David Cunliffe’s Congress Speech and education policy

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1. Tautoko Viper 1

   6 July 2014 at 8:51 am

   “to reduce class sizes by funding more teachers, using cash clawed back from current Government funding for elite teachers.”
   Hooray for common sense!!!!
   I’m sick of listening to Hekia Parata’s idiotic suggestions on education.
   I’m fed up with feeling nauseous at the thought of yet another looming battle against vouchers, bulk funding and for profit charter schools,.
   Bring it on, Labour!!
   • Chooky 1.1

     7 July 2014 at 8:42 am

     @ Tautoko Viper “I’m sick of listening to Hekia Parata’s idiotic suggestions on education”.

     …yes and I am sick of hearing how much time Parata is given to hog it on Morning Report

     …way more time than Labour whose polices were under discussion….Talk about bias!

     ….Where was Chris Hipkins?…the interviewer of Parata did her best ….but a Labour spokesperson would have done much better…

     Questions I would like the answers to:

     • National talks about “quality teaching” but for Charter Schools it was going to allow non trained teachers!…to indoctrinate?…hardly quality teaching /educating here!( in the USA Charter School ‘teachers’ are often not trained teachers/educators)
     • is it true that teachers are paid more in Private Schools?… thereby poaching ‘quality’ teachers?…if this is the case Labour should take away New Zealand tax payers subsidies to Private Schools!!!!….all teachers should be paid the same in the State and Private education sectors
     • Tracey 1.1.1

       7 July 2014 at 10:08 am

       two great questions chooky.

       Kings college, where john and bronagh chose to send their child advocates for small teacher student ratios… Is Perata and Key going to publically say that college is engaging in misleading and deceptive conduct with their claim?
   • Tracey 1.2

     7 July 2014 at 10:04 am

     anecdote to follow

     A very dear friend who lives with us is a teacher. Over 25 years experience. Afer becoming a teacher, about ten years in, completed a post grad diploma and then a masters, while teaching. Did special needs for many years and returned to the mainstream about foyr years ago, what we used to call new entrants.

     Got down to the last 800 for the nzei negotiated advanced teacher allowances. However the large increase in paperwork, the reality of working 60+ hours a week to get through paperwork, and other observations saw her recently apply for and get a job outside the classroom.

     Another very experienced teach gone. With all management units etc earning about 76k gross after 25 years.

     Now, teacher quality, 100 people applied for a new entrant position two years ago. Someone she knew appkied. After interviews dp asked if she would hire her. She said no. They hired her. That teacher is now formally under a process of supervision, its called something, i cant recall, but means she is not good. One aspect is the same for all employers, that some people interview very well effectively hiding their actual competence, second aspect is quality.

     When it comes to ceo pay, public or private sector, we are told if you want quality this is what you have to pay. We PAY police cadets to train and after three months start them on over 50k. We dont pay to train teachers, we saddle them with three to four years debt and tgen start them on??

     Most people dont teach cos of the money but i know from my friend and other teachers i know that they are at a point where they feel so undervalued and over worked that they now resent their pay and increasingly look elsewhere.

     Getting ratios down, quality and pay up should both be chased, not either or.

     So, people like srylands say apply the market, justify high, excessive pay cos of the market, but i never see him advocating those principles to teaching. They cherry pick and prattle on about accountability as in the private sector BUT they dont advocate the corrollary.

     Teachers are no longer respected and they know it. Their union is despised when it is the only public voice championing for our children and those we entrust their potential to. When you arent respected you stop caring, stop trying and get tired.
2. Colonial Viper 2

   6 July 2014 at 9:14 am

   Definitely looking forward to DC’s speech and hope that there are also other big policy announcements.
   • Mary 2.1

     6 July 2014 at 11:38 am

     Yes, but for every big policy announcement key just eats another baby, national goes up in the polls and Labour’s announcement, however good it is, is ridiculed as trivial or too expensive or too whacky or too anything at all. I’d like to know what Labour intends doing about that.
     • Craig Glen Eden 2.1.1

       6 July 2014 at 12:13 pm

       Bang on Mary, Labour still does not have a clear message you can have great policy but if you dont present it with a consistent narrative you may as well piss in the wind. Please please please stop pissing into the wind Labour/Cunliffe. Time is almost up!
       • michael smythe 2.1.1.1

         6 July 2014 at 3:39 pm

         Craig the message is clear:
         Vote positive – Party vote Labour
         People Matter Most
         and the foundation for building a prosperous economy /society is investment it:
         Work/ Homes /Families
         • Colonial Viper 2.1.1.1.1

           6 July 2014 at 4:32 pm

           The ‘vote positive’ moniker is not that flash – it should simply have been ‘vote Labour 2014’ or similar
           • Craig Glen Eden 2.1.1.1.1.1

             6 July 2014 at 6:38 pm

             agreed CV, Labour needs a catch cry that represents Labour values, a parties name needs to be its brand, the brand has to express those values they need to be seen as one.
           • Enough is Enough 2.1.1.1.1.2

             7 July 2014 at 8:53 am

             Agreed CV

             Everyone thinks they a voting ‘positive’.
             • Tracey …

               7 July 2014 at 12:34 pm

               people who vote for “a lessor of two evils” probably doesnt feel positive about their vote.
           • blue leopard 2.1.1.1.1.3

             7 July 2014 at 1:04 pm

             re ‘not that flash’

             I disagree – Labour and the Left have consistently been attacked for being negative.
             Vote positive is a really good move to counter this bullshit spin.

             It also reminds left-wingers to keep positive. There is nothing like framing things in a positive light, CV – you should try it some time.

             National get votes by dividing New Zealanders into hostile camps. ‘Bloody Beneficiaries, Bloody Maoris, Bloody Workers, Bloody Bureaucrats, Bloody Feminists, Bloody Gays, Bloody Tree-Huggers.’ The right-wing are grinches – they alienate us all from one another.

             Everything coming out of Cunliffe’s mouth indicates this type of divisiveness and hatred will be lessened under a government lead by Mr Cunliffe.

             The slogan, therefore isn’t just good for countering bullshit spin -it reminds us to positively promote a positive way forward and is accurate because New Zealand will be a more positive place to live in with a Labour/Left-led government.
             • Tracey …

               7 July 2014 at 1:29 pm

               i agree with what you wrote
3. Ant 3

   6 July 2014 at 9:21 am

   Good, decreased class sizes and increasing contact time per student is the key to better educational quality.
4. ianmac 4

   6 July 2014 at 9:59 am

   And reduced class sizes would help with those underperforming kids. It would be much more effective to use peer support and teacher expertise in a class of say 24. I think at the moment schools reduce the size of new entrant classes by bulking up more senior classes in Primary schools.
   Be great if the reductions flowed on into senior classes and this would be a major factor in developing skills for using the digital tools announced by Labour.
   Great Policy.
   The supporters of bigger classes will say that smaller classes are not the top precursors for better classrooms. It is 3rd though.
   • Melb 4.1

     6 July 2014 at 11:09 am

     What are the top two precursors?

     Where do better-quality teachers sit?
     • ianmac 4.1.1

       6 July 2014 at 11:38 am

       As North says Hatties top precursor is constructive feedback to kids. This may be from the teacher helping the kid to identify and action next steps for improvement. It can be from well organised peer to peer conferencing.
       Class sizes tests have not shown much differences but if you just translate big class processes onto smaller numbers not much will change. If teachers learn different processes for smaller classes like constant feedback and support then this pays dividends. Some say 24 is a practical number given fiscal restraints but some private schools have maximums of 18 per class and individual learning plans for each child. Funny that.
       • ianmac 4.1.1.1

         6 July 2014 at 11:51 am

         Hattie has 138 precursors which become very finely differentiated. But many items within the reach of teachers are only feasible within a smaller class size. On his list class size is actually way down but Hattie qualified that somewhere. I think that teachers would get much greater satisfaction and achieve more, and stay longer with smaller classes.
     • greywarbler 4.1.2

       6 July 2014 at 11:56 am

       Where do better-quality teachers sit?
       At present they are sitting filling out forms demanded by their process-oriented funders who don’t respect teachers ability to pass on good education to kids.

       Under Labour I hope, they will be standing, moving around, helping here and explaining there as children work on problems and research the background to them and the answers they prepare. And teachers will get more sleep instead of working into the night trying to keep up with the increasing demands from politicians.

       Present-day pollies and nouveau riche employers learned very little apart from the basic utilitarianist education from their school time except for the ability to walk over others, look for the main chance and seize it, and refine their bullying and con-man skills. The present education system is being designed by people who haven’t had the education to understand anything about what is needed to achieve a good functioning democracy with today’s world problems.
     • Tracey 4.1.3

       7 July 2014 at 1:36 pm

       no other profession i know of requires employees to go to a minimum of one session, outside classroom time, a week on prof development, a new something or other, which every teacher has to attend… Often from month to month these sessions have contradictory ideas.report every minutiae of what they do

       Quality teachers, and its most of them, are struggling, and looking to leave the classrooms.

       I know of no other profession so constantly vilified and under public scrutiny as teaching. Where parents, by virtue of having children, think they know all about teaching.

       National has successfully conned parents into thinking their children are suffering at the hand of incompetent teachers to achieve their ideological ends. Now parents seem to believe teaching quality is in the gutter BUT no one is banging down nationals door demanding a better quality recruit. In other professions you atract such people with great conditions, high pay and you value them. Not in education.
       I
       • Colonial Viper 4.1.3.1

         7 July 2014 at 3:30 pm

         So…all this is driven by the Ministry…what is going on at that level.
         • Tracey 4.1.3.1.1

           7 July 2014 at 3:43 pm

           it appears to be driven by ministry to establish the evidence of accountability. It is hard to ascertain accountability leaving teachers to teach, so prof dev sessions, increased paperwork is required to satisfy higher up criteria.

           One problem is the one size fits all assessment system, so a teacher with thirty years experience has to sit through the same presentation as a beginner teacher, and less credit is given to experience per se, cos how do we “show” that to the ministry.
           • Colonial Viper 4.1.3.1.1.1

             7 July 2014 at 4:33 pm

             Thanks. Always have to keep in check the natural tendency of bureaucracies to justify their own existence, doubly so in an age of middle management speak, KPIs, measurable deliverables, action points etc.
             • Tracey …

               7 July 2014 at 4:54 pm

               i am sure this will exist as it does in most organisations but somehow we have to find a balance between assessing performance and stifling ability and time to teach.

               It is lazy to rely on student “grades” as the only measure of whether a teacher is good or bad.
5. Northshoreguynz 5

   6 July 2014 at 11:09 am

   But it will go a long way to reaching Hatties number 1 which was regular feedback. Much easier to provide feedback to 24 students than 30+
6. Frank Macskasy 6

   6 July 2014 at 12:17 pm

   It’s a crying shame that the Nats don’t have the wit to look at Finland and other Scandinavian countries, to study their education systems.

   It’s crazy that National is looking to Charter Schools – a US invention – when Finland is near the top of the OECD PISA tables, and does not use that system.

   But I guess the last thing a right wing governments wants is to admit that they might learn something from Eauropean social democracies..
   • Draco T Bastard 6.1

     6 July 2014 at 2:06 pm

     Right wing governments want the private sector in complete control of what people learn. They don’t actually want people to learn how to learn or how to think which is where public education has been going over the last couple of decades. They just want more memorisation of received wisdom so that people can be better slaves.
   • Chooky 6.2

     6 July 2014 at 4:28 pm

     @ Frank Macskasy

     ….its all about privatisation of education…the Americans can see big money in it….and of course they can indoctrinate kids in religious Charter Schools
7. fisiani 7

   6 July 2014 at 12:33 pm

   Six years of endless negativity and now the joke Vote Positive. The ABCs have triumphed.
   • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1

     6 July 2014 at 12:37 pm

     The easiest way of working out what crimes the right plans to or is executing on the rest of society is to look at what they are accusing the left of.

     It’s like some weird self diagnosis that manifests itself in projection onto others, and it’s uncannily accurate.

     Tom Jackson
     • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1

       6 July 2014 at 2:07 pm

       +111
       • blue leopard 7.1.1.1

         6 July 2014 at 3:21 pm

         & + 222 🙂
   • Rodel 7.2

     6 July 2014 at 8:34 pm

     Six years of endless incompetence from National and now the joke ‘Vote Parata’ . Labour has triumphed.
8. Jrobin 8

   6 July 2014 at 12:38 pm

   Frank who cares, it’s great news for Labour! National is very vulnerable on Education. The worst education policies for decades, and polling shows it to be a leading issue for voters. Class sizes make a huge difference and parents know this despite Hatties propaganda. Goodbye Charter schools and National standards too. Congratulations Labour and well done Chris Hipkins
   • Chooky 8.1

     6 July 2014 at 6:03 pm

     +100
9. phillip ure 9

   6 July 2014 at 1:38 pm

   f.f.s..!..they can’t even get the sound in the livestream to work..!
10. phillip ure 10

    6 July 2014 at 1:59 pm

    you’d hafta say..

    ..he is kinda kicking arse…

    ..this could be the day/speech that sees him elected..

    ..and gives a lot of rhetoric to live up to..

    ..and to deliver on..

    ..update:..it’s almost turning into a blinder..

    ..and if this doesn’t turn the media narrative around..

    ..i give all of team-cunnliffe permission to commit ritual hari kari..

    ..’cos if this doesn’t work..

    ..nothing will..
11. Ant 11

    6 July 2014 at 2:11 pm

    Great speech!
    • veutoviper 11.1

      6 July 2014 at 2:15 pm

      +1. He has the fire in his belly, and must keep it.
    • Anne 11.2

      6 July 2014 at 2:16 pm

      Fabulous speech. And all of it without notes or a prompter.

      He is a prime minister. A real one!
      • phillip ure 11.2.1

        6 July 2014 at 2:21 pm

        yep..!..he put the ‘step’ in ‘stepping-up’…
      • Colonial Viper 11.2.2

        6 July 2014 at 4:35 pm

        The gutsy no nonsense Real Red stuff was great. National Standards – ditched. 2000 new teachers – hired. Charter schools – history.

        Those and trickle down/neoliberalism doesnt’ work – utterly fabulous.
12. ianmac 12

    6 July 2014 at 2:23 pm

    Mighty speech. So pleased at the policies re Education uplift. Audience I noticed were cosmopolitan and just a sprinkling of grey hair. (Notice that the National Party forum last week on TV were totally grey heads. Not agin’ grey heads – am one myself but…)
13. phillip ure 13

    6 July 2014 at 2:25 pm

    heh..!..this is funny..!

    ..auto-txt-correct on vintage i-phone just corrected cunnliffe into ‘fun life’..

    ..you can/are welcome to take that as a positive-omen..
14. aspasia 14

    6 July 2014 at 2:30 pm

    Well done David!! We’re on the way to government…a real one!
15. big bruv 15

    6 July 2014 at 2:37 pm

    Of course the very best thing that Cunliffe could do with the Education portfolio is to tell the teachers unions that it is no longer acceptable to be more concerned about protecting their pathetic and underperforming members at the expense of our kids education.

    In other words, take politics out of education. Admit that our current system is failing one in five kids, admit that we do not have a “world class” education system and admit that perhaps for some kids the idea of charter schools has some merit.

    Will he do this?, of course not. Cunliffe is in debt to the teachers unions and it is now time for him to repay that debt.
    • phillip ure 15.1

      6 July 2014 at 2:42 pm

      and did you miss the bit where he said ‘bye-bye’ to charter-schools..?

      ..he came ‘not to praise them..he came to bury’ them..
      • big bruv 15.1.1

        6 July 2014 at 2:50 pm

        Why would I waste my time watching Cunliffe?

        However if he did say that then my point is even more valid. The opposition to charter schools is driven by the unions. The unions do not care about educating the one in five that fail, they simply care about feathering the nest of their own pathetic members.

        Charter schools are a good thing, not for all kids but for the one in five that fail they may well be the cure. What we do know for sure is that the current system fails that one in five and that the teachers unions could not care less.
        • KJT 15.1.1.1

          6 July 2014 at 4:24 pm

          Big Bruv. Another fact free zone.

          I’ve worked with lots of Teachers. Some are better than others, as you would expect, but I have never met any that were not trying to do their very best for their students.

          Some of the best and hardest working were in low decile schools, where many of the kids were failing despite their Teachers best efforts. Which suggests there is much more than Teachers work effort at play here.

          We have proven and tested methods of lifting achievement, but because they consist of things like reducing child poverty, increasing special help, supporting Teachers and allowing them to Teach instead of simplistic measurement to keep micro-managing autocrats happy, the Government would rather use band aids that are proven failures, in the USA, Sweden and the UK.

          They have, however, succeeded in their intent, which is not to improve education, but to divert tax payer dollars into business pockets.

          It is funny that RWNJ’s think we get the best managers by paying them ridiculous amounts of money, but that we can get better Teachers by micro-managing them, underpaying and overworking them, and making their working conditions impossible.
          • big bruv 15.1.1.1.1

            6 July 2014 at 6:18 pm

            “We have proven and tested methods of lifting achievement, but because they consist of things like reducing child poverty, increasing special help, supporting Teachers and allowing them to Teach”

            Proven and Tested????

            One in five fail. That is not proven and tested.

            The system is broken, it needs to be totally revamped. It needs a way of rewarding the best teachers, it needs a way of riding ourselves of the rubbish teachers. It needs the unions to get out of the way and put the kids first for a change.
            • KJT 15.1.1.1.1.1

              6 July 2014 at 6:23 pm

              Yes BB, proven and tested, but not available to enough children because National would rather the funding went to their mates.

              You are a bit out of date BB. The tail reduced to 12% under Labour. It is now expanding again as funding is cut, to give more money to Nationals idealogical failures..

              They have set our education system back 30 years.

              Just as we were introducing a new curriculum based on best practise, research and evidence, National broke it!
              • big bruv …

                6 July 2014 at 6:37 pm

                KJT

                The only ideological failure has been in the way the teachers unions have destroyed our education system.

                The system I stuffed, it needs over hauling. I want to see the very best teachers earning as much as an MP (even the crap left wing ones) and I want to see the worst of them out of a job. You can defend the failing system all you like KJT but you cannot defend the fact that the atrocious teachers are still in our system and defended by the unions. That is inexcusable.
                • KJT …

                  6 July 2014 at 6:42 pm

                  Still a fact free zone.
                  • big bruv …

                    6 July 2014 at 6:55 pm

                    One in five fails KJT. That is the only fact you need.

                    Mind you, it seems that like the teachers unions this is more about politics for you than it is about the failing education system.

                    You should be ashamed of yourself.
                    • mickysavage …

                      6 July 2014 at 6:57 pm

                      One in 5 kids in poverty BB. That is the only fact you need.
                    • KJT …

                      6 July 2014 at 7:46 pm

                      Dropping under Labour and rising under National. need I say more.
                    • One Anonymous Bloke …

                      7 July 2014 at 9:36 am

                      The most influential factor in educational achievement is household income.

                      Whenever lying Capill-Garrett scum like Big Bruv tell lies, repeat it and keep on repeating it.
                    • big bruv …

                      7 July 2014 at 9:46 am

                      One Anonymous Idiot.

                      So if we gave the parents of every school child one million dollars they would all produce intellectual geniuses?

                      Only a brain dead socialist could think like that.
                    • One Anonymous Bloke …

                      7 July 2014 at 9:51 am

                      Only a brain-dead fool with the ethical capacity of a Capill-Garrett would mistake that for a cogent argument.

                      The most influential factor in educational achievement is household income.
            • Colonial Viper 15.1.1.1.1.2

              6 July 2014 at 6:31 pm

              It needs the unions to get out of the way and put the kids first for a change.

              Well, the teacher unions are far more expert in matters of education than the Key Govt, so it’s probably the Key Govt who needs to get out of the way.
              • big bruv …

                6 July 2014 at 6:40 pm

                Viper

                How the hell are unions more expert in the matters of education?

                The unions are there to protect the crap teachers, if they know anything about education it is that they don’t care how bad a teacher is just as long as the union ensured that teacher remains in the job.

                If these teacher unions were genuinely concerned (all evidence points to them not caring) they would assist in getting rid of the many crap teachers.
                • KJT …

                  6 July 2014 at 6:43 pm

                  Where are all these “crap Teachers”?

                  In Government?

                  Hekia?
                  • Tracey …

                    7 July 2014 at 3:47 pm

                    brownlee
                • Colonial Viper …

                  6 July 2014 at 6:46 pm

                  Of course the unions are expert at education. They know what is happening at the grass roots level at every school and have networks across the country which give them a better perspective than you can get from the Thorndon Bubble.

                  The National Party efforts to break up the teaching profession, privatise schools, set metrics which have nothing to do with educating children have not gone un-noticed you know.

                  If these teacher unions were genuinely concerned (all evidence points to them not caring) they would assist in getting rid of the many crap teachers.

                  Please don’t broadsmear our overall-excellent teaching profession. There are always problem members of any profession, and the Ministry of Education works very closely with the unions to sort out such issues early and quickly when Boards of Trustees raise them.
                  • big bruv …

                    6 July 2014 at 6:59 pm

                    Viper

                    One in five fails. That is not the result of an “overall-excellent teaching profession”

                    That is the result of a failing education system that allows itself to put politics ahead of outcome.

                    If you guys really were genuine about fixing our failing education system then you would not politicise it, sadly for the left and the unions that is not possible. The results are there for all to see, the continuation of a failure rate that the left defend and the right want to improve.
                    • lprent …

                      6 July 2014 at 7:02 pm

                      Tell me BB. Are you just being completely negative. So (ummmm) National party of you.

                      😈
                    • Colonial Viper …

                      6 July 2014 at 7:03 pm

                      The one in five fails is a dodgy stat, but it would be seriously reduced if we provided lunches in schools. But National voted against that.

                      And that’s much less to do with the teachers; a lot to do with National not understanding what is happening in actual education in actual schools.
                    • Te Reo Putake …

                      6 July 2014 at 7:17 pm

                      1 in 5 fails? Not good enough, by far. When it comes to MP’s, ACT have worked hard to lift that figure a lot closer to the magical 100% failure rate.
              • big bruv …

                6 July 2014 at 7:04 pm

                micky

                One in five kids have parents who are drop kicks. That is the true stat.

                The really outrageous thing about that stat is that once again you guys want to defend the feral parents.
                There is no excuse at all for any child to go to school hungry, or without adequate footwear and rainwear.

                Why do you defend feral parents?
                • big bruv …

                  6 July 2014 at 7:06 pm

                  iprent

                  I take it you made that comment with your tongue very firmly pressed against the inside of your cheek.

                  Either that or you are simply in true Labour party mode.
                • mickysavage …

                  6 July 2014 at 7:35 pm

                  Geez fisi I see the results through my work. Kids turning up to school without breakfast and they cannot learn. Have you every tried to survive on a benefit and pay standard rental and feed your kids? If not you should apologise …
                  • KJT …

                    6 July 2014 at 7:43 pm

                    Not Fizzer, it is the other parrot.

                    Don’t blame you for confusing them. Neither have any original things to say.
                  • big bruv …

                    6 July 2014 at 8:22 pm

                    Micky

                    Yet plenty of people in NZ manage to do so every single week. Why are you so intent on making excuses for drop kick parents?
                    • mickysavage …

                      6 July 2014 at 8:26 pm

                      Answer the question BB
                    • big bruv …

                      7 July 2014 at 9:47 am

                      I have answered the question Micky. Now, how about you answer mine?

                      Why are you so intent on defending drop kick parents?
                    • One Anonymous Bloke …

                      7 July 2014 at 10:26 am

                      First, he says it’s the teachers. Then he blames the parents. Flailing, failing and full of hate.

                      What a nasty piece of work.
      • Chooky 15.1.2

        6 July 2014 at 4:15 pm

        @ phillip ure …’bye-bye’ to charter schools?…..really?…that is great news!!!

        GO Labour !
    • ianmac 15.2

      6 July 2014 at 2:46 pm

      A bit pointless bb but do you know of even one case when “protecting their pathetic and underperforming members at the expense of our kids education” exists?
      We have glaring examples of the PM protecting protecting his “pathetic and underperforming Ministers Collins, McCully, at the expense of our country’s welfare” but are you concerned bb?
      • big bruv 15.2.1

        6 July 2014 at 2:52 pm

        Am I concerned?

        Not at all, John Key will still be PM after Sept 20 and Labour will be onto its next leader.

        The real battle will be with the scum unions in the next term.
        • KJT 15.2.1.1

          6 July 2014 at 4:27 pm

          Federated farmers, the business round table (that was, now allied with the NZ Institute), Employers and manufacturers, Tax dodgers (sorry tax payers union), The National party, ACT, etc.

          Yeah time those bunches of tax dodgers and bludgers were dealt to.
    • Rodel 15.3

      6 July 2014 at 8:38 pm

      Of course the very best thing that Key and Parata could do with the Education portfolio is to tell the charter schools advocates that it is no longer acceptable to be more concerned about protecting their pathetic and underperforming members at the expense of our kids education.
16. lprent 16

    6 July 2014 at 2:42 pm

    I’m particularly liking the “Positive” part of the campaign.

    I intend to start pointing out how Nationals sockpuppets are never positive. Carping fools generally. Especially Cameron Slater and David Farrar. Can anyone remember a time when they have been different in the last 3 or 4 years? Always negative towards anything that wasn’t NAct.
17. kiwigunner 17

    6 July 2014 at 2:43 pm

    The speech was outstanding. As a principal the education policy appeals as both realistic and beneficial. Far better than the National parties executive principal idea which would have simply seen new cars in one in ten staff car parks and part time principals in those very same schools. Well done – there is still hope!
18. Rose 18

    6 July 2014 at 2:43 pm

    The sound for David Cunliffe’s speech here doesn’t seem as good as when I watched the original. I wonder if you can do it again with better sound.
19. fisiani 19

    6 July 2014 at 3:47 pm

    Taken and adapted from Kiwiblog

    Hundreds of studies have concluded that the quality of a teacher is the biggest influence on a child’s learning. The same studies have also concluded that the impact of class size is quite minor in comparison.Class size is ranked only the 106th most powerful influence on learning by Prof Hattie . That’s 106th out of 130. Now this is not his personal view. This is a summary of 50,000 individual studies and 800+ meta-studies.

    Labour’s policy is about politics, not education. Again there are hundreds of studies that confirm teacher quality is far more important than class size. There are meta-studies of meta-studies. This is not an issue there is serious dispute over.

    Basically Labour has gone for quantity over quality, It’s one of their worst policies. Some of their stuff on 21st century schools is very good, but this aspect is basically appalling. Not the reducing class sizes in itself – but choosing to do that rather than fund an initiative to have great teachers share their success with other teachers.

    Cunliffe will have this fact pointed out over and over again. The ABC’s have written his speech again. That’s the only possible explanation.
    • Chooky 19.1

      6 July 2014 at 4:10 pm

      @ fiscinai

      why is it then that Private Schools mark themselves out for excellence by having small class sizes and high teacher- per student ratio …hence students receive very good individualised learning and teacher attention?

      ….same arguments for Charter Schools…small class sizes and individual attention

      ….cant have it both ways!!!…State School kids also deserve smaller class sizes and more individual attention!!!!
      • dimebag russell 19.1.1

        6 July 2014 at 4:36 pm

        thats right chooky.
        and that can be achieved by using the taxes for the greater good instead of giving them away to nutbars and the tribe who think their own sh*t doesn’t stink but want everybody else to pay for them.
        they really have a cheek trying to steal off taxpayers for their own selfish ends.
    • KJT 19.2

      6 July 2014 at 4:31 pm

      Yeah, because having “executive” Teachers away from their own classrooms is really going to lift achievement…………..

      Worked well for ENRON, Solid Energy and so many others, didn’t it?
      • Chooky 19.2.1

        6 July 2014 at 6:05 pm

        +100…”Executive Teachers” …the NACTs were planning to use as the thin end of the wedge…ie split off NACT/ and Charter School sympathetic sycophantic teachers from the real educators ….and reward their “chosen” for services towards privatising education and Charter Schools
    • Weepu's beard 19.3

      6 July 2014 at 4:43 pm

      If class size is so unimportant, let’s get some real bang for our buck. 100, 200, 500 kids per class!
      • lprent 19.3.1

        6 July 2014 at 8:48 pm

        Yeah right? But I don’t think it will make a tui ad. Does anyone?
    • KJT 19.4

      6 July 2014 at 4:55 pm

      What hundreds of studies.?

      Not that I am aware of and I have looked at a great many education studies.

      Including many which say that the most effective class/tutorial size is 6 to 8 and the most you should have in a workshop is 12. High school workshop classes have up to 36.
      That the ability and effectiveness of a Teacher drop markedly when you have too large a class. Especially, as in most of our lower decile schools, there is a wide variation in abilities and levels.

      However the biggest influences are the quality of Teaching and the effect of background and what Freire calls the “social contract” (You are aware of Freire, are you Fizzer, seeing as you have studied so much about education?).
    • NZ Femme 19.5

      6 July 2014 at 9:18 pm

      The expert you are relying on to make your point Fisi, ranks Charter Schools even lower than class size. Your critique fails to mention that.
20. anker 20

    6 July 2014 at 4:17 pm

    Fantastic speech. Fantastic person (Cunliffe) he will make a truly great PM.
    Fantastic policies.

    Labour is going back to its pre Rogernomics roots. It’s not a moment too late.
    • big bruv 20.1

      6 July 2014 at 8:24 pm

      Back to 1970’s economics because that worked so well last time?
      • mickysavage 20.1.1

        6 July 2014 at 8:26 pm

        Can’t you do better than this BB? I am really disappointed with the lack of a sophisticated response to Labour’s policy announcements. Is the PMO working overtime trying but failing to find holes?
        • Rodel 20.1.1.1

          6 July 2014 at 8:42 pm

          MS
          Did you really expect a sophisticated response from BB.. really?
        • big bruv 20.1.1.2

          6 July 2014 at 8:43 pm

          Micky

          I’m still waiting for you to tell me why you insist on defending drop kick parents?

          As for a sophisticated response, scroll up a bit old chap and you will see where I have given plenty of sophisticated responses.

          Now, care to answer my question?
          • Colonial Viper 20.1.1.2.1

            6 July 2014 at 10:02 pm

            Back to 1970′s economics because that worked so well last time?

            Labour needs to construct a brand new vision with brand new solutions for what will shortly become a very difficult and very different future. A new kind of democratic economic socialism and democratic communitarianism is required. Cunliffe’s presentation today was great – but only a small fraction of what NZ will shortly need.

            References to 1970’s 1980’s 1990’s 2000’s economics are both irrelevant and dangerous – what we have now is a combination of factors never faced before. Fossil fuel and physical resource depletion. A corporate/billionaire oligarchy and security surveillance state. China as the industrial and population power of the Pacific. And the continuing deterioration of US dollar financial hegemony and stability in the next few years. A vast global financial system whose assets and debts are many multiples beyond what the physical world can pay our on. Catastrophic climate change.

            Unfortunately, I believe that we are living in exciting times indeed.
21. Appleboy 21

    6 July 2014 at 4:23 pm

    I was there, and have to say I am more positive than ever we will get rid of national now. This policy will have a big plus with the wider electorate.

    I like the mention that in the last 2 elections national fell away 6%. Let’s say we see them at 44-5.

    Labour picks up to 32 (easy now) Green at 12-3. MMP discussions will easily out Key now.
    • Colonial Viper 21.1

      6 July 2014 at 4:38 pm

      Def better after today. That damn super policy is still a 2% drag…
      • KJT 21.1.1

        6 July 2014 at 4:45 pm

        Yes. How do you reconcile that with “helping hard working New Zealanders”? The ones that are stuffed by their hard work by 60, let alone 65.

        The policy needs to match the words.

        Maybe David Cunliffe means it, but I am not sure that many others in Labour’s caucus have realised it is not 1984, and that the great Neo-liberal experiment has failed…
        • Colonial Viper 21.1.1.1

          6 July 2014 at 4:54 pm

          An MP who shall remain nameless spoke before Cunliffe about the “success” of Labour’s China FTA…

          And its not just the loss of jobs, income and industry which neoliberalism has wrought – but now the willingness to destroy entire countries and ecosystems in pursuit of illusory monetary profit
          • phillip ure 21.1.1.1.1

            6 July 2014 at 5:50 pm

            in the interests of accuracy..viper..

            ..the reference was to nationals’ reliance on disaster income..and the income from the trade deal labour did with china..

            ..and that being ‘it’..

            ..which is/was a fair-call..
        • Draco T Bastard 21.1.1.2

          6 July 2014 at 5:09 pm

          Yeah, I can’t see Labour winding down the neo-liberal experiment yet no matter what Cunliffe says. They’re keeping GST and the extraordinarily flat tax structure that is the hallmark of the neo-liberal dream.
        • Anne 21.1.1.3

          6 July 2014 at 5:35 pm

          They’ve changed the rhetoric on the Super scheme KJT with particular emphasis on the person who, for one reason or another, can no longer work after the age of 60. They have included an interim payment that will be “no less” than the actual Super payment. I presume it will be available to those who have spent their life doing hard physical labour and whose bodies are worn out, or people with health problems and/or disabilities.

          Could it be they finally listened to many of us here on The Standard who have been running a bit of a campaign on this subject? 😉
          • phillip ure 21.1.1.3.1

            6 July 2014 at 5:47 pm

            if labour clearly explain those early-qualifying details..

            ..raising super won’t be a problem..

            ..but they haven’t explained that enough yet..
            • KJT 21.1.1.3.1.1

              6 July 2014 at 6:06 pm

              I think that we should be heading towards more universality, not less.

              Not to mention the current criteria for “jobseeker” is, anyone who can lift a paintbrush with their tongue.

              “We cannot afford it” is the Neo-liberal catch cry.
              Once Labour starts reducing it the next bunch of RWNJ’s will reduce and privatise it further.
              The problem with Kiwisaver also is that it is simply privatisation of super. We already know how well privatisation of essential services works.

              The fact that only 3% of elderly live in poverty compared with 25% of children…………
              And almost no children lived in poverty, in the 60’s and 70’s, when we had a meaningful child welfare payment.

              Shows the effectiveness of UBI in reducing poverty.
              • phillip ure …

                6 July 2014 at 6:12 pm

                @ kjt..

                ..i totally agree with you (ideologically)…

                ..i’m for universality. @ 60..

                /.i’m for partial-nationalisation of key/sin-industries..

                ..i’m for ubi as a giant poverty-killer..

                ..i’m 4 a 4 day work-week-weeks/job-shaaring..

                ..i’m just talking about what is needed to be done to sell that particular labour policy to those with the knee-jerk negative-reactions..(i include myself in that group..)

                ..for this election-campaign..
              • Colonial Viper …

                6 July 2014 at 10:20 pm

                I think that we should be heading towards more universality, not less.

                Yep. Breaking a universal system up with exceptions and thresholds just makes it easy for the Tories to wreck properly the next time they take power. And there is always a next time.
          • Colonial Viper 21.1.1.3.2

            6 July 2014 at 10:18 pm

            Could it be they finally listened to many of us here on The Standard who have been running a bit of a campaign on this subject? 😉

            I think they listened to us enough to do a bit of extra internal polling on the topic, and found that they better change emphasis, if not actually change course…
22. Jrobin 22

    6 July 2014 at 8:33 pm

    Labour will probably have to compromise on their Super plans anyway as they will be in coalition with the Greens. This may be the first policy to go once negotiations happen post election. They are going to be a lively govt. after the deadbeats and plastic people we’ve had to tolerate for the last six years. Can’t wait
23. dimebag russell 23

    6 July 2014 at 8:40 pm

    the country will go forward now when Labour wins.
    ipredict that for sure.
24. Mike the Savage One 24

    6 July 2014 at 11:56 pm

    Well, I followed the speech via life stream, read some of the articles about Cunliffe’s bio in the NZ Herald (believe it or not), and I an starting to wonder, perhaps there is still some hope?!

    My main worry is the mainstream media, and that Gower character on TV3 was already at it again, in their 6pm news, trying to catch Cunliffe out on some figures, and picking a few words and phrases, to throw doubt into viewer’s minds.

    TV One were rather more balanced and cautiously positive about the speech and the new policy planning for 2,000 more teachers.

    Education is an area most will be concerned about, and charter schools and national standards are still rejected by many, or at least viewed with scepticism.

    The message is clearly, if you have a family with young kids, or are keen to start a family, Labour has more to offer, it seems.

    I remain very apprehensive towards Labour and leader Cunliffe, and will follow what else they will announce and deliver over the coming weeks. The alternative budget was still very much “Labour Light Blue” kind of stuff.

    For the many younger, single voters, who are in rather large numbers disinterested in politics, this will not be enough to bring in additional votes.
25. Lexie 25

    7 July 2014 at 9:33 am

    This policy needs to be fully costed, Cunliffe needs to be fully briefed prior to policy release on likely questions to be asked from media. Such as how many school pupils there are, to explain the overall cost and how are all the extra buildings needed for reduced class size going to be funded.

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