OP: Fluoridation – it does reduce tooth decay
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- Date published:
2:59 pm, June 21st, 2013 - 306 comments
Categories: health, making shit up, public services, science, water -
Tags: fluoridation, public health
Ken Perrott at Open Parachute has been debunking some of the nonsense surrounding the debate on fluoridated water by investigating claims made against fluoridated water. His background is in scientific research, so he tends to actually read the papers cited by others. Unsurprisingly there are some of the weird nonsense interpretations around of papers because many people appear to avoid actually reading the details. This post was published on his site yesterday and has been reposted with permission.
In the current fluoridation debate anti-fluoridation activists will often claim fluoridation of public water supplies actually doesn’t reduce tooth decay. This conflicts directly with the advice of our health authorities – so what is the truth?
The claim
Again I will directly consider the claim of the Fluoridation Action Network of NZ (FAANZ). It’s summarised in the first objection to fluoridation (1. New science proves there is no benefit from swallowing fluoride ):
There are numerous modern studies to show that there is no difference in dental decay rates between fluoridated and non-fluoridated areas. The most recent, large-scale one was conducted in Australia (Armfield & Spencer, 2004 Community Dental Oral Epidemiology. 32:283-96).
When you observe the statistics of the world they clearly show tooth decay has declined in both fluoridated and non-fluoridated areas alike. This is a trend that is demonstrated when viewing the statistics across the States in America and in the smaller counties. See the charts and findings by Dr. Bill Osmunson in the above video by Professional Perspectives.
In New Zealand there have been two recent studies that showed there was no difference in dental decay for permanent teeth. One was the Southland Study in 2005 and the other was the Auckland study in 2008. These, among many other studies, have proven water fluoridation to be ineffective.
(This objection goes on to discuss topical vs ayatemic itnake of F which I won’t discuss here)
But, health authorities in New Zealand disagree – and they have the data to support their case. So how credible is the FANNZ claim?
The citation.
Again, another citation, unlinked, so I had to go to the trouble of hunting it down to read what it actually does say – which turns out to be the exact opposite of FANNZ claim! Same problems I met when I looked at their claim about toxic elements in fluoridating agents (see Fluoridation – are we dumping toxic metals into our water supplies?).
The Australian study investigated concerns about the high use of bottled and rainwater. Several social, economic and dietary factors were considered but the major significant effect was that of fluoride. Children consuming tank and bottled water had much higher carries than those consuming water from fluoridated public water supplies. This was found for deciduous teeth, but not for permanent teeth and the authors speculated on the dietary and other reasons for this.
The authors considered lack of fluoride is an important problem for tank water use saying:
“Efforts could be directed at either reducing the use of tank water for domestic drinking water consumption or further encouraging the appropriate use of fluoride to compensate for the lack of fluoride in the drinking water.”
About bottled water they say:
“consumers currently have little choice in Australia and the imminent introduction of fluoride-containing bottled water does not look likely.”
So:
“It is also time that bottled water manufacturers in Australia began marketing fluoridated water. In the US more than 20 companies produce water with optimum fluoride concentrations.”
They finish their paper with this:
“Bottled water is promoted as a healthy, chemical-free alternative. There is a need for bottled water manufacturers to take a stand on the issue of the benefits of appropriately fluoridated water and provide consumers with choice.”
So another example of FANNZ using a citation inappropriately – to support a claim the exact opposite to the study’s results.
The New Zealand data.
The Ministry of Health (MOH) keeps records on the oral health of New Zealand children – and anyone can download that data from their website. There is data for age 5 and year 8 children over the time period 1990 to 2011. I’ll have a detailed look at the data for 2002 – 2011 (earlier data doesn’t include the ethnic breakdown which is very relevant). But first a few comments about the way many of the anti-fluoridation activists are cherry picking this and similar data to support their arguments.
Recently I received two specific claims made about this data:
- The oral health of Christchurch people is better than for New Zeland as a whole. The don’t have access to fluoridated water therefore this proves fluoridation doesn’t work.
- In 2011 the mean number of decayed, missing and filled teeth in 5 year old Waikato children was greater for children drinking fluoridated water than for those drinking unfluoridated water. This proves fluoridation doesn’t work.
In both claims data was carefully selected to “prove” fluoridation doesn’t work. One can’t directly compare Christchurch data with that for the whole of New Zealand as that ignores the influence of ethnic, social and other factors. And selection of one small piece (Waikato in 2011) of the total picture cannot give you any idea of that total picture. The data includes all sorts of variation over time and region and these cherry-pickers are make cynical use of this.
I have summarised the MOH data in this table as the changes for the percentage of carries free teeth, and mdmf – the mean number decayed, missing and filled teeth per child per year. The data are for 2 age groups and are averages, over the period 2002 to 2011, of annual data . The totals and the separate data for Maori give some idea of differences which are probably largely a result of the well established social and economic disadvantage of Maori.
Effect of fluoridation of % carries free and mdmf
Year 8 |
||
| Total | Maori | |
| Carries free (%) | 8.86 | 10.42 |
| MDMF* | -0.48 | -0.81 |
5 years |
||
| Total | Maori | |
| Carries free (%) | 8.05 | 12.46 |
| MDMF* | -0.63 | -1.38 |
*MDMF = Mean decayed, missing and filled teeth
I think that shows fluoridation is associated with a clear increase in numbers of carries free teeth, and a clear decrease in the mean decayed, missing and filled teeth.
So much for FANN’s claim “that there is no difference in dental decay rates between fluoridated and non-fluoridated areas.”
The figures below show the g=data graphically to enable readers to get a better understanding.
First a comparison of average annual % carries free teeth and mdmf in the period 2002 -2011 for the two age groups.
% carries free
Mean decayed, missing and filled teeth
Plots of the data below give and idea of variability and trends. They also show the influence of social and economic deprivation is long-term.
% carries free
MEAN DECAYED, MISSING AND FILLED TEETH
A comment in trends
Some anti-fluoridationists are making an issue of the apparent improvement in oral health for people consuming unfluoridated as well as fluoridated water. For example, the claim above asserts:
“When you observe the statistics of the world they clearly show tooth decay has declined in both fluoridated and non-fluoridated areas alike.”
Perhaps they think that this somehow covers up the fact that despite the trends oral health it is still better for the fluoridated groups.
Mind you, another reason is that many of the statistics they refer to are presented only graphically. For example this figure from Fluoride Alert (an anti-fluoridation group) actually does not correspond to the data it refers to.
It seems the figure was constructed using only 2 data points of each line – 1 very old and 1 recent. This means that all sorts of factors, (such as changes in criteria and attitude of dentists towards saving teeth) could be involved – quite apart from fluoridation.
The data I have plotted above the New Zealand in the period 2002 – 2011 does not show the declines that the anit-fluoridationists claim.
Another example of cherry-picking to mislead.
See also:
Getting a grip on the science behind claims about fluoridation
Is fluoride an essential dietary mineral?
Fluoridation – are we dumping toxic metals into our water supplies?
Tactics and common arguments of the anti-fluoridationists
Hamilton City Council reverses referendum fluoridation decision
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- Release: David Parker speech – Piketty, Inequality and Climate Change
David Parker's speech from the University of Auckland's forum on Piketty, Inequality and Climate Change in September 2024. ...21 hours ago
- Release: Youth mental wellbeing no longer a priority for Child Poverty Minister
Louise Upston has revealed her diminished vision for vulnerable youth against a backdrop of snubbed advice, scrapped priorities, shifted goal posts and thousands more children projected to fall into poverty. ...22 hours ago
- Release: National’s lack of climate action taking NZ backwards
National Government’s backward-looking climate policy has seen New Zealand fall seven places on the Climate Change Performance Index to 41 out of 63 countries measured. ...22 hours ago
- Release: Simple reason for drop in emergency housing
When the Government says it has reduced the number of people in emergency housing, what it means is it is stopping people from accessing it in the first place. ...1 day ago
- Govt’s child wellbeing strategy ‘shallow and shameful’
The Government is turning its back on children by not only weakening child poverty reduction targets, but also removing child mental wellbeing as a priority focus in their Child and Youth Wellbeing Strategy. ...1 day ago
- Release: A historic win for Samoan communities
Labour warmly welcomes the Restoring Samoan Citizenship Bill as it passes its third reading, before becoming law. ...1 day ago
- Government plan to reinstate live animal exports a “national disgrace”
The Government has taken a giant step backwards by reinstating live animal exports. ...2 days ago
- Pasifika justice as Member’s Bill passes final reading
Teanau Tuiono’s Member’s Bill, the Citizenship (Western Samoa Restoration) Amendment Bill, has passed its third reading and will become law. ...2 days ago
- Release: Minister of Education thinks New Zealand ends at the Bombay Hills
The Minister of Education has shown complete disregard for rural communities and their school bus routes in Question Time today. ...2 days ago
- Economists sound alarm on Government’s slash-and-burn approach
A group of prominent economists has released an open letter to the Government, raising grave concerns about the far-reaching consequences of its fiscal policy. ...2 days ago
- Release: Smoking numbers up under Costello’s watch
National’s repeal of Labour’s smokefree legislation has taken New Zealand further away from achieving a Smokefree 2025 and a smokefree generation. ...2 days ago
- Release: Call for Palestine recognition by NZ, Australian and Canadian MPs
Parliamentarians from Australia, Canada and New Zealand have written an open letter to their respective Prime Ministers calling on them to recognise Palestine. ...2 days ago
- Justice Select Committee opens floor for Treaty Principles submissions
Today, the Justice Select Committee has decided to officially open submissions for the controversial Treaty Principles Bill. ...3 days ago
- Power of the people on full display as hīkoi approaches Parliament
Today, Hīkoi mō te Tiriti arrived in Wellington, with thousands gathering to march in unity against the divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...3 days ago
- Hypocrisy as Te Whatu Ora contractor bill balloons
Te Whatu Ora’s bill for contracting and consulting staff has ballooned by nearly 20 percent under the National Government, breaking a promise they made during the election campaign to cut contractors. ...4 days ago
- Release: Growing pressure to scrap Section 7AA Repeal Bill
The newly released Section 7AA Repeal Bill's select committee report is further evidence that the Government should scrap it. ...5 days ago
- Government’s move to monetise access to nature a slippery slope
The Green Party is voicing serious concerns over the Government’s proposal to charge for access to public conservation land, released today. ...1 week ago
- Green Party condemns the passage of Treaty Principles Bill
The Green Party condemns the passing of the Treaty Principles Bill at first reading, and is clear that the fight is not over. ...1 week ago
- Stand Up for Te Tiriti
Te Tiriti o Waitangi is our country’s founding document. It forms the basis of the relationship between Māori and the Crown – and the Aotearoa New Zealand we live in today. ...1 week ago
- Release: Over 15,000 sign Labour’s open letter to Luxon
As the hīkoi to Parliament continues, Labour has sent an open letter to Prime Minister Christopher Luxon in a last-ditch attempt to get him to kill the Treaty Principles Bill. ...1 week ago
- Fast Track Bill threatens environment, climate and reputation
The fast-track legislation passing its second reading in Parliament is another step towards environmental ruin. ...1 week ago
- Greens join King’s Counsel in calling for Treaty Principles Bill to be abandoned
The Prime Minister must answer the call from a group of senior lawyers of the King’s Counsel to abandon the divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...1 week ago
- Chris Hipkins’ apology statement to state and faith-based care survivors
...1 week ago
- Release: Labour formally apologises to state and faith-based care survivors
Labour joins with the Government in unreservedly apologising for the abuse, neglect and trauma including torture in state and faith-based care and for ignoring the voices of survivors for too long. ...1 week ago
- Green Party stands in support of survivors of abuse in care
Today, the Green Party stands alongside the survivors of abuse in state care and faith-based care as the Government issues an historic apology. ...1 week ago
- Green Party calls for conscience vote on Treaty Principles Bill
The Green Party has written to the Speaker of the House requesting he enable a personal vote on the Treaty Principles Bill. ...2 weeks ago
- Govt move to exclude journalist risks chilling effect
The Green Party is alarmed by the Government’s move to exclude a journalist from covering this week’s apology for the survivors of abuse in state and faith-based care. ...2 weeks ago
- Without action, an apology will be empty air
For tomorrow’s apology to survivors of abuse in state and faith-based care to hold any water, the Government must not pursue the same policies that drove the abuse in the first place. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Concerns remain over tobacco interference
Concerns about the tobacco industry’s ability to interfere in government policy making remain, despite the inability of the Office of the Auditor-General to investigate the Government’s decision to halve the excise tax on heated tobacco products. ...2 weeks ago
- Urgent wake-up call on climate
The Climate Change Commission’s latest advice indicates Aotearoa needs to be stepping up on climate action. ...2 weeks ago
- Green MP’s Meme-ber’s Bill set to save the world
Break out the punchlines and dust off your meme folder: Green Party MP Kahurangi Carter’s Copyright (Parody and Satire) Amendment Bill was pulled from the Ballot yesterday. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Poroporoaki: Ta Robert (Bom) Gillies
Kua hinga te manawa kairākau o Te Rua Tekau Ma Waru Tiwhatiwha te po! Kakarauru i te po! Ka rapuhia kei hea koe kua riro! Haere e te Ika a Whiro ki o tini hoa kua ngaro atu ki te Pō ...2 weeks ago
- Labour, Greens and Te Pāti Māori call on the Prime Minister to block the Treaty Principles Bill
The opposition parties stand united for an Aotearoa that honours Te Tiriti, rather than seeking to rewrite it. Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori are working together against the Government’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Labour, Greens and Te Pāti Māori call on the Prime Minister to block the Treaty Principle...
The opposition parties stand united for an Aotearoa that honours Te Tiriti, rather than seeking to rewrite it. Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori are working together against the Government’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...2 weeks ago
- NZ must pursue independent foreign policy
The Green Party says the need is greater than ever for Aotearoa New Zealand to pursue an independent foreign policy. ...2 weeks ago
- Appointments strengthen Predator Free 2050
The latest Predator Free 2050 Board appointments will help to strengthen biodiversity efforts across Aotearoa New Zealand, Conservation Minister Tama Potaka says. Mr Potaka today announced two appointments to the Board of Directors of Predator Free 2050 Limited, a key player in the wider Predator Free 2050 Programme. “The Predator ...2 hours ago - New facility in Christchurch will improve the lives of young New Zealanders
Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey today opened Kahurangi, an innovative and much-needed facility for Canterbury’s Child, Adolescent, and Family Mental Health Services. “The new state of the art outpatient facility opened today will be a gamechanger for the way mental health is delivered for young people in Canterbury,” says Mr ...2 hours ago
- Driver safety screens to be installed on Auckland buses
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed news from the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) that bus driver protection screens will be installed across Auckland’s bus fleet by 2026.“The Government is committed to improving the safety of working environments for bus drivers, and Budget 2024 allocated $15 million of Crown funding over ...2 hours ago
- Government action provides Southland farmers more time to meet plan requirements
The Government is taking action to ensure Southland farmers and growers are not affected by unreasonable regional farm plan deadlines, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay, Environment Minister Penny Simmonds and Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard say.“Cabinet has agreed to provide more time for farmers and growers to comply with regional rules ...19 hours ago
- Bill reaffirms Government’s commitment to crack down on serious youth offending
The Oranga Tamariki (Responding to Serious Youth Offending) Bill had its first reading at Parliament today. The Bill reaffirms the Government’s commitment to crack down on serious youth offending, Minister for Children Karen Chhour says. “In recent years we have seen an unacceptable spike in youth offending. “This Bill makes ...19 hours ago
- Critical milestones for earthquake buildings review
Fairer, more sensible rules about managing earthquake risks are a step closer with the passing of legislation and the appointment of an independent chair to provide expert advice, Minister for Building and Construction Chris Penk says. “The Government is committed to reinvigorating our cities and regions to support economic growth, ...20 hours ago
- State of the art radiology machine for Auckland
People in Northland and Auckland will benefit from a new machine for cancer treatment installed at the Regional Cancer and Blood Service at Auckland City Hospital. The MV5 linear accelerator, or LINAC machine, officially opened today targets cancer tumours with pinpoint accuracy. Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says this new, ...20 hours ago
- Foreign Minister to visit Europe
Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Winston Peters will travel to Europe for high-level talks with France, Germany and the United Kingdom next week. "Since taking office almost a year ago, the Coalition Government has emphasised the importance we place on New Zealand's traditional and likeminded diplomatic and ...21 hours ago
- First arrests made under gang patch ban
Police have made their first arrests under the new gang patch legislation, with two gang members arrested, says Police Minister Mark Mitchell. “Just before 11 this morning, Police in Wairoa apprehended a gang member for wearing a patch to the supermarket. He has been arrested and will now face enforcement ...22 hours ago
- Better support for victims of sexual violence
The Government is proposing two major changes to name suppression laws that will put the views of victims of sexual violence first, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “We are committed to restoring law and order and these two proposed changes will help ensure the victims of crime are put at ...23 hours ago
- Government moving forward with Regional Deals
Cabinet has agreed to invite all regions to submit proposals for Regional Deals between central and local government that drive economic growth and deliver the infrastructure our country needs, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown and Infrastructure Minister Chris Bishop say. Inviting all regions to propose a Regional Deal that boosts ...23 hours ago
- MSA pilot participant update
One of the ten young men selected to participate in the Military-Style Academy Pilot has allegedly reoffended. Children’s Minister Karen Chhour is disappointed but says it would be naïve to think that none of these young men would reoffend. “I’m saddened that this young person has not taken this opportunity ...24 hours ago
- Fighting for Kiwis in Trade
Delivered at Auckland Trade and Economic Policy School Good morning and thank you Deputy Vice Chancellor Lithander for your warm welcome and for inviting me to open Auckland Trade and Economic Policy School today. A Special thanks to the University of Auckland, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade and ...1 day ago
- Attendance rates increase, again
Associate Education Minister David Seymour says that school attendance is continuing to rise. In Term 3 of 2024 51.3 per cent of students attended school regularly, an increase of 5.3 percentage points from 46 per cent in Term 3 of 2023. “This Government has prioritised student attendance and it is ...1 day ago
- Improving the lives of young New Zealanders
Ensuring New Zealand is the best place in the world for children and young people is the vision at the heart of the Government’s new Child and Youth Strategy, Child Poverty Reduction Minister Louise Upston says. “Childhood represents a huge opportunity to set people on a positive path towards living ...1 day ago
- Government continues work to reinstate livestock exports by sea
The Government is reinstating the trade of livestock exports by sea while ensuring the highest standards of animal welfare, says Associate Minister of Agriculture Andrew Hoggard.“The Government will introduce legislation changes to reinstate the trade, enhance oversight, and strengthen requirements for exporters to identify risks and manage the welfare of ...2 days ago
- Speech to the National Quality Forum 2024
Tēnā koutou katoa – it is a pleasure to be here today. I would like to begin by acknowledging the important leadership role you all play in ensuring a quality health system New Zealanders can trust. There is enormous clinical expertise in this room covering a wide range of disciplines. ...2 days ago
- New Zealand’s COP29 National Statement
Tēnā koutou katoa. Mr President, Excellencies, Delegates. New Zealand, and all nations represented here today, are already dealing with the impacts of climate change. Our households, businesses, and economies are bearing the costs of its effects. The choices we make now will shape the severity of these impacts for generations ...2 days ago
- Latest Quarterly Investment Report released
The Government has released its second Quarterly Investment Report (QIR) which shows substantial work still to be done by agencies to improve investment reporting and meet the Government’s expectations, Infrastructure and Acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “New Zealand has significant infrastructure and investment needs. The Government is determined to get ...2 days ago
- New Zealand supporting loss and damage fund
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts announced New Zealand will contribute NZ$10 million to the new Fund for Responding to Loss and Damage while at the annual United Nations Climate Change Conference (COP29) in Baku, Azerbaijan. “New Zealand is joining the global effort to address the significant challenge of responding to ...2 days ago
- Gang crackdown begins at stroke of midnight
The free ride for gangs is over when the clock strikes midnight tonight, with tough new laws officially coming into effect, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith and Police Minister Mark Mitchell say. “Gang patches will no longer be able to be worn in public. To earn the right to wear a ...2 days ago
- LGFA increases borrowing capacity to support high growth councils
The Government is welcoming the decision by the Local Government Funding Agency to increase access to financing tools for fast growing councils to support greater investment in critical infrastructure, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown says.“Communities across the country are facing an infrastructure deficit and significant population growth is projected in ...2 days ago
- Temporary Traffic Management costs revealed
The Government has revealed that over the past three years, the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) has spent an eyewatering $786 million of taxpayers’ money on road cones and temporary traffic management (TTM), Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“When I became Minister, I was surprised to learn that that NZTA did ...2 days ago
- Jurisdiction of Disputes Tribunal to double
Legislation that will double the financial jurisdiction of the Disputes Tribunal from $30,000 to $60,000 has passed first reading in Parliament today, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith. “We need to improve court timeliness and access to justice so that Kiwis and get on with their lives. Court delays affect everyone, the ...3 days ago
- Protecting New Zealand from foreign interference
Legislation that will specifically criminalise foreign interference and strengthen espionage offences has passed first reading in Parliament today, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “It is normal and appropriate for states to interact and work to influence one another. This encourages cooperation and can have mutually beneficial outcomes. “However, the reality ...3 days ago
- Significant milestone for Canterbury Road of National Significance
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed news that the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) Board has approved funding towards pre-implementation and early works on the State Highway 1 (SH1) Belfast to Pegasus Motorway and Woodend Bypass Road of National Significance (RoNS). “Reaching this significant milestone is a reflection of our Government’s ...3 days ago
- Health survey results to help drive change
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says findings from the annual Health Survey highlight the need to continue driving better health outcomes for New Zealanders. The New Zealand Health Survey is an annual snapshot of key metrics measured from July 2023 – July 2024. Findings released this morning include: In 2023/24, ...3 days ago
- Final push needed to get to Smokefree 2025
A renewed effort to get people to quit smoking will build on what has worked to date and target the groups who most need support, Associate Health Minister Casey Costello said today. “The latest New Zealand Health Survey results show the daily smoking rate at 6.9 per cent and we ...3 days ago
- New diplomatic appointments
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters has announced four new diplomatic appointments. “Our diplomats play an important role in ensuring New Zealand’s interests are maintained and enhanced across the world,” Mr Peters says. “It is a pleasure to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the Ministry of Foreign ...3 days ago
- Next steps for Regulatory Standards Bill
Regulation Minister David Seymour has today announced the next steps in the Government’s plan improve the quality of regulation by opening consultation on a proposed Regulatory Standards Bill. “New Zealand's low wages can be blamed on low productivity, and low productivity can be blamed on poor regulation,” says Mr Seymour. ...3 days ago
- Red Tape Tipline goes live
Minister for Regulation David Seymour has today announced that the Ministry for Regulation’s Red Tape Tipline is now live. “We want to hear about your red tape horror stories. From today, New Zealanders will have a say on how they are regulated through an online portal,” says Mr Seymour. The ...3 days ago
- Youth Parliament 2025 announced
The Minister for Youth Matt Doocey has today announced the eleventh Youth Parliament will be taking place in 2025. “Youth Parliament offers a unique youth development opportunity to young people from across New Zealand to experience the political process and learn about how government works,” says Mr Doocey. “The two-day ...4 days ago
- Police stats show promising change
After nearly a year in Government, Kiwis have seen significant change across law and order with promising early results shown across some Police statistics, says Police Minister Mark Mitchell. “In August 2023, I told New Zealanders that if they had not started to see a change in public safety within ...4 days ago
- Better coordination of anti-scam efforts
With the launch of Fraud Awareness Week, the Government is committing to new coordination efforts across industry and government to combat online scams, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “Online financial scams are a growing problem for New Zealand. New data released today shows that Kiwis lost nearly ...4 days ago
- Minister to consider 7AA select committee report
Minister for Children Karen Chhour will consider the recommendations made by the Social Services and Community Committee in its report back to Parliament on the Oranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill. “I want to thank the people who made submissions and those who appeared before the committee in ...4 days ago
- Defence Minister to attend ASEAN meeting
Defence Minister Judith Collins will this week attend the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) Defence Ministers’ Meeting-Plus in Vientiane, Laos. “We need to take every opportunity to engage with our international partners, given the increasingly unstable geo-political situation,” Ms Collins says. “New Zealand has a long-standing commitment to this ...4 days ago
- Launching the White Ribbon Ride
The Minister for the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence, Karen Chhour, was on hand to wish riders well at the start of the North Island leg of the White Ribbon Ride in Whakatāne this morning. The ride helps mark the International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women, ...5 days ago
- Construction to begin on next stage of Papakura to Drury
Construction on the next stage of the SH1 Papakura to Drury project will begin early next month, with the contract for works awarded to Fulton Hogan, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. "SH1 Papakura to Drury is a key project that will drive economic growth and productivity, reduce congestion, and enable people ...6 days ago
- NZ signs trade deal with Costa Rica, Iceland and Switzerland
Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay has signed a pioneering trade agreement that prioritises New Zealand’s sustainable exports at a ceremony during APEC in Peru today. “The Agreement on Trade and Sustainability (ACCTS), between Costa Rica, Iceland, and Switzerland was concluded in July of this year and opens up significant ...6 days ago
- Government and iwi work together on aquaculture
Five new Aquaculture Settlement Areas will help ensure Ngāi Tahu shares in the opportunities aquaculture offers for Southland’s economy, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. “The Aquaculture Settlement Areas (ASAs) I’m announcing today set aside space so the Crown and Ngāi Tahu can assess their potential for aquaculture development. ...7 days ago
- Justice Committee Makes Further Decisions About Submissions Process For The Principles Of The Treaty...
The committee plans to hold hearings in the week starting Monday, 27 January and the weeks starting 10, 17 and 24 February 2025. ...37 minutes ago - Watch live: Christopher Luxon faces questions during power station visit
It comes as Labour accuses National of not listening to evidence about boot camps. ...47 minutes ago - Survivors of abuse in care know how redress should work – will the government finally listen?
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephen Winter, Associate Professor in Political Theory, University of Auckland, Waipapa Taumata Rau Getty Images When Prime Minister Christopher Luxon stood in Parliament last week to apologise to survivors of abuse in care, his words were among many fine speeches by ...1 hour ago - Review: The Day of the Jackal is a riveting and ridiculous ride
Eddie Redmayne’s globe-trotting assassin thriller on TVNZ is worth putting your phone down for. This is an excerpt from our weekly pop culture newsletter Rec Room. Sign up here. This is a vulnerable thing to say as someone who often writes about television for a job, but boy am I really ...1 hour ago - RNA editing is the next frontier in gene therapy – here’s what you need to know
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Flora Hui, Research Fellow, Centre for Eye Research Australia and Honorary Fellow, Department of Surgery (Ophthalmology), The University of Melbourne IoanaB/Shutterstock The United States Food and Drug Administration has just approved the first-ever clinical trial that uses CRISPR-Cas13 RNA editing. Its ...3 hours ago
- Yes, you still need to use sunscreen, despite what you’ve heard on TikTok
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Katie Lee, PhD Candidate, Dermatology Research Centre, The University of Queensland Karolina Grabowska/Pexels Summer is nearly here. But rather than getting out the sunscreen, some TikTokers are urging followers to chuck it out and go sunscreen-free. They claim it’s healthier ...3 hours ago
- Humans are killing off the old and wise animals that hold nature together. Here’s what must change
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Keller Kopf, Senior Lecturer in Ecology, Charles Darwin University Laxmikant Ameenagad, Shutterstock In humans and other animals, ageing is generally associated with a decline in biological function. But scientists are now discovering older animals perform vital roles in populations and ecosystems. ...3 hours ago
- A man scouring Google Earth found a mysterious scar in the Australian outback – and now scientists...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Matej Lipar, Adjunct Research Fellow, School of Earth and Planetary Sciences, Curtin University Author provided/Google Earth Earlier this year, a caver was poring over satellite images of the Nullarbor Plain when he came across something unexpected: an enormous, mysterious scar etched ...3 hours ago
- Design as a movement: how First Nations people take ownership of their cultural stories through fash...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Treena Clark, Chancellor’s Indigenous Research Fellow, Faculty of Design, Architecture and Building, University of Technology Sydney Once located 250 metres to the east of the Art Gallery of South Australia, the grand beaux-arts style Jubilee Exhibition Building was constructed to house the ...3 hours ago
- ‘We need more doctors’ – Support for new Waikato medical school
The Association of Salaried Medical Specialists says a third medical school and more students in Auckland and Otago are both needed. ...3 hours ago
- Cricket balls can concuss and even kill batters – at all levels, helmet use must be taken seriousl...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Annette Greenhow, Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, Bond University Linda George/Shutterstock The ten-year anniversary of the death of much-loved Australian cricketer Phillip Hughes falls on November 27. The 25-year-old’s life was tragically cut short in 2014 when a bouncer ...3 hours ago
- Hold the roosters, no economic dawn yet
Treasury likely to downgrade economic forecast while Chris Bishop says the government won’t be ‘a slave to a surplus’, writes Anna Rawhiti-Connell in this extract from The Bulletin. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. Recession will be deeper and last longer — Treasury At a recent Spinoff ...4 hours ago
- Knowing superstitions aren’t real doesn’t stop us behaving superstitiously – why?
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephanie Gomes-Ng, Senior Lecturer of Psychology, Auckland University of Technology Getty Images Former New Zealand prime minister John Key has three white rabbits painted on his helicopter, a nod to his “massively superstitious” habit of repeating “white rabbits” three times at ...5 hours ago
- Government slammed for pushing ahead with boot camps while trial still under way
The coalition has "absolutely no intention of listening to the evidence that comes out of their experiment", Labour MP says. ...6 hours ago
- Smoke and mirrors in heated tobacco debate
Labour claims Government is ‘cherry-picking’ smoking trends data to hide decade-first increase in daily smokers The post Smoke and mirrors in heated tobacco debate appeared first on Newsroom. ...6 hours ago - Smoke and mirrors in tobacco debate
Labour claims Government is ‘cherry-picking’ smoking trends data to hide decade-first increase in daily smokers The post Smoke and mirrors in tobacco debate appeared first on Newsroom. ...6 hours ago
- Treasury bangs the drum on ‘unsustainable’ superannuation
The Government’s economic adviser is sending a message it doesn’t want to hear – superannuation is increasingly unaffordable The post Treasury bangs the drum on ‘unsustainable’ superannuation appeared first on Newsroom. ...6 hours ago
- Victims of sex offending welcome shift on name suppression laws
A man abused by a former political figure is "immensely relieved" at a government proposal to end secrecy around sex offenders' identities. ...6 hours ago
- This week three parties stood together – can they withstand the storm to come?
There is plenty yet to play out, but the next election is at this rate shaping up as trio versus trio, writes Toby Manhire. A subplot of this week’s historic hīkoi mō te Tiriti has been the sight of the three opposition parties presenting a unified front. Te Pāti Māori ...7 hours ago
- All 33 malls in Auckland ranked from worst to best
From the low lows of abandon empires to the high highs of a mall done just right. This is the second in the Malls of New Zealand series, where we rank the malls in major centres. Next week: Wellington. A note from the editor: This is the hardest ranking we’ve ...7 hours ago
- The cost of being: A clothes-mad 20-something who walks everywhere
As part of our series exploring how New Zealanders live and our relationship with money, a 27-year-old apartment-dwelling marketing exec explains her approach to spending and saving. Want to be part of The Cost of Being? Fill out the questionnaire here. Gender: Female. Age: 27. Ethnicity: Pākehā. Role: Marketing exec at ...7 hours ago
- Burma the flying elephant
After about two and a half years of planning and waiting, New Zealand’s last elephant has moved to her new home at Monarto Safari Park in South Australia.Burma and her “human herd”, that is, her keepers, arrived last week, and she’s settling in well, according to Auckland Zoo’s Andrew Coers.“Something ...7 hours ago
- NZ’s membership of Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance in jeopardy
Senior ministers in the coalition suggested NZ’s membership will be re-evaluated if it restarts offshore oil and gas drilling The post NZ’s membership of Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance in jeopardy appeared first on Newsroom. ...7 hours ago
- Raw Politics: Six months in a leaky Bill
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon did not meet the Treaty Principles Bill hikoi crowd, sees “nothing” of merit in the Act-proposed law but the Parliament his Government dominates will spend six months debating a “divisive” measure.That’s because he has accepted there needs to be “aeration” of people’s views on the Treaty, ...7 hours ago
- Taken to the brink, Govt is now close to selling big Whakapapa ski field
Bidder Whakapapa Holdings walked away from the sales process last year, but says it’s now ‘95% there’ on a purchase agreement – so who blinked first? The post Taken to the brink, Govt is now close to selling big Whakapapa ski field appeared first on Newsroom. ...7 hours ago
- Newsroom daily quiz, Friday 22 November
Loading…(function(i,s,o,g,r,a,m){var ql=document.querySelectorAll('A[data-quiz],DIV[data-quiz]'); if(ql){if(ql.length){for(var k=0;k<ql.length;k++){ql[k].id='quiz-embed-'+k;ql[k].href="javascript:var i=document.getElementById('quiz-embed-"+k+"');try{qz.startQuiz(i)}catch(e){i.start=1;i.style.cursor='wait';i.style.opacity='0.5'};void(0);"}}};i['QP']=r;i[r]=i[r]||function(){(i[r].q=i[r].q||[]).push(arguments)},i[r].l=1*new Date();a=s.createElement(o),m=s.getElementsByTagName(o)[0];a.async=1;a.src=g;m.parentNode.insertBefore(a,m)})(window,document,'script','https://take.quiz-maker.com/3012/CDN/quiz-embed-v1.js','qp');Got a good quiz question? Send Newsroom your questions.The post Newsroom daily quiz, Friday 22 November appeared first on Newsroom. ...7 hours ago
- Daily crossword, Friday 22 November
The post Daily crossword, Friday 22 November appeared first on Newsroom. ...7 hours ago
- China likely to strengthen regional relationships in response to another Trump term
Opinion: Recent discussions in Shanghai provide some insight into what’s likely to be on the table The post China likely to strengthen regional relationships in response to another Trump term appeared first on Newsroom. ...7 hours ago
- Nuclear winters know no borders
Opinion: The immediate horror of nuclear weapon explosions – the blinding flash, crushing blast wave, and radioactive inferno – is well documented.But what nuclear-armed nations either don’t grasp or won’t admit, is far more chilling: how their weapons could devastate even countries thousands of kilometres from any mushroom clouds.The collapse ...7 hours ago
- This week’s bestselling books – November 22
FICTION1 Kāwai: Tree of Nourishment by Monty Soutar (David Bateman, $39.99)Sample dialogue, all from one chapter:“That can’t be,” replied Taona doubtfully.“You were right. The pā is unnervingly quiet,” Taona murmured.“The Hākuwai,” Motukia breathed. “Our grandfathers told us they rarely saw the Hākuwai in daylight,” Motukia muttered.“Their fight would have been futile ...7 hours ago
- Watts nears a landmark deal on global carbon trading
A framework for global carbon trading under the Paris Agreement is finally nearing completion at COP29 in Baku, Azerbaijan after years of halting talks.Climate Change Minister Simon Watts is one of two ministers tasked by the COP29 hosts with landing a long-sought deal on Article 6 of the climate accord, ...7 hours ago
- Grattan on Friday: Marles plays a defensive bat on nuclear as the government rushes to get though la...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Richard Marles is an ambitious man who hasn’t given up the dream of one day reaching the top job. But, despite being deputy prime minister, his profile is much lower than that of Treasurer Jim ...12 hours ago
- Fears Māori will pay heaviest price if police carry guns
"Overwhelmingly, those people who die will be young Māori men," the spokesperson for People Against Prisons Aotearoa says. ...14 hours ago
- NEW POLL: Kiwis Overwhelmingly Support MPs’ Expenses Transparency Law Change
62% of respondents support the extension of the OIA to cover MPs’ spending, compared to just 13% opposed and 24% were unsure. ...14 hours ago
- The House: Meanwhile, a week of passing law
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I really don’t understand why we need to be having this…add the fluride to the water and if the whackos don’t like they can buy a water filter
Your new-found respect for evidence is very welcome.
this whacko was talking to the dental nurse about this subject during my 11 yr old sons dental appointment.
her concern was the food acid in energy drinks and processed food.
she has recently seen children leave primary school cavity free and one year later return with serious decay issues.
the problem with this issue is that nothing can be taken in isolation as causal.
education (of parents), diet, disposable income etc.
btw, the child in the chair was complimented on the health of his teeth, he lives on tank water, brushes twice a day and very rarely has fizzy and never food with artificial sweetener.
Hmmmm yeah those energy drinks more acidic than Coke, and Coke can derust a part in 24 hours
I’m unsure how effective that water filters would be. I’d have to look at the size of molecule that a water filter could strain and/or chemically bind.
Not to mention that most water filters aren’t that effective because they are seldom if ever cleaned and the filters replaced.
It always amuses me asking people about their usage of water filters and then pointing out that they are in fact increasing their risks through poor maintenance.
They’d be better off buying bottled water from a known source and taking the risk of that supplier instead.
Standard carbon filter should do the trick, mostly due to the chemical properties of SiF6 which make it very, very attracted to slightly positive atoms in a molecule. Like juicy hydrogen groups or in the case of carbon filters, the deliciously not strongly bound electrons of the carbons, especially in aromatic rings.
Would have to be replaced according to manufacturer guidelines though, otherwise as you said, they filter wont do crap.
Or they could collect water off their roof the way rural dwellers do.
So long as you’ve got something to to disinfect it, otherwise you run the risk of cholera.
like the chlorine they add to municipal water. An actual poison (used in chemical warfare) added at four times the rate of fluoride. Double standards, much?
No double standards, I wasn’t advocating chlorine use.
False accusation much?
Ah, one of those non-poisonous disinfectants.
Silver?
or sunlight
Fair enough. So people opposed to fluoridation can collect roof water, an easy opt-out solution.
Not as easy as getting your water from the council supply, but probably the most practical idea if you don’t want council water.
a viable alternative, though.
Only if you can afford it. Double standard much?
bucket.
hypocrite.
Why? The gripe is that fluoridation is mass medication that can’t be avoided. If people are that concerned about it, then an alternative falls out of the sky. Or the local brewery’s free aquifer tap. Or a filter (though opinion is divided here). Or a still. Or supplied by tanker. Heck, if water in a pet bottle can provide clean water with a developing nation budget, it’s NZ-affordable.
The point being that if someone is so naive to believe that they have control over everything they injest down to a single part per million, there are options across the financial spectrum. So nah, even if one really wanted to call it “mass medication”, it’s still a massive call to use forced-medication ethical arguments.
Of course it is forced mass medication. If you had your way, you’d override the wishes of local government and make implementation of fluoridation compulsory by central legislative or regulatory mandate.
1: Hamilton council overrode its best knowledge of the wishes of the populace to remove fluoridation, so you’re on thin ice there;
2: If alternatives are accessible so you don’t need to injest it, it’s not “forced” by definition. Alternatives are available, therefore it’s obviously not “forced mass medication” and you are again using words you do not understand.
extra cluebat: it’s not “forced mass medication” if people aren’t medicated when they choose not to be.
Meh good as forced then.
no, because people don’t have to drink that water if they don’t want to.
Until you make them, or make their food with it
so now the local councils are making people drink municipal water? Or force-feeding them bread made with fluoridated water? No? Okay then.
McFlock, the reason you are being hypocritical is that on the one hand I am pretty sure you have argued that poor people are more at risk of tooth decay and so should be afforded a public health response. But what about poor people that want to avoid fluoridated water? Or are you suggesting that it’s only well off people that might want to do this? Not everyone can afford to install a rainwater tank, or has a car to get to the speights tap, or has an ability to use a fucking bucket.
“…
24 June 2013 at 11:51 pm
so now the local councils are making people drink municipal water? Or force-feeding them bread made with fluoridated water? No? Okay then.”
No-one is forcing anyone to eat a teeth damaging diet, or not clean their teeth properly either.
Isn’t this getting a bit ridiculous?
@ weka
Basically, I do think that fluoridated water supplies are more concerning for the rich than the poor, like vaccination. And for those poor people who are concerned about fluoride, there are many alternatives. But let’s say that there are 5 poor people who cannot find an alternative water source and are still concerned about fluoride. Do I care? No, because they are being delivered a potable water supply. I don’t believe that municipal authorities have an obligation to provide distilled, lab-quality, 99.99999999% pure water to households. Clean and drinkable yes. Stuff that has the dead rats taken out, if you will. But having an argument about something that has no demonstrable harm but a demonstrated association with positive health while not affecting any humanly-detectable quality of the water, I reckon that’s mostly the realm of people with few real worries.
My point was in response to CV calling fluoridation “forced mass medication”, which is indeed ridiculous. But bad caries-free/DMFT levels are not just the result of diet and lack of brushing, or even access to dental care. Even if everyone brushed thrice daily and ate like our neolithic ancestors, some of us would still get caries. Fluoride is complementary to other interventions, not a substitute, and vice versa.
cholera wipes out whole populations. Dental caries not so much. What was that fancy idea called again? Risk/benefits, right?
Well, you obviously think that the risk/benefit ration is worthwhile. How many milligrams/kg do you put your intake ate again?
Not unless you’ve got someone who carries Vibrio cholerae shitting on your roof.
I’ve lived in rural houses where the rainwater was collected off the roof, and visited a number of similar houses, and never yet seen anyone bother to disinfect their rainwater. I guess rascally people who climb on other peoples’ roofs to take a crap, and also happen to carry Vibrio cholerae, can’t be all that common.
When we had tank water many of our visitors used to get upset stomachs. We, and our kids, seemed to be immune.
The odd dead rat or possum did improve the flavour!
Have to agree with Roy – people have been using tank water for a very long time. But I’ve heard similar as KJT as well – that some people not used to it get stomach upsets. Even people who have their own tank water at home, when they go somewhere else. What does that tell us?
immune systems get trained up for the challenges that they are exposed to
Citation needed.
Ach, the illogic and bias in the first few paragraphs, can’t stand it. Fortunately I have a meeting to go to…
😆 Quite likely. I’m pre-disposed to believe that I can “boost my immune system”, but many credible sources pour cold water on the notion.
Perhaps not the best citation ever though.
I’ll probably read the article because it does look like it’s got some interesting things in it. It’s just that science should be about exploring how immunity works, not pouring cold water on how it works 😉
There is no doubt that there are things we can do to improve our personal immunity, even science knows that. It’s also pretty clear that science doesn’t know all there is to know about immunity yet.
And to go back to what CV said, I don’t think there is any doubt either that the immune system gets ‘trained’ by what it is exposed to.
weka – the best way to look at the immune system is as your body’s standing military force. An extraordinarily powerful one, with an arsenal quite able to kill a human being in fifteen minutes or less.
But it is also requires a high level of discipline, of in-the-field training, and ongoing logistics supply, in order to function optimally.
EDIT – OAK’s citation is just irrelevant, and in the wrong universe.
That while their immune systems might be used to it, they still should take the dead rats out of the tank?
I was going to say that we’re all individuals with individual responses to what we get exposed to in our environment 😉
I was thinking more of avian cholera
Or don’t add the fluoride to the water supply and the if the whackos don’t like it they can brush their teeth?
Mike S,
Was gonna say that but you got it in first.
I am from Amsterdam Holland and when I was first approached by the anti Fluoride “whacko’s” on the Hamilton farmer markets I responded when asked to sign their petition that I wouldn’t because I believed in fluoridation. It wasn’t until many years later I changed my mind and decided that we are not entitled to add any chemicals to the finite source of water no matter what the chemicals and that clean and healthy chemical water was a birth right of all species.
As it happens we chuck in loads of them already in unhealthy and uncontrollable amounts and I don’t see why we should add fluoride to it.
Decay is the result of adding unhealthy chemical products such as refined sugar and highely refined and processed carbohydrates to our diet and why not take them out first before we add chemicals to prevent tooth decay to the water.
Sugar I might add doesn’t just rot your teeth but it makes you fat, causes many health issues such as diabetes and makes a few already stinking rich families even richer.
So ditch the sugar and chemical laden soda pops and other crap out of your diet and voila no fluoridation needed in the first place.
See you don’t have to go the nutcase or the wacko route. Common sense dictates that if we want people to be healthier we should make sure we eat healthier and take the detrimental chemicals they already eat out of their food and you don’t have to argue the for or against reasons of fluoride.
And lets remember chemicals added to food to make it last longer, make it taste better no matter what that “food” is hugely profitable for already stinking rich people much like the sale of fluoride is.
Mike S,
Was gonna say that but you got it in first.
I am from Amsterdam Holland and when I was first approached by the anti Fluoride “whacko’s” on the Hamilton farmer markets I responded when asked to sign their petition that I wouldn’t because I believed in fluoridation. It wasn’t until many years later I changed my mind and decided that we are not entitled to add any chemicals to the finite source of water no matter what the chemicals and that clean and healthy chemical water was a birth right of all species.
As it happens we chuck in loads of them already in unhealthy and uncontrollable amounts and I don’t see why we should add fluoride to it.
Decay is the result of adding unhealthy chemical products such as refined sugar and highely refined and processed carbohydrates to our diet and why not take them out first before we add chemicals to prevent tooth decay to the water.
Sugar I might add doesn’t just rot your teeth but it makes you fat, causes many health issues such as diabetes and makes a few already stinking rich families even richer.
So ditch the sugar and chemical laden soda pops and other crap out of your diet and voila no fluoridation needed in the first place.
See you don’t have to go the nutcase or the wacko route. Common sense dictates that if we want people to be healthier we should make sure we eat healthier and take the detrimental chemicals they already eat out of their food and you don’t have to argue the for or against reasons of fluoride.
And lets remember chemicals added to food to make it last longer, make it taste better no matter what that “food” is hugely profitable for already stinking rich people much like the sale of fluoride is.
Purgatory!!!
By the way, When I did some research to respond to Ken Perrot who left a comment on my blog I thought to check up on the Amsterdam fluoridation situation and guess what?
It turns out that while Amsterdam was one of the first cities to add fluoride to the otherwise chlorine and chemical free water supply (To this day I might add) in 1969 if I recall correctly, making us all very proud that we were so well taken care of in such a modern way it was also the first city to get rid of it again in 1973! (without any fanfare by the way. A possible sign they did not want to have to pay damages to the people affected by the temporary poisoning of their drinking water.)
Why? Because they kept and eye on the possible side effects and it turned out that in cities which had part Amsterdam water and part filtered dune water in separate water supply systems the neighborhoods with Amsterdam water started to report all kinds of health issues which disappeared when fluoridated water was discontinued.
Seems simple to me and while I used to be proud I was drinking fluoridated water to keep my teeth I am now even more proud of my city of Amsterdam making that decision all those years ago.
So why do I still have all my teeth at 57 if it wasn’t for ingesting this miracle chemical we should all drink? Perhaps it was because we had free dental care for everybody with six monthly checkups. Perhaps it was because I never did drink any coca cola and other crappy sugar laden soda pops and brush my teeth regularly. Or perhaps it was because like everybody else until recently I did brush my teeth with fluoridated tooth paste. Who knows? One thing is for sure drinking it wasn’t the reason
Oops, Here is the link to the summary of papers published on the Amsterdam, Netherlands fluoridation experiment.
Oops** ” clean and healthy chemical water” should of course have been ” clean and healthy chemical FREE water”.
A chemical-free chemical?
Methinks that the water supply may have been laced with the deadly dihydrogen monoxide.
Chemical
noun
a compound or substance that has been purified or prepared, esp. artificially : never mix disinfectant with other chemicals | controversy arose over treatment of apples with this chemical.
From my computer’s dictionary. I think it’s a bit of a limited definition, but it serves to illustrate my point. To most humans on the planet, water is something that flows in rivers, you drink it or eventually die, and you can wash things with it. Sometimes it falls from the sky.
Honestly, most people don’t think of water as a chemical, and most people aren’t scientists. You can argue all you like about technical definitions, but it doesn’t help the debate in any way at all.
People who can write the chemistry name for water think they’re clever and/or funny, but we all have google and that pejorative meme is old and tired now.
Once everyone figures out what dihydrogen monoxide is, we can worry about hydrogen hydroxide and hydroxylic acid as well. On a serious note, I take your point about communicating with non-specialists. We can’t stick to the technical meanings of words, but have to use them in ways that are understood. As long as this is done without conveying misinformation, I don’t object at all.
As far as fluoride goes, I doubt if it’s harmful in the quantities used and I can’t really be bothered learning more about it. The issue as far as I’m concerned is one of compulsory medication. If someone doesn’t want fluoride in their system, any caries is only going to be in their own teeth. Unless they want to bite me or kiss me, it’s none of my business.
I think a good argument can be made for many vaccination programs, but not for mass fluoridation. I’m bloody glad that I benefitted from programs against polio, smallpox, rubella, and tetanus, for example. I saw too many people only slightly older than myself who didn’t.
The did a funny test in California where they asked people in the street should (a href=”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_hoax”>dihydrogen monoxide also known as H2O be banned and 9 out of 10 people said yes and signed the petition.
The real joke here is that dihydrogen monoxide actually is toxic to aquatic life. A fish in water is a living fish, but a fish in dihydrogen monoxide is a fish dying from oxygen deprivation.
Or alternately control freaks could add fluoride to their own water if they choose to. 🙂
Apparently its all very safe so yeah sounds like a do it at home job for the Fluoridistas.
“Or alternately control freaks could add fluoride to their own water if they choose to”
Except this is a public health issue, so that doesn’t really work in terms of addressing the need.
If peoples teeth were literally falling out then yeah for sure but it is nowhere near that in fact the advantages are not that significant imho. I just don’t like the idea of chemicals of any kind being added to such a key resource. If you want it in your water add it yourself. Don’t force me or anyone that doesn’t want to have it to have no choice in the matter. Making fizzy drinks cost more than bottled water would be far more beneficial when it comes to combating tooth decay than adding fluoride to water… again imho.
So how do you feel about iodine being added to salt?
As soon as you talk about public policy in terms of need, you’re effectively only communicating with the brain-dead. Need and reason are more or less mutually exclusive.
The original reason for fluoride was do dumb the population down.
🙄
We need better drivel.
No need to be so hard on yourself. Just read up on how to construct a coherent argument and you’ll have a chance for improvement.
Could you be more vacuous? You comment here, day after day, demonstrating little but your own conceit, credulity and ignorance.
The problem, twit, is that you persist in attempting to derive results from conclusions, and in doing so you make a laughing stock, which is why so many of us are laughing at you.
Can I recommend this, One Anonymous Knucklehead
http://www.redseal.co.nz/product/relaxing-tea/ ?
I am seriously worried you are going to give yourself cancer with all this nastiness.
Kia Ora
It is all very well to look at the science of fluoridation and I commend the research for being done, but seriously, what is so hard about teaching children from an early age to do their teeth?
What is also so hard about using some common sense and not having bottles of coke at the bedsides of children over night. If they really need a drink, get a glass of water.
Through that my parents managed to save themselves a small fortune in terms of taking my brother and I to the dentist. The only time it got expensive was when I came off my bike in an accident and needed a crown, and when I had to have all four wisdom teeth taken out under anaesthetic.
Common sense, really.
It’s not a replacement for personal oral hygiene, it’s a supplement. Not everyone has teeth like yours (although if you drank a lot of water as a kid and the supply had fluoride in it, who’s to say whether that might not be why?).
A compulsory supplement? Where at least 299/300 kids being medicated get no benefit in terms of just one less decayed, filled or missing tooth?
I don’t think so.
Well, given that the charts above show a mean association of around one less decayed, filled or missing tooth per child across the entire population, by your figure that one child who benefits retains in the region of 300 perfect teeth.
Shark Boy, perhaps?
Yeah whoops. When you feed 25 children fluoridated water, just 1 more of them ends up caries free.
Yes.
And unless that kid would otherwise have had 40-odd DMFT, then it looks like at least some of their peers would have better teeth than without fluoride.
But even so, that’s something like 4,000 kids with perfect teeth every year.
And to get those extra 4000 kids you have to fluoridate 1,000,000 of them.
Don’t try to do math anymore.
1 in 25 is 4%.
4% of 1,000,000 is 40,000.
🙂
In fact, if your children are non-Maori, mass medication fluoridation will only help say 1/500 or 1/600 kids, in terms of one less tooth affected by decay, filling or missing.
499 out of the 500 children will get no benefit.
Fucking hopeless mass medication. 0.2% of the non-Maori kids who swallow it might benefit, and even fewer adults if you can imagine that. Might be time to ditch it, like all of Germany has done for over 2 decades.
[Citation Needed]
Pretty sure I screwed up the magnitude there, thanks McFlock for pointing out. Whoops.
It’s not a supplement, it is classed as a medicine as it is not an essential nutrient.
?!?!
Sorry Robert, I’m having trouble understanding how you know that ever child’s bedside has a bottle of coke beside it. In all my years I’ve never seen such a thing. I’m not saying it’s impossible – but I’ve never seen it.
This sounds suspiciously like like one of those unsubstantiated prejudices that certain right wingers like to bandy about, so blame can be apportioned, and the rest of us are no longer needing to be concerned.
Like, every bene has a SkyTV dish…
Every every wastes their money on pokies…
Every bene blah blah blah.
Just ask Rankin, McCoskie, and Tamaki. They’ll provide the rest.
Ken Perrott has put his case. Let’s debate that rather than raise bogeymen that are easy to splash about, but can’t be substantiated.
Great article. I can’t believe that the anti-fluoride crowd get air time. Frankly I can’t believe that the Hamilton council were suckered in to giving in.
elections coming up and they hit on the “kick it to central government” dodge.
Nothing scares politicians like the possibility of nutbars at public meetings screaming that you poisoned the water supply. Squeakiest wheel gets the grease.
Facts are facts. Fluoride is a poison, and the dose argument doesn’t work because fluoride accumulates in the body.
Oh you’re a chemist and a biologist and a bush lawyer and an orgone technologist? When do you sleep?
He doesn’t. That’s when they take away your liberties and put spiders in your brain.
Not if you have the right connections mate 😉
Everything you can absorb is a poison in excess. Here’s some other poisons: Vitamin A, Vitamin D, iron, zinc, selenium, copper, magnesium, sodium, chloride, iodide, oxygen, water. You can kill yourself by overdosing with the above and any other substance you can absorb. On the other hand all the above-listed substances are essential for survival, too.
The most toxic substance known to man is Botulinum A. Know what the active ingredient in Botox is? Botulinum A. That’s right, at a low enough dose, the most toxic substance known to man can be safely injected as a cosmetic agent to smooth out wrinkles.
The first and last rule of toxicology is that coined by Paracelsus: The dose makes the poison.
Fluoride is readily absorbed but is also excreted over time. It is not considered to be a bioaccumulative poison like, say DDE.
Actually it is bioaccumulative like DDT.
http://withonebreath.wordpress.com/2008/10/30/fluoride-is-a-bioaccumulative-poison-1800-professionals-call-for-end-of-water-fluoridation/
Fluoride is a Bioaccumulative Poison; 1,800 Professionals Call for End of Water Fluoridation
Studies also show that only about 50% of the fluoride that is ingested (through drinking fluoridated water or swallowing toothpaste) is excreted by the body, which suggests that fluoride, like many toxic chemicals, is bioaccumulative. Scientists have found that fluoride accumulates in the brain, kidneys and bones, which can lead to lower IQ, behavioral/hormonal problems, tooth decay and bone cancer.
lol
also from your source page:
Fluoridation is a communist plot to keep people docile while the revolution happens, y’all.
No wait, it’s capitalists buying a worldwide conspiracy of public health professionals to falsify data just so they can sell waste to local authorities.
No wait, it’s the powers that be wanting to make the population more docile so that they don’t revolt.
Maybe it’s just a plan to fiendishly help people keep their own teeth healthy, for longer.
So is it bioaccumulative or not McFlock? Couldn’t quite tell from your response to UT’s assertion that it is.
Well, yes – in the teeth. A good thing. And at high exposures, bad in the teeth and bad in the skeleton.
As to the rest of the body, I have no idea, even with UT’s assertion. The lack of any demonstrated harm associated with fluoridation at NZ levels suggests to me that if it does occur, it does not occur to a level levels that causes detectable harm.
But UT (who has previously struck me as being a complete nutbar) linking to a site that claims fluoridation is a communist conspiracy suggests to me that the idea is akin to “cabbages growing on Mars”: there might be cabbages growing on Mars, but I’d need much more than that level of evidence before I countenance it as a reasonable possibility. Just another piece of idiotic crap on the internet, as far as I’m concerned.
“a site that claims fluoridation is a communist conspiracy”
I have a filter, which means I don’t read that part of the argument 🙂
I’ve generally found that discovering such claims (e.g. “naz1s did it” or “commies did it” or “illuminati did it”) from a source behoves one to carefully check every other claim that source makes before mentioning the alleged fact in public.
Indeed, given the nature of the vague (if any) referencing, and the circular referencing that goes around lobbying sites, it’s actually less effort to look at the claim from scratch, a lot of the time. The folk with accurate claims usually don’t have a problem citing original sources.
🙄
UT, do you ever look for information that will contradict your notions?
It’s embarrassingly easy to find.
We seem to be back on baloney detection 101.
“The first and last rule of toxicology is that coined by Paracelsus: The dose makes the poison.”
That’s true Roy. But the first rule of medicine is first do no harm. And the first rule of holistic health is don’t do things in isolation (or more likely, don’t pretend you can do things in isolation). The MoH can make a judgement call about the relative risk of harm for the population, but they can’t for individuals.
I tend to think the relative risk of fluoride is lowish. But the problem is when you combine that with all the other chemical exposures we have not adapted to yet and set that alongside the health of the individual, including their genetic predispositions and environment. What does toxicology say about that?
…chemical exposures we have not adapted to yet…
If they are so damaging how come life expectancy has increased so much?
Are you asking because you don’t know (I suspect you don’t), or because you think you know and are being a smart arse?
The reason life expectancy has increased is largely due to improvements in diet, potable water, and shelter (warmth, dryness and lack of overcrowding). Those three things alone will give people better immunity (not getting sick in the first place) and better recovery from illness that would otherwise kill them, as well as some direct protection from disease (clean, potable water).
But alongside that increased life expectancy we have increased chronic illness. We can have an argument now about whether that increase is because we’re living longer or getting more sick without dying, or both (I’d guess both).
If I get time later I’ll try and dig up some analysis of the cocktail effect and how many chemicals we are exposed to that our great grandparent’s either weren’t or were but in much lower or less frequent doses. And bear in mind, it’s the cocktail that is as much as issue as the individual chemicals.
There’s no need to be so defensive, it was a genuine enquiry. Given historic levels of exposure to for example, lead, you are going to be hard pressed to show that we are more exposed to hazard these days, but I guess it’s possible.
I guess I see a plethora of comments where people are being smart arses, it’s hard to pick the genuine ones now sometimes.
Lead… I think you missed the point. I don’t have the figures to hand, but it’s something like this: we’re now exposed to x thousand new chemicals that we weren’t before, either entirely new, or levels or frequency. This is such an obvious truth I’m surprised I have to explain it (other than coming up with an actual figure). Think about all the agricultural chemicals developed since ww2 for instance, compared to what rural people were exposed to before that for thousands of years. Or drugs, or food additives, or plastics, or anti-fungal/anti-microbials/disinfectants, antibiotics, petroleum products, synthetic dyes, paints, resins/glues, cleaning products, I could make a pretty long list…
You’re choosing to medicate 4.4M people with a substance which is known to change both bone and central nervous system cell function, in order that we get just one less filled, decayed or missing tooth per 300 or so kids?
And when you break down the data, it’ll be obvious that most of those bad teeth belong to a very definite subsection of the population who could be very tightly targetted?
No thanks.
lucky that’s not the case then.
/facepalm
ffs, I linked to papers refuting those claims, that clearly stated low concentrations of fluoride have no statistically link to negative health outcomes, other than very minor dental fluorosis when over 1.0mg/L. Over 1.5mg/L then there are minor drops in IQ, with other more serious issues occurring as concentration towards and over 3.0mg/L as indicated in studies of populations drinking from naturally fluoridated or polluted water supplies.
To help remind you, info starts here:
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-19062013/#comment-651015
And if you don’t accept the conclusions of the papers linked to, I suggest firmly you actually bother to tell us what’s wrong with the methodology, instead of going “lol-science-has-been-wrong!!!111!” like you’ve done in that thread.
Yeah I screwed the magnitude. When you feed fluoridated water to 25 kids, just one more of them will end up caries free.
Does fluoridated water do anything for adult teeth? Why is all the data for kids who are largely going to get new teeth anyway?
five years old and year 8 (I believe that’s around 13 if my math is correct, i.e. baby teeth gone). Gets both tooth sets.
Ever see any data on older people? Say 18 year olds?
read the MoH link provided.
2009 Oral health survey. Chapter 6: “Protective factors”.
The answer to the question is “yes”.
The really scarey thing isn’t how many fillings the kids get. It is how much more parents have to pay for major dental surgery. This hits low income families hard.
I understand it has been proven that dental costs for a population go up eight times more than the money saved by a council when it stops fluoridating. (reference anyone?) It would appear that legislation should be quickly passed requiring any council that stops fluoridating water should immediately set up a system for subsidising dental bills for its ratepayers that must spend eight times per annum on what was spent of the fluoride salt added to the water supply. Surely the Gnats would do this as they love making Councils jump through hoops.
Anyone who argues that adding the fluoride to water is medication doesn’t understand that fluoride is natural and our ancestors evolved using much higher fluoride levels in their water than the water running off our highly leached soils in NZ. (Except for fresh North Island volcanic ash – that has enough fluoride in it to kill sheep which eat ash with grass).
Let’s do a reality check first shall we? Does unfluoridated Christchurch have 8x the dentists per capita as fluoridated Wellington?
Do unfluoridated Christchurch dentists make 8x the money that fluoridated Wellington dentists make?
Please give me some examples of which ancestral water ways or bodies of water in which ancestral countries you are talking about.
Asbestos and arsenic are “natural” too.
Doesn’t follow – basically Lloyd’s assertion was that increase in treatment cost is 8x the cost of the sacks of fluoride put into the water supply, not that the treatment costs will increase eightfold.
That having been said, I agree that pretty much all his assertions need citations.
Ahhh ok.
Wrong. Dental care is free in NZ up to the age of 18. Any child that needs treatment that cannot be carried out by the dental therapist from the school dental service ( e.g. root canal fillings etc.) is referred to a dentist and all dental work is completed by the dentist at no cost to the parent. Fact.
Those graphs all show that children in unfloridated areas teeth are improving at a faster rate than those in floridated areas. How does the blogger explain that?
Perhaps you should look at *when* fluoridation started in those areas and how widespread it is, what the improvement in dentistry was, what changed diets there are, and how many countries were dropped from this pissant cherry picking graph. Basically it is crap. Pure unadulterated lying crap.
Basically whoever did the graph you are referring to obviously had a lobotomy a long time ago because all it screams to me is someone doing a Nick Smith – and lying with numbers.
Maybe fluoridation simply isn’t as influential a factor in dental health as compared to the 1950’s when it was first introduced, when countries were far poorer, dental education quite primitive and fluoride toothpastes far less used. (Fluoride toothpastes only started achieving major acceptance in the 1960’s and 1970’s is my understanding)
My view is that people are carrying on with a decades old assumption that fluoridation is a “big gun” in reducing caries, but actually it is an assumption which is increasingly less and less true.
If you want a better more robust chart lprent look at p35 of this OECD report.
http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/download/8109111ec012.pdf?expires=1371811853&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=52AA70341415CEE12AEE07ABAB4F6008
The top 10 countries for child dental health are typically European and fluoridation free (and even the UK only has a small minority of its water supply fluoridated). Those top 10 countries have also typically had larger improvements in dental health amongst children even though they were already doing well, when compared to fluoridated countries like Australia, NZ and USA.
The US and Australia, who introduced widespread fluoridation early on in the 1950’s, not only have so-so child dental health results by OECD data, but they also have mediocre (US) to lacklustre (Australia) improvements in child dental health.
The anti-fluoridation poster child is of course Germany, which has been totally fluoridation free for decades. (West Germany since at least the 1950’s and East Germany since at least re-unification).
Germany not only has the best dental health for children of all OECD countries, but has clearly also had the best dental health improvement out of all OECD countries. 100% fluoridation free.
PS in certain high caries, low socioeconomic communities where use of fluoridated toothpastes is poor, I think that water fluoridation could be quite helpful. But pumping it out to 4.4M people because of those specific communities it not something I would do.
associated with 8% more kids being caries free and mean DMFT being cut by about a third is a pretty “big gun”, public health-wise.
But what public oral health initiatives do we need to copy from Gremany to replicate their resuts? Other than “no fluoridation”, of course.
Nah the recent advantage is more like 4% to 5% to fluoridation, not 8%. And like I said, if you are dealing with a population with mediocre dental health, that’s where we are in the middle of the OECD road, then fluoridation will seem more useful.
OK well we start with no fluoridation, like most of the other high dental performing OECD countries.
just going by the data in the post.
But your approach to the public health question is a bit odd – a plan to achieve world class oral health across the population starts by eliminating the thing that is associated with (by your estimate) 4-5% more kids being caries free?
fluoridation is associated with middling performance in the OECD dental health stats mate
countries in the top 10 by absolute results and by dental health improvement over the decades tend to have zero or low usage of water fluoridation
the first country to introduce widespread fluoridation and which still uses it very widely (USA) has experienced mediocre dental health improvement compared to non users of fluoridation.
edit that OECD link times out
google “OECD dental health among children 2009” to find the report pdf
Okay, so the only reason Germans have superlative pearlers is because they don’t fluoridate. Then why do non-fluoridated areas in NZ have shittier teeth than fluoridated areas?
well, actually all areas of NZ have way shittier teeth than unfluoridated Germany, 90% unfluoridated UK etc.
It’s best practice in child dental health we need to be looking at and NZ doesn’t do it.
Well, sticking with Germany for a moment, I notice two things:
fluoridated areas in NZ are closer to Germany than the non-fluoridated areas; and
the OECD report had Germany with 77 dentists per 100k population, while NZ had 47 dentists per 100k pop.
And your first public health initiative is to remove fluoridation rather than, say, upping the number of dentists.
There are lower levels of all sorts of trace elements in NZ waters and soils compared to a continental environment. We are after all a set of islands that have spent the last 45 million of years of separation from Antarctica twisting on the edge of some sea plates and bobbing up and down under the waves.
We don’t get the types of basaltic intrusions and vast ancient alluvial plains that are so common in other land masses. Instead we have the wastage of the plains derived from metamorphosed sea beds and subducting seafloor rock regurgitated from volcanoes. NZ is pretty poor in quite a few minerals that humans and other animals from richer mineral environments evolved in.
Selenium for instance through much of the mid-north island, and throughout much of the country. There are serious iron deficiencies in some parts of the country. There are parts of the country with some quite low calcium levels. Other parts where there are deficiencies in potassium.
Fluoride and other fluorines are one of the known things with low levels in NZ compared to a continental landmass of Germany and the ancient basaltic mountains throughout the english and scottish island.
Are you putting that option on the table, McFlock?
lprent – cheers.
Every option is on the table.
But my point is that making the first step the removal of an interventon associated with clear benefits is just obtuse. And if you weren’t so obsessed about the supposed corruption of your precious bodily fluids, then you are the one who would have looked at factors beyond fluoridation.
Every option is on the table McFlock? As long as you approve of it?
I never asked for fluoridation to be removed from any city’s water supply McFlock.
And unlike you, I’m not here to tell people what to swallow.
compare with:
And you reckon you’re not trying to make me swallow something unpalatable.
By the way, how do you measure the toothpaste onto your brush? At 1ppm, you might accidentally double your daily intake if you just did it by hand.
What do you care about how much toothpaste I use McFlock? F apparently has no risks associated with it.
I care that a scientific illiterate who can’t handle basic math wants to cancel an effective public health intervention because of, well, “oooo water shouldn’t have chemicals in it” or somesuch bollocks, just as long as they think they’re okay personally.
Epitomised in your comment here:
And you have the gall to call someone else a “stuck up little shit” when they call you on your idiocy. Or maybe you’re just the sort of dickhead who thinks that “google” makes them an “autodidact” and substitutes for an “education”.
Either way it’s late, I’m tired, and the Dunning-Kruger waves emanating from your keyboard are giving me a headache.
You seem to have mistaken yourself as my thesis supervisor or as my boss. You are neither. Fuck off.
That water shouldn’t have added chemicals in it is the starting point for discussion, I agree.
LOL mate. Shame that 50% of the NZ population don’t get fluoridated water and almost all of the EU, including several european states who have removed fluoride from their water since the 1970’s.
Apparently they think your judgement is shit, but I suppose you believe that they are “scientifically illiterate” as well, making you what, the superior intellect?
I’ll repeat it again. Fluoridation is the hallmark of mediocre to averaging performance in OECD dental statistics. Suck it up and accept it, slowcoach.
Well thank fuck you’ve finally accepted that the way NZ is doing things is half pie, and that water fluoridation is not only completely unnecessary if you do things properly, you can often get significantly better results as shown in Europe. You’re not thick after all.
So you don’t understand quotation marks, either. 🙄
I thought they used fluoridated salt in France and Germany much like we iodise salt – not everyone gets their fluoride from the water – some places (including the sea) have a natural fluoride level higher in their water than we have in NZ – some places actually need to reduce it
Indeed Paul. Check out comment 7 below. Also in some countries you can get fluoridated milk.
So helping specific communities at minimum cost and zero risk to anyone else is not something you would do. Fair enough. Misjudged you. nigh nigh
Don’t be a stuck up little shit.
Fluoridate their water if you like, after all they are the populations for which it would do the most good and that is what I said above. Fluoridate all 4.4M of us to get to those specific populations? No thanks. I get well more than enough fluoride daily from 3x use of Colgate Total.
And in Europe they prefer to make fluoridated salt available for people to buy.
You do know that F increases the movement behaviour of brain cancer cells, as well as altering the metabolic behaviour of bone cells in ways which aren’t fully understood right? What else don’t you know about how F affects body cells?
Yep fair enough. Sorry, didn’t realise your expertise was right up there with the established medico-scientific world. Can’t chat sorry, early start tomorrow – incidentally Colonel, not trying to be impertinent or anything, but how many signatures have you have personally got for the asset sales petition? (no worries, I can imagine how demanding a constant Shearer-bashing campaign can be, they also serve who only bitch and moan etc….)
LOL, pissing contests are for 12 year olds buddy.
btw, if Labour had had any leadership guts, it could’ve stopped these asset sales 12 months ago.
Yep, agree. Relying on fluoridation may have made health authorities lazy and cheap about ensuring good dental hygiene in the population via equitable and affordable access to dental services, dental hygiene education, etc, etc…
But, which do we do first? end fluoridation or improve access to dental care needs? or do both together?
Typically NZ isn’t it? – ending an effective public health measure before other measures to improve dental health are well established.
right on Rose – but it’s not all Nz, just a handful of lazy gutless councillors and assorted dorks.
It’s so sad for your world view that after 50 years, only 50% of the country is fluoridated. Good luck for the next 50 years.
PS good to see you respect local democracy, but I’m sure you know better than the people from up on high.
Councillors are the wrong people to decide if fluoridation should cease. Increases in the cost of fixing the teeth of children comes out of the health budget, not theirs. The whole decision-making process and how to meet the needs of the population requires assessment, imo of course. Hospitals have a hard enough time as it is with emergency dental health problems – adults and children.
Yes because we want the country run by unaccountable appointed technocrats and not by elected officials? Think of the precedent there for a minute. To override the decision of the Christchurch City Council, which has very recently turned down fluoridation again, and say have a govt hand picked panel make the decision on local water instead. I’m not sure we want to go there (again).
Germany and the UK have the best dental performance of the entire OECD. Germany has not fluoridated for over two decades (and even then it was East Germany), UK has a fluoridation rate of only 11%.
Oh look here you go, the UK Government is going to take the decision away from elected representatives by legislation, so you have your wish
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-180373/Anger-fluoride-plans.html
The way i heard it the coucil has not listened to the community on this issue. I don’t think for a moment that the community should have technocrats run their lives and btw i support the view that there are measures other than fluoridation that may improve dental health in developed countries. This is why the whole issue needs revisiting.
The reason i think local councils shouldn’t make the fluoride decision is because they don’t wear the costs of bad teeth. Maybe local health boards should decide… They can get the latest best practice info and do have a vested interest in the outcomes and are elected officials.
“Although the prevalence of caries varies between countries, levels everywhere have fallen greatly in the past three decades, and national rates of caries are now universally low. This trend has occurred regardless of the concentration of fluoride in water or the use of fluoridated salt, and it probably reflects use of fluoridated toothpastes and other factors, including perhaps aspects of nutrition.”
SOURCE: Cheng KK, et al. (2007). Adding fluoride to water supplies. British Medical Journal 335(7622):699-702
DMFT (Decayed, Missing & Filled teeth) Status for 12 year olds by Country
– World Health Organization Data (2012) –
Country DMFTs Year Status*
Denmark 0.7 2008 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
Germany 0.7 2005 No water fluoridation.67% salt fluoridation.
England 0.7 2009 11% water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
Netherlands* 0.8 2002 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
Switzerland** 0.82 2009 No water fluoridation.88% salt fluoridation.
Belgium 0.9 2009-10 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
Sweden 0.9 2008 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
Australia 1.0 2003-2004 80% water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
Austria 1.0 2002 No water fluoridation.6% salt fluoridation.
Ireland 1.1 2002 100% water fluoridation in study.No salt fluoridation.
Italy 1.1 2004 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
United States 1.19 1999-2004 64% water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
Finland 1.2 2006 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
France 1.2 2006 No water fluoridation.65% salt fluoridation.
Spain 1.3 2004 11% water fluoridation.10% salt fluoridation.
Greece 1.35 2005-06 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
Iceland 1.4 2005 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
New Zealand 1.4 2009 61% water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
Japan 1.7 2005 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
Norway 1.7 2004 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
* The Hague | ** Zurich
Tooth Decay data from:
World Health Organization Collaborating Centre for Education, Training, and Research in Oral Health, Malmö University, Sweden. http://www.mah.se/CAPP/
Salt fluoridation data from:
Gotzfried F. (2006). Legal aspects of fluoride in salt, particularly within the EU. Schweiz Monatsschr Zahnmed 116:371-75.
You can’t argue with people’s psychological belief in their own entrenched orthodoxy…even as that entrenched orthodoxy is shown to be more and more fragile, they will fight it harder and harder. This is the very definition of the term “die hard”. It is literally an argument against fundamentalists who cannot recognise that is what they are.
btw nice find.
This mechanism is proven in several studies
What this particular graph shows is that there is obviously NO effect evident from having water fluoridated,
As CV points out you can shove ‘the facts’ in front of peoples faces and they are still totally blind, how do the proponents for adding fluoride to water address the fact that Iceland with the same amount of dental caries as a % of population as New Zealand does not add fluoride to it’s water,
The fact is MOST of the countries in this study have better dental outcomes than little old New Zealand wether or not they add fluoride or not,
So, obviously those who are fixated upon ”the Health Department says it’s good for us” therefor it is argument are not going to be swayed by ‘actual facts’ and as exhibited in the comment below some of them will actually demand that EVERYONE is compulsorily dosed with the stuff, (fluoride), despite what this study clearly shows, which to anyone with half a functional, (brain that is), putting fluoride in the water makes not one iota of difference to dental outcomes the world over,
Here’s a quote from the Wikipedia,”The greatest cause of tooth decay and cavities is by the production of acid by bacterial fermentation of the food debris accumulated on the tooth surface”, unquote,
Anyone want to start an argument about the above??? this is what we do know about tooth decay,
(1)The disease Amelogenesis Imperfecta (imperfect tooth enamel) occurs in the population at a rate of 1 in 718 to 1 in 14000, this is a disease which does not allow the enamel on teeth to fully form,
Overlay the statistics for caries/tooth decay on the FACTS above and what have you got, essentially you have a corresponding number of people with imperfectly formed enamel on their teeth through a disease that adding fluoride to the water supply does not address as you do the number of people with caries/tooth decay,
Consider this, tooth enamel begins to breakdown when exposed to an acidic enviroment, the correct scientific term for this is demineralization, this occurs at a PH level of 5.5,
Wellington’s Te Marua water storage lakes and treatment deliver a water supply to household taps with a PH level of ???? 7.0-8.5,
On the one hand Wellington’s water supply is delivering water with a PH level that science says will strip teeth of enamel thus allowing cavities/tooth decay to occur and then adding fluoride in the hope that this will re-mineralize the tooth enamel, as the study above clearly shows it apparently achieves nothing,
What is the best method of preventing tooth decay, CV above has pointed this out also, brush em 3 times a day or better still brush em 20 minutes after eating anything,
My opinion, along with food in schools we need tooth-paste and brush’s along with the continual education of the kids to brush after eating…
If they kneel at the altar and take the holy sacrament, you shall too
That’s socialism for you, echoing political doctrine instead of applying reason and common sense.
Yes, the medical and dental professions, those hotbeds of Socialism.
Or the US health system, that hotbed of anti-socialism that works oh so well.
You see what happens when you encourage people to use reason and common sense, UT? They only go and completely refute your argument.
Only in your deluded imagination, OAK
beg to differ
Got a substantive rebuttal, then, oh embodiment of vacuity?
“Consider this, tooth enamel begins to breakdown when exposed to an acidic enviroment, the correct scientific term for this is demineralization, this occurs at a PH level of 5.5,
Wellington’s Te Marua water storage lakes and treatment deliver a water supply to household taps with a PH level of ???? 7.0-8.5,”
Ummmm, are you saying that 7-8.5 are really acidic?
No not at all, i am simply pointing out 2 facts vis a vis tooth decay and the level of PH at which tooth enamel will begin to break down,
i have not looked yet to see what level the PH of rainwater is as it falls from the sky, or what the optimum PH level is for human consumption,
i do have a general idea that a PH of 7-9 leads to a elongated life-span for iron pipes but have yet to ascertain if such elongation applies to the human life span….
Okay, you do realise that 7-8.5 isn’t acidic at all don’t you?
Stupid question, plainly you don’t……
Less than 7 on the scale is acidic, 7 is neutral on the scale, above 7 is alkaline.
It’s a log scale, so the numbers close to 7 are fairly neutral eg 6 is only very mildly acidic, and 8 is only very mildly alkaline.
But once you start getting down to 2, 1, 0.5, you’re talking stomach acid level then very quickly serious battery acid burns.
Great to see Kevin Hague and Annette King both strongly in favour of fluoridation. Hopefully they will have the courage to do something about it!
Personally, I thinking passing the authority to the DHB’s is probably the best idea. It would very swiftly lead to almost complete fluoridation across the country.
Do DHBs have the water processing engineers and budget to install and operate fluoridation equiment?
No?
Well, this will be interesting then, won’t it.
For all you other fluoride types. I’m quietly betting that the FDA never required full medicines safety testing on the fluorosilicate additive, because fluoridation first started in the 1950s and they didn’t do double blind placebo trials then.
Let’s see the trial data if it exists.
“Do DHBs have the water processing engineers and budget to install and operate fluoridation equiment?
No?”
They would delegate all that to the water “providers”.
One of the benifits of fluoridation is that is very very cheap. So yes I’m sure the DHBs could fund fluoridation.
On your second point, it is logistically impossible to do a randomised controlled trial of water fluoridation because you can’t randomise where people live!
don’t need that detail of evidence just go ahead and do it in other words.
It’s not cheap if it doesn’t do what it’s supposed to.
On that basis, we couldn’t definatively say that smoking causes lung cancer, as no randomised controlled trials were ever done!
Yawn, yeah 10% of those who die of lung cancer are smokers, what caused lung cancer in the other 90%,
Not smoking perhaps…
Are denying that smoking causes lung cancer?
Nope not denying at this point in history, just questioning…
Smoking tobacco causes 80–90% of lung cancers. Nonsmokers account for 10–15% of lung cancer cases, and these cases are often attributed to a combination of genetic factors, radon gas, asbestos, and air pollution including second-hand smoke.
You can find the references here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lung_cancer
Yes my bad i got that slightly wrong, the question is that if smoking caused lung cancer why do only 10% of smokers get it,
Wouldn’t be anything to do with a genetic predisposition would it???
http://www..science20.com>medicine>cancerresearch>newsarticles
‘ . . . only 10% of smokers’???????!!!!!!!!
You’re kidding, right?
probably not. Heart disease is the big killer, but lung cancer is the biggest condition that would be pretty much unheard of without smoking.
10% of smokers seems unbearably high
Kidding, no not at all, if simply smoking causes lung cancer then everyone who smokes would get lung cancer,
If as the fanatics keep trying to brainwash you with ‘tobacco is a poison which kills half its users’, why does it only kill half the users,
The Health Department simply add numbers they wouldn’t have a fucking clue, if a smoker dies of heart disease, smoking killed them is it as far as Health departments are concerned,
that’s just simplistic bullshit used to brainwash the already simple….
That was my GP’s contention some years back when she told me emphysema was in my future, rather than lung cancer. Can’t remember what percentage, but she said studies showed genetic predisposition was the major factor in smoking-related lung cancer.
Here’s a link to an interview that Dr Richard Hurt, the director of the Mayo Clinic Dependence Centre gave on Kim Hill’s Saturday Morning Radio NZ program.
He says 1 in 5 smokers will die of smoking related causes.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/20110219
Tamati bro, what is your agenda, or is it simply that you’re not able to understand your position is flawed?
I recall you said you were well read/informed on this topic, seems you have been drinking too much loaded water, eh!
Whats your response on Mike S (7), above ?
Do you have a preference of how dental health might be approached in NZ, free checks for kids, the less well off etc, or is it simply that mass medication, ticks all the boxes, for you?
1. What’s my agenda?
A desire to improve the health of the nations children, a desire to reduce health inequalities and a desire that good quality science is used in public policy. And um … world peace.
2. I was bought up in Christchurch, studied in Otago and have be medicated against my will in Auckland for the past 3 years.
3. In reponse to Mike. There are multiple variables which contribute to dental caries, you can’t assess the effects of one without accounting for these other variables.
4. If I was in charge of dental health in children what would I do?
-Increase funding to dental nurses throughout the country, so they can be involved with their school communities and can upskill their abillities.
-Implement a tax on soft drinks and ban food advertising during childrens programming.
-Reinstate food standards for school canteens.
-Mandatory fluoridation for all water supplies.
And a few others.
BTW Dental checks are already free for under 18s
You were brought up in Christchurch, have you got really bad teeth…
No, I don’t.
I have good teeth despite not drinking fluoridated water as a child.
So if Christchurch 5 year olds have slightly better teeth as far as caries go than the rest of New Zealand without having fluoride added to the water supply why on earth would you want to add the stuff…
Beholden to prior tradition and beliefs. (Simply observe the righteous indignation and self superiority from some pro-fluoridation persons).
Lolz, i am going to take a break and converse with the bricks in my chimney, they seem to respond better to ‘facts’….
As I said before there are multiple variables which cause caries, you can’t analyse one in isolation without accounting for the others. Hence why simply comparing nations or DHB regions tells you nothing.
It tells you that fluoridation may not be that influential a factor, especially if the top three countries in the OECD for dental health have fluoridation rates of 11% and less.
You can’t tell anything definatively without accounting for the other variables.
Is that true? Apparently some here are definitive enough of their beliefs to advocate for medicating everyone en mass, compulsarily.
as opposed to the patently incompetent who won’t let that stop them entrenching their opinion.
+ 1
OK, lets bring this a little closer to home seeing that some are unconvinced by the international comparisons of tooth decay events in fluoridated and non-fluoridated countries,
Christchurch, the countries second largest city, (am sure most of us have heard of the place, small town somewhere in the South), has NEVER fluoridated it’s water supply, yes NEVER fluoridated it’s water supply,
So, Christchurch having never fluoridated it’s water supply must have the worst frigging teeth in the country right???,
WRONG, and i quote, ”Oral health status data is collected by the CDHB,(Canterbury), community dental service and reported to the Ministry of Health for children in year 1 and 8, (5 years and 12-13 years),
Figure 1 shows Canterbury DHB having a slightly greater % of children caries free, (tooth decay), at age 5 compared to New Zealand children over-all,
Shit kids sorry to burst the bubble, maybe the Canterbury DHB is skewing their figures so as to receive LESS health ministry funding for oral health,
The CDHB report goes on to say that children 12-13 years have also shown a higher % of caries free until 2010 where for some reason,(earthquake related???), that % reversed by 8%,
http://www.healthchristchurch.org.nz/media/…childadolescentoralhealth.PDF
So, my opinion is that the Canterbury DHB figures clearly point to the ‘fact’ that adding fluoride to water supply’s is simply f**king bulls**t as far as dental outcomes are concerned,
But don’t let the ‘facts’ get in the way, give them all a dose of something, anything today…
Must bow to the time honoured ritual of fluoridating water, the power of holy water thus made cannot be resisted by ordinary skepticism. If you’re not with us, you must be against us.
Christchurch also has one of the highest incidences of Irritable Bowel Syndrome in the world, what’s causing that then? It’s simplistic and scientifically illiterate to use Christchurch as a single example. For all I know it could be that Christchurch’s DHB is really good at dental hygine, or that Christchurch’s anomolous demographics favour oral hygine fetishism, or the Tooth Fairy really likes the place. Dude, do you even science?
Since you just made a whole lot of hypothetical shit up and brought in the irrelevancy which is IBS, do you?
Pay attention to the evidence Pop, even when it doesn’t suit your belief systems.
plank out of your own eye, and all that.
LOLZ, this has to be a comic comment right???, if fluoridated water gives better dental outcomes as it’s proponents claim then the non-fluoridation of Christchurch water in terms of the claimed benefit of adding fluoride to water would have to lead to Christchurch children having worse dental out-comes than areas that do fluoridate,
You don’t need a PHD to understand the simple facts as stated by the Canterbury DHB,
Your spray of Christchurch may do this that or the other to achieve its slightly better dental out-comes for year 5 kids is really really ‘scientific’ isn’t it…
Has someone posted the stats for Chch?
OK, the obvious next port of call in this debate would have to be the question, ”what are the perceived health ‘risks’/ ‘bad outcomes’ of adding fluoride to the water,
IF specific health outcomes are suggested from having prolonged exposure to fluoride in the water supply then we need compare those specific health outcomes with the data from say Wellington or Auckland with the data from Christchurch to gain some understanding of any differences in the specific % difference in any particular instance of bad health out-comes suggested as resulting from the dosing of water supplies with fluoride,
It may take a bit of digging to ascertain the true nature of any specific negative health out-comes from such use of chemical fluoride, right now i have an open mind as to whether or not there are such negative health outcomes to be found in the data…
One part is around the medical ethics, civil rights and risks of ignoring the need for consent to treatment in any such programme of compulsory mass medication.
Visible dental fluorosis occurs in 10% to 50% of people in areas with fluoridated water.
In the USA approx 41% of adolescents demonstrate excess body fluoride content via visible dental fluorosis. Currently this is seen as a largely cosmetic issue, but in my view it represents metabolic fluoride overload.
Oh, in your view?
Lol
the MoH survey (p172) has lower rates of fluoridosis for every severity level (except “questionable”) in people living in areas with fluorodated water than non-fluorodated.
Yep, by CV’s logic we should fluoridate all the water in NZ to lower the rates of dental fluorosis and “metabolic fluoride overload”.
Oh McFlock, drink up.
Had it in my porridge this morning.
Care to address the fact? You seemed to imply that fluoridation caused increased fluorosis in the US, but the NZ data seems to suggest that at MoH-recommended levels, (to use a technical term) you’re full of shit. Definitely something to do with alternative sources – maybe people really worried about fluoridation tend to drink more cups of tea.
Nah enough mate. Previous to the last day or two of posts I was mildly though mostly unconsciously pro-fluoride in my positioning.
After being forced to review a whole lot of material and arguments, what I recognise now is that internationally, a heavily fluoridated country like NZ fares no better in dental health than its peers. I’ve learnt that many advanced countries after introducing it have long pulled fluoridation from their populations. I’ve also learnt that in the OECD the top few performing countries either do not, or barely, fluoridate, their water supplies. In the case of the UK 11% or so of water is fluoridated despite most UK water naturally having F levels of less than 1ppm. And in NZ, fluoridation means roughly one more caries free kid out of 25. Not bad, but just so so.
As always, participating on the Std has been a lovely learning experience.
Some countries stopped.
some coutries don’t.
Most of the Uk doesn’t.
And a few thousand kids would have more caries-ridden teeth if you got your way.
That’s the entirety of what you’ve learned?
Pearls before swine…
lol dude
Most of UK doesn’t fluoridate
And they top OECD performance for child dental health, way ahead of NZ which fluoridates lots.
therefore, if we remove fluoridation we will have the best teeth in the world? 🙄
Great article. Thanks
Fluorodization is an involuntary dosing of the masses with a medical treatment that disproportionately benefits a minority that is hidden from most of us and whose care is the responsibility of others.
Objectors have a point. It’s the same point that Margaret Thatcher was making when she said that ‘there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families’.
Not quite. You seem to be confusing medical consent rights with libertarianism. Medical ethics are a social justice issue in the same way that the community taking responsibility for the more vulnerable is.
Myself, and many of the others I see objecting to fluoridation of water supplies, believe that public funds should be used to target children at risk of dental problems. We just think it should be done a different way. Myself, I’d like to see something similar to the public health stop smoking approach, whereby there is a focus on what creates good oral health (diet, hygiene practices), and over time different strategies are used: legislation, education, health promotion etc. The reason I prefer this is that it has positive flow on effects for general health, not just preventing cavities.
Fluoridation costs an estimated $0.99 per person-year on the average in the US.
It is one of the few public health strategies that saves more money than it costs.
So? That might be relevant if the ‘saved’ funds were being spent on health promotion, but they’re not. (and what are the NZ savings not the US ones?).
You were equating people objecting to fluoridation with Thatcher. I pointed out the flaw in that argument. Care to respond to the points I raised?
Ken Perrott has shown that fluorodization of the water supply works.
It’s effective, it’s certain and it’s cost effective.
That’s the point of the article.
His figures support the public economic argument for mass fluorodization.
That leaves the philosophical argument that mass fluorodization is an unethical intrusion by the state upon the rights of the individual to choose and that this right to choose goes hand in hand with the responsibility to choose wisely.
That’s a powerful argument, one that you’re buying into by advocating for education programs that will give individuals better information with which to make these important decisions.
Nah. A commentator above said that Christchurch’s dental performance was similar or better than the national average. And Christchurch has never fluoridated before.
I didn’t read all of Perrott’s article because it is hard for me to trust a scientist who cannot write a report without getting into the ‘our opponents are idiots” argument. Pretty much every report of this kind I have read, where a scientist is trying to debunk ‘nutters’, contains false logic and misses relevant points. I can’t be bothered with it, and to pretend that it is unbiased information, and without an agenda, is dishonest. I take Perrotts article as a good attempt to present his side of the argument as he sees it (and I’m sure much of the science is sounds, but that doesn’t mean the logic or how the science is used is), but fails in a number of aspects.
(likewise, I can’t be bothered reading much of the anti-flouridation lobby’s material for similar reasons).
I don’t accept that fluoridation works as effectively as claimed, and that it is without risk. I do think that it’s probably quite useful in some instances, and that the risk is relatively low compared to many other things we are exposed to. I don’t believe that city and district councils have any business medicating all their ratepayers via the water supply.
So your philosophical argument doesn’t follow. And your assertion that people against fluoridation are akin to Thatcher doesn’t stand.
Which brings me to another point. It’s possible that were fluoridation not available in NZ, then the MoH would have to take more health promotion action re oral health. Which is what they should be doing. The reliance on fluoride possible means that we are worse off overall healthwise.
If there were no fluoridation then the MoH would still have exactly the same level of funding. Every year funders&planners get together to prioritise programmes with clinicians, and they deny far more initiatives than clinicians want, from traditional programmes to promising pilot studies, purely on cost:likely benefit analysis. There would be no “more health promotion action re oral health”.
My perspective on the water supply is that if the municipality is providing a 99.99% pure water supply, and the only impurities are undetectable to consumers, provide a demonstrable association with health improvements for a significant portion of the population, have no detectable harm to consumers at those trace concentrations, and actually save in healthcare costs down the line… well, who could seriously object?
I wasn’t talking about MoH funding though.
And the reason that the MoH doesn’t take a proactive health promotion approach is because of the paradigm they work within, not because of funding.
Sheeezus weka you are on fire today.
🙂 I don’t know what’s gotten into me.
Funnily enough I was at a conference recently that consisted almost entirely of health promotion programmes from around the country, so I respectfully disagree.
Can you give some examples of what you mean by health promotion?
“Say Ahh” in Hawke’s Bay.
Wahakura and Pepi-pods
Mana Kidz (South Auckland)
Smokefree.
Every single leaflet in your local GP’s office.
I don’t know what the first three lines are.
Sorry if I offended you, I could be more tactful. My point, such as it was, is that mainstream health promotion is quite limited.
No worries. Sorry I was a bit terse – more just rattling the immediate ones off, more than anything else.
Say Ahh and manakidz are based aroung rheumatic fever swabbing and education.
Wahakure and pepipods are safe-sleep containers for babies, as well as some SUDI education stuff.
From my perspective it seems that there are lots of programmes, but most of them are highly targeted simply because the money isn’t there to roll them out country-wide with high profiles. A good exampe is the GP office – basically if someone has an issue, the doctor can deliver the additional information right there to only those who have that issue.
What would you regard as a “health promotion” project?
Very sound reasoning weka. It’s not the task of councils to medicate their ratepayers. And it’s not the same as other water treatments – eg chlorination, and flocculation. “Fluoridation” is done for “medical” reasons alone.
And I quite agree regarding the health promotion. Fluoridation is seen by the MoH as the number one arm of fighting tooth decay in this country – despite the fact that there are as many studies showing it to have little effect as there are to the contrary. Were that to be removed perhaps we might have a much more effective Oral Health programme directed at those who need it most.
The US is one of the most fluoridated nations on the planet, has a middling score in terms of OECD dental health, and one of the worst records in the OECD for dental health improvement. Like most areas, not an area to follow them in.
I’d be looking at their access to dental care, first
Absolutely. Their socialised free dental care for under 18s leaves us behind somewhat. It also covers teeth whitening and straightening (if you live in LA). 😉
less dentists per population than germany, too, though more than NZ
So what do all you Green Party evangelists make of Kevin Hague “strongly supporting” fluoridation?
Perhaps time to pass a policy at conference, putting him in his place?
Or have the party hierachy siezed power from the membership?
This is one of those issues that isn’t left v right but people who spend a little too much time on the net v those that accept the overwhelming scientific evidence thats been going for decades
That “overwhelming scientific evidence” you speak of must be why West Germany got rid of fluoridation in the 1950’s, and when they unified with East Germany more than 20 years ago, they told the East Germans to get rid of it too. And to this day, fluoridation of water is banned in Germany.
And I’m sure other countries add fluride to the water so whats your point?
That there is no “overwhelming scientific evidence” as evidenced by the very scientifically and technically capable Germans having chosen against water fluoridation for half a century, and you just made that shit up to sound good.
I’ll see your Germany and raise you a Hong Kong
I blame the brits
Water Filters don’t remove fluoride. So there really is no choice. Bottled water does not have it removed either.
Distillers are the only way to remove it, but then bring other issues (still trying to find answers to it).
Enough fluoride is delivered by brushing your teeth twice a day.
Personally, I’d rather have it removed, however, I can accept that in poorer places, it makes sense to add it to the water.
Quite surprised to see CV against this.
Where on earth have you stated your proposal before that I have come out against it? Come on man, get with the story.
I’m certainly not against targetted fluoridation of the water of specific communities which need it, especially on a limited timeframe (10 years or less) while other dental health improvement measures are undertaken.
However for a child who already brushes 2-3x per day with fluoride toothpaste, having fluoridated water as well is way too much and you can see it in fluorosis of the teeth (and probably bones, although you can’t see those…)
I only quickly skim read this thread as I’m a day late.
Correct, something I got as a kid. Spots on my teeth and nails from taking fluoride tablets on a farm (they tasted good :()
I did a whole lot of reading about a week ago on this as I just bought a distiller. From reading, it seems fuck all is even delivered by water to teeth anyway. Toothpaste has a much better effect.
It also only really has an effect on kids… so why bother?
Distillers are quite cool I must say. I’d be keen to find the exact facts on them though since there seems to be a lot of misinformation on the net.
Pretty much.
Yeah it’s weird. You medicate 4.4M people to try and make a (sometimes very) small difference to a bit over 1/10 of them.
I guess road safety ads targeted at youths shouldn’t be on national TV then, because most people who see them won’t be in the target audience.
At least you have the choice to turn the fucking ads off if you want to.
It’s called a “roof tank”.
Meh or just move to one of a couple of dozen NZ towns and cities which have got rid of fluoridation, or never introduced it to start with.
“It’s called a “roof tank”.”
Nice to see the collective responsibility argument fail.
How so? We’re talking about the people who are so outraged public money is spent on health advertising not marketed at them that they’ll turn the TV off rather than watch the ad.
No idea who you mean re TV ads.
I thought you were making the argument that people who don’t want fluoridated water could use rain water. Not everyone can afford to install a rain water tank (or run a water filter assuming that it works).
yeah, CV did a dodge again – he started by saying that fluoridation was bad because it exposes everybody but theoretically only heps a few. Same with ads.
Then he switches to whether you can “opt out” (turn the TV off) being the bad thing about it.
As for your argument re: the cost of rainwater: worrying about <1ppm fluoride is essentially a "first world problem" which I suggest is not the daily talk of the needy in NZ (more "how do we put stuff in the water in the pot to feed the kids"). I am sure that for those poor people for whom an undetectable-without-scientific-equipment, no-detectable-harm-but-definite-positive-association trace-element addition to their 99.9% pure water supply is at the forefront of their minds, alternative sources will present themselves. E.g., a bucket.
Please be clear. I never likened it to TV ads, but you did. And it’s not truly analogous because you don’t literally swallow the ad into your body.
but they’re putting thoughts into your braaaaaaiiiiiinnn!!!
Damned government – how do they know that the “ghost chips” ad won’t make people hungry and cause obesity in millions?
McFlock – a word in your ear, you’ll find it difficult to convince anti-vaccers, climate change deniers, anti-fluoridation activists etc.
All such groups know better than the world’s medical, public health and scientific communities. How so? the power of google, activist and denier websites.
true, but occasionally CV comes up with something useful. And it was definitely a wide-ranging discussion – got to look up a few articles in a field that’s only slightly overlaps my own. 🙂
Likewise the depression ones, the drink driving ones, the pay your fines ones.
Yeah because that’s the same as mass medication.
Also to note, I think the CDC (US) has just recommended lowering the dosage to 0.7 ppm as it has found we now get fluoride from many different sources.
Yep.
Also the “dosage” doesn’t take into account someone’s physical condition and size. You can imagine a 55kg adult drinking a glass of water gets double the “dosage” of someone who is 110kg drinking a glass of water.
And as you inferred previously, when you are just a small kid knee high to a grasshopper…
Actually if you are a bottle fed infant – you exceed the maximum allowed dosage for H2F6Si daily.
Funnily enough – nobody seems to want to discuss this.
Best to not think about it I guess.
actually, bottle-fed babies in fluoridated areas turned into vampires.
If you buy a bottle of fluoride tables – it says on the bottle – “do not give to those under 3” or words to that effect. Now I wonder why that is?
Because it’s a set dose (e.g. 25mg), not a relative dose (e.g. 0.7ppm).
Correct. So you are happy then for an infant to get a relative dosage that will take them above the recommended maximum dosage of 0.02 mg/kg per day?
3½ kilo average newborn birthweight, 900ml fluid intake, 0.7mg/L, the average baby might be nudging the area. I’m cool with that, given the lack of reports of babies dropping dead because they broke your 0.02mg/kg line in the sand.
Not my line in the sand mate..
and it’s NOT 0.7mg/L in NZ by the way but 1.0mg/L the EPA in the states have have recently reviewed their policy and have recommended the lower level.
you can look it up if you like, but i haven’t the time – nor the patience – to argy bargy
Quibbling of rounding errors aside, the point still stands that if babies were overdosing on fluoridated water in NZ, we’d know about it.
no one is looking for it or tests for it, and you can’t check for fluorosis of teeth when there ain’t any
it would be present in the teeth that are forming. Given they start forming in the embryo, yeah. You might want to try looking stuff up again.
nah can’t be assed
won’t stop you forming an opinion, though
Nor does it stop you McF!!
Just because you aren’t aware of any children with detrimental effects from excessive fluoridation doesn’t mean there are none. Furthermore the side-effects of this medication are only now becoming apparent. So I guess its only understandable that some health professionals (as in all professions) are behind the eight ball as it were. There are many instances in medical history where a medication is introduced, only to find some way down the track, that its not all beer and skittles.
Here are some of the known side effects:
Fluorosis
reduced intellectual capacity
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3409983/
increased bone and pancreatic cancers in fluoridated areas
http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20060406/does-fluoridation-up-bone-cancer-risk
fluoride is known to accumulate in the thyroid and pineal gland
The Australian Kidney foundation and its USA equivalent no longer support the fluoridation of public water. People with chronic kidney disorders are unable to effectively eliminate it.
It was because of the effects coming to notice that the EPA recommended the lowering of fluoridation rates from 1.0 to 0.7 mg/L
Now I’m sure you will want to have the last word – so go right ahead! I’ve said what I want to say on the matter and will leave it at that.
Why thankyou.
Further research here:
You will also have read the commentary by the phd supervisor mentioned in the article, titled “Caution Needed in Fluoride and Osteosarcoma Study”. They go so far as to state:
Basically, for the hazards even partially hinted at (by the articles touted by the lying anti-fluoridation lobby), the weight of the research evidence indicates that they do not apply at the levels of fluoridation in NZ.
0.7mg/L and 1.0mg/L is a large difference in concentration mate. A 43% increase in fact.
For you to call it a “rounding error” suggests a lack of intellectual care and finesse on your part.
While you’re quibbling over fractions of parts per million, my point still stands that if babies were overdosing on fluoridated water in NZ, we’d know about it. For example, fluorosis rates would be higher than in non-fluoridated areas.
Like I said, you don’t actually give a shit about the science.
Science is about real-world demonstrations that disprove a hypothesis.
I not only give a shit about it, it’s why the point still stands that if babies were overdosing on fluoridated water in NZ, we’d know about it, mister “metabolic fluoride overload”.
43% more fluoride, 43% less, no problem to you I see. Tell you what, let’s split the difference and go for 43% less than 0.7 ppm = 0.4 ppm as a good balance.
After all, we’re talking about irrelevant homeopathic levels of fluoride here, so I’m not sure why your knickers are in a twist.
How about we go the other way, make it 2%. The point still stands that if babies were overdosing on fluoridated water in NZ, we’d know about it.
I suspect at 2% concentration, it’s be very obvious indeed. Then you’d be able to point to the demonstrable harm for babies (and many other people) overdosing on fluoridated water. In fact I suspect that the hospitals would be full, if not the morgues.
But at <1ppm in New Zealand? The point still stands that if babies were overdosing on fluoridated water in NZ, we’d know about it. Show me the harm. Disprove my null hypothesis. Please. That’s how science works.
“Show me the harm!” lol Jerry McFlock
You’re the “lol”.
You’ve gone from pretending to have rudimentary scientific skills (like looking shit up) and using big-boy words (like “metabolic”), to ignoring an entire comment (except for the four words that give you the opportunity to paraphrase a pop-culture meme so vacuous that Key’s used it).
You’d be fucking hilarious, apart from the fact that the merest possibility of idiots like you turning up on the hustings led Hamilton councillors to overrule the wishes of its citizens and make a stupid decision.
Hey McFlock, I hear the biggest water fluoridators of the OECD i.e. Australia, NZ and USA are well down the dental health league tables for children, and that the best performing countries eg Germany, UK, Denmark, Switzerland, Netherlands don’t fluoridate at all (UK does for just 11% of its population though).
Shame eh.
now you’re a broken record. See my response here when you last spouted that line.
Fact remains. Countries with high levels of water fluoridation seem to fail to improve their dental health past a certain point.
Their heart disease rates are probably lower, too. Does that mean that if we remove fluoridation then our heart disease rates will go down, too?
Maybe one day you’ll hit page five of “Baby’s First Epidemiological Study” and start looking at confounding factors and correlations. Does Spot run because of the ball’s movement, or is the majority of Spot’s movement independant of the ball’s motion?
Shame that the best performing countries in the OECD hardly fluoridate water. And the ones which do are well down the list. Yes, I’m sure that must be “confounding” for you.
It’s very amusing you break out the “heart attack” diversion. We’re talking about fluoridation and dental health, not your red herrings.
Therefore, if we remove fluoridation we will have the best teeth in the world? 🙄
SPOILER ALERT: when you get to page five, you’ll get the point. And understand that “confounding” also has a specific technical meaning. idiot.
lol McFlock, keep kowtowing to your orthodoxy mate, however it seems like half of the country’s water supply does not.
Oh no, nothing that drastic. Just suggesting that the effect of water fluoridation is relatively small and that there should be a permanent moratorium on any additional water fluoridation schemes.
lol
That’s the CV equivalent of:
Ah, we’re moving again after the restart.
I’m figuring that the “there should be a permanent moratorium” clause is just a rehash of “the germans don’t do it, so we shouldn’t”. Fairly stupid argument.
As for the “effect of water fluoridation is relatively small”, we can eliminate or reduce many confounding factors by comparing like with like.
Fluoridated vs non-fluoridated areas show a significant increase in tooth quality in fluoridated areas. Certainly not conclusive in itself, but much stronger than “the germans stopped fluoridating and have better teeth than us”. The access to dentists is equivalent, for a start (as opposed to a difference of somethng like 47/100kpop versus 77/100kpop).
lol
one additional cavity free kid out of every 25 children; no real positive impact on adults. That’s what I call slight. The effect is greater in poorer deprived areas of course, and far less in wealthier areas.
Plus, children get more than enough fluoride from just brushing, which is most of them.
900,000 kids 0-14 in NZ according to NZStat.
36,000 more kids moving into adulthood with all their teeth.
But even if think of those 36,000 as “slight”, what about the others who have significantly, detectably improved (but not quite perfect) teeth? Why do you ignore those kids? Do you not care about them, either?
the fact that there are differences between fluoridated and non-fluoridated areas suggests otherwise.
But then you can measure your daily milligram dose of fluoride simply by how heavy your brush feels. /sarc
You really are an insidiously and deliberately misleading prick. The measure includes not just missing but also decayed and cavitied teeth.
Nah, you’re being confounded again. Those differences in effect shrink even further when you excise out at risk groups eg. Maori children. BTW as I have said before, I have no issue with water fluoridation in areas where socioeconomic status is worst and cavity counts are high.
Of course I can, can’t you? /sarc
lol CORRECTION
Your “one in twenty-five” ratio, where did you get that from? Because the MoH data in the post is 8%, not 4%.
So that’s 72,000 kids with caries-free teeth, not 36,000. Still “slight” to you, no doubt. And tens of thousands with better (but not perfect, teeth), of course.
lol wrong as usual McFlock. Shame you can’t read graphs.
lol. A gentle disagreement with some phrasing, perchance? Still, it is a significant difference. Better heavy-metal fillings in a five-year old’s mouth (do they still use mercury?) than a little bit of fluoride in the water.
So we’ll make it “72,000 kids with all their teeth in perfect condition“. Better?
Yes indeed. We get a much clearer picture of the effects on New Zealand children when we choose to ignore 20% of New Zealand children. /sarc
I agree that you’ve mentioned several times that you’re happy to impose “forced mass medication” on Maori communities. Just not the, er, “more affluent” communities.
Not graphs. The table in the post. “Effect of fluoridation of % carries free and mdmf”. Here, I’ll repeat it for you:
Seriously, were you trying to estimate “4%” off a graph? That’s bold of you. But I’ll compromise and take that as the lower bound of the estimate, and the 2002-11 aggregate data would be the upper end (if the 2007 step-change is accurate rather than a systemic data quality change).
So that’s 36,000 to 72,000 kids with all their teeth in perfect condition.
By the way, how do you know that your daily dosage of fluoride is in the sweet spot between “enough” and “metabolic fluoride overload”, Doctor Viper?
That sounds about right, Macro. Water fluoridation is a big and very blunt tool. Many countries have determined ways to use fluoride to improve dental health in a more intelligently targeted and selective way.
That is actually the rate for treating the water supply.
The main source of Hydro FluoroSilicic acid, in NZ is from fertiliser works.
http://www.cdc.gov/fluoridation/fact_sheets/engineering/wfadditives.htm
‘Most fluoride additives used in the United States are produced from phosphorite rock. Phosphorite is used primarily in the manufacture of phosphate fertilizer. Phosphorite contains calcium phosphate mixed with limestone (calcium carbonates) minerals and apatite—a mineral with high phosphate and fluoride content. It is refluxed (heated) with sulfuric acid to produce a phosphoric acid-gypsum (calcium sulfate-CaSO4) slurry.
The heating process releases hydrogen fluoride (HF) and silicon tetrafluoride (SiF4) gases which are captured by vacuum evaporators. These gases are then condensed to a water-based solution of 23% FSA with the remainder as water.
Approximately 95% of FSA used for water fluoridation comes from this process. The remaining 5% of FSA is generated during the manufacture of hydrogen fluoride or from the use of hydrogen fluoride in the manufacturing of solar panels and electronics.”
Thames (where I live) gets its FSA from a fertiliser company in Tauranga.
Because it is highly toxic you aren’t allowed to dump it in rivers, land fill, or the ocean. But you can get councils to pay for it and add it to the public drinking water.
When was the last time anyone “dumped” anything at <1ppm?
????????? did i say that?
McFlock is an expert dissembler. Watch him.
Fluoridating water is a good way for corporates to earn a few bucks selling what would otherwise be a manufacturing waste by-product.
“expert dissembler”
Yeah, pointing out that you don’t understand the big words you try to use is such a dirty trick.
McFlock my good man, you’re intellectually clever yet quite arrogant at the same time. Keep drinking the (fluoridated) Kool Aid. Thankfully, about 50% of NZers and 95% of the EU are not.
At least I’m not an arrogant idiot, “my good man”.
Oh, so you were saying that if something is illegal to be dumped into waterways at 23% concentration, it’s relevance to <0.0001% concentration in the water supply is …?
More dissembling.
Starting point 23% but 1km down the stream <0.1%
Still not allowed to do it
now who’s “dissembling”?
It’s the effect of dumping they give a shit about. Not the inconsequential concentrations a km down the line.
Oh don’t get snotty just because I’m using the same tricks as you
I know you can’t tell the difference, but no, you’re not.
I actually try to demonstrate a point, in this case the fact that dumping 23% fluoride is not the same as “dumping” 99.99%pure water. With one they’re concerned about killing the fish and flora, in the other they just give a shit about flow rates.
I am well aware of what i did say and i never said that! Previously the stuff was vented into the atmosphere causing people animals and plants living around the works to die or get very sick. So they had to strip it from their exhausts (using the process I linked to above) and leaving the works with a load of highly toxic material.
Great post, thank you.
\
Imo it’s important to illustrate that the anti-fluoride crowd aren’t typical of the left-wing but rather an irrational few out on the peripheral.
“Mr Johnson said last week that the government believed that adding fluoride to drinking water was “an effective and relatively easy way to help address health inequalities—giving children from poorer backgrounds a dental health boost that can last a lifetime.”
But some of the scientists who led the research that the government commissioned into fluoridation argue that the move is premature, and they accuse the Department of Health of selecting data to fit its agenda.
In 1999 the department commissioned the University of York’s NHS Centre for Reviews and Dissemination to review the available evidence. Although that review found no conclusive evidence of harm, the researchers attributed this result to weak studies and to the difficulty of detecting small, delayed health effects. The researchers found some evidence of reduction in dental caries but were unable to conclude that fluoridation reduces social inequalities in dental health.
Iain Chalmers, editor of the James Lind Library in Oxford, who sat on the York study’s review panel, said, “I’m very disappointed that the Department of Health apparently thinks no further research is necessary before taking such a step. If there’s one message that emerged from the York review, it’s that better quality evidence is needed.”
Iain Chalmers and Trevor Sheldon of York University, who led the York review, laid out the uncertainties surrounding fluoridation in a BMJ article last October (2007;335:699-702 doi: 10.1136/bmj.39318.562951.BE). Professor Sheldon also questioned the government’s use of data from another study in a letter to the BMJ (2007;335:840-1 doi: 10.1136/bmj.39374.404502.BE).”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2244726/
Ken Perrott claims that the graph showing downward trends in both fluoridated and non-fluoridated countries is not evidence-based,
The British Medical Journal presnted an even more compelling one… it’s authors include the father of evidence-based medicine.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2001050/pdf/bmj-335-7622-ac-00699.pdf
[lprent: Actually Ken did not say that. What he said was that the graph was useless cherry-picking because they only showed two points per country and only looked at a single factor ignoring all other changes in dental practice and hygiene in those countries. And yes I have read your comments over at OP with a certain amount of disbelief that Ken was so nice to you…
You don’t help your credibility nor encourage people to read your links when you use this kind of florid dumbarse bullshit. It just makes you look like you have a limited grip on reality.
Whoever was the “father of evidence-based medicine” has been dead for centuries and probably never wrote a single article for a medical journal. Those are a comparatively recent institution. I’d suggest that you look back at either the greeks or the late 18th century as the most likely periods that such a mythical personage lived in.
And I’d suggest that you read our policy. Putting words into the mouth of an author is likely to get you booted by a moderator so hard that the ring of freshness you taste in your mouth will be anal in origin… (and not from the usual male bovine origin).
BTW: welcome to the blog 😈 You may find it a bit less “polite” than you are used to… ]