Deportee

Written By: - Date published: 12:48 pm, December 2nd, 2015 - 101 comments
Categories: Abuse of power, australian politics, crime, International, Kelvin Davis, Minister for International Embarrassment, workers' rights - Tags: , , ,

In a world awash with people transiting from one country to another, it’s rare to meet someone who has moved involuntarily, under the threat of being shipped from his urban incarceration to a far worse prison island thousands of miles away.

We are sadly familiar with news of migrant families who risk everything to get to a better life.

We are less exposed to the reality of people who have no reasonable option but to leave their families behind, to never again see their home, to lose everything they own, and not even get to hug their child one last time.

But that’s the situation faced by of New Zealand’s newest immigrants. I’m not going to identify him. I’ll call him Doug for the purposes of this post. Doug’s home is Australia, but his passport says he’s a Kiwi. He’s been in New Zealand for a few days, his first time back here since his parents took him across the Tasman as a toddler a couple of decades ago.

He left New Zealand in short pants, and returned in handcuffs, with nothing much more than a bag of clothes and his strong Ocker accent. Doug’s a 501er. A deportee.

Does he want to be here?

Does he fuck.

Doug respects his Kiwi heritage, but his life is in Australia. His mum, his siblings, his son. They’re there, he’s here.

And it’s not bloody fair, mate.


I meet Doug at his rellie’s suburban home in a provincial city. He’s bright, clear eyed and thoughtful. He chain smokes rollies throughout the interview. Afterwards, as I leave, I see him in the backyard, sitting in the sun on a wooden stool, smoking yet another ciggie and texting on a budget cellphone. Not texting anyone here in NZ, obviously. All the Kiwis he knows are in the house behind me.

Curiously, one of the things Doug was given on arrival was a guide on how to deal with the media. There were a couple of journos at the airport, but he gave them the flick. I’m glad he chose to speak to me. I’ve edited some answers to avoid specific identifying details, and while Doug was open and honest with me, I’ve chosen to omit some of the more harrowing aspects of how the process has left him emotionally. All I’ll say is that he’s doing it tough.

Thanks to Standard readers and authors who suggested questions. I start by asking Doug about his life in Australia.


 

TRP: Where’s home?

Doug: Sydney, out west. Never even left the state, really. Never been up the east coast or anything.

Were you working?

Yep, owned a business, employed 4 subbies. We supplied goods and services to retailers.

But you ended up in jail. How long for?

I was sentenced to two months, but when I was due for parole, I was told that they were going to send me to NZ and when I said I’d appeal, they said I’d have to serve the parole inside. So they locked me up for the length of the parole period. Another six months.

What happened to the business?

It’s gone. It crumbled. I couldn’t run it from jail and couldn’t sell it from there either. No cellphones, no internet. I was moved around from centre to centre. I couldn’t keep up.

You’ve had some previous issues?

Yep. Look, I grew up in the Western suburbs. It wasn’t easy. It’s tough. I made mistakes, but I paid for them, cleaned up, got it together. I’ve rented a bit, but mostly lived with mum.


Doug and I talk more about his life in Australia. About league, about cricket, about growing up in the vast western suburbs of Sydney. He’s open about going off track as a young man. But he says he’s clean and he looks it. He looks me straight in the eye when he answers questions. No bullshit.

He’s a physically strong young man, fit and quietly powerful in his manner. Not threatening, but self-assured. But that strength disappeared when we talk about his family.

All his siblings are there. His mum. His son. Doug’s boy lives with his ex. She’s since remarried and when I ask him if she’d bring their son to visit him here in NZ, the façade crumbles. It’s obvious that it’s not going to happen. I look at him and wished I hadn’t asked.


TRP: When did you realise you were going to be deported?

Doug: Well, I got some warnings that it might happen in the past, but it didn’t seem real. I wasn’t a rapist or a murderer, y’know? I’m not a threat to national security! And I was over my younger stuff. I just didn’t think it would happen to me.

What’s the mood of the Kiwis in the detention facility?

Frustrated, desperate. It’s not too bad in some ways, better than jail. There’s no work, but there are activities. Family access is better, too. Much better than jail. But it’s hard taking civil action in there. It’s difficult to organise. There’s a lot of depression. The asylum seekers too.

A week ago, in the detention centre, you were given a choice; Christmas Island or NZ. That’s right?

They got a few of us Kiwis together then one by one put papers in front of us. They told us if we didn’t volunteer to be deported to NZ, we’d be off to Christmas Island then and there. I had enough, I signed. I read the papers after I signed.

Why not go to Christmas Island?

Well, we knew a bit about it from guys who’d been in and out of there and from the news. We had TV and some internet access in the detention centre. It wasn’t a good option. My mum made me promise I’d go to NZ if they threatened me with Christmas Island.


We talk for a while about the residency appeal process. Despite John Key’s assurance that the deportees could easily appeal from here, there’s a snag.

First they have to pay back the Australian Federal Government the cost of the flight home.

Not just their flight, but return fares for the two cops who accompany each deportee on the plane. The best part of three grand before they can even get started. That minor detail must have gone down Key’s memory hole.

And the appeal process is deemed to have started when he was first moved to an immigration detention centre.

All the work done on his behalf and all the letters he sent himself from prison didn’t count. He sent dozens of letters fighting for his residency. Immigration claim they only received one. He lost two months of the appeal process without even knowing it.


TRP: When you were given the choice of Christmas Island or voluntary deportation, did you have access to a lawyer?

Doug: No, it was sign or else. No lawyer. I did have help in my residency appeal, but no legal aid. It’s thousands to fight deportation and get residency, $5 -10 thousand minimum. But I think I had nearly got the appeal granted and my residency sorted and maybe that’s why they moved on me in the detention centre.

Did you have reasonable choices?

Not really. It wasn’t so bad in the detention centre because we had better communication, cellphones, but not smartphones, and I could meet the immigration case officer.  But I don’t think that would be the case on Christmas Island. The process is designed to break you down. And it did. I was falling apart. So I signed the papers.

Did your family see you off at the airport?

No, they weren’t allowed. I was handcuffed from the centre to the airport and put on the plane. They only took the cuffs off on board. I guess they didn’t want to scare the stewardesses.


Despite John Key’s assurances that leaving Australia is a good option, there is no extra support immediately available. Effectively, it’s just like he’s just been released from a Kiwi prison, but he’s committed no crime here. There is no immediate help for the extraordinary psychological strain he is dealing with. No ongoing counselling, no guidance to orientate him to his new life.


TRP: What did you know about deportation to NZ?

Doug: I saw Key on TV saying it was a good idea to go. He said we could fight it from NZ and we’d be free.

But you’re not free. You have conditions put on you haven’t you? You’re kind of on parole here, aren’t you?

Yep. It’s parole. The guys from Corrections have been good, I think they are sorting a benefit out, but the town I’m in is pretty small. It’s like a farm! And there’s no work. I’ll probably have to move to Wellington or Auckland. I want to work.

How were the police when you arrived?

Good. Really good! The police and the parole people were really helpful. It was funny, really. The police and the corrections guys had the new laws with them at the airport and they had to keep reading them to work out what they were supposed to do. It’s all new to them too.

John Key said you could fight it from NZ. Now that you’re here, do you think that’s realistic?

No, not really. Your chances drop, because you’re no longer a priority. You’re gone.


I met Doug in the provincial city he has been relocated to. He’s being put up by relatives. They’ve never met before, but they are the only people in New Zealand whose names he knows. It’s been weird for them, too. They were vetted by Corrections and their home given the once over. It’s not like they asked to be in this situation, but they’re determined to help.


TRP: What about the locals? Have you been asked why you’re here?

Doug: Actually, a taxi driver asked if I was one of the deported and I also got asked in a coffee shop. I told them I was a tourist.

What would you say to the Australian Government?

Lighten up! Relax the laws, its hurting people who aren’t really a risk. I understand for murderers and serious crims, but … But Turnbull is pretty firm and the immigration minister, Dutton, he’s evil.

What would you say to the NZ Government?

There’s not a lot NZ can do. It’s nothing to do with New Zealand. That meeting (Key and Turnbull) did nothing.

What can ordinary Kiwi’s do?

Not much. In Oz there’s a facebook page, iwi, which has some good stuff and there was Kelvin.

Kelvin Davis? The MP?

Yep. I heard he went to Christmas Island. But there’s not much Kiwis can do, really.


Doug does have the support of his relatives here in NZ. But he’s staying with people he’s never previously met. They’re his blood, but they’re strangers, too. I’m struck by just how wonderful it is that they would take him in. They’re not judging him, they’re not prying into his life. They’re just there for him because it’s the right thing to do.

But they’re not counsellors, and it’s pretty clear that being exiled from all he knows is taking a toll on Doug. He’s bewildered by what’s happened, unsure of what his future will be and he is desperately missing his family.

Everything Doug knew, loved and relied on is gone from his life.

He’s a stranger in a strange land, a man alone.


TRP: Is this fair? The deportation?

Doug. No. Definitely not.

What do you want to do?

I want to go home.


 

 

 

 

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101 comments on “Deportee”

  1. Muttonbird 1

    Good interview.

    Have you considered submitting this to the Stuff reader’s section?

    There’s things in here which the wider public need to know, imo. Things which our supposed journalists can’t be bothered covering now that Campbell and other investigative reporting has gone.

    That the deportees have to pay for their flight plus those of two AUS border force cops, for instance.

    • aerobubble 1.1

      The basic argument for the policy is that more kiwis are in oz than Aussies in nz.
      This is easily countered, as proportionally the Aussies own most of our banking sector.
      Key should standup and just indicate a policy review of banking ownership.

      • John Shears 1.1.1

        +1 Aerobubble JK could start with Westpac who handle most of the government’s banking I believe. Sadly he is unlikely to do anything about that or the plight of “Doug” and his fellows.

        • aerobubble 1.1.1.1

          Thing is he only needs to indicate a shake out to see Aussie banks backing pro kiwi Australian politicians

  2. vto 2

    Good effort trp, and chin up to the interviewee. Sucks.

  3. Ad 3

    Great work TRP. Frank and fresh.

  4. BM 4

    I was sentenced to two months, but when I was due for parole, I was told that they were going to send me to NZ and when I said I’d appeal, they said I’d have to serve the parole inside. So they locked me up for the length of the parole period. Another six months.

    How can you be sent to prison for two months and have a parole period of six months?

    Or is that a typo and was meant to be two years?

    • Normally, the parole would be served in the community, but once he was marked for deportation, they transferred him to an immigration detention centre for the parole period. Or do you mean ‘why was it 6 months?’. If its the latter, I don’t know what the normal parole periods are in Oz. But note it was a two month sentence, so at the lower end of the scale.

      • BM 4.1.1

        Normally parole is a percentage of the prison term.

        • te reo putake 4.1.1.1

          Ok, I’ll take your word for that. You may be more familiar with the intricacies of the Australian penal code than I, but I’m not going to speculate how 😉 However, those were the periods he told me and I can only assume he’s correct. I don’t see why it much matters.

          • BM 4.1.1.1.1

            To be honest, if he was on parole for 6 months, his prison term was more likely two years.

            For example in Victoria

            If a sentence of less than two years but not less than one year is imposed, the court may set a non-parole period.

            The non-parole period must be at least six months less than the term of imprisonment and must be in respect of the aggregate sentence that the offender is liable to serve under all the sentences imposed.

            http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4517.0Explanatory+Notes12013

            if it’s two years , it wasn’t a minor crime he got done for.

          • Grindlebottom 4.1.1.1.2

            I wondered the same thing, but I skipped over it and kept reading as I thought maybe Doug just mashed together a short parole period plus detention awaiting deportation. It didn’t seem important enough to dwell on.

            • BM 4.1.1.1.2.1

              Maybe that’s what happened.

              It’s just the crux of the interview is about how badly treated Doug has been, turfed out of his country because of a trivial two month prison sentence, which I agree is pretty rough, if that is indeed the case.

              If it was actually a two year sentence that completely changes the picture.

              • Tracey

                Is that the crux BM? For you maybe.

                For me this is the crux

                Yeah just like the PM didn’t think the bit about not being able to appeal until you have paid back 3 airfares didnt seem important enough to dwell on… and that NZ won’t give legal aid for the deportees to challenge the decision in the Aussie Courts or that the deportees will have to travel to Australia to appear in Court for their Appeal or it will be thrown out.

              • Grindlebottom

                S.501 (3A) (b) of their Migration Act 1958 requires their Immigration Minister to cancel a person’s visa if they are serving a prison sentence BM, no matter how long the sentence. I think that probably applied to Doug.

                Deportee

              • BM, I have got some clarification. His original sentence was longer and he appealed successfully that it was too long. Long story short, his prison time was cut, but his parole time was not. It came to 8 months in total, all eventually served in jail or detention centres.

                If he hadn’t appealed the length of sentence, he might have actually spent less time inside overall and may, possibly, have not even been considered for deportation.

            • Tracey 4.1.1.1.2.2

              Yeah just like the PM didn’t think the bit about not being able to appeal until you have paid back 3 airfares didnt seem important enough to dwell on… and that NZ won’t give legal aid for the deportees to challenge the decision in the Aussie Courts or that the deportees will have to travel to Australia to appear in Court for their Appeal or it will be thrown out.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.2

        So far as I can tell, in Aussie, it depends on the non-parole period set by the court, and other early-release options.

        In other words, I think BM’s premise is drivel.

    • tracey 4.2

      Interesting that was the thing that most caught your eye as worthy of a response BM.

      How could Key have forgotten the deportees have to pay for their and 2 cops airfares before being able to appeal was m first pressing question.

      • Muttonbird 4.2.1

        Yep. As soon as I saw BM has commented I knew it would be about the veracity of some small part of the Deportee’s claims, rather than the wider issue of the policy and human story.

        That’s just how the Nats and their followers roll. Pick apart the detail while ignoring the issue.

        #dirtypolitics

        • aerobubble 4.2.1.1

          The right warn us about govt, yet never about their bad govt. Leaky homes.
          Take rheumatic fever, govt deregulation leds to lower standards on health care, or work safety. Pike river mine.
          Trust them, they know what they are doing, in doing less than nothing, I.e cutting govt.
          the abuse of kiwis in Australia undermines free trade in services, individuals from nz find the costs of providing services in Australia higher than those of residents. if they have to become residents then why have free borders! Worse the argument for the policy, that there are more kiwis in oz than ozzies in nz is a rotten one, since there are many more Aussie banks here.

          How quickly would they turn round if Key stood up to them and used the very same argument to reduce Aussie banking ownership to ‘fair’ proportional levels.

  5. tracey 5

    Great work TRP.

    “First they have to pay back the Australian Federal Government the cost of the flight home.

    Not just their flight, but return fares for the two cops who accompany each deportee on the plane. The best part of three grand before they can even get started. That minor detail must have gone down Key’s memory hole.

    And the appeal process is deemed to have started when he was first moved to an immigration detention centre.”

    How long do they have to appeal? I note you wrote that he has lost 2 months already but what is the end date?

    • I can try and follow up, but my understanding is that a likely deportation date is set for the day of release from jail. ie once the sentence is finished, you’re shipped out. If you appeal, then it appears the clock restarts from the day you arrive in the Immigration detention centre. Reading between the lines, I think Doug initially thought he could start the appeal process in jail and finish it while he was out on parole and getting on with his life.

      • tracey 5.1.1

        I got that too (your reading between the lines comment) and will try and see if there is a finite end point once the appeal clock starts running. Should be easy to find, though, what with the government being all transparent about this. 😉

    • Macro 5.2

      Australia is a country beset with bureaucracy … especially when it comes to immigration and welfare … I have just returned from 5 weeks there and my son-in-law tried to contact Centre Link (their WINZ) regarding an overpayment on two successive days. He waited on hold for over 3 hours each day. without any reply. As for an application for permanent residency the advice is – forget it -the cost is exorbitant and if one item is incorrect or omitted (and its not clear even for intelligent people with a Masters with first class Hons) sometimes just what is required – then you go to the bottom of the pile and have to reapply and pay the cost again.

  6. Macro 6

    Great Interview TRP. This really does deserve a wider audience.
    The true cost of the work of the Insane Dutton needs to be revealed to all Australians. He needs to go. He is bringing Australia into huge disrepute internationally for his extreme and inhumane policies.
    It is ironic that a country founded by deportees should resort to these measures, it never ceases to amaze me. One would have thought that they might contemplate first how their forebears felt about being transported from their country of origin.

  7. Grindlebottom 7

    I agree with others here TRP. This is a superb interview mate. Very insightful. Really well-written and easy to read. Illustrates perfectly the unfairness & inhumanity of this law change in Australia, and gives a reality check to those who think everyone deported back to NZ is some kind of evil, thuggish life-long criminal who deserves it.

    I hope you’re able to get this interview widely published. It’s a great human interest story & the subject’s topical. I’d hope it would be of interest to media here and in Oz/overseas if you could get into Stuff & The Herald.

    • Grindlebottom 7.1

      Does he want to be here?

      Does he fuck.

      Maybe change that last bit to “no way” or something 🙂

      • The nice thing about blogging is being able to get a bit sweary from time to time, Grindlebottom! And having heard Doug’s story, I think that one line is a pretty restrained response. ANZAC spirit my hairy arse! (whoops, there I go again).

        • Grindlebottom 7.1.1.1

          I’d like to see that interview in a mainstream paper is all TRP. Does he fuck is great for blogs! Ah what the heck, you’re right. An editor could just go does he f*** if they wanted to.

        • Once was Tim 7.1.1.2

          Don’t apologise – that’s EXACTLY what it’s become. It amuses me how great emphasis is put on things (by apologist politicians) like express lanes for Kiwis at airports and certain preferential treatment we get.
          I recall not THAT long ago (40 yrs – half a lifetime) when passports were not needed to travel Trans-Tasman, when Australian States searched your boot for fruit at the State Border (inter-state), and when for some bizarre reason I was given an Australian passport.
          Subsequently things have got worse incrementally – beginning with LITTLE Johnny Howard.
          ANNZAC spirit be fooked. It’s something that’s trotted out once or twice a year, but under current regimes on both sides of the Tasman is utterly meaningless.

          • Tracey 7.1.1.2.1

            ANZAC has been bastardised by the right govts of Oz and NZ to justify their militaristic support of the USA., their increased spying on citizens they object to, and the reduced transparency of their decision-making

  8. tracey 8

    “”If you are fighting a deportation case in Australia, you need access to your legal team, you need access to the court, you need to be able to attend court.
    “And furthermore litigation is stressful, it’s important to have the support of family and others around you at that time,” he said.
    “To say to people that they ought to return to the country that they come from and then seek to fight some sort of international legal battle is just ridiculous.
    “I’ve never heard it being suggested in relation to any other deportation case and it beggars belief that political leaders would think this was something that could be done.” Greg Barns, from the Australian Lawyers’ Alliance,

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/287552/deportation-appeals-from-nz-'absurd

    In the same article John Key was reported as saying

    “Prime Minister John Key said there was no ulterior motive.
    “It’s definitely not a trick,” he said. “They’ve altered the policy to allow them to come home and [Mr Turnbull’s] basic argument is, look, come back to New Zealand, put in your application or your application will be in, the minister will look at [it] in good faith.
    “It’ll be irrelevant of whether you’re in a detention centre or in New Zealand, it’ll be processed the same.”

    Amy Adams has said there is NO legal aid for those deportees who return to fight their appeals.

    • miravox 8.1

      That “good faith” bit must have been a bit of word vomit that escaped from his mouth.

      • Tracey 8.1.1

        It’s SO hard to know who to beieve;

        The NZ PM who has no influence on Australia; or
        The Lawyerr from Australia .

  9. Ergo Robertina 9

    It’s nice to hear the NZ police and corrections staff treated the deportees well, and it really is heartening that his relatives are helping out. This is an extraordinary situation.

    For anyone who missed it, Story on TV3 aired a rather poignant interview last week with Peina Clarke, a deportee in a motel in Te Atatu: http://www.3news.co.nz/tvshows/story/kiwi-convicts-a-perfect-recipe-for-re-offence-2015112319#axzz3t3y4hzfh

    • Tracey 9.1

      “It’s nice to hear the NZ police and corrections staff treated the deportees well, and it really is heartening that his relatives are helping out. This is an extraordinary situation.”

      Hear hear!

  10. Reality 10

    Thank you. Brilliant and sensitive interview and hopefully it can be circulated widely. Wonder why the PM omitted to mention the cost factor in appealing from NZ. He made it sound as if it was as easy as posting a letter.

  11. tracey 11

    Section 501 Migration Act

    You can read it here

    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ma1958118/s501.html

    Note “substantial criminal record” is defined as

    “Substantial criminal record

    (7) For the purposes of the character test, a person has a substantial criminal record if:

    (a) the person has been sentenced to death; or

    (b) the person has been sentenced to imprisonment for life; or

    (c) the person has been sentenced to a term of imprisonment of 12 months or more; or

    (d) the person has been sentenced to 2 or more terms of imprisonment, where the total of those terms is 12 months or more; or

    (e) the person has been acquitted of an offence on the grounds of unsoundness of mind or insanity, and as a result the person has been detained in a facility or institution; or

    (f) the person has:

    (i) been found by a court to not be fit to plead, in relation to an offence; and

    (ii) the court has nonetheless found that on the evidence available the person committed the offence; and

    (iii) as a result, the person has been detained in a facility or institution.”

    • Grindlebottom 11.1

      The bit that caught my eye tracey was this:

      3A) The Minister must cancel a visa that has been granted to a person if:

      …(b) the person is serving a sentence of imprisonment, on a full-time basis in a custodial institution, for an offence against a law of the Commonwealth, a State or a Territory.

      It seems like this might’ve been Doug’s undoing.

      • Tracey 11.1.1

        and the removal of Natural Justice as a component of the Minister’s decision-making…

        • Grindlebottom 11.1.1.1

          Yeah I saw that too, tracey. So fairness is actually legislated out of the process. Incredible just how fascistic this law change is.

          • RedLogix 11.1.1.1.1

            Exactly. That’s the thrust of my numerous comments on this issue for some time now.

            While we could tolerate, albeit unhappily, the 2001 changes that Howard forced on us, it is the more recent rules – rammed through the Federal Parliament under the pretext of fighting terrorism by Abbott early this year – which are truly noxious.

            1. The new rules are retrospective
            2. Detention is mandatory
            2. It can be indefinite
            3. Only the Minister (or delegated officials) may consider an appeal on administrative grounds only
            4.There is NO legal appeal

            I’ve spoken to a couple of other kiwis in the past week – both of them expressing considerable unease at their legal status here in Australia. It’s not a joke.

            • Detrie 11.1.1.1.1.1

              Basically this is bad law, constructed by evil, bigoted politicians and incompetent lawmakers. Sadly it is a reflection of their society as it seems these draconian laws are widely supported by most ‘law-abiding’ Australians, excluding of course their indigenous population who are also treated like animals, with few rights. http://bit.ly/badauzzies

  12. seeker 12

    WOW this is evil. Thankyou for sharing such a harrowing story with us Doug and TRP.
    I had no real idea how bad this situation was until this enlightening interview, showing ‘back to the future botany bay’ between Australia and New Zealand rather than Britain and Australia.
    Try and stay strong Doug. I have no family here either, but as you have found, thank God, many Kiwis are very kind and very strong and you have that in you because you are one of us from birth. Bless you.
    Dutton obviously hasn’t learned the lesson ‘do as you would be done by’ with regard to his ancestors who could well have been cruelly and unjustly deported from Britain.

  13. tracey 13

    I might be misunderstand, TRP, but the “Appeal” is really a Judicial Review??? expensive stuff usually.

    https://www.humanrights.gov.au/publications/background-paper-human-rights-issues-raised-visa-refusal-or-cancellation-under-sectio-4

    From reading a little bit, it seems Appeals will be a waste of time and money. Better to agitate for a change of Governemnt, which makes Little’s trip over there of some note IF the Aussie LP is convinced it is wrong to do this. Cos the new Minister of immigration under a Labour Government will have as wide a discretion to issue visas as the current one has to remove them?

    Migration Regulations 1994 (Cth), Schedule 5, clause 5001(c). The effect of that clause is that a person who has been removed from Australia following cancellation of their visa because of a substantial criminal record, past or present criminal conduct, or a combination of past or present criminal and general conduct will not be eligible to be granted any visa to which criteria 5001 applies.

    • Yes, it could be a judicial review. We both used the term appeal when we were talking and I didn’t go into the detail. Didn’t really have time. I also didn’t ask much about his offences, either. I didn’t think it was particularly relevant to the post, and I gather it was some typically adolescent stuff.

      He certainly seemed to have got his life on track before making one last mistake. Self employed, paying his taxes, providing work for others, clean and sober. He looks and sounds like your average dinkum Aussie, really.

  14. infused 14

    So. Does he fuck?

  15. Tracey 15

    I fused he has been fucked by, amongst others, our PM who either colluded with Aussie to keep the truth of the conitions attached to appealing if returning to NZ. Or forgot to mention it. Both might be required of a currency trader but neither is a virtue in a PM

    • infused 15.1

      It has nothing to do with our PM Tracey.

      • Tracey 15.1.1

        Only if he is an impotent leader infused. How is choosing not to tell NZERS, amongst all the things he has said on this, that appealing will not be as easy here as there, nothing to do with our PM. He knew that anyone coming home had to jump a big financial hurdle before they could appeal thatt they wouldnt face in Australia?

        3 choices infused

        John Key is

        1. An impotent leader.
        2. A deceptive leader
        3. A mere dupe

        • Daniel Cale 15.1.1.1

          Tracey many people here bagged Key for claiming there were rapists amongst the NZ’ers returning home, when they claimed there weren’t. As recent events have shown there was at least one returning NZ’er arrested on arrival for historic sexual assault charges. Key was right. You were all wrong.

          [lprent: Rape is a type of sexual assault yes. However all sexual assaults aren’t rapes. It appears this is a moron level mistake that you share with John Key.

          Would you care to retract that idiotic assertion or to offer some linked proof that the single instance was a rape or would you like me to simply ban you for smearing “many people” because you are too stupid to read newspaper reports accurately. I’ve added your to auto-spam while I await your answer.

          Please note that as soon as you start making general assertions about the site, you immediately become of interest to the sysop of the site. I have no sense of humor about it. ]

          • te reo putake 15.1.1.1.1

            Key was wrong, He claimed that in the group there were rapists and murderers. There weren’t. That’s a proven fact, as far as I know. The guy arrested this week is currently innocent until proven guilty, and may not even have been among those at Christmas Island anyway. Doug wasn’t, for example. In a nutshell, Key was wrong in his claim. That’ll never change, no matter how much you froth about it.

  16. Tory 16

    And the moral of the story is don’t bite the hand that feeds you.

    How about a bit more detail regarding why he was jailed and previous criminal history? At least then a reader can make up their own mind if ‘Doug’ has been harshly treated based on Australian Law or whether he outstayed his welcome by breaking the law.

    And no I don’t give a shit about the Australian process (or the way criminals or ex criminals are treated) as that is the law of the country. Perhaps if there was a bit more respect for the law Doug wouldn’t be in the predicament he is in.

    • Tory, Doug is effectively an Australian. He grew up there and knows no other culture. He was schooled in Oz, paid his tax in Oz and committed his crimes (whatever they were) in Oz. Barring the fact that he was born in NZ, he is entirely a product of Australia.

      The crux of the matter is that any Kiwi born Aussie can get caught up like this. Even ones like Doug who are the person they are because of Australia. Nature versus nurture. Australia made him the man he is, but a quirk of DNA means he’s going to be dumped here. We get to pay for Australia’s mistakes. Where’s the Taxpayer’s Union when you need them?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 16.2

      What do you care about the law: you can’t even respect basic human rights. Poxy hypocrite.

  17. Whispering Kate 17

    Welcome to our brave new world, Jesus this is disgusting what is going on. Key needs to grow some cajones and get stuck into the Australian Government over this. Dutton is evil and as bad as Key is. Unbelievable that this can be happening between our two countries – ANZACS I think not, such a travesty to even suggest their is friendship between the two countries. The sooner we break ties with them the better.

  18. Jester 18

    I appreciate the TRP conducted the interview with respect and good intentions but I’m sorry but the guys hard luck story has more holes than a cheese grater.

    • Macro 18.1

      You will, of course, point them all out to us….

      1, 2, 3, …. counting

      Come on.. what are all those holes that are so obvious to you but no one else?

  19. Andrea 19

    This interview made me cry – for the hopeless feeling that ‘Doug’ must be experiencing. He is very generous in his recount about the NZ Police and Corrections, about how he’s been treated here – it is good to know that he has had some compassion/empathy shown to him.
    We don’t know his ‘crime’ – are we ‘allowed’ to know or is it confidential? You would think that Austr. govt would look at each case individually and deal with it case-by-case (as in based on severity). He owned a business, he employed people, he has family, he has admitted he has been ‘off the rails’ when he was younger but he now has cleaned up his life and is living a new life (how did he end up in jail if that be the case?)
    If his crime was ‘minor’ then surely it would be better for the employment situation in Austr. if people like ‘Doug’ were permitted back to their community to carry on running their business … those few people he employed would’ve had families/lives – so by what the Austr. Govt has done to Doug, they have also done to the people he employed.
    It astounds me that a) Doug doesn’t have citizenship and if he does, how is it that he needs to sort out ‘visas’? It is also astounding that the Australian Govt can do this to people who have lived their entire lives in that country – ie: Doug didn’t emigrate to Australia out of choice, his parents took him when he was a small child. It is therefore reasonable to say that Australia is Doug’s ‘homeland’ – So: If the PM of Australia was born in Africa but was taken to Australia by his parents at 5yr old and he committed a crime (any crime) and served jail time; would the Australian Govt then send him back to Africa? After he had lived in Australia for 40years? If so, that is a moronic law!
    Also; for ‘arguments sake’ what makes the Austr. govt think that NZ (or any birth country) wants someone back if they *have committed a serious crime! If the person is raised, has lived in Australia for more than half their life and is considered ‘Australian’ by all other purposes, if they’ve paid their taxes there etc… then why send them to the country of their birth?
    Obviously all my questions are rhetorical and have been asked probably, by thousands of people – but it seems to be a most illogical and irresponsible law, not to mention inhumane.
    I feel very sad for Doug, he has paid his dues, he is lost and alone. Thank goodness for his relatives taking him in. Is there some way that the people of NZ (those who want to) to maybe support Doug in his needs for legal help? Can we start some kind of fund to help the people who need this help who are coming back from Australia? Those who’ve been mistreated and who really deserve the help?
    It is very forgiving, very humble of Doug to suggest that there is ”nothing that can be done” by New Zealand – but why is there nothing? Why did John Key say that something could be done if they came here yet now one of them is here, he tells us that nothing can be done? WHY has JK NOT done anything to help these people with Legal help! THAT at least would have been better than nothing at all!!!!
    Sorry – I feel saddened by this story and I always feel that there is never nothing that can be done – there must be a way to help these people and help reunite them with their families.

    • Magisterium 19.1

      Andrea said “It astounds me that a) Doug doesn’t have citizenship”

      Me too. None of this would have happened if he’d simply claimed the Australian citizenship he was entitled to.

      • te reo putake 19.1.1

        Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of Kiwis who also haven’t bothered applying for citizenship. For decades, we’ve never had to bother. But thanks to this law change, our ‘special relationship’ with Australia has been cut off at the knees.

        There is also the possibility the he, and many more Kiwi born Aussies, would not be granted citizenship. It’s not automatic, any more than it is here. It’s an application, not an entitlement and Australia has tightened up on the ‘good character’ provisions. It’s not a given.

        • Once was Tim 19.1.1.1

          Your first paragraph sums it up exactly.
          NZers often haven’t applied for Australian citizenship because we supposedly had ‘a special relationship’ (no doubt based on that mythical ANZAC spirit ‘brand’).
          The ‘special relationship’ was curtailed with fook all fanfare such that many/most were not even aware the changes were being made.

          Still, those that find democracy too inconvenient at times and those that find natural justice and being principled foreign often love to put the boot in (preferably by stealth if possible).

          We should at least have the sense to reciprocate – in a number of ways.
          (E.G student loans; property purchases; etc – though not as far as denying benefits in hard times – perhaps we could give an airfare home instead, minus the handcuffs).
          Ekshully, Australians hate their banks as much as we do – perhaps there’s an opportunity for Kiwibank – or the CoOp bank

    • Thanks, Andrea. I chose not to go into Doug’s history because I think it’s irrelevant. It’s the situation he finds himself in that is the important thing. I didn’t want to make moral judgements about him, but I sure as hell do want to make moral judgements about the governments both sides of the Tasman.

      This is a fundamentally stupid situation. Australia is entirely responsible for how people like Doug turned out. Doug is entirely a product of his Australian upbringing, but we Kiwis have to foot the bill and take the risk. I’m optimistic that Doug will make a go of it, but he was already making a go of it in Oz. This situation sucks.

      • ZTesh 19.2.1

        Isn’t Doug’s predicament also a product made entirely of his own choices in life? And his history is relevant, if he has committed minor victimless crimes (would he have wound up in jail for those?) it’s a lot different than if he was someone who preyed on Australian citizens and/or committed domestic violence.

        I do appreciate the point about us, the tax payer being the real loser in this, as we have had no control or input into it and now we are being lumped with thousands of ‘Australian’ criminals….

        • te reo putake 19.2.1.1

          Nah, I maintain his crimes aren’t relevant. He’s definitely done some stuff, but it wouldn’t matter if they were victimless crimes or not. Let’s say it was growing dope and selling it to his mates. He’d still be facing deportation if he was imprisoned. The taxpayer thing is a bit of a side issue, as I’m more concerned about the human cost, but it does seem ridiculous that we are being left to carry the can for what are Australian issues.

        • Tracey 19.2.1.2

          I’ve posted the criteria above. Read it. You will see that combined sentences from different offences, of 12 months added together satusfieds the criteria.

          You and others here are latching on to a read herring.

      • Daniel Cale 19.2.2

        “It’s the situation he finds himself in that is the important thing. ”

        The situation he’s in is the product of his history, which is of his own making. The fact that you want to judge governments but not the individual responsible is just silly leftie hand wringing.

  20. Magisterium 20

    I don’t see why Doug is so worried, now that Andrew Little and Phil Goff have stepped in everything will be sorted out Real Soon Now.

  21. Jester 21

    Well it obvious that his sentence wasn’t 2 months due to 6 mths parole period.

    It’s also obvious that a 2 yr sentence wouldn’t be commuted to 2 mths so that rules out an appeal.

    I’d point out that the whine about losing his business seems odd. The business failed due to his deportation arrangements but survived when he was serving his original lag?

    His offences were “typical adolescent stuff” 2 years max for boys will be boys stuff.?Yeah right.

    Has “nobody” in NZ to turn to but is placed with relatives in NZ?

    He was advised about possible deportation but did what? That right nothing until now

    I’m happy to continue Macro but judging by your response I’d place you in the determined to give blowjobs to criminals as long as you can make a hit on JK camp’ so I think my time would be wasted.

    • weka 21.1

      I could see such a business surviving 2 months but not another six. Not hard to imagine.

    • His custodial sentence was two months. I covered this in the reply to BM above. No idea what you think your second point means. It’s gibberish.

      Your third point is ridiculous. He wasn’t whining about the loss of his business, he’s accepting of the fact that he got himself into the mess. But he had a chance of saving it if he wasn’t forced to serve his parole inside.

      The adolescent stuff was his exactly that, the stuff he did as a youth. Did you read the post?

      He has never previously met the relatives who have taken him in. They are literally strangers to him. If it wasn’t for their amazing support, he’d be on his own. They’ve clearly got more humanity than you, bud.

      Yes, he did nothing about the possibility of deportation because he didn’t take it seriously. So he was young and naive. That happens. He just did not think it would happen to him. Big mistake, obviously.

      If you have any genuine points to make, feel free to put them up.

    • Macro 21.3

      If you mean by the last remark that I have a modicum of empathy, which is obviously a quality completely lacking in your case, then I stand accused. I will admit to having worked as a Probation Officer for a time some years back, and am familiar with the rules regarding parole which (from your first remark) you obviously aren’t.

  22. BLiP 22

    Top work, TRP. Thank you. Your post shines a light which exposes just how dark National Ltd™’s promise of a “brighter future” for all New Zealanders really is.

  23. Mike the Savage One 23

    Last I heard today, in Question Time, yet again, Bill English going on about the “net immigration gain” from Australia, I wonder whether he meant this, the deportees, being a significant number of them.

    Australia changed its laws, made it draconian, inhumane, and now they all are forced to come back, who for whatever reasons failed to “realise” their “Aussie Dream”, all ejected and rejected, as “riff raff” and unwanted persons.

    And all that the government did was to first ignore the challenge, and then come with a law change to enable them to “monitor” the “problem”!

    I am sorry, dear NZers, this is YOUR PROBLEM, they are NZ citizens, residents, born and bred here, they may have gone wrong in Australia, they are STILL Kiwis, and chose to be that. So where is the NZers solidarity to their own?

    Also, so what “welfare” is being offered, besides of “monitoring”? Maybe the MSD and WINZ will create a new “task force” to off-load these “socially undesirables” into work, whatever work there is, as they have tried with endless Kiwis living here, they will be “fit for work”, I presume to will have to jump through endless hoops to get any payments from WINZ for a start.

    Prepare for this, dear folks, it has been going of for a while, MSD have only taken a more precautionary approach due to much of what we presented, as warnings, re what went on in the UK, but they cannot be trusted, not at all, they will try again to bend the rules:

    http://nzsocialjusticeblog2013.wordpress.com/2013/09/02/medical-and-work-capability-assessments-based-on-the-controversial-bio-psycho-social-model/

    http://nzsocialjusticeblog2013.wordpress.com/2013/12/28/designated-doctors-used-by-work-and-income-some-also-used-by-acc-the-truth-about-them/

    NZers have largely lost any sense of solidarity and sympathy, I see many just look after number one here in Auckland, and it is sad, disappointing, and it is nasty at times. So where do you stand, dear TS commenters? I think this society has long ago lost its values and spirit, the nasty labeling of these people, some of whom only committed minor traffic offences, shows how nasty this country’s populace has become.

    • Gosman 23.1

      The trouble is you are expecting New Zealanders to have solidarity with people who have openly stated they don’t want to be in New Zealand and would rather be in another country. You want us to stand up for the right of New Zealanders to live in another country. That is truly bizarre.

      • Daniel Cale 23.1.1

        Yes it is. And what is even bizarre is that Labour, who are trying to gain popular support, also expected this.

      • Mike the Savage One 23.1.2

        Divide and rule, you are the best example for this policy approach that this government we have takes, and sadly the majority supporting this have settled with suffering Stockholm Syndrome.

      • Grindlebottom 23.1.3

        It’s an issue of standing up for the right of people to be treated fairly. At the most basic level, it’s simply not fair for someone who’s spent most of their life living in another country, and has their roots and family there, to be thrown out. And especially so when any offences committed have been trivial & they’ve finished the sentence or paid the penalty imposed at the time.

    • JonL 23.2

      A large number are born here – but not breed here. Growing up in Australia, they are, for all intensive purposes, Australians! Note – it’s not just NZ’ers being deported – they exported a 56 yo English born resident who came to Australia when he was 1! His crime – self medicating drugs! Dutton, the Australian minister of immigration is an evil psychopathic dolt – acknowledged as such by any Australian with half a brain – but that rules out most of the LNP party, so he’s a cabinet minister!

  24. weston 24

    its almost funny that society if we may generalize a little looks down its noble nose at so called criminals in and of its jails but is in awe of some slimey lieing potentially totally corrupt polititian just because he is wearing a suit . All the while bankers defraud the world of billions turning the vast majority of simple workers into slaves for the term of their natrual lives .goes without saying practicly that whatever the pricks mentioned above get away with ;corporations wielding global reach and power will finally exterminate us all !!He or she who imagines that deporting a tiny amount of petty crims is gonna make any world a better place is severely deluded i.m.o.

    • Tracey 24.1

      Not to mention the people in suits committing fraud which never reaches ciminal courts because the company doesn’t want to give the impression it has bad security… thoe folks walk among us.

      Look at the ACT party about 17% of all the MP’s it has ever had in Parliament have criminal convictions. Even one who stood in Tamaki but didn’t get elected got one this year (Swney).

      NO outriage from the Right wingers though…

  25. Tory 25

    Weston, you epitomise the twisted left that blame all on JK rather than taking on a bit of personal responsibility. All I hear is “poor Doug” rather than he is bearing the fruit from actions that no doubt affected innocent people going about their lawful business. Of course we will never know if Doug is getting a raw deal as Doug appears happy to play the sympathy vote but at the same time won’t expose his criminal history.

    • Tory, you egg, it was my decision not to ask how Doug got into this situation. His convictions aren’t the point and I’m sure he’d have told me if I’d asked. The post is about the disproportionate damage being done to people who are in his position. His child, who also has a Kiwi heritage, is likely to grow up without knowing his father. What’s the kid done? Has he failed to take personal responsibility, too? Doug is not looking for sympathy. He’s a grown up and takes full responsibility for his mistakes. I suspect he’s far more mature about getting things wrong than you. But go on, surprise me. Tell me that the penny has dropped and you now understand the point of the post.

      And speaking of personal responsibility, why isn’t Australia taking personal responsibility? Why does the NZ taxpayer have to pay for mistakes made across the ditch?

    • Ad 25.2

      The person interviewed was quite clear about the crimes committed, their penalty, the parole, the difference between parole and detention, and the desire to work hard and make a new life. You are wrong there.

      I’d love to see Treasury step in and help this person rebuild their lives like they did South Canterbury Finance. But we won’t.

      I’d love to see Key do his job as Prime Minister and protecting our own citizens, like MFAT do for citizen tourists around the world who get into trouble. But we aren’t.

      It would be fantastic to see an actually effective New Zealand penal system that could confidently take them all on here, if they have further sentences to serve. But we don’t. Key now presides over a privatized penal system that is such a disaster his Minister hasn’t fronted to the media for months.

      If the taxes you and I pay the government to help such destitute people out don’t work, it’s time to vote the people in charge out.

      Instead, actual ordinary Kiwis are picking up the pieces, and will make it work despite this government. As they have been for 7 years now. It’s not about personal responsibility, you heartless asshhole, it’s about family responsibility and community responsibility. It’s that thing National degrades and destroys; actual functioning society.

    • RedLogix 25.3

      The other critical point that Tory and his ilk refuse to notice – the new rules that deported Doug are fucking retrospective in their application.

      Doesn’t matter if you did a couple of short sentences 20 years ago. Bam … the rules demand your indefinite detention and probably deportation.

      Kind of hard to take personal responsibility for a law that’s going to be passed decades in the future eh?

      • George Hendry 25.3.1

        Beautifully put. 🙂

      • Tracey 25.3.2

        They would have to have read the whole post and responses, understood some facts about the issue and taken on board more than just the filtered version that suits their comfy and self righteous world view. I wonder how many of them voted for ACT when David Garrett was a proposed LIst MP?

        Perhaps Tory means that they should have anticipated that a right-wing government would bring in a draconian law that violates Inernational Human Rights and a right wing NZ government would quietly agree and so do nothing?

        • Mike Bond 25.3.2.1

          I fail to see why the attack on Tory as he is only viewing his opinion. The attack on National and Key is also a bit of a joke as “Doug” himself has said that Key nor the government can do a thing about what is happening. The bottom line no matter how you look at it, is that these people have committed a crime and are paying for it. Now it could be that they are being “sentenced” twice, but that is unfortunately the law now in existence in Australia. Little and Goff went over to have their say and what has changed? Thankfully these people can come back to New Zealand and start a new life. I know of many immigrants that have no one to support them in New Zealand, so this lot needs to accept that it is overall their own wrong doing and if they are serious about changing their lives around, get on with life.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 25.3.2.1.1

            It’s because Tory starts with an attack – “twisted” – and then employs right wing lies about “personal responsibility” – of which he demonstrates zero.

            I note you and Tory pay lip service to the rule of law while defending human rights abuses. You, and all others like you, belong in the dock at The Hague.

            • Gosman 25.3.2.1.1.1

              “You, and all others like you, belong in the dock at The Hague.”

              For expressing an opinion on a blog – Isn’t that a thought crime?

              I’m pretty sure that is not a good idea. Rather suspect that you support it though.

          • tracey 25.3.2.1.2

            He is being challenged because his opinion fails to take account of an important fact. He claims people knew what would happen, and yet the law is being applied retrospectively, which means the opposite of people knew what would happen.

    • weston 25.4

      actualy tory i wasnt thinking of jk in my comment tho it amuses me that you thought so because of my description ! .I was thinking more of the latest breed of ausie pollies whos brains seemed to have turned to mush forget about their hearts they obviously attrophied years ago .

  26. Grindlebottom 26

    I remain staunchly of the view Australia’s S.501 amendment is unfair and am opposed to it, but this story is interesting. I remember the “human crime wave” media fuss before she arrived. Her case would be the exception rather than the norm, I’m sure, but nevertheless one hopes others will give our deportees who’re unsuccessful in their appeals and unable to return to Australia a chance, as they were prepared to for Patricia.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/74688241/human-crime-wave-patricia-toia-australia-did-me-a-favour-by-deporting-me

    • Thanks, Grindlebottom, that’s an interesting counterpoint. I’m glad she’s turned her life around. Not sure that every deportee will have the same outcome though.

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