GPS

Written By: - Date published: 8:00 am, June 23rd, 2016 - 219 comments
Categories: Abuse of power, Deep stuff, democracy under attack - Tags: ,

Big brother

If you were a government, what would you do with a GPS tracker on every single vehicle in New Zealand?

That seems to be what Minister Bridges is heading towards with his view of tolling. Only the elite see this as a cost-attribution instrument.

Of course, many of us willingly give up our privacy to our cellphone apps and to social media.

But we have to offer that up.

And granted, motorways and roads are already highly regulated environments. There’s no clear right to privacy in New Zealand.

But our Bill of Rights Act has a freedom of movement clause in Section 18. For good reason. But they think they can limit us moving, simply through fear.

How long would it last before NZTA was required to share the data with: NZ Police, the SIS, IRD, MSD, Housing NZ, GCSB, and then as we’ve seen, data goes to Ministers to roast us alive and naked? Not long.

The state does not need to know where I am.

Our Bill of Rights Act section 25(c) also defines the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty. Since anyone can be tracked anywhere in a gps’d vehicle, we will be under perpetual surveillance. The onus should be reversed: the state should have to prove when it needs this “warrant” to enter my space.

US Supreme Court Judge Sotomayor’s dissenting judgement against evidence obtained in a random cop stop railed against citizens being caught in the grip of the “carceral state”. It’s coming here if this succeeds. Those in NZ who are most victimized by our grossly jailed society have the most to fear from this GPS move. Sotomayor was on point here too.

Just as we did with the GCSB bill, we should rise up and fight this.

219 comments on “GPS ”

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  1. weka 1
    23 June 2016 at 8:17 am

    National have tried this before (90s?), when they wanted all cars to carry monitoring devices for user pays on national roads.

    I think there are differences between phones and cars, and companies and goats. And I agree this should be resisted. National are making other surveillance moves too, via data sharing.

    This is also another example of tech running ahead of societal values.

    • b waghorn 1.1
      23 June 2016 at 8:26 am

      Very slippery slope is what I think and I’m a boarder line authoritarian.

      A regional fuel tax is the simplest way to go. But Manned toll gates create employment and would spread the traffic better than those quick rotation red lights they have at on ramps.

    • Ad 1.2
      23 June 2016 at 8:29 am

      If the state wanted to know where I was – whether reasonable or not – what would the difference be between state-accessed GPS in my phone and state-accessed GPS in my car?

      • Colonial Viper 1.2.1
        23 June 2016 at 8:37 am

        It allows the state to bring additional evidence to court correlating your movements when they charge you for sedition and terrorist acts against the establishment i.e. going to a climate march.

        • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.1
          23 June 2016 at 11:09 am

          You do know that sedition has been removed from the law don’t you?

          • McFlock 1.2.1.1.1
            23 June 2016 at 12:33 pm

            sounded awesome though, didn’t it /sarc

            • Colonial Viper 1.2.1.1.1.1
              23 June 2016 at 12:39 pm

              Fucking lambs to the slaughter you guys. Makes no difference to me in the end, of course.

              • Anno1701 …
                23 June 2016 at 1:20 pm

                “Fucking lambs to the slaughter you guys”

                lol…like they arent already watching whoever they want anyway…

              • McFlock …
                23 June 2016 at 2:07 pm

                shit you’re right, they might arrest me for witchcraft, too

      • weka 1.2.2
        23 June 2016 at 8:48 am

        You can turn the GPS off on your phone or use a phone that doesn’t have GPS or leave your phone at home.

        The state doesn’t have access to phone GPS except under exceptional circumstances. Why did you ask what the difference was?

        • Ad 1.2.2.1
          23 June 2016 at 9:17 am

          Just to help you make that clear distinction between mobile phone GPS and vehicle GPS. The past was clear about the different degrees of assent to the decrease in the realm of freedom between GPS in either car or phone. This isn’t a moment to collapse big categories of GPS or personal data capture together.

          • weka 1.2.2.1.1
            23 June 2016 at 9:25 am

            I don’t know where you are going with that Ad. I’m not collapsing big categories of GPS or data collection together. Can you please be more clear on what you are meaning?

          • RedLogix 1.2.2.1.2
            23 June 2016 at 9:26 am

            I’m not so sure you can untangle them quite so easily Ad.

            The history of data capture, storage and integration has an arrow only pointing one way.

            • Ad 1.2.2.1.2.1
              23 June 2016 at 9:46 am

              God I wish you were wrong. But you’re not.
              I was trying to avoid sounding like a tinfoil hat-wearing loonie.

              • Colonial Viper …
                23 June 2016 at 10:23 am

                Yesterday’s conspiracy theory is today’s conspiracy fact.

                The NSA is not building ten thousand square metre petabyte scale data storage facilities for the fun of it.

                Adam Smith had it figured out what almost 3 centuries ago?

                “People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.” ― Adam Smith

        • Andre 1.2.2.2
          23 June 2016 at 9:39 am

          Even with your phone GPS turned off, “they” can still get the records of which cell tower your phone was connecting to. Not as fine a resolution as GPS, but still rough tracking of where you are. You need to turn off your phone completely or leave it at home if you really don’t want your phone leaving a record of your movements.

          • Ad 1.2.2.2.1
            23 June 2016 at 9:58 am

            Creepy!

          • Chooky 1.2.2.2.2
            23 June 2016 at 1:33 pm

            well you can always leave your cell phone under the couch

            not so easy with a car and a tracker on it…but you could borrow someone elses car lol …or ride a pony…or walk

            …actually what is needed now is a manual on spy craft …how to elude the bastards

            we could try wearing face masks

      • Doogs 1.2.3
        23 June 2016 at 5:05 pm

        Because the GPS in your car would tell what address you were at, but the GPS in the phone would show that you were in the bedroom.

  2. Colonial Viper 2
    23 June 2016 at 8:35 am

    This is a have.

    A carbon fee should apply to all imports of fuel based on its carbon content, and the resulting dividend paid to every single citizen.

    No need for all of this complex surveillance state shite.

    • Ad 2.1
      23 June 2016 at 9:21 am

      If I were in the Ministry of Transport, I’d be advising this to be a first step towards weaning the entire transport system off the core funding mechanism of hypothecated fuel tax, which relies on oil consumption, towards one which is essentially user-pays by the mile.

      Minister Bridges in h is first year felt that the current National Land Transport Fund wasn’t going to be under stress for quite some time, but eventually as the fleet got younger and more electric, and people were more targeted about the distances they drove, eventually the whole fund would come under stress.

      The GPS tolling move from a funding perspective is a step towards a 100% RUC funding system.

      • Colonial Viper 2.1.1
        23 June 2016 at 12:37 pm

        Internationally a carbon fee system is gaining attention, and it is something that James Hansen strongly supports as the best way ahead to decarbonise in a hurry,

    • instrider 2.2
      23 June 2016 at 12:23 pm

      Behind the times again CV. There already is such a charge due to the ETS. Each fuel has its own emission factor based on carbon content

      • Colonial Viper 2.2.1
        23 June 2016 at 12:36 pm

        Hmmmm it seems that you can’t tell the difference between a per kg carbon fee redistributed to the people, and the current ETS scam.

        • instrider 2.2.1.1
          23 June 2016 at 1:02 pm

          So you don’t deny there is an existing charge based on fuel carbon content, you just don’t like the level of that charge and how it is administered. You are in the same camp as Exxon with your love for the idea of a straight carbon tax

  3. Sabine 3
    23 June 2016 at 8:36 am

    Panopticon.

    I suggest that we implant the GPS at birth. As for the State surveillance, why it is good for you, innit? You will think once twice thrice about using the car or going for a walk……oh yeah, GPS Implant.

    Seriously, i can’t even begin to understand how anyone can even think about this seriously.

    Re-instate the Fuel tax. Done.

    let those that cry “poor me’ explain how they think the Infrastructure needed is going to be build.

    Christ, no wonder we can’t have nice things.

    • Colonial Viper 3.1
      23 June 2016 at 8:38 am

      The most highly educated, highly qualified people are the ones who are fucking our society over.

      • Sabine 3.1.1
        23 June 2016 at 8:44 am

        thanks for telling me that. I did not know that . Obviously.

        \no the most dangerous people are supported by cheap fucks that a. don’t want to pay ‘their money’ into taxes, b. don’t want ‘their money’ going to someone they deem unworthy, c. don’t want to ‘burden their business’ with an expense they believe can be paid for by someone else.

        I am sorry, but frankly, all the despots of the modern world were a. voted in or b. appointed, and c. were always supported usually by a bunch of moronic fuckwits that would like to put back in their place anyone they feel steps out of line. This could be…..women, migrants, other faith, other skin pigmentation, other sexual orientation etc etc etc. Trump comes to mind.

        • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1
          23 June 2016 at 10:00 am

          Killary should be top of your list. Trump is clear about what his positions are. Killary tries to make like she’s some nice woman who cares a shit about you and your family.

      • Anno1701 3.1.2
        23 June 2016 at 4:36 pm

        “The most highly educated, highly qualified people are the ones who are fucking our society over.”

        The predator class

        like leeches on society

        “We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live” – Lucy Parsons

    • RedLogix 3.2
      23 June 2016 at 9:23 am

      I’ve said this before: we almost have the technology to permanently record the movement, actions and words of everyone from birth to death. 24/365.

      No exceptions, no breaks. (Except of course for the very wealthy and powerful, who can invoke the need for confidentiality.)

      It would more or less eliminate all crime and make the few remaining Court processes extremely simple to determine.

      No-one is actually all that interested in watching you. Not even your boring sex life. All they need is to store it in case it is needed later. And to spot the troublemakers.

      • weka 3.2.1
        23 June 2016 at 9:27 am

        Not sure about the crime thing. Criminals seem to be able to keep up with the tech curve well enough, so there will always be work arounds.

      • Ad 3.2.2
        23 June 2016 at 9:37 am

        Ah the Minority Report fantasy.

        Which is another take on this.

        While the house and our phone are regularly abused as realms of privacy (because children or others give our details away), it’s this state+tax+survelliance link that makes my hair stand on end. It used to be that the car was the ultimate source of freedom; freedom of speed, of travel, or spatial autonomy.

        Uber and driverless cars already link movement and GPS very closely together. That step is already taken and well on its way. It’s the link with tax that really hits hard.

        At the moment you can be stopped from leaving the country if you have an outstanding student loan. What’s to stop the state from saying you cannot drive your vehicle on a public road unless you pay all your debts to society?

        The freedom that the analogue car affords is more powerful than either the house or personal use of social media.

        • Colonial Viper 3.2.2.1
          23 June 2016 at 9:57 am

          What’s to stop the state from saying you cannot drive your vehicle on a public road unless you pay all your debts to society?

          You mean pay all your debts to an increasingly tyrannical security state.

          Best not to confuse your government with your country, or your community.

          • Draco T Bastard 3.2.2.1.1
            23 June 2016 at 11:16 am

            Best not to confuse your government with your country, or your community.

            Actually, the problem seems to be the other way around:

            We’ve forgotten that we are the government and parliament is our servant.

            • Colonial Viper 3.2.2.1.1.1
              23 June 2016 at 12:21 pm

              We’ve forgotten that we are the government and parliament is our servant.

              A nice theory, I’ll grant you that.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                23 June 2016 at 12:24 pm

                It’s not a theory, it’s how things should be and we should be working to make it that way.

        • Draco T Bastard 3.2.2.2
          23 June 2016 at 11:14 am

          Uber and driverless cars already link movement and GPS very closely together. That step is already taken and well on its way. That step is already taken and well on its way. It’s the link with tax that really hits hard.

          Think of it this way then:

          Profit is a tax.

          • Ad 3.2.2.2.1
            23 June 2016 at 1:10 pm

            Tax by the state is not the same in law, in force, in collection, or in effect, as corporate profit.

            • Draco T Bastard 3.2.2.2.1.1
              23 June 2016 at 1:25 pm

              It makes absolutely no fucken difference except that the corporates are more likely to onsell the information to make even more profit.

              • Ad …
                23 June 2016 at 5:16 pm

                Coercion makes all the difference in the world.
                I take it you’ve never been in jail then.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  24 June 2016 at 12:02 pm

                  Coercion makes all the difference in the world.

                  Ah, a libertarian false argument.

                  We live in a democracy (ignoring, for the moment, that it more a elected dictatorship) which means that we set those rules, that we delegated the authority to enforce them and that we can elect a government to change them.

                  Under such a system there can be no coercion.

                  • Ad …
                    24 June 2016 at 2:10 pm

                    The delegated authority we have given is to the Police, who have the right of coercion. It’s not an argument from any ism. It’s a description of reality.

        • McFlock 3.2.2.3
          23 June 2016 at 12:44 pm

          Thing is, you can choose to not use uber, or to turn off gps when you’re not using it.

          And then I might check in somewhere else on facebook, or even just into the hotel at the reception desk.

          Leaving it distributed like that makes it expensive and user-intensive for anyone to put together my movement pattern.

          But gps tolling puts the daily commute into the a single database that will be the go-to movement tracking system for whomever, as well as all the billing (read: “movement”) information being available to random callcentre staff. And that’s if they only track on the highways – what do people reckon the odds are that unbilled movements will also be on a logfile somewhere?

          • Draco T Bastard 3.2.2.3.1
            23 June 2016 at 12:56 pm

            as well as all the billing (read: “movement”) information being available to random callcentre staff.

            There should only be two ways that the call centre staff have access to the data. One is when they have verified that the person that they’re talking to actually owns the data (i.e, that the car is actually theirs) or when they have a court order to access it. Any other time any attempt to access it will land them in jail for a long time.

            The court order can be verified by via the courts system. A little more difficult to verify a person though.

            • Colonial Viper 3.2.2.3.1.1
              23 June 2016 at 12:59 pm

              Just naive mate. Numerous hospital and police staff inappropriately access patient records and criminal case records. A few of them get caught and prosecuted. Some of those end up with a bit of jail time.

              You’re living in a dream land.

              The court order can be verified by via the courts system. A little more difficult to verify a person though.

              You act as if an entire additional group of people aren’t going to have access to that info as part of the process of the court order.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                23 June 2016 at 1:08 pm

                Numerous hospital and police staff inappropriately access patient records and criminal case records. A few of them get caught and prosecuted.

                Yes, a very few people actually do that so we need to make it more difficult for them to do so and easier for them to get caught doing so. It doesn’t mean that we get rid of the tools that allow us to maintain a public health system that uses less than 0.5% of the population.

                Or do you really think that we should go back to a health system that requires 5% of the population and can easily give someone the wrong medicine and killing them because the doctor didn’t have access to the right information?

                As I say, we need to look at the benefits compared to the risks and not just have a kneejerk reaction to it.

                I’m not being naive in my support of these things. You’re being stupid in not thinking about the benefits that we get from using modern systems or the systems that we can put in place to mitigate the very real risks.

                • Ad …
                  23 June 2016 at 1:14 pm

                  Wait till Paula Bennett gets your file.
                  Or Judith. Or Ede. Then you’ll figure the cost-benefit of your own rights.

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    23 June 2016 at 1:37 pm

                    If they get access to that information then they should be going to jail permanently with loss of everything, including trusts, that they own.

                    And then there’s the fact that if I’m out in public then the public knows where I am and I don’t care about them knowing that either.

                    You’re jumping up and down over nothing. The data is of no interest to anybody unless it can be used to solve a crime.

                    That’s the bit that you fail to grok. Recording the data is one thing and in and of itself does not impinge upon your privacy. It’s accessing that data that would do so and we would need to have some serious rules about access to it. Those rules would have to acknowledge that the data is yours and so you can access whenever you want but nobody else is allowed to without a court order. A politician shouldn’t have access to it at all.

                    • McFlock …
                      23 June 2016 at 2:06 pm

                      The data is of no interest to anybody unless it can be used to solve a crime.

                      How do you know the use any data will be put to? What dots it provides and how they’ll be joined with other dots?

                      You’ve got a comprehensive list of people’s movements over days, weeks, months and years. You know when they’re home, roughly where they live, whether they make regular detours to which other suburbs, what time they go to work, whether they go on holiday (zero activity for a week or two) every year. Employers could use it, spouses could use it, private investigators could use it, insurance companies could use it, cops could use it for fishing rather than “solving”, stalkers could use it, burglars could use it, kidnappers could use it, vehicle hijackers could use it to find patterns in cash transit van movements, etc etc etc.

                      Just because you can’t think of any other use for it, it doesn’t mean other people mightn’t want to flip someone a few hundred bucks for the information.

                      Yes, you might be able to develop protections for that data which will work for a lot of the time, but the first protection to be considered is whether that data needs to be collected in the first place.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      23 June 2016 at 2:44 pm

                      You know when they’re home, roughly where they live, whether they make regular detours to which other suburbs, what time they go to work,

                      No, you don’t know that at all. The data is stored, yes, but that data shouldn’t be accessed without a court order.

                      Just because you can’t think of any other use for it, it doesn’t mean other people mightn’t want to flip someone a few hundred bucks for the information.

                      And that’s why we would have laws against doing that sort of thing same as we have laws against murder. The laws don’t stop the murder but they do mean that we can prosecute afterwards.

                      Yes, you might be able to develop protections for that data which will work for a lot of the time, but the first protection to be considered is whether that data needs to be collected in the first place.

                      Yes, correct, BINGO!!!!

                      That is most definitely the first question that needs to be asked.
                      Then we’d ask if those benefits were great enough that the risks were worth taking and if they were then we’d be looking at ways to mitigate those risks.

                      What we shouldn’t do is write it all off under the kneejerk Waaaah, the governments watching me and may catch me speeding…

                    • McFlock …
                      23 June 2016 at 2:56 pm

                      Did anyone mention speeding?
                      There are much bigger problems than that.

                      The data is stored, yes, but that data shouldn’t be accessed without a court order.

                      You’re talking “shoulds” about a system implemented under the watch of the current government.

                      Do you not think there might be an inherent problem with that expectation?

                      And the start and end points of all transactions will need to be on the billing data so it can be verified by the customer. So now your call centre has access to it, alongside anyone who knows your name and birthday (or whatever other token id is requested). So much for “court order”.

                      The laws don’t stop the murder but they do mean that we can prosecute afterwards.

                      Glad to know there’s no murder problem in NZ, and that every murder is identified and the (correct) murderer convicted.

                      Yay, call centre operator gets disciplined for selling information to a criminal organisation. That’s the end of the problem, lol

                    • Ad …
                      23 June 2016 at 3:04 pm

                      I’ll pull out the bits of our Privacy Act in a minute for you.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      23 June 2016 at 3:05 pm

                      Did anyone mention speeding?

                      Yes

                      You’re talking “shoulds” about a system implemented under the watch of the current government.

                      Do you not think there might be an inherent problem with that expectation?

                      Yes I do. That would be one of the risks that we’re talking about. Then, of course, there’s nothing we can do to stop the bastards implementing it as it stands which is why I keep calling for reforming the system.

                      And even if they did implement it badly a later government could improve it.

                      And the start and end points of all transactions will need to be on the billing data so it can be verified by the customer.

                      Yes, which is why the person who owns the car would have access to that data at all times via online portal.

                      Yay, call centre operator gets disciplined for selling information to a criminal organisation.

                      Glad to know that the criminal organisation also got caught.

                      Do I need to ask you the same questions that I asked CV?

                    • McFlock …
                      23 June 2016 at 3:25 pm

                      Did anyone mention speeding?

                      Yes

                      Oh, nice. So it’s gone from toll road to another use within days of the idea being floated. Wee bit of mission creep already, but we needn’t be concerned about privacy /sarc

                      You’re talking “shoulds” about a system implemented under the watch of the current government.

                      Do you not think there might be an inherent problem with that expectation?

                      Yes I do. That would be one of the risks that we’re talking about. Then, of course, there’s nothing we can do to stop the bastards implementing it as it stands which is why I keep calling for reforming the system.

                      So why are you defending increased powers for those same bastards?

                      And even if they did implement it badly a later government could improve it.

                      And if they implement it well, then a future government could still fuck it up. When there are plenty of less invasive ways of sorting out road tolls (that shouldn’t exist anyway).

                      And the start and end points of all transactions will need to be on the billing data so it can be verified by the customer.

                      Yes, which is why the person who owns the car would have access to that data at all times via online portal.

                      lol – that’s super. Totally wheedle. Can’t go wrong.

                      Yay, call centre operator gets disciplined for selling information to a criminal organisation.

                      Glad to know that the criminal organisation also got caught.

                      Who said the organisation got caught? Plenty more operators where that person came from.

                      Do I need to ask you the same questions that I asked CV?

                      No, because in this context it’s a bullshit question. We’re discussing implementing a new programme that will affect a million people and you’re hand-waving the legal restrictions that will hopefully preserve our safety. Workplace safety and minimum wage laws place imperfect legal restrictions on things that already existed.

                      A better comparison is if somebody has floated the idea of legalising assault rifles for rabbit control, and you’re arguing that we can make suitable safety controls to minimise the potential spree-killing problem that the idea opens us up to. Here’s a thought: look for another solution rather than defending an overtly dangerous proposal with regulatory hand-waving.

                    • Ad …
                      23 June 2016 at 4:13 pm

                      They should be going to jail. But they don’t. Instead they humiliate and destroy people’s lives. Have a look back at Dirty Politics if you’ve forgotten the difference between who they are supposed to do and what Ministers actually do with it.

                      You should not be so naïve to think politicians will not use private information to destroy people, whether lawful or not.

                      If the Minister of Transport wants to spell out how he will work through the Bill of Rights Act provisions and the Privacy Act provisions, then he should have done so before opening his stupid mouth. But please, keep defending him if you like.

                      I address the other points below with the relevant parts of the Privacy Act. Rather than make them up like you are doing, this is how rules are actually formed to allow the state to access our personal data, or not. Also, they will have to prove the BORA test in any of the draft legislation that this will require.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      23 June 2016 at 8:57 pm

                      So why are you defending increased powers for those same bastards?

                      Where have I done that?

                      Who said the organisation got caught?

                      You did. Otherwise you wouldn’t have known that the call centre operator got paid by such.

                      No, because in this context it’s a bullshit question.

                      Ah, so you to don’t believe that laws work – gotcha.

                      They should be going to jail.

                      Yes they should be. The reason why they didn’t was because we don’t have the laws in place to put the fuckers in jail when they do shit like that and, due to the supremacy of parliament, even if we did they could change the laws so that we didn’t. Which is why I keep saying that we need laws preventing them from acting like they do that they can’t change. I believe it’s called a written constitution.

                      If the Minister of Transport wants to spell out how he will work through the Bill of Rights Act provisions and the Privacy Act provisions, then he should have done so before opening his stupid mouth.

                      Why?

                      Much better for us, IMO, for him to open his mouth first.

                    • McFlock …
                      23 June 2016 at 10:21 pm

                      So why are you defending increased powers for those same bastards?

                      Where have I done that?

                      Every time you defend the validity of GPS tracking all road-using vehicles in auckland, because that is not currently being done.

                      Who said the organisation got caught?

                      You did. Otherwise you wouldn’t have known that the call centre operator got paid by such.

                      Hmmm. Last news report I saw of a similar offence was a WINZ case manager done for selling information. Nobody else was arrested, even though the only reason he was being investigated was information received that he’d been selling to debt collectors for some time. Sadly, it seems that people buying the information don’t leave an audit trail.

                      No, because in this context it’s a bullshit question.

                      Ah, so you to don’t believe that laws work – gotcha.

                      They don’t work perfectly. That’s why people are murdered every week. The only way to ensure crimes will not be committed is to make them logically impossible to commit: you can’t steal information that doesn’t exist. So come up with a better reason to GPS-track all cars in Auckland than “pay a road toll”.

                      London, for example, has a congestion zone charge. The vehicles moving in and out of the zones are checked, but movements within, along or outside are not checked by a fucking billing system. Because it’s not needed. And this is in a city carpeted with cameras (albeit most of them not centrally collated).

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      24 June 2016 at 11:51 am

                      Every time you defend the validity of GPS tracking all road-using vehicles in auckland, because that is not currently being done.

                      I haven’t actually done that. I’ve questioned the kneejerk reaction that fuels this post. Yes, I’ve put up some arguments that could be used in support of putting in place a GPS, usually in response to false assertion from the opposite direction, to try and get the discussion actually covering the pros and cons of it rather than just the emotional gobshite that’s been going on but I haven’t actually supported it. I tend to be ambivalent about it.

                      The vehicles moving in and out of the zones are checked, but movements within, along or outside are not checked by a fucking billing system.

                      According to a documentary I saw on it a few years ago the UK camera system can accurately track a vehicle through about 90% of the country. The UK has millions of cameras and storage for about 5 years worth of imaging. And that was years ago, probably more than a decade.

                      And the congestion charging system is a “fucking billing system”.

                    • McFlock …
                      24 June 2016 at 1:03 pm

                      lol so you haven’t supported or defended it, except where you’ve ” put up some arguments that could be used in support of putting in place a GPS”.

                      The vehicles moving in and out of the zones are checked, but movements within, along or outside are not checked by a fucking billing system.

                      According to a documentary I saw on it a few years ago the UK camera system can accurately track a vehicle through about 90% of the country. The UK has millions of cameras and storage for about 5 years worth of imaging. And that was years ago, probably more than a decade.

                      Which is irrelevant to the London congestion charge, because Transport for London doesn’t cover the entire country, or even monitor all the cameras inside the congestion zone. What it does do is have ANPR cameras at the perimeter and roving patrols like parking wardens with ANPR cameras. What it does not do is track all movements of all vehicles within the congestion zone, or have the technology to even possibly track the movements of all vehicles outside the zones it charges for. Whether the British police can do that is another matter – the point is that the billing system only gathers the information it needs to do its job, without the possibility of mission creep.

            • McFlock 3.2.2.3.1.2
              23 June 2016 at 1:49 pm

              Should be.
              But we’re talking about poorly-paid callcentre staff. Who have most of the verification data they need for basic transactions – easiest case is to get the call from a collaborator, and text them the account number, dob, etc that they then parrot back at you – the call monitor sees no difference.

              And the data is being collected for what – a toll road? Even if it were a valid reason for a valid charge, gps tracking is the most privacy-invading way to do it. It’s like going to the doctor for hiccups and he sticks his finger up your arse. It might work, but it’s usually a last resort.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                23 June 2016 at 2:57 pm

                easiest case is to get the call from a collaborator, and text them the account number, dob, etc that they then parrot back at you – the call monitor sees no difference.

                The call monitor would pick that one up in an instant. The call centre person should not be giving out personal information on a call.

                And all calls to call centres, especially government ones, are now recorded.

                And the data is being collected for what – a toll road? Even if it were a valid reason for a valid charge, gps tracking is the most privacy-invading way to do it.

                Well, the way to do the charging is certainly open for discussion as well. We could use cameras on every corner that can do OCR on the license plate and probably facial recognition as well. Actually, that has an advantage. If the owner of the car says that they weren’t driving it we could check the photo against the driver licence photo. Hell, we could do that in the first place and avoid the complaint.

                They’d also pick everyone walking by such as purse snatchers and home invasions.

                How invasive did you say GPS was?

                • McFlock …
                  23 June 2016 at 3:09 pm

                  The call monitor would pick that one up in an instant. The call centre person should not be giving out personal information on a call.

                  No. The bit where they ask for your mothers maiden name, they see it on a screen. So they cue it up, text it to you on their personal phone, and you say it to them over the callcentre line. All the monitor hears is a delay which you can blag around, ums ahs “what was that” etc.

                  You could go all bank-like, but then you now need a PIN to drive down the damned road.

                  As for your camera idea, did you work hard trying to think of an even worse idea, rather than maybe coming up with a better one (fuel tax, or toll gate, for example)? Or do you just have a complete lack of imagination when it comes to problem solving?

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    23 June 2016 at 9:02 pm

                    So they cue it up, text it to you on their personal phone, and you say it to them over the callcentre line.

                    Last time I worked in a call centre we weren’t allowed cell phones on the floor. There’s a very good reason for that if you think about it.

                    As for your camera idea, did you work hard trying to think of an even worse idea

                    No, it just came to me while I was giggling gleefully at your inability to defend your kneejerk position.

                    • McFlock …
                      23 June 2016 at 10:06 pm

                      lol

                      awwww, cellphones aren’t allowed. I’m sure that means there’s absolutely no way to communicate information. Like maybe dude calls up on day one, fails the id test but that’s ok because now the operator has seen the answers with a legit reason to open the file, tells the dude outside of work and the dude can call up whenever and now doesn’t even need to speak to their contact.

                      It’s not a kneejerk position to argue that no security measure is perfect, therefore the data collected should be the minimum amount necessary to complete the function. It’s a basic element of information security. But no, you think it’s perfectly reasonable to GPS track pretty much every vehicle in auckland just to pay for fucking toll roads.

  4. weka 4
    23 June 2016 at 8:50 am

    Not getting the connection with tolls, is that an Auckland thing?

    Edit, it appears to be an Auckland thing, partial explanation here,

    http://thestandard.org.nz/when-is-a-toll-road-not-a-toll-road/

  5. Jenny Kirk 5
    23 June 2016 at 8:56 am

    Its just another way of putting the cost of gathering the tolls, onto the individual.
    This govt is so stupid – if it really did think it needed to toll Aucklanders for congested roads, then the easiest and cheapest way to do it is via an additional regional petrol tax. But ShonKey has said NO to that ….. silly silly man … and they’re now floundering around trying to find a way to pay for the congestion tax infrastructure.

  6. dv 6
    23 June 2016 at 8:58 am

    AND no need for speed camera!!

  7. vto 7
    23 June 2016 at 9:02 am

    I hate this shit and will resist to the limits….

    however, I don’t see this stopping. I see cameras all over the whole place. So many that you will be able to go online to every part of the globe (well, the populated parts) via the local cameras and see what is gong on there live. The entire globe will be able to be watched at every point in time by everyone..

    .. don’t think there is much to be gained from resisting the gps and tracking devices..

    .. the resistance must be aimed at the people who wish to take advantage for their own gain.. i.e. the political establishment

  8. Graeme 8
    23 June 2016 at 9:05 am

    I’d call this as a dead cat, and the one that was on your lap by the fire last night.

    Bridges want’s us talking about privacy rather than the governments spectacular backflip, 720º with three full twists and pike, on the tolling issue. Once again the best Labour government we’ve ever had… (in the view of a few curmudgeons out right)

    GPS monitoring doesn’t pass even the most basic logic test for efficient implementation. The government would have to retrofit the entire vehicle fleet. So a separate box on every vehicle, checked at WOF and roadside. Can see a lot of electrical faults. Since the boxes will be added onto existing systems these faults will occur anyway and will probably cause more than a few headaches. Will be as effective as a Carless Day sticker and a turps soaked rag.

    Number plate recognition is already being used on the tunnels north of Auckland, and there hasn’t been any issues appear in public apart from a couple of recidivist dodgers. Police have also invested in this technology, evidently in a big way, again without too many problems. Complexity could be an issue in an Auckland context with multiple entry and exit points, but that would apply to all remote monitoring methods.

    The issue is not around the gathering of the information, that’s all around us now and huge, but around the ethics of it’s use and miss-use.

    • b waghorn 8.1
      23 June 2016 at 9:20 am

      “Bridges want’s us talking about privacy rather than the governments spectacular backflip, 720º with three full twists and pike, on the tolling issue”

      And yet henry the douche bag was laying the whole thing at goffs feet, I wonder what rewards national have lined up for him for his committed service to running cover defence for them.
      This will be the issue that will decide the Auckland mayoralty.

    • Ad 8.2
      23 June 2016 at 9:26 am

      And there you have it.

      There are plenty of existing accurate tolling instruments available such as gantried number plate recognition, without going full Big Brother via a GPS attached to your car. There’s been one going on SH1 north of Auckland for about 10 years now.

      Notably the existing tolled route has an alternative slower non-tolled route, which is as it should be according to the legislation.

      • Graeme 8.2.1
        23 June 2016 at 10:47 am

        Yeah, London’s had it for 10 years and it hasn’t hampered the City much, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_congestion_charge

        And it seems to be working. Traffic is down, public transport is the norm, and air quality is improving. And from what I see from a rellie living over there, a very liveable city.

        The net returns are bit light, as in costs are about half gross revenue and some of the projections in the table at the bottom of the Wikipedia article are strange to say the least when revenue figures aren’t provided.

  9. mauī 9
    23 June 2016 at 9:19 am

    Well there’s already lots of companies with gps in their vehicles who want to know where their staff are…

    • Ad 9.1
      23 June 2016 at 9:45 am

      Which reminds me of exactly why prisoners in New Zealand gets strip searched: although they don’t find contraband on more than 2% of prisoners, it’s worth degrading 98% of the people who go in there.

    • instrider 9.2
      23 June 2016 at 12:39 pm

      Yes but they don’t have to be built to a regulatory standard which allows the force of law ro be used against the owner. They just have to be fit for purpose for the owners ‘ needs. See Graeme’s points above.

      At minimum the units would have to be tamper free similar to rules around hubometers and that will require a whole level of legal compliance and checks.

      Imagine how many hundreds of dollars each unit will cost to install.

      Cameras and etags work most other places. Lets hope there hasn’t been a ministrial seduction as a result of a gps supplier’s glossy sales presentation.

  10. BM 10
    23 June 2016 at 9:23 am

    If we all get electric powered cars how are we going to pay for the roading?

    Only way I can see is toll system using gps, you get billed at a rate of something like 5 cents a km.

    • Ad 10.1
      23 June 2016 at 9:30 am

      That’s the real point in the background; it feels like MoT using the funding-the-infrastructure-needed-for-Auckland debate to secure themselves a long term substitute for the national hypothecated petrol tax.

      Once this proposal firms up, we’ll start to hear the freight companies extoll the virtues of how good everyone would be to have a perpetual User Pays system over every inch of tarmac, starting every time you get into any motor vehicle of any kind.

      • BM 10.1.1
        23 June 2016 at 9:34 am

        We do have a user pays system at the moment.

        It’s the fuel tax built into the price of petrol, depending on your type of vehicle it probably works out around 5 cents a km.

    • weka 10.2
      23 June 2016 at 9:32 am

      Ah, lovely old TINA.

      We have this mechanism for spreading the cost of shared infrastructure over the whole population, it’s called taxes. Alongside sustainability initiatives (e.g. good public transport and cycling systems, getting trucks off the road, reinstating rail, relocalising economies etc), we can reduce road use and spread the cost more equitably.

      • Ad 10.2.1
        23 June 2016 at 9:40 am

        Exactly. Helpfully I don’t work at the Ministry of Transport. So I don’t have to think like that.

        Tax – currently by fully hypothecated tax on fuel – is the most democratic way of spreading the costs of infrastructure.

        The government is making the proposal that this is no longer enough to pay for the infrastructure needed for Auckland. But they have wrongfooted themselves in the debate by veering off into debating the mechanism far too soon.

        • srylands 10.2.1.1
          23 June 2016 at 9:45 am

          “Tax – currently by fully hypothecated tax on fuel – is the most democratic way of spreading the costs of infrastructure. ”
          __________

          The test is not whether the system is ‘democratic’. The yardstick should be efficiency.

          • Ad 10.2.1.1.1
            23 June 2016 at 9:50 am

            No.

            The yardstick of whether the state can pull money out of my bank account is not going to be efficiency.

            It’s a whole bunch more complex than that. Tax is the use of force upon my property for a public good. They need to fully justify any change to that.

          • mac1 10.2.1.1.2
            23 June 2016 at 10:17 am

            ‘Efficiency’ over ‘democracy’? That can take you into some pretty dark places, if you have any sense or knowledge of history, srylands…………..

            Churchill once opined that democracy is not efficient but it sure beat whatever was in second place.

            While I’m here, it could be in some conspiratorial way that the government is wanting to deal with cell-phone usage whilst driving. If a person is mobile, and using a cell-phone, GPS coverage would be a very efficient way of dealing with it. Wouldn’t even need a policeman on the spot- just the data, and a letter in the post requiring you to prove it wasn’t you in the car, and wasn’t you driving. Very efficient. Like speeding tickets in the mail.

          • Draco T Bastard 10.2.1.1.3
            23 June 2016 at 11:38 am

            Tax is the most efficient as well.

          • Macro 10.2.1.1.4
            23 June 2016 at 3:15 pm

            I think you should pay for the road up to your place, and the road to your work place and the road to the shopping centre you use – and as I don’t use those roads – I don’t have to pay. That sounds fair.

    • b waghorn 10.3
      23 June 2016 at 9:33 am

      The same way diesel s pay ,rucs . it would be acceptable in my view to have a system were you can either buy your own rucs on line or at the post shop, or have a GPS system installed but forced installation of GPS is a no go.

      • Ad 10.3.1
        23 June 2016 at 9:43 am

        There’s that rights crux again: with the petrol tax you don’t give up your entire freedom to privacy. With GPS you do.

        I’m sure the Minister will explain how he will overcome these difficulties. It’s just he’s bought himself an entirely unnecessary fight.

      • BM 10.3.2
        23 June 2016 at 9:45 am

        Why?

        If you’re worried about get pinged for speeding, out source the fee collection to a third party with the scope only set for fee collection on distance traveled.

        • b waghorn 10.3.2.1
          23 June 2016 at 9:58 am

          Speeding is small potatoes , its having people like Nicki Hagars travel details a computer click away from someone like collins is where it becomes dangerous.

          • weka 10.3.2.1.1
            23 June 2016 at 10:09 am

            Oe beneficiaries. Which won’t hold up in court (there’s no way to prove who was driving the car), but WINZ and the MSD and the current Minister can run rough shod over their clients anyway.

          • BM 10.3.2.1.2
            23 June 2016 at 10:15 am

            So what do you reckon Collins would do?, order a drone strike?

            • b waghorn 10.3.2.1.2.1
              23 June 2016 at 10:25 am

              Order a whale strike would be more in her reach, the same way key did in the lead up to last three election s.
              Mainly I used that scenario two point out the slippery slope a country is on once its forcibly collecting data on it citizens travel movement.

            • framu 10.3.2.1.2.2
              23 June 2016 at 12:56 pm

              im sure she would like the option

      • weka 10.3.3
        23 June 2016 at 9:46 am

        What about shared cars b? Or cars that are resold? There are plenty of other options for funding roading infrastructure, so we don’t need to support the government’s desire to use tracking tech (which will get used for other things).

        • b waghorn 10.3.3.1
          23 June 2016 at 10:05 am

          Your first to points are up to the people involved to settle between themselves.
          User pays is the only fair way for transport, and as I said as long as there is an option not to be tracked I’m fine with it.

          • weka 10.3.3.1.1
            23 June 2016 at 10:13 am

            But there is tracking under your proposal. People who are privileged will find ways around that, those with less resource or more vulnerable won’t. That’s not a fair society.

            Why is user pays the only fair way for transport but not other things like libraries or health?

            • b waghorn 10.3.3.1.1.1
              23 June 2016 at 10:32 am

              If roads were taxed out of income the person who walks everywhere and the pensioner that gets to the shop once a week would be paying the same % as me who does at least 15000 unnecessary kms a year.
              Libraries are a nice to have first world luxury I guess.
              And I think health should be funded from an acc type set up , as from my experience its less financially stress full to get hurt than it is to get sick.

              • weka …
                23 June 2016 at 10:46 am

                Roads are shared infrastructure. They are used to transport food, people to work, people to hospitals, fire engines etc. They need to exist irrespective of whether you and I ever use them personally (although the numbers of people who would never use a road would be very small).

                In terms of wear on the road by excessive use, there are other ways to address that.

                Not sure what you mean by ACC/health. How would that work for people without a job?

                • b waghorn …
                  23 June 2016 at 12:58 pm

                  An unemployed person would be covered by acc in accident .
                  I’m thinking fund it through levies like acc is funded ie any and all sugar taxes smoking and alcohol taxes . maybe a direct takes from income and ring fence it the same way acc does. Must stop now way off topic sorry Ad

                  • weka …
                    23 June 2016 at 1:14 pm

                    ACC pays out income to people who have jobs, not people who don’t. It will cover some costs of treatment and rehab but not all. It’s not a very good example. Technically Health is meant to be accessible to all people. I’m curious why you think it should be funded by consumer taxes instead of via general taxes in order to make it fair. Plenty of people drink alcohol but don’t have health problems as a result, why should they be paying for that? Direct take from income is what we have now isn’t it?

                    I think given how much user pays is part of the roading conversation it’s relevant. Because if we are saying that roading should be user pays, why not everything else. To my mind it’s not a fair way to do it, it’s actually increases unfairness.

                    • b waghorn …
                      23 June 2016 at 1:41 pm

                      “Plenty of people drink alcohol but don’t have health problems as a result”
                      Plenty of people go there entire working career and drive cars without it injuring them yet they pay acc.
                      Acc seems to be awash with money so it looks like successful system , unless we come up with a way of funding health properly , the privatization by neglect that national is causing will only get worse., by that I mean the the people that pay for their on procedures because they are sick of the pain of waiting for public treatment.

                    • weka …
                      23 June 2016 at 1:48 pm

                      We could find it with taxes. We don’t fully fund now because of ideology. Plus some issues around increase in costs due to mismanagement elsewhere egg running a poverty economy increases need for healthcare.

          • BM 10.3.3.1.2
            23 June 2016 at 10:26 am

            You can be tracked using number plate OCR technology already.

            I watched an interesting show made in the UK where people went on the run from the authorities where the goal was to see how long they could go without being captured.

            In the UK there’s cameras at all major bridges and over passes that scans all number plates, if you flag a number plate and it gets recognized by one of the cameras it creates an alert which is sent to whoever so within a very short time the police/secret service can swoop down and either arrest or follow any person they want.

            • b waghorn 10.3.3.1.2.1
              23 June 2016 at 10:41 am

              OK so you’ve got a proper nutter from white is right party ,who has a bent cop on the payroll in the traffic , and he wants to do a lefty equal rights campaigner some harm , there is no way of completely guaranteeing that that information can’t be gathered and used .

              Oh but nothing to fear nothing to hide a!

              • Draco T Bastard …
                23 June 2016 at 11:50 am

                there is no way of completely guaranteeing that that information can’t be gathered and used .

                No there isn’t but that’s not the way you should be looking at these things.

                You need to ask if the advantages of having such a system in place, with appropriate safeguards, outweighs the risk.

                No one on here has actually asked that question. They’ve just gone full kneejerk Waaaah, the government’s going to be watching meeeeee probably while using their cellphone which is connected to their gmail account and using ad supported apps.

                • b waghorn …
                  23 June 2016 at 12:53 pm

                  When decisions like this are made you have to be looking at worst case scenarios, to not do it is silly. What if in fifteen years time we get a pm and police minister that make key and collins look like good up standing citizens.
                  No one is forcing me to use a pH or go online ,

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    23 June 2016 at 1:00 pm

                    When decisions like this are made you have to be looking at worst case scenarios, to not do it is silly.

                    Yes you do.

                    What if in fifteen years time we get a pm and police minister that make key and collins look like good up standing citizens.

                    And that’s why you have laws that they can’t bypass. Our parliament really is too powerful as it is and we need to change that.

                    And even then you missed the most important point: The corporations presently own the government.

                    No one is forcing me to use a pH or go online ,

                    And you can choose not to own a car.

                    • b waghorn …
                      23 June 2016 at 1:11 pm

                      I could but I don’t want to get a horse and cart . and even if there was public transport out here I doubt they d be keen on me and three dogs going to the trials in whanagmomona on their bus.

          • Draco T Bastard 10.3.3.1.3
            23 June 2016 at 11:44 am

            User pays is the only fair way for transport…

            And it’s also how you end up with inefficient and uneconomic transport options such as personal cars.

    • Draco T Bastard 10.4
      23 June 2016 at 11:36 am

      You missed the bit about number plate recognition?

      Here’s a better question for you though: How are we going to pay for roads when no one has a car?

      That will actually happen because we can’t actually afford personal cars. Never have been able to really but the delusional economic system we have made it appear that we could.

  11. Observer Toke 11
    23 June 2016 at 9:29 am

    .
    To: Jenny Kirk

    . I agree with you that Petrol Tax is an immediate way of reducing traffic congestion and at the same time enables funding of lower cost Public Transport.

    If a weighty extra levy per litre were added to the current cost of petrol and diesel, many drivers would decide that train and bus services are not all that bad. Provided the Bus and Train offer low cost ticketing.

    The extra levy on Petrol / Diesel would not apply south or north of the boundaries of the Super City.

    GPS tracking is just another method of treating us like cattle. It is bad enough that John Key and Bronagh can look at any detail about any of us at any time they wish.

    • Draco T Bastard 11.1
      23 June 2016 at 11:54 am

      It is bad enough that John Key and Bronagh can look at any detail about any of us at any time they wish.

      I think you’ll find that it’s highly illegal for them to do so and probably very hard for them to do so as well.

  12. srylands 12
    23 June 2016 at 9:44 am

    If you want to price roads efficiently, there is no alternative to variable time pricing. It does not need to be GPS based either. Use radio frequency identification tags. Deal with the privacy issues through strict laws.

    Apart from providing regulation, Government should be out of roads. They should all be run by private companies who charge using whatever method works for them. And I can guarantee that won’t be via petrol levies. So if the charging is not location based what is your solution?

    • weka 12.1
      23 June 2016 at 9:48 am

      Crikey, someone actually directly invoking TINA.

    • Ad 12.2
      23 June 2016 at 9:51 am

      That’s a pretty brutal way of de-carbonizing the transport system.
      Very Cuban of you Srylands!

    • vto 12.3
      23 June 2016 at 11:22 am

      “They should all be run by private companies who charge using whatever method works for them.”

      No

      They should all be run by private individuals (every single private individual together) who cannot sell their interest and don’t charge anything.

    • Muttonbird 12.4
      23 June 2016 at 11:26 am

      Mobility of labour and goods would grind to a halt overnight.

      • Draco T Bastard 12.4.1
        23 June 2016 at 11:56 am

        Pretty much and then the private operators would be demanding huge sums from the government because they’re not making enough profit.

    • Draco T Bastard 12.5
      23 June 2016 at 11:55 am

      They should all be run by private companies who charge using whatever method works for them.

      You can’t get competition in roads which means that private companies need to be kept well away from them.

    • framu 12.6
      23 June 2016 at 12:58 pm

      ” They should all be run by private companies who charge using whatever method works for them.”

      how do you, as a consumer, switch suppliers?

    • lprent 12.7
      23 June 2016 at 1:31 pm

      RF tags carry just the same problems as GPS. So easy to spoof that they are pretty pointless.

      They also require a far greater infrastructure along the roadways than reading GPS tracks off a chip.

      But to make the GPS checkable, you’d need to install an alternate external system to provide a feedback check. So far I’m not hearing anything about that.

  13. Observer Toke 13
    23 June 2016 at 9:49 am

    . To BM

    Would strategic cameras record the number plate of electric cars each time they motored in the Super City, and be billed accordingly.?

    • Ad 13.1
      23 June 2016 at 9:52 am

      That’s what happens on the motorway north from Auckland already.
      And you have a choice to use the untolled route if you want to.

    • BM 13.2
      23 June 2016 at 9:53 am

      Why would you need cameras?

      That’s what GPS is for.

      • Ad 13.2.1
        23 June 2016 at 9:56 am

        Because one is a choice you make, for a very specific part of your journey, and the other is no choice at all, as soon as you leave your driveway.

        • BM 13.2.1.1
          23 June 2016 at 10:10 am

          So you only get billed on selected roads? or is it all transit roads ?

          The current fuel tax isn’t just about building new roads it’s also about upkeep and repair of existing roads.

          To factor that into the equation we’re going to have to install 1000’s of cameras all over NZ to capture every off ramp and exit, other wise how else do you calculate kms traveled?

          Be a lot easier using GPS, all self drive vehicles will come with them and most new cars already come with built in GPS.

          GPS really is the only option.

          • weka 13.2.1.1.1
            23 June 2016 at 10:15 am

            This is an Auckland problem, why would we need cameras all over NZ?

            You seem to be forgetting that we need to be reducing personal car use. How will we afford road upkeep if funding is tied to individual use?

            You are also ignoring the data sharing/privacy issues. The govt already can’t be trusted with that.

            • Colonial Viper 13.2.1.1.1.1
              23 June 2016 at 10:18 am

              IIRC Dunedin already has a number of number plate recognition cameras on major roads. Your vehicle movements through those roads are stored.

              • weka …
                23 June 2016 at 10:37 am

                I was meaning the how to pay for roading issue, which seemed to be BM’s argument.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  23 June 2016 at 12:33 pm

                  The other thing is that we need to be pulling money out of roads.

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    23 June 2016 at 12:37 pm

                    Really? And how are ambulances, fire and other emergency crews going to get around? Walk?

                    • marty mars …
                      23 June 2016 at 3:38 pm

                      there are prototype flying vehicle technologies that could work right NOW – there is no good reason to use the roads when the sky is available

            • BM 13.2.1.1.1.2
              23 June 2016 at 10:29 am

              I’m not interested in reducing personal car use.
              You can take the bus, I’ll go by car.

              • weka …
                23 June 2016 at 10:35 am

                I don’t care if you are interested or not. We’re heading into a post-carbon world, we won’t have a choice. Besides, what you want personally misses the fact that user pays needs a certain number of people to work, otherwise you have a small number of people paying a huge amount each.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  23 June 2016 at 12:02 pm

                  Besides, what you want personally misses the fact that user pays needs a certain number of people to work, otherwise you have a small number of people paying a huge amount each.

                  Yep and that’s one of the reasons why capitalism and user pays doesn’t work. It costs far more individually which inevitably increases poverty and the ongoing degradation of the infrastructure that society needs to operate efficiently. The end result is the end of civilisation.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                23 June 2016 at 11:59 am

                I’m not interested in reducing personal car use.

                Shorty, there won’t be a choice. It’ll be either walking or taking public transport.

      • One Two 13.2.2
        23 June 2016 at 10:16 am

        The GPS tracking fantasy is not even your own

        It is the fantasy of those who control the politicians you shrill on behalf of through repeated agitation and asinine commentary, here

        Boring, unimaginative and discarded, is how you will exit this life

        • Ad 13.2.2.1
          23 June 2016 at 10:42 am

          Tone it down.
          No personal abuse here thankyou.

          • One Two 13.2.2.1.1
            23 June 2016 at 12:00 pm

            There was no personal abuse. You have incorrectly interpreted my comment

            • Colonial Viper 13.2.2.1.1.1
              23 June 2016 at 12:18 pm

              Interesting how you wish people an ignorant wasted death and don’t regard it as personal abuse.

              You really are a bit of a sick puppy, aren’t you.

              • One Two …
                23 June 2016 at 2:14 pm

                No!

                That is your interpretation, which is also incorrect

                Each of us can choose how we participate in this life and the way we conduct ourselves

                My observation is that BM is here to agitate and shrill on behalf of…whomever

                In my opinion it is a boring and unimaginative choice that will be discarded when no longer of useful service

                Observations

  14. dukeofurl 14
    23 June 2016 at 10:02 am

    Its likely a full ‘tracking by satellite’ is unworkable. Especially in NZ. For those individuals and companies that have GPS tracking detectors in their car use a Sim card to transfer the data to a central database which is then displayed on a map by some sort of app for the end user.

    The costs to set up that system will be stupendous, and a call centre to handle queries and faults – the GPS frequency was chosen as a ‘window’ to avoid effects from weather- but establishing an initial tracking signal can be a problem.

    This device would have to be installed in all cars /trucks. How would you ensure it was not tampered with or the power disconnected ?
    A lot of people wouldnt want one installed at all including those that come to Auckland only occasionaly or even just pass through.
    How do you find those vehicles that arent ‘transmitting’ – its the classic needle in a haystack.

    I can imagine some sort of ‘masking tape’ that interferes with the signal would soon become available for those forced to install a system.

    • BM 14.1
      23 June 2016 at 10:54 am

      Having had a bit to do with the GPS tracking, you’d be quite surprised how cheap it is to have a unit installed.

      If power is disconnected there’s a battery back up that lasts for a couple of days and a alert is sent to who ever is monitoring the unit.

      Some units even have two power supplies and a battery backup.

      Another reason for the battery is if you lose GPS coverage data can then be saved and then sent once coverage is found.

      • Draco T Bastard 14.1.1
        23 June 2016 at 12:09 pm

        If power is disconnected there’s a battery back up that lasts for a couple of days and a alert is sent to who ever is monitoring the unit.

        A standard CR2032 battery would probably be able to keep a modern multi-satellite GPS going for years. It wouldn’t be able to transmit anything but the data and the fact that it hadn’t been transmitting would be available at the next WOF. Cue large bill for the owner and a police investigation into criminal activities.

      • lprent 14.1.2
        23 June 2016 at 1:37 pm

        Having worked on GPS systems for years at a hardware and code level, you’d be surprised at how easy it is for me to make them read whatever I want them to read.

        This has to be one of the more stupid ideas I have heard.

        Also a market opportunity for someone..

        • Gangnam Style 14.1.2.1
          23 June 2016 at 3:03 pm

          It’s a bit of marketing for Dominos, they advertise their drivers can be tracked by GPS so you can watch them on the computer coming to your house.

  15. Observer Toke 15
    23 June 2016 at 10:11 am

    .

    The Number Plate is visible. Odometers and GPS, tags and flags are not as straight forward as the stable good old Number Plate.

    • Colonial Viper 15.1
      23 June 2016 at 10:16 am

      Yep. And optical character recognition technology for this application is basically 100% accurate these days.

      I mean FFS Singapore sorted out a system for identifying and charging vehicles on specific roads at specific times 25 years ago.

  16. mpledger 16
    23 June 2016 at 10:37 am

    GPS won’t work – someone just needs to put an obstruction in the way for the signals not to work e.g. GPS can’t see through metal roofs.

    • Colonial Viper 16.1
      23 June 2016 at 12:17 pm

      ? And all those GPS map systems in cars…?

      • lprent 16.1.1
        23 June 2016 at 1:39 pm

        Notice where they are mounted. At windows. Typically the antenna is mounted under the plastic (largely transparent to RF) on the top of the dashboard or in some cases on an external antenna.

  17. Richardrawshark 17
    23 June 2016 at 10:56 am

    Blatant rip off, again.

    Tax for roading, now usage charges on top of ruc, and acc levies. petrol tax on and fkn on.

    How much time does it take to do all this shit as opposed to just allocating it at one point , personal tax.

    This is why I get pissed with governments, the continual added taxes which are complicated instead of altering the basic tax rate or adjusting allocations based on enessesity because they are to bloody scared of losing votes.

    everyone crys about fairness, pay one tax, no moans, taxing go’s to ministry of transport and is divided up by regional population, you get your budget deal with it.

    As for spying on our movements, only iof the data went to the states where processors might be able to track everyones rego, correlate that to owner and store all data for them. Orwellian is scare mongering at the level it was portrayed.

    It would require a lot of storage space and fast processing to keep a real time track of the information your worried about.

    • I Feel Love 18.1
      23 June 2016 at 11:41 am

      Heres the proper link http://www.odt.co.nz/news/politics/385591/crown-limos-caught-speeding

      “Mr Spence, who is in charge of the Government’s VIP car fleet, said there have been discussions with the GPS provider who’ve assured them that some of the extremely high speeds recorded are to do with the actual GPS collection system.

      “I would say that there is obviously some data which is very incorrect. You’ll see there are references of speeds of 200 in 100km areas. That’s obviously incorrect.””

      • BM 18.1.1
        23 June 2016 at 11:44 am

        “I would say that there is obviously some data which is very incorrect. You’ll see there are references of speeds of 200 in 100km areas. That’s obviously incorrect.””

        No it’s not.

        • I Feel Love 18.1.1.1
          23 June 2016 at 11:48 am

          I agree with you BM, I just thought it was ironic a GOVT guy saying it didn’t work, obviously arse covering!

          • BM 18.1.1.1.1
            23 June 2016 at 11:54 am

            Yeah, ridiculous attempt at arse covering.

            GPS is more accurate than the speedo on your car.

        • Draco T Bastard 18.1.1.2
          23 June 2016 at 12:17 pm

          Exactly what I was thinking. Modern cars are quite capable of 200km/h and doing it comfortably.

  19. BM 19
    23 June 2016 at 11:13 am

    On the topic of GPS tracking and privacy concerns.

    The way in car tracking works is that every minute/couple of minutes(not sure of the exact timing) a cellular call is made from the in-car unit and sent to a server where the information is collected and then the monitoring app is updated.

    That allows employers to real time track their employees and see where they are on the map at any given time.
    You can actually see the vehicle moving along the road on the map, because of this, there is a monthly fee where x amount of dollars is used to pay for the cellular calls

    For tracking of distance for road tax there’s absolutely no need to have the data transferred back to the server every minute or so, you could have it set, so at the end of the day all collected data is sent to a server for processing.

    If the data collection is set up for end of day collection, there is no privacy concerns as there’s no contact with the server at all while driving. therefore no ability to track a vehicle in real time.

    • I Feel Love 19.1
      23 June 2016 at 11:47 am

      Yes there is a lot of money to be made, a lot of ticket clipping, on selling data to interested parties, more troughing for the middle man, happy days!

      • BM 19.1.1
        23 June 2016 at 12:02 pm

        Depends what sort of data is sent back.

        GPS tracking on work vehicles sends back data like strong g-force events, over speeding, idling as well as where you are, if it’s got integration with the vehicles can bus, fuel economy and other vehicle information.

        The only information I can see getting sent back for road tax collection would be the distance you’ve done for the day.

        Depending how the system gets set up, you would probably have different tariffs depending on what road you drove on, so the data could be broken down into what distance you went on each type of road, that way you can be billed accurately.

        I couldn’t see why any other data needs to be collected.

        • I Feel Love 19.1.1.1
          23 June 2016 at 12:10 pm

          “I couldn’t see why any other data needs to be collected.” Doesn’t matter, collecting ‘data’ is big business, whatever they use it for, to think it won’t be collected is naive.

        • Draco T Bastard 19.1.1.2
          23 June 2016 at 12:22 pm

          The only information I can see getting sent back for road tax collection would be the distance you’ve done for the day.

          They’re talking about charging different amounts for different roads at different times of the day.

          Quite specifically, they are not talking about distance travelled.

          • BM 19.1.1.2.1
            23 June 2016 at 1:37 pm

            Installing a GPS system seems a bit over to top if all the government wants to do is implement a congestion tax?

        • dukeofurl 19.1.1.3
          23 June 2016 at 3:11 pm

          GPS doesnt know anything. Its a timing signal only.
          The GPS car navigation systems are not connected to engine management systems, so cant collect all the information you assume.
          And as the data is transferred by Sim card , I cant see it doing real time engine parameters.
          Some insurance companies had an app which runs on a smart phone ( which can see g forces etc) they would use that to see driver habits, GPS locations ect

    • weka 19.2
      23 June 2016 at 12:00 pm

      “If the data collection is set up for end of day collection, there is no privacy concerns as there’s no contact with the server at all while driving. therefore no ability to track a vehicle in real time.”

      What data would be collected at the end of the day?

      • BM 19.2.1
        23 June 2016 at 12:07 pm

        This is just speculation on my part.

        http://thestandard.org.nz/gps/#comment-1192890

      • Colonial Viper 19.2.2
        23 June 2016 at 12:13 pm

        To BM

        “If the data collection is set up for end of day collection, there is no privacy concerns as there’s no contact with the server at all while driving. therefore no ability to track a vehicle in real time.”

        This is fucking stupid.

        Are you serious?

        So your ex hiding a webcam in your bedroom to capture you having sex with your new partner, doesn’t cause you any privacy concerns because your ex doesn’t stream the video on YouTube in real time but only uploads it the day after?

        Fuck man, have you lost your mind? You’re a smart guy, why don’t you just think for a second before you type this lazy shit out.

        • BM 19.2.2.1
          23 June 2016 at 12:27 pm

          Of course you could have every bit of data sent to a server so you could be done for speeding /dangerous driving or so secret squirrel can keep tabs on where you’ve been or what you’ve been up to.

          Back in the real world though, no voter would agree to that and any government who tried to implement that would be thrown out on their ear.

          You lefties are always so over the top with the paranoia.

          • Colonial Viper 19.2.2.1.1
            23 June 2016 at 12:31 pm

            Grow up. Every digital communication you send in NZ is already copied and securely stored on servers accessible by any of the intelligence services of the FVEY nations.

            And the Deep State doesn’t give a shit if some temporary politicians lose their elected position, it itself continues on just fine.

            • BM 19.2.2.1.1.1
              23 June 2016 at 12:35 pm

              When does Jason Bourne turn up?

              • Ad …
                23 June 2016 at 12:39 pm

                I’m here. 😉

              • Colonial Viper …
                23 June 2016 at 12:43 pm

                Dude, why don’t you get on youtube and start watching some presentations by Bill Binnie, Jacob Appelbaum, Glenn Greenwald or Laura Poitras on the implications of the Snowden revelations are, before you embarass yourself.

    • Kiwiri 19.3
      23 June 2016 at 12:21 pm

      “If the data collection is set up for end of day collection, there is no privacy concerns as there’s no contact with the server at all while driving. therefore no ability to track a vehicle in real time.”

      Satire, parody or idiocy?
      Spoilt for choices.

      • Colonial Viper 19.3.1
        23 June 2016 at 12:22 pm

        I have to shakes my head in dismay

        • Kiwiri 19.3.1.1
          23 June 2016 at 12:32 pm

          Before any such ideas are implemented widely, they should first be trialled in Crown limousines and all vehicles used by Cabinet Ministers, whether private/public vehicles and at all times during the day.

          As well, all surveillance policies should first include and be extended to all internet and communication technologies used by Cabinet Ministers, their family members, staff and then incrementally be extended to their network of friends, business partners and neighbours. These would cover their diaries, telephones and any internet devices.

          All data involved will be released as open source, without censorship, and freely available publicly for data-mining, analysis and reporting. Importantly, data will be automatically available right after a 24-hour period of collection.

          “If the data collection is set up for end of day collection, there is no privacy concerns as there’s no contact with the server at all while [Cabinet ministers are communicating]. therefore no ability to track [their communications, machinations and corruption] in real time.”

  20. joe90 20
    23 June 2016 at 11:23 am

    The state does not need to know where I am.

    The state probably doesn’t know where you are, yet, but the state is certainly able to find out where you’ve been.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_data_recorder

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3726457/Car-black-box-data-helps-convict-driver-after-crash

    • weka 20.1
      23 June 2016 at 12:01 pm

      How many vehicles in NZ have that?

      • Colonial Viper 20.1.1
        23 June 2016 at 12:08 pm

        Loads of newer cars. Much of the data is used for maintenance and diagnostics. Or for stability/traction control.

        But if you go roaring down a back road at 160km/h at 2AM in the morning, its quite likely that your mid sized executive car (Mondeo, Camry, Accord etc) will have a record of you doing that in its memory. Cars with remote connectivity can download that information back to the service centre on a regular basis.

      • joe90 20.1.2
        23 June 2016 at 12:10 pm

        From the Stuff link above –

        All vehicles with airbags were likely to collect the data, but in some models the data could not be retrieved. The technology would become more common in New Zealand.

        “When you look at the American experience. They started out with limited access, now the data is everywhere,” he said.

        The data can now be read in Australia.

        If a car has an SDM unit, it must be in working order before a warrant of fitness can be issued.

        • weka 20.1.2.1
          23 June 2016 at 12:16 pm

          So how does the govt access that?

          • joe90 20.1.2.1.1
            23 June 2016 at 12:23 pm

            As with any other data I assume, through the courts.

            edit: CV makes the point above about connectivity so I guess the state could access data via court ordered surveillance.

            • Ad 20.1.2.1.1.1
              23 June 2016 at 12:26 pm

              I don’t actually mind that as much if it’s after the fact; a Coroner or a crash investigator should be ale to attribute cause. After the fact.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                23 June 2016 at 12:48 pm

                You don’t realise that you’ve just contradicted yourself do you?

                Even ‘real time’ GPS monitoring of your car’s location would be done ‘after the fact’. Under normal conditions, nobody would ever see that data as the billing of the network charges would be done entirely by computer.

                But it may be accessed afterwards if there was a crime in the area. Of course it should only be accessed by court order.

                And, yes, I did notice that people were concerned with being caught speeding.

                • Ad …
                  23 June 2016 at 1:23 pm

                  I mind slightly less about loss of privacy if I’m dead.

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    23 June 2016 at 1:26 pm

                    As I point out, there’s no loss of privacy.

                    • Ad …
                      23 June 2016 at 3:07 pm

                      Yes I’ll show you the Act when I have a moment.

                    • Ad …
                      23 June 2016 at 3:57 pm

                      Here you go; the New Zealand Privacy Act. This Act focuses entirely on the rights of the person to be protected from the state taking and using your personal information. This will help you with the actual rights New Zealanders have in this field.

                      http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0028/latest/DLM297441.html

                      In Part 2 of the Act the Information Privacy Principles are spelled out.

                      A few relevant ones for this discussion are:
                      Principle 4: Manner of Collection of Personal Information
                      Personal information must not be collected in an unlawful, unfair or intrusive manner

                      Principle 5: Storage and Security of Personal Information
                      The agency must ensure that the information is protected against loss, misuse, or unauthorized disclosure.

                      Principle 9: Agency Not To Keep Personal Information For Longer Than Is Necessary
                      The agency must not keep the information for any longer than it is needed for the purpose for which it is collected.

                      Principle 10: Limits On Use Of Personal Information
                      Information collected for one purpose must not be used for any other purpose

                      Principle 11: Limits on Disclosure of Personal Information
                      The information must not be disclosed, except in certain situations.

                      Principle 12: Unique Identifiers
                      An agency must not assign a unique identifier to an individual unless doing so is necessary for the agency to carry out its functions efficiently.

                      And after that, the purposes and powers of the Privacy Commissioner.

                      So, Draco, work yourself through that before blithely consigning everyone to the state’s collection tools with a simple “there is no loss of privacy”. I’m sure the Supreme Court would welcome your expertise in this field.

                      The state does not have the right to presume it can harvest my personal information, including my travel information within New Zealand.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      23 June 2016 at 9:09 pm

                      Principle 4: Manner of Collection of Personal Information
                      Personal information must not be collected in an unlawful, unfair or intrusive manner

                      Is the position of your car in a public space actually personal information?

                      IMO, it isn’t.

                    • Ad …
                      24 June 2016 at 8:31 am

                      Sorry I’ve run out of reply buttons.

                      The question about whether your travel information is private when one travels on a public road is kind of interesting in a philosophical sense. But not relevant to GPS.

                      What is in question is not when personal information becomes public. Better to think of a whole spectrum from white to black to grey.

                      What is in question is whether a state agency can and should collect that information or not. That’s where the Privacy Act provisions come in to force.

                      What is in question second is whether GPS is an appropriate instrument to collect that information. GPS doesn’t care whether you are on a public road, on a mountain, in a national park, or in your driveway. The distinction between public and private realms is obliterated.

                      GPS tracks you from your driveway to the road to a park to a beach to the destination driveway, making no distinction between public and private at all. That’s far more invasive than the HOP card trackers. Yes, that’s a major loss of privacy.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      24 June 2016 at 11:30 am

                      The question about whether your travel information is private when one travels on a public road is kind of interesting in a philosophical sense.

                      That’s just it. We’re not actually talking about you personal travel information. We’re talking about data that is, in a general sense, publicly known.

                      What is in question is whether a state agency can and should collect that information or not. That’s where the Privacy Act provisions come in to force.

                      The first question is certainly one that needs to be asked and we need to ask it in respect to many things: Road design, road usage, resource use and probably a few more that I can’t think of at the moment. In other words, it’s a question that needs to be asked in relation to the use of our scarce resources.

                      But the first question that needs to be asked is if it’s private or public data. If it’s the latter then the Privacy Act doesn’t apply. And then there’s the fact that your use of a vehicle does affect everyone else which means that everyone else has an interest in the use of your car.

                      What is in question second is whether GPS is an appropriate instrument to collect that information. GPS doesn’t care whether you are on a public road, on a mountain, in a national park, or in your driveway. The distinction between public and private realms is obliterated.

                      The public road, the mountain and national park are all public spaces. Your driveway is so small as to be negligible and everybody already knows where you live – it’s on the electoral roll.

                      GPS tracks you from your driveway to the road to a park to a beach to the destination driveway, making no distinction between public and private at all. That’s far more invasive than the HOP card trackers. Yes, that’s a major loss of privacy.

                      Is it though? The data is held but is never looked at unless doing so helps in the solving of a crime. Can you really say that, under those conditions, there is a loss of privacy? Because I can’t.

                      The risk is that someone may use that information for malicious ends. That risk can be mitigated through good process and laws making the total risk minimal. Then question that then needs to be asked is if the benefits of that data collection are worth the risk and that is the question has been pretty much ignored in this entire thread.

                      EDIT:
                      Think of how police track suspect vehicles now. They put out a description and, if they’ve got it, the number plate. People then ring in if they see a vehicle matching that description.

                      This GPS tracking would, essentially, be the same thing just more accurate and faster.

                    • Ad …
                      24 June 2016 at 1:20 pm

                      I’m not sure how anyone would know where I was going in my car, unless I assented to tell them. My route is made public to the state only in the aggregate of traffic patterning. Just as the SIS is only able to read aggregate metadata patterns, unless there is a specific warrant that they have to put a case to a judge for. That’s the same for the Police when they seek warrants to track vehicles.

                      Following your logic means that as soon as we are operating in any public space, I have given an implicit assent to the state to harvest my data. That is an extraordinary and chilling extension of power that I have not heard argued in a court here.

                      The Privacy Act makes no distinction about whether the information is collected in a public or private space.

                      GPS too respects no boundaries.

                      Minister Bridges will need to make some amazing arguments about the extent of implied permission from citizens to the state to harvest data in all public areas.

            • weka 20.1.2.1.1.2
              23 June 2016 at 1:17 pm

              Joe, I thought your original comment was saying that the govt can already access data. That a coroner or police can access some data from some cars after an accident is a really different thing.

              • joe90 …
                23 June 2016 at 2:38 pm

                I said probably doesn’t know where you are, yet and find out where you’ve been so I’ve no idea why you would think I said otherwise.

                And, as CV notes, modern cars have connectivity so IMO it’s not a particularly long bow to draw to say at some point in the near future the state will be able to use that capacity to track individual vehicles.

                • weka …
                  23 June 2016 at 2:44 pm

                  The state has very limited ability to know where people have been, they have to have a crash first serious enough to warrant investigation. Your post did seem misleading in the context of the thread.

                  I don’t see the near future ability of the govt getting access to car service company data.

                  • joe90 …
                    23 June 2016 at 3:17 pm

                    I don’t see the near future ability of the govt getting access to car service company data.

                    I do.

                    Under their myriad of warrantless powers to stop and search police can and do seize and conduct forensic analysis of electronic devices and I’ve no doubt should a vehicle have the ability to record it’s location they could and would do the same.

                    • weka …
                      23 June 2016 at 4:38 pm

                      Sure, but that’s a different thing than the govt having automatic access all the time, which is what Ad’s post was about.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      24 June 2016 at 11:37 am

                      @weka

                      The government wouldn’t have automatic access all the time. Or, at least, shouldn’t do.

  21. Kiwiri 21
    23 June 2016 at 12:00 pm

    No doubt that whatever proposals that will firm up will eventually help make more money for some of the political donors supporting the current regime.

    (No need for sarc tag)

  22. TopHat 22
    23 June 2016 at 12:48 pm

    WTF are we all whining about? This should single handedly wipe out how much greenhouse gas emission? I for one will never own a car again.

    • Ad 22.1
      23 June 2016 at 1:26 pm

      You are about .05 of New Zealand.
      Congrats if you feel you have special virtue.
      Don’t forget, the Police and intelligence teams track all of HOP.

  23. lprent 23
    23 June 2016 at 1:27 pm

    What does amuse me is the idea that it’d be a perfect solution or anything close to it.

    As someone who has spent the last six years working on GPS hardware and software for projects that use GPS, what I see is a great opportunity for GPS spoofers. After all we are talking about receiving very weak radio signals from outer space with an open protocol and probably with no NZ specific proprietary signals embedded.

    Well it is hard enough to keep a GPS fix as it is in NZ. We’re not Singapore near to the equator. It is hard enough to get a good fix as it is.

    With a little ingenuity (and probably some No8 fencing wire to satisfy tradition), you’ll find that it is pretty easy to block or degrade the reception of a GPS signal.

    You could simply put in a jammer. Something on the same band really close at low power would do it.

    Or you could get more sophisticated and generate your own Sats on a GPS frequencies to be the best signals. Drive to work in the middle of the Waitemata harbour!

    These are non-intrusive. Once you start looking at adapting the hardware….

    Basically what I can’t see from this technically illiterate government is any feedback way to prevent this from happening. They are providing a strong incentive at $0.4 per kilometre to do all of these things and many more.

    The most effective way to provide a disincentive to drive is the simplest. Tax fuel on a regional basis and put that into transport costs – especially public transport. But National proved too cowardly to do that.

    • Draco T Bastard 23.1
      23 June 2016 at 1:46 pm

      The most effective way to provide a disincentive to drive is the simplest.

      National are trying to encourage people to still drive. That’s why they cut the fuel tax in the first place and now they’re looking to use the ‘user pays’ route to put the tax in place now that their original decision has been proven to be as stupid as those in favour of the tax said it would be 8 years ago.

      • lprent 23.1.1
        23 June 2016 at 2:13 pm

        National are pretty good at demonstrating their short term stupid thinking. Simon Bridges appears to be a leading exponent of it.

        I suspect that this idea is one of those kite flying exercises that he does for short term benefit and no real expectation of ever doing it. Has anyone seen more bridges being contemplated in Northland after the by-election. I suspect that Bridges will never go there again. After all they voted for Winston Peters…

        :0

        • Ad 23.1.1.1
          23 June 2016 at 3:09 pm

          Feels like an MoT brain explosion to be killed either by public outrage or a little Cabinet chat.

    • Lanthanide 23.2
      23 June 2016 at 10:37 pm

      It’s pretty obvious that the GPS “solution” is a non-starter.

      The only way it’d even have a chance of working is if every car came factory-fitted with one and it was near-impossible to tamper with. But even then, putting in things to block or spoof the signal is still quite possible. The other problem is how you even collect the data from all the cars anyway – seems like an ideal way to overload the cell towers if it’s a live collection system, and if it’s an end-of-day or night-time collection system, then you’ve still got to coordinate all the cars to upload at different times to avoid overloading.

      The obvious solution to this problem is exactly what London implemented in 2003 – the congestion charge which is based on cameras taking photos of car number plates as they enter certain streets in the city, and the owner of the car gets automatically billed for the charge for that day. It’s not as fine-grained as what the government wants with different peak rate and shoulder rates, though. They already use this style of system on the Auckland Northern Gateway.

      The GPS thing is a pipe dream that will never eventuate because the technical challenges are too big, and of course there’s the massive privacy concerns as well.

  24. joe90 24
    23 June 2016 at 1:31 pm

    If you were a government, what would you do with a GPS tracker on every single vehicle in New Zealand?

    That seems to be what Minister Bridges is heading towards with his view of tolling.

    Looking through a list of toll collection systems and no mention of GPS with almost all using a RFID tag and go/remote read.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electronic_toll_collection_systems

  25. Brett Cooper 25
    23 June 2016 at 5:20 pm

    I like it, users pays and this would be the fairest system. It could catch bad drivers and serial speeders and reduce the insurance arguments if there was a black box gps. Cars kill people and should be monitored instance of a bad driver gets behind the wheel. This could save lives.

    • Ad 25.1
      23 June 2016 at 5:26 pm

      Take a moment to think about who it would punish the most:

      – Those who drive the furthest
      – Those who can least afford to travel (ie the poor)
      – Those for whom there is no public transport alternative (ie brown and poor by great disproportion, and those not living in cities)
      – Those who are previously criminalized (ie brown and poor by great disproportion)
      – Those who have visually dodgy cars. (ie the poor)

      In other words, this user pays system targets poor people.

  26. BlueSky 26
    24 June 2016 at 5:42 am

    I want access to all the data the government or any company has on me before they can collect/store it.

    I want the ability to easily challenge that data and have that information removed in the case of companies.

    The government and companies should also provide information on how they came by the data they have. (With exceptions around national security (rarely) and criminality (more common)) Businesses have no reasons to not provide this.

    We need a Digital Rights Act.

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