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English taunts students

Written By: - Date published: 9:58 am, May 26th, 2012 - 65 comments
Categories: activism, bill english - Tags: ,

Remember this? John Key:

Today I want assure you that I will lead a government for all New Zealanders…

and this?

About 1200 supporters cheered rapturously to a triumphant speech from Mr Key in which he promised to lead a government that united the country.

What a lot of saccharine bullshit. This is not a government for all New Zealanders, it is a government for the rich. As was well observed before the budget, the burdens of the Nats mishandling of the economy are falling most heavily on the poor. The budget made it even clearer. Instead of reversing the costly tax cuts on the rich, or introducing a capital gains tax, the Nats would rather shake down paperboys for pocket change.

Their disdain for ordinary Kiwis is not just exhibited in their policies, it pervades their arrogant attitude to anyone else’s opinion. Like Key dismissing the asset sales hikoi, or calling another young group of protestors “cold and desperate”. Now Bill English is the latest, topical example:

English taunts student protesters

Meanwhile, the Finance Minister has taunted student protesters who yesterday blockaded an Auckland street saying “they need some Greeks to show them how to do it.”

Students yesterday blockaded Auckland’s Symonds Street in protest at English’s Budget which included measures tightening eligibility for student allowances and increasing the rate of compulsory student loan repayments from 10% to 12%. …

“Yes, there’s a protest movement out there but who’s really listening to them?” English said, in response to a question from the audience. “They get on TV and they can make a bit of a racket … dragging a few rubbish bins around, they need some Greeks to show them how to do it,” he said. “It gets reported, mainly because it blocked the traffic, [but] who’s listening?

Taunting the young people who are getting the shitty end of the economic stick – does it get any more arrogant than that?

65 comments on “English taunts students”

  1. Tiger Mountain 1

    Hopefully Blinglish will be getting his arrogance back in spades from students and supporters. A big pile of burning tires outside his Dipton home, doh, Welly home, would be nice to have as an official fightback campaign starter. “Burn Shipley Burn” style actions are returning sooner rather than later.

    One really wonders what kind of country the Natz want.

  2. Dr Terry 2

    The worse it gets, the broader the smile on English’ face – he obviously enjoys creating misery and mayhem for Key’s under-classes. Good old Bill has nothing to worry about – he can even cast aspersions on the Greeks. You are right, English is now revealing his personal cruelty, laughing at peoples misery then going further in order to taunt them
    This is the same man who claims to be a Christian and Catholic (lots of kids). All he needs to do, really, is begin to behave like a Christian, but that might only happen on his death bed. .

  3. Jackal 3

    Bill English is off the planet. He reckons people should move to Christchurch to find a job when the CBD rebuild hasn’t even started properly yet. What a goober!

  4. MikeG 4

    I haven’t seen such economic wizardry since Rob Muldoon

    • Draco T Bastard 4.1

      To be honest, I think Rob may have been better than what we’ve had since. He at least understood the need for development even if he did go about it the wrong way.

  5. ianmac 5

    I have a member of family who completed his degree and amassed a large Loan. Now that he is over 25 he is entitled to a Student Allowance thank goodness! But as he heads into a Masters with an eye on his Doctorate, bang! Only way he can continue is to go back onto a Student Loan. Crap!
    Is he upset? You bet as are others caught out in the same way.

    • Colonial Viper 5.1

      Do you know how he voted in November.

      • ianmac 5.1.1

        Very much not NAct Colonial V. Been passionately Leftish for years.

        • Colonial Viper

          Thanks. I wonder how many in MFAT voted National last election. I suspect quite a few. I wonder how many will again, next election.

          • ianmac

            Mr Banks and others would trash Student Loans and Allowances altogether.

            • Ant

              Yeah it really does suck, my faculty relies a lot on our 24+ PG students as they generally bring a work ethic and maturity that rubs off on the younger students (not to mention a lot of real world knowledge) – it contributes heavily to the research culture and quality of research in the school. This is a massive disincentive for those older students in returning to PG study.

  6. Agora 6

    Bill was a student once himself, but has never been the same since encountering the malign influence of the Dark Lords of Finance at Treasury.

    I doubt if he has ever enjoyed an all-night bouzouki session at Plaka, developed around the ruins of the ancient Agora (or marketplace) of Athens on the northeast slope of Acropolis.

  7. outofbed 7

    Heard three cabinet Ministers throw Greece or Greeks into interviews in the last few days.
    Word must have gone out

    • Draco T Bastard 7.1

      Yep, more stirring of the BS to try and scare the Punters out in Punterland.

    • ianmac 7.2

      According to Steven Keen, Britain is in twice as much trouble as USA, and that Greece could default, endure the sudden deep pain but recover with the drachma. This would be better than a Facist answer. So maybe the constant mention of Greece will cause NZers to think beyond Austerity, Job Cuts, and downsizing of our economy. Growth instead?

      • Colonial Viper 7.2.1

        You know the destruction of Lehman Bros, JP Morgan’s surprise billions in derivative losses, Bernie Maddoff, etc were all due to their deals run out of the City of London.

        And its not a coincidence. Financial regulations there (eg. limits on re-hypothecation) are even more lax than the US.

  8. AAMC 8

    I read English’s remarks about Greek riots as an invitation, next march should end in front of Key’s Parnell pad rather than Aotea Sq.

    Ironic though that Iti put away for Molotov’s while the next day English is suggesting we throw them…

    • Colonial Viper 8.1

      English knows that our students, and the Greek public, have a case. Its not going to stop him from working on behalf of the wealthy – but he knows.

    • Draco T Bastard 8.2

      Ironic though that Iti put away for Molotov’s while the next day English is suggesting we throw them…

      Capitalists will sell the rope used to hang them.

  9. Sookie 9

    The airheaded little farmboy who is president of OUSA at Otago is a perfect representation of what students are like these days. Vapid, materialistic, and apathetic to the point of not defending their own interests. You might get them to protest properly if the meatheaded jocks were promised a slab of beers and a few couches to burn and the chicks free vouchers from Supre…they don’t make ’em like they used to anymore, and English probably knows it. Easy target. Respect to the Auckland students who actually did something on the day.

  10. Tigger 10

    What does Blinglish mean? They should riot? What part if his hilarious joke am I missing?

    • Tom 10.1

      Nah, he’s just big-noting himself in that typical Kiwi chest-tumping way. It is no wonder that many
      overseas women stereotype kiwi men as primeval knuckle-draggers. Muldoon used similar epithets to refer to anti-tour protesters … there is some interesting footage around. It is unfortunately what often passes for political discourse in this country.

      • Vicky32 10.1.1

        It is no wonder that many
        overseas women stereotype kiwi men as primeval knuckle-draggers.

        Not just overseas women! The one time I dated a New Zealand man (and married him!) I lived to regret it very much indeed, for the next 30+ years…

    • Tiger Mountain 10.2

      Don’t be a dick Tigger, “Blinglish”, “Double Dipper” and “Double Dipton” have been used for several years on various blogs including this one.

      Boxer Bill was referring to militancy in Greece and being provocative. Dismissive attitudes to growing legitimate protest is the latest tactic from tory HQ.

  11. agora 11

    Towards increased aotearoan-hellenic cultural sophistication .. and a damn good time.


  12. UpandComer 12

    So let me get this straight. Students deserve to get $240 a week, tax free, from the taxpayer, for the entire time that they choose to stay at University, because they are inherently entitled to it?

    What bloviated hyperbolic rubbish.4 years of student allowance is still an enormous amount of money to just give someone, tax free, for something they choose to do. Further, the original policy was badly written because it isn’t even targeted at the people who need it. The sons and daughters of anyone with a farm, a business, or a trust can get this money free because the Labour party don’t know how to write legislation. It’s pathetic how much this has cost and how unfair it has been to so many people when the test has been salary income, rather then income per se.

    If you cannot achieve something in 7 years of university with interest free loans, then you shouldn’t have been at university in the first place! If someone wants to do a ten year marathon of a PHD, is it so hard to work for 6 months and plan for it? I mean given the number of grants and incentives to postgraduate study out there I find it very hard to believe someone with any gumption couldn’t afford to complete their PHD.

    These students are entitled, misguided, silly little fools without any kind of perspective. Why are students so special that they should be able to get unlimited free money, and unlimited interest free loans, while the rest of society cannot? As it is, what students get is exceedingly generous. The best students are the ones who work anyway so they have minimal loans regardless.

    You people talk as if increasing the loan repayments by 2 percent is the end of the world, and putting a cap on the time students who often shouldn’t be getting free money, can get free money. A 2 percent rise in loan repayments on a job is nothing, no matter who you are. These students need to get out of the VUSA and the NZUSA and start living off of planet Labour. It’s pathetic, whining, rubbish behavior from a small minority of students claiming to represent the majority who haven’t got a clue.

    Bill English is exactly right to mock the tossers.

    • Colonial Viper 12.1

      So let me get this straight. Students deserve to get $240 a week, tax free, from the taxpayer, for the entire time that they choose to stay at University, because they are inherently entitled to it?

      No, you should continue to stiff the young and move even more wealth upwards to the older generations and those in power.

      It’s important we make the young pay for keeping the middle classes and upper classes in the lifestyle that they have now become accustomed.

    • Murray Olsen 12.2

      What interest free loan? I pay interest on mine. If you mean interest free while studying, please say so. If your idea of paradise is a population without the nous or education to question everything that comes from Tory speechwriters and spin artists, please also say so. If you think wonderful kiwi business people are going to save us all and only having to pay something approaching a starvation wage is what’s holding them back, please stop taking hallucinogenics. Kiwi business people are, by and large, the biggest welfare bludgers of the lot. The only difference is that their bludging is done behind closed doors or in corporate boxes. If they think an income tax rate of 33% when they structure their wealth so they make negative income every year anyway is a good reason to leave the country, let them go. Let’s see how well they do when their brother in law isn’t on the local council or they weren’t a school prefect at King’s with some microencephalic Tory minister.

      • Andrew 12.2.1

        You only pay interest on your student loan if you live outside of NZ. While studying and living in NZ your loan is interest free.

    • Vicky32 12.3

      As it is, what students get is exceedingly generous. The best students are the ones who work anyway so they have minimal loans regardless.

      When I was at University in the 1980s, student allowances were universal. Because my parents were (long) dead, I also got an accomodation allowance, yet I had to drop out because I was starving.
      When my son was at university, from 2005-8, he got an allowance because I was on a DPB and because his CEO father wrote an official statement saying he didn’t ever want anything to do with his son – guess how that made my son feel? My son didn’t ‘work’ because he would have been unable to do justice to his B.Nurs., while supporting himself – especially assix week unpaid placements on several wards at Auckland City Hospital, at CADS and the Mason Clinic were part of his course.
      I assume you’ve never been nearer to a University than the street outside, and you’re maybe a bit jealous? Your comment reeks of ignorance.

  13. ordinary_bloke 13

    Well, I did it overseas without any loans while working part-time.

    Your reference to “you people” strikes me as arrogant and ignorant of the realities on the ground for a lot of young people I know.

    • Carol 13.1

      I also did most of my studies (under and postgrad) while working part or full time, and a lot of it as a part time student, too…. with a lot of it also done overseas.

      But times are getting tough now, and with more competition for jobs, it’s harder to get a high level job without a degree, or especially a postgrad degree, and living expenses are rising. Yes, there are scholarships, especially for PhD students, but they are also very competitive to get. Not so many available for all honours and Masters students.

      Education doesn’t just benefit the individual, but it’s an investment for society for the future. And not investing in a fair share of education for all, will increase inequalities, fracture society, and is building up problems for the future for all of us. How can they work to save up for a postgrad degree, if they can’t get a job – or, particularly, a job that pays well enough?

      You can pretty much bet that DoubleDiption’s and Bank-scammer_John’s children and grandchildren will get what higher education they want, at their parents’/grandparents’ expense, and without having to depend on scholarships, loans or allowances. These cut-backs on support for students are just reinforcing the privilege of the families of the wealthy and powerful.

      And Bill’s taunts of students, making them sound like failed Greek rioters, is just an attempt to marginalise dissenting voices.

      It seems to me that since the budget, Bill and John have been going around talking to business groups – probably the most wealthy and powerful ones too…. not your struggling small business people. I haven’t yet heard of Bill and John fronting up to uni and school students to explain why they are cutting back resources for them, while they still haven’t reversed the tax cuts to the already wealthy.

      It’s easy to see who the NActs are pandering to…. the one’s with big bucks to fill their party coffers before the next elections – and what promises will be made, or suggested behind closed doors as pay back?

      • just saying 13.1.1

        Cuts to tertiary education in NZ now, primarily affect the middle-class imo. In my recent experience, there are few poor or even ‘lower middle-class’ university students, though there may be a slightly higher proportion at polytechs and training colleges.

        Obviously these cuts will further lower particpation of the poorest half of the population, but this section of the student communities has been pitifully low for a while now.

        And we can’t have large numbers in “high-level jobs” anyway, such are, by definition a minority affair.

  14. UpandComer 14

    You people is in reference to the steadies on here. I do not understand how you can be doing it tough if you are student. If your parents were poor, or can pretend to have low salaries, you get free money that is the equivalent of about 25 hours of work at 16 dollars an hour after tax. And you can still work even then! You get years of interest free loans on course costs, and no course costs much more then 4 grand, unless you are doing medicine, in which case you are high IQ and not these students who blocked off the street. “You people” refers to the people who think that what the government is providing in the current environment is in any way a bad deal.

    • Craig Glen Eden 14.1

      Their are other courses that cost more than medicine wannabe(upandComer) Pilot, Dentist, Chiropractic to name just a few.

      I guess you must have been outraged when Bill English thought he deserved more cleaning courtesy of the tax payer. In case I missed it (your outrage), this is your chance to tells what a self serving system bludging smuck English was for wanting more when everyone else had to tighten their belts. Step up we are all waiting!!

    • Murray Olsen 14.2

      Did you do IQ tests on all the protesting students, UpandComer? I’ve taught Med students and, while their intelligence might be high compared to yours, they are usually the richest, not the brightest.

    • Vicky32 14.3

      and no course costs much more then 4 grand, unless you are doing medicine, in which case you are high IQ and not these students who blocked off the street.

      And you know that how? My son did a Bachelor of Nursing, and he comes from a ‘welfare’ background. He has a very high IQ, and what makes you think high IQ people are all upper class ninnies who won’t protest?
      IMO, all the new rules are intended to reassure the Remmers grannies that they’ll never have to take the risk of going to the doctor or the hospital and being treated by a lower class person, or making their CEO buddies feel secure that when they go to a lawyer specialising in wills and estates, that they will never run the risk of seeing a lawyer or a law clerk who might be the son of the housekeeper or daughter of the cleaner! 😀

  15. UpandComer 15

    Perhaps I overstepped the mark slightly on that comment re IQ’s for instance. But surely the deal that students get is pretty generous? Those pretty specialised, highly competitive entry and highly capped student number subjects that you noted Craig can still be paid for completely by the interest free student loan, and those students are eligible for all the general ‘entitlement’s.

    Fair enough re the IQ comment, I stand chastened. But I think in general those students really lack perspective. Student’s get a very good go in New Zealand and blocking streets because there is a 200 week cap on free money – which with the accommodation allowance equates to 42000 dollars free if you are under 24 and take the maximum which all do, and 49200 free if you start receiving over the age of 24, seems a tad out there?

    Similarly, the country loans students big amounts of money at no interest, a 2 percent rise on the average wage equates to only an additional $840 per year, assuming a generous starting wage for non Craig glen eden pursuits that pay $42000? How is this riot worthy, and how is that disproportionate?

    I think it should be pointed out that Bill English is now the cheapest Minister in NZ’s history, because he is the only one ever who now does not receive any kind of accommodation supplement whatsoever whilst having to spend so much time outside his electorate. I also think it is fine for a dep prime minister of whatever stripe to have a cleaning lady. Only in NZ would that be an issue. He isn’t anyone else, he held a damn position. If the PM and the DPM can’t have one, it seems a bit silly to me. They have one everywhere else aside from NZ and OZ. It was not comparable in any way to what was going on in the UK.

    I definitely think you overestimate what Bill English’s children would get from their parents by way of monies for study. They definitely won’t qualify for anything from the government aside from loans, and will definitely have big loans, aside from if they won scholarships, which I understand all of them have, it was the news once.

    There is no way you can fully pay for however many kids he has which is a lot, accommodation and fees, unless you are John Key, or another outlier individual.

    I don’t think he is marginalising them, he is just contemptuous of their attitudes, and actually I, and most people, are as well. They are hardly being marginalised.

    The taxcuts gave two thirds of NZ’ers all their money aside from 17 cents in the dollar. that seems to serve the plurality of people pretty well if you ask me. If you focus on a few outlier individuals at the top of a pyramid for whatever reason, and want to devise tax policy on that basis, then by all means, have the stupid tax policies of labour with decoupled tax and personal tax rates. Why didn’t they do a capital gains tax when they could if it is the panacea?

    I’ve had a wee bit to do with med students, and I will agree many are a bit rich and lack perspective, but I think even that even most arsey ones can see that students in general get a pretty good deal at the moment, surely??!!!

    • Colonial Viper 15.1

      But surely the deal that students get is pretty generous?

      Nowhere near as generous as the deals Key, English and Joyce got as university students, as it turns out.

      Of course, they are of the class who expect it all for themselves, and expect the young to pay for it.

      Austerity for you, big tax cuts for us. Too bad.

    • Murray Olsen 15.2

      Maybe the students, as citizens, were concerned about other aspects of goverment policy as well? After all, education should broaden their minds.

  16. seeker 16

    @Upand comer

    “no course costs much more then 4 grand…..”

    Each course of a degree costs between $600-$800 and a student is expected to complete 7-8 courses per year hence approximately at least $ 5000 per year. As you will be able to work out a four year degree will cost round about $20000. This is what the student loan is ‘loaned’ for ( ie tuition fees).

    Some students are eligible for the maximum student allowance of $207 which has just risen to $210 for 200 weeks of study. This is different from the student loan and is to pay for accommodation and food. Am not sure where you get $240 dollars from Upand comer.

    You also wrote:
    “I think it should be pointed out that Bill English is now the cheapest Minister in NZ’s history, because he is the only one ever who now does not receive any kind of accommodation supplement whatsoever.”

    Have you got a link for this, as I thought English does receive some allowance (ministerial?)- just not quite as much as he gave himself (almost $1000 per week) in the first term of this government’s self serving ‘reign’.

    Bill’s pants are on fire

    Finally, I must say I do not understand why teachers and students, and in fact education itself, are held in such contempt by Business New Zealand(particularly Phil o’ Reilly), The Treasury (particularly CEO Gabriel Makhlouf), the MSM and this national government and their followers. Their attitude is frankly appalling and quite barbaric in its arrogance and ignorance.
    If these are the people who think they are the ones we should ‘look up to and listen to’, then all I can do is shake my head in sorrow and disbelief and say with complete sincerity “God defend New Zealand from the likes of these poverty of mind and spirit producers-especially Makhlouf…..”

  17. UpandComer 17

    Yeahp actually you are right re the course costs. I stand corrected. I was looking at very cheap full time courses. My apologies.

    I’m using the $240 figure as a student allowance of $200, as it is a nice round figure which still illustrates the point, plus the accommodation supplement, as many students leave home to go to a university in a different city and are eligible for that supplement which operates under the same conditions.

    If it’s $207 dollars as it stands now without the accom supp then it becomes 41400 dollars, which will tidily pay for a 4 year course costs and leave about 20 thousand dollars to pay for cost of living without any recourse to a job or a loan. Heck if a student just does some odd jobs and lives cheap the student allowance could pay uni and for a darn rental property mortgage these days.

    I work night shifts as you can probably tell from the ridiculous time of my posts, pretty long boring night shifts watching things standing still at night time and making sure they don’t walk off, with or without help. I get pissed off when students say they have it tough with all the largesse they are provided, and block the roads I might need to use. I think the finance minister got pissed off about it too. It would be lovely to take away say half that money and pay off some darn debt for instance.

    Here is the link. He paid all of the money he was entitled too back, and no longer gets anything at all:


    You can hardly call this government self-serving, given it’s MPs get the least amount of benefits, and have been the most transparent of any NZ govt… well ever man. The only reason this even became an issue is because John Key changed all the rules that had stood in place for decades. So that comment seems a bit off.

    I mean at the time Bill could have taken a ministerial house for his family, rent paid by ministerial services, and rented out the property he owned for a couple grand a week. That was the arrangement a few others had had in the past, and there was a scramble to get the hell out of that by a lot of MP’s. He took the option that would cost the least amount to the taxpayer and just put him in line with any other Minister living outside their electorate, albeit through a unique structure with the trust.

    Anyway regardless of all that he paid it all back when fat face Garner got his flabulated spoiled fat boy neck fat rolling, and gets nothing now.

    I can agree with you somewhat about the business round table head and Gabriel Makhlouf, as one of my favourite papers at university was Poetry, and I suspect they think Yeats, Heaney and Shakespeare would not have enough Makhloufian utility to justify their existence… but I disagree with you on the national government itself.

    I think it is a reasonable approach to at least try and change the status quo when it is failing a large group of young people who come out with nothing. I know NZ does well on the international tables, and we have a marvellous top echelon of students. That is wonderful and commendable. But some changes to help the kids at the bottom whom the status quo isn’t catering for seems reasonable to me.

    I also know NZ has many wonderful teachers, and it’s sad to me that they don’t get paid something closer to what they deserve, and are dragged down by their incompetent but shielded fellows.

    I also think that a lot of the high decile schools are fighting the reforms because they don’t want to be shown up. I believe a lot of lower decile, cheaper schools will be found to be performing the same as or better then the high decile schools, and parents will justifiably wonder why they are paying top dollar for these snotty schools.

    I think that a lot of the negative effects of national standards are overexaggerated. It isn’t teach to test, more then it is just ‘minimum knowledge’. If you struggle, you get identified and helped to reach that. If you are a whiz, you whiz along from that basis.

    I also think that private initiatives for the struggling few at the bottom should be supported. Obviously the state system is good for a lot of kids, but it is shocking for a sizeable minority. Lets see if some Maori-centric non-education ministry projects can help these children, or if Charter schools can do the job, like the KIPP schools in the LA projects in the US. I don’t think that I am wrong, I think it is a very institutionalised area of expertise that doesn’t like having it’s feathers ruffled. Ultimately these individuals shouldn’t break the law, and a lot of them have, which isn’t fair to kids or anyone really.

    I was a teacher’s aide for a year in a lovely ‘normal’ primary school with wonderful teachers, and I wish that they could be rewarded and also helped to break out of their institutional paradigms. Teacher’s college certainly makes people passionately suspicious of anything different to the status quo if nothing else!

    Anyway, I should probably take my vast right wing conspiracy views off of the standard and stop gumming up threads with my huge posts. You guys kind of need someone like me though, it’s a bit kind of homologous around here, not much vibrancy, just lots of mutual back licking… If Labour wins, I will be despondent, but then I imagine I will suck it up and see how I can exploit their stupid policies and get any handouts I can get and probably don’t deserve before I take off to a country that will treat me harshly but fairly.

    • Murray Olsen 17.1

      The message of that post seems to be well summed up in the last sentence. You don’t mind accepting handouts, but you don’t think the government should help anyone else except those who are in a position to benefit from the top tax rates. I’d also like to say, just like Banks did about DotCom, that it is ridiculous to suggest that I have licked any poster’s back. I am a married man.

    • Carol 17.2

      If it’s $207 dollars as it stands now without the accom supp then it becomes 41400 dollars, which will tidily pay for a 4 year course costs and leave about 20 thousand dollars to pay for cost of living without any recourse to a job or a loan. Heck if a student just does some odd jobs and lives cheap the student allowance could pay uni and for a darn rental property mortgage these days.

      Ha! Ha! What a joker. You can’t get get the supplement for accommodation on top of a student allowance.


      Most students can only get a loan for fees, plus a student allowance if they qualify. The student allowance isn’t enough to pay rent & other costs of living without working. Then, in order to pay back the loan (and I have known it to be in the MANY MANY thousands for students once they get into an MA, even though they have been working part-time as well.)

      Then they need a job to pay back the loan before they can get ahead as an adult worker. Getting jobs is getting harder and harder.

      You obviously haven’t had much to do with students in recent years -especially with young ones who don’t have parents on a comfortable income.

      • Draco T Bastard 17.2.1

        You can’t get get the supplement for accommodation on top of a student allowance.

        Ah, yes you can – I got it when I was at Uni while on the student allowance.

        • NickS

          Unless you’re flatting or paying over a certain amount for board.

        • Carol

          When did you get that Draco? It’s my understanding that in the 21st century it’s been pretty hard for any student to get accommodation supplement as well as student allowance. And that seems to be confirmed by the current info at the link above which states that you can’t get both, although a student may be eligible for accommodation benefit as well as student allowance.

          As far as I am aware, most students can get a loan for fees, and a many can get student allowance, but anything on top of that is more the exception than the rule.

    • DH 17.3

      “Anyway, I should probably take my vast right wing conspiracy views off of the standard and stop gumming up threads with my huge posts. You guys kind of need someone like me though, it’s a bit kind of homologous around here, not much vibrancy, just lots of mutual back licking…”

      Cut it back to one or two arguments at a time & join in, people here aren’t so bad & it’s not as mutual as you think.

      I find the students issue isn’t an easy one to take sides on because there’s two competing perspectives, neither of which is whole. On the one hand the state is spending far more than we can really afford on higher education, and in that context there’s a strong argument that many students have a pretty repugnant sense of entitlement. On the other hand the students argue that their only chance of a decent future is tertiary education whereas prior generations could get good jobs with secondary education. In that context they have a strong argument which challenges the entitlement argument.

      It’s easy to practice selective morality and push just one of the arguments while ignoring the other but if we’re to be fair then we need to find some balance between the two. Which is stronger, on which side do the scales tip… I don’t really know, do you?

      • Draco T Bastard 17.3.1

        On the one hand the state is spending far more than we can really afford on higher education…

        No it isn’t, we could afford far more if we stopped giving so much to so few for nothing.

    • seeker 17.4

      I like the fact that you are thinking Upandcomer-even if much of what you say appears to be naively wrong. Don’t give up thinking whatever you do, but always try to back it up with facts and an open mind and one day you may find that you see what many of us on this site see and experience, not just despondency, but true fear for our country and our children.

    • felix 17.5

      “If it’s $207 dollars as it stands now without the accom supp then it becomes 41400 dollars, which will tidily pay for a 4 year course costs and leave about 20 thousand dollars to pay for cost of living without any recourse to a job or a loan.

      Um, you realise that’s 20 thousand dollars to live on for four years, right? That’s five thousand dollars a year.

      And you think you could do a few “odd jobs” and pay a mortgage. Are you fucking retarded?

      • felix 17.5.1

        Actually that’s a bit harsh, you’re probably just sleep-deprived. It’s really easy to make huge errors without noticing when you’re in that state.


        Good thing you don’t have to get up at 7 and go to class, eh?

  18. UpandComer 18

    lol rofl wtf lol rofl. That wasn’t precisely the message I meant, I think you may have misconstrued me a bit there married man murray. I think the government should help people, defo, but there are good ways and bad ways. Paying a few hundy a week to solidly middle class denizens with working for families pisses me off. It should go to the solidly non-middle class denizens, but it was poorly written. Similarly, why should I have to pay mega taxes if I ever manage to sweat my way to a decent income to pay snotty brats $210 dollars per week to study the finer points of what makes a BA irrelevant to anything monetary in most instances? Again, student allowances should have catered to income, period, not salary income so wealthy as f**k kids with parents who shrug and do the dirty can claim they earn less then $50k and pay for their progeny and invest the student allowance, which could be paying off debt, or building hospitals, or helping you and your wife get pregnant or something.
    Also, how is it smart policy to have different company and personal tax rates, have myriad exceptions like the one that’s raising a decade or two of millions Bill crossed out the other day, and have high taxes to pay for the Greens pissing about with trains?
    I’m losing focus a bit here, but the point is that wasn’t what I meant. I don’t like accepting handouts, but if all these other undeserving bastards are going to vote for them and take them, and I have to pay my bit, I think I need to not be taken advantage of, like having a useless fellow boarder who leaves the dishes and I have to clean them, I’ll make my own dirty dishes if no one else wants to push.

    • Draco T Bastard 18.1

      Similarly, why should I have to pay mega taxes if I ever manage to sweat my way to a decent income to pay snotty brats $210 dollars per week to study the finer points of what makes a BA irrelevant to anything monetary in most instances?

      And there you proved that you’re uncouth, uneducated and stupid. You define all of life in monetary terms which has got to be the narrowest and most inaccurate way to do so.

      Ha, and I notice that Otago Uni have just shifted Econ to science whereas before it was and art (Humanities IIRC). Or, in other words, economics used to be got through a BA and probably still does in most universities. It certainly shouldn’t be considered as part of the hard sciences because it isn’t.

      • True Freedom is Self-Governance 18.1.1

        “You define all of life in monetary terms which has got to be the narrowest and most inaccurate way to do so.” Isn’t it just? I can only assume that people who think in that way haven’t yet realised how worthless ‘money’ really is, it is simply being used as a way for those already at an advantage to gain control of real wealth such as land, water etc.

    • fatty 18.2

      “Similarly, why should I have to pay mega taxes if I ever manage to sweat my way to a decent income to pay snotty brats $210 dollars per week to study the finer points of what makes a BA irrelevant to anything monetary in most instances?”

      Relatively speaking, nobody in NZ on a decent income is paying mega taxes…if you compare our tax structure to other countries, it is the wealthy that pay little tax, and the poor that pay high tax.

      Out of all possible degrees within our university system, the BA is by far the most relevant to our economic problems. Our economy needs to be influenced by philosophical & sociological analysis, not some ignorant 1950s charge towards mass consumption based on engineering, science & commerce. We need to stop this greed based ignorance…we have poverty because we choose to give to the wealthy, it has nothing to do with our GDP ‘growth’ rate.
      Build our economy on ethical and moral concerns, rather than greed.

      Our universities should be completely free, that should not even be a question up for debate. We can make that affordable by changing our economy so that all jobs pay for a comfortable life…that means tax the poverty producers.
      If there were no greedy people hogging resources and forcing the majority into poverty, then all jobs could provide a liveable wage and then our university enrolments would drop…we could then afford free tertiary education for those who WANT to study…our current greed based economy makes tertiary education a NEED…that is why universities cost NZ so much money.

      UpandComer: see how its possible for free tertiary education to be logic, realistic and achievable?..that’s a sociological critique of our education system and economy. That’s what they teach in BA courses, but it means bringing in ethical and moral concerns to our economic ideals…No wonder National have pumped money into engineering and science at the cost of BA programmes, Labour are hardly any better.

    • Carol 18.3

      Similarly, why should I have to pay mega taxes if I ever manage to sweat my way to a decent income to pay snotty brats $210 dollars per week to study the finer points of what makes a BA irrelevant to anything monetary in most instances?

      And why should my taxes go to fund students who study (usually neoliberal and shonkey) economics, MBAs, Masters in business etc etc.? The graduates of such courses will go on to participate in the commodification of the commons, shifting of the wealth from the least powerful to the elite and consequently the destruction and degradation of society and the communities that make it up. /sarc.

      Also, I agree with DTB@2.01pm

  19. agora 19

    “lol rofl” = “Laughing Out Loud, Rolling On The Floor Laughing”

    Interesting text grammar.

    Hang around on this blog. We need a few more divergent views.

    I have to say that you have had it relatively easy in my eyes.

    I put myself through by doing triple shifts .. including night shifts .. and it was not just

    “watching things standing still at night time and making sure they don’t walk off”

    I am very familiar with the havoc it plays with your body clock.

    Be kind to yourself, and schedule some down time so you can rest, recuperate,
    and regain a sense of balance .. and humour .. and relationships.

    Smell the flowers .. the best things in life are free.

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