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Five Eyes Joins Morning Report

Written By: - Date published: 7:21 pm, March 25th, 2022 - 65 comments
Categories: making shit up, Peace, Propaganda, Russia, spin, uk politics, Ukraine, us politics, war - Tags:

Morning Report today interviewed ex MI6 chemical weapons false flag specialist Hamish de Bretton-Gordon saying because Russia has lost in Ukraine it will likely resort using to chemical weapons. FiveEyes hawks want NATO to intervene, so we get World War 3, Hurrah!

This follows warnings from Stoltenberg and Biden yesterday that serious consequences will eventuate if Russia resorts to chemical weapons. De Bretton-Gordon spoke from Salisbury, close to Porton Down, and referenced his playbook of previous false flags on novichok and Syria.

Kit Klarenberg at the Grayzone provides the background on de Bretton-Gordon and details the strategy:

With Washington and its NATO allies forced to watch from the sidelines as Russia’s military advances across Eastern Ukraine and encircles Kiev, US and British officials have resorted to a troubling tactic that could trigger a massive escalation. Following similar claims by his Secretary of State and ambassador the United Nations, US President Joseph Biden has declared that Russia will pay a “severe price” if it uses chemical weapons in Ukraine.

Russia using chemical weapons makes absolutely no sense, not that that has ever deterred the ‘intelligence’ services. It is progressing its “special operation” according to its stated objectives of demilitarising and ne-nazifying Ukraine. The Ukrainian army has been effectively surrounded in the east, and the neo-Nazi stronghold of Mariupol captured. It was never a war of conquest.

There are signs that the realities on the ground and the nature of the tactics are starting to be recognised in the western media. They appear also to come from a split in the strategic advice flow in Washington. Military sources do not want to expand the war, but pressure is coming from the neocon clique in the White House, supported by chickenhawk politicians and the media, all on their high horse and clamouring for action. There is  no evidence of use of chemical weapons.

It is high time more sensible voices in the West started to call for an end to the hostilities and a negotiated outcome rather than further and catastrophic war.

As for de Bretton-Gordon, he was very proud of his advice for Ukrainians on how to deal with a chlorine attack – head for high ground – in Ukraine? – wear a face mask, and piss on it!

I don’t think I really needed to know that with my morning coffee.

65 comments on “Five Eyes Joins Morning Report ”

  1. Martin C 1

    Give any one species too much rope and they'll f___k it up.

  2. Subliminal 2

    Yes. Heard that this morning too. Just as in Syria the call goes out. If you want us to intervene we need a truely horrendous motivation. We were lucky with Syria to have still functioning international bodies that were able to keep politics out and investigate professionally. This allowed the world to see the lie being perpetrated by the west. Unfortunately, the OPCW is now completely split and dysfunctional. Added to this is the death of the fearless Robert Fisk and it is unlikely that any even half serious investigation will be made in the event of the use of chemical weapons.

    But as you say above Mike, the state of the Russian operation in Ukraine is such that only the truly propagandized could see any value in such an absurd tactic by Russia.

    An article yesterday on the Indian Punchline site paints a clear picture of why the west has become desperate enough to be demanding the Ukraine military to carry out such an operation. India has a lot of experience with trade with Russia in roubles and is looking at Mumbai becoming a financial centre of sorts to facillitate trade with Russia. India was pretty much left to fend for itself through covd but now realises that the same old colonial demands are being attempted now the west needs support. They are being asked to pay the higher energy, fertiliser, food costs that sanctions will entail like good little lapdogs. It appears they will not. Also Africa is almost totally dependent on Russian wheat. They recieve this wheat at a discount, because that is how Russia treats poorer countries, and they will require help from India to work out payments.

    Not only that. It appears that the realisation in India of what the Ukraine conflict is and how it is to be used by the US has sparked a burying of the hatchet between India and China. So the US now faces the possibility of a unified Russia/China/India. Not only have they lost on the battlefield but the US has seriously wrecked their standing in all developing nations.

    Against this backdrop we get the crescendo "if you use chemical weapons… " I have said elsewhere that for Nato, either the game is up or they go all in. Looks like here is the attempt to go all in.

  3. Anne 3

    I give you credit Mike for standing up against what is euphemistically termed the establishment line. It take guts and sometimes has unpleasant personal consequences. If time proves you to have been correct about the use of chemical weapons, I will be the first to congratulate you. In the meantime, I prefer to sit on the fence.

    To be honest, I don't trust either side.

    • Mike Smith 3.1

      @Anne 3

      Fair enough for suspending judgment and nothing has happened as yet. But when the media, prompted by FiveEyes in my opinion, start raising the crazy idea that Russia wants to use chlorine because they are losing, we need to do our best to call it out as bullshit and head it off.

      It is the neocons in Biden's 'Tiger team' that want a wider war and would create an incident. False flags are so because they are a case of pure propaganda by projection, in this case on the part of FiveEyes. Their purpose is to gull people into supporting further wars.

      I've written about them before here on the Skripals and no surprise the that Hamish de Bretton-Gordon appears there as well. https://thestandard.org.nz/russian-to-judgment/

      The worlds deadliest poison but all we know is that the Russians didn't kill them but the British have disappeared them. It's an old playbook. But the consequences this time will not be the sacking of a few diplomats, but much wider war and possibly even nuclear war.

      I think it is worth getting off the fence to try to stop that and I am sure you would agree. I don't want to be proven right, I just want to stop the crazies including those in our media who are being used to ramp up danger, wittingly or unwittingly, I don't know.

  4. Stuart Munro 4

    FiveEyes hawks want NATO to intervene, so we get World War 3, Hurrah!

    One might just as readily say "Putin Dupes want Nato to roll over, so that Russia can win a war it is losing badly on the ground."

    I guess you never had much to do with working people under Soviet repression. No-one with any idea of what the eastern bloc suffered would wish it on their worst enemy.

    • weston 4.1

      If you had to stuart could you list anything " good " about Russia at least since Putins been in power ?

      • Stuart Munro 4.1.1

        Not that are a result of his actions.

        You can see now playing out in Russia and Ukraine the ends towards which his policies were always directed – an authoritarian state that disenfranchises, impoverishes, and represses its people, and sends them to die oppressing and impoverishing other states. Nothing to write home about.

    • Adrian Thornton 4.2

      @ Stuart Munro….You still haven't posted links to back up and verify your comments on this subject from this thread…so I will restate my response to your lack of evidence to support your allegations back then….."so in other words, you must think everyone should just believe everything you say…because…well, you said it?…it doesn't work like that pal…put up, or shut up"

      • Stuart Munro 4.2.1

        Though I know that you are truly desperate that I should cease highlighting your comprehensive and frankly appalling ignorance, It's not as if you ever have any links of your own, that once scraped, prove to be anything better RT. I am too busy at the moment to drum that tiny modicum of sense into your insensate skull that it might hold were it not completely closed. You have a moral responsibility of self improvement – this is your chance – abandon the swinish ignorance in which you wallow to the detriment of debate on this site, engage with some actual people in the countries you presume to discuss, and stop wasting everybody's time.

        My comment was directed to Mike, and it is supported by just as many links as his was.

        • Adrian Thornton

          @Stuart Munro…"It's not as if you ever have any links of your own, that once scraped, prove to be anything better RT"….I think you will find my links in response to your allegations in that thread are all quite mainstream.

          As moderators on this site often point out (correctly)..if you cannot back up your allegations and comments on important subjects with creditable links …then refrain from making them.

          • RedLogix

            As someone who moderated here for more than a decade I can advise that exploiting it as a debating gambit is skating on very thin ice indeed.

            • Adrian Thornton

              I am not employing it for that purpose, sorry if that is how it comes across…I was just reminding our friend SM that while on this subject, it would be good if he doesn't muddy the waters with misdirection, half truths..which I find he is prone to do..which is why I was insisting on the appropriate use of links from him..as I try and do myself.

              • Stuart Munro

                You really are not in a position to complain about muddying the waters Adrian, there isn't a bogus Putin backed theory you haven't backed here.

                Linked or not, the persistent habit of untruth is not a public service – in fact it is a reliable way to offend people.

                • Adrian Thornton

                  Please just debate me when you have something to say that isn't just you letting off steam over your slightly unhinged hatred of Putin.

                  'hate comes into being alongside the constitution of the ego; it expresses the ego’s self-preservation instincts, the will to power, and the urge for mastery'…apparently Freud said something like that.

                  • Incognito

                    Since Stuart and you have obviously nothing to say to each other why don’t you give each other a wide berth?

                    • Adrian Thornton

                      Thanks for the advice, I usually do try to, but at times his claims are just so outlandish, he leaves one with no option but to rebut his claims, lest some unwitting citizen might wander past and take them at face value…a situation which I feel just cannot stand.

                    • Incognito []

                      Yes, I know it can be difficult. However, the best way to resist temptation is to avoid it. Simply scroll past Stuart’s comments if they infuriate you so much and don’t read them. As a Moderator I don’t have this luxury (choice) – trust me, at times I wish I had – but you do.

          • Stuart Munro

            I'm pleased to see you trying to do the moderator's job for them Adrian – but let's just leave it to them shall we?

            • Incognito

              Not a bad response. However, if you could provide just one little link, that would help to get Adrian Thornton off your back and make the Moderators’ lives easier too.

              I really don’t want to play referee here, but it seems that you two carry your unfinished business with you from Post to Post here on TS (and elsewhere too?), and at some stage this has to end or it won’t end well.

              • Adrian Thornton

                Thank you.

              • Stuart Munro

                I usually do – I've just been rather busy of late.

                There is the problem though, that not everything is linkable. I was working on a Russian ship in 1991 when the Soviet Union fell, and had worked on others before, it gives me some idea of that culture and degree of oppression. (The crew nearly hanged the commissar.) Similarly, discussing Korea, – if one has seen the old men weeping at Panmunjom or talked with retired government officials of the period, the glib assertions of contemporary media are not especially persuasive. In respect of Russia, it is even more problematic – Putin's regime still kills journalists – I'm not entitled to put them at risk by naming them here.

                • Incognito

                  Yes, I accept that you cannot divulge certain info but I don’t know that Adrian Thornton was fishing for that sort of more personal (anecdotal) stuff anyway. To be honest, I don’t know what he was after and it looked like a bit of kneejerk response. Let’s all move past this.

  5. Adrian Thornton 5

    Here is probably the most balanced and nuanced overall take on the Ukraine crisis I have heard….Aaron Mate' interviews Chas Freeman….I know it's an hour long, but well worth that hour if you are actually serious about getting some sort of understanding the current and historical aspects to this disaster…..
    'Chas Freeman, Veteran U.S. diplomat and public servant who has served in many senior positions, including as Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs, U.S. Ambassador to Saudi Arabia, Director for Chinese Affairs at the U.S. Department of State, and as the principal US interpreter during President Nixon’s historic visit to China in 1972'

  6. weston 6

    Morning report also featured recently Gerry Brownlee claiming Russias statement that they had found bio labs in Ukraine was fake news and we should dismiss the ambasador or somesuch .of couse no presenter said much to counter the idea because i think theyre basicy uninformed .Their only news sources are Cnn and bbc .Even though brownlees in the opposition you would think they'd get some intelligence briefings but i wonder how often anyone gets briefed in fact it would have to be often surely in a rapidly developing situation so maybe he hadnt heard vic nuland in the senate admitting that there ARE bio labs in Ukraine .relevent material comes in at 3.40


    • DB Brown 6.1

      There are bio labs in EVERY science faculty of EVERY university. Pathology labs associated with EVERY hospital. Existence of labs means NOTHING. Show that they were involved in propagating deadly pathogens and the purpose of the research – or this line is to be discarded.

      Here in NZ, where I assume we are not manufacturing WMD's, we have labs out the wazoo. We got labs for water treatment, forestry chemicals, forestry fungi, fungi in general, fungi on food, we got genomics labs, epidemiology labs, forensics labs…

      Jeepers, is NZ planning the next great genocide?

      We should eliminate the garbage we speak as there's far too much of it.

      • Francesca 6.1.2

        Are they funded by the Pentagon?

        • DB Brown

          There's all sorts of funding in NZ labs, I'd go so far as to say yes, there will be US money there somewhere. Corporate or government where’s the defining line in US these days?

          Our government funds a lot of labs too, trying to keep us alive.

          Last meeting I attended had two US scientists teaching us methods of developing entomopathogenic fungi.

          First, we take their insects, next, the world!

          n.b. since that talk a number of local mycologists have successfully grown highly valued medicinal fungi. The horror!

          • Adrian Thornton

            Doesn't it ring even the smallest alarm bell for you that pretty much all Western media has uniformly condemned this whole story as misinformation..yet not one of them are on the ground in the Ukraine at those sites, so how could they possibly know if what Russian is saying is true or not?…I would be interested in your answer.

            • DB Brown

              I'm not interested in the lockstep opinions of US and assorted lackey journalists, nor the anti-imperialistic dogmatic dirge-song of the disenfranchised.

              This is not a video game.

              When the nazi story grew thin out came the secret labs story. It's very Q-adjacent in tone and lack of evidence.

              Some might say they’re crying wolf to cover their own sins. But what is hearsay but nonsense in disguise.

              • Adrian Thornton

                "This is not a video game" agreed, "When the nazi story grew thin" ……growing thin you say?

                The BBC, Vox, Washington Post..etc, etc..have all, over that past five years, have run multiple indepth stories (I am not going to link to them again, I have already done that several times on this site) on the rise of the Extreme Far Right within the Ukraine, so we can all agree that the Ukraine had and still has some sort of Far Right problem right?..now these same mindless fucking idiots encourage the arming of these same organizations, without engaging even the slightest mid let alone long term analysis of what arming those known extremists will mean post war ..now ask yourself this one question…when was the last time the US openly armed to the teeth an Extremist group in a war against Russia (and lets not muddy the waters with Syria).. the Mujahideen in Afghanistan..and we all know exactly where that led too…we are still feeling the ramifications of that disastrous decision today.

                These are the sort of organizations who are going to left after this is over with thousands of the most sophisticated modern shoulder fired A/A and A/T weapons available…doesn't that concern you even a little?

                • DB Brown

                  We're all aware of the presence of far right dickheads in many many places.

                  I'm not a fan of US and never was, doesn't mean I have to swallow your version of events either.

                  Mountains from molehills. Boogeymen!

                  • Adrian Thornton

                    What part of my previous statement would you consider to be "your version of events"? therefore implied by you to be, not truthful or misleading…

                    Some of your molehills have proved to be not quite as benign they seem…

                    NZ to talk to Ukraine after accused mosque shooter's manifesto sold
                    'New Zealand will raise its concerns directly with Ukrainian authorities after it was revealed that printed copies of the manifesto penned by the accused Christchurch gunman are being sold online.
                    The document has been republished as a paperback and is being sold through an online messaging app channel run by a neo-Nazi in Ukraine.'

                    • DB Brown

                      You just keep regurgitating the same materials as if they change anything and as if nobody else can read. We've heard it, ad nauseum.

                      Tarrant went to Ukraine, was inspired by some muppets he met there, therefore Ukraine = BAD.

                      Got it.

                      But also, he went to a number of countries for 'inspiration' (to try justify his lunatic diatribe). Are they also = BAD. Nazis?

                    • RedLogix

                      From memory he spent a lot of time in France, Turkey and Pakistan. There is no public domain evidence describing exactly the train of events leading to his radicalisation. Selectively picking on Ukraine is a desperately feeble gambit.

                      Incidentally his manifesto is only illegal in NZ. I read it a while back and was struck by the moonbat convergence between far right and far left ideologies clearly spelled out in it.

                  • Adrian Thornton

                    “You just keep regurgitating the same materials as if they change anything and as if nobody else can read”

                    OK, fair enough…then just let me say this then, the reason I replied to this thread was because you stated this ….“There's all sorts of funding in NZ labs I'd go so far as to say yes, there will be US money there somewhere. Corporate or government where’s the defining line in US these days?”

                    “Our government funds a lot of labs too, trying to keep us alive.”

                    “n.b. since that talk a number of local mycologists have successfully grown highly valued medicinal fungi. The horror!”

                    So I assume you are implying that because NZ has US/corporate funded labs, working hard “trying to keep us alive”…that those labs in the Ukraine could well be doing exactly the same thing, so why don’t people like myself just settle down on this Ukraine lab issue….I think that seems to be a fair understanding of the thrust of your comment?

                    However, if these labs could in any way at all be beguine, as you strongly suggest, then maybe you can fill us all in as to why State Department official State Department official Victoria Nuland said in response to the question ‘does Ukraine have biological research facilities?’ … Nuland..”Ukraine has biological research facilities…. which in fact we are now quite concerned Russian troops, Russian forces, may be seeking to gain control of" so, if I follow your logic, the US are concerned that ‘highly valued medicinal fungi’ might fall into Russian control ….The Horror!

          • Francesca

            Goodness, so we're doing gain of function research?

            The reason the US is involved in so many of these labs overseas is because regulation and oversight in the US is strict, not so the eastern european states.

            Obama put a moratorium on gain of function research, Trump lifted it .

            There's a fine line between research for peaceful outcomes, and dual purpose research for military outcomes

            The biolabs in Ukraine really do need to be looked at closely

            • Incognito

              Since everybody seems to have a different ‘definition’ of “gain of function research”, and some are quite narrow or specific, what is yours?

              Do you think all GoF research is necessarily ‘bad’?

              • DB Brown

                Genetic code codes for 3 dimensional proteins. The form of these proteins and the structures they create provide function. So any alteration to genetic code theoretically alters function.

                Genetic technology in the hands of nefarious players could do great harm. In the hands of (well guided) altruistic players could do great good. In the hands of the free market could go either way according to profit margins.

                Yes, some levels of science clearly bear regulation and oversight. Government should be in the loop of highly sensitive materials.

                aside: Who was Trump trying to suck up to dropping the regulations? The private sector should not have such free access to science imo. We've seen what they do with it: 'Green' revolution my ass.

                Unforeseen circumstances and LOADS of hubris.

                The concepts of science, in the hands of laymen, lead to much science fiction.

              • Francesca

                I think its dangerous, which is why Obama put a moratorium on it .It can also cross over from civilian to military purposes, or to fuck up someone's pork stocks, or wheat crop.

                It's very hard to contain lab leaks

                • Francesca

                  Remember the anthrax scare in the US?Powell standing up in the UNSC holding aloft a vial of white powder?

                  Wicked Iraqis had developed weapons of mass destruction it was said.Until it was found (too late of course) that it was the Ames strain, that the US had developed in their own bio labs.But of course one could not say they'd been developing WMD, because only our monstrous enemies do that.

                • Incognito

                  Yeah, is’s fine that you think “its dangerous” [sic], but what is it, i.e. what is GoF research, in your books?

                  • Francesca

                    Incognito, did you not read the example I gave.The anthrax the US had developed in their labs.It was engineered to have increased lethality.The "Ames" strain

                    You could say, we need to find out all the various ways this can mutate so we can develop a treatment .Or we can create something that no antibiotic can counter. That has all the makings of a weapon with plausible deniability .Do you honestly think thats not been considered and even worked on ?
                    Read the other link I replied to Adrian with, it refers to the different strains of pathogens being engineered in the Ukraine biolabs .And why the intense secrecy?
                    Gain of function is increasing the transmissibility and the lethality of a pathogen .You can surely recognise there’s dual purpose there.

                    • Incognito


                      Either you don’t know what “GoF research” is or you don’t want to explain it. In any case, it is meaningless to discuss it if we don’t know what it means to you. I didn’t ask you for a definition of God, only of GoF research, as you use it.

                    • RedLogix


                      GoF research is a bundle of recognised techniques intended to increase the lethality and or transmissiblity of a pathogen. The Obama Administration was convinced by a substantial group of researchers they represented a clear and unjustified risk and imposed a moratorium.

                      It was lifted just 10 days before Trump took office in a very peculiar set of circumstances. Fauci is widely regarded as being up to his neck in it.

                    • Incognito []


                      Which is a narrow and rather vague description without an explained rationale (assuming it is not just for biological warfare), but I can work with this, if necessary. As such, it needs further elaboration, as it still doesn’t justify Francesca’s outburst about the NZ context.

                    • Francesca

                      Incognito, no reply function to your FFS irascibility.

                      Not sure whats eating you .

                      I explained what GOF research is , increasing the transmissibility and lethality of a pathogen , much as Red Logix also explains
                      Where is my NZ outburst ?
                      You are surely not referring to my “goodness , are we doing gain of function research”

                    • Incognito []

                      Sloppy and imprecise language and ‘personal’ but unspecified definitions are a sure recipe for people talking past and misunderstanding each other. That’s bothering me and particularly tonight after a lengthy exchange with an ignoramus.

                      Feel free to elaborate on RL’s partial answer (see my reply here: https://thestandard.org.nz/five-eyes-joins-morning-report/#comment-1878997).

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      Hi Francesca, fwiw the Ames strain of B. anthracis is a natural isolate, so not a product of (artificial) gain-of-function research, imho.

                      The term "gain of function" is sometimes applied more narrowly to refer to "research which could enable a pandemic-potential pathogen to replicate more quickly or cause more harm in humans or other closely-related mammals."

                      Most routine gain-of-function research taking place in 'bio-labs' all over the world has nothing to do with enhancing pathogenicity. I occasionally dabbled in GoF research without intending to enhance pathogenicity, and as far as I know never I did.

                      Otoh, all humans (and many other animals) are incubating natural GoF experiments on a more-or-less continuous basis, but you can't ban host microbiomes – even trying to regulate them is tricky.

                      Altered gut ecosystems plus the microbiota’s potential for rapid evolution: A recipe for inevitable change with unknown consequences [30 Oct. 2021]

                      Numerous experimental designs have been utilized to probe the speed at which bacteria can evolve. As shown in Fig. 1, gain of function via Darwinian evolution can occur within days, and dramatic effects can often be seen within months. For example, Richard Lenski’s lab saw the evolution of metabolism of glucose by Escherichia coli in minimal media within 44 days, and the evolution of the ability to metabolize citrate, a major step forward in evolution, within 12 to 13 years. Our lab saw the evolution of glucose metabolism by laboratory E. coli in the mouse gut within 114 days, and dramatically improved colonization of the mouse gut under those conditions after 2 to 3 years. Rainey and Travisano saw the evolution of biofilm formation of Pseudomonas fluorescens in static culture (structured environments) within only 2 days, and Sommer’s group found the evolution of resistance to antibiotics by E. coli within only 14 days. Bell’s group saw the evolution of resistance to antimicrobial peptides by E. coli and P. fluorescens within 100 days, and Rosch’s group saw improved colonization of nasal cavities in mice by Streptococcus pneumoniae within 30 days. These examples (Fig. 1) represent only a very small fraction of the experiments that have been conducted, but nonetheless demonstrate the ability of microbes to rapidly evolve novel function.

                      Fun fact – Rainey's research lab was NZ-based from 2003 – 2016.

                    • Incognito []

                      Thank you! It’s always a pleasure to read a comment by someone who knows what they’re talking about rather than those who simply copy & pasta stuff from Wikipedia and/or from the first couple of ‘hits’ that show up when they do an open-ended basic search (with Google) without even realising that often those ‘hits’ are influenced by their search history and browsing & clicking patterns in the internet.

        • joe90

          The Nunn Lugar programme is funded by annual appropriations.



          btw, here's a 2017 Ted Talk on US involvement in cleaning up Soviet bio weapon facilities.

      • weston 6.1.3

        Wasnt the mere fact of top level state department officials affirmation of lab existance in Ukraine it was that plus if you watch that clip she looks like someone just handed her a huge dead rat on a plate with a knife an fork and would she like mayo on it ? she looks dodgy as and picks her reply to Rubio very carefully indeed .Why ?she could have said something similar to what you said Plus immediately after the discovery statement by the russians the yanks made a statement to the effect that russia might be about to attempt a false flag attack using chemical weapons !What ?not the chemical weapons that never existed from the labs that werent there that the state department were worried the russians might access surely ?It dont quite add up DB imo

    • Francesca 6.2

      Incidentally, while we’re on it…

      • The Russian government held a press conference Thursday claiming that Hunter Biden helped finance a US military 'bioweapons' research program in Ukraine
      • However the allegations were branded a brazen propaganda ploy to justify president Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine and sow discord in the US
      • But emails and correspondence obtained by DailyMail.com from Hunter's abandoned laptop show the claims may well be true


      “At least one of the documents suggested that “Metabiota’s interest in Ukraine went beyond research and money-making. An executive with the contractor, Mary Guttieri, spoke in an April 2014 memo to Hunter Biden of “how we can potentially leverage our team, networks and concepts to assert Ukraine’s cultural and economic independence from Russia and continued integration into Western society.”

  7. Adrian Thornton 7

    Anyway folks, here is a debate with someone from every side, so we can all get the chance to tut tut at various points, and nod our heads in approval at others …pretty good debate I thought….

  8. SPC 8

    It is progressing its “special operation” according to its stated objectives of demilitarising and ne-nazifying Ukraine. The Ukrainian army has been effectively surrounded in the east, and the neo-Nazi stronghold of Mariupol captured. It was never a war of conquest.

    I'll translate.

    Russia is progressing its illegal invasion of a nation state member of the UN, after using its veto in the UNSC to prevent the UN adhering to its Charter.

    The Kremlin falsely claims that the democratically elected government of Ukraine needs to be "de-Nazified" in some bizarre effort to equate its invasion of another country with the Nazi Reich's invasions into eastern Europe including Poland, Ukraine and Russia.

    Mariupol, in an area between Crimea and Donetsk and Lukhansk (part of what has been called novorussia) has been Groznyed (all except its port which would be used for exports out of east Ukraine). This on the basis it is a "neo-Nazi' stronghold because the the Azov Regiment of the Ukraine national guard is based there. It is however made up of volunteers (4000) from all over Ukraine (many are deployed in the field in the east of Ukraine). Locals are conscripted into the Ukraine army (200,000).

    Kremlin claims that the demilitarisation of a nation is not a war of conquest when it requires elimination (mass murder of soldiers) or conquest to dictate another nation states domestic security policy.

  9. aj 9

    Reading this article I couldn't help but think about the divided opinions as expressed by various contributors to The Standard.

    It's well worth the few minutes reading. And a great song to go with it – perfect.


    What Niebuhr would say about the US reaction to Ukraine

    ….Hofstadter saw the demonization of domestic opponents as foreign-inspired traitors as particularly characteristic of the Republican Party. Recently, however, we have seen that Democrats are equally susceptible to this temptation, from a similar combination of political opportunism and genuine paranoia. For example, both left and right members of the establishment have joined in seeking to demonize and silence those who have called for compromise with Russia over Ukraine.

    ….To recall America’s own acts of aggression and violations of international law is not an exercise in rhetorical “whataboutism.” It is an essential exercise in the sort of basic honesty, humility and self-examination called for by Niebuhr.

    ….America’s 20th century intelligentsia seemed better equipped to teach us about humility and restraint in war, at home and abroad.

  10. weston 10

    Ta aj enjoyed the song and the article odd that that song is just as appropriate now as it was then excellent choice .

  11. aj 11

    Irony detection gene missing

    • Francesca 11.1

      That's extraordinary.

      They won't waste the bombs though if regime change can be effected with large sums of money offered and the best PR black ops outfits money can buy.And that way you can pretend the people have spoken and democracy is all fine and dandy.

      • aom 11.1.1

        Can someone clarify a perception: don't both Russia and China have some form of voting systems. Are they one person – one vote or the sort of perverted democracy they they have in the USA where an Electoral College determines the result on the basis of inequitable state populations. Also it seems some states are able to skew the system by disenfranchising large numbers on prejudicial grounds on inequitable access to voting booths and systems.

        Facts, not recons please.

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