhat struggle with the technology and commenting here. I believe they’re trying hard so please don’t be too harsh in your assumptions and judgements.

                • The Al1en

                  I've consciously done it in the past, and though it's a cheap and easy laugh, I made a decision to stop it – Let your arguments and words do the put downs, and leave the brain dead comedy to morning radio hosts, who seem to excel at it.

                • Anne

                  Oooh what goes on behind the curtain? Sounds a bit salacious to me. 😉

                • Anker

                  Thanks Incognito. That meant a lot. Because it is true and the mis/spelling of McFlock name was an error. My apologies McFlock. I do struggle with technology, spelling and eyesight and I am often aware that I make typos on the Standard.

                  I don’t really go in for cheap shots like that and I do my best to play the ball not the person.

                  my experience on this thread is that is not what others are doing with me.

                  accused of disrespect, being like bob the builder, being a phoney, hostility, having a crap dictionary and IMO people getting very pedantic about the word mantra to try and back up the claim that I was being hostile.

                  I am here to assert my opinion and that’s what I did. I realised that some might not like my opinion, or want to read my opinion, because I made a typo with someone’s name.

                  I never thought too much about trans issues although saw a very moving and compassionate doco in the 80s about a trans woman. So I understood their suffering.
                  what I am against is debate being shut down, seeing other women, often elderly people who fought hard for homosexual and women’s rights, being excluded, having their views shut down, being trespassed from Pride, having the police called on them, mainly because they won’t repeat the statement trans women are real women. They merely want to debate the issue and preserve our sex based rights.

                  I do not accept the gender ideology trumps biological sex.

                  But again thanks incognito. I did appreciate you saying that about me and technology even though it exposes some inadequacy in me!

                  • Anne

                    I don't always agree with you as you know Anker, but I do agree with you that gender ideology does not trump biological sex. That does not mean I support the abuse and violence meted out to trans persons. It should be treated with the same seriousness as abuse and violence towards anyone else, but I fear it often isn't. It's the… well you asked for it mentality at play.

                    And don't give up. In the end, honesty always wins the day.

                  • Red Blooded One

                    For the record Anker, no-one accused you of being like Bob the Builder, I noted your comment "I just don’t want it imposed on me" reminded me of a comment he had made. (He, by the way, as you stated you didn't know who he was, was a National Party Member of Parliament from Tauranga yonks ago)

                    You came in as the provocateur with the statement "i don’t agree that trans women are women" so when some of us disagree with your statement, it's a bit rich to be pulling the Victim Card.

                    We are ALL entitled to our opinions.

                    • weka

                      If you weren’t saying Anker’s view is like Bob the Builder’s what was the point of the comparison?

                    • Red Blooded One []

                      My point was simply stating her comment reminded me of someone else's comment. It's no more complicated than that. Please try not to read between my lines or put words on my mouth. I am quite capable of screwing up my own comments without others making stuff up.

                  • solkta

                    I really don't understand how you can't see that someone can't be part of the LGBT community while throwing one of those groups under the proverbial bus.

                    • weka

                      So it’s like a club with membership rules?

                    • weka

                      The community that’s telling lesbians that sexual preference is bigotry and they should learn how to like dick so they can date trans women.

                      Everyone throwing everyone under the bus at this point.

                    • Sacha

                      telling lesbians that sexual preference is bigotry and they should learn how to like dick so they can date trans women.

                      Seems a fair stretch from someone saying that the term 'women' includes more people to insisting you have to be intimate with any of them. Some very confused thinking going on.

                    • weka []

                      Indeed, but this is what is happening. Lesbian dating apps include trans women and lesbians are called bigots or banned if they say they want to date only women. This has been building fir a long time. It will get more well known now that the issue is starting to affect gay men.

                    • Anker []

                      Yes I think it is best those women leave LBGTQ.

                      can you explain what you mean by throwing one of those groups under the bus?

                      Again it is the shut down of the debate I object to, and the brutality with which some of those women who are progressive by nature have been treated. They were there first ie many of them are elderly and have fought hard for women’s and homosexual rights. Not that that is good reason for other groups to go.

                      but it seems if you don’t accept trans ideology, then you are silenced and excluded in vicious and sometimes petty and childish ways.

                      I am not a member of LBGT , but my advice would be to these women would be get out and form your own organisation.

                      [typo fixed in e-mail address]

                    • Incognito []

                      Mod note for you 🙂

                    • solkta

                      So it’s like a club with membership rules?

                      When it comes to belonging to specific groups or using designated LGBTQ spaces yes. When i was at uni i spent time hanging out in the LGBTQ space provided by the student union (i'm bi). This space was there to provide a safe place for all LGBTQ individuals and attitudes presented by Anker would not have been tolerated there.

                    • weka []

                      Is it ok for women to have their own spaces with the rules being biologically female?

                    • solkta

                      The community that’s telling lesbians that sexual preference is bigotry

                      I don't know of any LGBTQ groups making statements like that. I don't personally know any individuals who have said or would likely say or think that.

                    • weka []

                      So your ok with lesbian only spaces that exclude trans women?

                    • solkta

                      Those would be a L space not a LGBTQ space. Anker was complaining about Pride.

                    • weka []

                      Sure, but that doesn’t answer my question and its an important one.

                      if lesbians who want spaces that are female only, should they be allowed them? Should such a group be allowed at Pride if they say nothing at all about gender id?

                    • Sacha

                      If lesbian feminists (with what used to be called a 'radical' position about interacting with men) want spaces that exclude transpeople, it would be good if they own that clearly with their words.

                      Call it 'FemaleSpace' rather than WomenSpace' perhaps.

                      Just don't expect that associating aggression with penises will do anything about lesbian intimate partner violence, for example.

                    • weka []

                      Lesbians don’t want to exclude trans people they want spaces separate from *males. Do you see the difference?

                      women and lesbians are being prevented from using women centred language. Because some people don’t want women having their own spaces. And ‘lesbian’ IS a word that is already women centred.

                      not sure what your penis/aggression comment is about. Obviously a huge part of lesbian culture has nothing whatsoever to do with penises, and I doubt politicised lesbians need to have explained to them the various issues around domestic violence.

                      honestly Sacha you seem largely unaware of what is going on in this culture war.

                    • weka []

                      You might want to look at how you got from “lesbians want female space separate from trans women” to “lesbians want to exclude trans people”.

                    • solkta

                      @weka

                      Excluding trans woman from a lesbian group is making a statement about gender id, obviously.

                    • weka []

                      solkta, you having avoiding clarifying despite multiple opportunities, I will conclude that you support spaces and boundaries for queer people but deny them for lesbians and other women who aren’t queer. Or something.

                    • Sacha

                      You might want to look at how you got from “lesbians want female space separate from trans women” to “lesbians want to exclude trans people”.

                      A functioning command of the English language.

                    • weka []

                      In English trans women is not equivalent to trans people.

                      I hardly ever see lesbians saying they want to exclude trans people.

                    • solkta

                      @Anker

                      They were there first ie many of them are elderly and have fought hard for women’s and homosexual rights.

                      No they weren't "here first". Trans activists have been around as long as any.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmen_Rupe

                    • solkta

                      @Weka @2.54pm but under my post @12.31pm

                      You have been trying really hard to put words in my mouth and i really don't appreciate it. You have been behaving like RL.

                      All i have been saying is that LGBTQ spaces are for all LGBTQ people. If L people want to have a separate space then that space can't be within LGBTQ space, ie Pride.

                      Also, inserting your posts out of time sequence is making all this hard to follow. As these aren't moderation notes this seems unfair.

                  • Incognito

                    You’re welcome!

                    As an aside, but related to this, there appears to be a cynical undercurrent flowing through TS. Although cynicism/scepticism has its place, especially when being vigilant and holding people in power (e.g. politicians) to account, it can and does spill over into the debate here on TS between ‘ordinary’ people who generally mean well and comment here in good faith. In my opinion, this has an overall negative impact on the discourse here.

    • McFlock 4.2

      Your dictionary is a joke. Maybe try one with a few more definitions of the word. With particular attention paid to the meaning of the sounds "often repeated".

      • Anker 4.2.1

        Me Flook….. dictionary definition of mantra…..

        cambridge dictionary “a word or phrase often repeated and that expresses something that people believe”

        you will need to quote me what your dictionary says.

        I have never heard it used without a positive association.

        but my list is growing

        I am

        hostile

        disrespectful

        a phoney

        like Bob the builder (whoever he is)

        and my dictionary is a joke!

  5. In Vino 5

    I guess we'll soon be speaking of pluralists and singularities..

  6. Anker 6
    • I just want to thank Weka for her very reasoned debate on here. And for sticking to the issues and highlighting what is happening with some trans activists tactics
    • I too have heard of lesbian women being told they are transphobic for not wanting to have sex with people who identify as lesbians who still have dicks. I be heard this second hand from reliable sources
    • Frankly IMO what happened at Wellington Pride was an absolute disgrace. Shame on the organisers. I have commented about it elsewhere.
    • whoever suggested I was playing the victim card, well you are entitled to think that way. I was wanting to point out that some people weren’t playing the ball, but playing the women. This has never happened to me on the Standard before. I know I make a lot of typos, but no one had ever suggested it was deliberate. Thanks Sacha and Incognito for suggesting an alternative (correct) explanation.
    • thanks Anne for your comments. I had the impression we agreed more than disagreed, but I don’t come on the Standard expecting everyone will agree with me! I respect your contribution hugely Anne.
    • solkta, I would encourage women who don’t accept trans ideology to leave the rainbow community. I am maIt’s become very unhealthy for them. I hope they all join speak up for women. But Weka makes an excellent point about does LB etc have rules? Isn’t it just a community

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    6 days ago
  • Bernard's Top 10 @ 10 'pick 'n' mix' for March 14
    TL;DR: My top 10 news and analysis links this morning include:Today’s must-read: Jonathon Porritt calling bullshit in his own blog post on mainstream climate science as ‘The New Denialism’.Local scoop: The Wellington City Council’s list of proposed changes to the IHP recommendations to be debated later today was leaked this ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • No, Prime Minister, rents don’t rise or fall with landlords’ costs
    TL;DR: Prime Minister Christopher Luxon said yesterday tenants should be grateful for the reinstatement of interest deductibility because landlords would pass on their lower tax costs in the form of lower rents. That would be true if landlords were regulated monopolies such as Transpower or Auckland Airport1, but they’re not, ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • Cartoons: ‘At least I didn’t make things awkward’
    This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Tom Toro Tom Toro is a cartoonist and author. He has published over 200 cartoons in The New Yorker since 2010. His cartoons appear in Playboy, the Paris Review, the New York Times, American Bystander, and elsewhere. Related: What 10 EV lovers ...
    6 days ago
  • Solving traffic congestion with Richard Prebble
    The business section of the NZ Herald is full of opinion. Among the more opinionated of all is the ex-Minister of Transport, ex-Minister of Railways, ex MP for Auckland Central (1975-93, Labour), Wellington Central (1996-99, ACT, then list-2005), ex-leader of the ACT Party, uncle to actor Antonia, the veritable granddaddy ...
    Greater AucklandBy Patrick Reynolds
    6 days ago
  • I Think I'm Done Flying Boeing
    Hi,Just quickly — I’m blown away by the stories you’ve shared with me over the last week since I put out the ‘Gary’ podcast, where I told you about the time my friend’s flatmate killed the neighbour.And you keep telling me stories — in the comments section, and in my ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    6 days ago
  • Invoking Aristotle: Of Rings of Power, Stones, and Ships
    The first season of Rings of Power was not awful. It was thoroughly underwhelming, yes, and left a lingering sense of disappointment, but it was more expensive mediocrity than catastrophe. I wrote at length about the series as it came out (see the Review section of the blog, and go ...
    6 days ago
  • Van Velden brings free-market approach to changing labour laws – but her colleagues stick to distr...
    Buzz from the Beehive Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden told Auckland Business Chamber members they were the first audience to hear her priorities as a minister in a government committed to cutting red tape and regulations. She brandished her liberalising credentials, saying Flexible labour markets are the ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago
  • Why Newshub failed
    Chris Trotter writes – TO UNDERSTAND WHY NEWSHUB FAILED, it is necessary to understand how TVNZ changed. Up until 1989, the state broadcaster had been funded by a broadcasting licence fee, collected from every citizen in possession of a television set, supplemented by a relatively modest (compared ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    6 days ago
  • Māori Party on the warpath against landlords and seabed miners – let’s see if mystical creature...
    Bob Edlin writes  –  The Māori Party has been busy issuing a mix of warnings and threats as its expresses its opposition to interest deductibility for landlords and the plans of seabed miners. It remains to be seen whether they  follow the example of indigenous litigants in Australia, ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago

  • Government moves to quickly ratify the NZ-EU FTA
    "The Government is moving quickly to realise an additional $46 million in tariff savings in the EU market this season for Kiwi exporters,” Minister for Trade and Agriculture, Todd McClay says. Parliament is set, this week, to complete the final legislative processes required to bring the New Zealand – European ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 hours ago
  • Positive progress for social worker workforce
    New Zealand’s social workers are qualified, experienced, and more representative of the communities they serve, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “I want to acknowledge and applaud New Zealand’s social workers for the hard work they do, providing invaluable support for our most vulnerable. “To coincide with World ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    11 hours ago
  • Minister confirms reduced RUC rate for PHEVs
    Cabinet has agreed to a reduced road user charge (RUC) rate for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. Owners of PHEVs will be eligible for a reduced rate of $38 per 1,000km once all light electric vehicles (EVs) move into the RUC system from 1 April.  ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    13 hours ago
  • Trade access to overseas markets creates jobs
    Minister of Agriculture and Trade, Todd McClay, says that today’s opening of Riverland Foods manufacturing plant in Christchurch is a great example of how trade access to overseas markets creates jobs in New Zealand.  Speaking at the official opening of this state-of-the-art pet food factory the Minister noted that exports ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    14 hours ago
  • NZ and Chinese Foreign Ministers hold official talks
    Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters met with Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi in Wellington today. “It was a pleasure to host Foreign Minister Wang Yi during his first official visit to New Zealand since 2017. Our discussions were wide-ranging and enabled engagement on many facets of New Zealand’s relationship with China, including trade, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Kāinga Ora instructed to end Sustaining Tenancies
    Kāinga Ora – Homes & Communities has been instructed to end the Sustaining Tenancies Framework and take stronger measures against persistent antisocial behaviour by tenants, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “Earlier today Finance Minister Nicola Willis and I sent an interim Letter of Expectations to the Board of Kāinga Ora. ...
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    1 day ago
  • Speech to Auckland Business Chamber: Growth is the answer
    Tēna koutou katoa. Greetings everyone. Thank you to the Auckland Chamber of Commerce and the Honourable Simon Bridges for hosting this address today. I acknowledge the business leaders in this room, the leaders and governors, the employers, the entrepreneurs, the investors, and the wealth creators. The coalition Government shares your ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Singapore rounds out regional trip
    Minister Winston Peters completed the final leg of his visit to South and South East Asia in Singapore today, where he focused on enhancing one of New Zealand’s indispensable strategic partnerships.      “Singapore is our most important defence partner in South East Asia, our fourth-largest trading partner and a ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Minister van Velden represents New Zealand at International Democracy Summit
    Minister of Internal Affairs and Workplace Relations and Safety, Hon. Brooke van Velden, will travel to the Republic of Korea to represent New Zealand at the Third Summit for Democracy on 18 March. The summit, hosted by the Republic of Korea, was first convened by the United States in 2021, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Insurance Council of NZ Speech, 7 March 2024, Auckland
    ICNZ Speech 7 March 2024, Auckland  Acknowledgements and opening  Mōrena, ngā mihi nui. Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho.  Good morning, it’s a privilege to be here to open the ICNZ annual conference, thank you to Mark for the Mihi Whakatau  My thanks to Tim Grafton for inviting me ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Five-year anniversary of Christchurch terror attacks
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Lead Coordination Minister Judith Collins have expressed their deepest sympathy on the five-year anniversary of the Christchurch terror attacks. “March 15, 2019, was a day when families, communities and the country came together both in sorrow and solidarity,” Mr Luxon says.  “Today we pay our respects to the 51 shuhada ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Speech for Financial Advice NZ Conference 5 March 2024
    Speech for Financial Advice NZ Conference 5 March 2024  Acknowledgements and opening  Morena, Nga Mihi Nui.  Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho. Thanks Nate for your Mihi Whakatau  Good morning. It’s a pleasure to formally open your conference this morning. What a lovely day in Wellington, What a great ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Early visit to Indonesia strengthens ties
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters held discussions in Jakarta today about the future of relations between New Zealand and South East Asia’s most populous country.   “We are in Jakarta so early in our new government’s term to reflect the huge importance we place on our relationship with Indonesia and South ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • China Foreign Minister to visit
    Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters has announced that the Foreign Minister of China, Wang Yi, will visit New Zealand next week.  “We look forward to re-engaging with Foreign Minister Wang Yi and discussing the full breadth of the bilateral relationship, which is one of New Zealand’s ...
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    5 days ago
  • Minister opens new Auckland Rail Operations Centre
    Transport Minister Simeon Brown has today opened the new Auckland Rail Operations Centre, which will bring together KiwiRail, Auckland Transport, and Auckland One Rail to improve service reliability for Aucklanders. “The recent train disruptions in Auckland have highlighted how important it is KiwiRail and Auckland’s rail agencies work together to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Celebrating 10 years of Crankworx Rotorua
    The Government is proud to support the 10th edition of Crankworx Rotorua as the Crankworx World Tour returns to Rotorua from 16-24 March 2024, says Minister for Economic Development Melissa Lee.  “Over the past 10 years as Crankworx Rotorua has grown, so too have the economic and social benefits that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Government delivering on tax commitments
    Legislation implementing coalition Government tax commitments and addressing long-standing tax anomalies will be progressed in Parliament next week, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The legislation is contained in an Amendment Paper to the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill issued today.  “The Amendment Paper represents ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Significant Natural Areas requirement to be suspended
    Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard has today announced that the Government has agreed to suspend the requirement for councils to comply with the Significant Natural Areas (SNA) provisions of the National Policy Statement for Indigenous Biodiversity for three years, while it replaces the Resource Management Act (RMA).“As it stands, SNAs ...
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    6 days ago
  • Government classifies drought conditions in Top of the South as medium-scale adverse event
    Agriculture Minister Todd McClay has classified the drought conditions in the Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts as a medium-scale adverse event, acknowledging the challenging conditions facing farmers and growers in the district. “Parts of Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts are in the grip of an intense dry spell. I know ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government partnership to tackle $332m facial eczema problem
    The Government is helping farmers eradicate the significant impact of facial eczema (FE) in pastoral animals, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced.  “A $20 million partnership jointly funded by Beef + Lamb NZ, the Government, and the primary sector will save farmers an estimated NZD$332 million per year, and aims to ...
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    6 days ago
  • NZ, India chart path to enhanced relationship
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has completed a successful visit to India, saying it was an important step in taking the relationship between the two countries to the next level.   “We have laid a strong foundation for the Coalition Government’s priority of enhancing New Zealand-India relations to generate significant future benefit for both countries,” says Mr Peters, ...
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    6 days ago
  • Ruapehu Alpine Lifts bailout the last, say Ministers
    Cabinet has agreed to provide $7 million to ensure the 2024 ski season can go ahead on the Whakapapa ski field in the central North Island but has told the operator Ruapehu Alpine Lifts it is the last financial support it will receive from taxpayers. Cabinet also agreed to provide ...
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    6 days ago
  • Govt takes action to drive better cancer services
    Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
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    6 days ago
  • Govt takes action to drive better cancer services
    Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Work begins on SH29 upgrades near Tauriko
    Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Work begins on SH29 upgrades near Tauriko
    Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Fresh produce price drop welcome
    Lower fruit and vegetable prices are welcome news for New Zealanders who have been doing it tough at the supermarket, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. Stats NZ reported today the price of fruit and vegetables has dropped 9.3 percent in the 12 months to February 2024.  “Lower fruit and vege ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Statement to the 68th United Nations Commission on the Status of Women
    Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all.  Chair, I am honoured to address the sixty-eighth session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
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    6 days ago
  • Speech to the 68th United Nations Commission on the Status of Women (CSW68)
    Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all.  Chair, I am honoured to address the 68th session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government backs rural led catchment projects
    The coalition Government is supporting farmers to enhance land management practices by investing $3.3 million in locally led catchment groups, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced. “Farmers and growers deliver significant prosperity for New Zealand and it’s vital their ongoing efforts to improve land management practices and water quality are supported,” ...
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    7 days ago
  • Speech to Auckland Business Chamber
    Good evening everyone and thank you for that lovely introduction.   Thank you also to the Honourable Simon Bridges for the invitation to address your members. Since being sworn in, this coalition Government has hit the ground running with our 100-day plan, delivering the changes that New Zealanders expect of us. ...
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    1 week ago
  • Commission’s advice on ETS settings tabled
    Recommendations from the Climate Change Commission for New Zealand on the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) auction and unit limit settings for the next five years have been tabled in Parliament, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. “The Commission provides advice on the ETS annually. This is the third time the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Government lowering building costs
    The coalition Government is beginning its fight to lower building costs and reduce red tape by exempting minor building work from paying the building levy, says Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk. “Currently, any building project worth $20,444 including GST or more is subject to the building levy which is ...
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    1 week ago
  • Trustee tax change welcomed
    Proposed changes to tax legislation to prevent the over-taxation of low-earning trusts are welcome, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The changes have been recommended by Parliament’s Finance and Expenditure Committee following consideration of submissions on the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill. “One of the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Minister’s Ramadan message
    Assalaamu alaikum. السَّلَام عليكم In light of the holy month of Ramadan, I want to extend my warmest wishes to our Muslim community in New Zealand. Ramadan is a time for spiritual reflection, renewed devotion, perseverance, generosity, and forgiveness.  It’s a time to strengthen our bonds and appreciate the diversity ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Minister appoints new NZTA Chair
    Former Transport Minister and CEO of the Auckland Business Chamber Hon Simon Bridges has been appointed as the new Board Chair of the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) for a three-year term, Transport Minister Simeon Brown announced today. “Simon brings extensive experience and knowledge in transport policy and governance to the role. He will ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Speech to Life Sciences Summit
    Good morning all, it is a pleasure to be here as Minister of Science, Innovation and Technology.  It is fantastic to see how connected and collaborative the life science and biotechnology industry is here in New Zealand. I would like to thank BioTechNZ and NZTech for the invitation to address ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Progress continues apace on water storage
    Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says he is looking forward to the day when three key water projects in Northland are up and running, unlocking the full potential of land in the region. Mr Jones attended a community event at the site of the Otawere reservoir near Kerikeri on Friday. ...
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    1 week ago
  • Government agrees to restore interest deductions
    Associate Finance Minister David Seymour has today announced that the Government has agreed to restore deductibility for mortgage interest on residential investment properties. “Help is on the way for landlords and renters alike. The Government’s restoration of interest deductibility will ease pressure on rents and simplify the tax code,” says ...
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    1 week ago
  • Minister to attend World Anti-Doping Agency Symposium
    Sport and Recreation Minister Chris Bishop will travel to Switzerland today to attend an Executive Committee meeting and Symposium of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). Mr Bishop will then travel on to London where he will attend a series of meetings in his capacity as Infrastructure Minister. “New Zealanders believe ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

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