Goff vs. Key first debate

Written By: - Date published: 3:35 pm, October 31st, 2011 - 145 comments
Categories: election 2011, john key, phil goff - Tags: ,

The first debate.

Phil Goff and John Key.

TV1 at 7pm. Don’t miss it!

===================================================================

Update:

See the website www.keyholes.co.nz for looking at the claims that Key makes in the debate.

See also Twitter: #keyholes #ownourfuture  #voteNZ

Goff getting all the hits in. Got his policies across well. Key defensive and angry. www.keyholes.co.nz running hot.

145 comments on “Goff vs. Key first debate”

  1. tsmithfield 1

    No matter how the debate goes, all the lefties here will be raving about how great Goffs performance was and how terrible Keys was.

    • r0b 1.1

      Getting your excuses in early TS?

      • Tigger 1.1.1

        Hey T’S, how did you think Key performed in his opening lecture video?

        • McFlock 1.1.1.1

          “oh, he was wonderful, so inspiring, so many great policy ideas, he loves each and every one of us individually, a natural in front of the camera, god he’s sexier than Robert Pattinson but he sparkles twice as much”
            
          … is what we haven’t heard from our neighbourhood tories.

    • higherstandard 1.2

      And vice versa at Kiwiblog – so ?

      Most of NZ won’t bother watching.

  2. Colonial Viper 2

    Goff needs to be focussed on giving Labour’s answers to the future, not focussed on attacking Key.

    • chris73 2.1

      Wow, you’ve posted something I actually agree with (and I hope Key doesn’t attack Goff either)

      • Ari 2.1.1

        Oh no, there was a ton of attacking, and I’m not even through part 2 😛 Goff did well on holding off on that front a bit longer, but potential PMs are a fiery bunch and once the attacks start flying so do the counter-attacks, sadly.

    • Afewknowthetruth 3.1

      DK.

      From that item:

      ‘It was difficult for businesses to organise and structure themselves and they were “looking for a bit more direction to place their bets as to where future growth will come from”.

      Being trapped in the redundant paradigms of empire, they just don’t get it, do they?

      http://richardheinberg.com/bookshelf/the-end-of-growth-book

      ‘humanity has reached a fundamental turning point in our economic history. The expansionary trajectory of industrial civilization is colliding with non-negotiable natural limits.’

      Perpetual growth on a finite planet was a nice fantasy while it lasted (even if it has probably destroyed the future habitability of the Earth)

  3. outofbed 4

    So what about the 20% of NZ’s who didn’t vote for the red or blue team?

    • ianmac 5.1

      Phil did well. Only suggestion would be to be more concise and stop speaking before he gets stopped. With that format people won’t remember the detailed explanations. Just a perception or not of confidence/strength. Goff 60%. Key 40%.

  4. Afewknowthetruth 6

    Anyone want to bet that the key issues of the times (pardon the pun) of:

    1. Peak Oil.

    2. Collapse of fiat currencies

    3. Abrupt Climate Change.

    4. Acidification of the oceans.

    5. Population overshoot

    6. Overconsumption.

    7. Collapse of industrial agriculture (and the mass starvation that must inevitably follow).

    8. Loss of biodiversity.

    won’t be mentioned by either of them?

    • r0b 6.1

      I think you’re quite right. And I think it is a sign of all that is wrong with politics. It’s also why we needed the Greens in the room, and why these major party only debates serve us poorly.

    • King Kong 6.2

      I bet they will also ignore:

      1. An increase in Light sabre related deaths
      2. Alien abductions
      3.Declining Yeti populations

  5. gingercrush 7

    I’m watching Shortland Street.

  6. PJ 8

    the 2 comments above ^ say so much about those of the rightish persuasion

  7. r0b 9

    Update:
    See the website http://www.keyholes.co.nz for looking at the claims that Key makes in the debate.
    See also Twitter: #keyholes #ownourfuture  #voteNZ

  8. IrishBill 10

    Last time around they played Key down and he actually did quite well. Beating predictions like that worked in his favour – a lot of people called the debates for him just because he exceeded expectations.

    Personally I think the nats are running the same strategy this time.

  9. With that website it seems like your trying to argue for Goff, if Goff is so brilliant and Key is so terrible, then Im guessing Goff will win hands down?

  10. Uturn 12

    Round one to Goff, simply because Key is fighting and forgetting to answer the question. Key’s method will reinforce existing support, but not win additional support. Goff also nailed him on asset sales point, making him sound like a thief stealing assets he doesn’t own.

    • Lanthanide 12.1

      Eh? Both I and my boyfriend had exactly the opposite impression of the first 17 minutes. Goff appeared flustered while Key appeared very well-rehearsed.

      • Uturn 12.1.1

        Goff was stumbling verbally, but like I say, Key wasn’t landing his hits even though he was the better speaker.

  11. Cin77 13

    Stoopid tvnz website! I can never get the videos to work 🙁 Looks like live streaming is out too. D’oh!

  12. gobsmacked 14

    Guyon Espiner’s job description … to interrupt Goff and give Key extra time.

    Oh, and they’re having a “text poll” (i.e. a vote-buying spree, wholly meaningless, which you can predict in advance as 70 % plus for Key).

    Pathetic.

  13. DS 15

    You know what’s really bugging me? When Goff talks to Key all Key does is stare at the ceiling or look around at anything but Goff.

    And what’s with the drunken sailor consistent reference?

    • Carol 15.1

      Key was doing quite well, but Goff’s needling him, and Key’s starting to get a weird, dead-eyed glazed look.

      • DS 15.1.1

        He came out with the false cheerfulness of a fifth form debater who was Going To Be Confident. *shudder. Makes my skin crawl. Appropriate that it’s Halloween.

      • Anne 15.1.2

        Agree Carol. Goff’s slowly getting the better of him. Go Goff…
        Oh, the suspense. Bad as the All Black Final.

        • Lanthanide 15.1.2.1

          Yeah I agree, Goff is getting better. First 5-10 minutes were pretty shaky with stumbling answers.

    • The Voice of Reason 15.2

      Jeez, ‘drunken sailor’? From Key? Pot, kettle and such …

    • gobsmacked 15.3

      Oh God, they’ve got a panel commentary during the debate.

      FFS.

      TVNZ, you are useless.

      • Tigger 15.3.1

        Worse than useless. It’s dishonest. They’re framing how we should perceive the debate. Keep your spin out of it Toryvision NZ.

      • Carol 15.3.2

        Where is this panel commentary people are talking about?

        • Lanthanide 15.3.2.1

          There was a small cut to Sainsbury and his two lackies at approx 7:35 ad-break. Lasted may 1:30. They’re in a separate room from Goff & Key. Same panelists they use on Q&A.

          They haven’t had another one yet.

    • Lanthanide 15.4

      Key’s aloof “not looking at you” makes him look like a jerk.

      He’s starting to look at Goff more now.

  14. KJT 16

    Goff talks. Espiner intrerupts. Then Key gets a rebuttal. When Goof tries one Espiner moves on. Key talks Espiner is all deference.

    Note: Goff is struggling to avoid calling Key on his outright lies.

  15. Uturn 17

    Key isn’t performing well at all, even though he talks fast. Goff is really warming up on him, using easily understandable counterpoints, even calling him a liar. Then Key admits it! Oh dear. Any point on wages or tax Goff has stunned him to standstill.

    I also noticed the cameras were favouring Goff. Maybe because he was where the action was coming from, but maybe … it’s the left leaning media bias blah blah conspiracy blah blah.

  16. Uturn 19

    Ahh I get it now. Key isn’t there to debate. Watch his body language – it’s of that corporate manager who is listening to something he’s paid to ignore. To him, the decision has been made, the lines are just being repeated and it doesn’t matter that the troublesome naysayer is talking. At least Goff is promoting his policy clearly.

    • Carol 19.1

      Goff is clearly listening to Key and concentrating when he speaks.

    • Banter 19.2

      I only got to see the first ten minutes and that was exactly the impression I got.

      “twiddling thumbs, whats that noise in my ear……so what are we on to now, CGT, right, check my pieces of paper for what I had to remember to say, that other guy has stopped….rightoff we go ”

      Did Phil have notes, I didnt see any

  17. Rodel 20

    This wasn’t a debate. It was Espiner soliciting sound bites and shutting up the two most important leaders of our country. No depth at all. Phil and John tried.
    Pathetic.. I think even Sainsbury or daffy duck could have done better.

  18. chris73 21

    Its not important but it looks like Goffs had some botox done, especially noticable between his brows, they don’t seem to be moving.

    I’d like to see both get a bit more fired up.

    • Zola 21.1

      Have a look at Key. His hairpiece looks like a dead rat!

      • chris73 21.1.1

        I was actually wondering if hes wearing a rug

        at least its not just the chick MPs getting scrutinised over their looks 😉

        • The Voice of Reason 21.1.1.1

          Dya remember when Goff acknowledged dyeing his hair? Not a peep from Key about the matter. Know you know why.

      • Hami Shearlie 21.1.2

        That’s no hairpiece – that’s his cat Moonbeam – the dead rat must be the cat’s dinner!

  19. hobbit 22

    Goof couldnt balance a book on his head, let a lone try and balance the Govt’s books. He is telling his usual level of twisted lies , obviously he dosent understand economics. He is out of his depth. John Key is far out in front and winning this debate. I can see now why labor has chosen to miss goof off the advertising billboards.

  20. rainman 23

    Hmmm. I don’t think Goff’s doing so well. Not terrible, but a little flustered and dodged a few tough questions when picking any line and sticking to it would have probably been better. Bit of uhming and ahing but Key’s been climbing straight in with simple confident soundbites. Some cracks in Key’s facade but I’d have to say he’s sounding more together than he has been lately, and way better than during the opening address.

  21. Key says they had international oil response experts fly into the country and divers in the water on the afternoon of the Rena grounding on the 5th… Key lies.

  22. The Polecat 25

    How lame were Key’s jokes after Goff hammered him on interest rates?

    Obvious prepared jokes for a sticky situation. Halloween, Drunken Sailor..

  23. KJT 26

    Why do we need a panel to tell us what to think?

    Espiner interrupting both now. Don’t want to hear his opinion.

    Both are having there moments of floundering. Not a high standard of debate.

    • Rodel 26.1

      Agree. Not a debate at all. I’ve seen Goff debating and making a case He’s good at it but Espiner , Sainsbury & co just want a Simpsons type entertainment thing. That’s their job.

      • thejackal 26.1.1

        Wasn’t run well… Spiner would ask Goff a question on policy, then Key would have a turn and bullshit to try and make Goff look bad… Spiner would cut Goff off from answering Keys lies. Bad form, but I expected nothing more.

        • Zaphod Beeblebrox 26.1.1.1

          The whole format was wrong. tried to cover too many topics, too many questions, so Spiner was obviously told only 2 line answers and keep it moving.

          Get rid of the panel, let people make their own minds up.

          If you want joe blows asking meaningless questions (efficient public service- thats a majorly complex issue so how can you discuss that in two lines??), you need a town hall format

          The whole debate should have been economics. Then you could have two more on social issues and environment then foreign affairs and leadership.

          The Americans do the debates the best. The Clinton-Obama one in Pennsylvania in 07 was brilliant.

  24. gobsmacked 27

    Key has a better grasp of the format than Goff. It’s made for him … superficial.

    If there’s the slightest chance of the debate getting into substantive detail, Guyon jumps in and goes to an ad break or Panel A or Panel B or new question or you tube or …

    There are SIX different elements to this “debate”. Just two would suffice.

  25. Batman 28

    Disclaimer required: Keyholes is run by Labour.

  26. gobsmacked 29

    Oops!

    Christchurch is “a very vibrant city”, says Key.

    It certainly is.

  27. Jilly Bee 30

    Jeez, if John Key says ‘akshully’ once more I will scream!!

  28. Anne 31

    I’ve had enough of Claire Robinson. Have followed her comments on Q&A and she is always negative about Labour. Runs them down every time. I think the time has come to lay complaints with TVNZ about the Tory bitch! Anyone know her professional email address? I’m happy to tell her a thing or two!

  29. Nick C 32

    Key clearly winning, seems like during the ad breaks Goff calms himself down, but through the segments he gets angrier and angrier, until he is just interupting and yelling at Key. Key by contrast is very stylish, and is promoting the government reasonably well. Goff spending too much time on attacking Key and generally pointing out that times are tough. The reason Key has been so popular despite tough times is that people dont think its his fault. Whether you agree on substance beyond that more down to your political views.

    Seems like the lefties here are divided 50/50 on who is winning, which suggests a win for Key.

    Also that ‘keyholes’ website is shit. I thought it might be a genuine fact checker of Keys statements, but just another angry lefty having a rant.

  30. Carol 33

    Goff has shown passion for the struggling ordinary Kiwis. That’ll strike a chord with some. Key recites his young years and prepared storieswith little conviction.

    PS: Recently tweeted:

    http://twitter.com/#!/_jjw_/status/130904484707704832

    Do you think the TVNZ debate will end with a three way handshake between Guyon, Phil, and John? #votenz #greenroom

  31. Lanthanide 34

    Someone on stuff pointed out that Key has got written notes. Goff doesn’t.

    • thejackal 34.1

      I wouldn’t put it past TVNZ to set the debate up so Key knew all the questions while Goff didn’t. If that’s the case, the Labour leader did very well indeed while Key failed… even with the script.

  32. Paul 35

    Has anyone counted the number of times Goff was interrupted by Espinor and how many times Key was? Would be interesting to take a score. It’s easy not to be hassled when only one side is pressed.
    Wonder if anyone questions TVNZ about bias.
    Did you also notice how the guy from backbenchers was the only one to press Key?
    MSM – unbelievable, but can’t say I was surprised.
    BTW – Espiner even wore a blue tie!

  33. Carol 36

    What’s a dennamik environment?

  34. RedLogix 37

    As fine a demonstration of the dumb-down effect of the mass media as you’ll find anywhere.

    Key could have gone,” blah, blah, blah” all night and the pundits would still love his ‘style’.

  35. rainman 38

    Good finish for Phil but Key may have won it.
    Shit format and none of the real issues debated, but I kinda expected that.

  36. r0b 39

    Lousy format. If you believed his lies, then Key was leading earlier on, very glib and smooth. But in the second half Goff nailed it – finished very strong.

  37. Key won the debate 60-40 IMHO.
    According to Texters it was 61-39.

    Before this debate, Goff said he wont play the man, but he did, just trying to over
    talk Key.

    Key stuck to stats and Data.

    Round One to Key, no knock out punch.

    • lprent 40.1

      Why would I waste money on a phone company? Txt polls are just about who wants to waste money…

      • pollywog 40.1.1

        Txt polls are about rounding up your support before hand and bombing the shit out of the number to boost your hits.

        Key could have just burped and farted his way through the whole show and still the Nat’s black ops txt bomb squad woulda skewed the poll results in his favour…oh hang on

      • LynW 40.1.2

        My thoughts exactly re wasting money…..75cents! Let them have their false poll result!

    • Blighty 40.2

      Brett. What stats did key cite?

      I remember 60,000 more on benefits

      I remember 49,000 fewer jobs.

      I remember 100,000 Kiwis leaving for Australia

      I remember household incomes down $82 a week…

      … all said by Goff.

      Happy for you to quote Key’s stats.

      • logie97 40.2.1

        Here’s one from Key, “We predict 170,000 jobs in the next three years.”
        Oops, that was in 2009.
        Tonight’s stat – “We budgeted for 170,000 jobs in the next three years.”
        Oops, that was in 2011 budget.
        Tonight’s prediction – “We will create 170,000 jobs in the next three years.”

        Thank god there is a huge amount of water between us and our neighbours. If it was possible to get on your bike (as the wonderful Thatcherite, Norman Tebbit once said) there would be one heck of a lot more heading west.

        Cycle-way anyone? (Didn’t get a mention tonight – wonder why).

        Of course, reality is 60,000 jobs lost.

  38. Would anyone like a debate format where each Key and Goff get one minute to answer the question and then the other can have a rebuttal?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 41.1

      No. I’d like to see a format where each participant was connected to a lie detector.

    • Ari 41.2

      Honestly, I’d much prefer to have broader topics with much longer answers and rebuttals, we get more substance that way, and if leaders waffle on they’re wasting their own chances. Giving them a minute or two on every question just means you get soundbites instead of answers.

  39. Sanctuary 42

    Key scored a stupid own goal on the honesty question at the end. Goff did well. The whole point of the Labour campaign is to focus on policy. All Goff has to do is show he is at least as competent as Key.

  40. Carol 43

    Goff doesn’t have to win in this skewed context…. he just has to (re)connect with significant numbers of leftie voters.

  41. Sanctuary 44

    Oh and What is it about Claire Robinson that really annoys me? Oh yes, just like on Pundit, she manages to be completely wrong about everything – and she is whiney when you point it out.

    • logie97 44.1

      And chinless to boot.

      • Ari 44.1.1

        Criticising female journalists for their appearance instead of their substance is pretty sexist.

        • logie97 44.1.1.1

          … your inference. (Try weak and ineffectual.)

          • Ari 44.1.1.1.1

            Yes my inference, but actually having spent quite a bit of time working on feminism I think I’m more qualified on this front than you are. Women in any profession get criticised disproportionately for their appearance, but journalists get it even more so, and it’s a distraction from what’s either genuinely good or genuinely bad about them as a journalist. Unless you want to date her or she looks unprofessional, it ought to be bloody irrelevant how she looks.

          • KJT 44.1.1.1.2

            Spineless

  42. Dan 45

    Awful format, nonsense poll at the end. However Goff, without notes, did very well. The MSM cannot over the next few weeks demean Goff as weak. He was very good. Is it true that last election, Key had an earphone feed to help with the answers? If so, he has improved to be able to have his answers on paper.
    Goff is personable and passionate. He has my vote.

    • Sanctuary 45.1

      I think you’ve got the real importance of the debate. It is about framing the media’s reporting narrative. By not losing, Goff has won because the MSM, who set the news narrative, will decide he was the equal of Key in the debates. And since going into this election Key was muuch more “popular” than Goff, that makes Key the loser.

  43. What’s with the subliminal blue ticked boxes all over the show and the predominance of blue lighting ?

    If theres one clear point that’s come through from Goff and rammed home, it’s that Key has been proven to be a liar.

    That makes anything Key says when attempting to quote facts and stats as unreliable.

    Simply put, the man can’t be trusted.

    • Ari 46.1

      This is why elections goes orange. You’d think at least TVNZ could go with white graphics, which are unaffiliated with any NZ parties, useful from a design point of view, and provide good contrast.

      • felix 46.1.1

        Oh I’m sure at the next debate it’ll all be red backdrops and Guyon will interrupt Key instead of Goff now and then.

        Not.

  44. belladonna 47

    Right winger Mitch Harris on Radio Live is full of praise for Goff – who’d thunk it!

  45. LynW 48

    I felt Phil Goff did very well indeed and landed the last comment superbly. I was pleased to see the camera on John Key while Goff was speaking as it showed him shuffling papers and looking quite uncomfortable. Glad to hear Goff engaged with the audience first during the breaks with Key copying! ( via the Stuff running commentary)

  46. One Anonymous Bloke 49

    Key: the Dunning Kruger effect is strong in this one.
    Goff: a bit too measured, his years in politics have smoothed his corners. He was good when he got annoyed at Espiner’s obvious bias.
    edit: PS: he said guts not balls.

  47. Carol 50

    Bomber’s review:

    http://tumeke.blogspot.com/2011/10/review-tvnz-first-leaders-debate.html

    includes these lines:

    Another right wing question, this time pro mining??? Who selected these questions? Steven Joyce?
    […]
    Great question from Wallace about what they would march for, Key says he would march for a competitive economy? The reincarnation of Milton Friedman? Goff lists what he has marched for, and that’s the point, Goff has marched, Key would think about marching.
    […]
    Key will close the wage gap with Australia by paying youth sweatshop wages? Who is buying this bullshit?

    I’m confused, I didn’t realize Claire Robinson was running for leader of the National Party?

    Leadership being debated, Goff says he’s making the hard calls – Key says something bland.

    Key blames ‘dynamic environment’ for lying – I’m using that next time I’m in trouble with my girlfriend.

  48. NattyM 51

    With Key, I always get the impression ackshully (why does he persist in putting an “h” in so many words where there is not “h”?) that he is just opens his mouth and the words that spill out are the ones that someone else has written for him. It’s really predictable what little patsy expressions he’s going to trot out e.g. like a drunken sailor, bananas, trick and treat and he’s like a smartarse, smirking kid, after he’s said them. And I agree Jilly Bee – if he said ackshully just one more time ….

  49. Rodel 52

    Those stupid polls that TV people love to use with the proviso that, “It’s not 100% scientific” are such meaningless bullshit.” They are not even 1% scientific but our dumb,lazy media celebrities see them as easy ways to get their wages
    Every Tory has been schooled to respond and most Left wingers couldn’t give a shit about responding to such nonsense….if they even watched the “debate.”

  50. Why the hell did they get that stooge Espiner to front this ?… No don’t answer that, it’s patsy question we all know the answer to.

    The real question is, why didn’t they get Wallace Chapman to front it ???…He’s only been doing this week in week out on Backbenchers.

    …and what was the point in having a panel sitting there under the big blue ticked boxes if they only got to ask one question ?

    Like rugby, the refs control the tempo and flow of the game. This one reminded me of Samoa vs Sth Africa….GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR !!!

    Espiner should be ashamed of himself and be kicked to touch for the shonky handling of this game.

    • Lanthanide 53.1

      Yeah, Wallace would’ve been much better.

      I thought his question was much more astute and interesting than the other panellists, too.

  51. randal 54

    Look all Phil has to do is learn how to goad kweewee and he is home and hosed.
    forget the facts. push his buttons and lets see the meltdown.

  52. One Anonymous Bloke 55

    Is it just me or is Goff is winning the Stuff comments battle?
    And what effect has the coincidence of Halloween and the debate had on the demographic of the watchers?

    • Lanthanide 55.1

      Yeah, the stuff comments are surprisingly left-leaning.

      I’ve been feeling for several months now that there’s been a lot of astroturfing in the stuff comments sections, and people parroting National’s lines because they simply haven’t heard anything, from anywhere, that rebuts them.

  53. Massive kudos to Goff on calling Key out as a liar to his face. That took some balls !

    Of course Key tried to get him to retract it with some bullshit retort about respect. To Goff’s credit he acknowledged the respect then responded with, it’s not something he would say lightly…

    …however the facts speak for themselves.

    JOHN KEY IS A LIAR.

    • Ari 56.1

      It’s not so much that he’s a liar, and more that we live in a dynamic environment where the truth is simply too expensive to afford anymore.

      😉

  54. John W 57

    Interesting.

    Goff ahead but Key publicly established as a liar.

    Our problem appear to be a “dynamic world”. Ha ha.

    It must be for Bankers

    No ones is looking at the big questions

    Change for sustainability without growth, and all overshoot implies

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