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Daily review 30/07/2020

Written By: - Date published: 5:30 pm, July 30th, 2020 - 144 comments
Categories: Daily review - Tags:

Daily review is also your post.

This provides Standardistas the opportunity to review events of the day.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Don’t forget to be kind to each other …

144 comments on “Daily review 30/07/2020 ”

  1. Robert Guyton 1

    Jacqui Dean – Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear (as the disgraced Keeping Stock was want to say)

  2. PaddyOT 2

    Sir Bill's economic policy looks like he has read the IMF reports for one, then deleted the solutions of IMF and written his own.

    Let it fail policy and advised " businesses to hoard some cash," .

    “Get ready for a long haul.”

    English said , " “capital and labour” had to move from tourism and some other sectors to those that might grow, such as “digitally oriented activities” .

    “That means businesses failures,” he said.

    He advised against the Government trying to intervene too much in that transition.

    “Some of it is the Government just keeping out of the way,” he said.

    English gives acknowledgment of similarities to US, soaring stock market( billions) but high unemployment- compared- NZ strong rising economic indicators ( activity back at pre covid levels.Treasury) yet unemployment still rising.

    Is the causation due to further inducing Corporations to hoard?

    An example hence would be Tower Insurance during lockdown announcing a 6 month profit of $12M dollars, profit up from 2019.
    Then Tower announces at the same time the sacking of 108 employers to further save another $3M for profit.

    • Muttonbird 2.1

      Bingles had his turn. Needs to shut up now and let the next generation get on with it.

      • PaddyOT 2.1.1

        They are. Paula's farewell speech is their next policy….

        I did this and I did that but we never really finished that ..but you know the green and white papers… and Billy's social Investment modèls….fixing up abused kids and peeeeple are all a work in progress, you know eeeh ?

    • Sacha 2.2

      Link, Paddy?

      • PaddyOT 2.2.1

        Just saw this with the post lag time.

        Parody, not a quote hence no speech marks.

        Valedictory speeches are all subsequently printed after speeches, including actions such as having tissues, on Hansard at https://www.parliament.nz .

        You use the database search on Hansard.

        • weka 2.2.2.1

          Please provide a link with the post next time.

          • PaddyOT 2.2.2.1.1

            This will take a 10 minute lag to post.

            A link for what weka? For writing one's own words ?? I don't get your adding a wagging finger ? I have no idea who or what the reference to Morrisey is.

            You know what weka? I've been around TS for some years. I have read post after post unreferenced including what may be deemed liabilous and or containing a range of prejudiced "……ism" s. No wagging fingers there ! Yet in one way or another with even the targetting by pernicious comments, I get a group of minions who dash in like a school yard brawl to support the blanking.

            However, reminded the other day that I should remember my place, by unclever words from a superior like " for us regular posters" . So either we’re encouraging a diverse democracy or can keep TS as an echo chamber.

            Serious question. What reference , weka, please state; and who is Morrisey?

            • weka 2.2.2.1.1.1

              You used actual quotes in your first comment. Yes, you have to provide a link if that's where you got the quotes from.

              English said , " “capital and labour” had to move from tourism and some other sectors to those that might grow, such as “digitally oriented activities” .

              you took that from the article that you eventually linked to. I'm asking you to link in the same comment next time.

              And now that you've brought my attention to it, that whole bit in italics is lifted straight from the article, not just the bits in quotation marks. When you were asked for a link, you said it was parody and not quotes, and then referenced Hansard. But they're not your own words.

              So, next time, please link, and please make it clear which are your words and which are someone else's. If you want to write parody, you will have to use your own words not the words of an offsite journalist.

        • Sacha 2.2.2.2

          Morrisey is another poster fond of artful transcripts. And yes, the link to the thing you were satirising is helpful. Otherwise how are the rest of us meant to have a clue what you are on about?

          • PaddyOT 2.2.2.2.1

            So to be a Standardista one has to fit the mould and one must write in a conformed manner?

            Zàijiàn, zhù nǐ chéng gōng.

            Goodbye and go well in your endeavours

            • Sacha 2.2.2.2.1.1

              Eh? Supplying a link is hardly a big ask. Grow up.

              • bwaghorn

                You are a link demanding bore . Time and technical problems stops some of us

                • Incognito

                  no

                  • bwaghorn

                    Eeerch, every other day the link monitor is hassling someone .

                    Sacha where you a parking warden in a past life?

                • weka

                  Paddy quoted, so he already had the page open. If quoting there has to be a link.

                  There's enough leeway here for tech and time issues, people can make that clear, but I don't think that was the problem here 😉

                  • greywarshark

                    Morrissey. About – "You know what weka? I've been around TS for some years. I have read post after post…I have no idea who or what the reference to Morrisey is. " Paddy Oh dear said this. I wondered how anyone could be a frequent visitor and not know about Morris[s]ey.

                    My conclusion is that this is Morrissey or his doppelganger. It seems his style.

                    And other commenters; if you are paraphrasing or putting your interpretation of the meaning behind the words – say so, 'This is how her farewell speech sounded to me' etc. and you try to remember where you saw/heard the original event. It helps us all to get a picture of what is going on to know if you heard it in the local toffs club, or at a white supremacist rally, or at the pub after downing x? beers.

                • Sacha

                  If you can't cope with the basics of online discussion, I recommend talkback radio.

  3. gsays 3

    Wow!

    I thought Daily Review would be boiling, what with valedictory speeches, dire polls for the Nats, the very eloquent grieving Mother giving her side of fleeing Hamilton's isolation, and the Heron/Officer Barbrady report.

    I have a lot more sympathy for this family's plight after hearing Mum's side of events.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018757278/i-was-panicking-mother-explains-escape-from-isolation

    Edit, when I started writing this it was 1/2 past 6 and no comments.

    • Incognito 3.1

      Your sympathy is welcome and noted. The ‘hardliners’ won’t be swayed though and will still demand swift and harsh punishment without compassion 🙁

      • gsays 3.1.1

        I am sharing a lounge with one of those hardliners.

        Hearing that the family was wearing masks and the son in Auckland was wearing a mask when caught, changed my view of the story.

    • Pat 3.2

      Her side was a little inconsistent though she made a reasonable case (assuming her side was reasonably accurate which is by no means a given)

      • gsays 3.2.1

        Equally, we've only had the state's version as gospel till now.

        • Pat 3.2.1.1

          True enough although Id suggest the states version is viewed with suspicion by default…as said her version had some inconsistencies

    • weka 3.3

      the kind of judgemental comments I've seen around these cases reminds me of bene bashing. The inability to imagine or allow for circumstances that might explain behaviour. The left needs to take a long hard look at itself. At the moment it looks like compassion for other humans is entirely conditional.

      • Draco T Bastard 3.3.1

        At the moment it looks like compassion for other humans is entirely conditional.

        Yes, entirely conditional on them not endangering others with their selfishness.

        • weka 3.3.1.1

          then we can't complain when the right do this to beneficiaries too. If compassion is only for those deemed worthy by the person with the biggest stick, it's probably not actually compassion.

          • Draco T Bastard 3.3.1.1.1

            then we can't complain when the right do this to beneficiaries too.

            Beneficiaries don't do what these selfish dweebs did. Beneficiaries are, as a matter of fact, victims of capitalism. These guys are victims only of their own actions.

            Compassion isn't something that you should give out without thought to the consequences of your actions. Letting these people break the law for compassion is going to have everyone else demanding that we break the law for them as well because doing so is compassionate.

            • weka 3.3.1.1.1.1

              "Beneficiaries don't do what these selfish dweebs did."

              From a right wing perspective that's not true. Next time they are in power, they will do this same shit all over again. I'd prefer it if the left didn't run lines that uphold that position (the deserving poor and the undeserving poor).

              Compassion isn't something that you should give out without thought to the consequences of your actions. Letting these people break the law for compassion is going to have everyone else demanding that we break the law for them as well because doing so is compassionate.

              I think you have misunderstood. They broke the law and should be dealt with by the law accordingly. Compassion is about how we interact with what they did and work with nuance and context. Compassion will lead to better quarantine processes eg the MoH upping its game around its bureaucracy, or hotels providing better access to smoking areas or alcohol. Making Q better means people will be more likely to comply. Compassion serves society as well as the individual, it's not a position of endorsing problematic behaviour. We can offer compassion to people we disagree with or whose actions are wrong. There is a difference between the person and what they did.

              • weka

                here's another way to think about it. When someone commits a crime and is charged and taken to court and found guilty, the judge has discretion about sentencing, based on mitigating factors. This is compassion of a kind. It says that it's not black and white, but that context matters. There are of course all sorts of problems with how that gets applied, but the basic principle of not saying that everyone person who escapes Q should be imprisoned for 5 years or whatever is important.

              • Draco T Bastard

                From a right wing perspective that's not true.

                The right-wing are, inevitably, wrong. Especially when you realise that their entire purpose for being in power is to rip off the country and that the beneficiary bashing is there as a distraction from their theft.

                (the deserving poor and the undeserving poor)

                At no point have I said or implied that. These people aren't poor so obviously such a statement does not apply.

                Compassion is about how we interact with what they did and work with nuance and context.

                No, its not.

                a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.

                Again, I must tell you to stop using words as if their meaning is what you want it to be.

                Compassion will lead to better quarantine processes eg the MoH upping its game around its bureaucracy, or hotels providing better access to smoking areas or alcohol.

                No, it won't. Better processes will.

                There is a difference between the person and what they did.

                Yes, there is but that statement has no meaning in context. What they did is the issue – not them.

                • gsays

                  The context in which their actions took place is where compassion can arise.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    No, not really. In context its:

                    Their dad died, oh dear, how sad, never mind.

                    I don't have any compassion for any one who wilfully endangers others just because they feel hurt.

                • PaddyOT

                  yes Draco T Bastard

                  For Gallirallus' Clarity and to add to your definition of compassion

                  "the deserving poor and the undeserving poor " as uncited by the esteemed weka, is
                  referenced to original source – The Poor Act 1552 where Church Parishes kept registers of the poor and enacted powers they were given to, (among other powers) deem who was poor. This was not right wing politics nor left wing politics.
                  The English Poor Law 1531-1782 59–60 (1990). Paul Slack.

                  Then to be accurate when adding the plagiarised phrase of "the deserving poor and the undeserving poor ", it is further referenced to "The Poor Act of 1555" ( as a means to help enforce "The Poor Act 1952); whereby this law was passed by Queen Mary 1 requiring certain beggars to wear badges to identify types of poor that citizens in passing by ( not the Crown) should or should NOT give money to.

                  The poor could be found on the left or right of a street.

                  The English Poor Law 1531-1782 59–60 (1990). Paul Slack. Access through Waikato University database.

                  The political terms to be bandied around, Left and Right were first thought to have originated during the French Revolution ( 1789 – 1799) originally referring to seating arrangements in the French parliament: those who sat to the right of the chair of the then parliamentary president. These two sides of the room were grouped as Monarchists and Republicans. ( Right wing in modern times).
                  Knapp, Andrew. Wright, Vincent. The government and politics of France. New York: Routledge, 2001.

                  The people of English-speaking countries did not apply the terms right and left to their own politics until the 20th century. The English Ideology: Studies in the Language of Victorian Politics, George Watson Allen Lane, London, 1973, p. 94.

                  [the problem you have now is that you’ve got weka’s attention as a moderator in bold. Biggest mistake people make here is thinking that moderators want to spend their time on stupid arguments about moderation. If I have to keep reading your comments to see if you are stepping over a line, then I can tell you that at this point in the election cycle my patience will wear thin very quickly. You’ve now been warned – weka]

            • Incognito 3.3.1.1.1.2

              These guys are victims only of their own actions.

              Nonsense. The children lost their father and were desperate to say their farewells. Instead, they were detained in distanced isolation.

              How many people did they endanger given that they had returned negative tests and were wearing facemasks? Four of them didn’t get very far at all but the risk to the NZ population was immeasurable?

              This is simply another case where (negative) emotions trump everything else.

              • Sabine

                – false negatives are a thing

                – they were detained in managed isolation due to them coming back to NZ not send to an island in the middle of nowhere

                – they knew that they were going to be send to managed isolation upon arrival in NZ, they knew it would take two weeks.

                – they managed to endanger everyone they came in contact with, mask while helpful in preventing spread of the droplets are not a get out of prison card – and everyone in NZ is lucky that their negative test was a correct result

                – have you got proof that they wore their masks at all times or are we on their word

                – four of them got somewhere another one got further, how many people did they interact with while out and about?

                – everyone of these that they interacted with could have potentially been infected, gone home to infect their whanau, gotten up the next day to work and spread it some more there and so on and so on – luckily they all got lucky, inclusive the coppers who were send to find them

                Also this might actually be the most important point.

                Webb said the family arrived into New Zealand from Brisbane on 21 July, with the funeral of the children's father due to take place today.

                "Upon arrival they requested an exemption to spend time with a family member and a recently deceased close relative, and attend the funeral. This request was declined as the health risk was deemed too high at that point in time, noting they had not yet conducted a day 3 test.

                Webb said the family tested negative for Covid-19 after the results from their first test came back mid to late afternoon yesterday.

                "At 6.15pm last night the family were contacted by my team and were advised we were actively considering their application, and doing everything we could to support it. They were made aware that the application process was looking positive, and that they would be given a decision by 8pm last night."

                1 hour and 45 minutes …….and they gave no fucks about NZ, you me or anyone.

                • gsays

                  Your 1 hour and 45 mins is predicated on the state not failing to meet it's own deadline. Something it had already done several times.

                  Also that hindsight you are using is 20/20 vision. Not something available to this family at the time.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    What was available to the family at the time was that they knew that they weren't allowed out.

                    What's so hard to understand about that?

                  • Sabine

                    We are either serious with protecting the country from the Virus and Covid – 19 or we are not.

                    Full stop.

                    There currently is an active case in Rotorua. Maybe that person too has a good and valid reason to run away?

                    We have been more then once now lucky with people breaking quarantine. And it literally takes only one person to bring the country back into lockdown 4,

                    so yeah, they should have waited until given permission. They choose not to. And with that decision they choose to endanger anyone they met on their way. And anyone who was met by Mum and her four kids was lucky that they were indeed not afflicted with this disease. LUCKY. Not safe at home. But Lucky that these guys did not carry the virus and infected everyone on their path.

              • Draco T Bastard

                The children lost their father and were desperate to say their farewells.

                And?

                This may come as a surprise but that's not our problem. Having a pandemic is.

                Instead, they were detained in distanced isolation.

                Yes – pandemic.

                How many people did they endanger given that they had returned negative tests and were wearing facemasks?

                1. We didn't know that they were negative when they left
                2. We only have their word that they wore masks
                3. Everyone

                Four of them didn’t get very far at all but the risk to the NZ population was immeasurable?

                Yes. That's why they were in isolation.

                This is simply another case where (negative) emotions trump everything else.

                Nope. Simply logic and what is required of us when there's a pandemic happening.

                • gsays

                  This is simply another case where (negative) emotions trump everything else.

                  Nope.

                  Yep. The emotions are plentiful: "Fuck ’em." "Fuck her."

                  • Muttonbird

                    And?

                    You are a great commenter but I am convinced this family’s decision to break out of quarantine was completely wrong and they should have to face the consequences of that decision regardless of circumstance.

                    The media intent on padding their story can shove it.

                    Honestly, I’d let this go. It was just another breakout until today when some dipshit decided to sympathetically interview her sob story for the clicks. Now I am completely mad about it.

                    Great job RNZ, you fucking idiots.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                • anker

                  100% draco…………I have no sympathy for anyone absconding, whatever their circumstances

                • Incognito

                  Nope, simplistic ‘logic’. Logic would dictate to take all circumstances into account and the different PoVs. To refuse so is to deny reality. I wonder what the judge’s view is; maybe another hardliner …

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    They didn't need to go to the funeral.

                    They didn't need to see the body.

                    Society did need them in quarantine to help protect from a deadly disease so that we didn't have so many more funerals.

        • greywarshark 3.3.1.2

          Thanks DTB about your consideration, but as one of the 'others' I don't jump in with selfishness as my judgment. You could try not to be selfish and hardlining yourself. This is a world-shaking time, and death is world-shaking to the individual and family. So with practicality in mind at all times, allowing a little compassion to creep in is the difference between living among humans, and living among humans who have had ideas implanted in their brains somewhow, and who can no longer think like a human. Don't please let that happen to you DTB!

          • Draco T Bastard 3.3.1.2.1

            This is a world-shaking time, and death is world-shaking to the individual and family.

            Death happens. Its as much a part of life as being born. They're going to feel sorry for themselves because of their loss but they really didn't need to get to the body or even the funeral.

            Quarantine, on the other hand, is there to protect others from a deadly disease and is necessary.

            So with practicality in mind at all times, allowing a little compassion to creep in is the difference between living among humans

            I don't think like you so I'm not human?

            See, this is the othering that has become endemic in the Left over the last few decades and is most obvious/odious in identity politics.

            • greywarshark 3.3.1.2.1.1

              DTB I was just hoping that you hadn't lost touch with your human identity not all the other isms and shades that have arisen. But you put on the breastplate of righteousness when you advance anti-capitalism and apparently are also anti everything else that people might be fond of. I didn't realise how far the anti-thing had gone in you; you need an antidote I think. What about offering to dress up as Santa for Christmas. Sweet!

      • anker 3.3.2

        I am one of those who has made judgemental comments about absconders. Nothing has changed my mind about this woman's actions including that they were wearing masks.

        I have compassion for anyone experiencing loss, especially in Covid situations. But to abscond from isolation shows a self interest/sense of entitlement that puts an individuals needs above the greater good. She must have known that in coming to NZ there was no guarantee of getting compassionate leave. Saying that the state has let her down really annoys me. During a pandemic it is not "the States" job to ensure her kids get to see their fathers body. What risk was she putting her children at, scaling a big fence in the dark? risking arrest and a court appearance? How did this help her children.

        I feel exasperated that people don't accept we are in a pandemic and behalf accordingly. IMHO her kids would have been better off to stay in Oz and grieve peacefully together at home…………

        • weka 3.3.2.1

          I don't disagree with too much there anker. The only thing I would say is that people aren't rational during intense grief. We have the grief associated with covid and the changes to our lives and society and future (not many are talking about this) and yep, some people are taking longer to adjust than others. Not being able to say goodbye to loved ones is going to hit some harder than others. So on top of the 'should be adjusting' they're also in acute grief from someone close to them having died suddenly. That's shock and pain and disbelief and anger, you bet that some people will make poor decisions at such a time.

          The compassion is understanding that whatever we think people should do, often there are reasons why they don't.

          Like I said, the judgements I have seen remind me of bene bashing. It reminds me of how the right and even some on the left treated Turei. We can still disagree with what someone has done while understanding why they did it. There are all sorts of ways to rationalise not offering that understanding.

    • Gabby 3.4

      That dicking around call you in an hour kicking the can down the road crap is just so DHB.

      • gsays 3.4.1

        Especially when it sounds like all the other ducks were in a row: police, security military, transport…

      • anker 3.4.2

        The DHB got into a mighty amount of trouble in the media when the two English women were given compassionate leave to travel to Wellington. This likely means they are extremely cautious about granting leave now and exercise a supreme amount of care. So I am not sure kicking the can down the road is necessarily true

    • Anne 3.5

      Re the link: It shows how easy it is to pass judgement without knowing the facts of a case. We are all guilty of doing it from time to time but some are far more guilty than others.

      I've just had the sad experience of having to listen to younger judgmental relatives running down Maori and others of a minority persuasion. It's the trend you see of the upwardly mobile, and those who want to believe they are superior beings to others.

      • In Vino 3.5.1

        Sad and true, Anne – and still widely prevalent. They seem to dig their heels in instead of opening their minds..

      • anker 3.5.2

        The facts are that the woman absconded from isolation…………If you think there are extenuating circumstances that make that o.k. for some, then I hear that is your point of view.

        I don't think there are any circumstances that make it o.k. to abscond from isolation. That is a very strong view I hold. Its a pandemic. We need to do everything to ensure the virus is kept out. That means really tight rules.

        BTW my own family circumstances will likely mean I am adversely effected re seeing seriously ill loved ones overseas. But I accept this is the world we live in

    • I Feel Love 3.6

      Re the Heron report, I wonder if Woodhouse is annoyed with himself, all he would have had to do was say "no" if asked had he received the email from Boag & that would have been "good enough". Heron asked Boag did she send the email to anyone else & she said "no", Heron took her at her word. We pay him for that? Anyone could have got that result. Though, the Privacy Commissioner is still looking at it.

      • ianmac 3.6.1

        Perhaps Woodhouse gained his copies from someone other than Boag.

      • Draco T Bastard 3.6.2

        Heron asked Boag did she send the email to anyone else & she said "no", Heron took her at her word.

        That is not what an investigator doing their job does – ever.

        Someone fire him and ask for our money back.

        • Muttonbird 3.6.2.1

          Reading between the lines Labour is going very softly on the opposition at the moment. JA is serene and Hipkins is going in to bat for our very own Hitler youth.

          There's a real sense of purpose in rising above the problems of their opponents and not getting involved.

        • Treetop 3.6.2.2

          Will the privacy commissioner check to see if Boag sent the email to anyone else?

          If this is not going to happen, not good enough.

      • McFlock 3.6.3

        I don't think the Heron report was all that bad. It's essentially a fire service response: make sure the thing ain't still burning.

        The privacy commissioner will do their review and I hope they throw the book at Boag in particular. If there's no book for them to throw, the MoH has hit the ARHT with a breach of contract notice, so that will make life fucky for them until they figure out how to stop a CEO telling people to send them patient data. But part of that might involve pursuing civil or criminal legal proceedings against employees apparently responsible for redirecting intellectual property into their personal possesssion instead of the Trust's. Which is a lovely thought.

    • Muttonbird 3.7

      A mother who has admitted escaping managed isolation with her four children says she was left with no other option.

      Don't cart his kids off to Australia in the first place?

      • gsays 3.7.1

        Hardliner I'm picking there, my sooty friend.

        • Muttonbird 3.7.1.1

          When you import people from Australia you are importing a much slacker attitude to Covid-19.

          Imagine if everyone who came here for a funeral did this. We'd look like Victoria within two weeks.

          They had 700 new cases today and 87 vulnerable people have died in Australia since they ‘beat’ the virus. That is fast approaching double their initial Covid deaths with only worse to come.

          We’d be Melbourne x5 because of our weather and extremely poor housing in vulnerable communities.

          Too much is at stake and I am genuinely surprised there is any sympathy for this woman here.

          Fuck ’em.

          • gsays 3.7.1.1.1

            Did you listen to her?

            • Muttonbird 3.7.1.1.1.1

              Nope. And I won't. Surprised she gets the air time, frankly.

              • gsays

                Rightio.

              • anker

                100% Muttonbird

                • Muttonbird

                  Elsewhere I have said the initial breach was annoying but the pimping of her case by RNZ and now some Standard faithful has got me really upset.

                  • Incognito

                    Ok, this is getting a little nasty; do you know what pimping means?

                    • Muttonbird

                      Of course I know what pimping means. I will retract if you order me to do so.

                      Like I say, this case had disappeared into the many cases of quarantine absconding until the media and some comments here re-highlighted it.

                    • Incognito []

                      IMHO, accusing “some Standard faithful” of “pimping of her case” was misplaced. If you need to be ‘ordered’ to retract it means you think it was ok to make it personal with a most dubious statement 🙁

                      When those five people absconded, how “many cases of quarantine absconding” in total had there been here?

      • Draco T Bastard 3.7.2

        Well, I suppose that depends upon when they left and if they expected him to suddenly die at the time.

        • Muttonbird 3.7.2.1

          You're going soft on me Draco…

        • Sabine 3.7.2.2

          when you move overseas permanently, one of the things that will come to your mind is your death….the one of your elders for example.

          I flew home when my mother was very ill with cancer, i arrived two hours short. I knew when marrying my kiwi husband and moving here that that would be a thing that could happen, that one day i would get a call that said so and so is ill, dying come now.

          And sometimes we arrive in time and get to say good bye, and sometimes we don't. Btw, the only reason i was able to attend the funeral of my mum two weeks later was because the person from the funeral liased with the police to release the body of my mother faster then usual as i only had three weeks to stay at home. My mum passed away at home and by law there needs to be a autopsy to verify that she died of natural causes – in her case cancer, rather then say an opiod overdose.

          So frankly that is a bullshit excuse. You don't generally expect anyone other then really old people to just die, but it happens. And you either live close enough to never miss a family death/funeral or you don't and then you accept that maybe you come to late.

          • gsays 3.7.2.2.1

            If I have read you right, the subtle difference here is that the body was organised to be brought to Hamilton, to an appropriate facility.

            The family would have a brief time with him, return to isolation, and the body goes back to Auckland for the 10.30 tangi.

            • Sabine 3.7.2.2.1.1

              the problem was that they could not wait until the final decision was made.

              1 hour and 45 minutes – and they CHOOSE not to wait.

              If it had been refused then, maybe i can find it in my heart to understand them. But they DID NOT WAIT. And that is what people are right fully upset about.

              We know too little about this virus and the illnesses that it brings forth, we have the mess of the US / OZ / England / France /Spain / Italy to look at if we want to know how bad it can get. We might want to keep that in mind.

          • Draco T Bastard 3.7.2.2.2

            Well, yeah.

            My point was that leaving wasn't the problem – it was the expecting everything to be the same after the pandemic hit.

      • greywarshark 3.7.3

        Don/t have kids would be the final solution Muttonbird. So much easier and cuts complexity right down so one can see one's path straight and clear. And further don't have a partner or friend that makes life complex too.

    • PaddyOT 3.8

      Oh gsays it is boiling.

      I'm releasing another Inquiry report just for you.

      ‐——–

      "Inquiry report by Howard .I. Know QC

      Because Mr.Hamish Walker and Ms. Michelle Boag have admitted their guilt, I surmise the following-:

      1. By admission of their guilt the Inquiry will peruse the Evidence. At this level of jurisdiction, in my official power to make legal decisions and judgements, I called upon Ms. Boag and Mr. Walker to submit The Evidence.

      2. Mr.Walker admitting a terrible mistake, was distressed and feeling picked on. He did not involve anyone else that mattered to this inquiry but Ms.Boag.

      3. Ms. Boag was a number of a party who became a recipient of a highly confidential email from inept Health Ministry staff.

      4. Because of the aforementioned admissions to the public later, no other persons are sequestered nor any computer databases sought.

      Conclusion:

      Along with privacy obligations written clearly on emails, I find the Ministry of Health should have encrypted their communications.

      The two persons admitted their mistakes therefore I will pass this matter on to the Privacy Commission. I hope in that time that no other contextual data for evidence will be wiped. "

      Signed H.I.KnowQC ".

      ‐——————-

      Now for my invoice …..

    • joe90 3.9

      This selfish woman had no concern for the safety and well being other people, and we’re supposed to do what after listening to her wee sob story?

      Feel badly for her?

      I don't fucking think so.

    • Treetop 3.10

      Why was the family put in Hamilton when the body was in Auckland?

      Communication could have been a lot better when it came to giving the mother a decision on seeing the body or not seeing the body.

      Not only is the family dealing with a close death, the family need to remain in NZ until September for sentencing.

      I would Iike to see the mother recieve a compassionate sentence and for counselling support to be given to the family as their situation could have been managed better than it was.

      The pandemic is such, that it is separating people at a very differcult time and this is overwhelming for children when loss of a parent has occurred.

      • Muttonbird 3.10.1

        This psycho woman needs to be billed for her and her kids' stay according to the new rules, after they get out of prison. Then they should be shipped back to Queensland where they belong.

        • gsays 3.10.1.1

          Jeez, I trust you are just an anonymous keyboard warrior with no actual authority.

          • Muttonbird 3.10.1.1.1

            I have zero authority. Just an NZ citizen like you. She jimmied a window and broke out 5 people during the most dangerous pandemic in 100 years.

            Ship her and her kids back to Queensland. That’s the life they chose.

            I was mildly upset by the initial breach but I’m now wild at the sympathetic framing by RNZ and now some commenters on this forum.

            • Incognito 3.10.1.1.1.1

              Could be worse, you could be sick to death!

              • Muttonbird

                I, and my family of four are fine, thanks.

                Full sport for them, nine engagements per week plus full academic classes uninterrupted.

                Unlike Melbourne which has been forced back into an ill-considered L3 lockdown. No kids’ sport. It should be an Australia wide L4 lockdown.

                This Queensland woman and her family jearpordised my family’s sacrifice and hundreds of thousands of other families like mine.

                She can go back to AUS anytime and NZ will be much better off.

                • Incognito

                  Of course, you are, because if you were dead like the father of those children, you wouldn’t be commenting here, would you, and your family would not be fine, would they? I have experienced a similar situation myself and I would not wish that upon anybody else, least of all on children.

                  I’m sure that family of five will be all right too, once they have done their time here and been kicked out of NZ. They’re obviously undesirables and unwanted in this lovely country that is ours and ours only.

      • Draco T Bastard 3.10.2

        Why was the family put in Hamilton when the body was in Auckland?

        Because that was all that was available? You may not have noticed but we don't have unlimited space.

        Communication could have been a lot better when it came to giving the mother a decision on seeing the body or not seeing the body.

        Not it really couldn't have been.

        You're here, the body's there. So, no, you can't see it.

        Not hard, not complex and that's what she was told.

        I would Iike to see the mother recieve a compassionate sentence and for counselling support to be given to the family as their situation could have been managed better than it was.

        No. She wouldn't receiving a sentence if she'd just waited. And I'm pretty sure their situation was managed as well as it could be. Its not the people managing isolation that are wrong here – they are.

        The pandemic is such, that it is separating people at a very differcult time and this is overwhelming for children when loss of a parent has occurred.

        Yeah, shit happens. This does not allow for special cases.

        • anker 3.10.2.1

          Agree 100% Draco and Muttonbird

        • Treetop 3.10.2.2

          I read your comments.

          The situation was not handled as well as it could have been. Had the family been assigned a person who had the right skills to manage the families grief, their anxiety could have been reduced or fully KNOWN. Fight or flight response probably occurred due to the intensity of the situation for the family.

          Isolation is required for 14 days to prevent community transmission. This does not mean that the body could not have been taken to a room where the family were staying.

          There are so many ways in which Covid-19 can escape from isolation that any day this could happen.

          I REPEAT "the situation was not handled as well as it could have been."

          Do not make the mistake of blaming the mother for other people pissing her about and not emotionally supporting her when she was having a crisis moment.

          • Draco T Bastard 3.10.2.2.1

            The situation was not handled as well as it could have been.

            Yes, it was. Was it handled perfectly – no. It a quarantine situation there has to be give and take on both sides. This woman didn't give any.

            Do not make the mistake of blaming the mother for other people pissing her about and not emotionally supporting her when she was having a crisis moment.

            I'm not blaming her for that. I'm blaming her for breaking quarantine because she couldn't control her own damn emotions.

            Your logical fallacy of the day is: Appeal to Emotion

            • Treetop 3.10.2.2.1.1

              "I'm not blaming her for that. I'm blaming her for breaking quarantine because she couldn't control her damn emotions."

              Her emotions were not being anticipated and they needed to be as there was a crisis unfolding.

              Did anyone consider that the mother could try and escape and to prevent this?

              And

              How would you have prevented an escape?

      • Rosemary McDonald 3.10.3

        Why was the family put in Hamilton when the body was in Auckland?

        Finally! Someone asks the right question.

        • Pat 3.10.3.1

          it may have something to do with a constrained capacity and the need to keep different cohorts separated and together in those limited facilities….Hamilton was prepared for that flight.

          7000 individuals needs are difficult to cater for to the nth degree

          • Rosemary McDonald 3.10.3.1.1

            Granted, this is a difficult situation and it is near impossible to meet everyone's expectations.

            But, I assume this family made their situation clear to Whoever Was In Charge…to the point They seriously considered trucking the Deceased from Auckland to Hamilton to facilitate a viewing…why the hell could They not have injected a bit of flexibility into their system?

            Perhaps a small van and a couple of driver/minders could have taken this whanau up the Expressway to say their private goodbyes? Four hours max….and they would have been back in their isolation digs by the time the bureaucrats had made their minds up.

            And of course this could have be done safely…in the same manner they were trucked from Auckland to Hamilton in the first place.

            On one hand I get folks are scared and angry that these 'selfish people put the lives of all at risk with their unreasonable demands', but on the other I have personal experience with MOH bureaucrats and have found them not overburdened with decision making abilities. Delay is their favourite tactic, common sense is a foreign concept.

            Seriously…kindness and common sense would have gone a long way towards mitigating this particular shit-show.

            • Incognito 3.10.3.1.1.1

              yes

              • Just Is

                The "real question" is what would YOU have done in the same circumstances, and why.

                ie, would you have waited for conformation to be able to leave with permission.

                or

                Would you have broken out, knowingly breaking the Law.

                This applies to all sides of the argument.

                What would You have done?

                • Treetop

                  I would have assessed the grief and anxiety that the mother had and then I would have supported her and the children until a decision was made. And were the decision to have been not seeing the body, I would have done everything I could knowing that there were limits.

                  Appearing in court probably was a blur and may of not been appropriate.

                  Lack of management grasping the situation was the main problem.

                  • Just Is

                    Treetop

                    Your arguing after the fact.

                    Was anyone in the quarantine facility even aware of the emotional distress the family were in?

                    If the answer is No, then difficult to provide care.

                    Is there a process for the returnees to access?

                    In these circumstances, of having to attend a funeral, if not, maybe a more robust system is required to acknowledge the potential risks, the system isn't geared towards people with anguish and anxiety from a loved one passing away.

                    They were awaiting a response to be delivered only a short time after they escaped.

                    Maybe this is a learning curve for the Border Quarantine managers, and has highlighted a deficiency in the system that deserves more consideration.

                • Incognito

                  Nope, that is a distraction and a diversion towards a hypothetical situation and thus not the “real question” at all, IMO. We know what happened, more or less, and we need to understand it before we can make a sensible judgement about this particular case, if we feel inclined to do so. They have admitted the breach so that’s not in question.

                  • Just Is

                    Hypothetical

                    Because you're not sure what your own response might be if you were placed in the same circumstances?

                    Would you have raised a flag, asked for more assistance, or forced a window to escape?

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    My hypothetical is whether this particular family, knowing what they know now (and what some suggest they knew then, e.g. that their application was receiving favourable consideration), including the prospect of a sympathetic 20-minute interview on RNZ, and the charges and potential penalties they face, would do anything differently. I hope that they would, for everyone's sake – if they wouldn't then some things need to change, e.g. more focused help and advice for those experiencing unusually high levels of stress.

                    When large numbers of people (by NZ standards) find themselves in (stressful) circumstances that carry an unusual health risk (to themselves and/or others), then any hint that the rules governing those circumstances are flexible is asking for trouble. We saw this in lockdown (heck, the Minister of Health ultimately lost his portfolio because of poor judgement over his movements), and I'd suggest that we'll see more of it if the idea that you can ‘have a go‘ at breaching border quarantine without significant consequences gains traction.

                    • Just Is

                      Patients is a rare human trait.

                      Emotional greif clouds peoples judgment.

                      Border Quarantine is there to protect every NZer.

                      We need to learn from these experiences and make adjustments accordingly.

            • Treetop 3.10.3.1.1.2

              The Wespac helicopter could have flowen the body to Hamilton and returned by van.

              The details would need to have been managed carefully and agreed by the mother. A person can only make an informed decision when they have all the details.

              Common sense was required and not politics or an unnecessary delay in making a decision.

              Not to sure but culturally the body is not removed at night. So cultural awareness was lacking.

            • Draco T Bastard 3.10.3.1.1.3

              why the hell could They not have injected a bit of flexibility into their system?

              Because its quarantine.

              Perhaps a small van and a couple of driver/minders could have taken this whanau up the Expressway to say their private goodbyes?

              And then we'd have thousands of people demanding the same bloody thing with an inevitable loss of quarantine.

              And of course this could have be done safely…

              No, it wouldn't. The breaking of quarantine is inherently not safe.

              common sense is a foreign concept.

              Common sense is a fallacy being neither common nor sense.

              Seriously…kindness and common sense would have gone a long way towards mitigating this particular shit-show.

              What would have easily mitigated this shit show was a stupid, selfish person not breaking quarantine.

      • anker 3.10.4

        the woman was put in Hamilton because quarantine places are limited and Hamilton must have been the place they could accommodate her family. FFS this isn't a holiday we are offering people. Go where you are sent, because the priority is keeping NZders safe

    • mpledger 3.11

      I have sympathy for her predicament but … she appears to have no comprehension of the catastrophe she could have caused … and the first people impacted would have been her own whanau.

      In her radio interview, rather than apologizing for her actions, she just tried to vindicate them by blaming everyone else.

      Everyone seemed to be bending over backwards to give her what she wanted (at no cost to her from what I can tell) but because it wasn't on her timetable she decided that noone but herself mattered.

    • Treetop 3.12

      You spoke to soon about any reaction. Your topic of the mother's interview gave some strong views.

      Wow to the response.

  4. joe90 4

    Seems having more money than dog makes you stupid.

    • weka 4.1

      what interests me about that story is not that Madonna did something stupid, but the number of liberals who are believing the Frontline Doctors propaganda, despite the known connections to pro-fascist right. That group of otherwise progressive people is growing, and they're a dangerous mix of libertarianism, poor science literacy, and apolitical world views.

      More important to them than left/right is concern about the government and authority. The left really needs to stop ridiculing them, and remember how radicalisation works. In NZ we still have the chance to create a better culture than in the US, but that window won't be open for long and the right are actively promoting politics that takes advantage of the disaffection.

  5. joe90 5

    Lost eyes all over the shop….

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