I am bemused by Demi Levato buying into the ridiculous effort that some are making to reject gender by substituting in the place of 'he/she/his/her' the plural versions 'they, them, their' etc.
The last time this happened was the 'Royal We', when a powerful monarch like Louis XIV of France imposed their opinions on the rest of their courts by saying things like 'We are not amused.' Meaning, 'Don't anyone here dare laugh!' If you laughed before or louder than Louis XIV, you were likely to be exiled from his court, and so stricken from ranks of the nobility.
Grammatically, it is a matter of linguistic accident that English personal pronouns are gendered in the singular, but no longer in the plural. In French, for example, 'they' is still gendered in the plural: 'ils' for the boysies, and 'elles' for the girlsies. How will Demi get on if she tries to speak French?
There is a precedent in English where a singular noun like 'everybody' actually means 'all of us/them', so has a plural aspect to it.
We say 'Everybody left their umbrellas in the hall.' It is too complicated to say 'Everyone left his/her umbrella…' But that is the limit.
To extend this practice to the point where 'they' are supposed to be one single person, either or neither male or female; is a truly futile endeavour, and, to my mind, the height of folly.
If the gender-sensitive woke think this is a practicable measure, I think they are dreaming.
Normal people may not worry too much about what your gender is, but their natural speech patterns will keep singular separate from plural.
I think Demi's efforts are doomed to failure. People will not tolerate confusion of plural/singular.
Demi needs to find another gender-neutral singular pronoun.
Edit – I meant to write 'a powerful monarch like Louis XIV of France or Queen Victoria' but omitted Queen Victoria. Damn – I was not trying to present Louis XIV as of dubious gender… Try 'powerful monarchs like Louis XIV..'
But that example shows why Demi's idea it will not work. People will want to correct singular/plural errors.
we already use their as singular routinely, in part to address inherent sexism eg assuming doctors are make.
Their is way so simpler than some of the alternatives.
I do find a fair amount of the NB stuff performative and will be interested to see how many people still ID this way in ten or twenty years. For those for whom it’s more genuine or a tool to manage dysphoria or mental/social distress I think empathy and consideration is warranted. There are political boundaries to be debated too (still haven’t seen a good rationale for why NB males should have access to women’s spaces).
Maybe I am an old fogey, but I would instinctively avoid the 'their' thing by asking,
"Who is it?" (Or, "Who is your Doctor?")
Grammatically, 'their' is used as an easy way of avoiding the burden of having to say 'his/her'. This was so long before any thoughts of sexism, and as I said above, it usually went with singular nouns indicating a group of people, such as 'everybody.'
I agree that empathy and consideration are warranted, but I fear that only a minority of the population will take heed of that. The vast hordes will want to stay with his/ her where it is singular, and keep 'their' for the plural.
In the very long term, it is possible that a different English language will emerge, where 'he' and 'she' will have disappeared just as 'thou' and 'ye' have already died out.
But I don't think this woke thing of Demi's is going to work in the short term.
Gendered pronouns don't need to disappear. And you've figured out how to avoid gender assumptions for people in different roles.
I reckon the broad acceptance of a gender-neutral singular pronoun will come sooner than you think. For one thing, loads of Demi Lovato fans will now change their linguistic habits. Just as fans of Elliot Page updated their language. And people who aren't fans might not… but then, after a brief flurry of activity, non-fans will be discussing Demi Lovato just as much as before the announcement.
Funny how if it was a Maori place-name that was being misspelled or mispronounced according to traditional usage – there'd be all the usual suspects yelling 'racist' at anyone who dared demure.
But when it comes to butchering a fundamental feature of English – i.e the use of gendered cases – then suddenly you're all for it.
As opposed to deliberately mis-spelling an existing term as a careless or intended insult, the search for a gender-neutral pronoun in the singular is just another case of language being expanded to deal with concepts it wasn't previously equipped to address.
"Computers" are now machines on a desk, rather than people in another room hand-calculating complex math problems.
We have "robots" because "automatons" or "mechanical Turks" didn't quite denote the same thing.
We now have a multitude of terms for different atypical behaviours or neurological conditions, rather than assuming demonic possession or a uterus taking a walkabout through the body.
Heck, if you told Elizabeth1 that a "germ" was a microscopic monocellular organism, get ready for a demand to see a dictionar- oh, whoops, out of luck there, too.
Nope, you're right, anything that can't be clearly expressed in the patois of Chaucer is fucking abysmal.
The observable fact that we're not having this conversation in the 'patois of Chaucer' is sufficient evidence that languages do evolve over time. And that they might do so in an unconscious, organic fashion is entirely legitimate.
But then you get that social engineering, ideological butchering that Orwell wrote so eloquently about. Fucking abysmal indeed.
I generally keep out of fundamentalist disputes because the true believers only want to 'educate' you about their convictions.
You’re welcome to invent as many new categories for the endless range of human sexual variation as you like – but equally it’s none of your business if a large majority of us continue to use gendered terms as we see fit for our own lives and experience.
So how does subtracting out of the language the ineradicable distinction between men and women 'add' to anything?
Demi Lovato isn't outlawing gendered pronouns. Just choosing not to be referred to by them. Because they feel gendered pronouns don't adequately describe them. The new use of an existing term adds a new concept that can be expressed by the English language.
You can continue to ask to be referred to in whatever damned way you want, it doesn't subtract anything from you.
Yeah, English has a long history of being adapted and added to by its users. English is kind of founded on that ease of adaptability, borrowing and invention.
So the search for new words in English by English users to describe themselves and the things around them is entirely legitimate. It has been going on for centuries.
I believe Te Reo also borrows to describe things not of the Maori world. But it is up to Maori to administer their language, not for non-Maori to demand to be able to change it for their own convenience. That is colonial (and, by definition, racist) thinking.
So, the comment above yours shows ignorance and intolerance on two levels: a disregard for Maori taonga and the strong-arm behaviour associated with that, and also a disregard for people wanting to use their own language to help them describe their world.
I believe the motive for the attack was the mostly the latter, as some folk get mighty triggered by being asked to accept non-binary people.
And, it is not "woke" to criticise ignorant and intolerant views. Rather, it is vitally important for social and cultural growth.
Mechanical Turk? First thought, curiosity; second that must be racist, before I even know what it means. We are becoming hyper-sensitive, not just a bit more.
I don't want to look up something in every comment I read Sacha. I do prefer to spend time on Google looking at factual stuff to back up my comments, or add a view to them, or see what is going on elsewhere. If I occasionally present trivia I think that is a healthy thing now and then. Looking up mechanical Turk is not trivia I can be bothered with.
I'm off in a moment to see what person, group was behind Hitler. It seems that everything has money behind it so he probably had shadow backers letting the madman do the dirty work. There is a lot that we don't know about everything important. So MT will have to wait.
True – I can't see these offerings being taken up broadly, either.
Earlier on, I wondered if the fairly logical 'Ms' would take on for women who wished to be neither 'Miss' nor 'Mrs.' Mzz is not a natural sound for an English monosyllable, but the word is now accepted.
'Ms' however was a new word, not an irrational subversion of already well-defined words.
General usage will eventually determine what becomes accepted, so time will tell. Personally, I suspect that the majority of speakers will fail to adopt this 'they, their/ singular thing, and that it will not last long.
I just don’t want it imposed on me. I am a biological female. My title is Ms. And I want places in women’s sport for biological females. I also was change rooms etc for biological females.
i don’t agree that trans women are women. I respect their right to identify as a different gender. And have always been respectful towards the very small number of trans people I have come across.
"I don't agree Trans Women are Woman" doesn't sound very respectful to me, and I'm sure no-one is imposing anything on you. Your comment made me remember Bob the Builder from Tauranga, "I don't mind the Gays, as long as they don't shove it down my throat" As a biological Male I will never understand how it feels to be Trans but damn it I will try to not make judgment's on them and will treat them in a manner I would wish to be treated. However, I too am struggling with the idea of our Trans Athlete competing in the Womans Weightlifting but I don't know enough about the science to know if they have an un-natural advantage.
Red-blooded – I'm sure no-one is imposing anything on you.
You must live in a tight little world if you don't understand the way that demands for new categories of being, are being felt by people who want to maintain humanity in its ancient and recognisable form and groups. And make allowances and tolerances for the few people who are different. Not have it regarded as a social fashion, like a re-run of 1960's anything goes behaviour.
Actually I do live in a tight little world thanks greywarshark partly because of "people who want to maintain humanity in its ancient and recognisable form and groups". With maturity I am reveling in my grumpy old man status and as one of the few I no longer see the need to tolerate a majority, incapable of non-judgement and inclusivity. How wonderful it must be for you in your security of being in the majority that can relegate those of us who aren't, to being an "anything goes, social fashion"
Cheap slur solkta. When one turns an attempt to seriously discuss a contentious matter into a cheap joke rather than face up to being wrong it shows the limit to rationality in the matter.l
It helps to understand that trans women are biologically male, it’s their internal sense of themselves as a woman that makes them trans.
TWAW is a slogan, and a mantra, that is routinely used to promote trans activist politics including propaganda and suppression of debate in addition to its more even handed uses. There are people being fired, banned, deplatfirmed, harassed, abused and ostracised for saying that trans women are male or men. Whether one agrees with either side, there is no doubt that pressure and imposition is great. I’ve not seen anything like it in decades of politics.
Even people offering a compromise of trans women are trans women are being told to stfu in the worst of ways (and tellingly, it’s women saying this that get treated the worst and the left is sanctioning that).
by and large most liberal people across the spectrum have had no problem with trans women considering themselves women. Including feminists. The law was adjusted to support trans people via a legal fiction (that sex can be changed). But there were limits on this eg in the UK the law allows exclusion of trans women where that is warranted due to women’s rights. Think rape crisis centres.
the problem we have now is that there is a fast and largely undebated social engineering going on that creates a direct conflict between the rights of women and trans women. Should a woman’s refuge be obliged to house pre surgical transition TW (ie males who self indentify as women) with women who have been raped and beaten by males? Or should society continue to allow women to have separate spaces and for society to provide TW with refuges?
that’s one example, there are many others that illustrate a current conflict of rights between two groups.
Thanks again Weka, it is complicated indeed. In my limited knowledge I have been jumping to the defense of Trans Woman, assuming them to be Transitioned (as in Post Surgical Transition).
Having witnessed a friends Grandson, virtually from birth, identify as female and is now transitioning, I hail her bravery and respect her enough to now think of her as a woman , well young lady in this case and if she articulates to me a preference of pronouns etc I will attempt to alter my previously comfortable him/her she/he narrative. Have a great day.
Agree it is complex. And many people not involved in the debate likewise assume TW are fully transitioned. Most TW aren’t. There are social, political and legislative changes happening that don’t take that into account.
One reason why it matters is that the NZ govt wants to introduce self ID legislation this year to make it easier for trans people to socially transition. This seems laudable but there’s a huge conflict with women’s rights as self id allows any man to say he is a woman. This is already happening in many places in the world and discussion has been actively and forcefully suppressed. That alone should be raising alarm bells.
Unfortunately individual trans people like your friend are going to get caught in the cross fire. And it remains to be seen if women will get to retain their sex based rights.
Are we not allowed to say we don’t agree with something anymore? Otherwise we are not being respectful?
This of course is part of the problem.
We are human mammals and mammals have two sexes, man and women.
I understand that a very small minority of people don’t identify with their birth sex and they like Demi, are entitled to make this public and to ask to be treated respectively for it.
to you I might hsve sounded like Bob the Builder, but I didn’t use his phrase, so no not really.
we fought hard for Ms so a women’s title didn’t indicate her marital status. Have no problem with with other or some such being added when titles asked for.
we agree on women’s sport. University of Otago released something recently that shows trans women have an unfair advantage over biological women. Of course they do. They have greater muscle mass (even if they have transitioned) they have testosterone and likely other hormones and they have advantages of height and statute.
Absolutely Anker, you're allowed to disagree with anything you like, it is not connected to respectfulness (and before anyone else goes on about PC gone mad or Wokeness etc, don't bother with the latest Right Wing Lazy Slur, that's not aimed at you Anker) but you were the one who was, on more than one instance, highlighting how respectful you are which I simply thought denying a person their right to be who they are didn't seem very respectful. Agree to disagree. As intelligent Mammals we have found ways to correct other irregularities, Heart Defects, Siamese Twins, Cleft Palete, you name it. So if a Trans person has bravely gone through all that is required to be the Gender they assimilate to I will happily refer to them as they, or he, or she, whatever they prefer. I'm sorry but the "I don't want it imposed on me" was what reminded me of the "don't shove it down my throat" angle I found that humorous, no harm meant. Some of my best friends are …. etc (pick your minority.) They're all a bit red rag to a Bull to this old fella. But yeah, very happy to agree on the need for sporting competitions to be a test between people with equal chances and as you say I'm sure muscle mass, memory and testosterone can be considered making the playing field unequal.
Yes red blooded one, I have mentioned a number of times I am respectful to trans people who I meet. Probably I don’t need to repeat this again.
interestingly enough none of these trans women have said to me “I am a real woman and you have to agree with me”. If they did out of politeness, I would probably fudge it.
however the situation that is problematic is the activists, many of whom aren’t trans, stating “trans women are real women” who then require that I accept or concur with this statement, else it means I am transphobic. I don’t agree with this statement. To me it is anti science and I believe the acceptance of this statement erodes biological females identity and their sex based rights. I believe shutting down people through intimidation, which is happening in many countries is wrong, and I will stand up for my right to voice my opinion, especially when it is based on objective science.
btw I was told on this website by McFlook that I was being hostile to trans people because I described the statement trans women are real women as a mantra. But the dictionary definition of mantra is a statement or slogan that is often repeated. So how that is a hostile thing to say is beyond me. So I am not being respectful if I state my opinion based on science and I am hostile if I use the word mantra.
bring it on guys. Your attempts to paint me in this way only serve to illustrate my point that if women question trans ideology, they are cast in a negative light
Yes I suppose fudging it could be seen as being phoney when someone asks you a question and you think the answer could cause hurt. some would say it was well intentioned kindness or good manners even.
Personally I think everyone does this at times, ie fudges the truth when you think the truth will cause hurt. But maybe you have never done that.
very aware of the complaints against me during this debate. Phoney, disrespectful and hostile! Goodness me. Luckily I don’t agree with them, so it doesn’t bother me.
Why can't one say either anonymously or under a pseudo or real name the truth about something important to them and society though it is unpopular; but resile from saying it to a 'trans woman' face to face? It isn't phoney, it is just respectful to the individual. Why is that not plain to you solkta? Did your mother not teach you any manners, courtesy.
It is unpleasant being harassed by people who have something against you personally or your type – just getting a stare when there is nothing unusual about your appearance, registers. But saying it somewhere else to a group or family how you feel is quite reasonable.
There were some images taken by a Muslim woman of how someone had abused her and thrown things at her, and she said it had happened a number of times before. The attacker seemed mentally unwell in behaviour and aggression. The Muslim woman did not care for this face to face behaviour at all.
Just as much as someone might not care at all for online speech that targets and hurts them.
As for little familial, social, or workplace support groups to incubate bigotry with none of the 'other' around, well, it's surprising how long they can keep the old hatreds as an undercurrent in a community. But there are too many hot mics around these days to keep it bubbling to the surface, imo.
Oh yes I see what you mean. The spiritual origins of the word. But in terms of that a mantra held special powers.
nut I don’t believe that trans women are real women has no meaning nor do I think it has special spiritual powers. I think the phrase has meaning for those who agree with it. I just don’t agree with it.
not being a very spiritual person, when I think of the word mantra, I think of it used in psychology to help people build self esteem eg “I am a good person”. I think I mentioned that before. But to be honest, I can’t see the spiritual or the psychological meaning being hostile. Just my view
"I am a good person" has an explicit and direct meaning.
Mantra are much more about the vibe of the collected words and sounds.
"Here we go, here we go, here we go" is an expression of collective expectation that gets its power from a crowd of people repeating it, not from the meaning of the words (half the time the "we" aren't going anywhere).
"totality of the universe/jewel/sacred lotus/enlightenment" – well, one could meditate upon that for ages, and the chant helps, but it's a bit of a semantic word salad with a literal translation.
"Trans women are women" is a clear statement with an explicit meaning one can accept or reject. One person can state it once, or a crowd can chant it repeatedly. It's not a "mantra".
Are you saying McFlook that I am targeting trans people?
weird because someone who identifies as queer on this site told me they had the first discussion on this site (with me) that didn’t go into an argument
Are you saying McFlook that I am targeting trans people?
weird because someone who identifies as queer on this site told me they had the first discussion on this site (with me) that didn’t go into an argument
You know? That you can't even write down someone's user name correctly, to me, sort of draws a big fat disqualifying line through any comment you make.
As a site meant for robust debate, it's far too puerile to be taken seriously, so maybe do better?
Actually, I type-write in more than one language and when I don’t change the language setting/preference, it can be a real pain. Such is life for someone who’s (almost) bi-lingual. Some devices seem to remember everything I’ve ever typed in 🙁
As someone who sees behind the TS curtain, so to speak, I’d say that Anker does somewhat struggle with the technology and commenting here. I believe they’re trying hard so please don’t be too harsh in your assumptions and judgements.
I've consciously done it in the past, and though it's a cheap and easy laugh, I made a decision to stop it – Let your arguments and words do the put downs, and leave the brain dead comedy to morning radio hosts, who seem to excel at it.
Thanks Incognito. That meant a lot. Because it is true and the mis/spelling of McFlock name was an error. My apologies McFlock. I do struggle with technology, spelling and eyesight and I am often aware that I make typos on the Standard.
I don’t really go in for cheap shots like that and I do my best to play the ball not the person.
my experience on this thread is that is not what others are doing with me.
accused of disrespect, being like bob the builder, being a phoney, hostility, having a crap dictionary and IMO people getting very pedantic about the word mantra to try and back up the claim that I was being hostile.
I am here to assert my opinion and that’s what I did. I realised that some might not like my opinion, or want to read my opinion, because I made a typo with someone’s name.
I never thought too much about trans issues although saw a very moving and compassionate doco in the 80s about a trans woman. So I understood their suffering.
what I am against is debate being shut down, seeing other women, often elderly people who fought hard for homosexual and women’s rights, being excluded, having their views shut down, being trespassed from Pride, having the police called on them, mainly because they won’t repeat the statement trans women are real women. They merely want to debate the issue and preserve our sex based rights.
I do not accept the gender ideology trumps biological sex.
But again thanks incognito. I did appreciate you saying that about me and technology even though it exposes some inadequacy in me!
I don't always agree with you as you know Anker, but I do agree with you that gender ideology does not trump biological sex. That does not mean I support the abuse and violence meted out to trans persons. It should be treated with the same seriousness as abuse and violence towards anyone else, but I fear it often isn't. It's the… well you asked forit mentality at play.
And don't give up. In the end, honesty always wins the day.
For the record Anker, no-one accused you of being like Bob the Builder, I noted your comment "I just don’t want it imposed on me" reminded me of a comment he had made. (He, by the way, as you stated you didn't know who he was, was a National Party Member of Parliament from Tauranga yonks ago)
You came in as the provocateur with the statement "i don’t agree that trans women are women" so when some of us disagree with your statement, it's a bit rich to be pulling the Victim Card.
My point was simply stating her comment reminded me of someone else's comment. It's no more complicated than that. Please try not to read between my lines or put words on my mouth. I am quite capable of screwing up my own comments without others making stuff up.
I really don't understand how you can't see that someone can't be part of the LGBT community while throwing one of those groups under the proverbial bus.
telling lesbians that sexual preference is bigotry and they should learn how to like dick so they can date trans women.
Seems a fair stretch from someone saying that the term 'women' includes more people to insisting you have to be intimate with any of them. Some very confused thinking going on.
Indeed, but this is what is happening. Lesbian dating apps include trans women and lesbians are called bigots or banned if they say they want to date only women. This has been building fir a long time. It will get more well known now that the issue is starting to affect gay men.
can you explain what you mean by throwing one of those groups under the bus?
Again it is the shut down of the debate I object to, and the brutality with which some of those women who are progressive by nature have been treated. They were there first ie many of them are elderly and have fought hard for women’s and homosexual rights. Not that that is good reason for other groups to go.
but it seems if you don’t accept trans ideology, then you are silenced and excluded in vicious and sometimes petty and childish ways.
I am not a member of LBGT , but my advice would be to these women would be get out and form your own organisation.
When it comes to belonging to specific groups or using designated LGBTQ spaces yes. When i was at uni i spent time hanging out in the LGBTQ space provided by the student union (i'm bi). This space was there to provide a safe place for all LGBTQ individuals and attitudes presented by Anker would not have been tolerated there.
Sure, but that doesn’t answer my question and its an important one.
if lesbians who want spaces that are female only, should they be allowed them? Should such a group be allowed at Pride if they say nothing at all about gender id?
If lesbian feminists (with what used to be called a 'radical' position about interacting with men) want spaces that exclude transpeople, it would be good if they own that clearly with their words.
Call it 'FemaleSpace' rather than WomenSpace' perhaps.
Just don't expect that associating aggression with penises will do anything about lesbian intimate partner violence, for example.
Lesbians don’t want to exclude trans people they want spaces separate from *males. Do you see the difference?
women and lesbians are being prevented from using women centred language. Because some people don’t want women having their own spaces. And ‘lesbian’ IS a word that is already women centred.
not sure what your penis/aggression comment is about. Obviously a huge part of lesbian culture has nothing whatsoever to do with penises, and I doubt politicised lesbians need to have explained to them the various issues around domestic violence.
honestly Sacha you seem largely unaware of what is going on in this culture war.
solkta, you having avoiding clarifying despite multiple opportunities, I will conclude that you support spaces and boundaries for queer people but deny them for lesbians and other women who aren’t queer. Or something.
You have been trying really hard to put words in my mouth and i really don't appreciate it. You have been behaving like RL.
All i have been saying is that LGBTQ spaces are for all LGBTQ people. If L people want to have a separate space then that space can't be within LGBTQ space, ie Pride.
Also, inserting your posts out of time sequence is making all this hard to follow. As these aren't moderation notes this seems unfair.
As an aside, but related to this, there appears to be a cynical undercurrent flowing through TS. Although cynicism/scepticism has its place, especially when being vigilant and holding people in power (e.g. politicians) to account, it can and does spill over into the debate here on TS between ‘ordinary’ people who generally mean well and comment here in good faith. In my opinion, this has an overall negative impact on the discourse here.
Your dictionary is a joke. Maybe try one with a few more definitions of the word. With particular attention paid to the meaning of the sounds "often repeated".
I just want to thank Weka for her very reasoned debate on here. And for sticking to the issues and highlighting what is happening with some trans activists tactics
I too have heard of lesbian women being told they are transphobic for not wanting to have sex with people who identify as lesbians who still have dicks. I be heard this second hand from reliable sources
Frankly IMO what happened at Wellington Pride was an absolute disgrace. Shame on the organisers. I have commented about it elsewhere.
whoever suggested I was playing the victim card, well you are entitled to think that way. I was wanting to point out that some people weren’t playing the ball, but playing the women. This has never happened to me on the Standard before. I know I make a lot of typos, but no one had ever suggested it was deliberate. Thanks Sacha and Incognito for suggesting an alternative (correct) explanation.
thanks Anne for your comments. I had the impression we agreed more than disagreed, but I don’t come on the Standard expecting everyone will agree with me! I respect your contribution hugely Anne.
solkta, I would encourage women who don’t accept trans ideology to leave the rainbow community. I am maIt’s become very unhealthy for them. I hope they all join speak up for women. But Weka makes an excellent point about does LB etc have rules? Isn’t it just a community
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This video includes conclusions of the creator climate scientist Dr. Adam Levy. It is presented to our readers as an informed perspective. Please see video description for references (if any). Climate change is everywhere. And when something's everywhere it can feel like it's nowhere. So how do we get our heads ...
Its a law like gravity: whenever a right-wing government is elected, they start attacking democracy. And now, after talking to their Republican and Tory and Fidesz chums at the International Democracy Union forum in Wellington, National is doing it here, announcing plans to remove election-day enrolment. Or, to put it ...
Yesterday Winston Peters focussed his attention on the important matter at hand. Tweeting. Like the former, and quite possibly next, orange POTUS, from whom he takes much of his political strategy, Winston is an avid X’er.His message didn’t resemble an historic address this time. In fact it was more reminiscent ...
Buzz from the Beehive A significant decline in natural gas production has given Resources Minister Shane Jones an opportunity to reiterate his enthusiasm for the mining and burning of coal. For good measure, he has praised an announcement from Genesis Energy that it will resume importing coal. He and Energy ...
“Follow the money” is the classic directive to journalists trying to understand where power and influence lie in society. In terms of uncovering who influences various New Zealand political parties and governments, it therefore pays to look at who is funding them. The political parties are legally obliged to make ...
Rob MacCullough writes – Here is my subjective ranking on a “most-left” to “most-right” scale of most of our major NZ Universities, with some anecdotal (and at times amusing) evidence to back up the claim.Extreme Left Auckland University of TechnologyEvidenceThe ...
Eric Crampton writes – I hadn’t thought about this one until a helpful email showed up in my inbox.It’s pretty obvious that income tax thresholds should automatically index with inflation – whether to anchor the thresholds in percentiles of the income distribution, or to anchor against a real ...
Jacqui Van Der Kaay writes – Parliament’s speaker had no option but to refer Green MP Julie Anne Genter to the Privileges Committee for her behaviour in the House last Wednesday evening. The incident, in which she crossed the floor to wave a book and yell at National ...
Gary Judd writes – The Dean of the law school at the Auckland University of Technology is someone called Khylee Quince. I have been sent her social media posting in which she has, over the LawNews headline “Senior King’s Counsel files complaint about compulsory tikanga Maori studies for ...
Cleo Paskal writes – WASHINGTON, D.C.: ‘Many of us have received phone calls from [the opposing camp] telling them if they join the camp they will be given projects for their wards and $300,000 [around US$35,000] each’, says former Malaita Premier Daniel Suidani. The elections in Solomon Islands aren’t ...
With hindsight, it was inevitable that (a) Hamas would agree to the ceasefire deal brokered by Egypt and Qatar and that ( b) Israel would then immediately launch attacks on Rafah, regardless. We might have hoped the concessions made by Hamas would cause Israel to desist from slaughtering thousands more ...
Placards and mourners outside the Kilbirnie Mosque following the Christchurch terror attack: MSD has terminated the Kaiwhakaoranga service, which has been used by 415 families since the attacks. Photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: The Government’s pledge to only cut ‘back office’ staff rather than ‘frontline’ services is on increasingly shaky ground, with ...
There’s been a few smaller public transport announcements over the last week or so that I thought I’d cover in a single post. Fareshare I’ve long called for Auckland Transport to offer a way to enable employer-subsidised public transport options. The need for this took on even more importance ...
Parliament’s speaker had no option but to refer Green MP Julie Anne Genter to the Privileges Committee for her behaviour in the House last Wednesday evening. The incident, in which she crossed the floor to wave a book and yell at National Minister Matt Doocey, reflects poorly on Genter and ...
On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
Who likes being sneered at? Nobody. Worse yet, when the sneerer has their facts all wrong, and might well be an idiot.The sneer in question is The adults are in charge now, and it is a sneer offered in retort to criticism of this new Government, no matter how well ...
When in government, Labour pushed to extend the Parliamentary term to four years, to reduce accountability and our ability to vote out a bad government. And now, they're trying to do it through the member's ballot, with a Four-Year Parliamentary Term Legislation Bill. The bill at least requires a referendum ...
A ballot for a single Member's Bill was held today, and the following bill was drawn: Public Works (Prohibition of Compulsory Acquisition of Māori Land) Amendment Bill (Hūhana Lyndon) The bill would prevent the government from stealing Māori land in breach of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. It ...
Simeon Brown, alongside Wayne Brown, is favouring a political figleaf now in exchange for loading up tens of millions in extra interest costs on Auckland ratepayers. Photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: Ratings agency Standard & Poor’s is pushing back hard at suggestions from Local Government Minister Simeon Brown and Mayor Wayne Brown ...
Buzz from the Beehive One headline-grabber from the Beehive yesterday was the OECD’s advice that the government must bring the Budget deficit under control or face higher interest rates. Another was the announcement of a $1.9 billion “investment” in Corrections over the next four years. In the best interests of ...
Chris Trotter writes – Had Zheng He’s fleet sailed east, not west, in the early Fifteenth Century, how different our world would be. There is little reason to suppose that the sea-going junks of the Ming Dynasty, among the largest and most sophisticated sailing vessels ever constructed, would have failed ...
David Farrar writes – Two articles give a useful contrast in balance. Both seek to be neutral explainer articles. This one in the Herald on Social Investment covers the pros and cons nicely. It links to critical pieces and talks about aspects that failed and aspects that are more ...
The tikanga regulations will compel law students to be taught that a system which does not conform with the rule of law is nevertheless law which should be observed and applied…Gary Judd KC writes – I have made a complaint to Parliament’s Regulation ...
The future of Te Huia, the train between Hamilton and Auckland, has been getting a lot of attention recently as current funding for it is only in place till the end of June. The government initially agreed to a five year trial, through to April 2026, but that was subject ...
TL;DR: Hamas has just agreed to Israel’s ceasefire plan. Nelson hospital’s rebuild has been cut back to save money. The OECD suggests New Zealand break up network monopolies, including in electricity. PM Christopher Luxon’s news conference on a prison expansion announcement last night was his messiest yet.Here’s my top six ...
A homicide in Ponsonby, a manhunt with a killer on the run. The nation’s leader stands before a press conference reassuring a frightened nation that he’ll sort it out, he’ll keep them safe, he’ll build some new prison spaces.Sorry what? There’s a scary dude on the run with a gun ...
Hi,I know it’s been awhile since there’s been any Webworm merch — and today that all changes!Over the last four months, I’ve been working with New Zealand artist Jess Johnson to create a series of t-shirts, caps and stickers that are infused with Webworm DNA — and as of right ...
The OECD’s chief economist yesterday laid it on the line for the new Government: bring the deficit under control or face higher Reserve Bank interest rates for longer. And to bring the deficit under control, she meant not borrowing for tax cuts. But there was more. Without policy changes—introducing a ...
After a hiatus of over four months Selwyn Manning and I finally got it together to re-start the “A View from Afar” podcast series. We shall see how we go but aim to do 2 episodes per month if possible. … Continue reading → ...
In 2008, the UK Parliament passed the Climate Change Act 2008. The law established a system of targets, budgets, and plans, with inbuilt accountability mechanisms; the aim was to break the cycle of empty promises and replace it with actual progress towards emissions reduction. The law was passed with near-universal ...
Buzz from the Beehive Local Water Done Well – let’s be blunt – is a silly name, but the first big initiative to put it into practice has gone done well. This success is reflected in the headline on an RNZ report:District mayors welcome Auckland’s new water deal with ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate ConnectionsA farmworker cleans the solar panels of a solar water pump in the village of Jagadhri, Haryana Country, India. (Photo credit: Prashanth Vishwanathan/ IWMI) Decisions made in India over the next few years will play a key role in global ...
Lindsay Mitchell writes – The Children’s Minister, Karen Chhour, intends to repeal Section 7AA from the Oranga Tamariki Act 1989 because it creates conflict between claimed Crown Treaty obligations and the child’s best interests. In her words, “Oranga Tamariki’s governing principles and its act should be colour ...
Geoffrey Miller writes – The gloves are off. That might seem to be the undertone of surprisingly tough talk from New Zealand’s foreign and trade ministers. Winston Peters, the foreign minister, may be facing legal action after making allegations about former Australian foreign minister Bob Carr on Radio New Zealand. ...
Brian Easton writes – This is about the time that the Treasury will be locking up its economic forecasts to be published in the 2024 Budget Economic and Fiscal Update (BEFU) on budget day, 30 May. I am not privy to what they will be (I will report on them ...
TL;DR:Winston Peters is reported to have won a budget increase for MFAT. David Seymour wanted his Ministry of Regulation to be three times bigger than the Productivity Commission. Simeon Brown is appointing a Crown Monitor to Watercare to protect the Claytons Crown Guarantee he had to give ratings agencies ...
The gloves are off. That might seem to be the undertone of surprisingly tough talk from New Zealand’s foreign and trade ministers. Winston Peters, the foreign minister, may be facing legal action after making allegations about former Australian foreign minister Bob Carr on Radio New Zealand. Carr had made highly ...
I could be a florist'Round the corner from Rye LaneI'll be giving daisies to craziesBut, baby, I'll wrap you up real safe Oh, I can give you flowers At the end of every dayFor the center of your table, a rainbowIn case you have people 'round to stay Depending on ...
TL;DR: The six key events to watch in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy in the week to May 12 include:PM Christopher Luxon is scheduled to hold a post-Cabinet news conference at 4 pm today. Finance Minister Nicola Willis will give a pre-budget speech on Thursday.Parliament sits from Question Time at 2pm on ...
The price of the foreign affairs “reset” is now becoming apparent, with Defence set to get a funding boost in the Budget. Finance Minister Nicola Willis has confirmed that it will be one of the few votes, apart from Health and Education and possibly Police, which will get an increase ...
A listing of 26 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, April 28, 2024 thru Sat, May 4, 2024. Story of the week "It’s straight out of Big Tobacco’s playbook. In fact, research by John Cook and his colleagues ...
Yesterday I received come lovely feedback following my Star Wars themed newsletter. A few people mentioned they’d enjoyed reading the personal part at the beginning.I often begin newsletters with some memories, or general thoughts, before commencing the main topic. This hopefully sets the mood and provides some context in which ...
April 30 was going to be the day we’d be calling Mum from London to wish her a happy birthday. Then it became the day we would be going to St. Paul's at Evensong to remember her. The aim of the cathedral builders was to find a way to make their ...
Rob MacCulloch writes – Can’t remember the last book by a Kiwi author you read? Think the NZ government should spend less on the arts in favor of helping the homeless? If so, as far as Newsroom is concerned, you probably deserve to be called a cultural ignoramus ...
Eric Crampton writes – Grudges are bad. Better to move on. But it can be fun to keep a couple of really trivial ones, so you’re not tempted to have other ones. For example, because of the rootkit fiasco of 2005, no Sony products in our household. ...
A new report warns an estimated third of the adult population have unmet need for health care.Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāHere’s the six key things I learned about Aotaroa’s political economy this week around housing, climate and poverty:Politics - Three opinion polls confirmed support for PM Christopher Luxon ...
Today is May the fourth. Which was just a regular day when my mother took me to see the newly released Star Wars at the Odeon in Rotorua. The queue was right around the corner. Some years later this day became known as Star Wars Day, the date being a ...
Buzz from the Beehive Much more media attention is being paid to something Winston Peters said about former Australian Foreign Minister Bob Carr than to a speech he delivered to the New Zealand China Council. One word is missing from the speech: AUKUS. But AUKUS loomed large in his considerations ...
Is the economy in another long stagnation? If so, why?This is about the time that the Treasury will be locking up its economic forecasts to be published in the 2024 Budget Economic and Fiscal Update (BEFU) on budget day, 30 May. I am not privy to what they will be ...
The annual list of who's been bribing our politicians is out, and journalists will no doubt be poring over it to find the juiciest and dirtiest bribes. The government's fast-track invite list is likely to be a particular focus, and we already know of one company on the list which ...
In the weeks after the October 7 Hamas attacks on Southern Israel I wrote about the possible 2nd, 3rd and even 4th order effects of the conflict. These included new fronts being opened in the West Bank (with Hamas), Golan … Continue reading → ...
Peter Dunne writes – It is one of the oldest truisms that there is never a good time for MPs to get a pay rise. This week’s announcement of pay raises of around 2.8% backdated to last October could hardly have come at a worse time, with the ...
David Farrar writes – Newshub reports: Newshub can reveal a fresh allegation of intimidation against Green MP Julie-Anne Genter. Genter is subject to a disciplinary process for aggressively waving a book in the face of National Minister Matt Doocey in the House – but it’s not the first time ...
The Treasury has published a paper today on the global productivity slowdown and how it is playing out in New Zealand: The productivity slowdown: implications for the Treasury’s forecasts and projections. The Treasury Paper examines recent trends in productivity and the potential drivers of the slowdown. Productivity for the whole economy ...
The National Government plans to cut 390 jobs at ACC, including roles in the areas of prevention of sexual violence, road safety and workplace safety. ...
The Government has been caught in opposition to evidence once again as it looks to usher in tried, tested and failed work seminar obligations for job-seeking beneficiaries. ...
The Green Party is welcoming the announcement by the Minister Responsible for RMA Reform Chris Bishop to approve most of the Wellington City Council’s District Plan recommendations. ...
David Seymour has failed to get the sweeping cuts he wanted to the free and healthy school lunch programme, Labour education spokesperson Jan Tinetti said. ...
Hon Willie Jackson has been invited by the Oxford Union to debate the motion “This House Believes British Museums are not Very British’ on May 23rd. ...
Green Party MP Hūhana Lyndon says her Public Works (Prohibition of Compulsory Acquisition of Māori Land) Amendment Bill is an opportunity to right some past wrongs around the alienation of Māori land. ...
A senior, highly respected King’s Counsel with decades of experience in our law courts, Gary Judd KC, has filed a complaint about compulsory tikanga Māori studies for law students - highlighting the utter depths of absurdity this woke cultural madness has taken our society. The tikanga regulations will compel law ...
The Government needs to be clear with the people of the Nelson Marlborough region about the changes it is considering for the Nelson Hospital rebuild, Labour health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall said. ...
Ministers must front up about which projects it will push through under its Fast Track Approvals legislation, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
The Government is again adding to New Zealand’s growing unemployment, this time cutting jobs at the agencies responsible for urban development and growing much needed housing stock. ...
With Minister Karen Chhour indicating in the House today that she either doesn’t know or care about the frontline cuts she’s making to Oranga Tamariki, we risk seeing more and more of our children falling through the cracks. ...
The Labour Party is saddened to learn of the death of Sir Robert Martin, a globally renowned disability advocate who led the way for disability rights both in New Zealand and internationally. ...
Labour is calling for the Government to urgently rethink its coalition commitment to restart live animal exports, Labour animal welfare spokesperson Rachel Boyack said. ...
Today’s Financial Stability Report has once again highlighted that poverty and deep inequality are political choices - and this Government is choosing to make them worse. ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to do more for our households in most need as unemployment rises and the cost of living crisis endures. ...
Unemployment is on the rise and it’s only going to get worse under this Government, Labour finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds said. Stats NZ figures show the unemployment rate grew to 4.3 percent in the March quarter from 4 percent in the December quarter. “This is the second rise in unemployment ...
The New Zealand Labour Party welcomes the entering into force of the European Union and New Zealand free trade agreement. This agreement opens the door for a huge increase in trade opportunities with a market of 450 million people who are high value discerning consumers of New Zealand goods and ...
The National-led Government continues its fiscal jiggery pokery with its Pharmac announcement today, Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall says. “The government has increased Pharmac funding but conceded it will only make minimal increases in access to medicine”, said Ayesha Verrall “This is far from the bold promises made to fund ...
This afternoon’s interim Waitangi Tribunal report must be taken seriously as it affects our most vulnerable children, Labour children’s spokesperson Willow-Jean Prime. ...
Te Pāti Māori are demanding the New Zealand Government support an international independent investigation into mass graves that have been uncovered at two hospitals on the Gaza strip, following weeks of assault by Israeli troops. Among the 392 bodies that have been recovered, are children and elderly civilians. Many of ...
Our two-tiered system for veterans’ support is out of step with our closest partners, and all parties in Parliament should work together to fix it, Labour veterans’ affairs spokesperson Greg O’Connor said. ...
Stripping two Ministers of their portfolios just six months into the job shows Christopher Luxon’s management style is lacking, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said. ...
Tonight’s court decision to overturn the summons of the Children’s Minister has enabled the Crown to continue making decisions about Māori without evidence, says Te Pāti Māori spokesperson for Children, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “The judicial system has this evening told the nation that this government can do whatever they want when ...
It appears Nicola Willis is about to pull the rug out from under the feet of local communities still dealing with the aftermath of last year’s severe weather, and local councils relying on funding to build back from these disasters. ...
The Government is making short-sighted changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA) that will take away environmental protection in favour of short-term profits, Labour’s environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
Labour welcomes the release of the report into the North Island weather events and looks forward to working with the Government to ensure that New Zealand is as prepared as it can be for the next natural disaster. ...
The Labour Party has called for the New Zealand Government to recognise Palestine, as a material step towards progressing the two-State solution needed to achieve a lasting peace in the region. ...
Some of our country’s most important work, stopping the sexual exploitation of children and violent extremism could go along with staff on the frontline at ports and airports. ...
The Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill will give projects such as new coal mines a ‘get out of jail free’ card to wreak havoc on the environment, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The government's decision to reintroduce Three Strikes is a destructive and ineffective piece of law-making that will only exacerbate an inherently biased and racist criminal justice system, said Te Pāti Māori Justice Spokesperson, Tākuta Ferris, today. During the time Three Strikes was in place in Aotearoa, Māori and Pasifika received ...
Jobseeker beneficiaries who have work obligations must now meet with MSD within two weeks of their benefit starting to determine their next step towards finding a job, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “A key part of the coalition Government’s plan to have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker ...
A new standalone Social Investment Agency will power-up the social investment approach, driving positive change for our most vulnerable New Zealanders, Social Investment Minister Nicola Willis says. “Despite the Government currently investing more than $70 billion every year into social services, we are not seeing the outcomes we want for ...
Check against delivery Good morning. It is a pleasure to be with you to outline the Coalition Government’s approach to our first Budget. Thank you Mark Skelly, President of the Hutt Valley Chamber of Commerce, together with your Board and team, for hosting me. I’d like to acknowledge His Worship ...
Your Excellency Ambassador Meredith, Members of the Diplomatic Corps and Ambassadors from European Union Member States, Ministerial colleagues, Members of Parliament, and other distinguished guests, Thank you everyone for joining us. Ladies and gentlemen - In diplomacy, we often speak of ‘close’ and ‘long-standing’ relations. ...
The Therapeutic Products Act (TPA) will be repealed this year so that a better regime can be put in place to provide New Zealanders safe and timely access to medicines, medical devices and health products, Associate Health Minister Casey Costello announced today. “The medicines and products we are talking about ...
The Minister Responsible for RMA Reform, Chris Bishop, today released his decision on twenty recommendations referred to him by the Wellington City Council relating to its Intensification Planning Instrument, after the Council rejected those recommendations of the Independent Hearings Panel and made alternative recommendations. “Wellington notified its District Plan on ...
Rape Awareness Week (6-10 May) is an important opportunity to acknowledge the continued effort required by government and communities to ensure that all New Zealanders can live free from violence, say Ministers Karen Chhour and Louise Upston. “With 1 in 3 women and 1 in 8 men experiencing sexual violence ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour has today announced that the Government will be delivering a more efficient Healthy School Lunches Programme, saving taxpayers approximately $107 million a year compared to how Labour funded it, by embracing innovation and commercial expertise. “We are delivering on our commitment to treat taxpayers’ money ...
New research on the impacts of extreme weather on coastal marine habitats in Tairāwhiti and Hawke’s Bay will help fishery managers plan for and respond to any future events, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. A report released today on research by Niwa on behalf of Fisheries New Zealand ...
Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Winston Peters will lead a broad political delegation on a five-stop Pacific tour next week to strengthen New Zealand’s engagement with the region. The delegation will visit Solomon Islands, Papua New Guinea, Vanuatu, New Caledonia, and Tuvalu. “New Zealand has deep and ...
There has been a material decline in gas production according to figures released today by the Gas Industry Co. Figures released by the Gas Industry Company show that there was a 12.5 per cent reduction in gas production during 2023, and a 27.8 per cent reduction in gas production in the ...
Defence Minister Judith Collins tonight announced the recipients of the Minister of Defence Awards of Excellence for Industry, saying they all contribute to New Zealanders’ security and wellbeing. “Congratulations to this year’s recipients, whose innovative products and services play a critical role in the delivery of New Zealand’s defence capabilities, ...
Welcome to you all - it is a pleasure to be here this evening.I would like to start by thanking Greg Lowe, Chair of the New Zealand Defence Industry Advisory Council, for co-hosting this reception with me. This evening is about recognising businesses from across New Zealand and overseas who in ...
It is a pleasure to be speaking to you as the Minister for Digitising Government. I would like to thank Akolade for the invitation to address this Summit, and to acknowledge the great effort you are making to grow New Zealand’s digital future. Today, we stand at the cusp of ...
New Zealand is urging both Israel and Hamas to agree to an immediate ceasefire to avoid the further humanitarian catastrophe that military action in Rafah would unleash, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “The immense suffering in Gaza cannot be allowed to worsen further. Both sides have a responsibility to ...
A new online data dashboard released today as part of the Government’s school attendance action plan makes more timely daily attendance data available to the public and parents, says Associate Education Minister David Seymour. The interactive dashboard will be updated once a week to show a national average of how ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced Rosemary Banks will be New Zealand’s next Ambassador to the United States of America. “Our relationship with the United States is crucial for New Zealand in strategic, security and economic terms,” Mr Peters says. “New Zealand and the United States have a ...
The Government is considering creating a new tier of minerals permitting that will make it easier for hobby miners to prospect for gold. “New Zealand was built on gold, it’s in our DNA. Our gold deposits, particularly in regions such as Otago and the West Coast have always attracted fortune-hunters. ...
Minister for Trade Todd McClay today announced that New Zealand and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) will commence negotiations on a free trade agreement (FTA). Minister McClay met with his counterpart UAE Trade Minister Dr Thani bin Ahmed Al Zeyoudi in Dubai, where they announced the launch of negotiations on a ...
New Zealand Sign Language Week is an excellent opportunity for all Kiwis to give the language a go, Disabilities Issues Minister Louise Upston says. This week (May 6 to 12) is New Zealand Sign Language (NZSL) Week. The theme is “an Aotearoa where anyone can sign anywhere” and aims to ...
Six tertiary students have been selected to work on NASA projects in the US through a New Zealand Space Scholarship, Space Minister Judith Collins announced today. “This is a fantastic opportunity for these talented students. They will undertake internships at NASA’s Ames Research Center or its Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), where ...
New Zealanders will be safer because of a $1.9 billion investment in more frontline Corrections officers, more support for offenders to turn away from crime, and more prison capacity, Corrections Minister Mark Mitchell says. “Our Government said we would crack down on crime. We promised to restore law and order, ...
The OECD’s latest report on New Zealand reinforces the importance of bringing Government spending under control, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The OECD conducts country surveys every two years to review its members’ economic policies. The 2024 New Zealand survey was presented in Wellington today by OECD Chief Economist Clare Lombardelli. ...
The Government has delivered on its election promise to provide a financially sustainable model for Auckland under its Local Water Done Well plan. The plan, which has been unanimously endorsed by Auckland Council’s Governing Body, will see Aucklanders avoid the previously projected 25.8 per cent water rates increases while retaining ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters discussed the need for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, and enhanced cooperation in the Pacific with German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock during her first official visit to New Zealand today. "New Zealand and Germany enjoy shared interests and values, including the rule of law, democracy, respect for the international system ...
The Minister Responsible for RMA Reform, Chris Bishop today released his decision on four recommendations referred to him by the Western Bay of Plenty District Council, opening the door to housing growth in the area. The Council’s Plan Change 92 allows more homes to be built in existing and new ...
Thank you, John McKinnon and the New Zealand China Council for the invitation to speak to you today. Thank you too, all members of the China Council. Your effort has played an essential role in helping to build, shape, and grow a balanced and resilient relationship between our two ...
The Government is modernising insurance law to better protect Kiwis and provide security in the event of a disaster, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly announced today. “These reforms are long overdue. New Zealand’s insurance law is complicated and dated, some of which is more than 100 years old. ...
The coalition Government is refreshing its approach to supporting pay equity claims as time-limited funding for the Pay Equity Taskforce comes to an end, Public Service Minister Nicola Willis says. “Three years ago, the then-government introduced changes to the Equal Pay Act to support pay equity bargaining. The changes were ...
Structured literacy will change the way New Zealand children learn to read - improving achievement and setting students up for success, Education Minister Erica Stanford says. “Being able to read and write is a fundamental life skill that too many young people are missing out on. Recent data shows that ...
Trade Minister Todd McClay says Canada’s refusal to comply in full with a CPTPP trade dispute ruling in our favour over dairy trade is cynical and New Zealand has no intention of backing down. Mr McClay said he has asked for urgent legal advice in respect of our ‘next move’ ...
The rights of our children and young people will be enhanced by changes the coalition Government will make to strengthen oversight of the Oranga Tamariki system, including restoring a single Children’s Commissioner. “The Government is committed to delivering better public services that care for our most at-risk young people and ...
The Government is making it easier for minor changes to be made to a building consent so building a home is easier and more affordable, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “The coalition Government is focused on making it easier and cheaper to build homes so we can ...
New Zealand lost a true legend when internationally renowned disability advocate Sir Robert Martin (KNZM) passed away at his home in Whanganui last night, Disabilities Issues Minister Louise Upston says. “Our Government’s thoughts are with his wife Lynda, family and community, those he has worked with, the disability community in ...
Good evening – Before discussing the challenges and opportunities facing New Zealand’s foreign policy, we’d like to first acknowledge the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. You have contributed to debates about New Zealand foreign policy over a long period of time, and we thank you for hosting us. ...
From today, passengers travelling internationally from Auckland Airport will be able to keep laptops and liquids in their carry-on bags for security screening thanks to new technology, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Creating a more efficient and seamless travel experience is important for holidaymakers and businesses, enabling faster movement through ...
People with an interest in the health of Northland’s marine ecosystems are invited to a public meeting to discuss how to deal with kina barrens, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones will lead the discussion, which will take place on Friday, 10 May, at Awanui Hotel in ...
Kiwi exporters are $100 million better off today with the NZ EU FTA entering into force says Trade Minister Todd McClay. “This is all part of our plan to grow the economy. New Zealand's prosperity depends on international trade, making up 60 per cent of the country’s total economic activity. ...
There are heartening signs that the extractive sector is once again becoming an attractive prospect for investors and a source of economic prosperity for New Zealand, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. “The beginnings of a resurgence in extractive industries are apparent in media reports of the sector in the past ...
The return of the historic Ō-Rākau battle site to the descendants of those who fought there moved one step closer today with the first reading of Te Pire mō Ō-Rākau, Te Pae o Maumahara / The Ō-Rākau Remembrance Bill. The Bill will entrust the 9.7-hectare battle site, five kilometres west ...
Writer Rebecca K Reilly breaks down the national book awards. What are the Ockhams?The Ockham New Zealand Book Awards are our annual national awards for books published for adults, and have existed in this form since 2016. There are four categories: Fiction, Poetry, General Non-fiction and Illustrated Non-fiction. There ...
Wellington City Council should keep its 34% ownership share in Wellington International Airport, argue Unions Wellington spokespeople Finn Cordwell and Ashok Jacob. Insanity, as the saying goes, is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Wellington City Council (WCC) is yet again proposing to dispose ...
New Zealand’s largest book publisher has undergone drastic changes this week, leaving its future role in local publishing uncertain. Two of the most recognisable local publishers in New Zealand are among those restructured out of Penguin Random House, it was announced this week. Head of publishing Claire Murdoch will leave ...
The Black Ferns Sevens appeared to be a mile behind Australia at the halfway point of the 2023-24 SVNS international circuit. Winless in three tournaments, a cup quarter-final exit in Perth was one of their worst results. To add insult to injury, talismanic skipper Sarah Hirini had been ruled out ...
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I am bemused by Demi Levato buying into the ridiculous effort that some are making to reject gender by substituting in the place of 'he/she/his/her' the plural versions 'they, them, their' etc.
The last time this happened was the 'Royal We', when a powerful monarch like Louis XIV of France imposed their opinions on the rest of their courts by saying things like 'We are not amused.' Meaning, 'Don't anyone here dare laugh!' If you laughed before or louder than Louis XIV, you were likely to be exiled from his court, and so stricken from ranks of the nobility.
Grammatically, it is a matter of linguistic accident that English personal pronouns are gendered in the singular, but no longer in the plural. In French, for example, 'they' is still gendered in the plural: 'ils' for the boysies, and 'elles' for the girlsies. How will Demi get on if she tries to speak French?
There is a precedent in English where a singular noun like 'everybody' actually means 'all of us/them', so has a plural aspect to it.
We say 'Everybody left their umbrellas in the hall.' It is too complicated to say 'Everyone left his/her umbrella…' But that is the limit.
To extend this practice to the point where 'they' are supposed to be one single person, either or neither male or female; is a truly futile endeavour, and, to my mind, the height of folly.
If the gender-sensitive woke think this is a practicable measure, I think they are dreaming.
Normal people may not worry too much about what your gender is, but their natural speech patterns will keep singular separate from plural.
I think Demi's efforts are doomed to failure. People will not tolerate confusion of plural/singular.
Demi needs to find another gender-neutral singular pronoun.
Edit – I meant to write 'a powerful monarch like Louis XIV of France or Queen Victoria' but omitted Queen Victoria. Damn – I was not trying to present Louis XIV as of dubious gender… Try 'powerful monarchs like Louis XIV..'
But that example shows why Demi's idea it will not work. People will want to correct singular/plural errors.
Me: my doctor is great
You: what is their name?
we already use their as singular routinely, in part to address inherent sexism eg assuming doctors are make.
Their is way so simpler than some of the alternatives.
I do find a fair amount of the NB stuff performative and will be interested to see how many people still ID this way in ten or twenty years. For those for whom it’s more genuine or a tool to manage dysphoria or mental/social distress I think empathy and consideration is warranted. There are political boundaries to be debated too (still haven’t seen a good rationale for why NB males should have access to women’s spaces).
Maybe I am an old fogey, but I would instinctively avoid the 'their' thing by asking,
"Who is it?" (Or, "Who is your Doctor?")
Grammatically, 'their' is used as an easy way of avoiding the burden of having to say 'his/her'. This was so long before any thoughts of sexism, and as I said above, it usually went with singular nouns indicating a group of people, such as 'everybody.'
I agree that empathy and consideration are warranted, but I fear that only a minority of the population will take heed of that. The vast hordes will want to stay with his/ her where it is singular, and keep 'their' for the plural.
In the very long term, it is possible that a different English language will emerge, where 'he' and 'she' will have disappeared just as 'thou' and 'ye' have already died out.
But I don't think this woke thing of Demi's is going to work in the short term.
Gendered pronouns don't need to disappear. And you've figured out how to avoid gender assumptions for people in different roles.
I reckon the broad acceptance of a gender-neutral singular pronoun will come sooner than you think. For one thing, loads of Demi Lovato fans will now change their linguistic habits. Just as fans of Elliot Page updated their language. And people who aren't fans might not… but then, after a brief flurry of activity, non-fans will be discussing Demi Lovato just as much as before the announcement.
Funny how if it was a Maori place-name that was being misspelled or mispronounced according to traditional usage – there'd be all the usual suspects yelling 'racist' at anyone who dared demure.
But when it comes to butchering a fundamental feature of English – i.e the use of gendered cases – then suddenly you're all for it.
"Butchering"? Overstatement, much?
As opposed to deliberately mis-spelling an existing term as a careless or intended insult, the search for a gender-neutral pronoun in the singular is just another case of language being expanded to deal with concepts it wasn't previously equipped to address.
"Computers" are now machines on a desk, rather than people in another room hand-calculating complex math problems.
We have "robots" because "automatons" or "mechanical Turks" didn't quite denote the same thing.
We now have a multitude of terms for different atypical behaviours or neurological conditions, rather than assuming demonic possession or a uterus taking a walkabout through the body.
Heck, if you told Elizabeth1 that a "germ" was a microscopic monocellular organism, get ready for a demand to see a dictionar- oh, whoops, out of luck there, too.
Nope, you're right, anything that can't be clearly expressed in the patois of Chaucer is fucking abysmal.
Thanks McFlock, esp that last bit, ha!
The observable fact that we're not having this conversation in the 'patois of Chaucer' is sufficient evidence that languages do evolve over time. And that they might do so in an unconscious, organic fashion is entirely legitimate.
But then you get that social engineering, ideological butchering that Orwell wrote so eloquently about. Fucking abysmal indeed.
"Orwellian" now?
Newspeak was about subtracting from the lexicon's ability to communicate concepts, not adding to it. Your analogy is double-plus fail.
Newspeak was about subtracting from the lexicon's ability to communicate concepts, not adding to it.
So how does subtracting out of the language the ineradicable distinction between men and women 'add' to anything?
'Ineradicable'? Have you not been following the last few years at least?
I generally keep out of fundamentalist disputes because the true believers only want to 'educate' you about their convictions.
You’re welcome to invent as many new categories for the endless range of human sexual variation as you like – but equally it’s none of your business if a large majority of us continue to use gendered terms as we see fit for our own lives and experience.
'Ineradicable' sounds pretty fundamentalist from here. Gender is not like geology.
In humans are indisputably male and female for all practical purposes. Biological ambiguity affects a very small minority in the order of 1 in a 1000.
You're welcome to all the gender variation you like – it's not something I'm interested in at all.
Then I suggest you do not talk about a "distinction between men and women" when you really mean males and females.
Like I said, you're welcome to whatever gender definitions you like, just keep your nose out of mine please.
Demi Lovato isn't outlawing gendered pronouns. Just choosing not to be referred to by them. Because they feel gendered pronouns don't adequately describe them. The new use of an existing term adds a new concept that can be expressed by the English language.
You can continue to ask to be referred to in whatever damned way you want, it doesn't subtract anything from you.
Yeah, English has a long history of being adapted and added to by its users. English is kind of founded on that ease of adaptability, borrowing and invention.
So the search for new words in English by English users to describe themselves and the things around them is entirely legitimate. It has been going on for centuries.
I believe Te Reo also borrows to describe things not of the Maori world. But it is up to Maori to administer their language, not for non-Maori to demand to be able to change it for their own convenience. That is colonial (and, by definition, racist) thinking.
So, the comment above yours shows ignorance and intolerance on two levels: a disregard for Maori taonga and the strong-arm behaviour associated with that, and also a disregard for people wanting to use their own language to help them describe their world.
I believe the motive for the attack was the mostly the latter, as some folk get mighty triggered by being asked to accept non-binary people.
And, it is not "woke" to criticise ignorant and intolerant views. Rather, it is vitally important for social and cultural growth.
Mechanical Turk? First thought, curiosity; second that must be racist, before I even know what it means. We are becoming hyper-sensitive, not just a bit more.
google is your friend.
I don't want to look up something in every comment I read Sacha. I do prefer to spend time on Google looking at factual stuff to back up my comments, or add a view to them, or see what is going on elsewhere. If I occasionally present trivia I think that is a healthy thing now and then. Looking up mechanical Turk is not trivia I can be bothered with.
I'm off in a moment to see what person, group was behind Hitler. It seems that everything has money behind it so he probably had shadow backers letting the madman do the dirty work. There is a lot that we don't know about everything important. So MT will have to wait.
Yet you felt compelled to say that the term must be racist. Why not just say nothing when you cannot be bothered researching the basics.
I’ll take them/they/their as singular over having to use these:
[image resized]
True – I can't see these offerings being taken up broadly, either.
Earlier on, I wondered if the fairly logical 'Ms' would take on for women who wished to be neither 'Miss' nor 'Mrs.' Mzz is not a natural sound for an English monosyllable, but the word is now accepted.
'Ms' however was a new word, not an irrational subversion of already well-defined words.
General usage will eventually determine what becomes accepted, so time will tell. Personally, I suspect that the majority of speakers will fail to adopt this 'they, their/ singular thing, and that it will not last long.
Must be lovely to be privileged enough to demand others accept one's own opinion of oneself as fact.
If Demi wants to do this, up to them.
I just don’t want it imposed on me. I am a biological female. My title is Ms. And I want places in women’s sport for biological females. I also was change rooms etc for biological females.
i don’t agree that trans women are women. I respect their right to identify as a different gender. And have always been respectful towards the very small number of trans people I have come across.
Remember that pushback on "Ms", now it's pretty much a non issue, though there's probably still people who refuse to acknowledge it.
"I don't agree Trans Women are Woman" doesn't sound very respectful to me, and I'm sure no-one is imposing anything on you. Your comment made me remember Bob the Builder from Tauranga, "I don't mind the Gays, as long as they don't shove it down my throat" As a biological Male I will never understand how it feels to be Trans but damn it I will try to not make judgment's on them and will treat them in a manner I would wish to be treated. However, I too am struggling with the idea of our Trans Athlete competing in the Womans Weightlifting but I don't know enough about the science to know if they have an un-natural advantage.
Red-blooded – I'm sure no-one is imposing anything on you.
You must live in a tight little world if you don't understand the way that demands for new categories of being, are being felt by people who want to maintain humanity in its ancient and recognisable form and groups. And make allowances and tolerances for the few people who are different. Not have it regarded as a social fashion, like a re-run of 1960's anything goes behaviour.
Actually I do live in a tight little world thanks greywarshark partly because of "people who want to maintain humanity in its ancient and recognisable form and groups". With maturity I am reveling in my grumpy old man status and as one of the few I no longer see the need to tolerate a majority, incapable of non-judgement and inclusivity. How wonderful it must be for you in your security of being in the majority that can relegate those of us who aren't, to being an "anything goes, social fashion"
Freemasons, for example
Cheap slur solkta. When one turns an attempt to seriously discuss a contentious matter into a cheap joke rather than face up to being wrong it shows the limit to rationality in the matter.l
What slur? You are not even replying to me nor am i in this line of discussion. Pull your head in.
We have been mistaken for one another before.
cmon
It helps to understand that trans women are biologically male, it’s their internal sense of themselves as a woman that makes them trans.
TWAW is a slogan, and a mantra, that is routinely used to promote trans activist politics including propaganda and suppression of debate in addition to its more even handed uses. There are people being fired, banned, deplatfirmed, harassed, abused and ostracised for saying that trans women are male or men. Whether one agrees with either side, there is no doubt that pressure and imposition is great. I’ve not seen anything like it in decades of politics.
Even people offering a compromise of trans women are trans women are being told to stfu in the worst of ways (and tellingly, it’s women saying this that get treated the worst and the left is sanctioning that).
Thanks Weka, I literally have no Skin in the Game but how does it hurt a Biological Woman if a Trans Woman wants to consider themselves Women?
Or maybe I should just bow out.
I just wish people would live and let live.
That’s actually a really useful question.
by and large most liberal people across the spectrum have had no problem with trans women considering themselves women. Including feminists. The law was adjusted to support trans people via a legal fiction (that sex can be changed). But there were limits on this eg in the UK the law allows exclusion of trans women where that is warranted due to women’s rights. Think rape crisis centres.
the problem we have now is that there is a fast and largely undebated social engineering going on that creates a direct conflict between the rights of women and trans women. Should a woman’s refuge be obliged to house pre surgical transition TW (ie males who self indentify as women) with women who have been raped and beaten by males? Or should society continue to allow women to have separate spaces and for society to provide TW with refuges?
that’s one example, there are many others that illustrate a current conflict of rights between two groups.
Thanks again Weka, it is complicated indeed. In my limited knowledge I have been jumping to the defense of Trans Woman, assuming them to be Transitioned (as in Post Surgical Transition).
Having witnessed a friends Grandson, virtually from birth, identify as female and is now transitioning, I hail her bravery and respect her enough to now think of her as a woman , well young lady in this case and if she articulates to me a preference of pronouns etc I will attempt to alter my previously comfortable him/her she/he narrative. Have a great day.
Agree it is complex. And many people not involved in the debate likewise assume TW are fully transitioned. Most TW aren’t. There are social, political and legislative changes happening that don’t take that into account.
One reason why it matters is that the NZ govt wants to introduce self ID legislation this year to make it easier for trans people to socially transition. This seems laudable but there’s a huge conflict with women’s rights as self id allows any man to say he is a woman. This is already happening in many places in the world and discussion has been actively and forcefully suppressed. That alone should be raising alarm bells.
Unfortunately individual trans people like your friend are going to get caught in the cross fire. And it remains to be seen if women will get to retain their sex based rights.
This of course is part of the problem.
We are human mammals and mammals have two sexes, man and women.
I understand that a very small minority of people don’t identify with their birth sex and they like Demi, are entitled to make this public and to ask to be treated respectively for it.
to you I might hsve sounded like Bob the Builder, but I didn’t use his phrase, so no not really.
we fought hard for Ms so a women’s title didn’t indicate her marital status. Have no problem with with other or some such being added when titles asked for.
we agree on women’s sport. University of Otago released something recently that shows trans women have an unfair advantage over biological women. Of course they do. They have greater muscle mass (even if they have transitioned) they have testosterone and likely other hormones and they have advantages of height and statute.
Absolutely Anker, you're allowed to disagree with anything you like, it is not connected to respectfulness (and before anyone else goes on about PC gone mad or Wokeness etc, don't bother with the latest Right Wing Lazy Slur, that's not aimed at you Anker) but you were the one who was, on more than one instance, highlighting how respectful you are which I simply thought denying a person their right to be who they are didn't seem very respectful. Agree to disagree. As intelligent Mammals we have found ways to correct other irregularities, Heart Defects, Siamese Twins, Cleft Palete, you name it. So if a Trans person has bravely gone through all that is required to be the Gender they assimilate to I will happily refer to them as they, or he, or she, whatever they prefer. I'm sorry but the "I don't want it imposed on me" was what reminded me of the "don't shove it down my throat" angle I found that humorous, no harm meant. Some of my best friends are …. etc (pick your minority.) They're all a bit red rag to a Bull to this old fella. But yeah, very happy to agree on the need for sporting competitions to be a test between people with equal chances and as you say I'm sure muscle mass, memory and testosterone can be considered making the playing field unequal.
interestingly enough none of these trans women have said to me “I am a real woman and you have to agree with me”. If they did out of politeness, I would probably fudge it.
however the situation that is problematic is the activists, many of whom aren’t trans, stating “trans women are real women” who then require that I accept or concur with this statement, else it means I am transphobic. I don’t agree with this statement. To me it is anti science and I believe the acceptance of this statement erodes biological females identity and their sex based rights. I believe shutting down people through intimidation, which is happening in many countries is wrong, and I will stand up for my right to voice my opinion, especially when it is based on objective science.
btw I was told on this website by McFlook that I was being hostile to trans people because I described the statement trans women are real women as a mantra. But the dictionary definition of mantra is a statement or slogan that is often repeated. So how that is a hostile thing to say is beyond me. So I am not being respectful if I state my opinion based on science and I am hostile if I use the word mantra.
bring it on guys. Your attempts to paint me in this way only serve to illustrate my point that if women question trans ideology, they are cast in a negative light
Just because you wouldn't say what you say here to a trans woman face to face does not mean that you are being respectful, only phoney.
Yes I suppose fudging it could be seen as being phoney when someone asks you a question and you think the answer could cause hurt. some would say it was well intentioned kindness or good manners even.
Personally I think everyone does this at times, ie fudges the truth when you think the truth will cause hurt. But maybe you have never done that.
very aware of the complaints against me during this debate. Phoney, disrespectful and hostile! Goodness me. Luckily I don’t agree with them, so it doesn’t bother me.
Saying things anonymously in a public forum hurts people too. But easier that's true.
Unresolved fears cause the strangest behaviours.
Why can't one say either anonymously or under a pseudo or real name the truth about something important to them and society though it is unpopular; but resile from saying it to a 'trans woman' face to face? It isn't phoney, it is just respectful to the individual. Why is that not plain to you solkta? Did your mother not teach you any manners, courtesy.
It is unpleasant being harassed by people who have something against you personally or your type – just getting a stare when there is nothing unusual about your appearance, registers. But saying it somewhere else to a group or family how you feel is quite reasonable.
There were some images taken by a Muslim woman of how someone had abused her and thrown things at her, and she said it had happened a number of times before. The attacker seemed mentally unwell in behaviour and aggression. The Muslim woman did not care for this face to face behaviour at all.
Just as much as someone might not care at all for online speech that targets and hurts them.
As for little familial, social, or workplace support groups to incubate bigotry with none of the 'other' around, well, it's surprising how long they can keep the old hatreds as an undercurrent in a community. But there are too many hot mics around these days to keep it bubbling to the surface, imo.
Oh yes I see what you mean. The spiritual origins of the word. But in terms of that a mantra held special powers.
nut I don’t believe that trans women are real women has no meaning nor do I think it has special spiritual powers. I think the phrase has meaning for those who agree with it. I just don’t agree with it.
not being a very spiritual person, when I think of the word mantra, I think of it used in psychology to help people build self esteem eg “I am a good person”. I think I mentioned that before. But to be honest, I can’t see the spiritual or the psychological meaning being hostile. Just my view
[typo fixed in e-mail address]
That is an affirmation not a mantra.
"I am a good person" has an explicit and direct meaning.
Mantra are much more about the vibe of the collected words and sounds.
"Here we go, here we go, here we go" is an expression of collective expectation that gets its power from a crowd of people repeating it, not from the meaning of the words (half the time the "we" aren't going anywhere).
"totality of the universe/jewel/sacred lotus/enlightenment" – well, one could meditate upon that for ages, and the chant helps, but it's a bit of a semantic word salad with a literal translation.
"Trans women are women" is a clear statement with an explicit meaning one can accept or reject. One person can state it once, or a crowd can chant it repeatedly. It's not a "mantra".
Are you saying McFlook that I am targeting trans people?
weird because someone who identifies as queer on this site told me they had the first discussion on this site (with me) that didn’t go into an argument
Dunno about deliberately targeting. But I said "targets and hurts".
Are you saying McFlook that I am targeting trans people?
weird because someone who identifies as queer on this site told me they had the first discussion on this site (with me) that didn’t go into an argument
You know? That you can't even write down someone's user name correctly, to me, sort of draws a big fat disqualifying line through any comment you make.
As a site meant for robust debate, it's far too puerile to be taken seriously, so maybe do better?
Once could just be a typo.
Or auto-correct …
In a different language.
Actually, I type-write in more than one language and when I don’t change the language setting/preference, it can be a real pain. Such is life for someone who’s (almost) bi-lingual. Some devices seem to remember everything I’ve ever typed in 🙁
As someone who sees behind the TS curtain, so to speak, I’d say that Anker does somewhat struggle with the technology and commenting here. I believe they’re trying hard so please don’t be too harsh in your assumptions and judgements.
I've consciously done it in the past, and though it's a cheap and easy laugh, I made a decision to stop it – Let your arguments and words do the put downs, and leave the brain dead comedy to morning radio hosts, who seem to excel at it.
lol @ dimcognitwito
I’m an open book 😉
Ha, I always imagined you as a readers digest in a dentist's waiting room.
Talking of open books, I haven't seen much of Thornton recently. What's up – Youtube run out of confirmation bias videos?
Love the music too.
'I Am Joe's Spleen'
As someone who dabbles in songwriting I can appreciate a tooth pulling soundtrack lol
More like
Oooh what goes on behind the curtain? Sounds a bit salacious to me. 😉
You’d be most disappointed! Then again, a dirty mind is a joy forever
The sacrificial offerings do sound a bit interesting.
It’s informed consent so pretty legal.
Thanks Incognito. That meant a lot. Because it is true and the mis/spelling of McFlock name was an error. My apologies McFlock. I do struggle with technology, spelling and eyesight and I am often aware that I make typos on the Standard.
I don’t really go in for cheap shots like that and I do my best to play the ball not the person.
my experience on this thread is that is not what others are doing with me.
accused of disrespect, being like bob the builder, being a phoney, hostility, having a crap dictionary and IMO people getting very pedantic about the word mantra to try and back up the claim that I was being hostile.
I am here to assert my opinion and that’s what I did. I realised that some might not like my opinion, or want to read my opinion, because I made a typo with someone’s name.
I never thought too much about trans issues although saw a very moving and compassionate doco in the 80s about a trans woman. So I understood their suffering.
what I am against is debate being shut down, seeing other women, often elderly people who fought hard for homosexual and women’s rights, being excluded, having their views shut down, being trespassed from Pride, having the police called on them, mainly because they won’t repeat the statement trans women are real women. They merely want to debate the issue and preserve our sex based rights.
I do not accept the gender ideology trumps biological sex.
But again thanks incognito. I did appreciate you saying that about me and technology even though it exposes some inadequacy in me!
I don't always agree with you as you know Anker, but I do agree with you that gender ideology does not trump biological sex. That does not mean I support the abuse and violence meted out to trans persons. It should be treated with the same seriousness as abuse and violence towards anyone else, but I fear it often isn't. It's the… well you asked for it mentality at play.
And don't give up. In the end, honesty always wins the day.
For the record Anker, no-one accused you of being like Bob the Builder, I noted your comment "I just don’t want it imposed on me" reminded me of a comment he had made. (He, by the way, as you stated you didn't know who he was, was a National Party Member of Parliament from Tauranga yonks ago)
You came in as the provocateur with the statement "i don’t agree that trans women are women" so when some of us disagree with your statement, it's a bit rich to be pulling the Victim Card.
We are ALL entitled to our opinions.
If you weren’t saying Anker’s view is like Bob the Builder’s what was the point of the comparison?
My point was simply stating her comment reminded me of someone else's comment. It's no more complicated than that. Please try not to read between my lines or put words on my mouth. I am quite capable of screwing up my own comments without others making stuff up.
I really don't understand how you can't see that someone can't be part of the LGBT community while throwing one of those groups under the proverbial bus.
So it’s like a club with membership rules?
The community that’s telling lesbians that sexual preference is bigotry and they should learn how to like dick so they can date trans women.
Everyone throwing everyone under the bus at this point.
Seems a fair stretch from someone saying that the term 'women' includes more people to insisting you have to be intimate with any of them. Some very confused thinking going on.
Indeed, but this is what is happening. Lesbian dating apps include trans women and lesbians are called bigots or banned if they say they want to date only women. This has been building fir a long time. It will get more well known now that the issue is starting to affect gay men.
Yes I think it is best those women leave LBGTQ.
can you explain what you mean by throwing one of those groups under the bus?
Again it is the shut down of the debate I object to, and the brutality with which some of those women who are progressive by nature have been treated. They were there first ie many of them are elderly and have fought hard for women’s and homosexual rights. Not that that is good reason for other groups to go.
but it seems if you don’t accept trans ideology, then you are silenced and excluded in vicious and sometimes petty and childish ways.
I am not a member of LBGT , but my advice would be to these women would be get out and form your own organisation.
[typo fixed in e-mail address]
Mod note for you 🙂
So it’s like a club with membership rules?
When it comes to belonging to specific groups or using designated LGBTQ spaces yes. When i was at uni i spent time hanging out in the LGBTQ space provided by the student union (i'm bi). This space was there to provide a safe place for all LGBTQ individuals and attitudes presented by Anker would not have been tolerated there.
Is it ok for women to have their own spaces with the rules being biologically female?
The community that’s telling lesbians that sexual preference is bigotry
I don't know of any LGBTQ groups making statements like that. I don't personally know any individuals who have said or would likely say or think that.
So your ok with lesbian only spaces that exclude trans women?
Those would be a L space not a LGBTQ space. Anker was complaining about Pride.
Sure, but that doesn’t answer my question and its an important one.
if lesbians who want spaces that are female only, should they be allowed them? Should such a group be allowed at Pride if they say nothing at all about gender id?
If lesbian feminists (with what used to be called a 'radical' position about interacting with men) want spaces that exclude transpeople, it would be good if they own that clearly with their words.
Call it 'FemaleSpace' rather than WomenSpace' perhaps.
Just don't expect that associating aggression with penises will do anything about lesbian intimate partner violence, for example.
Lesbians don’t want to exclude trans people they want spaces separate from *males. Do you see the difference?
women and lesbians are being prevented from using women centred language. Because some people don’t want women having their own spaces. And ‘lesbian’ IS a word that is already women centred.
not sure what your penis/aggression comment is about. Obviously a huge part of lesbian culture has nothing whatsoever to do with penises, and I doubt politicised lesbians need to have explained to them the various issues around domestic violence.
honestly Sacha you seem largely unaware of what is going on in this culture war.
You might want to look at how you got from “lesbians want female space separate from trans women” to “lesbians want to exclude trans people”.
@weka
Excluding trans woman from a lesbian group is making a statement about gender id, obviously.
solkta, you having avoiding clarifying despite multiple opportunities, I will conclude that you support spaces and boundaries for queer people but deny them for lesbians and other women who aren’t queer. Or something.
A functioning command of the English language.
In English trans women is not equivalent to trans people.
I hardly ever see lesbians saying they want to exclude trans people.
@Anker
They were there first ie many of them are elderly and have fought hard for women’s and homosexual rights.
No they weren't "here first". Trans activists have been around as long as any.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmen_Rupe
@Weka @2.54pm but under my post @12.31pm
You have been trying really hard to put words in my mouth and i really don't appreciate it. You have been behaving like RL.
All i have been saying is that LGBTQ spaces are for all LGBTQ people. If L people want to have a separate space then that space can't be within LGBTQ space, ie Pride.
Also, inserting your posts out of time sequence is making all this hard to follow. As these aren't moderation notes this seems unfair.
You’re welcome!
As an aside, but related to this, there appears to be a cynical undercurrent flowing through TS. Although cynicism/scepticism has its place, especially when being vigilant and holding people in power (e.g. politicians) to account, it can and does spill over into the debate here on TS between ‘ordinary’ people who generally mean well and comment here in good faith. In my opinion, this has an overall negative impact on the discourse here.
Your dictionary is a joke. Maybe try one with a few more definitions of the word. With particular attention paid to the meaning of the sounds "often repeated".
Me Flook….. dictionary definition of mantra…..
cambridge dictionary “a word or phrase often repeated and that expresses something that people believe”
you will need to quote me what your dictionary says.
I have never heard it used without a positive association.
but my list is growing
I am
hostile
disrespectful
a phoney
like Bob the builder (whoever he is)
and my dictionary is a joke!
Also in Cambridge, funnily enough. Top entry. Intrigued your copy only has one definition under the word.
Calling an earnest belief a "mantra" suggests no meaning behind the sound, the only benefit is from repetition.
Often licked, never beaten.
I guess we'll soon be speaking of pluralists and singularities..
Physicists already have the second one via their social engineering in the mid20C. Apparently the rules mean that it can't be used for anything else.
What rules when feelings reign?
I am sure somebody else must have already coined the phrase: ‘Anarchy rules’, or ‘Anarchy reigns’…
A stake in the hearts of etymologists.
Bloody bourgeois lot!
Snob mob.
And a pin for the entomologists.
We need more of those now we’re all socialists with a hive mind following orders from the Queen.
sweet