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OP: Fluoridation – it does reduce tooth decay

Written By: - Date published: 2:59 pm, June 21st, 2013 - 306 comments
Categories: health, making shit up, public services, science, water - Tags: ,

Ken Perrott at Open Parachute has been debunking some of the nonsense surrounding the debate on fluoridated water by investigating claims made against fluoridated water. His background is in scientific research, so he tends to actually read the papers cited by others. Unsurprisingly there are some of the weird nonsense interpretations around of papers because many people appear to avoid actually reading the details. This post was published on his site yesterday and has been reposted with permission.

In the current fluoridation debate anti-fluoridation activists will often claim fluoridation of public water supplies actually doesn’t reduce tooth decay. This conflicts directly with the advice of our health authorities – so what is the truth?

The claim

Again I will directly consider the claim of the Fluoridation Action Network of NZ (FAANZ). It’s summarised in the first objection to fluoridation (1. New science proves there is no benefit from swallowing fluoride ):

There are numerous modern studies to show that there is no difference in dental decay rates between fluoridated and non-fluoridated areas. The most recent, large-scale one was conducted in Australia (Armfield & Spencer, 2004 Community Dental Oral Epidemiology. 32:283-96).

When you observe the statistics of the world they clearly show tooth decay has declined in both fluoridated and non-fluoridated areas alike. This is a trend that is demonstrated when viewing the statistics across the States in America and in the smaller counties. See the charts and findings by Dr. Bill Osmunson in the above video by Professional Perspectives.

In New Zealand there have been two recent studies that showed there was no difference in dental decay for permanent teeth. One was the Southland Study in 2005 and the other was the Auckland study in 2008. These, among many other studies, have proven water fluoridation to be ineffective.

(This objection goes on to discuss topical vs ayatemic itnake of F which I won’t discuss here)

But, health authorities in New Zealand disagree – and they have the data to support their case. So how credible is the FANNZ claim?

The citation.

Again, another citation, unlinked, so I had to go to the trouble of hunting it down to read what it actually does say – which turns out to be the exact opposite of FANNZ claim! Same problems I met when I looked at their claim about toxic elements in fluoridating agents (see ).

The Australian study investigated concerns about the high use of bottled and rainwater. Several social, economic and dietary factors were considered but the major significant effect was that of fluoride. Children consuming tank and bottled water had much higher carries than those consuming water from fluoridated public water supplies. This was found for deciduous teeth, but not for permanent teeth and the authors speculated on the dietary and other reasons for this.

The authors considered lack of fluoride is an important problem for tank water use saying:

“Efforts could be directed at either reducing the use of tank water for domestic drinking water consumption or further encouraging the appropriate use of fluoride to compensate for the lack of fluoride in the drinking water.”

About bottled water they say:

“consumers currently have little choice in Australia and the imminent introduction of fluoride-containing bottled water does not look likely.”

So:

“It is also time that bottled water manufacturers in Australia began marketing fluoridated water. In the US more than 20 companies produce water with optimum fluoride concentrations.”

They finish their paper with this:

“Bottled water is promoted as a healthy, chemical-free alternative. There is a need for bottled water manufacturers to take a stand on the issue of the benefits of appropriately fluoridated water and provide consumers with choice.”

So another example of FANNZ using a citation inappropriately – to support a claim the exact opposite to the study’s results.

The New Zealand data.

The Ministry of Health (MOH) keeps records on the oral health of New Zealand children – and anyone can download that data from their website. There is data for age 5 and year 8 children over the time period 1990 to 2011. I’ll have a detailed look at the data for 2002 – 2011 (earlier data doesn’t include the ethnic breakdown which is very relevant). But first a few comments about the way many of the anti-fluoridation activists are cherry picking this and similar data to support their arguments.

Recently I received two specific claims made about this data:

  1. The oral health of Christchurch people is better than for New Zeland as a whole. The don’t have access to fluoridated water therefore this proves fluoridation doesn’t work.
  2. In 2011 the mean number of decayed, missing and filled teeth in 5 year old Waikato children was greater for children drinking fluoridated water than for those drinking unfluoridated water. This proves fluoridation doesn’t work.

In both claims data was carefully selected to “prove” fluoridation doesn’t work. One can’t directly compare Christchurch data with that for the whole of New Zealand as that ignores the influence of ethnic, social and other factors. And selection of one small piece (Waikato in 2011) of the total picture cannot give you any idea of that total picture. The data includes all sorts of variation over time and region and these cherry-pickers are make cynical use of this.

I have summarised the MOH data in this table as the changes for the percentage of carries free teeth, and mdmf – the mean number decayed, missing and filled teeth per child per year. The data are for 2 age groups and are averages, over the period 2002 to 2011, of annual data . The totals and the separate data for Maori give some idea of differences which are probably largely a result of the well established social and economic disadvantage of Maori.

Effect of fluoridation of % carries free and mdmf

Year 8

Total Maori
Carries free (%) 8.86 10.42
MDMF* -0.48 -0.81

5 years

Total Maori
Carries free (%) 8.05 12.46
MDMF* -0.63 -1.38

*MDMF = Mean decayed, missing and filled teeth

I think that shows fluoridation is associated with a clear increase in numbers of carries free teeth, and a clear decrease in the mean decayed, missing and filled teeth.

So much for FANN’s claim “that there is no difference in dental decay rates between fluoridated and non-fluoridated areas.”

The figures below show the g=data graphically to enable readers to get a better understanding.

First a comparison of average annual % carries free teeth and mdmf in the period 2002 -2011 for the two age groups.

% carries free

Fluor-1

Mean decayed, missing and filled teeth

Fluor-2

Plots of the data below give and idea of variability and trends. They also show the influence of social and economic deprivation is long-term.

% carries free

Fluor-3

MEAN DECAYED, MISSING AND FILLED TEETH

Fluor-4

A comment in trends

Some anti-fluoridationists are making an issue of the apparent improvement in oral health for people consuming unfluoridated as well as fluoridated water. For example, the claim above asserts:

“When you observe the statistics of the world they clearly show tooth decay has declined in both fluoridated and non-fluoridated areas alike.”

Perhaps they think that this somehow covers up the fact that despite the trends oral health it is still better for the fluoridated groups.

Mind you, another reason is that many of the statistics they refer to are presented only graphically. For example this figure from Fluoride Alert (an anti-fluoridation group) actually does not correspond to the data it refers to.

who_data01

It seems the figure was constructed using only 2 data points of each line – 1 very old and 1 recent. This means that all sorts of factors, (such as changes in criteria and attitude of dentists towards saving teeth) could be involved – quite apart from fluoridation.

The data I have plotted above the New Zealand in the period 2002 – 2011 does not show the declines that the anit-fluoridationists claim.

Another example of cherry-picking to mislead.

See also:

Getting a grip on the science behind claims about fluoridation

Is fluoride an essential dietary mineral?

Fluoridation – are we dumping toxic metals into our water supplies?

Tactics and common arguments of the anti-fluoridationists

Hamilton City Council reverses referendum fluoridation decision

Scientists, political activism and the scientific ethos

 

306 comments on “OP: Fluoridation – it does reduce tooth decay”

  1. Winston Smith 1

    I really don’t understand why we need to be having this…add the fluride to the water and if the whackos don’t like they can buy a water filter

    • One Anonymous Knucklehead 1.1

      Your new-found respect for evidence is very welcome.

      • gsays 1.1.1

        this whacko was talking to the dental nurse about this subject during my 11 yr old sons dental appointment.
        her concern was the food acid in energy drinks and processed food.
        she has recently seen children leave primary school cavity free and one year later return with serious decay issues.

        the problem with this issue is that nothing can be taken in isolation as causal.
        education (of parents), diet, disposable income etc.

        btw, the child in the chair was complimented on the health of his teeth, he lives on tank water, brushes twice a day and very rarely has fizzy and never food with artificial sweetener.

        • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.1

          Hmmmm yeah those energy drinks more acidic than Coke, and Coke can derust a part in 24 hours

    • lprent 1.2

      I’m unsure how effective that water filters would be. I’d have to look at the size of molecule that a water filter could strain and/or chemically bind.

      Not to mention that most water filters aren’t that effective because they are seldom if ever cleaned and the filters replaced.

      It always amuses me asking people about their usage of water filters and then pointing out that they are in fact increasing their risks through poor maintenance.

      They’d be better off buying bottled water from a known source and taking the risk of that supplier instead.

      • NickS 1.2.1

        Standard carbon filter should do the trick, mostly due to the chemical properties of SiF6 which make it very, very attracted to slightly positive atoms in a molecule. Like juicy hydrogen groups or in the case of carbon filters, the deliciously not strongly bound electrons of the carbons, especially in aromatic rings.

        Would have to be replaced according to manufacturer guidelines though, otherwise as you said, they filter wont do crap.

      • Roy 1.2.2

        Or they could collect water off their roof the way rural dwellers do.

        • Ugly Truth 1.2.2.1

          So long as you’ve got something to to disinfect it, otherwise you run the risk of cholera.

          • McFlock 1.2.2.1.1

            like the chlorine they add to municipal water. An actual poison (used in chemical warfare) added at four times the rate of fluoride. Double standards, much?

            • Ugly Truth 1.2.2.1.1.1

              No double standards, I wasn’t advocating chlorine use.

              False accusation much?

              • McFlock

                Ah, one of those non-poisonous disinfectants.
                Silver?

                  • McFlock

                    Fair enough. So people opposed to fluoridation can collect roof water, an easy opt-out solution.

                    • Not as easy as getting your water from the council supply, but probably the most practical idea if you don’t want council water.

                    • McFlock

                      a viable alternative, though.

                    • weka

                      Only if you can afford it. Double standard much?

                    • McFlock

                      bucket.

                    • weka

                      hypocrite.

                    • McFlock

                      Why? The gripe is that fluoridation is mass medication that can’t be avoided. If people are that concerned about it, then an alternative falls out of the sky. Or the local brewery’s free aquifer tap. Or a filter (though opinion is divided here). Or a still. Or supplied by tanker. Heck, if water in a pet bottle can provide clean water with a developing nation budget, it’s NZ-affordable.

                      The point being that if someone is so naive to believe that they have control over everything they injest down to a single part per million, there are options across the financial spectrum. So nah, even if one really wanted to call it “mass medication”, it’s still a massive call to use forced-medication ethical arguments.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Of course it is forced mass medication. If you had your way, you’d override the wishes of local government and make implementation of fluoridation compulsory by central legislative or regulatory mandate.

                    • McFlock

                      1: Hamilton council overrode its best knowledge of the wishes of the populace to remove fluoridation, so you’re on thin ice there;
                      2: If alternatives are accessible so you don’t need to injest it, it’s not “forced” by definition. Alternatives are available, therefore it’s obviously not “forced mass medication” and you are again using words you do not understand.

                      extra cluebat: it’s not “forced mass medication” if people aren’t medicated when they choose not to be.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Meh good as forced then.

                    • McFlock

                      no, because people don’t have to drink that water if they don’t want to.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Until you make them, or make their food with it

                    • McFlock

                      so now the local councils are making people drink municipal water? Or force-feeding them bread made with fluoridated water? No? Okay then.

                    • weka

                      McFlock, the reason you are being hypocritical is that on the one hand I am pretty sure you have argued that poor people are more at risk of tooth decay and so should be afforded a public health response. But what about poor people that want to avoid fluoridated water? Or are you suggesting that it’s only well off people that might want to do this? Not everyone can afford to install a rainwater tank, or has a car to get to the speights tap, or has an ability to use a fucking bucket.

                    • weka

                      “…
                      24 June 2013 at 11:51 pm
                      so now the local councils are making people drink municipal water? Or force-feeding them bread made with fluoridated water? No? Okay then.”

                      No-one is forcing anyone to eat a teeth damaging diet, or not clean their teeth properly either.

                      Isn’t this getting a bit ridiculous?

                    • McFlock

                      @ weka

                      Basically, I do think that fluoridated water supplies are more concerning for the rich than the poor, like vaccination. And for those poor people who are concerned about fluoride, there are many alternatives. But let’s say that there are 5 poor people who cannot find an alternative water source and are still concerned about fluoride. Do I care? No, because they are being delivered a potable water supply. I don’t believe that municipal authorities have an obligation to provide distilled, lab-quality, 99.99999999% pure water to households. Clean and drinkable yes. Stuff that has the dead rats taken out, if you will. But having an argument about something that has no demonstrable harm but a demonstrated association with positive health while not affecting any humanly-detectable quality of the water, I reckon that’s mostly the realm of people with few real worries.

                      No-one is forcing anyone to eat a teeth damaging diet, or not clean their teeth properly either.

                      My point was in response to CV calling fluoridation “forced mass medication”, which is indeed ridiculous. But bad caries-free/DMFT levels are not just the result of diet and lack of brushing, or even access to dental care. Even if everyone brushed thrice daily and ate like our neolithic ancestors, some of us would still get caries. Fluoride is complementary to other interventions, not a substitute, and vice versa.

                • Colonial Viper

                  cholera wipes out whole populations. Dental caries not so much. What was that fancy idea called again? Risk/benefits, right?

                  • McFlock

                    Well, you obviously think that the risk/benefit ration is worthwhile. How many milligrams/kg do you put your intake ate again?

          • Roy 1.2.2.1.2

            Not unless you’ve got someone who carries Vibrio cholerae shitting on your roof.

            I’ve lived in rural houses where the rainwater was collected off the roof, and visited a number of similar houses, and never yet seen anyone bother to disinfect their rainwater. I guess rascally people who climb on other peoples’ roofs to take a crap, and also happen to carry Vibrio cholerae, can’t be all that common.

            • KJT 1.2.2.1.2.1

              When we had tank water many of our visitors used to get upset stomachs. We, and our kids, seemed to be immune.

              The odd dead rat or possum did improve the flavour!

              • weka

                Have to agree with Roy – people have been using tank water for a very long time. But I’ve heard similar as KJT as well – that some people not used to it get stomach upsets. Even people who have their own tank water at home, when they go somewhere else. What does that tell us?

                • Colonial Viper

                  immune systems get trained up for the challenges that they are exposed to

                  • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                    Citation needed.

                    • weka

                      Ach, the illogic and bias in the first few paragraphs, can’t stand it. Fortunately I have a meeting to go to…

                    • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                      :lol: Quite likely. I’m pre-disposed to believe that I can “boost my immune system”, but many credible sources pour cold water on the notion.

                      Perhaps not the best citation ever though.

                    • weka

                      I’ll probably read the article because it does look like it’s got some interesting things in it. It’s just that science should be about exploring how immunity works, not pouring cold water on how it works ;-)

                      There is no doubt that there are things we can do to improve our personal immunity, even science knows that. It’s also pretty clear that science doesn’t know all there is to know about immunity yet.

                      And to go back to what CV said, I don’t think there is any doubt either that the immune system gets ‘trained’ by what it is exposed to.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      weka – the best way to look at the immune system is as your body’s standing military force. An extraordinarily powerful one, with an arsenal quite able to kill a human being in fifteen minutes or less.

                      But it is also requires a high level of discipline, of in-the-field training, and ongoing logistics supply, in order to function optimally.

                      EDIT – OAK’s citation is just irrelevant, and in the wrong universe.

                • McFlock

                  That while their immune systems might be used to it, they still should take the dead rats out of the tank?

                  • weka

                    I was going to say that we’re all individuals with individual responses to what we get exposed to in our environment ;-)

            • Ugly Truth 1.2.2.1.2.2

              I was thinking more of avian cholera

    • Mike S 1.3

      Or don’t add the fluoride to the water supply and the if the whackos don’t like it they can brush their teeth?

      • travellerev 1.3.1

        Mike S,

        Was gonna say that but you got it in first.

        I am from Amsterdam Holland and when I was first approached by the anti Fluoride “whacko’s” on the Hamilton farmer markets I responded when asked to sign their petition that I wouldn’t because I believed in fluoridation. It wasn’t until many years later I changed my mind and decided that we are not entitled to add any chemicals to the finite source of water no matter what the chemicals and that clean and healthy chemical water was a birth right of all species.

        As it happens we chuck in loads of them already in unhealthy and uncontrollable amounts and I don’t see why we should add fluoride to it.

        Decay is the result of adding unhealthy chemical products such as refined sugar and highely refined and processed carbohydrates to our diet and why not take them out first before we add chemicals to prevent tooth decay to the water.

        Sugar I might add doesn’t just rot your teeth but it makes you fat, causes many health issues such as diabetes and makes a few already stinking rich families even richer.

        So ditch the sugar and chemical laden soda pops and other crap out of your diet and voila no fluoridation needed in the first place.

        See you don’t have to go the nutcase or the wacko route. Common sense dictates that if we want people to be healthier we should make sure we eat healthier and take the detrimental chemicals they already eat out of their food and you don’t have to argue the for or against reasons of fluoride.

        And lets remember chemicals added to food to make it last longer, make it taste better no matter what that “food” is hugely profitable for already stinking rich people much like the sale of fluoride is.

        • travellerev 1.3.1.1

          Mike S,

          Was gonna say that but you got it in first.

          I am from Amsterdam Holland and when I was first approached by the anti Fluoride “whacko’s” on the Hamilton farmer markets I responded when asked to sign their petition that I wouldn’t because I believed in fluoridation. It wasn’t until many years later I changed my mind and decided that we are not entitled to add any chemicals to the finite source of water no matter what the chemicals and that clean and healthy chemical water was a birth right of all species.

          As it happens we chuck in loads of them already in unhealthy and uncontrollable amounts and I don’t see why we should add fluoride to it.

          Decay is the result of adding unhealthy chemical products such as refined sugar and highely refined and processed carbohydrates to our diet and why not take them out first before we add chemicals to prevent tooth decay to the water.

          Sugar I might add doesn’t just rot your teeth but it makes you fat, causes many health issues such as diabetes and makes a few already stinking rich families even richer.

          So ditch the sugar and chemical laden soda pops and other crap out of your diet and voila no fluoridation needed in the first place.

          See you don’t have to go the nutcase or the wacko route. Common sense dictates that if we want people to be healthier we should make sure we eat healthier and take the detrimental chemicals they already eat out of their food and you don’t have to argue the for or against reasons of fluoride.

          And lets remember chemicals added to food to make it last longer, make it taste better no matter what that “food” is hugely profitable for already stinking rich people much like the sale of fluoride is.

          • travellerev 1.3.1.1.1

            Purgatory!!!

            By the way, When I did some research to respond to Ken Perrot who left a comment on my blog I thought to check up on the Amsterdam fluoridation situation and guess what?

            It turns out that while Amsterdam was one of the first cities to add fluoride to the otherwise chlorine and chemical free water supply (To this day I might add) in 1969 if I recall correctly, making us all very proud that we were so well taken care of in such a modern way it was also the first city to get rid of it again in 1973! (without any fanfare by the way. A possible sign they did not want to have to pay damages to the people affected by the temporary poisoning of their drinking water.)

            Why? Because they kept and eye on the possible side effects and it turned out that in cities which had part Amsterdam water and part filtered dune water in separate water supply systems the neighborhoods with Amsterdam water started to report all kinds of health issues which disappeared when fluoridated water was discontinued.

            Seems simple to me and while I used to be proud I was drinking fluoridated water to keep my teeth I am now even more proud of my city of Amsterdam making that decision all those years ago.

            So why do I still have all my teeth at 57 if it wasn’t for ingesting this miracle chemical we should all drink? Perhaps it was because we had free dental care for everybody with six monthly checkups. Perhaps it was because I never did drink any coca cola and other crappy sugar laden soda pops and brush my teeth regularly. Or perhaps it was because like everybody else until recently I did brush my teeth with fluoridated tooth paste. Who knows? One thing is for sure drinking it wasn’t the reason

            • travellerev 1.3.1.1.1.1

              Oops, Here is the link to the summary of papers published on the Amsterdam, Netherlands fluoridation experiment.

              Oops** ” clean and healthy chemical water” should of course have been ” clean and healthy chemical FREE water”.

              • A chemical-free chemical?

                • Tamati

                  Methinks that the water supply may have been laced with the deadly dihydrogen monoxide.

                • weka

                  Chemical

                  noun

                  a compound or substance that has been purified or prepared, esp. artificially : never mix disinfectant with other chemicals | controversy arose over treatment of apples with this chemical.

                  From my computer’s dictionary. I think it’s a bit of a limited definition, but it serves to illustrate my point. To most humans on the planet, water is something that flows in rivers, you drink it or eventually die, and you can wash things with it. Sometimes it falls from the sky.

                  Honestly, most people don’t think of water as a chemical, and most people aren’t scientists. You can argue all you like about technical definitions, but it doesn’t help the debate in any way at all.

                  People who can write the chemistry name for water think they’re clever and/or funny, but we all have google and that pejorative meme is old and tired now.

                  • Murray Olsen

                    Once everyone figures out what dihydrogen monoxide is, we can worry about hydrogen hydroxide and hydroxylic acid as well. On a serious note, I take your point about communicating with non-specialists. We can’t stick to the technical meanings of words, but have to use them in ways that are understood. As long as this is done without conveying misinformation, I don’t object at all.

                    As far as fluoride goes, I doubt if it’s harmful in the quantities used and I can’t really be bothered learning more about it. The issue as far as I’m concerned is one of compulsory medication. If someone doesn’t want fluoride in their system, any caries is only going to be in their own teeth. Unless they want to bite me or kiss me, it’s none of my business.

                    I think a good argument can be made for many vaccination programs, but not for mass fluoridation. I’m bloody glad that I benefitted from programs against polio, smallpox, rubella, and tetanus, for example. I saw too many people only slightly older than myself who didn’t.

                    • The did a funny test in California where they asked people in the street should (a href=”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_hoax”>dihydrogen monoxide also known as H2O be banned and 9 out of 10 people said yes and signed the petition.

                    • The real joke here is that dihydrogen monoxide actually is toxic to aquatic life. A fish in water is a living fish, but a fish in dihydrogen monoxide is a fish dying from oxygen deprivation.

    • Polish Pride 1.4

      Or alternately control freaks could add fluoride to their own water if they choose to. :)

      • Colonial Viper 1.4.1

        Apparently its all very safe so yeah sounds like a do it at home job for the Fluoridistas.

      • weka 1.4.2

        “Or alternately control freaks could add fluoride to their own water if they choose to”

        Except this is a public health issue, so that doesn’t really work in terms of addressing the need.

        • Polish Pride 1.4.2.1

          If peoples teeth were literally falling out then yeah for sure but it is nowhere near that in fact the advantages are not that significant imho. I just don’t like the idea of chemicals of any kind being added to such a key resource. If you want it in your water add it yourself. Don’t force me or anyone that doesn’t want to have it to have no choice in the matter. Making fizzy drinks cost more than bottled water would be far more beneficial when it comes to combating tooth decay than adding fluoride to water… again imho.

        • Ugly Truth 1.4.2.2

          As soon as you talk about public policy in terms of need, you’re effectively only communicating with the brain-dead. Need and reason are more or less mutually exclusive.

          The original reason for fluoride was do dumb the population down.

          • One Anonymous Knucklehead 1.4.2.2.1

            :roll:

            We need better drivel.

            • Ugly Truth 1.4.2.2.1.1

              No need to be so hard on yourself. Just read up on how to construct a coherent argument and you’ll have a chance for improvement.

              • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                Could you be more vacuous? You comment here, day after day, demonstrating little but your own conceit, credulity and ignorance.

                The problem, twit, is that you persist in attempting to derive results from conclusions, and in doing so you make a laughing stock, which is why so many of us are laughing at you.

  2. Kia Ora

    It is all very well to look at the science of fluoridation and I commend the research for being done, but seriously, what is so hard about teaching children from an early age to do their teeth?

    What is also so hard about using some common sense and not having bottles of coke at the bedsides of children over night. If they really need a drink, get a glass of water.

    Through that my parents managed to save themselves a small fortune in terms of taking my brother and I to the dentist. The only time it got expensive was when I came off my bike in an accident and needed a crown, and when I had to have all four wisdom teeth taken out under anaesthetic.

    Common sense, really.

    • McFlock 2.1

      It’s not a replacement for personal oral hygiene, it’s a supplement. Not everyone has teeth like yours (although if you drank a lot of water as a kid and the supply had fluoride in it, who’s to say whether that might not be why?).

      • Colonial Viper 2.1.1

        A compulsory supplement? Where at least 299/300 kids being medicated get no benefit in terms of just one less decayed, filled or missing tooth?

        I don’t think so.

        • McFlock 2.1.1.1

          Well, given that the charts above show a mean association of around one less decayed, filled or missing tooth per child across the entire population, by your figure that one child who benefits retains in the region of 300 perfect teeth.

          Shark Boy, perhaps?

          • Colonial Viper 2.1.1.1.1

            Yeah whoops. When you feed 25 children fluoridated water, just 1 more of them ends up caries free.

            • McFlock 2.1.1.1.1.1

              Yes.
              And unless that kid would otherwise have had 40-odd DMFT, then it looks like at least some of their peers would have better teeth than without fluoride.

              But even so, that’s something like 4,000 kids with perfect teeth every year.

      • Colonial Viper 2.1.2

        In fact, if your children are non-Maori, mass medication fluoridation will only help say 1/500 or 1/600 kids, in terms of one less tooth affected by decay, filling or missing.

        499 out of the 500 children will get no benefit.

        Fucking hopeless mass medication. 0.2% of the non-Maori kids who swallow it might benefit, and even fewer adults if you can imagine that. Might be time to ditch it, like all of Germany has done for over 2 decades.

      • Mike S 2.1.3

        It’s not a supplement, it is classed as a medicine as it is not an essential nutrient.

    • What is also so hard about using some common sense and not having bottles of coke at the bedsides of children over night.

      ?!?!

      Sorry Robert, I’m having trouble understanding how you know that ever child’s bedside has a bottle of coke beside it. In all my years I’ve never seen such a thing. I’m not saying it’s impossible – but I’ve never seen it.

      This sounds suspiciously like like one of those unsubstantiated prejudices that certain right wingers like to bandy about, so blame can be apportioned, and the rest of us are no longer needing to be concerned.

      Like, every bene has a SkyTV dish…

      Every every wastes their money on pokies…

      Every bene blah blah blah.

      Just ask Rankin, McCoskie, and Tamaki. They’ll provide the rest.

      Ken Perrott has put his case. Let’s debate that rather than raise bogeymen that are easy to splash about, but can’t be substantiated.

  3. Saccharomyces 3

    Great article. I can’t believe that the anti-fluoride crowd get air time. Frankly I can’t believe that the Hamilton council were suckered in to giving in.

    • McFlock 3.1

      elections coming up and they hit on the “kick it to central government” dodge.

      Nothing scares politicians like the possibility of nutbars at public meetings screaming that you poisoned the water supply. Squeakiest wheel gets the grease.

      • Ugly Truth 3.1.1

        Facts are facts. Fluoride is a poison, and the dose argument doesn’t work because fluoride accumulates in the body.

        • One Anonymous Knucklehead 3.1.1.1

          Oh you’re a chemist and a biologist and a bush lawyer and an orgone technologist? When do you sleep?

        • Roy 3.1.1.2

          Everything you can absorb is a poison in excess. Here’s some other poisons: Vitamin A, Vitamin D, iron, zinc, selenium, copper, magnesium, sodium, chloride, iodide, oxygen, water. You can kill yourself by overdosing with the above and any other substance you can absorb. On the other hand all the above-listed substances are essential for survival, too.

          The most toxic substance known to man is Botulinum A. Know what the active ingredient in Botox is? Botulinum A. That’s right, at a low enough dose, the most toxic substance known to man can be safely injected as a cosmetic agent to smooth out wrinkles.

          The first and last rule of toxicology is that coined by Paracelsus: The dose makes the poison.

          Fluoride is readily absorbed but is also excreted over time. It is not considered to be a bioaccumulative poison like, say DDE.

          • Ugly Truth 3.1.1.2.1

            Actually it is bioaccumulative like DDT.

            http://withonebreath.wordpress.com/2008/10/30/fluoride-is-a-bioaccumulative-poison-1800-professionals-call-for-end-of-water-fluoridation/

            Fluoride is a Bioaccumulative Poison; 1,800 Professionals Call for End of Water Fluoridation

            Studies also show that only about 50% of the fluoride that is ingested (through drinking fluoridated water or swallowing toothpaste) is excreted by the body, which suggests that fluoride, like many toxic chemicals, is bioaccumulative. Scientists have found that fluoride accumulates in the brain, kidneys and bones, which can lead to lower IQ, behavioral/hormonal problems, tooth decay and bone cancer.

            • McFlock 3.1.1.2.1.1

              lol

              also from your source page:

              We discussed quite thoroughly the fluoridation of water supplies and how we were using it in Russia as a tranquilizer in the prison camps. The leaders of our school felt that if it could be induced into the American water supply, it would bring about a spirit of lethargy in the nation; where it would keep the general public docile during a steady encroachment of Communism. We also discussed the fact that keeping a store of deadly fluoride near the water reservoir would be advantageous during the time of the revolution, as it would give us opportunity to dump this poison into the water supply and either kill off the populace or threaten them with liquidation, so that they would surrender to obtain fresh water.

              We discussed in these schools, the complete art of revolution: the seizure of the main utilities, such as light, power, gas and water, but it was felt by the leadership that if a program of fluoridating the water could be carried out in the nation, it would go a long way toward the advancement of the revolution. ~ Oliver Kenneth Goff, 1957

              Fluoridation is a communist plot to keep people docile while the revolution happens, y’all.
              No wait, it’s capitalists buying a worldwide conspiracy of public health professionals to falsify data just so they can sell waste to local authorities.
              No wait, it’s the powers that be wanting to make the population more docile so that they don’t revolt.

              Maybe it’s just a plan to fiendishly help people keep their own teeth healthy, for longer.

              • weka

                So is it bioaccumulative or not McFlock? Couldn’t quite tell from your response to UT’s assertion that it is.

                • McFlock

                  Well, yes – in the teeth. A good thing. And at high exposures, bad in the teeth and bad in the skeleton.

                  As to the rest of the body, I have no idea, even with UT’s assertion. The lack of any demonstrated harm associated with fluoridation at NZ levels suggests to me that if it does occur, it does not occur to a level levels that causes detectable harm.

                  But UT (who has previously struck me as being a complete nutbar) linking to a site that claims fluoridation is a communist conspiracy suggests to me that the idea is akin to “cabbages growing on Mars”: there might be cabbages growing on Mars, but I’d need much more than that level of evidence before I countenance it as a reasonable possibility. Just another piece of idiotic crap on the internet, as far as I’m concerned.

                  • weka

                    “a site that claims fluoridation is a communist conspiracy”

                    I have a filter, which means I don’t read that part of the argument :-)

                    • McFlock

                      I’ve generally found that discovering such claims (e.g. “naz1s did it” or “commies did it” or “illuminati did it”) from a source behoves one to carefully check every other claim that source makes before mentioning the alleged fact in public.

                      Indeed, given the nature of the vague (if any) referencing, and the circular referencing that goes around lobbying sites, it’s actually less effort to look at the claim from scratch, a lot of the time. The folk with accurate claims usually don’t have a problem citing original sources.

            • One Anonymous Knucklehead 3.1.1.2.1.2

              :roll:

              UT, do you ever look for information that will contradict your notions?

              It’s embarrassingly easy to find.

              We seem to be back on baloney detection 101.

          • weka 3.1.1.2.2

            “The first and last rule of toxicology is that coined by Paracelsus: The dose makes the poison.”

            That’s true Roy. But the first rule of medicine is first do no harm. And the first rule of holistic health is don’t do things in isolation (or more likely, don’t pretend you can do things in isolation). The MoH can make a judgement call about the relative risk of harm for the population, but they can’t for individuals.

            I tend to think the relative risk of fluoride is lowish. But the problem is when you combine that with all the other chemical exposures we have not adapted to yet and set that alongside the health of the individual, including their genetic predispositions and environment. What does toxicology say about that?

            • One Anonymous Knucklehead 3.1.1.2.2.1

              …chemical exposures we have not adapted to yet…

              If they are so damaging how come life expectancy has increased so much?

              • weka

                Are you asking because you don’t know (I suspect you don’t), or because you think you know and are being a smart arse?

                The reason life expectancy has increased is largely due to improvements in diet, potable water, and shelter (warmth, dryness and lack of overcrowding). Those three things alone will give people better immunity (not getting sick in the first place) and better recovery from illness that would otherwise kill them, as well as some direct protection from disease (clean, potable water).

                But alongside that increased life expectancy we have increased chronic illness. We can have an argument now about whether that increase is because we’re living longer or getting more sick without dying, or both (I’d guess both).

                If I get time later I’ll try and dig up some analysis of the cocktail effect and how many chemicals we are exposed to that our great grandparent’s either weren’t or were but in much lower or less frequent doses. And bear in mind, it’s the cocktail that is as much as issue as the individual chemicals.

                • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                  There’s no need to be so defensive, it was a genuine enquiry. Given historic levels of exposure to for example, lead, you are going to be hard pressed to show that we are more exposed to hazard these days, but I guess it’s possible.

                  • weka

                    I guess I see a plethora of comments where people are being smart arses, it’s hard to pick the genuine ones now sometimes.

                    Lead… I think you missed the point. I don’t have the figures to hand, but it’s something like this: we’re now exposed to x thousand new chemicals that we weren’t before, either entirely new, or levels or frequency. This is such an obvious truth I’m surprised I have to explain it (other than coming up with an actual figure). Think about all the agricultural chemicals developed since ww2 for instance, compared to what rural people were exposed to before that for thousands of years. Or drugs, or food additives, or plastics, or anti-fungal/anti-microbials/disinfectants, antibiotics, petroleum products, synthetic dyes, paints, resins/glues, cleaning products, I could make a pretty long list…

  4. Colonial Viper 4

    You’re choosing to medicate 4.4M people with a substance which is known to change both bone and central nervous system cell function, in order that we get just one less filled, decayed or missing tooth per 300 or so kids?

    And when you break down the data, it’ll be obvious that most of those bad teeth belong to a very definite subsection of the population who could be very tightly targetted?

    No thanks.

    • McFlock 4.1

      lucky that’s not the case then.

    • NickS 4.2

      /facepalm

      ffs, I linked to papers refuting those claims, that clearly stated low concentrations of fluoride have no statistically link to negative health outcomes, other than very minor dental fluorosis when over 1.0mg/L. Over 1.5mg/L then there are minor drops in IQ, with other more serious issues occurring as concentration towards and over 3.0mg/L as indicated in studies of populations drinking from naturally fluoridated or polluted water supplies.

      To help remind you, info starts here:
      http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-19062013/#comment-651015

      And if you don’t accept the conclusions of the papers linked to, I suggest firmly you actually bother to tell us what’s wrong with the methodology, instead of going “lol-science-has-been-wrong!!!111!” like you’ve done in that thread.

    • Colonial Viper 4.3

      Yeah I screwed the magnitude. When you feed fluoridated water to 25 kids, just one more of them will end up caries free.

      Does fluoridated water do anything for adult teeth? Why is all the data for kids who are largely going to get new teeth anyway?

      • McFlock 4.3.1

        five years old and year 8 (I believe that’s around 13 if my math is correct, i.e. baby teeth gone). Gets both tooth sets.

        • Colonial Viper 4.3.1.1

          Ever see any data on older people? Say 18 year olds?

          • McFlock 4.3.1.1.1

            read the MoH link provided.
            2009 Oral health survey. Chapter 6: “Protective factors”.

            The answer to the question is “yes”.

  5. Lloyd 5

    The really scarey thing isn’t how many fillings the kids get. It is how much more parents have to pay for major dental surgery. This hits low income families hard.

    I understand it has been proven that dental costs for a population go up eight times more than the money saved by a council when it stops fluoridating. (reference anyone?) It would appear that legislation should be quickly passed requiring any council that stops fluoridating water should immediately set up a system for subsidising dental bills for its ratepayers that must spend eight times per annum on what was spent of the fluoride salt added to the water supply. Surely the Gnats would do this as they love making Councils jump through hoops.

    Anyone who argues that adding the fluoride to water is medication doesn’t understand that fluoride is natural and our ancestors evolved using much higher fluoride levels in their water than the water running off our highly leached soils in NZ. (Except for fresh North Island volcanic ash – that has enough fluoride in it to kill sheep which eat ash with grass).

    • Colonial Viper 5.1

      I understand it has been proven that dental costs for a population go up eight times more than the money saved by a council when it stops fluoridating. (reference anyone?) It would appear that legislation should be quickly passed requiring any council that stops fluoridating water should immediately set up a system for subsidising dental bills for its ratepayers that must spend eight times per annum on what was spent of the fluoride salt added to the water supply.

      Let’s do a reality check first shall we? Does unfluoridated Christchurch have 8x the dentists per capita as fluoridated Wellington?

      Do unfluoridated Christchurch dentists make 8x the money that fluoridated Wellington dentists make?

      Anyone who argues that adding the fluoride to water is medication doesn’t understand that fluoride is natural and our ancestors evolved using much higher fluoride levels in their water than the water running off our highly leached soils in NZ.

      Please give me some examples of which ancestral water ways or bodies of water in which ancestral countries you are talking about.

      doesn’t understand that fluoride is natural

      Asbestos and arsenic are “natural” too.

      • McFlock 5.1.1

        Let’s do a reality check first shall we? Does unfluoridated Christchurch have 8x the dentists per capita as fluoridated Wellington?

        Doesn’t follow – basically Lloyd’s assertion was that increase in treatment cost is 8x the cost of the sacks of fluoride put into the water supply, not that the treatment costs will increase eightfold.

        That having been said, I agree that pretty much all his assertions need citations.

        • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1

          Doesn’t follow – basically Lloyd’s assertion was that increase in treatment cost is 8x the cost of the sacks of fluoride put into the water supply

          Ahhh ok.

    • Bramble 5.2

      Wrong. Dental care is free in NZ up to the age of 18. Any child that needs treatment that cannot be carried out by the dental therapist from the school dental service ( e.g. root canal fillings etc.) is referred to a dentist and all dental work is completed by the dentist at no cost to the parent. Fact.

  6. JoeB 6

    Those graphs all show that children in unfloridated areas teeth are improving at a faster rate than those in floridated areas. How does the blogger explain that?

    • lprent 6.1

      Perhaps you should look at *when* fluoridation started in those areas and how widespread it is, what the improvement in dentistry was, what changed diets there are, and how many countries were dropped from this pissant cherry picking graph. Basically it is crap. Pure unadulterated lying crap.

      Basically whoever did the graph you are referring to obviously had a lobotomy a long time ago because all it screams to me is someone doing a Nick Smith – and lying with numbers.

      • Colonial Viper 6.1.1

        Maybe fluoridation simply isn’t as influential a factor in dental health as compared to the 1950′s when it was first introduced, when countries were far poorer, dental education quite primitive and fluoride toothpastes far less used. (Fluoride toothpastes only started achieving major acceptance in the 1960′s and 1970′s is my understanding)

        My view is that people are carrying on with a decades old assumption that fluoridation is a “big gun” in reducing caries, but actually it is an assumption which is increasingly less and less true.

        If you want a better more robust chart lprent look at p35 of this OECD report.

        http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/download/8109111ec012.pdf?expires=1371811853&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=52AA70341415CEE12AEE07ABAB4F6008

        The top 10 countries for child dental health are typically European and fluoridation free (and even the UK only has a small minority of its water supply fluoridated). Those top 10 countries have also typically had larger improvements in dental health amongst children even though they were already doing well, when compared to fluoridated countries like Australia, NZ and USA.

        The US and Australia, who introduced widespread fluoridation early on in the 1950′s, not only have so-so child dental health results by OECD data, but they also have mediocre (US) to lacklustre (Australia) improvements in child dental health.

        The anti-fluoridation poster child is of course Germany, which has been totally fluoridation free for decades. (West Germany since at least the 1950′s and East Germany since at least re-unification).

        Germany not only has the best dental health for children of all OECD countries, but has clearly also had the best dental health improvement out of all OECD countries. 100% fluoridation free.

        PS in certain high caries, low socioeconomic communities where use of fluoridated toothpastes is poor, I think that water fluoridation could be quite helpful. But pumping it out to 4.4M people because of those specific communities it not something I would do.

        • McFlock 6.1.1.1

          associated with 8% more kids being caries free and mean DMFT being cut by about a third is a pretty “big gun”, public health-wise.

          But what public oral health initiatives do we need to copy from Gremany to replicate their resuts? Other than “no fluoridation”, of course.

          • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.1.1

            associated with 8% more kids being caries free and mean DMFT being cut by about a third is a pretty “big gun”, public health-wise.

            Nah the recent advantage is more like 4% to 5% to fluoridation, not 8%. And like I said, if you are dealing with a population with mediocre dental health, that’s where we are in the middle of the OECD road, then fluoridation will seem more useful.

            But what public oral health initiatives do we need to copy from Gremany to replicate their resuts? Other than “no fluoridation”, of course.

            OK well we start with no fluoridation, like most of the other high dental performing OECD countries.

            • McFlock 6.1.1.1.1.1

              just going by the data in the post.

              But your approach to the public health question is a bit odd – a plan to achieve world class oral health across the population starts by eliminating the thing that is associated with (by your estimate) 4-5% more kids being caries free?

              • Colonial Viper

                fluoridation is associated with middling performance in the OECD dental health stats mate

                countries in the top 10 by absolute results and by dental health improvement over the decades tend to have zero or low usage of water fluoridation

                the first country to introduce widespread fluoridation and which still uses it very widely (USA) has experienced mediocre dental health improvement compared to non users of fluoridation.

                edit that OECD link times out

                google “OECD dental health among children 2009″ to find the report pdf

                • McFlock

                  Okay, so the only reason Germans have superlative pearlers is because they don’t fluoridate. Then why do non-fluoridated areas in NZ have shittier teeth than fluoridated areas?

                  • Colonial Viper

                    well, actually all areas of NZ have way shittier teeth than unfluoridated Germany, 90% unfluoridated UK etc.

                    It’s best practice in child dental health we need to be looking at and NZ doesn’t do it.

                    • McFlock

                      Well, sticking with Germany for a moment, I notice two things:
                      fluoridated areas in NZ are closer to Germany than the non-fluoridated areas; and
                      the OECD report had Germany with 77 dentists per 100k population, while NZ had 47 dentists per 100k pop.

                      And your first public health initiative is to remove fluoridation rather than, say, upping the number of dentists.

                    • lprent

                      There are lower levels of all sorts of trace elements in NZ waters and soils compared to a continental environment. We are after all a set of islands that have spent the last 45 million of years of separation from Antarctica twisting on the edge of some sea plates and bobbing up and down under the waves.

                      We don’t get the types of basaltic intrusions and vast ancient alluvial plains that are so common in other land masses. Instead we have the wastage of the plains derived from metamorphosed sea beds and subducting seafloor rock regurgitated from volcanoes. NZ is pretty poor in quite a few minerals that humans and other animals from richer mineral environments evolved in.

                      Selenium for instance through much of the mid-north island, and throughout much of the country. There are serious iron deficiencies in some parts of the country. There are parts of the country with some quite low calcium levels. Other parts where there are deficiencies in potassium.

                      Fluoride and other fluorines are one of the known things with low levels in NZ compared to a continental landmass of Germany and the ancient basaltic mountains throughout the english and scottish island.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      And your first public health initiative is to remove fluoridation rather than, say, upping the number of dentists.

                      Are you putting that option on the table, McFlock?

                      lprent – cheers.

                    • McFlock

                      Every option is on the table.

                      But my point is that making the first step the removal of an interventon associated with clear benefits is just obtuse. And if you weren’t so obsessed about the supposed corruption of your precious bodily fluids, then you are the one who would have looked at factors beyond fluoridation.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Every option is on the table McFlock? As long as you approve of it?

                      I never asked for fluoridation to be removed from any city’s water supply McFlock.

                      And unlike you, I’m not here to tell people what to swallow.

                    • McFlock

                      I never asked for fluoridation to be removed from any city’s water supply McFlock.

                      compare with:

                      But what public oral health initiatives do we need to copy from Gremany to replicate their resuts? Other than “no fluoridation”, of course.

                      OK well we start with no fluoridation, like most of the other high dental performing OECD countries. .

                      And you reckon you’re not trying to make me swallow something unpalatable.

                      By the way, how do you measure the toothpaste onto your brush? At 1ppm, you might accidentally double your daily intake if you just did it by hand.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      What do you care about how much toothpaste I use McFlock? F apparently has no risks associated with it.

                    • McFlock

                      I care that a scientific illiterate who can’t handle basic math wants to cancel an effective public health intervention because of, well, “oooo water shouldn’t have chemicals in it” or somesuch bollocks, just as long as they think they’re okay personally.

                      Epitomised in your comment here:

                      Fluoridate all 4.4M of us to get to those specific populations? No thanks. I get well more than enough fluoride daily from 3x use of Colgate Total.

                      And you have the gall to call someone else a “stuck up little shit” when they call you on your idiocy. Or maybe you’re just the sort of dickhead who thinks that “google” makes them an “autodidact” and substitutes for an “education”.
                      Either way it’s late, I’m tired, and the Dunning-Kruger waves emanating from your keyboard are giving me a headache.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      You seem to have mistaken yourself as my thesis supervisor or as my boss. You are neither. Fuck off.

                      wants to cancel an effective public health intervention because of, well, “oooo water shouldn’t have chemicals in it”

                      That water shouldn’t have added chemicals in it is the starting point for discussion, I agree.

                      I care that a scientific illiterate who can’t handle basic math

                      LOL mate. Shame that 50% of the NZ population don’t get fluoridated water and almost all of the EU, including several european states who have removed fluoride from their water since the 1970′s.

                      Apparently they think your judgement is shit, but I suppose you believe that they are “scientifically illiterate” as well, making you what, the superior intellect?

                      I’ll repeat it again. Fluoridation is the hallmark of mediocre to averaging performance in OECD dental statistics. Suck it up and accept it, slowcoach.

                    • McFlock

                      You seem to have mistaken yourself as my thesis supervisor or as my boss. You are neither.</blockquote
                      Thank fuck for that. The paperwork I'd have to fill in to report your incompetence would be quite prohibitive.

                      Apparently they think your judgement is shit, but I suppose you believe that they are “scientifically illiterate” as well, making you what, the superior intellect?

                      No, you moron. They are doing something different to New Zealand, and that difference is not just whether they fluoridate municipal water. They did actual research. They have a variety of other programmes, from more dentists to different delivery and cost structures, to differences in antibiotic use, to supplements in other vectors, to differences in food consumption, and so on. They didn’t just magically cancel fluoridation and everything improved. Your fixation on fluoride is like the original cargo cults, making “radios” out of bamboo so more supplies would arrive by ‘plane.

                      I’ll repeat it again. Fluoridation is the hallmark of mediocre to averaging performance in OECD dental statistics. Suck it up and accept it, slowcoach.

                      And I’ll say it again: when asked how you would improve an “average” level of caries in NZ kids, your only suggestion was to eliminate one of the things keeping levels “average” and above “approaching crap”. But apparently to point out the stupidity of this is a “psychological belief in the entrenched orthodoxy” (as opposed to your decidedly non-psychological belief, I suppose).

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Well thank fuck you’ve finally accepted that the way NZ is doing things is half pie, and that water fluoridation is not only completely unnecessary if you do things properly, you can often get significantly better results as shown in Europe. You’re not thick after all.

                    • McFlock

                      So you don’t understand quotation marks, either. :roll:

                    • Paul Campbell

                      I thought they used fluoridated salt in France and Germany much like we iodise salt – not everyone gets their fluoride from the water – some places (including the sea) have a natural fluoride level higher in their water than we have in NZ – some places actually need to reduce it

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Indeed Paul. Check out comment 7 below. Also in some countries you can get fluoridated milk.

        • ak 6.1.1.2

          So helping specific communities at minimum cost and zero risk to anyone else is not something you would do. Fair enough. Misjudged you. nigh nigh

          • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.2.1

            Don’t be a stuck up little shit.

            Fluoridate their water if you like, after all they are the populations for which it would do the most good and that is what I said above. Fluoridate all 4.4M of us to get to those specific populations? No thanks. I get well more than enough fluoride daily from 3x use of Colgate Total.

            And in Europe they prefer to make fluoridated salt available for people to buy.

            and zero risk to anyone

            You do know that F increases the movement behaviour of brain cancer cells, as well as altering the metabolic behaviour of bone cells in ways which aren’t fully understood right? What else don’t you know about how F affects body cells?

            • ak 6.1.1.2.1.1

              Yep fair enough. Sorry, didn’t realise your expertise was right up there with the established medico-scientific world. Can’t chat sorry, early start tomorrow – incidentally Colonel, not trying to be impertinent or anything, but how many signatures have you have personally got for the asset sales petition? (no worries, I can imagine how demanding a constant Shearer-bashing campaign can be, they also serve who only bitch and moan etc….)

              • Colonial Viper

                but how many signatures have you have personally got for the asset sales petition? (no worries, I can imagine how demanding a constant Shearer-bashing campaign can be, they also serve who only bitch and moan etc….)

                LOL, pissing contests are for 12 year olds buddy.

                btw, if Labour had had any leadership guts, it could’ve stopped these asset sales 12 months ago.

        • rosy 6.1.1.3

          My view is that people are carrying on with a decades old assumption that fluoridation is a “big gun” in reducing caries, but actually it is an assumption which is increasingly less and less true.

          Yep, agree. Relying on fluoridation may have made health authorities lazy and cheap about ensuring good dental hygiene in the population via equitable and affordable access to dental services, dental hygiene education, etc, etc…

          But, which do we do first? end fluoridation or improve access to dental care needs? or do both together?

          Typically NZ isn’t it? – ending an effective public health measure before other measures to improve dental health are well established.

          • ak 6.1.1.3.1

            right on Rose – but it’s not all Nz, just a handful of lazy gutless councillors and assorted dorks.

            • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.3.1.1

              It’s so sad for your world view that after 50 years, only 50% of the country is fluoridated. Good luck for the next 50 years.

              PS good to see you respect local democracy, but I’m sure you know better than the people from up on high.

            • rosy 6.1.1.3.1.2

              Councillors are the wrong people to decide if fluoridation should cease. Increases in the cost of fixing the teeth of children comes out of the health budget, not theirs. The whole decision-making process and how to meet the needs of the population requires assessment, imo of course. Hospitals have a hard enough time as it is with emergency dental health problems – adults and children.

              • Colonial Viper

                Yes because we want the country run by unaccountable appointed technocrats and not by elected officials? Think of the precedent there for a minute. To override the decision of the Christchurch City Council, which has very recently turned down fluoridation again, and say have a govt hand picked panel make the decision on local water instead. I’m not sure we want to go there (again).

                Germany and the UK have the best dental performance of the entire OECD. Germany has not fluoridated for over two decades (and even then it was East Germany), UK has a fluoridation rate of only 11%.

                Oh look here you go, the UK Government is going to take the decision away from elected representatives by legislation, so you have your wish

                http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-180373/Anger-fluoride-plans.html

                • rosy

                  The way i heard it the coucil has not listened to the community on this issue. I don’t think for a moment that the community should have technocrats run their lives and btw i support the view that there are measures other than fluoridation that may improve dental health in developed countries. This is why the whole issue needs revisiting.

                  The reason i think local councils shouldn’t make the fluoride decision is because they don’t wear the costs of bad teeth. Maybe local health boards should decide… They can get the latest best practice info and do have a vested interest in the outcomes and are elected officials.

  7. Mike S 7

    “Although the prevalence of caries varies between countries, levels everywhere have fallen greatly in the past three decades, and national rates of caries are now universally low. This trend has occurred regardless of the concentration of fluoride in water or the use of fluoridated salt, and it probably reflects use of fluoridated toothpastes and other factors, including perhaps aspects of nutrition.”
    SOURCE: Cheng KK, et al. (2007). Adding fluoride to water supplies. British Medical Journal 335(7622):699-702

    DMFT (Decayed, Missing & Filled teeth) Status for 12 year olds by Country
    - World Health Organization Data (2012) -

    Country DMFTs Year Status*
    Denmark 0.7 2008 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
    Germany 0.7 2005 No water fluoridation.67% salt fluoridation.
    England 0.7 2009 11% water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
    Netherlands* 0.8 2002 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
    Switzerland** 0.82 2009 No water fluoridation.88% salt fluoridation.
    Belgium 0.9 2009-10 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
    Sweden 0.9 2008 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
    Australia 1.0 2003-2004 80% water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
    Austria 1.0 2002 No water fluoridation.6% salt fluoridation.
    Ireland 1.1 2002 100% water fluoridation in study.No salt fluoridation.
    Italy 1.1 2004 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
    United States 1.19 1999-2004 64% water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
    Finland 1.2 2006 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
    France 1.2 2006 No water fluoridation.65% salt fluoridation.
    Spain 1.3 2004 11% water fluoridation.10% salt fluoridation.
    Greece 1.35 2005-06 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
    Iceland 1.4 2005 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
    New Zealand 1.4 2009 61% water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
    Japan 1.7 2005 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
    Norway 1.7 2004 No water fluoridation.No salt fluoridation.
    * The Hague | ** Zurich
    Tooth Decay data from:

    World Health Organization Collaborating Centre for Education, Training, and Research in Oral Health, Malmö University, Sweden. http://www.mah.se/CAPP/

    Salt fluoridation data from:

    Gotzfried F. (2006). Legal aspects of fluoride in salt, particularly within the EU. Schweiz Monatsschr Zahnmed 116:371-75.

    • Colonial Viper 7.1

      You can’t argue with people’s psychological belief in their own entrenched orthodoxy…even as that entrenched orthodoxy is shown to be more and more fragile, they will fight it harder and harder. This is the very definition of the term “die hard”. It is literally an argument against fundamentalists who cannot recognise that is what they are.

      btw nice find.

    • bad12 7.2

      What this particular graph shows is that there is obviously NO effect evident from having water fluoridated,

      As CV points out you can shove ‘the facts’ in front of peoples faces and they are still totally blind, how do the proponents for adding fluoride to water address the fact that Iceland with the same amount of dental caries as a % of population as New Zealand does not add fluoride to it’s water,

      The fact is MOST of the countries in this study have better dental outcomes than little old New Zealand wether or not they add fluoride or not,

      So, obviously those who are fixated upon ”the Health Department says it’s good for us” therefor it is argument are not going to be swayed by ‘actual facts’ and as exhibited in the comment below some of them will actually demand that EVERYONE is compulsorily dosed with the stuff, (fluoride), despite what this study clearly shows, which to anyone with half a functional, (brain that is), putting fluoride in the water makes not one iota of difference to dental outcomes the world over,

      Here’s a quote from the Wikipedia,”The greatest cause of tooth decay and cavities is by the production of acid by bacterial fermentation of the food debris accumulated on the tooth surface”, unquote,

      Anyone want to start an argument about the above??? this is what we do know about tooth decay,

      (1)The disease Amelogenesis Imperfecta (imperfect tooth enamel) occurs in the population at a rate of 1 in 718 to 1 in 14000, this is a disease which does not allow the enamel on teeth to fully form,

      Overlay the statistics for caries/tooth decay on the FACTS above and what have you got, essentially you have a corresponding number of people with imperfectly formed enamel on their teeth through a disease that adding fluoride to the water supply does not address as you do the number of people with caries/tooth decay,

      Consider this, tooth enamel begins to breakdown when exposed to an acidic enviroment, the correct scientific term for this is demineralization, this occurs at a PH level of 5.5,

      Wellington’s Te Marua water storage lakes and treatment deliver a water supply to household taps with a PH level of ???? 7.0-8.5,

      On the one hand Wellington’s water supply is delivering water with a PH level that science says will strip teeth of enamel thus allowing cavities/tooth decay to occur and then adding fluoride in the hope that this will re-mineralize the tooth enamel, as the study above clearly shows it apparently achieves nothing,

      What is the best method of preventing tooth decay, CV above has pointed this out also, brush em 3 times a day or better still brush em 20 minutes after eating anything,

      My opinion, along with food in schools we need tooth-paste and brush’s along with the continual education of the kids to brush after eating…

      • Colonial Viper 7.2.1

        So, obviously those who are fixated upon ”the Health Department says it’s good for us” therefor it is argument are not going to be swayed by ‘actual facts’ and as exhibited in the comment below some of them will actually demand that EVERYONE is compulsorily dosed with the stuff, (fluoride)

        If they kneel at the altar and take the holy sacrament, you shall too

      • Saccharomyces 7.2.2

        “Consider this, tooth enamel begins to breakdown when exposed to an acidic enviroment, the correct scientific term for this is demineralization, this occurs at a PH level of 5.5,

        Wellington’s Te Marua water storage lakes and treatment deliver a water supply to household taps with a PH level of ???? 7.0-8.5,”

        Ummmm, are you saying that 7-8.5 are really acidic?

        • bad12 7.2.2.1

          No not at all, i am simply pointing out 2 facts vis a vis tooth decay and the level of PH at which tooth enamel will begin to break down,

          i have not looked yet to see what level the PH of rainwater is as it falls from the sky, or what the optimum PH level is for human consumption,

          i do have a general idea that a PH of 7-9 leads to a elongated life-span for iron pipes but have yet to ascertain if such elongation applies to the human life span….

          • Saccharomyces 7.2.2.1.1

            Okay, you do realise that 7-8.5 isn’t acidic at all don’t you?

            Stupid question, plainly you don’t……

          • Colonial Viper 7.2.2.1.2

            Less than 7 on the scale is acidic, 7 is neutral on the scale, above 7 is alkaline.

            It’s a log scale, so the numbers close to 7 are fairly neutral eg 6 is only very mildly acidic, and 8 is only very mildly alkaline.

            But once you start getting down to 2, 1, 0.5, you’re talking stomach acid level then very quickly serious battery acid burns.

  8. Tamati 8

    Great to see Kevin Hague and Annette King both strongly in favour of fluoridation. Hopefully they will have the courage to do something about it!

    Personally, I thinking passing the authority to the DHB’s is probably the best idea. It would very swiftly lead to almost complete fluoridation across the country.

    • Colonial Viper 8.1

      Do DHBs have the water processing engineers and budget to install and operate fluoridation equiment?

      No?

      Well, this will be interesting then, won’t it.

      For all you other fluoride types. I’m quietly betting that the FDA never required full medicines safety testing on the fluorosilicate additive, because fluoridation first started in the 1950s and they didn’t do double blind placebo trials then.

      Let’s see the trial data if it exists.

      • millsy 8.1.1

        “Do DHBs have the water processing engineers and budget to install and operate fluoridation equiment?

        No?”

        They would delegate all that to the water “providers”.

      • Tamati 8.1.2

        One of the benifits of fluoridation is that is very very cheap. So yes I’m sure the DHBs could fund fluoridation.

        On your second point, it is logistically impossible to do a randomised controlled trial of water fluoridation because you can’t randomise where people live!

        • Colonial Viper 8.1.2.1

          don’t need that detail of evidence just go ahead and do it in other words.

          One of the benifits of fluoridation is that is very very cheap. So yes I’m sure the DHBs could fund fluoridation.

          It’s not cheap if it doesn’t do what it’s supposed to.

          • Tamati 8.1.2.1.1

            On that basis, we couldn’t definatively say that smoking causes lung cancer, as no randomised controlled trials were ever done!

            • bad12 8.1.2.1.1.1

              Yawn, yeah 10% of those who die of lung cancer are smokers, what caused lung cancer in the other 90%,

              Not smoking perhaps…

              • Tamati

                Are denying that smoking causes lung cancer?

              • Huginn

                Smoking tobacco causes 80–90% of lung cancers. Nonsmokers account for 10–15% of lung cancer cases, and these cases are often attributed to a combination of genetic factors, radon gas, asbestos, and air pollution including second-hand smoke.

                You can find the references here:
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lung_cancer

                • bad12

                  Yes my bad i got that slightly wrong, the question is that if smoking caused lung cancer why do only 10% of smokers get it,

                  Wouldn’t be anything to do with a genetic predisposition would it???

                  http://www..science20.com>medicine>cancerresearch>newsarticles

                  • Huginn

                    ‘ . . . only 10% of smokers’???????!!!!!!!!
                    You’re kidding, right?

                    • McFlock

                      probably not. Heart disease is the big killer, but lung cancer is the biggest condition that would be pretty much unheard of without smoking.

                    • Huginn

                      10% of smokers seems unbearably high

                    • bad12

                      Kidding, no not at all, if simply smoking causes lung cancer then everyone who smokes would get lung cancer,

                      If as the fanatics keep trying to brainwash you with ‘tobacco is a poison which kills half its users’, why does it only kill half the users,

                      The Health Department simply add numbers they wouldn’t have a fucking clue, if a smoker dies of heart disease, smoking killed them is it as far as Health departments are concerned,

                      that’s just simplistic bullshit used to brainwash the already simple….

                  • Arfamo

                    That was my GP’s contention some years back when she told me emphysema was in my future, rather than lung cancer. Can’t remember what percentage, but she said studies showed genetic predisposition was the major factor in smoking-related lung cancer.

    • muzza 8.2

      Tamati bro, what is your agenda, or is it simply that you’re not able to understand your position is flawed?

      I recall you said you were well read/informed on this topic, seems you have been drinking too much loaded water, eh!

      Whats your response on Mike S (7), above ?

      Do you have a preference of how dental health might be approached in NZ, free checks for kids, the less well off etc, or is it simply that mass medication, ticks all the boxes, for you?

      • Tamati 8.2.1

        1. What’s my agenda?

        A desire to improve the health of the nations children, a desire to reduce health inequalities and a desire that good quality science is used in public policy. And um … world peace.

        2. I was bought up in Christchurch, studied in Otago and have be medicated against my will in Auckland for the past 3 years.

        3. In reponse to Mike. There are multiple variables which contribute to dental caries, you can’t assess the effects of one without accounting for these other variables.

        4. If I was in charge of dental health in children what would I do?

        -Increase funding to dental nurses throughout the country, so they can be involved with their school communities and can upskill their abillities.

        -Implement a tax on soft drinks and ban food advertising during childrens programming.

        -Reinstate food standards for school canteens.

        -Mandatory fluoridation for all water supplies.

        And a few others.

        BTW Dental checks are already free for under 18s

        • bad12 8.2.1.1

          You were brought up in Christchurch, have you got really bad teeth…

          • Tamati 8.2.1.1.1

            No, I don’t.

            I have good teeth despite not drinking fluoridated water as a child.

            • bad12 8.2.1.1.1.1

              So if Christchurch 5 year olds have slightly better teeth as far as caries go than the rest of New Zealand without having fluoride added to the water supply why on earth would you want to add the stuff…

              • Colonial Viper

                Beholden to prior tradition and beliefs. (Simply observe the righteous indignation and self superiority from some pro-fluoridation persons).

                • bad12

                  Lolz, i am going to take a break and converse with the bricks in my chimney, they seem to respond better to ‘facts’….

              • Tamati

                As I said before there are multiple variables which cause caries, you can’t analyse one in isolation without accounting for the others. Hence why simply comparing nations or DHB regions tells you nothing.

                • Colonial Viper

                  It tells you that fluoridation may not be that influential a factor, especially if the top three countries in the OECD for dental health have fluoridation rates of 11% and less.

                  • Tamati

                    You can’t tell anything definatively without accounting for the other variables.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Is that true? Apparently some here are definitive enough of their beliefs to advocate for medicating everyone en mass, compulsarily.

                    • McFlock

                      as opposed to the patently incompetent who won’t let that stop them entrenching their opinion.

        • Huginn 8.2.1.2

          + 1

  9. bad12 9

    OK, lets bring this a little closer to home seeing that some are unconvinced by the international comparisons of tooth decay events in fluoridated and non-fluoridated countries,

    Christchurch, the countries second largest city, (am sure most of us have heard of the place, small town somewhere in the South), has NEVER fluoridated it’s water supply, yes NEVER fluoridated it’s water supply,

    So, Christchurch having never fluoridated it’s water supply must have the worst frigging teeth in the country right???,

    WRONG, and i quote, ”Oral health status data is collected by the CDHB,(Canterbury), community dental service and reported to the Ministry of Health for children in year 1 and 8, (5 years and 12-13 years),

    Figure 1 shows Canterbury DHB having a slightly greater % of children caries free, (tooth decay), at age 5 compared to New Zealand children over-all,

    Shit kids sorry to burst the bubble, maybe the Canterbury DHB is skewing their figures so as to receive LESS health ministry funding for oral health,

    The CDHB report goes on to say that children 12-13 years have also shown a higher % of caries free until 2010 where for some reason,(earthquake related???), that % reversed by 8%,

    http://www.healthchristchurch.org.nz/media/…childadolescentoralhealth.PDF

    So, my opinion is that the Canterbury DHB figures clearly point to the ‘fact’ that adding fluoride to water supply’s is simply f**king bulls**t as far as dental outcomes are concerned,

    But don’t let the ‘facts’ get in the way, give them all a dose of something, anything today…

    • Colonial Viper 9.1

      Must bow to the time honoured ritual of fluoridating water, the power of holy water thus made cannot be resisted by ordinary skepticism. If you’re not with us, you must be against us.

    • Populuxe1 9.2

      Christchurch also has one of the highest incidences of Irritable Bowel Syndrome in the world, what’s causing that then? It’s simplistic and scientifically illiterate to use Christchurch as a single example. For all I know it could be that Christchurch’s DHB is really good at dental hygine, or that Christchurch’s anomolous demographics favour oral hygine fetishism, or the Tooth Fairy really likes the place. Dude, do you even science?

      • Colonial Viper 9.2.1

        Since you just made a whole lot of hypothetical shit up and brought in the irrelevancy which is IBS, do you?

        Pay attention to the evidence Pop, even when it doesn’t suit your belief systems.

        • McFlock 9.2.1.1

          Pay attention to the evidence Pop, even when it doesn’t suit your belief systems.

          plank out of your own eye, and all that.

      • bad12 9.2.2

        LOLZ, this has to be a comic comment right???, if fluoridated water gives better dental outcomes as it’s proponents claim then the non-fluoridation of Christchurch water in terms of the claimed benefit of adding fluoride to water would have to lead to Christchurch children having worse dental out-comes than areas that do fluoridate,

        You don’t need a PHD to understand the simple facts as stated by the Canterbury DHB,

        Your spray of Christchurch may do this that or the other to achieve its slightly better dental out-comes for year 5 kids is really really ‘scientific’ isn’t it…

  10. bad12 10

    OK, the obvious next port of call in this debate would have to be the question, ”what are the perceived health ‘risks’/ ‘bad outcomes’ of adding fluoride to the water,

    IF specific health outcomes are suggested from having prolonged exposure to fluoride in the water supply then we need compare those specific health outcomes with the data from say Wellington or Auckland with the data from Christchurch to gain some understanding of any differences in the specific % difference in any particular instance of bad health out-comes suggested as resulting from the dosing of water supplies with fluoride,

    It may take a bit of digging to ascertain the true nature of any specific negative health out-comes from such use of chemical fluoride, right now i have an open mind as to whether or not there are such negative health outcomes to be found in the data…

    • Colonial Viper 10.1

      One part is around the medical ethics, civil rights and risks of ignoring the need for consent to treatment in any such programme of compulsory mass medication.

      It may take a bit of digging to ascertain the true nature of any specific negative health out-comes from such use of chemical fluoride, right now i have an open mind as to whether or not there are such negative health outcomes to be found in the data…

      Visible dental fluorosis occurs in 10% to 50% of people in areas with fluoridated water.

      In the USA approx 41% of adolescents demonstrate excess body fluoride content via visible dental fluorosis. Currently this is seen as a largely cosmetic issue, but in my view it represents metabolic fluoride overload.

      • McFlock 10.1.1

        but in my view it represents metabolic fluoride overload.

        Oh, in your view?

        Lol
        the MoH survey (p172) has lower rates of fluoridosis for every severity level (except “questionable”) in people living in areas with fluorodated water than non-fluorodated.

        Yep, by CV’s logic we should fluoridate all the water in NZ to lower the rates of dental fluorosis and “metabolic fluoride overload”.

        • Colonial Viper 10.1.1.1

          Oh McFlock, drink up.

          • McFlock 10.1.1.1.1

            Had it in my porridge this morning.

            Care to address the fact? You seemed to imply that fluoridation caused increased fluorosis in the US, but the NZ data seems to suggest that at MoH-recommended levels, (to use a technical term) you’re full of shit. Definitely something to do with alternative sources – maybe people really worried about fluoridation tend to drink more cups of tea.

            • Colonial Viper 10.1.1.1.1.1

              Nah enough mate. Previous to the last day or two of posts I was mildly though mostly unconsciously pro-fluoride in my positioning.

              After being forced to review a whole lot of material and arguments, what I recognise now is that internationally, a heavily fluoridated country like NZ fares no better in dental health than its peers. I’ve learnt that many advanced countries after introducing it have long pulled fluoridation from their populations. I’ve also learnt that in the OECD the top few performing countries either do not, or barely, fluoridate, their water supplies. In the case of the UK 11% or so of water is fluoridated despite most UK water naturally having F levels of less than 1ppm. And in NZ, fluoridation means roughly one more caries free kid out of 25. Not bad, but just so so.

              As always, participating on the Std has been a lovely learning experience.

              • McFlock

                Some countries stopped.
                some coutries don’t.
                Most of the Uk doesn’t.
                And a few thousand kids would have more caries-ridden teeth if you got your way.

                That’s the entirety of what you’ve learned?
                Pearls before swine…

                • Colonial Viper

                  lol dude

                  Most of UK doesn’t fluoridate

                  And they top OECD performance for child dental health, way ahead of NZ which fluoridates lots.

                  • McFlock

                    therefore, if we remove fluoridation we will have the best teeth in the world? :roll:

  11. Huginn 11

    Great article. Thanks
    Fluorodization is an involuntary dosing of the masses with a medical treatment that disproportionately benefits a minority that is hidden from most of us and whose care is the responsibility of others.

    Objectors have a point. It’s the same point that Margaret Thatcher was making when she said that ‘there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families’.

    • weka 11.1

      Not quite. You seem to be confusing medical consent rights with libertarianism. Medical ethics are a social justice issue in the same way that the community taking responsibility for the more vulnerable is.

      Myself, and many of the others I see objecting to fluoridation of water supplies, believe that public funds should be used to target children at risk of dental problems. We just think it should be done a different way. Myself, I’d like to see something similar to the public health stop smoking approach, whereby there is a focus on what creates good oral health (diet, hygiene practices), and over time different strategies are used: legislation, education, health promotion etc. The reason I prefer this is that it has positive flow on effects for general health, not just preventing cavities.

      • Huginn 11.1.1

        Fluoridation costs an estimated $0.99 per person-year on the average in the US.

        It is one of the few public health strategies that saves more money than it costs.

        • weka 11.1.1.1

          So? That might be relevant if the ‘saved’ funds were being spent on health promotion, but they’re not. (and what are the NZ savings not the US ones?).

          You were equating people objecting to fluoridation with Thatcher. I pointed out the flaw in that argument. Care to respond to the points I raised?

          • Huginn 11.1.1.1.1

            Ken Perrott has shown that fluorodization of the water supply works.
            It’s effective, it’s certain and it’s cost effective.
            That’s the point of the article.

            His figures support the public economic argument for mass fluorodization.

            That leaves the philosophical argument that mass fluorodization is an unethical intrusion by the state upon the rights of the individual to choose and that this right to choose goes hand in hand with the responsibility to choose wisely.

            That’s a powerful argument, one that you’re buying into by advocating for education programs that will give individuals better information with which to make these important decisions.

            • Colonial Viper 11.1.1.1.1.1

              Nah. A commentator above said that Christchurch’s dental performance was similar or better than the national average. And Christchurch has never fluoridated before.

            • weka 11.1.1.1.1.2

              I didn’t read all of Perrott’s article because it is hard for me to trust a scientist who cannot write a report without getting into the ‘our opponents are idiots” argument. Pretty much every report of this kind I have read, where a scientist is trying to debunk ‘nutters’, contains false logic and misses relevant points. I can’t be bothered with it, and to pretend that it is unbiased information, and without an agenda, is dishonest. I take Perrotts article as a good attempt to present his side of the argument as he sees it (and I’m sure much of the science is sounds, but that doesn’t mean the logic or how the science is used is), but fails in a number of aspects.

              (likewise, I can’t be bothered reading much of the anti-flouridation lobby’s material for similar reasons).

              I don’t accept that fluoridation works as effectively as claimed, and that it is without risk. I do think that it’s probably quite useful in some instances, and that the risk is relatively low compared to many other things we are exposed to. I don’t believe that city and district councils have any business medicating all their ratepayers via the water supply.

              So your philosophical argument doesn’t follow. And your assertion that people against fluoridation are akin to Thatcher doesn’t stand.

              Which brings me to another point. It’s possible that were fluoridation not available in NZ, then the MoH would have to take more health promotion action re oral health. Which is what they should be doing. The reliance on fluoride possible means that we are worse off overall healthwise.

              • McFlock

                If there were no fluoridation then the MoH would still have exactly the same level of funding. Every year funders&planners get together to prioritise programmes with clinicians, and they deny far more initiatives than clinicians want, from traditional programmes to promising pilot studies, purely on cost:likely benefit analysis. There would be no “more health promotion action re oral health”.

                My perspective on the water supply is that if the municipality is providing a 99.99% pure water supply, and the only impurities are undetectable to consumers, provide a demonstrable association with health improvements for a significant portion of the population, have no detectable harm to consumers at those trace concentrations, and actually save in healthcare costs down the line… well, who could seriously object?

                • weka

                  I wasn’t talking about MoH funding though.

                  And the reason that the MoH doesn’t take a proactive health promotion approach is because of the paradigm they work within, not because of funding.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Sheeezus weka you are on fire today.

                  • McFlock

                    Funnily enough I was at a conference recently that consisted almost entirely of health promotion programmes from around the country, so I respectfully disagree.

                    • weka

                      Can you give some examples of what you mean by health promotion?

                    • McFlock

                      “Say Ahh” in Hawke’s Bay.
                      Wahakura and Pepi-pods
                      Mana Kidz (South Auckland)
                      Smokefree.
                      Every single leaflet in your local GP’s office.

                    • weka

                      I don’t know what the first three lines are.

                      Sorry if I offended you, I could be more tactful. My point, such as it was, is that mainstream health promotion is quite limited.

                    • McFlock

                      No worries. Sorry I was a bit terse – more just rattling the immediate ones off, more than anything else.

                      Say Ahh and manakidz are based aroung rheumatic fever swabbing and education.
                      Wahakure and pepipods are safe-sleep containers for babies, as well as some SUDI education stuff.

                      From my perspective it seems that there are lots of programmes, but most of them are highly targeted simply because the money isn’t there to roll them out country-wide with high profiles. A good exampe is the GP office – basically if someone has an issue, the doctor can deliver the additional information right there to only those who have that issue.

                      What would you regard as a “health promotion” project?

              • Macro

                Very sound reasoning weka. It’s not the task of councils to medicate their ratepayers. And it’s not the same as other water treatments – eg chlorination, and flocculation. “Fluoridation” is done for “medical” reasons alone.

                And I quite agree regarding the health promotion. Fluoridation is seen by the MoH as the number one arm of fighting tooth decay in this country – despite the fact that there are as many studies showing it to have little effect as there are to the contrary. Were that to be removed perhaps we might have a much more effective Oral Health programme directed at those who need it most.

        • Colonial Viper 11.1.1.2

          The US is one of the most fluoridated nations on the planet, has a middling score in terms of OECD dental health, and one of the worst records in the OECD for dental health improvement. Like most areas, not an area to follow them in.

          • McFlock 11.1.1.2.1

            I’d be looking at their access to dental care, first

            • Colonial Viper 11.1.1.2.1.1

              Absolutely. Their socialised free dental care for under 18s leaves us behind somewhat. It also covers teeth whitening and straightening (if you live in LA). ;)

  12. Tamati 12

    So what do all you Green Party evangelists make of Kevin Hague “strongly supporting” fluoridation?

    Perhaps time to pass a policy at conference, putting him in his place?

    Or have the party hierachy siezed power from the membership?

  13. chris73 13

    This is one of those issues that isn’t left v right but people who spend a little too much time on the net v those that accept the overwhelming scientific evidence thats been going for decades

    • Colonial Viper 13.1

      That “overwhelming scientific evidence” you speak of must be why West Germany got rid of fluoridation in the 1950′s, and when they unified with East Germany more than 20 years ago, they told the East Germans to get rid of it too. And to this day, fluoridation of water is banned in Germany.

      • chris73 13.1.1

        And I’m sure other countries add fluride to the water so whats your point?

        • Colonial Viper 13.1.1.1

          That there is no “overwhelming scientific evidence” as evidenced by the very scientifically and technically capable Germans having chosen against water fluoridation for half a century, and you just made that shit up to sound good.

  14. infused 14

    Water Filters don’t remove fluoride. So there really is no choice. Bottled water does not have it removed either.

    Distillers are the only way to remove it, but then bring other issues (still trying to find answers to it).

    Enough fluoride is delivered by brushing your teeth twice a day.

    Personally, I’d rather have it removed, however, I can accept that in poorer places, it makes sense to add it to the water.

    Quite surprised to see CV against this.

    • Colonial Viper 14.1

      Where on earth have you stated your proposal before that I have come out against it? Come on man, get with the story.

      I’m certainly not against targetted fluoridation of the water of specific communities which need it, especially on a limited timeframe (10 years or less) while other dental health improvement measures are undertaken.

      However for a child who already brushes 2-3x per day with fluoride toothpaste, having fluoridated water as well is way too much and you can see it in fluorosis of the teeth (and probably bones, although you can’t see those…)

      • infused 14.1.1

        I only quickly skim read this thread as I’m a day late.

        Correct, something I got as a kid. Spots on my teeth and nails from taking fluoride tablets on a farm (they tasted good :()

        I did a whole lot of reading about a week ago on this as I just bought a distiller. From reading, it seems fuck all is even delivered by water to teeth anyway. Toothpaste has a much better effect.

        It also only really has an effect on kids… so why bother?

        Distillers are quite cool I must say. I’d be keen to find the exact facts on them though since there seems to be a lot of misinformation on the net.

        • Colonial Viper 14.1.1.1

          Pretty much.

          It also only really has an effect on kids… so why bother?

          Yeah it’s weird. You medicate 4.4M people to try and make a (sometimes very) small difference to a bit over 1/10 of them.

          • McFlock 14.1.1.1.1

            I guess road safety ads targeted at youths shouldn’t be on national TV then, because most people who see them won’t be in the target audience.

            • Colonial Viper 14.1.1.1.1.1

              At least you have the choice to turn the fucking ads off if you want to.

              • McFlock

                It’s called a “roof tank”.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Meh or just move to one of a couple of dozen NZ towns and cities which have got rid of fluoridation, or never introduced it to start with.

                • weka

                  “It’s called a “roof tank”.”

                  Nice to see the collective responsibility argument fail.

                  • McFlock

                    How so? We’re talking about the people who are so outraged public money is spent on health advertising not marketed at them that they’ll turn the TV off rather than watch the ad.

                    • weka

                      No idea who you mean re TV ads.

                      I thought you were making the argument that people who don’t want fluoridated water could use rain water. Not everyone can afford to install a rain water tank (or run a water filter assuming that it works).

                    • McFlock

                      yeah, CV did a dodge again – he started by saying that fluoridation was bad because it exposes everybody but theoretically only heps a few. Same with ads.

                      Then he switches to whether you can “opt out” (turn the TV off) being the bad thing about it.

                      As for your argument re: the cost of rainwater: worrying about <1ppm fluoride is essentially a "first world problem" which I suggest is not the daily talk of the needy in NZ (more "how do we put stuff in the water in the pot to feed the kids"). I am sure that for those poor people for whom an undetectable-without-scientific-equipment, no-detectable-harm-but-definite-positive-association trace-element addition to their 99.9% pure water supply is at the forefront of their minds, alternative sources will present themselves. E.g., a bucket.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      yeah, CV did a dodge again – he started by saying that fluoridation was bad because it exposes everybody but theoretically only heps a few. Same with ads.

                      Please be clear. I never likened it to TV ads, but you did. And it’s not truly analogous because you don’t literally swallow the ad into your body.

                    • McFlock

                      but they’re putting thoughts into your braaaaaaiiiiiinnn!!!
                      Damned government – how do they know that the “ghost chips” ad won’t make people hungry and cause obesity in millions?

                    • RJLC

                      McFlock – a word in your ear, you’ll find it difficult to convince anti-vaccers, climate change deniers, anti-fluoridation activists etc.
                      All such groups know better than the world’s medical, public health and scientific communities. How so? the power of google, activist and denier websites.

                    • McFlock

                      true, but occasionally CV comes up with something useful. And it was definitely a wide-ranging discussion – got to look up a few articles in a field that’s only slightly overlaps my own. :)

            • Saccharomyces 14.1.1.1.1.2

              Likewise the depression ones, the drink driving ones, the pay your fines ones.

            • infused 14.1.1.1.1.3

              Yeah because that’s the same as mass medication.

  15. infused 15

    Also to note, I think the CDC (US) has just recommended lowering the dosage to 0.7 ppm as it has found we now get fluoride from many different sources.

    • Colonial Viper 15.1

      Yep.

      Also the “dosage” doesn’t take into account someone’s physical condition and size. You can imagine a 55kg adult drinking a glass of water gets double the “dosage” of someone who is 110kg drinking a glass of water.

      And as you inferred previously, when you are just a small kid knee high to a grasshopper…

      • Macro 15.1.1

        Actually if you are a bottle fed infant – you exceed the maximum allowed dosage for H2F6Si daily.

        Funnily enough – nobody seems to want to discuss this.

        Best to not think about it I guess.

        • McFlock 15.1.1.1

          actually, bottle-fed babies in fluoridated areas turned into vampires.

          • Macro 15.1.1.1.1

            If you buy a bottle of fluoride tables – it says on the bottle – “do not give to those under 3″ or words to that effect. Now I wonder why that is?

            • McFlock 15.1.1.1.1.1

              Because it’s a set dose (e.g. 25mg), not a relative dose (e.g. 0.7ppm).

              • Macro

                Correct. So you are happy then for an infant to get a relative dosage that will take them above the recommended maximum dosage of 0.02 mg/kg per day?

                • McFlock

                  3½ kilo average newborn birthweight, 900ml fluid intake, 0.7mg/L, the average baby might be nudging the area. I’m cool with that, given the lack of reports of babies dropping dead because they broke your 0.02mg/kg line in the sand.

                  • Macro

                    Not my line in the sand mate..

                    and it’s NOT 0.7mg/L in NZ by the way but 1.0mg/L the EPA in the states have have recently reviewed their policy and have recommended the lower level.

                    you can look it up if you like, but i haven’t the time – nor the patience – to argy bargy

                    • McFlock

                      Quibbling of rounding errors aside, the point still stands that if babies were overdosing on fluoridated water in NZ, we’d know about it.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      no one is looking for it or tests for it, and you can’t check for fluorosis of teeth when there ain’t any

                    • McFlock

                      it would be present in the teeth that are forming. Given they start forming in the embryo, yeah. You might want to try looking stuff up again.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      nah can’t be assed

                    • McFlock

                      won’t stop you forming an opinion, though

                    • Macro

                      Nor does it stop you McF!!
                      Just because you aren’t aware of any children with detrimental effects from excessive fluoridation doesn’t mean there are none. Furthermore the side-effects of this medication are only now becoming apparent. So I guess its only understandable that some health professionals (as in all professions) are behind the eight ball as it were. There are many instances in medical history where a medication is introduced, only to find some way down the track, that its not all beer and skittles.
                      Here are some of the known side effects:
                      Fluorosis
                      reduced intellectual capacity
                      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3409983/
                      increased bone and pancreatic cancers in fluoridated areas
                      http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20060406/does-fluoridation-up-bone-cancer-risk
                      fluoride is known to accumulate in the thyroid and pineal gland

                      The Australian Kidney foundation and its USA equivalent no longer support the fluoridation of public water. People with chronic kidney disorders are unable to effectively eliminate it.

                      It was because of the effects coming to notice that the EPA recommended the lowering of fluoridation rates from 1.0 to 0.7 mg/L

                      Now I’m sure you will want to have the last word – so go right ahead! I’ve said what I want to say on the matter and will leave it at that.

                    • McFlock

                      Why thankyou.

                      Our exploratory analysis found an association between fluoride exposure in drinking water during childhood and the incidence of osteosarcoma among males but not consistently among females. Further research is required to confirm or refute this observation.

                      Further research here:

                      Our ecological analysis suggests that the water fluoridation status in the continental U.S. has no influence on osteosarcoma incidence rates during childhood and adolescence.

                      You will also have read the commentary by the phd supervisor mentioned in the article, titled “Caution Needed in Fluoride and Osteosarcoma Study”. They go so far as to state:

                      This issue of Cancer Causes and Controls includes a paper with results from an analysis of a subset of participants in our ongoing study of fluoride and osteosarcoma. The paper, “Age-specific fluoride exposure in drinking water and osteosarcoma”, presents a partial view of this ongoing study. We would like to advise the readers to be especially cautious when interpreting the findings of this paper for several reasons. The authors themselves have already raised a flag of caution in their final paragraph with the note that they are aware of additional findings from other incident cases that appear not to replicate the findings from the cases presented in their paper.

                      Basically, for the hazards even partially hinted at (by the articles touted by the lying anti-fluoridation lobby), the weight of the research evidence indicates that they do not apply at the levels of fluoridation in NZ.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Quibbling of rounding errors aside, the point still stands that if babies were overdosing on fluoridated water in NZ, we’d know about it.

                      0.7mg/L and 1.0mg/L is a large difference in concentration mate. A 43% increase in fact.

                      For you to call it a “rounding error” suggests a lack of intellectual care and finesse on your part.

                    • McFlock

                      While you’re quibbling over fractions of parts per million, my point still stands that if babies were overdosing on fluoridated water in NZ, we’d know about it. For example, fluorosis rates would be higher than in non-fluoridated areas.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Like I said, you don’t actually give a shit about the science.

                    • McFlock

                      Science is about real-world demonstrations that disprove a hypothesis.

                      I not only give a shit about it, it’s why the point still stands that if babies were overdosing on fluoridated water in NZ, we’d know about it, mister “metabolic fluoride overload”.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      43% more fluoride, 43% less, no problem to you I see. Tell you what, let’s split the difference and go for 43% less than 0.7 ppm = 0.4 ppm as a good balance.

                      After all, we’re talking about irrelevant homeopathic levels of fluoride here, so I’m not sure why your knickers are in a twist.

                    • McFlock

                      How about we go the other way, make it 2%. The point still stands that if babies were overdosing on fluoridated water in NZ, we’d know about it.

                      I suspect at 2% concentration, it’s be very obvious indeed. Then you’d be able to point to the demonstrable harm for babies (and many other people) overdosing on fluoridated water. In fact I suspect that the hospitals would be full, if not the morgues.

                      But at <1ppm in New Zealand? The point still stands that if babies were overdosing on fluoridated water in NZ, we’d know about it. Show me the harm. Disprove my null hypothesis. Please. That’s how science works.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      “Show me the harm!” lol Jerry McFlock

                    • McFlock

                      You’re the “lol”.

                      You’ve gone from pretending to have rudimentary scientific skills (like looking shit up) and using big-boy words (like “metabolic”), to ignoring an entire comment (except for the four words that give you the opportunity to paraphrase a pop-culture meme so vacuous that Key’s used it).

                      You’d be fucking hilarious, apart from the fact that the merest possibility of idiots like you turning up on the hustings led Hamilton councillors to overrule the wishes of its citizens and make a stupid decision.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Hey McFlock, I hear the biggest water fluoridators of the OECD i.e. Australia, NZ and USA are well down the dental health league tables for children, and that the best performing countries eg Germany, UK, Denmark, Switzerland, Netherlands don’t fluoridate at all (UK does for just 11% of its population though).

                      Shame eh.

                    • McFlock

                      now you’re a broken record. See my response here when you last spouted that line.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Fact remains. Countries with high levels of water fluoridation seem to fail to improve their dental health past a certain point.

                    • McFlock

                      Their heart disease rates are probably lower, too. Does that mean that if we remove fluoridation then our heart disease rates will go down, too?

                      Maybe one day you’ll hit page five of “Baby’s First Epidemiological Study” and start looking at confounding factors and correlations. Does Spot run because of the ball’s movement, or is the majority of Spot’s movement independant of the ball’s motion?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Shame that the best performing countries in the OECD hardly fluoridate water. And the ones which do are well down the list. Yes, I’m sure that must be “confounding” for you.

                      It’s very amusing you break out the “heart attack” diversion. We’re talking about fluoridation and dental health, not your red herrings.

                    • McFlock

                      Shame that the best performing countries in the OECD hardly fluoridate water.

                      Therefore, if we remove fluoridation we will have the best teeth in the world? :roll:

                      SPOILER ALERT: when you get to page five, you’ll get the point. And understand that “confounding” also has a specific technical meaning. idiot.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      lol McFlock, keep kowtowing to your orthodoxy mate, however it seems like half of the country’s water supply does not.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Therefore, if we remove fluoridation we will have the best teeth in the world? :roll:

                      Oh no, nothing that drastic. Just suggesting that the effect of water fluoridation is relatively small and that there should be a permanent moratorium on any additional water fluoridation schemes.

                    • McFlock

                      keep kowtowing to your orthodoxy mate

                      lol
                      That’s the CV equivalent of:

                      *****
                      *****
                      *****
                      SYNTAX ERROR
                      *****
                      RUNTIME FAIL
                      *****
                      REDO FROM START
                      *****
                      *****
                      *****

                    • McFlock

                      Just suggesting that the effect of water fluoridation is relatively small and that there should be a permanent moratorium on any additional water fluoridation schemes.

                      Ah, we’re moving again after the restart.

                      I’m figuring that the “there should be a permanent moratorium” clause is just a rehash of “the germans don’t do it, so we shouldn’t”. Fairly stupid argument.

                      As for the “effect of water fluoridation is relatively small”, we can eliminate or reduce many confounding factors by comparing like with like.

                      Fluoridated vs non-fluoridated areas show a significant increase in tooth quality in fluoridated areas. Certainly not conclusive in itself, but much stronger than “the germans stopped fluoridating and have better teeth than us”. The access to dentists is equivalent, for a start (as opposed to a difference of somethng like 47/100kpop versus 77/100kpop).

                    • Colonial Viper

                      lol

                      one additional cavity free kid out of every 25 children; no real positive impact on adults. That’s what I call slight. The effect is greater in poorer deprived areas of course, and far less in wealthier areas.

                      Plus, children get more than enough fluoride from just brushing, which is most of them.

                    • McFlock

                      one additional cavity free kid out of every 25 children; no real positive impact on adults. That’s what I call slight.

                      900,000 kids 0-14 in NZ according to NZStat.
                      36,000 more kids moving into adulthood with all their teeth.

                      But even if think of those 36,000 as “slight”, what about the others who have significantly, detectably improved (but not quite perfect) teeth? Why do you ignore those kids? Do you not care about them, either?

                      Plus, children get more than enough fluoride from just brushing, which is most of them.

                      the fact that there are differences between fluoridated and non-fluoridated areas suggests otherwise.

                      But then you can measure your daily milligram dose of fluoride simply by how heavy your brush feels. /sarc

                    • Colonial Viper

                      900,000 kids 0-14 in NZ according to NZStat.
                      36,000 more kids moving into adulthood with all their teeth.

                      You really are an insidiously and deliberately misleading prick. The measure includes not just missing but also decayed and cavitied teeth.

                      the fact that there are differences between fluoridated and non-fluoridated areas suggests otherwise.

                      Nah, you’re being confounded again. Those differences in effect shrink even further when you excise out at risk groups eg. Maori children. BTW as I have said before, I have no issue with water fluoridation in areas where socioeconomic status is worst and cavity counts are high.

                      But then you can measure your daily milligram dose of fluoride simply by how heavy your brush feels. /sarc

                      Of course I can, can’t you? /sarc

                    • McFlock

                      lol CORRECTION

                      Your “one in twenty-five” ratio, where did you get that from? Because the MoH data in the post is 8%, not 4%.

                      So that’s 72,000 kids with caries-free teeth, not 36,000. Still “slight” to you, no doubt. And tens of thousands with better (but not perfect, teeth), of course.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      lol wrong as usual McFlock. Shame you can’t read graphs.

                    • McFlock

                      You really are an insidiously and deliberately misleading prick.

                      lol. A gentle disagreement with some phrasing, perchance? Still, it is a significant difference. Better heavy-metal fillings in a five-year old’s mouth (do they still use mercury?) than a little bit of fluoride in the water.

                      So we’ll make it “72,000 kids with all their teeth in perfect condition“. Better?

                      Those differences in effect shrink even further when you excise out at risk groups eg. Maori children.

                      Yes indeed. We get a much clearer picture of the effects on New Zealand children when we choose to ignore 20% of New Zealand children. /sarc

                      Those differences in effect shrink even further when you excise out at risk groups eg. Maori children. BTW as I have said before, I have no issue with water fluoridation in areas where socioeconomic status is worst and cavity counts are high.

                      I agree that you’ve mentioned several times that you’re happy to impose “forced mass medication” on Maori communities. Just not the, er, “more affluent” communities.

                      lol wrong as usual McFlock. Shame you can’t read graphs.

                      Not graphs. The table in the post. “Effect of fluoridation of % carries free and mdmf”. Here, I’ll repeat it for you:

                      Effect of fluoridation of % carries free and mdmf
                      Year 8

                      ……………………Total Maori
                      Carries free (%)
                      8.86 10.42
                      MDMF*……..…… -0.48 -0.81

                      5 years

                      ……………………Total Maori
                      Carries free (%)
                      8.05 12.46
                      MDMF*……..…… -0.63 -1.38

                      Seriously, were you trying to estimate “4%” off a graph? That’s bold of you. But I’ll compromise and take that as the lower bound of the estimate, and the 2002-11 aggregate data would be the upper end (if the 2007 step-change is accurate rather than a systemic data quality change).

                      So that’s 36,000 to 72,000 kids with all their teeth in perfect condition.

                      By the way, how do you know that your daily dosage of fluoride is in the sweet spot between “enough” and “metabolic fluoride overload”, Doctor Viper?

        • Colonial Viper 15.1.1.2

          That sounds about right, Macro. Water fluoridation is a big and very blunt tool. Many countries have determined ways to use fluoride to improve dental health in a more intelligently targeted and selective way.

    • Macro 15.2

      That is actually the rate for treating the water supply.

      The main source of Hydro FluoroSilicic acid, in NZ is from fertiliser works.

      http://www.cdc.gov/fluoridation/fact_sheets/engineering/wfadditives.htm
      ‘Most fluoride additives used in the United States are produced from phosphorite rock. Phosphorite is used primarily in the manufacture of phosphate fertilizer. Phosphorite contains calcium phosphate mixed with limestone (calcium carbonates) minerals and apatite—a mineral with high phosphate and fluoride content. It is refluxed (heated) with sulfuric acid to produce a phosphoric acid-gypsum (calcium sulfate-CaSO4) slurry.

      The heating process releases hydrogen fluoride (HF) and silicon tetrafluoride (SiF4) gases which are captured by vacuum evaporators. These gases are then condensed to a water-based solution of 23% FSA with the remainder as water.

      Approximately 95% of FSA used for water fluoridation comes from this process. The remaining 5% of FSA is generated during the manufacture of hydrogen fluoride or from the use of hydrogen fluoride in the manufacturing of solar panels and electronics.”

      Thames (where I live) gets its FSA from a fertiliser company in Tauranga.

      Because it is highly toxic you aren’t allowed to dump it in rivers, land fill, or the ocean. But you can get councils to pay for it and add it to the public drinking water.

      • McFlock 15.2.1

        Because it is highly toxic you aren’t allowed to dump it in rivers, land fill, or the ocean. But you can get councils to pay for it and add it to the public drinking water.

        When was the last time anyone “dumped” anything at <1ppm?

        • Macro 15.2.1.1

          ????????? did i say that?

          • Colonial Viper 15.2.1.1.1

            McFlock is an expert dissembler. Watch him.

            Fluoridating water is a good way for corporates to earn a few bucks selling what would otherwise be a manufacturing waste by-product.

            • McFlock 15.2.1.1.1.1

              “expert dissembler”
              Yeah, pointing out that you don’t understand the big words you try to use is such a dirty trick.

              • Colonial Viper

                McFlock my good man, you’re intellectually clever yet quite arrogant at the same time. Keep drinking the (fluoridated) Kool Aid. Thankfully, about 50% of NZers and 95% of the EU are not.

          • McFlock 15.2.1.1.2

            Oh, so you were saying that if something is illegal to be dumped into waterways at 23% concentration, it’s relevance to <0.0001% concentration in the water supply is …?

            • Colonial Viper 15.2.1.1.2.1

              More dissembling.

              Starting point 23% but 1km down the stream <0.1%

              Still not allowed to do it

              • McFlock

                now who’s “dissembling”?
                It’s the effect of dumping they give a shit about. Not the inconsequential concentrations a km down the line.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Oh don’t get snotty just because I’m using the same tricks as you

                  • McFlock

                    I know you can’t tell the difference, but no, you’re not.
                    I actually try to demonstrate a point, in this case the fact that dumping 23% fluoride is not the same as “dumping” 99.99%pure water. With one they’re concerned about killing the fish and flora, in the other they just give a shit about flow rates.

  16. Macro 16

    I am well aware of what i did say and i never said that! Previously the stuff was vented into the atmosphere causing people animals and plants living around the works to die or get very sick. So they had to strip it from their exhausts (using the process I linked to above) and leaving the works with a load of highly toxic material.

  17. Tangled up in blue 17

    Great post, thank you.
    \
    Imo it’s important to illustrate that the anti-fluoride crowd aren’t typical of the left-wing but rather an irrational few out on the peripheral.

  18. RonL 18

    “Mr Johnson said last week that the government believed that adding fluoride to drinking water was “an effective and relatively easy way to help address health inequalities—giving children from poorer backgrounds a dental health boost that can last a lifetime.”

    But some of the scientists who led the research that the government commissioned into fluoridation argue that the move is premature, and they accuse the Department of Health of selecting data to fit its agenda.

    In 1999 the department commissioned the University of York’s NHS Centre for Reviews and Dissemination to review the available evidence. Although that review found no conclusive evidence of harm, the researchers attributed this result to weak studies and to the difficulty of detecting small, delayed health effects. The researchers found some evidence of reduction in dental caries but were unable to conclude that fluoridation reduces social inequalities in dental health.

    Iain Chalmers, editor of the James Lind Library in Oxford, who sat on the York study’s review panel, said, “I’m very disappointed that the Department of Health apparently thinks no further research is necessary before taking such a step. If there’s one message that emerged from the York review, it’s that better quality evidence is needed.”

    Iain Chalmers and Trevor Sheldon of York University, who led the York review, laid out the uncertainties surrounding fluoridation in a BMJ article last October (2007;335:699-702 doi: 10.1136/bmj.39318.562951.BE). Professor Sheldon also questioned the government’s use of data from another study in a letter to the BMJ (2007;335:840-1 doi: 10.1136/bmj.39374.404502.BE).”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2244726/

  19. RonL 19

    Ken Perrott claims that the graph showing downward trends in both fluoridated and non-fluoridated countries is not evidence-based,

    The British Medical Journal presnted an even more compelling one… it’s authors include the father of evidence-based medicine.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2001050/pdf/bmj-335-7622-ac-00699.pdf

    [lprent: Actually Ken did not say that. What he said was that the graph was useless cherry-picking because they only showed two points per country and only looked at a single factor ignoring all other changes in dental practice and hygiene in those countries. And yes I have read your comments over at OP with a certain amount of disbelief that Ken was so nice to you...

    ..father of evidence-based..

    You don't help your credibility nor encourage people to read your links when you use this kind of florid dumbarse bullshit. It just makes you look like you have a limited grip on reality.

    Whoever was the "father of evidence-based medicine" has been dead for centuries and probably never wrote a single article for a medical journal. Those are a comparatively recent institution. I'd suggest that you look back at either the greeks or the late 18th century as the most likely periods that such a mythical personage lived in.

    And I'd suggest that you read our policy. Putting words into the mouth of an author is likely to get you booted by a moderator so hard that the ring of freshness you taste in your mouth will be anal in origin... (and not from the usual male bovine origin).

    BTW: welcome to the blog :twisted: You may find it a bit less "polite" than you are used to... ]

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    MUNZ | 27-07
  • Government needs to get Fishing reform bill passed now
    The Maritime Union is urging the Government to push through the Fisheries (Foreign Charter Vessels and Other Matters) Amendment Bill to protect workers from exploitation and abuse....
    MUNZ | 27-07
  • Womensfest at UOA
    Apologies for lateness!...
    The Hand Mirror | 27-07
  • Update on the Downtown Shopping Centre
    There’s a good article up on the Herald website today, with an update on what’s happening with the Downtown Shopping Centre. I’d suggest heading over there and checking it out. The article notes that “Precinct [Properties] expects to release images...
    Transport Blog | 27-07
  • Party Lists – Election 2014
    . . ACT Party 1. Dr Jamie Whyte 2. Kenneth Wang 3. Robin Grieve 4. Beth Houlbrooke 5. Don Nicolson 6. Stephen Berry 7. Dasha Kovalenko 8. Gareth Veale 9. Ian Cummings 10. Sara Muti 11. Toni Severin 12. Max...
    Frankly Speaking | 27-07
  • Party Lists – Election 2014
    . . ACT Party 1. Dr Jamie Whyte 2. Kenneth Wang 3. Robin Grieve 4. Beth Houlbrooke 5. Don Nicolson 6. Stephen Berry 7. Dasha Kovalenko 8. Gareth Veale 9. Ian Cummings 10. Sara Muti 11. Toni Severin 12. Max...
    Frankly Speaking | 27-07
  • I am still waiting for my cheque
    I have often said I wonder how some of the anti-science propagandists sleep straight in their beds at night. Lately this refers to various members of the local anti-fluoridation movement and their claims. Pity I am not the litigious sort – there...
    Open Parachute | 26-07
  • Yet Another National MP Spending Tens of Thousands of Tax Payers Money…
    The list of National MP’s whose arrogance is beyond measure, grows … “National list MP Paul Foster-Bell is defending a huge spike in his taxpayer-funded expenses as he campaigned for a seat selection. Wellington-based Foster-Bell’s spending increased from $7459 between...
    An average kiwi | 26-07
  • National Party Plans on Near-Starving Hospital Patients to Save Money
    Yes, the National Party continues destroying the Health system and now it’s patients with it! Article below from the ODT Warning over hospital food cutbacks Nutrition experts have warned a government cost-cutting team that patients could suffer malnutrition or even...
    An average kiwi | 26-07
  • Northcote Walking and Cycling improvements
    Auckland Transport are starting consultation tomorrow for a series of walking and cycling improvements to Northcote. All up there will be 5.2km of improvements from the intersection of Taharoto Road and Northcote Road through to the Northcote Ferry Terminal. Along with improving cycling facilities...
    Transport Blog | 26-07
  • Thankfully, Tories are ALWAYS wrong
    Back in 2008, 2009 and 2010, were we not assured, absolutely assured, that debt rising above 90% of GDP would send the economy into a deathly death spiral and lead to death?Indeed, ladies and gentlement, you had better hope the...
    Left hand palm | 26-07
  • 2014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #30B
    14 concepts that will be obsolete after catastrophic climate change Abrupt climate shifts in the past offer warning for future Changing human behavior is major factor in selling cleaner cars, curbing congestion China’s energy plans will worsen climate change, Greenpeace...
    Skeptical Science | 26-07
  • French Lessons
    Aux Armes Citoyens! Exacerbating Labour's current difficulties is the unfinished character of the rank-and-file's 2012 revolution. It was as if the revolutionary crowds of Paris, having torn down the Bastille, then decided to build it back up again!“APRÈS MOI, LE...
    Bowalley Road | 26-07
  • Most politicians don’t care about elderly
    Back at the end of June the New Zealand Aged Care Association ran a full paged advert in the NZ Herald concerning a number of questions they wanted politicians to answer. They also sent each party a letter outlining their...
    The Jackal | 26-07
  • I wish you all solidarity
    On Thursday night was my valedictory speech in Parliament – the last official word of my nearly nine years as a Labour MP. Valedictories are rites of passage.  Some of us will be remembered.  Most of us won’t, until we...
    Red Alert | 26-07
  • Billboards
    We drove out to Porirua today and back through the Wellington commuter suburbs: Johnsonville, Ngaio etc. There was a scattering of billboards around, almost all of which were TeamKey/National billboards. Here’s a picture of the cluster near to where I live on...
    DimPost | 26-07
  • Billboards
    We drove out to Porirua today and back through the Wellington commuter suburbs: Johnsonville, Ngaio etc. There was a scattering of billboards around, almost all of which were TeamKey/National billboards. Here’s a picture of the cluster near to where I live on...
    DimPost | 26-07
  • Reconcile this, please, Mr Coleman
    National’s Jonathan Coleman has some explaining to do. He has stated that: “Ministers had absolutely no knowledge of any pending FBI-NZ Police investigation.” The NZ Herald reports that Immigration NZ received a detailed briefing regarding the FBI’s interest in Kim Dotcom, ahead...
    Occasionally erudite | 26-07
  • Much to fight for in the Maori seats
    We all know it could be a fight to the death in the Maori seats this election, but it's startling to think that some candidates are borrowing money off their mortgages just to be able to stand at this election.It seems...
    Pundit | 26-07
  • A plea to all Labour Party activists
    Let's focus on being unfocused. Hey, maybe it will work....
    Imperator Fish | 26-07
  • Hosking hits back
    Greetings and salutations to you all. I’m broadcaster and National Party stalwart Mike Hosking and I just wanted to take a bit of time out of my busy Saturday eating Gruyère cheese and supping trim latte’s to speak on a...
    My Thinks | 26-07
  • The CRL and City Centre Office Shortages
    When the government finally announced they would support the CRL – but starting in 2020 – they listed two targets that would need to be on track to being met to bring construction forward. Rail Patronage to double to 20...
    Transport Blog | 26-07
  • A tale of two meetings…continued
    Last week I pointed out the marked difference between how many people are attending National's campaign meetings compared to the Internet Mana party's and thought a follow-up on how things are going is in order. Unfortunately for National thing's aren't...
    The Jackal | 25-07
  • Minister shouldn’t stop Fish and Game doing its job
    It seems that Conservation Minister Nick Smith has again been caught out interfering to allow more pollution in our rivers, the Green Party said today. Last year the Department of Conservation submission on the proposed Ruataniwha Dam was suppressed after...
    Greens | 28-07
  • Public deserves electoral integrity
    National's deals with spent political forces ACT and United Future will be met with a deepening sense of unease over the manipulation of MMP, Labour Leader David Cunliffe says."These parties have no electoral mandate and will return to Parliament only...
    Labour | 28-07
  • Out of control costs raise questions about National Science Challenges
    Amid strong criticism of the value of the National Science Challenges from some of the country’s senior scientists, new figures show administrative costs are skyrocketing while the level of investment in actual science remains a mystery, says Labour’s Innovation, Research...
    Labour | 28-07
  • Low build numbers and faulty repairs: what has Brownlee been doing?
    Despite being a man in a hurry new figures show just 2160 new homes, thousands fewer than needed, have been built under Gerry Brownlee in the last two years, say Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford and EQC spokesperson Clayton Cosgrove....
    Labour | 28-07
  • Joyce’s heavy hand stifling innovation
    The National Government should allow scientists and businesses to get on with innovation rather than allow Steven Joyce's heavy hand to direct it, Green Party Co-leader Dr Russel Norman said today. Dr Norman was responding to reports today that several...
    Greens | 27-07
  • CERA spends almost $2m on 7000 flights
    CERA has spent $1.8 million on 7286 flights from Christchurch to Wellington in three years – a huge waste of money as Cantabrians still wait for solutions, Labour’s EQC spokesperson Clayton Cosgrove says. “Of course CERA officials do need to...
    Labour | 27-07
  • Nick Smith oversteps the mark yet again
    Nick Smith has yet again completely overstepped the mark as a minister – this time with a threat to muzzle Fish and Game if they don’t keep in line with Government’s views, says Labour’s Conservation spokesperson Ruth Dyson. “Nick Smith...
    Labour | 27-07
  • Georgina Beyer to stand for MANA in Te Tai Tonga
    “It’s great to have Georgie on board” said Hone Harawira, MANA Leader and Te Tai Tokerau MP.  ”She’s strong-minded, stands up to be counted, and has fought for the rights of those who haven’t had any – and won.  That...
    Mana | 27-07
  • Green Party launches plan to protect our beaches from oil spills
    The Green Party today launched its plan to protect New Zealand beaches from oil spills. The plan is the second component of the Party's environmental priority this election: Rivers clean enough to swim in again, and beaches safe from oil...
    Greens | 26-07
  • Auckland rail use spike shows need to start link now
    The Green Party today welcomes Auckland Transport figures showing rail patronage has soared by 23 percent in June from June 2013, demonstrating both the value of electrification and the need to immediately get cracking building the Auckland City Rail link."We...
    Greens | 25-07
  • Soaring rail use in Auckland shows need for rail link now
    The Green Party today welcomes Auckland Transport figures showing rail patronage has soared by 23 percent in June from June 2013, demonstrating both the value of electrification and the need to immediately get cracking building the Auckland City Rail link."We...
    Greens | 25-07
  • Puhoi-Warkworth decision doesn’t stack up
    The Board of Inquiry decision on the Puhoi-Warkworth motorway gives the green light to a project that doesn’t stack up, says Labour’s Transport spokesperson Phil Twyford. “Labour would spend $320 million immediately to fix the accident black spots, put in...
    Labour | 25-07
  • Key must stand Brownlee down during investigation
    The wise thing for the Prime Minister to do is ask Gerry Brownlee to hand in his transport warrant and to stand him down for the duration of the CAA investigation, Labour Leader David Cunliffe says. “It’s not good enough...
    Labour | 25-07
  • Puhoi highway won’t help Northland roads
    The draft decision by the Environmental Protection Agency to grant resource consent to the proposed $1.65 billion Puhoi motorway doesn't stop it being a waste of money, the Green Party said today. "The Puhoi motorway is an unnecessary waste of...
    Greens | 25-07
  • Green Party to focus on issues not sideshows
    The Green Party has launched its creative for the 2014 election; Love New Zealand. The Green Party campaign focuses on the issues where there is concern that we do not love New Zealand enough; our increasingly polluted environment, increased poverty...
    Greens | 25-07
  • Coleman must come clean about FBI briefing
    Former Immigration Minister Jonathan Coleman must come clean about when he was told the FBI was investigating Kim Dotcom, Labour’s Associate Security and Intelligence spokesperson Grant Robertson says. “Jonathan Coleman has previously said ministers were not aware of the American...
    Labour | 25-07
  • Regional economies need tailored plans
    News that up to 114 jobs could be lost from Fonterra’s Canpac plant in Hamilton reinforces the need for a government plan to build resilient regional economies, Labour’s MP for Hauraki-Waikato Nanaia Mahuta says. “The Canpac site has effectively responded...
    Labour | 25-07
  • Kiwis to get the final vote on amalgamation
    New Zealanders will get the right to have a final say on any proposed local body amalgamations, says Labour’s local government spokesperson Su’a William Sio releasing Labour’s Local Government policy today....
    Labour | 24-07
  • Dr Rajen Prasad’s Valedictory Statement
    Draft Hansard Parliamentary Record. Subject to correction. Bula vinaka. Namaste, Mr Assistant Speaker. Thank you very much. Tēnā koe. I am a lucky migrant and am privileged to have received as much as I have from this country for over...
    Labour | 24-07
  • Darien Fenton’s Valedictory Statement
    Nga mihi nui - kia koutou. I acknowledge all Members of Parliament I have served with and I do so without rancour or criticism. Over nearly nine years in parliament I’ve found that despite furious debate about political difference, most...
    Labour | 24-07
  • Immigation and Kim Dotcom – Harawira
    “I just got a call from National Business Review reporter, asking whether there was any contradiction between my thoughts on immigration in 2009 and now, particularly given MANA’s newly minted relationship with Kim Dotcom” said MANA leader and Tai Tokerau...
    Mana | 24-07
  • Nats to announce 2nd crossing without rail
    Labour Transport spokesperson Phil Twyford says it has been leaked to him that John Key will rule out a rail option when announcing an accelerated timeframe for Auckland’s $5 billion second harbour crossing next month. “I understand the Government’s plan...
    Labour | 24-07
  • “They put Maori centre stage” – Harawira
    “I’m sorry I can’t be at parliament for the valedictory speeches of Tariana Turia and Pita Sharples” said Hone Harawira, MANA Leader and MP for Tai Tokerau, ”but I’d like to add my own best wishes as they reach the end...
    Mana | 24-07
  • ACT trying to have it both ways on zoning
    ACT Party candidate David Seymour’s campaign against changes to school zones in the Epsom electorate looks hollow given his party’s commitment to the abolition of school zoning altogether, Labour’s Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins says. “It’s disingenuous for David Seymour to...
    Labour | 24-07
  • Interest rate rise will hit the regions
    The latest interest rate rise will hit the fragile regional economies of  New Zealand and hurt exporters by putting more upward pressure on the exchange rate, says Labour’s Finance spokesperson David Parker.  “The regions are already hit by dropping  export...
    Labour | 24-07
  • Burning the flag or accepting the evil
    Burning the Israeli flag in Auckland in protest over the murder of innocent civilians in Gaza is nothing to be ashamed of” said MANA Leader and Tai Tokerau MP, Hone Harawira. “Calling for both sides to stand down when one side...
    Mana | 23-07
  • Photo op disguises abysmal failure
    John Key’s opening of four Housing NZ units in Bexley today is nothing more than an insincere photo op designed to hide the Government’s failure to rebuild the housing stock destroyed by the earthquakes, says Labour’s Associate Housing spokesperson Poto...
    Labour | 23-07
  • TAXPAYER UNION “outrageously stupid”
    Jordan Williams, Executive Director of the Taxpayers’ Union says a MANA billboard “appears to have been funded by taxpayers”, and calls it “an outrageous use of taxpayer money”. “But the only thing that is outrageous, is how outrageously stupid Jordan Williams was...
    Mana | 23-07
  • Green Party launches Solar in Schools policy
    The Green Party will help schools install solar and save money on their power bills by investing $20 million into solar PV systems in schools. The $20 million is expected to:Help around 500 schools install solar over three yearsResult in...
    Greens | 23-07
  • Extent of job losses at Invermay remain hidden
    Despite growing concern in the agriculture and science sectors, both AgResearch management and the Minister responsible are continuing to hide the true extent of job losses at AgResearch’s Invermay campus, Labour’s MP for Dunedin North David Clark says. “Science and...
    Labour | 23-07
  • Tōku reo, tōku oho oho, tōku reo, tōku mapihi maurea – MANA launches ...
    “MANA is launching its te reo Māori policy this morning ahead of the first reading of the government’s Māori Language Strategy Bill this afternoon”, saidMANA deputy leader and candidate for Waiariki, Annette Sykes. “MANA’s policy is based on a love...
    Mana | 23-07
  • Connectivity Upgrade to close digital divide
    Labour will close the digital divide with its Connectivity Upgrade to ensure all New Zealanders can be part of a growing, more connected economy and have the right to access quality broadband, Labour Leader David Cunliffe says.  “The digital revolution...
    Labour | 23-07
  • New parents deserve support – Labour will deliver
    ...
    Labour | 23-07
  • National refuses meeting with Maui’s advocates
    National has refused a briefing from a group of Maui's dolphins experts, whose research shows 80 per cent of New Zealanders want greater protection for the critically endangered dolphin, the Green Party said today.Dolphin campaigner Gemma McGrath and marine scientist...
    Greens | 23-07
  • MANA Tamaki send a challenge to Labour
    “Labour should set the agenda and purposely do something positively controversial once a week”, said MANA candidate for Mt Albert, Joe Carolan. “A good start would be for all Labour Auckland MPs and members to join the Justice for Palestine...
    Mana | 23-07
  • We must act to save our dolphins
    A new report makes it clear for the urgent need to protect Maui’s and Hector’s dolphins while arguing  it is clear that there is no need for further research, says Labour’s Conservation spokesperson Ruth Dyson.  “Labour backs the public call...
    Labour | 23-07
  • School told to manipulate national standards data
    Parents can have little confidence in the Government’s National Standards after an Auckland school was told to manipulate its data so it added up, Labour’s Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins. “Valley School in Pukekohe was advised in an email from the...
    Labour | 23-07
  • Regional economies must have tailored plans
    News that up to 114 jobs could be lost from Fonterra’s Canpac plant in Hamilton reinforces the need for a government plan to build resilient regional economies, Labour’s MP for Hauraki-Waikato Nanaia Mahuta says. “The Canpac site has effectively responded...
    Labour | 23-07
  • Auditor General slams Shared Services project
    The Auditor-General’s Office could not have been more damning about the 18 months spent on the Central Agency Shared Services (CASS) project at the Finance and Expenditure Committee this morning, says Maryan Street, Labour’s State Services spokesperson.  ...
    Labour | 23-07
  • Fonterra job losses a massive blow to Waikato
    The potential loss of up to 114 jobs from Fonterra’s Canpac plant in Hamilton is a massive blow to the Waikato region which has already lost hundreds of jobs, Labour says. Labour’s Social Development spokesperson and Hamilton-based list MP Sue...
    Labour | 23-07
  • Basin flyover decision an opportunity for capital
    The decision to reject the proposed flyover at the Basin Reserve must be taken as an opportunity to properly fund Wellington’s transport future and must not be used as an excuse to take resources away from the capital, Wellington Labour MPs...
    Labour | 22-07
  • National out of touch with the regions
    John Key is out of touch with regional New Zealand if he believes tinkering with council regulations will restore opportunities to small towns, Labour Leader David Cunliffe says. “While the regions are crying out for sustainable growth and job opportunities,...
    Labour | 22-07
  • Flyover rejection a victory for sustainable transport
    The rejection of the proposed Basin Reserve flyover by a Board of Inquiry is a victory for sustainable transport in Wellington and paves the way for other alternatives to be given a fair hearing, Wellington Labour MPs Grant Robertson and...
    Labour | 22-07
  • Reo Māori Policy Launch
    MANA will be launching its Reo Māori policy at 10am Thursday 24 July, at Matangireia (the old Māori Affairs Select Committee room at Parliament). We will also be addressing our concerns regarding the Minister of Māori Affairs Māori Language Strategy...
    Mana | 22-07
  • Basin Flyover decision victory for common sense
    The Green Party welcomed the Environmental Protection Authority's draft decision announced today not to allow the $90 million Basin Reserve flyover in Wellington to proceed."Both popular and expert opinion opposed the flyover. The proposal was expensive, unnecessary and would have...
    Greens | 22-07
  • Loss Leading could destroy Kiwi lamb’s reputation
    Meat companies that supply supermarkets and sell New Zealand lamb as a loss leader in the United Kingdom should lose their access to this valuable quota market, said Labour’s Primary Industries spokesperson Damien O’Connor. “Our reputation as a Lamb producer...
    Labour | 22-07
  • Ae Marika! 22 July 2014
    The big storm has gone, but the damage that it did and the saturation levels that it reached meant that smaller storms quickly overwhelmed roading, and water-flow systems again in the north. And although certain individuals are talking up the...
    Mana | 21-07
  • 2014 Roger Award nominations now open
    The Roger Award is for The Worst Transnational Corporation Operating in Aotearoa/New Zealand in 2014 Nominations are now open please visit the website to nominate the worst TNC in Aotearoa. You will need to include reasons why you think your...
    Mana | 21-07
  • Labour will revive the regions with new fund
    The next Labour Government will co-develop Regional Growth Plans for every region of New Zealand and will invest at least $200 million in a fund to create breakthrough opportunities for jobs and sustainable growth, Labour Leader David Cunliffe says....
    Labour | 21-07
  • Speech to Local Government New Zealand
    Speech to the Local Government New Zealand Conference 2014 Read our full regional development policy Download Introduction Early in my time as an MP I went for a long walk on a windswept Kare Kare beach with Waitakere mayor Bob Harvey. We talked...
    Labour | 21-07
  • Something Fishy About Nick Smith’s Game.
    NICK SMITH’S crude intimidation of the Fish and Game Council points to the bleakest of environmental futures should National be re-elected on 20 September. It is now considerably clearer than 60 percent of New Zealand’s lakes, rivers and streams that...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Key’s odd personal hypocrisy in Epsom, his kiss of death to the Maori Par...
    Aside from tricking Colin Craig into running in an electorate National can crush him in, John Key has announced three things in his election deals that are ill thought out. The first is his deal with the Maori Party. At a time...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Why it’s all over for the Conservative Party
    Whatever flirtations were made months ago to Colin Craig by National strategists, the polling must have come back showing them too much of their soft urban vote would walk if Key was in Government with Colin Craig.  The necessary inside muscle to...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Balance in the NZ Herald and has something gone terribly wrong at the Heral...
    So the ‘balance’ in the NZ Herald this year for the election will be… Guest columnists will include the acerbic Cactus Kate from the radical right, former Labour candidate Josie Pagani and broadcaster Mark Sainsbury. Right, so that would be...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Phew – National Party hubris seals strategy
    The National Party are bot listening to Matthew Hooton. Phew. Hooton has crunched the numbers and based on past polling National always drops 6 points come election day. National aren’t listening. Barging through the need to cut deals with all...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Noam Chomsky on the TPPA
    Noam Chomsky on the TPPA...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Unacceptable secrecy around labelling people terrorists
    It’s good to see the Sunday Star-Times attempting to get more information from government agencies about Daryl Jones, the Kiwi killed in a US drone strike in Yemen.  The paper is right to complain about the government’s refusal to provide...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • A critical deconstruction of John Key – what’s behind the facade?
    Aspiring national leaders need a popular narrative of their rise to power.  Once in office, the narrative can be refined to fit the requirements of leadership and re-election.  Such is the purpose of John Roughan’s John Key: Portrait of  a...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Radio Live – off Mark
    The Top Marks lasted five weeks on Mediaworks radio station The Sound. This may have something to do with last being relevant in the mid-1980s when there were only two commercial FM licences in Auckland and they were on one...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Wellingtonians say ‘No!’ to Israeli aggression
    .   . Wellington, NZ, 26 July – About 600 Wellingtonians, and from further afield, met at the Cuba Mall Bucket fountain under a wintery sunny sky, to protest Israel’s continuing aggression in the Gaza strip, which – at the...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • GUEST BLOG: Shasha Ali – I am an indigenous person but I will never call ...
    Yesterday was indeed a politically hectic day in Aoteaora New Zealand, especially if you are an activist that cares about both human and non-human animal rights. Protest actions were organised to demand an end to factory farming from about noon, and...
    The Daily Blog | 26-07
  • Pro-Israel, Pro-Palestine or ‘Pro-Peace’?
    Latest protest for people of Gaza in Auckland In the past couple of weeks I have heard a lot of people say that they are neither Pro-Israel nor Pro-Palestine; they are pro-peace. This is a stand that I respect. Everyone...
    The Daily Blog | 26-07
  • So we can’t feed the kids, the poor OR the sick now?
    Let me get this straight. We can borrow $10 billion in tax cuts over the last 6 years for the richest NZers, but we can not feed the kids, the poor or even the sick now? Revealed: Warning over hospital food...
    The Daily Blog | 26-07
  • Kim Dotcom has said it, Laila Harre has said it and now David fisher says i...
    Fascinating piece by David Fisher in the NZ Herald breaking down how many opportunities the Government had to listen to officials and stop KDC entering the country and concludes KDC should never have been allowed in… It prepared papers for the...
    The Daily Blog | 25-07
  • You, Me and the GCSB Public Meetings
      The GCSB and TICS legislation rushed through Parliament by John Key represent the largest erosion of civil liberties this country has seen since the 1951 Waterfront Lockout. In the post Snowden world we now know a mass surveillance state operating...
    The Daily Blog | 25-07
  • A feminist takedown of Whale Oil
    Whale Oil does it again. How many more times is he going to attack and discredit Tania Billingsley publicly? In a short blog published on Wednesday ‘Nothing to be sorry for‘ Whale Oil also known as Cameron Slater, is defending John Key...
    The Daily Blog | 25-07
  • GUEST BLOG: Curwen Ares Rolinson – New Zealand First – We’ll Be Back
    Earlier this week, Bomber penned a missive which set out in some detail why he thought my people, New Zealand First, wouldn’t be making it back into Parliament later this year. Being a pugnacious, vindictive sort who’d never let such an...
    The Daily Blog | 25-07
  • The changes teachers DO want
    “Oh you teachers, you just want everything to stay the same – what’s wrong with choice?  Bloody teachers.  Typical that you don’t want testing – trying to hide that you’re all useless. What about our poor kids?  Gnash gnash rant rant...” That’s...
    The Daily Blog | 25-07
  • A feminist take down of Whale Oil
    Whale Oil does it again. How many more times is he going to attack and discredit Tania Billingsley publicly? In a short blog published on Wednesday Nothing to be sorry for Whale Oil also known as Cameron Slater, is defending John Key...
    The Daily Blog | 25-07
  • On so called Labour Party ‘distractions’
    The right wing of the Labour Party are constructing a narrative that Labour need to stop chasing distractions and focus on the real issues that matter and not these silly GCSB, inequality, domestic violence, media bias, TPPA issues. It is...
    The Daily Blog | 25-07
  • Selfies: Labour’s Electorate MPs are at it again
    IT’S A LITTLE TRIANGLE of grass at the corner of Rewa Street and Mt Eden Road, ideal for election hoardings. Wandering along Mt Eden Road last Saturday morning to our weekly appointment with the brunch menu at Orvieto, my family and...
    The Daily Blog | 25-07
  • Well, well, well – Jonathan Coleman did know about FBI interest into Kim ...
    Last years GCSB Town Hall meeting in Auckland Oh dear, the cover up and lies are starting to fall over now aren’t they… Coleman knew of FBI interest in Dotcom pre-residency decisionGovernment minister Jonathan Coleman knew the FBI was interested...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • Why You Must March Against Factory Farming This Saturday, 12pm
    The rally this Saturday is critical because this is the FIRST TIME IN NEW ZEALAND HISTORY that a major party has agreed to ban all intensive factory farming practices. The Labour party, the Greens, Internet-Mana, the SPCA, SAFE and other...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • Astronaut tweets photo of explosions over Israel and Gaza from space
      This is what a war zone looks like from space: From aboard the International Space Station, German astronaut Alexander Gerst tweeted this image as the station passed over Israel and Gaza in what he called ‘his saddest photo yet’....
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • When Firstline are focusing on flag burning rather than dead Palestinian ch...
    The IDF are butchering children in UN schools this morning and what’s the big issue on TV3s Firstline? Flag burning. How pathetic, and what a slap in the face to Mike McRoberts who is currently risking his life in Gaza...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • ‘Victim’ vs ‘Terrorist’
    ‘Victim’ vs ‘Terrorist’...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • Petition asking TVNZ to stand Hosking down as election moderator jumps to o...
    In just a day the petition calling on TVNZ to replace Hosking as the election moderator has jumped to over 2500, you can sign it here. The defence that the Right are trying to run here is that John Campbell...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • When the mainstream media go feral: the descent into sheer farce, according...
    . . It had to happen, I guess… The media pack-campaign against Labour Leader David Cunliffe has managed to  plumb new depths of absurdity. On TV3, on 24 July,  TV3/Tova O’Brien ran this report on their 6PM News bulletin, about...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • Coalition for Better Broadcasting: MIKE HOSKING FOR PM?
    Yes indeed. Mike Hosking is for the PM. And now he’s able to do even more as moderator (or should that be immoderator) of TVNZ’s election debates. Here at the Coalition for Better Broadcasting we feel it’s pretty safe to say that...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • The lie that “There is no alternative” to neo-liberal economic policies
    Supporters of President Maduro in Venezuela rally   Since the 1980s we have had drubbed into our heads that there was no alternative to the economic and social policies unleashed at that time. It even had it’s own acronym – TINA. The...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • A Kanaky tale of mining skulduggery and environmental courage
    Florent Eurisouké … still campaigning against mining. Photo: Del Abcede/PMC David Robie also blogs at Café Pacific AN EXTRAORDINARY story of mining skulduggery and a courageous struggle by indigenous Kanak environmental campaigners has been captured in a poignant new documentary,...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • UNBREAKING: The list of questions Mike Hosking will use in first TVNZ leade...
    “Good evening ladies and gentlemen and welcome to the first TVNZ leaders debate being held live in the gloriously beautiful Sky City ball room. It’s such a beautiful building boys and girls, we are so blessed to have Sky City...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • Internet Party Party review
      I have been to A LOT of political party functions in my time, and they tend to be dull affairs at the best of times but what is happening with Internet MANA is something quite exciting. I went to...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • Dear Seven Sharp – after learning Hosking will be the leaders debate ...
    I have to be honest, I had made the decision last night  to accept Seven Sharp’s hastily offered opportunity to appear on their show after I savagely criticised the bullshit whitewash story they did on John Key’s favourite far right hate speech...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • National refuses meeting with Maui’s advocates
    MIL OSI – Source: Green Party – Headline: National refuses meeting with Maui’s advocates Wednesday, 23 Jul 2014 | Press Release This is another reminder that the National Government does not care about the survival of the Maui’s dolphin National...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Message from CTU President Helen Kelly
    MIL OSI – Source: Unite Union – Headline: Message from CTU President Helen Kelly Dear MikeThere’s only 43 days until September 3, when voting in the General Election starts. The last day to vote is September 20.Thanks heaps for signing...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • MANA Tamaki send a challenge to Labour
    MIL OSI – Source: Mana Movement – Headline: MANA Tamaki send a challenge to Labour Posted on July 23, 2014 by admin in Joe Carolan, Press Releases“Labour should set the agenda and purposely do something positively controversial once a week”,...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • We must act to save our dolphins
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: We must act to save our dolphins A new report makes it clear for the urgent need to protect Maui’s and Hector’s dolphins while arguing  it is clear that there is no...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • School told to manipulate national standards data
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: School told to manipulate national standards data Parents can have little confidence in the Government’s National Standards after an Auckland school was told to manipulate its data so it added up, Labour’s...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Regional economies must have tailored plans
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: Regional economies must have tailored plans News that up to 114 jobs could be lost from Fonterra’s Canpac plant in Hamilton reinforces the need for a government plan to build resilient regional...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Auditor General slams Shared Services project
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: Auditor General slams Shared Services project The Auditor-General’s Office could not have been more damning about the 18 months spent on the Central Agency Shared Services (CASS) project at the Finance and...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Fonterra job losses a massive blow to Waikato
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: Fonterra job losses a massive blow to Waikato The potential loss of up to 114 jobs from Fonterra’s Canpac plant in Hamilton is a massive blow to the Waikato region which has...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Basin flyover decision an opportunity for capital
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: Basin flyover decision an opportunity for capital The decision to reject the proposed flyover at the Basin Reserve must be taken as an opportunity to properly fund Wellington’s transport future and must...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Indonesia: New President Widodo must make good on human rights pledges
    MIL OSI – Source: Amnesty International NZ – Headline: Indonesia: New President Widodo must make good on human rights pledges Indonesia’s new President Joko Widodo must deliver on campaign promises to improve Indonesia’s dire human rights situation, Amnesty International said....
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Communities in Sierra Leone turn their backs on female genital mutilation
    MIL OSI – Source: Amnesty International NZ – Headline: Communities in Sierra Leone turn their backs on female genital mutilation While activists gather in London to discuss strategies to tackle female genital mutilation, communities across Sierra Leone have been taking...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • The Gambia: Activists mark 20 years of iron-fisted repression
    MIL OSI – Source: Amnesty International NZ – Headline: The Gambia: Activists mark 20 years of iron-fisted repression The Gambian government must abolish the laws and iron fisted practices that have resulted in two decades of widespread human rights violations,...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • A blog from the front lines of Palestine: It’s time for a new narrative
    I don’t know if I follow trouble or if trouble follows me, but somehow I seem to have found myself near one of the world’s hotspots again. The difference this time is that instead of sitting in some obscure location,...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • GUEST BLOG: Michael Wood – The Path Ahead
    It’s well established that Labour has had a difficult couple of weeks. Getting back on to a successful path requires our focus to shift from looking inwards to outwards, heightened discipline, and inner conviction. While my assessment of New Zealand...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Employers liquidating companies to avoid paying minimum entitlements
    Across the union movement we have seen a number of documented cases now where companies are liquidating their business in order to avoid their legal obligations, in terms of paying the minimum entitlements to their workers. The most recent example...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • GUEST BLOG: Joe Carolan : Positively Controversial
    The protest in Auckland last weekend that the NZ Herald claimed was attend by only a hundred people. Labour should set the agenda and purposely do something positively controversial once a week. A good start would be for all their...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Forest & Bird supports Fish and Game’s freshwater advocacy
    The independent conservation organisation Forest & Bird is concerned over allegations the Fish & Game Council has been threatened over its advocacy for freshwater quality....
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Time for Epsom to say “no deal”
    “Epsom voters will be disgusted by the deal announced today to try and once again gift their electorate to the ACT Party”, says Labour candidate for Epsom Michael Wood....
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Petition for release the of seven Bah
    At the invitation of the Honourable Annette King the New Zealand Bahá'í community is presenting a petition to the House of Representatives asking the NZ government to demand the release of the seven former leaders of the Baha’i community in...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Capital gains in the capital city
    Victoria University will today be hosting a public debate on the merits of more comprehensive capital gains tax—a step which taxation expert Associate Professor Dr David White considers would be beneficial for New Zealand. Organised by student group Beta Alpha...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Te Kupenga supports efforts of anti-violence campaigner
    Te Kupenga Whakaoti Mahi Patunga – National Network of Stopping Violence Services (Te Kupenga) wholeheartedly endorses statements made by DJ, Kickboxer and Anti-Violence Campaigner Richie Hardcore this morning on TV3’s Firstline about the role of men...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • iPredict Ltd2014 Election Update #28
    The chances of a fiscal surplus in 2014/15 continue to plunge and are down to 50%, according to the combined wisdom of the 7000 registered traders on New Zealand’s online predictions market, iPredict. The forecast surplus is now just 0.22%...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • TPPA is a bad idea
    “Currently New Zealand, Australia, Singapore, Brunei, Vietnam, the USA, Japan, Malaysia, Canada, and Mexico are still negotiating the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement. Officially talks finished last August, but the reality is that they keep...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Getting privacy right in our data future
    Privacy Commissioner John Edwards welcomes the release of the New Zealand Data Futures Forum’s report....
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Conference on Democracy, Ethics and the Public Good
    Conference on Democracy, Ethics and the Public Good A conference is to be held in Wellington on 1 and 2 August with the aim of starting a NZ-wide discussion about the quality of our democracy. The conference is hosted jointly...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Paddock to plate, and smart roads possible
    New Zealand’s international brand and exports could grow significantly with the creation of a data sharing ‘eco-system’ according to a paper released by the NZ Data Futures Forum today....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Ngapuhi wants to overthrow Maori King
    Ngapuhi is planning a hui for the end of the year – organised by iwi leader David Rankin – in which the future of the King Movement will be discussed....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Housing warrant of fitness little help for sick children
    A housing warrant of fitness has been promoted as a way of preventing sickness among children in poverty. The attached report shows that such a regime would have little impact on health outcomes but would come at a considerable cost,...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Upcoming Fabian Events in Auckland
    Sue Bradford ’s PhD thesis, 'A major left wing think tank in Aotearoa—an impossible dream or a call to action?' looked at why no major left wing think tank has developed in Aotearoa and whether the left in 2010-2013 was...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Senior Citizens, Not Senile Citizens
    The Taxpayers’ Union is questioning the merits and costs of the “ No car? No problem! Getting around your community without a car” brochure, released by the Office for Senior Citizens. The brochure’s purpose is to explain to senior citizens...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • NZ Troops Hone Their Skills in Queensland
    Around 260 New Zealand troops are on a 25-day Australian-led warfighting exercise in Townsville, Northern Queensland....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Maritime Union backs Green Party call for shipping lanes
    The Maritime Union is backing the Green Party’s policy to implement compulsory shipping lanes for coastal shipping, announced today....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Auckland Council Bypasses Public, Ditches Rodeo Ban
    Auckland Council Bypasses Public, Ditches Rodeo Ban The Auckland Council has announced that they are abandoning the rodeo ban on council land, put into place in 2008. This was done with virtually no consultation, says SAFE, the animal advocacy organisation....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Tolley and Coleman urged to meet West Papuan visitor
    Ministers Tolley and Coleman urged to meet West Papuan visitor Police Minister Anne Tolley and Defence Minister Dr Jonathan Coleman have a rare opportunity this week to gain first-hand knowledge about Indonesian police and military activities in West...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Minister Right to Give Fish & Game a Serve
    Reacting to Radio New Zealand’s report concerning allegations that Conservation Minister Nick Smith warned the Fish and Game Council that it acts like a 'rabid NGO', Jordan Williams, Executive Director of the Taxpayers’ Union says:...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Government needs to get Fishing reform bill passed now
    The Maritime Union is urging the Government to push through a Bill reforming the fishing industry....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Ivory trade laws look set to tighten following petition
    A petition mounted by an Auckland schoolteacher has won the support of a powerful Select Committee and has moved the New Zealand closer towards a fully enforceable ivory trading ban....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Bilingual guide a demonstration of leadership
    “Waikato River Restoration: A Bilingual Guide” to the Waikato River that saw Tainui Waikato, Landcare Trust and the Waikato River Authority working together is a demonstration of rangatiratanga or leadership says Race Relations Commissioner...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Georgina Beyer to stand for MANA in Te Tai Tonga
    "It's great to have Georgie on board" said Hone Harawira, MANA Leader and Te Tai Tokerau MP. "She's strong-minded, stands up to be counted, and has fought for the rights of those who haven't had any - and won. That...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Q + A: Sir Bob Harvey
    SUSAN Sir Bob Harvey was behind the transformation of Norm Kirk, and one of New Zealand's most popular Prime Ministers. He also advised Bill Rowling, David Lange and Helen Clark, the latter as Labour Party President. Wild Westie a new...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Q + A: Rod Drury
    Xero boss Rod Drury told TVNZ’s Q+A programme what the political parties are offering at this election is ‘all too small.’ “There's no policy, all it is a bunch of incremental stuff. “All too small. What we want to do...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Q + A: Gerry Brownlee
    Transport Minister Gerry Brownlee Rules Out Fastracking Auckland’s City Rail Loop Transport Minister Gerry Brownlee told TV1’s Q+A programme this morning that he won’t be bringing forward an Auckland City Rail loop based on new figures showing...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Owen interviews Australian Treasurer Joe Hockey
    Lisa Owen interviews Australian Treasurer Joe Hockey Headlines: Australian Treasurer Joe Hockey suggests “we can move on some” changes to welfare for New Zealanders in Australia New Zealanders “brothers and sisters” who make “a massive contribution”,...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Flavell and Harawira on The Nation
    Lisa Owen interviews Maori Party leader Te Ururoa Flavell and Mana leader Hone Harawira Headlines: Hone Harawira says realistically his Mana Party can take three Maori seats, Te Ururoa Flavell sticks to prediction that Maori Party will win all seven....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • The Nation 26,27 July: Flavell & Harawira, Joe Hockey
    On The Nation this weekend…. With the Maori seats primed to play a pivotal role this election, Torben Akel reports from the key battlegrounds and meets the top contenders. Then the Maori Party co-leader Te Ururoa Flavell and Mana Party...
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Announcement of New Zealand First Candidate for Rangitīkei
    New Zealand First has endorsed Dr Romuald (‘Rom’) Rudzki as the candidate for the Rangitīkei Electorate in the 2014 General Election....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Labour Offer Len Brown a Hotel Tax
    The Taxpayers’ Union is slamming the Labour Party's plan to allow councils to levy new 'pillow taxes' and regional petrol taxes. Reacting to this afternoon’s NZ Herald report Jordan Williams, Executive Director of the Taxpayers’ Union ,...
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Cell phone evidence a first
    Cell phone evidence a first Evidence gathered solely from a cell phone has been used for the first time to convict a Hastings man for possessing child sexual abuse pictures. Michael Lawrence Worsnop, a 29-year-old orchard worker pleaded guilty to...
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • New Zealand Aid Worker Helping in Gaza
    A New Zealand Red Cross nurse working in Gaza says she has never experienced anything like the current conflict in her long aid work career....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Parking officers deserve safety at work
    The union representing the Auckland Transport parking officer severely beaten on July 17 says everyone has a right to go about their job without fear for their safety....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Caritas Aotearoa NZ to provide Gaza humanitarian aid
    Caritas Jerusalem is providing medical assistance, food and other necessities to the thousands of vulnerable people affected by the escalating conflict in Gaza, and Caritas Aotearoa New Zealand is contributing an initial $20,000 to support the humanitarian...
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • ALCP challenges parties to support Charlotte’s Web
    The leader of the Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis Party Julian Crawford is calling on all other political parties to state their position on using cannabis oil to treat pediatric epilepsy....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Oxfam accepts cheque from Pacific Corporation Foundation
    Oxfam New Zealand has accepted a cheque for almost $1000 today from the Pacific Corporation Foundation toward recovery efforts in the Solomon Islands, following April’s flash flooding that left thousands homeless....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Draft report and decision – Pūhoi to Warkworth proposal
    The Ara Tūhono – Pūhoi to Wellsford Road of National Significance: Pūhoi to Warkworth section Board of Inquiry has released its draft report and decision....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • New Zealanders willing to pay tax to protect dolphins
    A report released this week shows a large majority of New Zealanders want Maui’s and Hector’s dolphins protected and they are prepared to pay for it....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Stop Smart Meters
    “The Democrats for Social Credit Party (DSC) wholeheartedly endorses the Stop Smart Meters campaign for a moratorium on installations of smart meters until the technology is proven not be a risk to health, and until home owners are given a...
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Maori Roll Electors Urged to Vote Strategically
    Voters enrolled in the seven Maori electorates must learn to maximize their influence by voting strategically, according to the Maori Party candidate for Te Tai Tokerau, Rev Te Hira Paenga....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Politicians Ignore Families’ Concerns on Street Prostitution
    Family First NZ says that politicians are ignoring the concerns of families, lack the will to take appropriate action, and are happy to drag the ongoing problem of street prostitution into the next parliamentary term....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Plunket celebrates Te Wiki o te Reo Māori
    Plunket is proud to celebrate Te Wiki o te Reo Māori (21-27 July), with Plunket people across the country among several thousand New Zealanders taking part and increasing their kete of knowledge in te reo....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Coleman must quit or be sacked over Dotcom case
    Immigration New Zealand has done the right thing in distancing itself from Jonathan Coleman’s claims that ministers were not aware of FBI involvement in Kim Dotcom’s residency application, says the Internet Party. Internet Party leader Laila Harré...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Auckland Councillors, Not Emperors
    25 JULY 2014 Responding to the NZ Herald report that Auckland Councillors have voted to keep their ratepayer-funded business class travel perks, and considered new rules that would have exempted councillors from Auckland City's parking charges, Taxpayers’...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Cunliffe Looks Dodgy Lunching with Sex Offender
    Conservative Party Leader Colin Craig says that David Cunliffe's social meeting with a known sex offender while on holiday "looks pretty dodgy."...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Taxpayers’ Union Back LGNZ Calls For Greater Transparency
    The Taxpayers’ Union is backing Local Government New Zealand’s calls for the Official Information Act to be extended to cover the Local Government Commission. Union Executive Director, Jordan Williams, says:...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Lecture series to provide insight into 2014 election
    Could National’s refusal to reform MMP lead to the defeat of the government? Is the media providing voters with the information they require to make an informed electoral decision? What directions might John Key’s leadership take if he secures...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • National Rally Against Factory Farming
    Animal advocates and members of the public all over New Zealand will unite for a ‘National Day of Action Against Factory Farming’ Saturday, tomorrow 26 July in response to two recent exposés that showed horrific conditions on pig factory farms....
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Women in Politics Finds Support at Conference
    Women in Politics, a brand-new organisation for New Zealand women in political office, was met with overwhelming support at the 2014 Local Government New Zealand Conference held this weekend in Nelson....
    Scoop politics | 24-07
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