Euthanasia bill

Written By: - Date published: 11:42 am, May 1st, 2012 - 136 comments
Categories: death with dignity, Ethics - Tags: , ,

Voluntary euthanasia is a debate that keeps coming back. Authors here have touched on it several times (e.g. here, here, here). There are strong arguments on either side (for the record I am strongly in favour of legalising euthanasia).

The latest round of debate has been triggered by Maryan Street’s “End of Life Choice Bill”. Interesting news recently, that public support for such a measure seems to be growing:

Strong public support for euthanasia

The MP campaigning for the right to die has been buoyed by a poll that shows more than 85 per cent of respondents to a survey supported voluntary euthanasia.

The Sunday Star-Times reader poll of more than 1000 people also found almost three-quarters of people would help a terminally-ill loved one commit suicide, and that support for a law change is highest among men, and those over 60. Labour MP Maryan Street has been working with the Voluntary Euthanasia Society on her End of Life Choice Bill, which would give people the right to “choose how and when they exit this life”.

Apart from church groups, the only organisation to speak out against the Bill (as far as I know) is the Medical Association:

A fresh attempt to get a form of euthanasia onto the statute books is having no impact on the The Medical Association. It’s firmly against doctors helping patients end their lives. …

Ms Street says no doctor could be compelled to assist someone to end their life. Medical Association Chair Paul Ockelford says even so, euthanasia is unethical and cannot be condoned by the Association as a professional body. At the same time, he says the Association is not in a position to oppose individual doctor’s decisions.

I wonder if the views of the Association adequately reflect the views of its members. Perhaps it is time for the Association to consult them.

136 comments on “Euthanasia bill ”

  1. Bill 1

    Given the hippocratic oath…or my sketchy familiarity with it… I guess it’s fair enough that the Medical Association can’t condone euthanasia as an institution. I guess there might be any number of tricky repercussions if they did. And seeing as how it isn’t in a position to “oppose individual doctor’s decisions”, their currently stated position is largely irrelevant.

    But on the issue…to force someone to live a life that would see you hauled in front of the courts were you to impose the same living circumstances on an animal, well…it’s a no brainer really.

    • ianmac 1.1

      I think that the Medical Association could not condone or support a Bill for euthanasia.
      But if it was legally sanctioned I am sure than many individual doctors could and would act.
      So I agree Bill.
      We would have to be very very brave to act to end a life and even if it is legal, most of us would resile from “pressing the button.” Would you? I think I might but…….
      Hope the Bill goes through but can’t see this Government being that brave.

    • rosy 1.2

      to force someone to live a life that would see you hauled in front of the courts were you to impose the same living circumstances on an animal, well…it’s a no brainer really

      Agree, Bill. And I agree with this from r0b’s link:

      Otago University law faculty associate professor Colin Gavaghan, a medical law and ethics specialist, said the law was not black and white, and a change could be made to provide guidance, particularly around assisted suicide… He said he had heard of people being given high morphine doses at the end of their lives by doctors who would have known what they were doing.

      “I’d be surprised if that didn’t happen everywhere. It would be good if we could at least get to a situation where we could be honest about it.” He said a new law would need to ask who would take the final step.

      “Assisted suicide can be seen as safer because the patient has to. But some individuals have degenerative conditions and if the law requires them to take the final step, they might do it sooner rather than later while they still can.

      “The thing none of us want, is a nod and a wink culture where we know it goes on behind closed doors. My preference would be an honest culture where you could say, ‘I did this, knowing that would happen, and it was the right thing to do’.”

      I’ve discussed this issue with someone very close to me and have a power of attorney and will written for this person (not my partner) to make decisions on my behalf, in line with my preferences, and if the law allows it. Other people close to me also know what my choices are. I’d love if I had more legal power to detail those choices more accurately but because the law doesn’t allow assisted suicide all that can happen is advising doctors of my wishes if I’m unable to and granting permission for withdrawing treatment, I suppose.

      As a person with a very utilitarian view of my own life and having a chronic illness that could become debilitating I’ve though about what this means for me quite a lot. I don’t think a euthanasia law contradicts, or should detract from, better care of older, terminally ill or disabled people.

      The level I want is that as a fully informed, mentally proficient person, I have the right to decide how and when I want my life to end. No-one else has the right to make that decision for me while I can choose to do so myself. If I can no longer choose, someone/people I trust can choose for me in line with my wishes. And I hate the thought that I might choose to end my life before I’m ready simply because I’m terrified of living past a point when I really don’t want to be here, and that someone dear to me might end up in a legal bind because I’ve left it too late.

    • locus 1.3

      There’s cause for people to believe in misapplication of law and also in a possible shift in tolerance/control by society once a law permitting euthanasia exists. These fears and beliefs are essential if we are to ensure that these risks are eliminated. I have faith in our medical profession and in our legal system and in society as a whole to ensure that sufficient safeguards and layers of protection are in place. Independent medical and ethical assessments of every application would be an example of what I mean by ‘safeguard’. Maybe an opt-in system could be developed?

      There will always be people who don’t trust that this kind of control of risk is sufficient or those who personally find euthanasia morally unacceptable. And whichever position you take, experience forges stronger opinions.

      Is it okay to let circumstances that occur every day in hospitals and hospices continue while they may be argued by some to be tacit euthanasia? What is tacit euthanasia? Is it when someone’s palliative care reduces their life expectancy? Or when life-extending treatment is withheld?

      My view is that on a case by case basis, and under strictly controlled and independently reviewed circumstances, euthanasia should be approved. Why do I hold this view? Because to object to any kind of circumstances where euthanasia is acceptable shows a fundamental lack of compassion and humanity. Truly the most awful thing I can imagine is to see a loved one dying in a horrible, undignified and utterly miserable way if an earlier, less torturous exit was their wish (or the wish of their parents in the case of a child).

  2. bad12 2

    Ah ETHICAL considerations are at the heart of the Medical Associations opposition to giving doctors the right to Kill their patients,

    In Ethics we have portrayed the encapsulation of the difference between the neo-liberal Capitalist and the neo-liberal Socialist,

    The neo-liberal Capitalist is engrossed in the freedom of the individual only as far as making a buck is concerned,

    The neo-liberal Socialist by contrast is engrossed in the freedom of the individual from social moral and ethical constraints,

    How soon after Euthanasia becomes legal will it be seen fit to introduce some form of compulsion into the system for one or other sector of society…

    • Bill 2.1

      sheesh, that’s like saying no-one should be allowed to freely swim in ‘that’ river ’cause pretty soon afterwards everyone will be getting thrown in whether they want to or not and regardless of whether they are capable of swimming.

      • bad12 2.1.1

        Is it really, I consider that a poor analogy to use in the debate, to me that simply attempts to trivialize the magnitude of such a Law change,

        We have legislation that allows abortion,there are strict guidelines within the Legislation which sets out the conditions under which a Doctor may condone an abortion,

        As late as 18 months ago we have a Judge in the High Court at Wellington saying that Capital Coast Health is providing abortions outside of the requirements of the Law in effect giving ‘abortion on demand’ which is neither the intent or the letter of the current Law,

        Thats the glaring example of a Law that covers life and death that has now been completely corrupted by ‘demand’ and peoples personal Doctors interpreting the Law as being ‘abortion on demand’,

        Should ‘we’ be worried about such laws where life and death are the out-come, in my view yes,as the judgment from the Wellington High Court shows,such Laws are easily misinterpreted,corrupted,and, misapplied…

        • McFlock 2.1.1.1

          Did the court say that CapCoast was forcing abortions on women against their will?
             
          No?
             
          Useless comparison then.
                  
          You might as well bring up the people who do 105kph when the speed limit is 100kph.

          • bad12 2.1.1.1.1

            Nope,in essence what the Judge in the Wellington High Court was saying but didn’t spell out was that women were in effect forcing the death of their unborn children upon those children where no legal right to do so existed,

            In such a case Capital Coast Health is complicit by not applying the Law as it was written…

            • McFlock 2.1.1.1.1.1

              Does abortion in NZ require the informed request of the zygote?
                    
              If not your comparison is still weak.

              • bad12

                Nope the Law,in this case governing the provision of abortions, requires that the carrier of the unborn child fit within a set of criteria if the carrier of that child wish’s to kill that unborn child,

                So,both the mothers of those children aborted when the mother’s do not fit within the legal criteria and those who help the mother’s kill those unborn children are acting outside of any Law,

                Thus,all those involved are forcing death upon those unborn children and the presumption in New Zealand Law is that of the right to life which is why we have Laws with strict criteria which govern how why and when a unborn child can be killed,

                PS,if my comparison is in any way weak then the question you ask is just plain stupid,my use of what HAS happened within abortion Law is simply to point out how easily it is for the individual,the institution,and society to twist the law to its own wants and in essence have one group ignore the law,

                Remembering that such ignorance of this particular law results in the death of a child…

                • McFlock

                  Nope.

                  Abortion:
                  primary requester = woman.
                  Decision-makers = 2 doctors who decide whether woman will become insane if she has the kid.
                   
                  Slide: Decision-makers granting woman’s request at her request.

                  Euthanasia:
                  Primary requester = patient. 
                  Decision-makers =  2 doctors who decide whether to grant patient’s request.  
                     
                  Equivalent Slide: Decision-makers granting  patient’s request too easily.

                  Your Slide: Decision-makers killing patients against their will.
                      
                       
                  You abortion analogy is unsound.

                  • NickS

                    +1

                    Though I foresee a specific ethics board being set up instead of it being two doctors until euthanasia’s been legalised for a decade or more as there will be significant resistance from some doctors over this.

                  • bad12

                    The perfect reply of complete ignorance from you,my whole point having brought abortion into the debate was that it is Law where life and death are at issue,

                    My whole point which you completely ignore either because you have no answer or are in fact just being ignorant is based upon a judgement in the High Court at Wellington where the judge found that the Law on the provision of abortion was not being adhered to,

                    Such ignorance of the abortion Law has simply lead to abortion on demand outside of the legal requirements and should Euthanasia be come legal there is no guarantee that such Law will not be corrupted in much the same way that abortion law has,

                    Your slide as you put it is a slide into anarchy where abortions are being granted outside of the provision of the Law….

                    • McFlock

                      Not arguing that abortions were done outside the law.
                             
                      But arguing that just because one law was broken in one way means that another law will be broken in a completely different way is not a reasonable analogy.
                                    
                               
                      Making it more easier than the legislators intended for someone to have a procedure done on them does not equate, on any level, to enabling other people to force that procedure upon the person.
                           
                      If anything the openness required for such a discussion would make that slide less likely than it is now – Shipman springs to mind.  

                  • Foreign Waka

                    This theory only stands if all parameters are the same: Sound mind, week body. However, cases are varied as they come. There are two issues that cannot be solved by any law: ethics and the right to live (rather than die) and any misuse i.e when money is involved and/or inconvenience or stress factors hastens the patients demise without consent. By having granted permission beforehand to assist dying it will be almost impossible to prove murder.
                    I also feel that by “getting use” to this as a concept who says that it will not be a request in a couple of decades to have people who financially become a “drain” just being “assisted”. Such a theory was in existence before, some 70 odd years ago…

                • rosy

                  Carrier of the unborn child!?
                  Fairly reductionist version of a thinking, feeling, communicating woman there bad12.

                  • bad12

                    Feel free to insert,thinking feeling etc etc,if i were to be typing such as a descriptive of the carrier of the unborn child in all the comments i make on the subject on the subject it would become a very long day…

                    • rosy

                      You could use ‘woman’ or ‘pregnant woman’. Just a thought.

                    • bad12

                      Do you perhaps find my use of ”carrier of the unborn child offensive”,nit picking is usually the province of the chimps…

                    • NickS

                      nit picking is usually the province of the chimps…

                      We bow at your utter inability to insult, and general lack of awareness that makes you incapable of recognising the semantic issues with your use of “unborn child”.

                      But I wouldn’t expect anything less given your seeming inability to grasp reality.
                      /smugface

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      You’re making a bit of a dick of yourself, bad12. There’s a lot you could learn from rosy.

                    • rosy

                      “Do you perhaps find my use of ”carrier of the unborn child offensive”

                      I find it excludes one of the decision-makers in the debate. I also don’t think it’s nit-picking to point that out. I’m not really interested in an analogy between abortion and euthanasia and have no wish to commented on it.

                      I am interested when, in a debate that centres around the rights, intellectual capacity, emotions and actions of a woman, these are reduced to a level where she is no longer an actor in the play. The words you use carry a lot of weight, as I know you’re aware.

                    • bad12

                      Ahhh ”excludes one of the decision makers”,would that be the Doctor by any chance,or,perhaps the male donor of DNA which has resulted in someone(s) wishing to kill the unborn baby…

                    • rosy

                      “Ahhh ”excludes one of the decision makers”,would that be the Doctor by any chance,or,perhaps the male donor of DNA which has resulted in someone(s) wishing to kill the unborn baby…

                      lolz and you’ve defined them as the carrier of the unborn child?

                      Sorry bad12, but I’m not getting into an abortion debate with you. I stand by my original point about your use of ‘carrier of the unborn child’

                • NickS

                  What a lulzy post to chew on:

                  Remembering that such ignorance of this particular law results in the death of a child…

                  No, it’s a fucking fetus you idiot, and late term abortions are usually to do with lethal, or soon to be lethal conditions either present in the fetus or mother. Calling it an “unborn child” is merely an bit of disingenuous moral blackmailing that seeks to over-ride the bodily rights of the mother.

                  So,both the mothers of those children aborted when the mother’s do not fit within the legal criteria and those who help the mother’s kill those unborn children are acting outside of any Law,

                  Except they’re not, as the recent <a href="http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10729547"Appeal Court case last year established. And this part of your post is rather bullshit too under the 2008 High Court ruling as well. But hey, why bother with teh legal realities, when delusions are soo much more comforting?

                  PS,if my comparison is in any way weak then the question you ask is just plain stupid,my use of what HAS happened within abortion Law is simply to point out how easily it is for the individual,the institution,and society to twist the law to its own wants and in essence have one group ignore the law,

                  lolwut?

                  Oh, yeah, I forgot you seem to have no understanding about how common law works do you, nor the political bullshit that went on with the legalisation of abortion in NZ that lead to a half-arsed compromise that wasn’t workable?

                  • bad12

                    Which bit of it don’t you understand???the individual?the carrier of the unborn child that wants to kill it,

                    The institution???,medical professionals and medical institutions who allow the carriers of unborn children to kill them outside of the provisions of the law,

                    The society???which ignores the fact that so many carriers of unborn children are allowed to kill them outside of the provisions of the law,

                    C’mon then,its been a slow day and i need a real gut busting laugh explain all this common law vis a vis abortion law to me…

                    • NickS

                      Trololololol.

                      Which bit of it don’t you understand???the individual?the carrier of the unborn child that wants to kill it,

                      lolwut? gb2highschool and retake english please, because you’ve failed reading comprehension 101 completely, and haven’t picked up the rather obvious fact that I’m pro-choice…

                      Anyhow, you’ve really made a mess in the above post, so maybe you should try reading my post above with your neo-cortex fully engaged?

                  • bad12

                    PS,the only place your link gets me is todays granny Herald and I can’t find anything that carries a remote reference to anything we are discussing here,

                    Perhaps i need better glasses???…

                  • muzza

                    “Calling it an “unborn child” is merely an bit of disingenuous moral blackmailing that seeks to over-ride the bodily rights of the mother”

                    — And yet the article you linked to used exactly the same wording!

                    “lolwut? gb2highschool ”

                    — WTF is that!

                    @Rosy – It was never an abortion debate, you were not asked to join one!

                    • NickS

                      /facepalm
                      Linking to an article that uses it (via quoting the right to colonise the uteri of every women brigade) does not mean that I approve of it you twit. I’m just linking to provide information.

                      As for the bit you don’t understand, try contextualising it and google always helps when it comes to net slang…

                    • rosy

                      @Rosy – It was never an abortion debate, you were not asked to join one!

                      Ahhh ”excludes one of the decision makers”,would that be the Doctor by any chance,or,perhaps the male donor of DNA which has resulted in someone(s) wishing to kill the unborn baby…

                      Nah – nothing to do with abortion. And not directed at me.

                    • muzza

                      “/facepalm
                      Linking to an article that uses it (via quoting the right to colonise the uteri of every women brigade) does not mean that I approve of it you twit. I’m just linking to provide information. ”

                      —-No Nick thats right it doesn’t, but you bothered to make a specific example of the use of the terminology as some lame attack on another poster. I was pointing out the fact that it is used in the link you posted, and you had not seemed to feel it was worth balancing your attack, or perhaps you could not understand the article you linked to…comprehending yet!

                      “As for the bit you don’t understand, try contextualising it and google always helps when it comes to net slang”…

                      —Thats ironic you should use such slang in the same sentence as questioning another posters english abilities, and something about going back to high school…Is that what they teach at school these days, or is that the new tertiary google/slang level you were recently rinsed through Nick?

                      B12’s point raised are valid, as is the critique of the linked article in the below posts. We don;t always have to agree, but all cards in such discussion should be on the table. The abortion law comparision is 100% appropriate to use!

                    • NickS

                      Cthulhu fhtagn!

                      —-No Nick thats right it doesn’t, but you bothered to make a specific example of the use of the terminology as some lame attack on another poster. I was pointing out the fact that it is used in the link you posted, and you had not seemed to feel it was worth balancing your attack, or perhaps you could not understand the article you linked to…comprehending yet!

                      Oh the burning stupid…

                      Lolwut? is the best answer here sadly, as you’re assuming things on the basis of jack all information. Namely that there was some sort of intention and obligation in my linking to a news article beyond mere sourcing of information about a point of law.

                      But hey, why think critically when it’s soo much more fun to build a house of bullshit on thin data?

                      —Thats ironic you should use such slang in the same sentence as questioning another posters english abilities, and something about going back to high school…Is that what they teach at school these days, or is that the new tertiary google/slang level you were recently rinsed through Nick?

                      /chuckle

                      Meme’s infect, meme’s based on slang even more so, especially when they provide novel, succinct means of communicating frustration at human stupidity thus encountered on teh net in all it’s various blind to critical thinking forms.

                      As for teh english dig, I can only sadface at such a sad attempted attack which acts as though the reading comprehension issue bad12 shows is somehow of equivalent nature to net slag /smugface

                      B12′s point raised are valid, as is the critique of the linked article in the below posts. We don;t always have to agree, but all cards in such discussion should be on the table. The abortion law comparision is 100% appropriate to use!
                      No they’re not, because as has already been bashed out here, the analogy is somewhat wanting due to the Appeal Court decision. There’s also a further issue in terms of abortion and euthanasia being rather different legal and ethical beasties if you aren’t a rabid pro-lifer who thinks a fetus is a person, but hey, some people are just stupid about somethings.

                      Like you when in comes to vaccines.

                    • muzza

                      @ NickS in case you missed this succinct post below!

                      Galeandra 12
                      2 May 2012 at 12:54 am
                      @ NickS & McFlock
                      Supercilious smart-arsery seems to be a common failing of those lucky enough, ie young enough, to have recent academic experience and accessed just the book, lecturer or wiki definitions for the debate at hand. What is wrong with respectful dignified discussion? Your tone smacks of false authority where grandstanding is more important to you than the ethical debate.

                      Not everyone is malicious or moronic because their beliefs are grounded on different experiences or learning.

                      Lighten up.

                  • bad12

                    Ah the Auckland Court of Appeal decision,in effect,if the body overseeing the doctors who are certifying the abortions believe any of these abortions to be certified outside of the laws provision such a body can not bother the High Court trying to stop what it sees as unlawful activity, it should instead bring the matter up with the Parliament,

                    And,if the ”right to lifers” have the same problem of seeing abortions being granted and performed outside of the laws provisions they too should not molest the High Court seeking declarity orders but instead take their concerns to the Police,

                    A neat way for the Court of Appeal to rubber-stamp ‘abortion on demand’ dont you think,

                    The grand piece tho would have to be their Honor’s definition of the ‘right to life of an unborn child’, which appears from that read of what their honor’s have to say is zilch,

                    Nada,zip,none in law and none implied,but,but,but,I beg the question your Honor”s,and the question would have to go something like this,

                    Why the fuck would the Parliament spend its fucking time Legislating a complex piece of Law granting provision of the right to terminate the life of an unborn child if the poor fucking kid what wasn’t yet born didn’t have a right to be born in law or implied in the first place???,

                    One for the next Court up i presume…

                    • McFlock

                      Ah the Auckland Court of Appeal decision,in effect,if the body overseeing the doctors who are certifying the abortions believe any of these abortions to be certified outside of the laws provision such a body can not bother the High Court trying to stop what it sees as unlawful activity, it should instead bring the matter up with the Parliament, 

                      Wrong again. “The decisions of certifying consultants involved medical judgment alone. Any complaints about certifying consultants could be made to and investigated by, with all the required safeguards, the Health and Disability Commissioner or police.” In other words, if you have an issue with a particular case, take it through the standard case review processes. Claiming it “should instead bring the matter up with the Parliament” is just being a drama queen.
                       
                       But thanks for being a useful idiot – I had not real cause to look for judgements online specifically, but it might have an incidental use at work.

            • QoT 2.1.1.1.1.2

              Or, you know, people with basic empathy might consider that actually, being forced to carry a pregnancy to term against one’s will entirely fulfils the criteria of risk to the mental health of the pregnant person.

              But for that you have to give a crap about actual living people, instead of using emotively-labelled zygotes to control women’s lives.

              • bad12

                Do ya catch these zygotes by accident, well nah to be afflicted with one of these zygotes you either have to deliberately take actions to get one or be forced,

                Of course in a case where having one of these zygotes were to be forced then the law is there specificly to remove such a zygote put there by force,

                Using the law in question tho as the default contraceptive device is in fact the ultimate in taking no responsibility for ones actions,

                Its an interesting accusation that, I, because i chose to call them for what they are,unborn babies, am accused of playing upon emotion in a debate,

                Yeah i do,bring emotion into the debate, simply because I am not some dead in the head fish,and, its what they are, unborn babies…

                • NickS

                  Wow, it’s almost like we’ve got someone straight from the places FSTDT harvests quotes from…

                  Meh, need to eat, not enough time to /cluebat such delicious stupidity and misogynistic bullshit.

                  • rosy

                    What a great link NickS. I particularly like this:

                    “ Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has. ”
                    —Beryl Baptist Church, Pharyngula (quoting Martin Luther)

                    So short and to the point. I suspect many, many reasoning people have found can now say they have a statement in common with fundamentalists. And, I think, valid on a post such as this.

                    (nb – specifically fundamentalists, not the vast majority of thoughtful and reasonable religious people out there).

                    It’s not only about religion though – it’s also about faith in the health system, society and government to do the right thing, faith that people will act in the ‘right’ way. (That’s why I have legal documents outlining my wishes – with the hope that the legal environment for end of life decisions will become more flexible).

                    Faith really needs to be kicked out of the debate so specific points can be thrashed out. Like:

                    – is there a link between legal euthanasia and poor aged/palliative care?
                    – are there enough safeguards that an end of life choice is that of the person at end of life?
                    – at what stage is euthanasia ‘safe’ – a patient requested withdrawal of treatment? a family request? additional painkillers that will end life? or suicide at an earlier stage?
                    – does lack of end of life options increase suicide rates, especially among the elderly?
                    – how does an living will work?
                    – for people absolutely opposed to withdrawal of treatment will there be safeguards to cover their wish to have all available medical means to live until ‘god’ decides? (I suspect there is an issue about that right now).

                    There are of course many more questions.

                    • NickS

                      The problem is there’s still too many religious people who can’t grasp the idea that secularism is good, in that it prevents them being stood over by other religious groups and invariably doesn’t force them to do anything they don’t want to. Except of course, it prevents them forcing their particular set of religious morals upon others via the law, which they seem to think everyone should share and generally violating the human rights of others (including children, who are human as well :P). Although they lack the base here in NZ to retard the progress of human rights as much as they do in USA.

                      (That’s why I have legal documents outlining my wishes – with the hope that the legal environment for end of life decisions will become more flexible).

                      It probably will be, the current rate of decline in religious belief in the developed world, combined with the replacement of the old guard in parliament will likely lead to euthanasia becoming legal in NZ. Hell last time it was before parliament in 03 it only failed by four votes, so I’d expect that within a decade, at the earliest, it’ll probably pass into law.

                    • rosy

                      ” Hell last time it was before parliament in 03 it only failed by four votes, so I’d expect that within a decade, at the earliest, it’ll probably pass into law.”

                      I hope so, but maybe not this time. There are a few more social conservatives in parliament right now, and despite it not opposing individual doctor’s decisions, the bill doesn’t have the support of the Medical Association, so I’m a little pessimistic. If the MA maintained a neutral stance I’d be more optimistic.

                • QoT

                  Do ya catch these zygotes by accident, well nah to be afflicted with one of these zygotes you either have to deliberately take actions to get one or be forced,

                  BOOM! Pretending to care about the Sanctity of Life to “but you’re a slut!!!!” in one comment. I love how predictable you control-freak pseudomoralists are.

                  • NickS

                    QoT = Awesomeness

                  • bad12

                    This has to be one of the more bizaare posts from the freedom to Kill lot, Do I mention the word slut anywhere???

                    Well no,its the old trick of when they have no lucid debate to offer,they make allegations about what I have said in a comment with no basis in fact nor reality,

                    Its supposed to turn readers against me so as they don’t read what the message is,its supposed to hi-jack a post changing the debate into one of did i or did I not say words to the effect,

                    The fact is it is only QoT who has ‘thought’ up the word slut to drag into the debate twisting an earlier comment of mine as if it is meant to convey that word in some way shape or form,

                    My earlier comment in no way portrays any such thing, Zygotes being babies in the womb would by definition have to have actions of some deliberation to get such a baby into said womb,

                    After all its only in books like the Bible where zygotes appear within the womb of a woman without some form of specific action being taken to have such a zygote appear,

                    what a pathetic low browed means of debate QoT has brought into the euthanasia debate by dragging such insinuations as made above into it,

                    I have a far more refreshing discourse with the rhesus monkeys up at the zoo whenever I have the time to get up there…

                    • QoT

                      You’re completely correct, bad12, I’m just trying to discredit you by making the good folks of The Standard think you said the word “slut”, which would obviously be a hanging offence.

                      Or, alternatively, I was paraphrasing your fairly surreal statement “Do ya catch these zygotes by accident, well nah to be afflicted with one of these zygotes you either have to deliberately take actions to get one or be forced,”

                      … which basically boils down to “it’s your fault for spreading your legs / being a slut / having Teh Sex so pregnancy is your punishment!”

                      This was hilarious to me, as it’s so rare for a controlling-women-focused trololol like yourself to go so quickly from pretending to give a shit about The Sacwed Pwecious Unborn to admitting it’s all really about hating women who have sex.

        • Bill 2.1.1.2

          Why is it a poor analogy? At what point does it fall over?

    • Olwyn 2.2

      I feel as if I have blathered on this subject for days. While I do not think that direct compulsion would arise under the present circumstances, I do think that an extension of already existing conditions would drive people in that direction whether it was what they wanted or not; palliative care following a user-pays model for instance, and further reductions in aged care. And should a decent number succumb under these conditions, the status quo will change and the burden of proof with it. Hence I am opposed to the introduction of euthanasia.

      • seeker 2.2.1

        Very well said Olwyn. I too am opposed to the introduction of euthanasia.

      • NickS 2.2.2

        Have a look at the situation in the Netherlands, aged care quality hasn’t slipped at since the introduction and euthanasia only accounts for about 3% of deaths at most there. There’s also plain old human stubbornness and the fact that the person requesting euthanasia is the one that makes the request, either in person or via a living will and has to go through approval before it can happen.

        The main issue with preventing human rights abuses is to insure that the human rights of the elderly are looked after and defended, albeit NZ still needs to do some serious work on that with the government underfunding aged care far too much. Along with general price of care issues, and quality of care for dementia patients.

        As to your objection, while I do see how it could work, the laws that have been put forward all follow the Netherlands model, so the scope for abuse requires significant fraud and fuckwittery to pull off. And the central thrust of it, that it could be abused, is frankly problematic on the basis of interfering with others rights, namely that euthanasia can be viewed as a a bodily autonomy issue. Then there’s the basic fact that every law is open to abuse, particularly social ones to do with health care, and other human rights issues, so without exploring the potential scale of abuse critically, stating abuse is possible is insufficient grounds to oppose it.

      • Foreign Waka 2.2.3

        Absolutely. And it has nothing to do with religion.

  3. A very good paper by Tom Noakes-Duncan:

    Voluntary Euthanasia in New Zealand:
    An Analysis of Compassion, Autonomy, and Secularism in the Public Sphere

    By: Thomas M. I. Noakes-Duncan
    University of Otago
    March 2012

  4. js 4

    As a commentator said the other day: when does the right to die transform into a duty to die?

    • Bill 4.1

      When there’s a war to be fought.

      • Olwyn 4.1.1

        That involves a duty to risk death, not necessarily to die.

        • Pete George 4.1.1.1

          Many lives have been lost in wars where death was very likely, in some cases a virtual certainty. But that’s just young men in the prime of their life.

    • NickS 4.2

      When the law is ignored via teh imaginary usual paranoid bullshit?

      What it comes down to is an individual making the choice themselves, either via a living will, “do not resuscitate” tattoos, or being mentally competent enough to make the decision themselves. And with all the angst and body-colonisation going on it’s a no-brainer that acquiring a decision granted you the right to die will not be straight forward.

      And slippery slope arguments get boring quickly, especially for those of us who have already thought out thoroughly our positions on euthanasia as a means of cluebatting serious episodes of suicidal ideation.

  5. Grumpy 5

    The slippery slope is alive and well in the Netherlands now……….

  6. Reagan Cline 6

    Voluntary euthanasia is fine as far as it goes but it could end up someone with power of attorney pulls the trigger.
    You and/or the attorney can be powerfully influenced by people around you eg “hurry up and die mum – put yourself and us out of this bloody misery !!”
    I am totally opposed to the active taking of another person’s life. Let us die naturally while we and others do all we can to ease the suffering.
    Withold cares that could prolong life when life is obviously ending, but don’t actively kill someone ! “though shalt not kill” – as true as ever in my view.
    If it goes ahead, the National Socialist regime in Germany will potentially provide a useful model.
    Lack of money should not prevent good, compassionate care before and after birth and in terminal illness, old age and dying.
    The next Labour Governemnt must fight the tide and insist on applying the power of the state to the care and nurturing of our most vulnerable – yes AI

    • but it could end up someone with power of attorney

      Not if the lesgislation doesn’t allow it, and it is unlikely to allow it.

      Let us die naturally

      How naturally? With no medicine or healthcare?

      There is an anomaly now, where a person can choose to die sooner by asking for any treatment or medical equipment to not be used, but they can’t ask for the treatment of their choice to end their life sooner.

      • NickS 6.1.1

        Huh? Pete thinking? lolwut?

        There is an anomaly now, where a person can choose to die sooner by asking for any treatment or medical equipment to not be used, but they can’t ask for the treatment of their choice to end their life sooner.

        This. Not that the anti-euthanasia crowd will touch it though, despite the fact that it’s a glaring issue that causes issues with the somewhat contradictory approach to suicide (either assisted or not) in the NZ legal system. And I would argue that agreeing to an individual’s choice to refuse treatment is a form of assisted suicide on the basis that the individual has made a life-ending choice, which is then allowed via non-intervention to go forward. However, it’s obviously not quite the same as directly assisted suicide where the individual can’t administer or hit a button themselves and requires help.

      • NickS 6.1.2

        How naturally? With no medicine or healthcare?

        Now this is whole another barrel of worms that raises a nested set of twisty epistemological questions about “what is natural?” that invariably undermines the common concept of “natural” and leads unto madness 😛

        Along with having loads of fun driving the whole “nature = best” alt.med crowd nuts as you take their poorly thought out definitions to teh logical conclusions.

        Anyhow, it’s possible to spin an argument that human society and all it’s tools and works are part of nature via the concepts of “external phenotypes” and “emergent phenomena” and that “artificial” merely constitutes a subset of natural phenomena, rather than something non-natural. But Nick too tired to explain fully and the usual faith-heads will probably whine at it leading unto tangential trolling.

      • Reagan Cline 6.1.3

        “die naturally” means to die of natural causes ie vital functions cease because of intrinsic factors.

        For example, the heart stops because the arteries supplying the heart muscle with blood are too blocked, as opposed to stopping because someone has injected a bolus of potassium chloride into the persons blood either directly into the heart or through a vein.

        Some ethical statements to think about:

        “Primum non nocere”

        “Comfort always”

        “Thou shalt not kill, but needst not strive officiously to keep alive”

        • McFlock 6.1.3.1

          The first is falsely attributed to the Hippocratic Oath.
             
          The second is not incompatible with euthanasia.
           
          The third is from  satirical Victorian poems about the ten commandments and suchlike.
              
          But thanks for assuming that people discussing the euthanasia debate haven’t looked at the issue in such a categorical and shallow way.
             
           

        • NickS 6.1.3.2

          Ah yes, because one should die in pain from the terminal disease which leads to their respiratory system collapsing (and so heart failure), instead of being allowed to choose a far less painful means via chemical agents.

          Because it’s far more natural to be forced to suffer than not.

          • QoT 6.1.3.2.1

            Hey Nick, stop making sense. And let’s promise not to bring up the whole fact that Western medicine basically exists to stand between us and “nature”.

            • NickS 6.1.3.2.1.1

              Awwww, but I can’t help it, doing History and Philosophy of Science made me make serious sense about these things :/

  7. bad12 7

    Yes i know it all sounds so prettily effete, you know going through a strictly defined process where ONLY those who ask for it will be KILLED by the good Doktor,

    But is it,here’s the reality,

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/…now-Dutch-turn-legalised-mercy-killing/ht...

    This ones ‘opinion’ but chilling non the less,

    http://www.nationalreview.com/…/euthanasia-spreads-europe-wesly-j-smit...

    That one got me to thinking, gosh that almost sounds like fun,(possibly this evenings insanity is fueled by the scratching I received above),wonder if I can perhaps become a Doctor,

    I detect self preservation at work here in a if you can’t beat em join em sort of fashion…

    • bad12 7.1

      Well that worked well not, just tried the link I put up and it goes nowhere where i can see the story in the daily mail i just read,

      Will have to try and dig it out again…

      • NickS 7.1.1

        1) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1234295/Now-Dutch-turn-legalised-mercy-killing.html
        Ah, the DailyFail.

        Seriously though, a tabloid newspaper? Have ye no shame? How about BBC, or even Reuters? Because the DailyFail is oft known to make shit up and distorting stuff in order to turn a buck via sensationalism. Not to forget either that they’re not good a ye olde fact checking on the bullshit some of their sources say.

        Now the reality is actually far more interesting, as the legal situation in the Netherlands allows for legal post-birth euthanasia of infants under certain conditions (i.e. birth reveals untreatable, low life expectancy conditions and the parents both give their consent).

        As for hospices disappearing, lolwut? Because it seems to me that’s a giant load of bullshit given the strong anti-euthanasia, pro-palliative care stuff coming from religious groups in the Netherlands and some quick rummaging in teh literature doesn’t reveal any declines in quality of care and it seems that in 04 care levels were high for those dying.

        2) http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/281303/euthanasia-spreads-europe-wesley-j-smith
        First thoughts on glancing on it – pseudo intellectual wanking.

        And judging by teh authors wikibio I think my initial reaction is on the money, as he swings with a known group of colossal faith-blinded intellectual midgets known as the “Discovery Institute” and seems to think that Peter Singer is “mainstream” in bioethics. Which is rather amusing to me for myriad reasons.

        As for the article itself, I’ll cut straight to the point, as someone with a mental illness I see no reason why those like we shouldn’t be allowed to end their lives if they feel their quality of life is completely shit and isn’t going to improve. Heck, it’s this idea which I’ve used as part of my toolkit for dealing with suicidal ideation, and thanks to better living through chemistry and teh welfare state I do have a good enough quality of life that I’m unlikely to euthanise myself unless I end up in the last stages of a painful terminal disease/condition. But some don’t, and making them live with it is frankly disgustingly selfish.

        And Wesley seems to have serious issues with understanding that people’s views on moral issues can change. Which makes me wonder whether or not he was ever pro-homosexual law reform.

        What I find interesting is how he twists The Groningen Protocol into something monstrous, when the first two protocols deal with lethal conditions in newborns that will kill them soon after birth or carry poor longterm prognoses, while the third one deals with the very severely disabled. In all cases though, choice is not taken away from the parents. And as to moral obligations, well, there are significant ethical issues with guilt tripping someone into a decision, but given the groups Wesley associates with use this to try and stop women having abortions (r.e. pregnancy “crisis” centres) I’m somewhat amused he even bothers using this line of argument. Not that it makes it any less of an issue, But Wesley fails to bring up any evidence of the law being abused, and seems to do the same with his other examples. Which are basically all scaremongering via implication rather than hard evidence.

        • bad12 7.1.1.1

          Ahhh making stuff up and distorting it just like you do,have a read you will be in good company…

          • NickS 7.1.1.1.1

            Except you show no evidence proving I do that /smugface

            • bad12 7.1.1.1.1.1

              I have no need to,your whole rant of a post above shows that you do,basically what you say is the DailyMail has never printed an article of fact,and,the author of the other provided link is according to you a wanker and is associated with people that you dont like therefor he is to be totally disbelieved because,as you provide little facts to back up your assertions,you say so,

              So, I for one am left with the incredibly enlightening,(not),argument by you that euthanasia is good coz you say so,(gosh we all bow to such wisdom)…

          • NickS 7.1.1.1.2

            Also, when someone goes through and fact-check the claims in the stuff you link to that undermines your arguments, generally you’re meant to try and provide a counter with some meat to it. Instead of accusing them of lying without any backing evidence.

            • bad12 7.1.1.1.2.1

              Oh I get it, as you said about the link I gave,adding that it was opinion,Pseudo intellectual wanking I believe was your fact checking of that particular piece,

              So when you come back at me telling me that I am meant to justify such an answer by finding another webpage that you can pretend to debunk by such the means above do you really think I am going to bother,

              Seems to me that would be just providing you with the opportunity to indulge in a whole pile of that pseudo intellectual wanking yourself…

              • NickS

                lolwut?

                Sense not being made above, could be an attempt at trolling though.

    • bad12 7.2

      Neither of those links seem to work on this web-site,sooo,if your interested in reading why the Dutch politician who steered the legalization of euthanasia through their Parliament now believes She made a mistake,

      Google=euthanasia goes wrong in the Netherlands, its about half way down page 1,and the other link is on page 2…

      • McFlock 7.2.1

        I see you put as much thought into your linking as you did your argument.

  8. Hilary 8

    If euthanasia becomes the norm one consequence could be that there will be less pressure on the government to provide good aged care or good palliative care. It is important to clearly separate the issues so that demands continue for continual improvements in palliative and aged care.

    • Reagan Cline 8.1

      +1

    • NickS 8.2

      Well, looking at the Netherlands example that outcome hasn’t occurred. And given that most aged care centres and hospices are run by religious organisations or for profit in the case of retirement village I don’t see a huge issue emerging. Main issue would if the govt. cuts back on funding, but I’m assuming that the various lobby groups will make that a very difficult thing to even think about.

      • Slap shot 8.2.1

        The Netherlands is not an Anglo country, and does not suffer from the Anglo disease. I would support it there and in countries like Sweden, but I am uneasy about it here. The Rau Williams case put me off it.

    • If euthanasia becomes the norm one consequence could be that there will be less pressure on the government to provide good aged care or good palliative care.

      There are many possible consequences, and like thisn one most are very unlikely. As are possible terrible consequences under the current laws.

      Why would there be less pressure? There should be more pressure – if that’s what people want.

  9. bad12 9

    Ah how easily the debate slips from ITS ONLY FOR THOSE WITH TERMINAL ILLNESSES,and then inserted quietly into the debate is the ”oh and whats wrong with knocking off the babies that have a poor outlook for life”

    Gosh it all sounds soooo pretty and touchy feely,just like no-ones going to get Killed or anything that i might be swayed into agreeing,as long as all the hard core proponents of such offer to go first that is…

    • NickS 9.1

      Hi, I’m bad12 and I like bring up shit via linking to it and then accusing others of doing so whilst throwing a temper-tantrum /smugface

      • bad12 9.1.1

        Aw there there lets not toss the toys,you said of the particular link that it was intellectual wanking,

        You then tell me that as you had ”fact checked” the link and answered it I was supposed to wander off through the web to find you another link to ”fact check” by calling it intallectual wanking,

        That would don’t you think be futile,because if that is ”fact checking” then if the link I provided to you as ‘opinion’ is intellctual wanking so is what you commented about it…

        • NickS 9.1.1.1

          lolwut?

          It’s the only option.

          Next to goatse-ing you for the lulz.

        • McFlock 9.1.1.2
           
           

          That would don’t you think be futile,because if that is ”fact checking” then if the link I provided to you as ‘opinion’ is intellctual wanking so is what you commented about it…

          Lolwut again?
            
          Did you just say that if you see someone wanking and say “that person’s wanking”, you’ve started wanking?
            
          Dude, that only happens in niche-market porn movies. In most real life situations, the onanist ceases self-love. Heck, even in most porn movies the discovery of someone wanking simply results in a fucking. I’ve not even heard of “accidental discovery circle-jerk porn”, and I’ve got an internet connection…
              
           

          • bad12 9.1.1.2.1

            A grand thesis,did you perhaps do a paper on the subject at degree level, i salute you and truly believe that your a master at it…

            • McFlock 9.1.1.2.1.1

              It’s your thesis, you do the degree.
              Maybe gender studies?
              Or sociology.
              Maybe psychology or porn?

    • McFlock 9.2

      lolwut?

  10. bad12 10

    Don’t ya just love the sheer honesty of the debate where over and over the proponents of euthanasia say that such a law would only ever be used to kill off the terminally ill,those in so much pain that modern medicine hasn’t got a pain relief strong enough to relieve their suffering,

    There’s a world of BS just within the terminally ill and in so much pain bit,but right now i am more interested in something that nicks commented on at 10.20,

    ”What I find interesting is how he twists the Groninge protocol into something monstrous, when the first two protocols deal with lethal conditions in newborn babies that will kill them soon after birth or carry poor long-term prognoses” unquote,

    Mmmm that sure as hell shows that the proponents of euthanasia only see it as the final solution for those at lifes end and in great pain,(not),

    Gosh,lets also bump off the babies that are going to die soon after birth, what a grand play God idea, no point of just letting them die soon after birth is there when we can get them first,

    And hell we can all see the beauty in killing some baby befor its born because say it looks like it might be deformed right,

    Hell I forget the pertinent quote,first they came for the cripples,and I said nothing,next they came for the mentally handicapped and i remained silent and on it goes…

    • McFlock 10.1

      That’s not a “quote”. That was some plagiarism that someone did because they weren’t smart enough to write something original.

      • bad12 10.1.1

        whats not a quote???…

      • bad12 10.1.2

        Ah well that’s nothing to bother with then,readers all mostly know what those lines are from,amazing tho just how unintellectual all you intellectuals get at times,

        I call it nit-picking,you know what the chimps get up to for dinner,at times,not on this web-site as yet,but on others,my comments have been intellectualized by the single word,

        Funnier than your ‘thesis’ at 11.31,nah not even close,for me to give you a brief and honest review of that would be to risking banning…

        • McFlock 10.1.2.1

          Really, almost everyone knows where those lines are from? Which pastor wrote them?
          But you can’t link to it?   
              
           

    • McFlock 10.2

      Oh, and it’s not “coming for” them if they’re the ones making an informed request for it.
       
      Comparing the Dutch and swiss models of euthanasia to the Gestapo shipping peope to concentration camps is just stupid.

      • bad12 10.2.1

        Why…

        • McFlock 10.2.1.1

          Let’s see: scale, the objective of eradication of entire peoples, and MOST IMPORTANTLY the fact that the people taking the happy-hitler package holidays didn’t want to go.
              
          I mean, really dude – that’s just dumb.

          • bad12 10.2.1.1.1

            what, dumber than your post at 11.31, nah nothing will top that…

            • McFlock 10.2.1.1.1.1

              I was taking the piss.
              You’re trying to be serious.
                  
              Nice deflection, though. “oh noes, he pointed out three fundamental difference between the proposed legislation and Nazi Germany, so I will point out he has a potty mouth”.
              Yep, really subtle. /sarc

  11. bad12 11

    Heres another grand nicks quote from His comment at 10.20,

    ”And wesley seems to have serious issues with understanding that peoples views on moral issues can change”

    That of course is what nicks calls ”fact checking” what has been said in the links i put up back up the comments page a bit,

    Its called the pot calling the kettle black right,when i also posted a link to the fact that Dr Els Borst the former Dutch Minister of Health and deputy Prime Minister who steered the Dutch euthanasia law through their Parliament now thought the law was wrong the ”fact checking” was confined to derision of the newspaper which quoted Her as saying such,

    Having said it Himself,nicks also seems to have trouble understanding that peoples views on moral issues can change,specially those of a person who has pushed a euthanasia law through a Parliament, seen its effects on society in Her own country and now obviously wishes she had not promoted such a law….

    • seeker 11.1

      bad 12 have noticed that you have battled for nearly 12 hours on this thread (McFlock behind you by one and half hours). However I agree with your point of view and thank you for your valiant battle against arguments for the introduction of euthanasia.You have done well in my opinion, especially with your point “seen its effects on society in Her own country and now obviously wishes she had not promoted such a law….” in your the last paragraph of your 12.24am comment. Thanks.

      • bad12 11.1.1

        Hell have I been on here for that long, I better get outta here befor I start putting up stuff like mac’s at 11.31,

        Tah much for the ups,and i bid you good night…

  12. Galeandra 12

    @ NickS & McFlock
    Supercilious smart-arsery seems to be a common failing of those lucky enough, ie young enough, to have recent academic experience and accessed just the book, lecturer or wiki definitions for the debate at hand. What is wrong with respectful dignified discussion? Your tone smacks of false authority where grandstanding is more important to you than the ethical debate.

    Not everyone is malicious or moronic because their beliefs are grounded on different experiences or learning.

    Lighten up.

    • McFlock 12.1

      Not everyone is malicious or moronic because their beliefs are grounded on different experiences or learning.

         
      Agreed. But imo B12 was given a fair chance, and frankly yeah on this topic I think they’re being an idiot. They don’t check their sources, barely provide them in fact, and fail to recognise the difference between “request” and “have forced on”.
         
      But point taken – I’ll go to bed.
         
       
       

  13. Sean Davison claimed that in places where assisted death was allowed the suicide rate amongst the elderly dropped significantly.

    If true it is likely to be because it’s common (normal) for people with terminal illnesses to fear having a long drawn out, uncomfortable, painful undignified death. Some avoid this by committing suicide while they are still capable of doing it themselves.

    If assisted suicide is legal there is no need to jump the gun.

    And many of those who seriously considered suicide will end up dying without needing to resort to ending their own lives prematurely.

  14. I’ve been posting on euthanasia and and am collating information and keeping track of discussions.

    I’m going to keep a running summary on the menu here: http://yournz.org/euthanasia/

    If anyone has anything to suggest to be added please let me know. I’m doing this to help promote discussion on euthanaisa, it’s important that we have a thorough and well informed debate on it. I’m learning and modifying my views as discussion progresses. I’ll included reasonable sources from any side of the argument.

  15. bad12 15

    I have said this befor about Euthanasia,i think in ‘Open Mike’ but seeing as there’s not lots going on in this post by way of comments this morning I will repeat it for the record so to speak,

    My view of Euthanasia is that it is simply ‘the logical conclusion’ of Neo-Capitalism where those who work are not considered as People,but instead as mere red or black ink, as a cost/profit item within the book-keeping of the Neo-Capitalist Ism,

    Our Slippery Prime Minister is in favor of Euthanasia and I can bet he couches such support in favor in terms carefully constructed so as not to offend,

    Here tho is the then Australian Governor-General, Bill Hayden, obviously a fellow traveler with Slippery speaking in 1995 to the College of Physicians during the debate over the Northern Territory’s then proposed euthanasia law,

    I took the quote off of the NZ-anti euthanasia site prolife.org.nz/tag/euthanasia

    ”There is a point when the succeeding generations deserve to be disencumbered of some unproductive burdens” unquote Bill Hayden 1995,

    Nice one Bill, thats saying it how you see it while stripping away all of the pretty codified language that a lot of the pro-euthanasia lobby use to promote killing off the elderly…

    • McFlock 15.1

      Is that the NZ proposal? No.
             
      Basically, you can’t distinguish between an act performed at someone’s request and with their informed consent, and an act forced on someone against their will.
           
      You position is that voluntary euthanasia should be illegal because it might cause some people to be murdered? By that logic, you’d also think that sex should be illegal because some people are raped.
            
      After all the crap over the last couple of days, I am more sure in my belief that your arguments against voluntary euthanasia are shite.
       
      But I’m still not sure if I support it. Mostly because of depression/other mental health-related suicides. At what point does one distinguish between a genuine and reasonable desire to avoid the torture of a malady, and a transient desire resulting from a depressive episode that will pass? That’s the thorny point for me, not some omg they’re murdering babies bullshit.

      • bad12 15.1.1

        Yes please strop showing us the true nature of your blinkered thinking and blind faith in ‘legislation once its passed and governments once they are installed,

        The fact that you claim that such a law change to allow euthanasia will only allow those with a terminal disease who are in absolute pain is meaningless,

        Your claims are meaningless simply because you now admit that those with mental illness are likely to be able to commit suicide by euthanasia,

        it’s my belief that you have no particular belief one way or the other about euthanasia and have simply used the question to mount a petty pathetic attack on me as a commenter,

        It is obvious that there is a level of disquiet about the misuse of the current abortion laws which has resulted in cases in the High Court and Court of Appeal, I have simply highlighted this as a warning of how I see a euthanasia law could and would be twisted by sector interests to suit their own agenda’s,

        The Auckland Court of Appeal decision highlights for me one thing,and that is that once the misuse of any law becomes entrenched in the way that the current abortion law has then it is way to late,

        The Dutch architect of that country’s euthanasia law has publicly said the same thing, that the former Dutch Health Minister and Deputy Prime Minister who pushed the euthanasia law through the Dutch Parliament now says that She opposes what has transpired as the reality of euthanasia should be warning enough for anyone about supporting any form of legislation in this country that allows euthanasia…

        • McFlock 15.1.1.1
           
           

          Your claims are meaningless simply because you now admit that those with mental illness are likely to be able to commit suicide by euthanasia,
           
          You idiot. Show me where you raised that issue. Show me where I denied it. Show me where I said I’m pro-euthanasia.
                
          My entire argument has been that I’m not entirely sure about euthanasia, but that your arguments against it are complete bunk.
               
          As for the mental health thing, yes I am not sure it is preventable. But then nor am I sure it is not able to be overcome – the bluntest way beng to restrict euthanasia to physical and terminal ailments, and make “unsound mind” (to use the old will & testament phrasing) a criteria for invalidation by overseeing doctors.  
                 
          Shoot – an “abortion kills babies” zealot accusing me of “blinkered thinking”. No hypocrisy there at all.

           
          • bad12 15.1.1.1.1

            Snigger,do you mean to tell me that abortion does not kill the baby in the womb???if you and your mate paid for the ‘higher'(snigger)education you have received i suggest you go get your money back…

            • McFlock 15.1.1.1.1.1

               
              “Higher education”? Your inability to stay on topic makes me doubt you graduated primary school.
                
              Oh that’s right, the post is titled “abortion bill”. It’s not? Oh well, once again:

              You idiot. Show me where you raised that issue. Show me where I denied it. Show me where I said I’m pro-euthanasia.
              Focus, b12, focus.

  16. NickS 16

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_and_the_slippery_slope

    Blessed is wikipedia sometimes 😛

    And ask me nicely enough and I can upload the papers cited if they’re behind a paywall.

  17. telson 17

    This article shows that the euthanasia is morally and ethically wrong; http://koti.phnet.fi/petripaavola/euthanasia.html

    • NickS 17.1

      …And that’s only if you accept the sites particularly theological assumptions, and also that it should apply to those who don’t accept it. Which given it’s a fundamentalist, KJV only, site, that’s a lot of people who wont accept it. And due to theology being theology (i.e. pure fluff) it wouldn’t take long to find a more lucid (for theology) counter argument from a theologist.

      Also lulz at it’s evolutionary biology page, it’s even more half-baked than Kent Hovind’s stuff. Especially teh whole letters thing trying to give theological significance to the choice of DNA via using the Hebrew letters instead. /smugface

      Try again cupcake.

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  • No Longer Trusted: Ageing Boomers, Laurie & Les, Talk Politics.
    Turning Point: What has turned me away from the mainstream news media is the very strong message that its been sending out for the last few years.” “And what message might that be?” “That the people who own it, the people who run it, and the people who provide its content, really don’t ...
    7 hours ago
  • Mortgage rates at 10% anyone?
    No – nothing about that in PM Luxon’s nine-point plan to improve the lives of New Zealanders. But beyond our shores Jamie Dimon, the long-serving head of global bank J.P. Morgan Chase, reckons that the chances of a goldilocks soft landing for the economy are “a lot lower” than the ...
    Point of OrderBy xtrdnry
    11 hours ago
  • Sad tales from the left
    Michael Bassett writes –  Have you noticed the odd way in which the media are handling the government’s crackdown on surplus employees in the Public Service? Very few reporters mention the crazy way in which State Service numbers rocketed ahead by more than 16,000 during Labour’s six years, ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    13 hours ago
  • In Whose Best Interests?
    On The Spot: The question Q+A host, Jack Tame, put to the Workplace & Safety Minister, Act’s Brooke van Velden, was disarmingly simple: “Are income tax cuts right now in the best interests of lowering inflation?”JACK TAME has tested another MP on his Sunday morning current affairs show, Q+A. Minister for Workplace ...
    13 hours ago
  • Don’t Question, Don’t Complain.
    It has to start somewhereIt has to start sometimeWhat better place than here?What better time than now?So it turns out that I owe you all an apology.It seems that all of the terrible things this government is doing, impacting the lives of many, aren’t necessarily ‘bad’ per se. Those things ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    14 hours ago
  • Auckland faces 25% water inflation shock
    Three Waters became a focus of anti-Government protests under Labour, but its dumping by the new Government hasn’t solved councils’ funding problems and will eventually hit the back pockets of everyone. Photo: Lynn Grieveson/Getty ImagesTL;DR: The six news items that stood out to me at 8:06 am today are:The Government ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    16 hours ago
  • Small accomplishments and large ironies
    Hello! Here comes the Saturday edition of More Than A Feilding, catching you up on the past week’s editions.Share Read more ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    18 hours ago
  • The Song of Saqua: Volume VII
    In order to catch up to the actual progress of the D&D campaign, I present you with another couple of sessions. These were actually held back to back, on a Monday and Tuesday evening. Session XV Alas, Goatslayer had another lycanthropic transformation… though this time, he ran off into the ...
    22 hours ago
  • Accelerating the Growth Rate?
    There is a constant theme from the economic commentariat that New Zealand needs to lift its economic growth rate, coupled with policies which they are certain will attain that objective. Their prescriptions are usually characterised by two features. First, they tend to be in their advocate’s self-interest. Second, they are ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    1 day ago
  • The only thing we have to fear is tenants themselves
    1. Which of these acronyms describes the experience of travelling on a Cook Strait ferry?a. ROROb. FOMOc. RAROd. FMLAramoana, first boat ever boarded by More Than A Feilding, four weeks after the Wahine disaster2. What is the acronym for the experience of watching the government risking a $200 million break ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    1 day ago
  • Peters talks of NZ “renewing its connections with the world” – but who knew we had been discon...
    Buzz from the Beehive The thrust of the country’s foreign affairs policy and its relationship with the United States have been addressed in four statements from the Beehive over the past 24 hours. Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters somewhat curiously spoke of New Zealand “renewing its connections with a world ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    1 day ago
  • Muldoonism, solar farms, and legitimacy
    NewsHub had an article yesterday about progress on Aotearoa's largest solar farm, at "The Point" in the Mackenzie Country. 420MW, right next to a grid connection and transmission infrastructure, and next to dams - meaning it can work in tandem with them to maximise water storage. Its exactly the sort ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 day ago
  • NZTA does not know how much it spends on cones
    Barrie Saunders writes –  Astonishing as it may seem NZTA does not know either how much it spends on road cones as part of its Temporary Traffic Management system, or even how many companies it uses to supply and manage the cones. See my Official Information Act request ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    2 days ago
  • If this is Back on Track – let's not.
    I used to want to plant bombs at the Last Night of the PromsBut now you'll find me with the baby, in the bathroom,With that big shell, listening for the sound of the sea,The baby and meI stayed in bed, alone, uncertainThen I met you, you drew the curtainThe sun ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    2 days ago
  • Welfare: Just two timid targets from the National government
    Lindsay Mitchell writes –  The National Government has announced just two targets for the Ministry of Social Development. They are: – to reduce the number of people receiving Jobseeker Support by 50,000 to 140,000 by June 2029, and – (alongside HUD) to reduce the number of households in emergency ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    2 days ago
  • The Hoon around the week to April 12
    Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The podcast above features co-hosts Bernard Hickey and Peter Bale, along with regular guests Robert Patman on Gaza and AUKUS II, Merja Myllylahti on AUT’s trust in news report, Awhi’s Holly Bennett on a watered-down voluntary code for lobbyists, plus special guest Patrick Gower ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    2 days ago
  • A Dead Internet?
    Hi,Four years ago I wrote about a train engineer who derailed his train near the port in Los Angeles.He was attempting to slam thousands of tonnes of screaming metal into a docked Navy hospital ship, because he thought it was involved in some shady government conspiracy theory. He thought it ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    2 days ago
  • Weekly Roundup 12-April-2024
    Welcome back to another Friday. Here’s some articles that caught our attention this week. This Week in Greater Auckland On Wednesday Matt looked at the latest with the Airport to Botany project. On Thursday Matt covered the revelation that Auckland Transport have to subsidise towing illegally parked cars. ...
    Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland
    2 days ago
  • Weekly Roundup 12-April-2024
    Welcome back to another Friday. Here’s some articles that caught our attention this week. This Week in Greater Auckland On Wednesday Matt looked at the latest with the Airport to Botany project. On Thursday Matt covered the revelation that Auckland Transport have to subsidise towing illegally parked cars. ...
    Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland
    2 days ago
  • Antarctic heat spike shocks climate scientists
    A ‘Regime Shift’ could raise sea levels sooner than anticipated. Has a tipping point been triggered in the Antarctic? Photo: Juan Barreto/Getty Images TL;DR: Here’s the top six news items of note in climate news for Aotearoa-NZ this week, and a discussion above that was recorded yesterday afternoon between and ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    2 days ago
  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #15 2024
    Open access notables Global carbon emissions in 2023, Liu et al., Nature Reviews Earth & Environment Annual global CO2 emissions dropped markedly in 2020 owing to the COVID-19 pandemic, decreasing by 5.8% relative to 2019 (ref. 1). There were hopes that green economic stimulus packages during the COVD crisis might mark the beginning ...
    2 days ago
  • Everything will be just fine
    In our earlier days of national self-loathing, we made a special place for the attitude derided as she’ll be right.You don't hear many people younger than age Boomer using that particular expression these days. But that doesn’t mean there are not younger people in possession of such an attitude.The likes of ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    2 days ago
  • Farmers and landlords are given news intended to lift their confidence – but the media must muse o...
    Buzz from the Beehive People working in the beleaguered media industry have cause to yearn for a minister as busy as Todd McClay and his associates have been in recent days. But if they check out the Beehive website for a list of Melissa Lee’s announcements, pronouncements, speeches and what-have-you ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    2 days ago
  • National’s war on renters
    When the National government came into office, it complained of a "war on landlords". It's response? Start a war on renters instead: The changes include re-introducing 90-day "no cause" terminations for periodic tenancies, meaning landlords can end a periodic tenancy without giving any reason. [...] Landlords will now only ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Drawn
    A ballot for two Member's Bills was held today, and the following bills were drawn: Repeal of Good Friday and Easter Sunday as Restricted Trading Days (Shop Trading and Sale of Alcohol) Amendment Bill (Cameron Luxton) Consumer Guarantees (Right to Repair) Amendment Bill (Marama Davidson) The ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • At last some science
    Ele Ludemann writes – Is getting rid of plastic really good for the environment? Substituting plastics with alternative materials is likely to result in increased GHG emissions, according to research from the University of Sheffield. The study by Dr. Fanran Meng from Sheffield’s Department of Chemical and Biological Engineering, ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    3 days ago
  • Something important: the curious death of the School Strike 4 Climate Movement
      The Christchurch Mosque Massacres, Covid-19, deep political disillusionment, and the jealous cruelty of the intersectionists: all had a part to play in causing School Strike 4 Climate’s bright bubble of hope and passion to burst. But, while it floated above us, it was something that mattered. Something Important.   ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    3 days ago
  • The day the TV media died…
    Peter Dunne writes –  April 10 is a dramatic day in New Zealand’s history. On April 10, 1919, the preliminary results of a referendum showed that New Zealanders had narrowly voted for prohibition by a majority of around 13,000 votes. However, when the votes of soldiers still overseas ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    3 days ago
  • What's the point in Melissa Lee?
    While making coffee this morning I listened to Paddy Gower from Newshub being interviewed on RNZ. It was painful listening. His hurt and love for that organisation, its closure confirmed yesterday, quite evident.As we do when something really matters, he hasn’t giving up hope. Paddy talked about the taonga that ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    3 days ago
  • Bernard's Top 10 'pick 'n' mix' at 10:10 am on Thursday, April 11
    TL;DR: Here’s the 10 news and other links elsewhere that stood out for me over the last day, as at 10:10 am on Wednesday, April 10:Photo by Iva Rajović on UnsplashMust-read: As more than half of the nation’s investigative journalists are sacked, Newsroom’s Tim Murphy shows what it takes to ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell On Winston Peters’ Pathetic Speech At The UN
    Good grief, Winston Peters. Tens of thousands of Gazans have been slaughtered, two million are on the brink of starvation and what does our Foreign Minister choose to talk about at the UN? The 75 year old issue of whether the five permanent members should continue to have veto powers ...
    3 days ago
  • Subsidising illegal parking
    Hopefully finally over his obsession with raised crossings, the Herald’s Bernard Orsman has found something to actually be outraged at. Auckland ratepayers are subsidising the cost of towing, storing and releasing cars across the city to the tune of $15 million over five years. Under a quirk in the law, ...
    3 days ago
  • When 'going for growth' actually means saying no to new social homes
    TL;DR: These six things stood out to me over the last day in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy, as of 7:06 am on Thursday, April 11:The Government has refused a community housing provider’s plea for funding to help build 42 apartments in Hamilton because it said a $100 million fund was used ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago
  • https://www.politik.co.nz/?p=12733
    As the public sector redundancies rolled on, with the Department of Conservation saying yesterday it was cutting 130 positions, a Select Committee got an insight into the complexities and challenges of cutting the Government’s workforce. Immigration New Zealand chiefs along with their Minister, Erica Stanford, appeared before Parliament’s Education and ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    3 days ago
  • Bernard's six-stack of substacks at 6:06 pm on Wednesday, April 10
    TL;DR: Six substacks that stood out to me in the last day:Explaining is winning for journalists wanting to regain trust, writes is his excellent substack. from highlights Aotearoa-NZ’s greenwashing problem in this weekly substack. writes about salt via his substack titled: The Second Soul, Part I ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago
  • EGU2024 – Picking and chosing sessions to attend virtually
    This year's General Assembly of the European Geosciences Union (EGU) will take place as a fully hybrid conference in both Vienna and online from April 15 to 19. I decided to join the event virtually this year for the full week and I've already picked several sessions I plan to ...
    3 days ago
  • But here's my point about the large irony in what Luxon is saying
    Grim old week in the media business, eh? And it’s only Wednesday, to rework an old upbeat line of poor old Neil Roberts.One of the larger dark ironies of it all has been the line the Prime Minister is serving up to anyone asking him about the sorry state of ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    3 days ago
  • Govt gives farmers something to talk about (regarding environmental issues) at those woolshed meetin...
    Buzz from the Beehive Hard on the heels of three rurally oriented ministers launching the first of their woolshed meetings, the government brought good news to farmers on the environmental front. First, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced an additional $18 million is being committed to reduce agricultural emissions. Not all ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    3 days ago
  • Climate change violates human rights
    That's the ruling of the European Court of Human Rights today: Weak government climate policies violate fundamental human rights, the European court of human rights has ruled. In a landmark decision on one of three major climate cases, the first such rulings by an international court, the ECHR raised ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Which govt departments have grown the most?
    David Farrar writes –  There has been a 34% increase over six years in the size of the public service, in terms of EFTS. But not all agencies have grown by the same proportion. Here are the 10 with the largest relative increases between 2017 and ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    3 days ago
  • What’s to blame for the public’s plummeting trust in the media?
    Bryce Edwards writes  –  The media is in crisis, as New Zealand audiences flee from traditional sources of news and information. The latest survey results on the public’s attitude to the media shows plummeting trust. And New Zealand now leads the world in terms of those who want ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    3 days ago
  • Something Important: The Curious Death of the School Strike 4 Climate Movement.
    The Hope That Failed: The Christchurch Mosque Massacres, Covid-19, deep political disillusionment, and the jealous cruelty of the intersectionists: all had a part to play in causing School Strike 4 Climate’s bright bubble of hope and passion to burst. But, while it floated above us, it was something that mattered. Something ...
    4 days ago
  • Cow Farts and Cancer Sticks.
    What do you do if you’re a new government minister and the science is in. All of the evidence and facts are clear, but they’re not to your liking? They’re inconsistent with your policy positions and/or your spending priorities.Well, first off you could just stand back and watch as the ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    4 days ago
  • Member’s Day
    Today is a Member's day. First up is James Shaw's New Zealand Bill of Rights (Right to Sustainable Environment) Amendment Bill, which does exactly what it says on the label. Despite solid backing in international law and from lawyers and NGOs, National will likely vote it down out of pure ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Bernard's Top 10 'pick 'n' mix' at 10:10 am on Wednesday, April 10
    Luxon in 2021 as a new MP, before his rise to PM and subsequent plummeting popularity. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Here’s the 10 things that stood out for me from me reading over the last day, as at 10:10 am on Wednesday, April 10:Must read: Tova O’Brien describes ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • What’s happening with Airport to Botany
    One of the few public transport projects the current government have said they support is the Airport to Botany project (A2B) and it’s one we haven’t covered in a while so worth looking at where things are at. A business case for the project was completed in 2021 before being ...
    4 days ago
  • Bishop more popular than Luxon in Curia poll
    Count the Chrises: Chris Bishop (2nd from right) is moving up in the popularity polls. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: These six things stood out to me over the last day in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy, as of 7:06 am on Wednesday, April 10:The National/ACT/NZ First coalition Government’s opinion poll ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • Silmarillion Fan Poetry: A Collection (2022-2024)
    It’s been some time since I properly exercised my poetic muscles. Prose-writing has been where it’s at for me, these past few years. Well, to get back into practice, I thought I’d write the occasional bit of jocular fan poetry, based off Tolkien’s Silmarillion… with this post being a collection ...
    4 days ago
  • At a glance – The Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) is not causing global warming
    On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
    4 days ago
  • Bryce Edwards: What’s to blame for the public’s plummeting trust in the media?
    The media is in crisis, as New Zealand audiences flee from traditional sources of news and information. The latest survey results on the public’s attitude to the media shows plummeting trust. And New Zealand now leads the world in terms of those who want to “avoid the news”. But who ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    4 days ago
  • Dead on target
    My targets for today are: 1 newsletter sent out by 4.30pm 800 words of copy delivered to a client by COB, as we say in the world of BAU1 dinner served by sunset GST returnSo far so good. Longer-term targets are: Get some website copy finished before I get on a plane on Saturday ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    4 days ago
  • The PM sets nine policy targets- and in case you missed the truancy one, Seymour has provided some...
    Buzz from the Beehive Targets and travel were a theme in the latest flow of ministerial announcements. The PM announced a raft of targets (“nine ambitious Government Targets to help improve the lives of New Zealanders”) along with plans to head for Singapore, Thailand, and Philippines. His Deputy and Foreign ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    4 days ago
  • Climate Change: Unwelcome advice
    Yesterday He Pou a Rangi Climate Change Commission released two key pieces of advice, on the 2036-40 emissions budget and the 2050 target. Both are statutorily required as part of the Zero Carbon Act budgeting / planning process, and both have a round of public consultation before being finalised and ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • In a structural deficit, the only real tax cut is a spending cut
    Eric Crampton writes –  This week’s column in the Stuff papers. A snippet: Tabarrok warned that America had two political parties – “the Tax and Spenders and the No-Tax and Spenders” – and neither was fiscally conservative. In the two decades after Tabarrok’s warning, the federal government ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • A Return to Kindness?
    New Zealanders are a pretty fair minded bunch. By and large we like to give people a go.Ian Foster, for example, had a terrible record as a head rugby coach. Like not even good, and did we let that bother us? Yeah, but also Nah. Because we went ahead and ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago
  • Aukus or not, New Zealand’s foreign policy is being remade
    Geoffrey Miller writes –  This could be a watershed week for New Zealand’s international relations. Winston Peters, the foreign minister, is heading to Washington DC for a full week of meetings. The surprisingly lengthy trip just happens to coincide with a major trilateral summit of leaders from the United States, ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • Back to the future, with a 2032 deadline
    Aiming to look visionary and focused, Luxon has announced nine targets to improve measures for education, health, crime and climate emissions - but the reality is only one target is well above pre-Covid levels. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The six news items of note for me in Aotearoa-NZ’s ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Why Rod Carr is optimistic farmers can beat climate change
    The future of farming went on the line yesterday when the Climate Change Commission presented its first review of New Zealand’s target of net zero emissions by 2050. The Commission said New Zealand’s target was unlikely to be consistent with the 2015 Paris Agreement goal of holding temperature rise to ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    5 days ago
  • Grifters, Bigots & Booling With the Dawgs
    Hi,I hope you had a good weekend. I was mostly in bed with the worst flu of my life.Today I’m emerging on the other side — and looking forward to what I can catch of the total solar eclipse rippling across parts of America today.Whilst hacking through a cough, I’ve ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    5 days ago
  • Goldsmith spots a cost-saver in his Justice domain – let’s further erode our right (under Magna ...
    Bob Edlin writes – Chapter 39 of the Magna Carta (from memory) includes the guarantee that no free man may suffer punishment without “the lawful judgment of his peers.” This was a measure which the barons forced on England’s King John to delegate part of his judicial authority ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    5 days ago
  • Climate Adam: Is Global Warming Speeding Up?
    This video includes conclusions of the creator climate scientist Dr. Adam Levy. It is presented to our readers as an informed perspective. Please see video description for references (if any). Thanks to climate change, 2023 has shattered heat records, and 2024 is continuing where last year left off. With this devastating ...
    5 days ago
  • Brooke is on the TV, being a Minister!
    Brooke is on the TV, being a Minister! She is going to talk to Jack on the TV!It's hard to watch Jack on the TV without thinking to yourself:How can anyone be that good-looking,and also be even brainier than they are good-looking?Talk about lucky!But also, Jack works for the TV news. So ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    5 days ago
  • There’s gold – or rather, energy without carbon – in that rock, but Jones reminds us of the Tr...
    Buzz from the Beehive Oh, dear.  One News tells us an ownership spat is brewing between Māori and the Crown as New Zealand uses more renewable energy sources. No, not water or the shoreline.  Ownership of another resource has come into the reckoning. The One News report explained that 99% of ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    5 days ago
  • Climate Change: Bad faith from National
    One of the weird features of the Zero Carbon Act was its split-gas targets, which separated methane, produced overwhelmingly by farmers, from carbon dioxide produced by the rest of us. This lower target for methane was another effective subsidy to the dairy industry, and was the result of a compromise ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell on Israel’s murderous use of AI in Gaza
    This may seem like a dumb question– but how come Israel has managed to kill at least 33,000 Palestinian civilians in Gaza, including over 13,000 children? Of course, saturation aerial bombing and artillery shelling of densely populated civilian neighbourhoods will do that. So will the targeting of children by IDF ...
    Gordon CampbellBy ScoopEditor
    5 days ago
  • Total Eclipse of the Mind.
    All that you touch And all that you seeAll that you taste All you feelAnd all that you love And all that you hateAll you distrust All you saveEarly tomorrow morning as the sun is rising in Aotearoa many people across North America, from Mexico to Canada, will be losing ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago
  • So why do that degree… here?
    A report – and discussion – from the university front line… Mike Grimshaw writes – I have been involved in numerous curriculum and degree reviews over the decades and in all of them the question always skirted around is: “If you had to leave now with ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • The hunt is on for an asterix for farm emissions
    The Government is setting up its own experts group to review the goalposts for farmers to reduce methane emissions. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The six news items of note for me in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy as of 9:06 am on Monday, April 8 are:The Government is setting up ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • Geoffrey Miller: Aukus or not, New Zealand’s foreign policy is being remade
    This could be a watershed week for New Zealand’s international relations. Winston Peters, the foreign minister, is heading to Washington DC for a full week of meetings. The surprisingly lengthy trip just happens to coincide with a major trilateral summit of leaders from the United States, Japan and the Philippines. ...
    Democracy ProjectBy Geoffrey Miller
    6 days ago
  • The Kaka’s diary for the week to April 15 and beyond
    TL;DR: The six key events to watch in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy in the week to April 15 include:PM Christopher Luxon is scheduled to hold a post-Cabinet news conference at 4 pm today. The Climate Commission will publish advice to the Government this evening.Parliament is sitting from Question Time at 2pm ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • 2024 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #14
    A listing of 34 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, March 31, 2024 thru Sat, April 6, 2024. Story of the week Proxy measurement via Facebook "engagement" suggests a widely welcoming audience for Prof. Andrew Dessler's The Climate ...
    6 days ago
  • Their Money or Your Life.
    Brooke van Velden appeared this morning on Q&A, presumably paying homage to Margaret Thatcher. The robotic one had come in an 80s pink, shoulder-padded jacket, much favoured by the likes of Thatcher or Hosking. She also brought the spirit of Margaret, seemingly occupying her previously vacant soul compartment.Jack asked for ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    6 days ago
  • Truth pulls its boots on
    It's a lot easier to pull off a lie if people don't know much about what you're lying about.Sometimes, watching Christopher Luxon, you get the impression he doesn't know all that much about it, either.​​ That's the charitable interpretation. The other is that he knows full well.He was on the ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    7 days ago

  • Huge interest in Government’s infrastructure plans
    Hundreds of people in little over a week have turned out in Northland to hear Regional Development Minister Shane Jones speak about plans for boosting the regional economy through infrastructure. About 200 people from the infrastructure and associated sectors attended an event headlined by Mr Jones in Whangarei today. Last ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Health Minister thanks outgoing Health New Zealand Chair
    Health Minister Dr Shane Reti has today thanked outgoing Health New Zealand – Te Whatu Ora Chair Dame Karen Poutasi for her service on the Board.   “Dame Karen tendered her resignation as Chair and as a member of the Board today,” says Dr Reti.  “I have asked her to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Roads of National Significance planning underway
    The NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) has signalled their proposed delivery approach for the Government’s 15 Roads of National Significance (RoNS), with the release of the State Highway Investment Proposal (SHIP) today, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “Boosting economic growth and productivity is a key part of the Government’s plan to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Navigating an unstable global environment
    New Zealand is renewing its connections with a world facing urgent challenges by pursuing an active, energetic foreign policy, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.   “Our country faces the most unstable global environment in decades,” Mr Peters says at the conclusion of two weeks of engagements in Egypt, Europe and the United States.    “We cannot afford to sit back in splendid ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • NZ welcomes Australian Governor-General
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has announced the Australian Governor-General, His Excellency General The Honourable David Hurley and his wife Her Excellency Mrs Linda Hurley, will make a State visit to New Zealand from Tuesday 16 April to Thursday 18 April. The visit reciprocates the State visit of former Governor-General Dame Patsy Reddy ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Pseudoephedrine back on shelves for Winter
    Associate Health Minister David Seymour has announced that Medsafe has approved 11 cold and flu medicines containing pseudoephedrine. Pharmaceutical suppliers have indicated they may be able to supply the first products in June. “This is much earlier than the original expectation of medicines being available by 2025. The Government recognised ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • NZ and the US: an ever closer partnership
    New Zealand and the United States have recommitted to their strategic partnership in Washington DC today, pledging to work ever more closely together in support of shared values and interests, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.    “The strategic environment that New Zealand and the United States face is considerably more ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Joint US and NZ declaration
    April 11, 2024 Joint Declaration by United States Secretary of State the Honorable Antony J. Blinken and New Zealand Minister of Foreign Affairs the Right Honourable Winston Peters We met today in Washington, D.C. to recommit to the historic partnership between our two countries and the principles that underpin it—rule ...
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    2 days ago
  • NZ and US to undertake further practical Pacific cooperation
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced further New Zealand cooperation with the United States in the Pacific Islands region through $16.4 million in funding for initiatives in digital connectivity and oceans and fisheries research.   “New Zealand can achieve more in the Pacific if we work together more urgently and ...
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    2 days ago
  • Government redress for Te Korowai o Wainuiārua
    The Government is continuing the bipartisan effort to restore its relationship with iwi as the Te Korowai o Wainuiārua Claims Settlement Bill passed its first reading in Parliament today, says Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith. “Historical grievances of Te Korowai o Wainuiārua relate to 19th century warfare, land purchased or taken ...
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    2 days ago
  • Focus on outstanding minerals permit applications
    New Zealand Petroleum and Minerals is working to resolve almost 150 outstanding minerals permit applications by the end of the financial year, enabling valuable mining activity and signalling to the sector that New Zealand is open for business, Resources Minister Shane Jones says.  “While there are no set timeframes for ...
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    2 days ago
  • Applications open for NZ-Ireland Research Call
    The New Zealand and Irish governments have today announced that applications for the 2024 New Zealand-Ireland Joint Research Call on Agriculture and Climate Change are now open. This is the third research call in the three-year Joint Research Initiative pilot launched in 2022 by the Ministry for Primary Industries and Ireland’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Tenancy rules changes to improve rental market
    The coalition Government has today announced changes to the Residential Tenancies Act to encourage landlords back to the rental property market, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “The previous Government waged a war on landlords. Many landlords told us this caused them to exit the rental market altogether. It caused worse ...
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    3 days ago
  • Boosting NZ’s trade and agricultural relationship with China
    Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay will visit China next week, to strengthen relationships, support Kiwi exporters and promote New Zealand businesses on the world stage. “China is one of New Zealand’s most significant trade and economic relationships and remains an important destination for New Zealand’s products, accounting for nearly 22 per cent of our good and ...
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    3 days ago
  • Freshwater farm plan systems to be improved
    The coalition Government intends to improve freshwater farm plans so that they are more cost-effective and practical for farmers, Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay have announced. “A fit-for-purpose freshwater farm plan system will enable farmers and growers to find the right solutions for their farm ...
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    4 days ago
  • New Fast Track Projects advisory group named
    The coalition Government has today announced the expert advisory group who will provide independent recommendations to Ministers on projects to be included in the Fast Track Approvals Bill, say RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Regional Development Minister Shane Jones. “Our Fast Track Approval process will make it easier and ...
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    4 days ago
  • Pacific and Gaza focus of UN talks
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters says his official talks with the United Nations Secretary-General Antonio Guterres in New York today focused on a shared commitment to partnering with the Pacific Islands region and a common concern about the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza.    “Small states in the Pacific rely on collective ...
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    4 days ago
  • Government honours Taranaki Maunga deal
    The Government is honouring commitments made to Taranaki iwi with the Te Pire Whakatupua mō Te Kāhui Tupua/Taranaki Maunga Collective Redress Bill passing its first reading Parliament today, Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “This Bill addresses the commitment the Crown made to the eight iwi of Taranaki to negotiate ...
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    4 days ago
  • Enhanced partnership to reduce agricultural emissions
    The Government and four further companies are together committing an additional $18 million towards AgriZeroNZ to boost New Zealand’s efforts to reduce agricultural emissions. Agriculture Minister Todd McClay says the strength of the New Zealand economy relies on us getting effective and affordable emission reduction solutions for New Zealand. “The ...
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    4 days ago
  • 110km/h limit proposed for Kāpiti Expressway
    Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed news the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) will begin consultation this month on raising speed limits for the Kāpiti Expressway to 110km/h. “Boosting economic growth and productivity is a key part of the Government’s plan to rebuild the economy and this proposal supports that outcome ...
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    4 days ago
  • New Zealand Biosecurity Awards – Winners announced
    Two New Zealanders who’ve used their unique skills to help fight the exotic caulerpa seaweed are this year’s Biosecurity Awards Supreme Winners, says Biosecurity Minister Andrew Hoggard. “Strong biosecurity is vital and underpins the whole New Zealand economy and our native flora and fauna. These awards celebrate all those in ...
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    5 days ago
  • Attendance action plan to lift student attendance rates
    The Government is taking action to address the truancy crisis and raise attendance by delivering the attendance action plan, Associate Education Minister David Seymour announced today.   New Zealand attendance rates are low by national and international standards. Regular attendance, defined as being in school over 90 per cent of the ...
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    5 days ago
  • World must act to halt Gaza catastrophe – Peters
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has told the United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) in New York today that an immediate ceasefire is needed in Gaza to halt the ongoing humanitarian catastrophe.    “Palestinian civilians continue to bear the brunt of Israel’s military actions,” Mr Peters said in his speech to a ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Speech to United Nations General Assembly: 66th plenary meeting, 78th session
    Mr President,   The situation in Gaza is an utter catastrophe.   New Zealand condemns Hamas for its heinous terrorist attacks on 7 October and since, including its barbaric violations of women and children. All of us here must demand that Hamas release all remaining hostages immediately.   At the ...
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    5 days ago
  • Government woolshed roadshow kicks off
    Today the Government Agriculture Ministers started their national woolshed roadshow, kicking off in the Wairarapa. Agriculture Minister Todd McClay said it has been a tough time for farmers over the past few years. The sector has faced high domestic inflation rates, high interest rates, adverse weather events, and increasing farm ...
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    5 days ago
  • PM heads to Singapore, Thailand, and Philippines
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon will travel to Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines this week (April 14-20), along with a senior business delegation, signalling the Government’s commitment to deepen New Zealand’s international engagement, especially our relationships in South East Asia. “South East Asia is a region that is more crucial than ever to ...
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    5 days ago
  • Prime Minister launches Government Targets
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has announced further steps to get New Zealand back on track, launching nine ambitious Government Targets to help improve the lives of New Zealanders. “Our Government has a plan that is focused on three key promises we made to New Zealanders – to rebuild the economy, ...
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    5 days ago
  • Natural hydrogen resource should be free of Treaty claims entanglement
    Natural hydrogen could be a game-changing new source of energy for New Zealand but it is essential it is treated as a critical development that benefits all New Zealanders, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones is seeking to give regulatory certainty for those keen to develop natural, or geological, ...
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    6 days ago
  • Government responds to unsustainable net migration
    ...
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    7 days ago
  • New Zealand on stage at global Space Symposium
    Space Minister Judith Collins will speak at the Space Symposium in the United States next week, promoting New Zealand’s rapidly growing place in the sector as we work to rebuild the economy. “As one of the largest global space events, attended by more than 10,000 business and government representatives from ...
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    7 days ago
  • $4.9m project completed with marae reopening
    A significant marae has reopened in the heart of Rotorua marking the end of renovations for the Ruatāhuna Marae Renovation Cluster, a project that provided much-needed jobs and regional economic stimulus, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones was at the official reopening of Mātaatua ki Rotorua Marae today. ...
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    1 week ago
  • Pure Tūroa Limited to operate Tūroa ski field
    Ko Tahuarangi te waka – Tahuarangi is the ancestral vessel Ko Rangitukutuku te aho – Rangitukutuku is the fishing line Ko Pikimairawea te matau – Pikimairawea is the hook Ko Hāhā te Whenua te ika kei rō-wai – Hāhā te whenua is the fish (of Māui) whilst under the ocean ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Methane targets to be independently reviewed
    Rebuilding New Zealand’s economy will rely on the valuable agricultural sector working sustainably towards our climate change goals.  Today, the Climate Change and Agriculture Ministers announced that an independent panel of experts will review agricultural biogenic methane science and targets for consistency with no additional warming. Agriculture Minister Todd McClay ...
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    1 week ago
  • NZ and Nordics: likeminded partners
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has highlighted the strong ties that bind New Zealand and the Nordic countries of Northern Europe during a trip to Sweden today.    “There are few countries in the world more likeminded with New Zealand than our friends in Northern Europe,” Mr Peters says.    “We ...
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    1 week ago
  • First New Zealand C-130J Hercules takes flight
    The first New Zealand C-130J Hercules to come off the production line in the United States has successfully completed its first test flights, Defence Minister Judith Collins announced today. “These successful flights are a significant milestone for the New Zealand Defence Force, bringing this once-in-a-generation renewal of a critical airlift ...
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    1 week ago
  • Government to rephase NCEA Change Programme
      The coalition Government is making significant changes to the NCEA Change Programme, delaying the implementation by two years, Minister of Education Erica Stanford announced today. “Ensuring New Zealand’s curriculum is world leading is a vital part of the Government’s plan to deliver better public services and ensure all students ...
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    1 week ago
  • New Ngāpuhi investment fund Chair appointed
    Ben Dalton has been appointed the new board Chair of Tupu Tonu, the Ngāpuhi Investment Fund, says Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith and Associate Finance Minister Shane Jones. “Ben brings a wealth of experience in governance and economic development to the position. He will have a strong focus on ensuring ...
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    1 week ago
  • Education should be prioritised ahead of protesting
    Students should be in school and learning instead of protesting during school hours, Associate Education Minister David Seymour says. “If students feel strongly about sending a message, they could have marched on Tuesday when there was a nationwide teacher only day, or during the upcoming school holidays. It has become ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Delivering on Local Water Done Well
    Cabinet has agreed on key steps to implement Local Water Done Well, the Coalition Government’s plan for financially sustainable locally delivered water infrastructure and services, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown says.  "Councils and voters resoundingly rejected Labour’s expensive and bureaucratic Three Waters regime, and earlier this year the Coalition Government ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Peters to visit New York, Washington D.C.
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters will engage with high-level United States Government and United Nations officials in the United States next week (6-12 April).    The visit, with programmes in New York and Washington D.C., will focus on major global and regional security challenges and includes meetings with US Secretary of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

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