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Definitely not the sewer

Written By: - Date published: 5:16 pm, July 1st, 2009 - 54 comments
Categories: blogs, humour - Tags:

The sewer

The sewer

This post by Scott Yorke over at Imperator Fish amused me. It is such an apt description of the differences between the two major political partisan blogs in New Zealand.

I like to visit The Standard now and then. There’s an occasional gem to be found there, although an angry hectoring tone largely dominates. The main theme is that the Nats are evil bastards who will eat our children if we let them. Contrast this with the most popular Right blog, Kiwiblog, where the evil bastards who will eat our children if we let them are the Left.

Being a dull moderate with no desire to save anyone from being eaten, I find the polemic style of argument tedious. But Kiwiblog also seems to be the domain of a number of seriously mentally ill people with real “issues”. It is my impression that those on the Left in this country don’t generally want to have their opponents killed. Whereas on Kiwiblog there are frequent calls for the death penalty, flogging, and other unpleasant punishments.

So, while I often shake my head at what I find, I don’t tend to leave The Standard’s website wanting to throw up.

The Standard’s site has been down a bit of late. it may be up again by the time you read this, and I hope it is. Where else am I going to steal my material from?

We are a partisan blog given to robust debate between people with differing viewpoints. That is what people come to read and comment on. This causes the growth in the site that gives us our growing pangs of outgrowing our hosts. But we definitely do not tolerate the ‘self-regulated’ (ie bullying) behavior of the Kiwiblog comments section. It is commonly known as the sewer for good reason.

Don’t worry Scott, I think that our recent outages are (crosses fingers) over. The new site requires more tuning to speed performance. It is set to being a bit conservative at present. However it will shortly resume full functionality for all of the readers. Umm that sounds a bit like the country during this NACT interregnum.

Feel free to garner intellectual property. But if you had to rely on us for your income, you’d be broke 😈 We don’t even have a copyright notice.

54 comments on “Definitely not the sewer ”

  1. Rex Widerstrom 1

    What sort of weak kneed lilly livered gutless commie baby eating bastard doesn’t want to hang someone with the temerity to disagree with from a lampost with piano wire, then dimember them and feast on their still-warm entrails by the light of a full moon? You got something against democracy, pal?

    It’s people like you who are the thin end of the wedge. Next thing you’ll be ordering Korean food from that nice place on Queen Street and thus giving comfort to Kim Jong Il. There’s just no depths to which the left won’t stoop, is there?

  2. George Darroch 2

    This is often a very hostile environment, and one that spends the great majority of its time in attacks against the National Party. It’s your blog to run as you want, but it shouldn’t surprise you when people see you in this way.

    • felix 2.1

      I believe lprent was pretty much in agreement with Scott’s analysis. Did I miss something?

    • lprent 2.2

      That is its purpose. As Felix says, I agree with Scott, but that is where we (well at least I do) want the site to be perceived in exactly that way.

      The Standard is a partisan blog site of the left. Of course it spends time having a good look at the NACT’s, criticising their performance and poking fun at them. Especially now that they are government. It does do some stuff on the left side of the spectrum, but that is generally just general criticism of strategies.

      What would you prefer that we did? Spend our time navel gazing? I get enough of that when I turn up at LEC’s, branch meetings, conferences, congresses,, and other party events. I’d hate to inflict that on people that didn’t want to see it.

  3. Tim Ellis 3

    Fair enough points LP, but I think that many of the posters here are far more extreme than DPF is from the other side. Zetetic, SP and Marty are hardly moderate in their postings. Eddie seems to be getting more extreme of late. Tane used to be quite reasonable, and din’t get personal. IrishBill can be quite cantankerous but he is honest with his opinions. Rocky is passionate about what she beleives in, but does seem to want actual debate rather than abuse. Dancer seems to me to be the most moderate posters here.

    But the tone of some fo the posters recently suggests that they are actively trying to incite flame wars in the comments thread, for reasons that I can’t quite understand.

    By comparison, the folk over at kiwipolitico manage to debate forcefully and constructively without getting abusive.

    • andy 3.1

      Tim you are attributing things to LP that he did not say, nowhere was the comment made that DPF was extreme and the standardistas were not. He admits partisanship!

      The post is about the content of the comments sections and the difference in comments style/tone between blogs. People get banned here for being rude, not for challenging the hosts as opposed to DPF. You or I would be banned quick smart here for threatening personal harm on a person or group as opposed to the regular bile from the sewer.

      Find any random thread at kiwiblog and the standard, compare and contrast the tone, give me examples!

      Be honest!

      See nice and polite, go see how sonic or mynameisjack is traeted at the bog!

      • Tim Ellis 3.1.1

        Andy, I don’t read the comments section at kb very often, but suffice to say I think mnij gets what he deserves. He’s a troll who seems to take perverse pleasure at winding people up.

        • andy 3.1.1.1

          Fair enough about MNIJ, but you have to admit genuine criticism is not treated so well there most times.

          I don’t read the comments section at kb very often

          Thats because you have a turbo RSS feeder set to the standard and the ability to post a reasonable argument within 5 mins of a new post being put up 🙂

    • lprent 3.2

      kiwipolitico is trying for a different type of commentator audience than we are here. Far more measured, more academic, and a whole lot quieter. The posts are often a whole lot longer than we’d do here and are often more researched and thoughtful.

      Here we have shorter punchier posts, expressing much stronger opinions of the poster, usually with links to other material if people want to carry on looking at the topic (and often followed up with links in the comments). It is a whole different style – a lot less academic, and therefore more readable to a larger audience. I’m pretty sure that Anita, Lew, Pablo, and Jafa would agree with that as the general distinction.

      In fact The Standard is in a similar style to kiwiblog from the other side of the left/right political divide – overall not too far from centre. We often get critics of our views from both sides, as does DPF. The main difference is that we do far less “indeed” posts, and the comments section is better managed.

      But hey there are a lot of us, and only one of DPF, what else can you expect. Anyway, the nett result is that the comments section here is raucous, noisy, informative, and entertaining as hell, even to the moderators who have to read it as duty rather than pleasure. The rules are largely set so we don’t have to read endless drivel I found when I started reading comments here in 2007.

      That is what the post was on, because I happened on Scotts post. It expressed almost exactly where I want the site to be.

      • Anita 3.2.1

        I totally agree with that distinction 🙂 They are two very different blogs with two very different styles and different audiences and atmospheres to match.

        I have (very short) moments of wishing one was more like the other, but mostly I just enjoy the different perspectives.

    • Eddie 3.3

      Tane used to say that blog debates should be like a bar fight – you go in hard, you fight with your allies and for what you believe, and you don’t give an inch on your principles.

      Hell, I remember him calling Talley’s corporate scum http://www.thestandard.org.nz/talleys-corporate-scum/ and putting up the youtube of Malcolm X talking about house negroes. http://www.thestandard.org.nz/x-rated/

      He will be gutted if he’s reading that you’re labeling him the nice moderate one. 🙂

      Guess we all tend to put on rose-tinted glasses remembering the past.

      Of the current batch, I see Marty as very sincere and Zet, well Zet’s got an agenda and that’s to challenge the fundamentals of the right’s worldview and Zet thinks the way to do it is to show your heroes’ flaws. They’re both improving as blog writers very nicely, as is The Sprout whose piece on the weekend was the best we’ve had in some time.

  4. Ag 4

    If you want to know why The Standard is as it is and Kiwiblog is as it is, the following ebook explains it pretty well, especially the flogging stuff.

    http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf

    Weirdly enough, if this were the sixties, the left blog comment sections would be more like Kiwiblog’s. How times change.

    • lprent 4.1

      Good book. I scanned through it on the bus yesterday to about page 80. If the jam on the bridge doesn’t clear up soon, then I’ll finish it tonight. (nice iphone..)

      Reminds me of some personalities that I have known…..

  5. Yep, fair cop.

    The comments section at KB can undoubtedly be gruesome although not all the time.

    There is more of a willingness to discussion things here and more of an attempt to rationalise points of view. As TE notes, that isn’t universal and without wishing to sound pompous, some of the newer posters are more hat than cattle.

    I also think this site has gone through a natural progression from defending a government to attacking one. Perhaps that’s what TE was referring to.

    LP deserves enormous credit – I think he’s got a clear vision of what we wants to achieve, is passionate about his views, and puts in a huge amount of work to make it happen. (That also describes DPF :))

    Ah well, I spose I better get back to being negative and critical according to some of my critics.

    • lprent 5.1

      Use the Archives and look back at 2007 and early 2008. Be prepared to wince as you look at the early posts by some of our ”older’ posters. They got better the more that they wrote.

      However don’t look at my posts….

      • Anita 5.1.1

        You fuxed the archives  thanks!!!! 🙂

        • lprent 5.1.1.1

          Yep. Now if the bloody elections, by-elections, hosting hassles, moving house, etc etc would just stop for a few weeks……

      • Daveski 5.1.2

        Fair point. Now, does the same apply to my comments??

        • lprent 5.1.2.1

          …some of the newer posters are more hat than cattle.

          They always improve.. Mind you I think most of the ones you mention are pretty good in writing style. They surely get their points across. It is the opinions and attitude that you object to

  6. mike 6

    ‘Dull moderate’ my arse. Scott Yorke is as neutral as me

  7. infused 7

    This place is pretty good, if you skip Zetetics posts.

  8. Some of the most sick, hateful comments I have ever heard in my life were from people on the left after 9/11.

    The fact that people were rightly giving sympathy to the states, drove them nuts.

    It was vile.

    What kind of pathetic person would step on flowers left to the victims of 9/11 and replace it with anti American slogans.

    • Zetetic 8.1

      Agreed. All that ‘nuke the sand-n#iggers’ stuff was disgusting. Oh, wait.

  9. Ah The Standard is just lucky that Idiot/Savant doesn’t allow comments 😉

    Just kidding, yeah the comments section here is certainly a huge step up from the sewer. I think some kudos for that has to go to those on the right who hang around here and make intelligent points in opposition to what the majority say – like The Baron & Gingercrush.

    • lprent 9.1

      I’d agree. But it is a big ask for a single person to monitor a active comments section. I/S would tend to attract the most obnoxious comments.

      I suspect that he (unlike me and Irish and (sob) Tane), probably didn’t make a habit of jumping on trolls from a great height and then have a close inspection of the resulting goop to see how this attack compared to the last one. I/S is very rational and would probably moderate on that basis. I just like looking at the mess. Mind you I like MMOG FPS’s as well, but moderating has more gore.

      • jarbury 9.1.1

        I think he used to allow comments, must have got a bit much though. I think my point was that if he did allow comments he’d probably be quite the competition for The Standard 😉

        I wonder what Red Alert’s readership is like.

  10. Dean 10

    lprent, I think your blinkers are showing again. The post you’re quoting has a good point – Kiwiblog comments are crazy 8 bonkers, with that I can agree. But this site has it’s own fair share too, and as I recall you’re more than willing to make excuses for them.

    After all, who could forget such thestandard.org.nz gems as:

    Jasper on the January 22, 2009 at 4:34 pm saying:

    “Irish Bill

    I commented on a previous post that Key was waiting to see what Obama does.

    Key is taking “where america leads, we follow’ rhetoric a bit too far.

    Fucking useless gobshite. Someone needs to push him down some more stairs.”

    Or BLip on Monday 9th of Febuary, 2009 saying:

    “Greatest Living New Zealander? Douglas should be strung up at No 1 The Terrace and his rotting corpse hanged in the foyer as a reminder to those trolls who inhabit that evil place of what becomes of those who seek to make the rich richer and poor poorer. Then there will be justice.’

    These are just two examples I bothered to save. I’m sure there are many more.

    In summing up: Pot? This is Kettle. Black.

    • poptart 10.1

      “bothered to save” ?

      weird behaviour dude.

      • Dean 10.1.1

        poptart, I understand that it’s unfortunate that commenters on this site have been vile with their writing, but if all you can say about the matter is to ignore what they’ve said and instead concentrate on me having saved it then I’m afraid you’ve proved my point.

        Cheers, r0b. You are the very bastion of reasoned, intelligent debate too.

    • r0b 10.2

      Dean loves his pot kettle black line, and giving lessons in morality to those who need them less than him.

    • felix 10.3

      He’s a weird guy.

      • r0b 10.3.1

        Truly. Next time he tries “pot kettle black” I might try “mote eye beam”

      • Dean 10.3.2

        Not a single comment to make on what I quoted?

        What a suprise!

        Perhaps you’d be better off pretending the “left” are all really, really nice people who don’t wish harm upon anyone.

        • r0b 10.3.2.1

          What sort of comment would you like Dean? After about 100,000 comments here you’ve found a couple that are similar in tone to Kiwiblog? Well good for you big fellah. Have a biscuit.

          • Dean 10.3.2.1.1

            “What sort of comment would you like Dean? After about 100,000 comments here you’ve found a couple that are similar in tone to Kiwiblog? Well good for you big fellah. Have a biscuit.”

            Quite. Let’s just not mention Zetetic. But please, continue to pretend youre in solidarity in a class war with your fellow downtrodden warriors r0b. It’s highly amusing.

            kiwiblog is worse than here, am i right?

            “Attempt to wrap your limited inteellect around the concepts.”

            Oh, LP. Always so ready to be reasonable, except when you take offence. Perhaps Helen will invent a time machine and not gut all the up and coming talent out of the Labour party the next time around.

            Perhaps she won’t even force through the foreshore and seabed bill! Wouldn’t that be something?

        • felix 10.3.2.2

          “Hard, Kick, Pricks” may also be appropriate…

        • lprent 10.3.2.3

          I didn’t say that people have to be nice here. They just have to conform to what we consider is a reasonable standard of behaviour. Read the policy. Attempt to wrap your limited inteellect around the concepts.

          In neither case you quoted were any other participants in the comments affected. Nor were any of the posters. Nor did either comment attempt to threadjack, link whore, or do anything else that I would get annoyed by.

          So what are you waffling about? Two people letting off steam in a way that upset your sensitive wee soul? Sounds to me as if you are becoming too enamoured of your own delusions about how ‘lefties’ are meant to act. That it doesn’t comform to reality is your problem, not ours…

          I can’t be bothered being nice, and this really isn’t a good place to be if you cannot stand up for yourself.

          • Dean 10.3.2.3.1

            “So what are you waffling about? Two people letting off steam in a way that upset your sensitive wee soul? Sounds to me as if you are becoming too enamoured of your own delusions about how ‘lefties’ are meant to act. That it doesn’t comform to reality is your problem, not ours ”

            Actually LP, I believe you’ve become far too enamoured of your own delusions about how the so called right wing are meant to act.

            “It is commonly known as the sewer for good reason.” you said, talking about Kiwiblog, which is fair enough. Do you realise this site has been called an echo chamber for entirely the same reason?

            Tell me again how outraged you were about people letting off steam about matters to do with Clark and her sexuality? (r0b, please vent on this. I find it highly amusing given your defence of the next point.)

            Tell me again how outraged you were about Labour talking about Brash and his affair in parliament?

            Actually, tell me about Labour attacking Nick Smith for his mental problems? I’ve seen diehard Labour scumbags try and make excuses for that last one, but I’d hope that you’re not willing to do so as soon as it’s convenient.

            Feel free to take the moral high ground on this matter as much as you like, LP, but for you to accuse anyone of being sensitive is about as interesting as Labour voting to repeal the EFA. You do rememeber the EFA, don’t you? That piece of legislation you so valiantly defended? Let’s just not get into the absolute arse you made of yourself over the efforts of various people to protest against the glorious people’s copyright act.

            • lprent 10.3.2.3.1.1

              Both Helen and Peter are a personal friends of mine. I’ve known them for about 20 years. The rumours from the Christian right (where a lot of it comes from) and the political enemies simply aren’t true.

              I grew up in Mt Albert, and I was there during the 1981 election – even doing work for National for family reasons. As far as I can tell the rumour about Helen was started by National activists in that election for electoral reasons – it was thought to be a winnable seat by national on the retirement of Freer. I heard those rumours in 1981 as a kind of a nudge-nudge, wouldn’t it be great if it was true.

              Wishart and all of the other prurient arseholes like you are simply lying about Helens sexual preferences. Your motivations are pure envy as far as I can tell. You simply don’t like women to be successful. A case of clitoris envy?

              Brash – well I wasn’t on the blogs at that point – it was 2006? However I’d point out that I don’t like lynch mobs. I don’t care if it is Peters of Brash.

              Smith. Well have a look around the site. Those get suppressed here pretty promptly.

              Now look at the sewer about Helen and Peter. That is why I call it the sewer.

              BTW: Idiot, I still defend the EFA. The legislation that the NACT’s come back with is likely to have a lot of the same types of provisions in it. The changes to electoral law in 1993 were inadequate looking back after 15 years or so.

  11. burt 11

    After the election National have been cleaning up the sewer, shooting rats to feed to Labour. Another one down the hatch today….

  12. I do miss Robinsod though…

  13. The point I was trying to make on my site was that, while some of the opinion on this Standard is extreme, there generally isn’t the same level of nasty racist/misogynist/homophobic frothing as that you’ll often find in the comments section of Kiwiblog.

    I don’t necessarily believe Farrar agrees with much of what his regulars say, but his moderation policy (or lack of one) enables those people.

    I’m happy for the Standard to continue to expose the baby-eating Nats. I may not always agree with you guys, but at least I don’t leave this site feeling sick.

    • Maynard J 13.1

      Can you pass that onto Dean? He has saved two (2) comments and is convinced that the sites are just as bad as each other.

  14. craig 14

    The largest difference between Kiwiblog and The Standard in that DPF doesn’t really moderate comments.

    In terms of blog posts however I’d say The Standard is more extreme than Kiwiblog – it’s probably somewhere between Kiwiblog and Whaleoil (except obviously on the left).

  15. Craig, you said: “In terms of blog posts however I’d say The Standard is more extreme than Kiwiblog it’s probably somewhere between Kiwiblog and Whaleoil (except obviously on the left).”

    I partly agree. It’s not Farrar’s posts that get to me. It the rabid nasty comments that often follow.

    But comparing anyone to Whaleoil? No way – that’s guys out on his own.

  16. jarbury 16

    Farrar seems to be getting more right-wing lately though. Some posts have seen him promote a flat tax rate, be sympathetic to a military coup and promote the views of a very hardcore right-wing US lobbyist.

    Seems like he’s been hanging out with the neocons in Washington DC a bit much.

  17. StephenR 17

    I think he’s been ‘a flat tax kind of guy’ for ages, or really an ‘ACT guy in National’ for no reasons I can really understand.

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