GPS

Written By: - Date published: 8:00 am, June 23rd, 2016 - 219 comments
Categories: Abuse of power, Deep stuff, democracy under attack - Tags: ,

Big brother

If you were a government, what would you do with a GPS tracker on every single vehicle in New Zealand?

That seems to be what Minister Bridges is heading towards with his view of tolling. Only the elite see this as a cost-attribution instrument.

Of course, many of us willingly give up our privacy to our cellphone apps and to social media.

But we have to offer that up.

And granted, motorways and roads are already highly regulated environments. There’s no clear right to privacy in New Zealand.

But our Bill of Rights Act has a freedom of movement clause in Section 18. For good reason. But they think they can limit us moving, simply through fear.

How long would it last before NZTA was required to share the data with: NZ Police, the SIS, IRD, MSD, Housing NZ, GCSB, and then as we’ve seen, data goes to Ministers to roast us alive and naked? Not long.

The state does not need to know where I am.

Our Bill of Rights Act section 25(c) also defines the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty. Since anyone can be tracked anywhere in a gps’d vehicle, we will be under perpetual surveillance. The onus should be reversed: the state should have to prove when it needs this “warrant” to enter my space.

US Supreme Court Judge Sotomayor’s dissenting judgement against evidence obtained in a random cop stop railed against citizens being caught in the grip of the “carceral state”. It’s coming here if this succeeds. Those in NZ who are most victimized by our grossly jailed society have the most to fear from this GPS move. Sotomayor was on point here too.

Just as we did with the GCSB bill, we should rise up and fight this.

219 comments on “GPS ”

  1. weka 1

    National have tried this before (90s?), when they wanted all cars to carry monitoring devices for user pays on national roads.

    I think there are differences between phones and cars, and companies and goats. And I agree this should be resisted. National are making other surveillance moves too, via data sharing.

    This is also another example of tech running ahead of societal values.

    • b waghorn 1.1

      Very slippery slope is what I think and I’m a boarder line authoritarian.

      A regional fuel tax is the simplest way to go. But Manned toll gates create employment and would spread the traffic better than those quick rotation red lights they have at on ramps.

    • Ad 1.2

      If the state wanted to know where I was – whether reasonable or not – what would the difference be between state-accessed GPS in my phone and state-accessed GPS in my car?

      • Colonial Viper 1.2.1

        It allows the state to bring additional evidence to court correlating your movements when they charge you for sedition and terrorist acts against the establishment i.e. going to a climate march.

        • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.1

          You do know that sedition has been removed from the law don’t you?

          • McFlock 1.2.1.1.1

            sounded awesome though, didn’t it /sarc

            • Colonial Viper 1.2.1.1.1.1

              Fucking lambs to the slaughter you guys. Makes no difference to me in the end, of course.

              • Anno1701

                “Fucking lambs to the slaughter you guys”

                lol…like they arent already watching whoever they want anyway…

              • McFlock

                shit you’re right, they might arrest me for witchcraft, too

      • weka 1.2.2

        You can turn the GPS off on your phone or use a phone that doesn’t have GPS or leave your phone at home.

        The state doesn’t have access to phone GPS except under exceptional circumstances. Why did you ask what the difference was?

        • Ad 1.2.2.1

          Just to help you make that clear distinction between mobile phone GPS and vehicle GPS. The past was clear about the different degrees of assent to the decrease in the realm of freedom between GPS in either car or phone. This isn’t a moment to collapse big categories of GPS or personal data capture together.

          • weka 1.2.2.1.1

            I don’t know where you are going with that Ad. I’m not collapsing big categories of GPS or data collection together. Can you please be more clear on what you are meaning?

          • RedLogix 1.2.2.1.2

            I’m not so sure you can untangle them quite so easily Ad.

            The history of data capture, storage and integration has an arrow only pointing one way.

            • Ad 1.2.2.1.2.1

              God I wish you were wrong. But you’re not.
              I was trying to avoid sounding like a tinfoil hat-wearing loonie.

              • Colonial Viper

                Yesterday’s conspiracy theory is today’s conspiracy fact.

                The NSA is not building ten thousand square metre petabyte scale data storage facilities for the fun of it.

                Adam Smith had it figured out what almost 3 centuries ago?

                “People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.” ― Adam Smith

        • Andre 1.2.2.2

          Even with your phone GPS turned off, “they” can still get the records of which cell tower your phone was connecting to. Not as fine a resolution as GPS, but still rough tracking of where you are. You need to turn off your phone completely or leave it at home if you really don’t want your phone leaving a record of your movements.

      • Doogs 1.2.3

        Because the GPS in your car would tell what address you were at, but the GPS in the phone would show that you were in the bedroom.

  2. Colonial Viper 2

    This is a have.

    A carbon fee should apply to all imports of fuel based on its carbon content, and the resulting dividend paid to every single citizen.

    No need for all of this complex surveillance state shite.

    • Ad 2.1

      If I were in the Ministry of Transport, I’d be advising this to be a first step towards weaning the entire transport system off the core funding mechanism of hypothecated fuel tax, which relies on oil consumption, towards one which is essentially user-pays by the mile.

      Minister Bridges in h is first year felt that the current National Land Transport Fund wasn’t going to be under stress for quite some time, but eventually as the fleet got younger and more electric, and people were more targeted about the distances they drove, eventually the whole fund would come under stress.

      The GPS tolling move from a funding perspective is a step towards a 100% RUC funding system.

      • Colonial Viper 2.1.1

        Internationally a carbon fee system is gaining attention, and it is something that James Hansen strongly supports as the best way ahead to decarbonise in a hurry,

    • instrider 2.2

      Behind the times again CV. There already is such a charge due to the ETS. Each fuel has its own emission factor based on carbon content

      • Colonial Viper 2.2.1

        Hmmmm it seems that you can’t tell the difference between a per kg carbon fee redistributed to the people, and the current ETS scam.

        • instrider 2.2.1.1

          So you don’t deny there is an existing charge based on fuel carbon content, you just don’t like the level of that charge and how it is administered. You are in the same camp as Exxon with your love for the idea of a straight carbon tax

  3. Sabine 3

    Panopticon.

    I suggest that we implant the GPS at birth. As for the State surveillance, why it is good for you, innit? You will think once twice thrice about using the car or going for a walk……oh yeah, GPS Implant.

    Seriously, i can’t even begin to understand how anyone can even think about this seriously.

    Re-instate the Fuel tax. Done.

    let those that cry “poor me’ explain how they think the Infrastructure needed is going to be build.

    Christ, no wonder we can’t have nice things.

    • Colonial Viper 3.1

      The most highly educated, highly qualified people are the ones who are fucking our society over.

      • Sabine 3.1.1

        thanks for telling me that. I did not know that . Obviously.

        \no the most dangerous people are supported by cheap fucks that a. don’t want to pay ‘their money’ into taxes, b. don’t want ‘their money’ going to someone they deem unworthy, c. don’t want to ‘burden their business’ with an expense they believe can be paid for by someone else.

        I am sorry, but frankly, all the despots of the modern world were a. voted in or b. appointed, and c. were always supported usually by a bunch of moronic fuckwits that would like to put back in their place anyone they feel steps out of line. This could be…..women, migrants, other faith, other skin pigmentation, other sexual orientation etc etc etc. Trump comes to mind.

        • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1

          Killary should be top of your list. Trump is clear about what his positions are. Killary tries to make like she’s some nice woman who cares a shit about you and your family.

      • Anno1701 3.1.2

        “The most highly educated, highly qualified people are the ones who are fucking our society over.”

        The predator class

        like leeches on society

        “We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live” – Lucy Parsons

    • RedLogix 3.2

      I’ve said this before: we almost have the technology to permanently record the movement, actions and words of everyone from birth to death. 24/365.

      No exceptions, no breaks. (Except of course for the very wealthy and powerful, who can invoke the need for confidentiality.)

      It would more or less eliminate all crime and make the few remaining Court processes extremely simple to determine.

      No-one is actually all that interested in watching you. Not even your boring sex life. All they need is to store it in case it is needed later. And to spot the troublemakers.

      • weka 3.2.1

        Not sure about the crime thing. Criminals seem to be able to keep up with the tech curve well enough, so there will always be work arounds.

      • Ad 3.2.2

        Ah the Minority Report fantasy.

        Which is another take on this.

        While the house and our phone are regularly abused as realms of privacy (because children or others give our details away), it’s this state+tax+survelliance link that makes my hair stand on end. It used to be that the car was the ultimate source of freedom; freedom of speed, of travel, or spatial autonomy.

        Uber and driverless cars already link movement and GPS very closely together. That step is already taken and well on its way. It’s the link with tax that really hits hard.

        At the moment you can be stopped from leaving the country if you have an outstanding student loan. What’s to stop the state from saying you cannot drive your vehicle on a public road unless you pay all your debts to society?

        The freedom that the analogue car affords is more powerful than either the house or personal use of social media.

        • Colonial Viper 3.2.2.1

          What’s to stop the state from saying you cannot drive your vehicle on a public road unless you pay all your debts to society?

          You mean pay all your debts to an increasingly tyrannical security state.

          Best not to confuse your government with your country, or your community.

          • Draco T Bastard 3.2.2.1.1

            Best not to confuse your government with your country, or your community.

            Actually, the problem seems to be the other way around:

            We’ve forgotten that we are the government and parliament is our servant.

            • Colonial Viper 3.2.2.1.1.1

              We’ve forgotten that we are the government and parliament is our servant.

              A nice theory, I’ll grant you that.

              • Draco T Bastard

                It’s not a theory, it’s how things should be and we should be working to make it that way.

        • Draco T Bastard 3.2.2.2

          Uber and driverless cars already link movement and GPS very closely together. That step is already taken and well on its way. That step is already taken and well on its way. It’s the link with tax that really hits hard.

          Think of it this way then:

          Profit is a tax.

          • Ad 3.2.2.2.1

            Tax by the state is not the same in law, in force, in collection, or in effect, as corporate profit.

            • Draco T Bastard 3.2.2.2.1.1

              It makes absolutely no fucken difference except that the corporates are more likely to onsell the information to make even more profit.

              • Ad

                Coercion makes all the difference in the world.
                I take it you’ve never been in jail then.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Coercion makes all the difference in the world.

                  Ah, a libertarian false argument.

                  We live in a democracy (ignoring, for the moment, that it more a elected dictatorship) which means that we set those rules, that we delegated the authority to enforce them and that we can elect a government to change them.

                  Under such a system there can be no coercion.

                  • Ad

                    The delegated authority we have given is to the Police, who have the right of coercion. It’s not an argument from any ism. It’s a description of reality.

        • McFlock 3.2.2.3

          Thing is, you can choose to not use uber, or to turn off gps when you’re not using it.

          And then I might check in somewhere else on facebook, or even just into the hotel at the reception desk.

          Leaving it distributed like that makes it expensive and user-intensive for anyone to put together my movement pattern.

          But gps tolling puts the daily commute into the a single database that will be the go-to movement tracking system for whomever, as well as all the billing (read: “movement”) information being available to random callcentre staff. And that’s if they only track on the highways – what do people reckon the odds are that unbilled movements will also be on a logfile somewhere?

          • Draco T Bastard 3.2.2.3.1

            as well as all the billing (read: “movement”) information being available to random callcentre staff.

            There should only be two ways that the call centre staff have access to the data. One is when they have verified that the person that they’re talking to actually owns the data (i.e, that the car is actually theirs) or when they have a court order to access it. Any other time any attempt to access it will land them in jail for a long time.

            The court order can be verified by via the courts system. A little more difficult to verify a person though.

            • Colonial Viper 3.2.2.3.1.1

              Just naive mate. Numerous hospital and police staff inappropriately access patient records and criminal case records. A few of them get caught and prosecuted. Some of those end up with a bit of jail time.

              You’re living in a dream land.

              The court order can be verified by via the courts system. A little more difficult to verify a person though.

              You act as if an entire additional group of people aren’t going to have access to that info as part of the process of the court order.

              • Draco T Bastard

                Numerous hospital and police staff inappropriately access patient records and criminal case records. A few of them get caught and prosecuted.

                Yes, a very few people actually do that so we need to make it more difficult for them to do so and easier for them to get caught doing so. It doesn’t mean that we get rid of the tools that allow us to maintain a public health system that uses less than 0.5% of the population.

                Or do you really think that we should go back to a health system that requires 5% of the population and can easily give someone the wrong medicine and killing them because the doctor didn’t have access to the right information?

                As I say, we need to look at the benefits compared to the risks and not just have a kneejerk reaction to it.

                I’m not being naive in my support of these things. You’re being stupid in not thinking about the benefits that we get from using modern systems or the systems that we can put in place to mitigate the very real risks.

                • Ad

                  Wait till Paula Bennett gets your file.
                  Or Judith. Or Ede. Then you’ll figure the cost-benefit of your own rights.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    If they get access to that information then they should be going to jail permanently with loss of everything, including trusts, that they own.

                    And then there’s the fact that if I’m out in public then the public knows where I am and I don’t care about them knowing that either.

                    You’re jumping up and down over nothing. The data is of no interest to anybody unless it can be used to solve a crime.

                    That’s the bit that you fail to grok. Recording the data is one thing and in and of itself does not impinge upon your privacy. It’s accessing that data that would do so and we would need to have some serious rules about access to it. Those rules would have to acknowledge that the data is yours and so you can access whenever you want but nobody else is allowed to without a court order. A politician shouldn’t have access to it at all.

                    • McFlock

                      The data is of no interest to anybody unless it can be used to solve a crime.

                      How do you know the use any data will be put to? What dots it provides and how they’ll be joined with other dots?

                      You’ve got a comprehensive list of people’s movements over days, weeks, months and years. You know when they’re home, roughly where they live, whether they make regular detours to which other suburbs, what time they go to work, whether they go on holiday (zero activity for a week or two) every year. Employers could use it, spouses could use it, private investigators could use it, insurance companies could use it, cops could use it for fishing rather than “solving”, stalkers could use it, burglars could use it, kidnappers could use it, vehicle hijackers could use it to find patterns in cash transit van movements, etc etc etc.

                      Just because you can’t think of any other use for it, it doesn’t mean other people mightn’t want to flip someone a few hundred bucks for the information.

                      Yes, you might be able to develop protections for that data which will work for a lot of the time, but the first protection to be considered is whether that data needs to be collected in the first place.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      You know when they’re home, roughly where they live, whether they make regular detours to which other suburbs, what time they go to work,

                      No, you don’t know that at all. The data is stored, yes, but that data shouldn’t be accessed without a court order.

                      Just because you can’t think of any other use for it, it doesn’t mean other people mightn’t want to flip someone a few hundred bucks for the information.

                      And that’s why we would have laws against doing that sort of thing same as we have laws against murder. The laws don’t stop the murder but they do mean that we can prosecute afterwards.

                      Yes, you might be able to develop protections for that data which will work for a lot of the time, but the first protection to be considered is whether that data needs to be collected in the first place.

                      Yes, correct, BINGO!!!!

                      That is most definitely the first question that needs to be asked.
                      Then we’d ask if those benefits were great enough that the risks were worth taking and if they were then we’d be looking at ways to mitigate those risks.

                      What we shouldn’t do is write it all off under the kneejerk Waaaah, the governments watching me and may catch me speeding…

                    • McFlock

                      Did anyone mention speeding?
                      There are much bigger problems than that.

                      The data is stored, yes, but that data shouldn’t be accessed without a court order.

                      You’re talking “shoulds” about a system implemented under the watch of the current government.

                      Do you not think there might be an inherent problem with that expectation?

                      And the start and end points of all transactions will need to be on the billing data so it can be verified by the customer. So now your call centre has access to it, alongside anyone who knows your name and birthday (or whatever other token id is requested). So much for “court order”.

                      The laws don’t stop the murder but they do mean that we can prosecute afterwards.

                      Glad to know there’s no murder problem in NZ, and that every murder is identified and the (correct) murderer convicted.

                      Yay, call centre operator gets disciplined for selling information to a criminal organisation. That’s the end of the problem, lol

                    • Ad

                      I’ll pull out the bits of our Privacy Act in a minute for you.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Did anyone mention speeding?

                      Yes

                      You’re talking “shoulds” about a system implemented under the watch of the current government.

                      Do you not think there might be an inherent problem with that expectation?

                      Yes I do. That would be one of the risks that we’re talking about. Then, of course, there’s nothing we can do to stop the bastards implementing it as it stands which is why I keep calling for reforming the system.

                      And even if they did implement it badly a later government could improve it.

                      And the start and end points of all transactions will need to be on the billing data so it can be verified by the customer.

                      Yes, which is why the person who owns the car would have access to that data at all times via online portal.

                      Yay, call centre operator gets disciplined for selling information to a criminal organisation.

                      Glad to know that the criminal organisation also got caught.

                      Do I need to ask you the same questions that I asked CV?

                    • McFlock

                      Did anyone mention speeding?

                      Yes

                      Oh, nice. So it’s gone from toll road to another use within days of the idea being floated. Wee bit of mission creep already, but we needn’t be concerned about privacy /sarc

                      You’re talking “shoulds” about a system implemented under the watch of the current government.

                      Do you not think there might be an inherent problem with that expectation?

                      Yes I do. That would be one of the risks that we’re talking about. Then, of course, there’s nothing we can do to stop the bastards implementing it as it stands which is why I keep calling for reforming the system.

                      So why are you defending increased powers for those same bastards?

                      And even if they did implement it badly a later government could improve it.

                      And if they implement it well, then a future government could still fuck it up. When there are plenty of less invasive ways of sorting out road tolls (that shouldn’t exist anyway).

                      And the start and end points of all transactions will need to be on the billing data so it can be verified by the customer.

                      Yes, which is why the person who owns the car would have access to that data at all times via online portal.

                      lol – that’s super. Totally wheedle. Can’t go wrong.

                      Yay, call centre operator gets disciplined for selling information to a criminal organisation.

                      Glad to know that the criminal organisation also got caught.

                      Who said the organisation got caught? Plenty more operators where that person came from.

                      Do I need to ask you the same questions that I asked CV?

                      No, because in this context it’s a bullshit question. We’re discussing implementing a new programme that will affect a million people and you’re hand-waving the legal restrictions that will hopefully preserve our safety. Workplace safety and minimum wage laws place imperfect legal restrictions on things that already existed.

                      A better comparison is if somebody has floated the idea of legalising assault rifles for rabbit control, and you’re arguing that we can make suitable safety controls to minimise the potential spree-killing problem that the idea opens us up to. Here’s a thought: look for another solution rather than defending an overtly dangerous proposal with regulatory hand-waving.

                    • Ad

                      They should be going to jail. But they don’t. Instead they humiliate and destroy people’s lives. Have a look back at Dirty Politics if you’ve forgotten the difference between who they are supposed to do and what Ministers actually do with it.

                      You should not be so naïve to think politicians will not use private information to destroy people, whether lawful or not.

                      If the Minister of Transport wants to spell out how he will work through the Bill of Rights Act provisions and the Privacy Act provisions, then he should have done so before opening his stupid mouth. But please, keep defending him if you like.

                      I address the other points below with the relevant parts of the Privacy Act. Rather than make them up like you are doing, this is how rules are actually formed to allow the state to access our personal data, or not. Also, they will have to prove the BORA test in any of the draft legislation that this will require.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      So why are you defending increased powers for those same bastards?

                      Where have I done that?

                      Who said the organisation got caught?

                      You did. Otherwise you wouldn’t have known that the call centre operator got paid by such.

                      No, because in this context it’s a bullshit question.

                      Ah, so you to don’t believe that laws work – gotcha.

                      They should be going to jail.

                      Yes they should be. The reason why they didn’t was because we don’t have the laws in place to put the fuckers in jail when they do shit like that and, due to the supremacy of parliament, even if we did they could change the laws so that we didn’t. Which is why I keep saying that we need laws preventing them from acting like they do that they can’t change. I believe it’s called a written constitution.

                      If the Minister of Transport wants to spell out how he will work through the Bill of Rights Act provisions and the Privacy Act provisions, then he should have done so before opening his stupid mouth.

                      Why?

                      Much better for us, IMO, for him to open his mouth first.

                    • McFlock

                      So why are you defending increased powers for those same bastards?

                      Where have I done that?

                      Every time you defend the validity of GPS tracking all road-using vehicles in auckland, because that is not currently being done.

                      Who said the organisation got caught?

                      You did. Otherwise you wouldn’t have known that the call centre operator got paid by such.

                      Hmmm. Last news report I saw of a similar offence was a WINZ case manager done for selling information. Nobody else was arrested, even though the only reason he was being investigated was information received that he’d been selling to debt collectors for some time. Sadly, it seems that people buying the information don’t leave an audit trail.

                      No, because in this context it’s a bullshit question.

                      Ah, so you to don’t believe that laws work – gotcha.

                      They don’t work perfectly. That’s why people are murdered every week. The only way to ensure crimes will not be committed is to make them logically impossible to commit: you can’t steal information that doesn’t exist. So come up with a better reason to GPS-track all cars in Auckland than “pay a road toll”.

                      London, for example, has a congestion zone charge. The vehicles moving in and out of the zones are checked, but movements within, along or outside are not checked by a fucking billing system. Because it’s not needed. And this is in a city carpeted with cameras (albeit most of them not centrally collated).

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Every time you defend the validity of GPS tracking all road-using vehicles in auckland, because that is not currently being done.

                      I haven’t actually done that. I’ve questioned the kneejerk reaction that fuels this post. Yes, I’ve put up some arguments that could be used in support of putting in place a GPS, usually in response to false assertion from the opposite direction, to try and get the discussion actually covering the pros and cons of it rather than just the emotional gobshite that’s been going on but I haven’t actually supported it. I tend to be ambivalent about it.

                      The vehicles moving in and out of the zones are checked, but movements within, along or outside are not checked by a fucking billing system.

                      According to a documentary I saw on it a few years ago the UK camera system can accurately track a vehicle through about 90% of the country. The UK has millions of cameras and storage for about 5 years worth of imaging. And that was years ago, probably more than a decade.

                      And the congestion charging system is a “fucking billing system”.

                    • McFlock

                      lol so you haven’t supported or defended it, except where you’ve ” put up some arguments that could be used in support of putting in place a GPS”.

                      The vehicles moving in and out of the zones are checked, but movements within, along or outside are not checked by a fucking billing system.

                      According to a documentary I saw on it a few years ago the UK camera system can accurately track a vehicle through about 90% of the country. The UK has millions of cameras and storage for about 5 years worth of imaging. And that was years ago, probably more than a decade.

                      Which is irrelevant to the London congestion charge, because Transport for London doesn’t cover the entire country, or even monitor all the cameras inside the congestion zone. What it does do is have ANPR cameras at the perimeter and roving patrols like parking wardens with ANPR cameras. What it does not do is track all movements of all vehicles within the congestion zone, or have the technology to even possibly track the movements of all vehicles outside the zones it charges for. Whether the British police can do that is another matter – the point is that the billing system only gathers the information it needs to do its job, without the possibility of mission creep.

            • McFlock 3.2.2.3.1.2

              Should be.
              But we’re talking about poorly-paid callcentre staff. Who have most of the verification data they need for basic transactions – easiest case is to get the call from a collaborator, and text them the account number, dob, etc that they then parrot back at you – the call monitor sees no difference.

              And the data is being collected for what – a toll road? Even if it were a valid reason for a valid charge, gps tracking is the most privacy-invading way to do it. It’s like going to the doctor for hiccups and he sticks his finger up your arse. It might work, but it’s usually a last resort.

              • Draco T Bastard

                easiest case is to get the call from a collaborator, and text them the account number, dob, etc that they then parrot back at you – the call monitor sees no difference.

                The call monitor would pick that one up in an instant. The call centre person should not be giving out personal information on a call.

                And all calls to call centres, especially government ones, are now recorded.

                And the data is being collected for what – a toll road? Even if it were a valid reason for a valid charge, gps tracking is the most privacy-invading way to do it.

                Well, the way to do the charging is certainly open for discussion as well. We could use cameras on every corner that can do OCR on the license plate and probably facial recognition as well. Actually, that has an advantage. If the owner of the car says that they weren’t driving it we could check the photo against the driver licence photo. Hell, we could do that in the first place and avoid the complaint.

                They’d also pick everyone walking by such as purse snatchers and home invasions.

                How invasive did you say GPS was?

                • McFlock

                  The call monitor would pick that one up in an instant. The call centre person should not be giving out personal information on a call.

                  No. The bit where they ask for your mothers maiden name, they see it on a screen. So they cue it up, text it to you on their personal phone, and you say it to them over the callcentre line. All the monitor hears is a delay which you can blag around, ums ahs “what was that” etc.

                  You could go all bank-like, but then you now need a PIN to drive down the damned road.

                  As for your camera idea, did you work hard trying to think of an even worse idea, rather than maybe coming up with a better one (fuel tax, or toll gate, for example)? Or do you just have a complete lack of imagination when it comes to problem solving?

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    So they cue it up, text it to you on their personal phone, and you say it to them over the callcentre line.

                    Last time I worked in a call centre we weren’t allowed cell phones on the floor. There’s a very good reason for that if you think about it.

                    As for your camera idea, did you work hard trying to think of an even worse idea

                    No, it just came to me while I was giggling gleefully at your inability to defend your kneejerk position.

                    • McFlock

                      lol

                      awwww, cellphones aren’t allowed. I’m sure that means there’s absolutely no way to communicate information. Like maybe dude calls up on day one, fails the id test but that’s ok because now the operator has seen the answers with a legit reason to open the file, tells the dude outside of work and the dude can call up whenever and now doesn’t even need to speak to their contact.

                      It’s not a kneejerk position to argue that no security measure is perfect, therefore the data collected should be the minimum amount necessary to complete the function. It’s a basic element of information security. But no, you think it’s perfectly reasonable to GPS track pretty much every vehicle in auckland just to pay for fucking toll roads.

  4. weka 4

    Not getting the connection with tolls, is that an Auckland thing?

    Edit, it appears to be an Auckland thing, partial explanation here,

    http://thestandard.org.nz/when-is-a-toll-road-not-a-toll-road/

  5. Jenny Kirk 5

    Its just another way of putting the cost of gathering the tolls, onto the individual.
    This govt is so stupid – if it really did think it needed to toll Aucklanders for congested roads, then the easiest and cheapest way to do it is via an additional regional petrol tax. But ShonKey has said NO to that ….. silly silly man … and they’re now floundering around trying to find a way to pay for the congestion tax infrastructure.

  6. dv 6

    AND no need for speed camera!!

  7. vto 7

    I hate this shit and will resist to the limits….

    however, I don’t see this stopping. I see cameras all over the whole place. So many that you will be able to go online to every part of the globe (well, the populated parts) via the local cameras and see what is gong on there live. The entire globe will be able to be watched at every point in time by everyone..

    .. don’t think there is much to be gained from resisting the gps and tracking devices..

    .. the resistance must be aimed at the people who wish to take advantage for their own gain.. i.e. the political establishment

  8. Graeme 8

    I’d call this as a dead cat, and the one that was on your lap by the fire last night.

    Bridges want’s us talking about privacy rather than the governments spectacular backflip, 720º with three full twists and pike, on the tolling issue. Once again the best Labour government we’ve ever had… (in the view of a few curmudgeons out right)

    GPS monitoring doesn’t pass even the most basic logic test for efficient implementation. The government would have to retrofit the entire vehicle fleet. So a separate box on every vehicle, checked at WOF and roadside. Can see a lot of electrical faults. Since the boxes will be added onto existing systems these faults will occur anyway and will probably cause more than a few headaches. Will be as effective as a Carless Day sticker and a turps soaked rag.

    Number plate recognition is already being used on the tunnels north of Auckland, and there hasn’t been any issues appear in public apart from a couple of recidivist dodgers. Police have also invested in this technology, evidently in a big way, again without too many problems. Complexity could be an issue in an Auckland context with multiple entry and exit points, but that would apply to all remote monitoring methods.

    The issue is not around the gathering of the information, that’s all around us now and huge, but around the ethics of it’s use and miss-use.

    • b waghorn 8.1

      “Bridges want’s us talking about privacy rather than the governments spectacular backflip, 720º with three full twists and pike, on the tolling issue”

      And yet henry the douche bag was laying the whole thing at goffs feet, I wonder what rewards national have lined up for him for his committed service to running cover defence for them.
      This will be the issue that will decide the Auckland mayoralty.

    • Ad 8.2

      And there you have it.

      There are plenty of existing accurate tolling instruments available such as gantried number plate recognition, without going full Big Brother via a GPS attached to your car. There’s been one going on SH1 north of Auckland for about 10 years now.

      Notably the existing tolled route has an alternative slower non-tolled route, which is as it should be according to the legislation.

      • Graeme 8.2.1

        Yeah, London’s had it for 10 years and it hasn’t hampered the City much, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_congestion_charge

        And it seems to be working. Traffic is down, public transport is the norm, and air quality is improving. And from what I see from a rellie living over there, a very liveable city.

        The net returns are bit light, as in costs are about half gross revenue and some of the projections in the table at the bottom of the Wikipedia article are strange to say the least when revenue figures aren’t provided.

  9. mauī 9

    Well there’s already lots of companies with gps in their vehicles who want to know where their staff are…

    • Ad 9.1

      Which reminds me of exactly why prisoners in New Zealand gets strip searched: although they don’t find contraband on more than 2% of prisoners, it’s worth degrading 98% of the people who go in there.

    • instrider 9.2

      Yes but they don’t have to be built to a regulatory standard which allows the force of law ro be used against the owner. They just have to be fit for purpose for the owners ‘ needs. See Graeme’s points above.

      At minimum the units would have to be tamper free similar to rules around hubometers and that will require a whole level of legal compliance and checks.

      Imagine how many hundreds of dollars each unit will cost to install.

      Cameras and etags work most other places. Lets hope there hasn’t been a ministrial seduction as a result of a gps supplier’s glossy sales presentation.

  10. BM 10

    If we all get electric powered cars how are we going to pay for the roading?

    Only way I can see is toll system using gps, you get billed at a rate of something like 5 cents a km.

    • Ad 10.1

      That’s the real point in the background; it feels like MoT using the funding-the-infrastructure-needed-for-Auckland debate to secure themselves a long term substitute for the national hypothecated petrol tax.

      Once this proposal firms up, we’ll start to hear the freight companies extoll the virtues of how good everyone would be to have a perpetual User Pays system over every inch of tarmac, starting every time you get into any motor vehicle of any kind.

      • BM 10.1.1

        We do have a user pays system at the moment.

        It’s the fuel tax built into the price of petrol, depending on your type of vehicle it probably works out around 5 cents a km.

    • weka 10.2

      Ah, lovely old TINA.

      We have this mechanism for spreading the cost of shared infrastructure over the whole population, it’s called taxes. Alongside sustainability initiatives (e.g. good public transport and cycling systems, getting trucks off the road, reinstating rail, relocalising economies etc), we can reduce road use and spread the cost more equitably.

      • Ad 10.2.1

        Exactly. Helpfully I don’t work at the Ministry of Transport. So I don’t have to think like that.

        Tax – currently by fully hypothecated tax on fuel – is the most democratic way of spreading the costs of infrastructure.

        The government is making the proposal that this is no longer enough to pay for the infrastructure needed for Auckland. But they have wrongfooted themselves in the debate by veering off into debating the mechanism far too soon.

        • srylands 10.2.1.1

          “Tax – currently by fully hypothecated tax on fuel – is the most democratic way of spreading the costs of infrastructure. ”
          __________

          The test is not whether the system is ‘democratic’. The yardstick should be efficiency.

          • Ad 10.2.1.1.1

            No.

            The yardstick of whether the state can pull money out of my bank account is not going to be efficiency.

            It’s a whole bunch more complex than that. Tax is the use of force upon my property for a public good. They need to fully justify any change to that.

          • mac1 10.2.1.1.2

            ‘Efficiency’ over ‘democracy’? That can take you into some pretty dark places, if you have any sense or knowledge of history, srylands…………..

            Churchill once opined that democracy is not efficient but it sure beat whatever was in second place.

            While I’m here, it could be in some conspiratorial way that the government is wanting to deal with cell-phone usage whilst driving. If a person is mobile, and using a cell-phone, GPS coverage would be a very efficient way of dealing with it. Wouldn’t even need a policeman on the spot- just the data, and a letter in the post requiring you to prove it wasn’t you in the car, and wasn’t you driving. Very efficient. Like speeding tickets in the mail.

          • Draco T Bastard 10.2.1.1.3

            Tax is the most efficient as well.

          • Macro 10.2.1.1.4

            I think you should pay for the road up to your place, and the road to your work place and the road to the shopping centre you use – and as I don’t use those roads – I don’t have to pay. That sounds fair.

    • b waghorn 10.3

      The same way diesel s pay ,rucs . it would be acceptable in my view to have a system were you can either buy your own rucs on line or at the post shop, or have a GPS system installed but forced installation of GPS is a no go.

      • Ad 10.3.1

        There’s that rights crux again: with the petrol tax you don’t give up your entire freedom to privacy. With GPS you do.

        I’m sure the Minister will explain how he will overcome these difficulties. It’s just he’s bought himself an entirely unnecessary fight.

      • BM 10.3.2

        Why?

        If you’re worried about get pinged for speeding, out source the fee collection to a third party with the scope only set for fee collection on distance traveled.

        • b waghorn 10.3.2.1

          Speeding is small potatoes , its having people like Nicki Hagars travel details a computer click away from someone like collins is where it becomes dangerous.

          • weka 10.3.2.1.1

            Oe beneficiaries. Which won’t hold up in court (there’s no way to prove who was driving the car), but WINZ and the MSD and the current Minister can run rough shod over their clients anyway.

          • BM 10.3.2.1.2

            So what do you reckon Collins would do?, order a drone strike?

            • b waghorn 10.3.2.1.2.1

              Order a whale strike would be more in her reach, the same way key did in the lead up to last three election s.
              Mainly I used that scenario two point out the slippery slope a country is on once its forcibly collecting data on it citizens travel movement.

            • framu 10.3.2.1.2.2

              im sure she would like the option

      • weka 10.3.3

        What about shared cars b? Or cars that are resold? There are plenty of other options for funding roading infrastructure, so we don’t need to support the government’s desire to use tracking tech (which will get used for other things).

        • b waghorn 10.3.3.1

          Your first to points are up to the people involved to settle between themselves.
          User pays is the only fair way for transport, and as I said as long as there is an option not to be tracked I’m fine with it.

          • weka 10.3.3.1.1

            But there is tracking under your proposal. People who are privileged will find ways around that, those with less resource or more vulnerable won’t. That’s not a fair society.

            Why is user pays the only fair way for transport but not other things like libraries or health?

            • b waghorn 10.3.3.1.1.1

              If roads were taxed out of income the person who walks everywhere and the pensioner that gets to the shop once a week would be paying the same % as me who does at least 15000 unnecessary kms a year.
              Libraries are a nice to have first world luxury I guess.
              And I think health should be funded from an acc type set up , as from my experience its less financially stress full to get hurt than it is to get sick.

              • weka

                Roads are shared infrastructure. They are used to transport food, people to work, people to hospitals, fire engines etc. They need to exist irrespective of whether you and I ever use them personally (although the numbers of people who would never use a road would be very small).

                In terms of wear on the road by excessive use, there are other ways to address that.

                Not sure what you mean by ACC/health. How would that work for people without a job?

                • b waghorn

                  An unemployed person would be covered by acc in accident .
                  I’m thinking fund it through levies like acc is funded ie any and all sugar taxes smoking and alcohol taxes . maybe a direct takes from income and ring fence it the same way acc does. Must stop now way off topic sorry Ad

                  • weka

                    ACC pays out income to people who have jobs, not people who don’t. It will cover some costs of treatment and rehab but not all. It’s not a very good example. Technically Health is meant to be accessible to all people. I’m curious why you think it should be funded by consumer taxes instead of via general taxes in order to make it fair. Plenty of people drink alcohol but don’t have health problems as a result, why should they be paying for that? Direct take from income is what we have now isn’t it?

                    I think given how much user pays is part of the roading conversation it’s relevant. Because if we are saying that roading should be user pays, why not everything else. To my mind it’s not a fair way to do it, it’s actually increases unfairness.

                    • b waghorn

                      “Plenty of people drink alcohol but don’t have health problems as a result”
                      Plenty of people go there entire working career and drive cars without it injuring them yet they pay acc.
                      Acc seems to be awash with money so it looks like successful system , unless we come up with a way of funding health properly , the privatization by neglect that national is causing will only get worse., by that I mean the the people that pay for their on procedures because they are sick of the pain of waiting for public treatment.

                    • weka

                      We could find it with taxes. We don’t fully fund now because of ideology. Plus some issues around increase in costs due to mismanagement elsewhere egg running a poverty economy increases need for healthcare.

          • BM 10.3.3.1.2

            You can be tracked using number plate OCR technology already.

            I watched an interesting show made in the UK where people went on the run from the authorities where the goal was to see how long they could go without being captured.

            In the UK there’s cameras at all major bridges and over passes that scans all number plates, if you flag a number plate and it gets recognized by one of the cameras it creates an alert which is sent to whoever so within a very short time the police/secret service can swoop down and either arrest or follow any person they want.

            • b waghorn 10.3.3.1.2.1

              OK so you’ve got a proper nutter from white is right party ,who has a bent cop on the payroll in the traffic , and he wants to do a lefty equal rights campaigner some harm , there is no way of completely guaranteeing that that information can’t be gathered and used .

              Oh but nothing to fear nothing to hide a!

              • Draco T Bastard

                there is no way of completely guaranteeing that that information can’t be gathered and used .

                No there isn’t but that’s not the way you should be looking at these things.

                You need to ask if the advantages of having such a system in place, with appropriate safeguards, outweighs the risk.

                No one on here has actually asked that question. They’ve just gone full kneejerk Waaaah, the government’s going to be watching meeeeee probably while using their cellphone which is connected to their gmail account and using ad supported apps.

                • b waghorn

                  When decisions like this are made you have to be looking at worst case scenarios, to not do it is silly. What if in fifteen years time we get a pm and police minister that make key and collins look like good up standing citizens.
                  No one is forcing me to use a pH or go online ,

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    When decisions like this are made you have to be looking at worst case scenarios, to not do it is silly.

                    Yes you do.

                    What if in fifteen years time we get a pm and police minister that make key and collins look like good up standing citizens.

                    And that’s why you have laws that they can’t bypass. Our parliament really is too powerful as it is and we need to change that.

                    And even then you missed the most important point: The corporations presently own the government.

                    No one is forcing me to use a pH or go online ,

                    And you can choose not to own a car.

                    • b waghorn

                      I could but I don’t want to get a horse and cart . and even if there was public transport out here I doubt they d be keen on me and three dogs going to the trials in whanagmomona on their bus.

          • Draco T Bastard 10.3.3.1.3

            User pays is the only fair way for transport…

            And it’s also how you end up with inefficient and uneconomic transport options such as personal cars.

    • Draco T Bastard 10.4

      You missed the bit about number plate recognition?

      Here’s a better question for you though: How are we going to pay for roads when no one has a car?

      That will actually happen because we can’t actually afford personal cars. Never have been able to really but the delusional economic system we have made it appear that we could.

  11. Observer Toke 11

    .
    To: Jenny Kirk

    . I agree with you that Petrol Tax is an immediate way of reducing traffic congestion and at the same time enables funding of lower cost Public Transport.

    If a weighty extra levy per litre were added to the current cost of petrol and diesel, many drivers would decide that train and bus services are not all that bad. Provided the Bus and Train offer low cost ticketing.

    The extra levy on Petrol / Diesel would not apply south or north of the boundaries of the Super City.

    GPS tracking is just another method of treating us like cattle. It is bad enough that John Key and Bronagh can look at any detail about any of us at any time they wish.

    • Draco T Bastard 11.1

      It is bad enough that John Key and Bronagh can look at any detail about any of us at any time they wish.

      I think you’ll find that it’s highly illegal for them to do so and probably very hard for them to do so as well.

  12. srylands 12

    If you want to price roads efficiently, there is no alternative to variable time pricing. It does not need to be GPS based either. Use radio frequency identification tags. Deal with the privacy issues through strict laws.

    Apart from providing regulation, Government should be out of roads. They should all be run by private companies who charge using whatever method works for them. And I can guarantee that won’t be via petrol levies. So if the charging is not location based what is your solution?

    • weka 12.1

      Crikey, someone actually directly invoking TINA.

    • Ad 12.2

      That’s a pretty brutal way of de-carbonizing the transport system.
      Very Cuban of you Srylands!

    • vto 12.3

      “They should all be run by private companies who charge using whatever method works for them.”

      No

      They should all be run by private individuals (every single private individual together) who cannot sell their interest and don’t charge anything.

    • Muttonbird 12.4

      Mobility of labour and goods would grind to a halt overnight.

      • Draco T Bastard 12.4.1

        Pretty much and then the private operators would be demanding huge sums from the government because they’re not making enough profit.

    • Draco T Bastard 12.5

      They should all be run by private companies who charge using whatever method works for them.

      You can’t get competition in roads which means that private companies need to be kept well away from them.

    • framu 12.6

      ” They should all be run by private companies who charge using whatever method works for them.”

      how do you, as a consumer, switch suppliers?

    • lprent 12.7

      RF tags carry just the same problems as GPS. So easy to spoof that they are pretty pointless.

      They also require a far greater infrastructure along the roadways than reading GPS tracks off a chip.

      But to make the GPS checkable, you’d need to install an alternate external system to provide a feedback check. So far I’m not hearing anything about that.

  13. Observer Toke 13

    . To BM

    Would strategic cameras record the number plate of electric cars each time they motored in the Super City, and be billed accordingly.?

    • Ad 13.1

      That’s what happens on the motorway north from Auckland already.
      And you have a choice to use the untolled route if you want to.

    • BM 13.2

      Why would you need cameras?

      That’s what GPS is for.

      • Ad 13.2.1

        Because one is a choice you make, for a very specific part of your journey, and the other is no choice at all, as soon as you leave your driveway.

        • BM 13.2.1.1

          So you only get billed on selected roads? or is it all transit roads ?

          The current fuel tax isn’t just about building new roads it’s also about upkeep and repair of existing roads.

          To factor that into the equation we’re going to have to install 1000’s of cameras all over NZ to capture every off ramp and exit, other wise how else do you calculate kms traveled?

          Be a lot easier using GPS, all self drive vehicles will come with them and most new cars already come with built in GPS.

          GPS really is the only option.

          • weka 13.2.1.1.1

            This is an Auckland problem, why would we need cameras all over NZ?

            You seem to be forgetting that we need to be reducing personal car use. How will we afford road upkeep if funding is tied to individual use?

            You are also ignoring the data sharing/privacy issues. The govt already can’t be trusted with that.

            • Colonial Viper 13.2.1.1.1.1

              IIRC Dunedin already has a number of number plate recognition cameras on major roads. Your vehicle movements through those roads are stored.

              • weka

                I was meaning the how to pay for roading issue, which seemed to be BM’s argument.

                • Colonial Viper

                  The other thing is that we need to be pulling money out of roads.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    Really? And how are ambulances, fire and other emergency crews going to get around? Walk?

                    • there are prototype flying vehicle technologies that could work right NOW – there is no good reason to use the roads when the sky is available

            • BM 13.2.1.1.1.2

              I’m not interested in reducing personal car use.
              You can take the bus, I’ll go by car.

              • weka

                I don’t care if you are interested or not. We’re heading into a post-carbon world, we won’t have a choice. Besides, what you want personally misses the fact that user pays needs a certain number of people to work, otherwise you have a small number of people paying a huge amount each.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Besides, what you want personally misses the fact that user pays needs a certain number of people to work, otherwise you have a small number of people paying a huge amount each.

                  Yep and that’s one of the reasons why capitalism and user pays doesn’t work. It costs far more individually which inevitably increases poverty and the ongoing degradation of the infrastructure that society needs to operate efficiently. The end result is the end of civilisation.

              • Draco T Bastard

                I’m not interested in reducing personal car use.

                Shorty, there won’t be a choice. It’ll be either walking or taking public transport.

      • One Two 13.2.2

        The GPS tracking fantasy is not even your own

        It is the fantasy of those who control the politicians you shrill on behalf of through repeated agitation and asinine commentary, here

        Boring, unimaginative and discarded, is how you will exit this life

        • Ad 13.2.2.1

          Tone it down.
          No personal abuse here thankyou.

          • One Two 13.2.2.1.1

            There was no personal abuse. You have incorrectly interpreted my comment

            • Colonial Viper 13.2.2.1.1.1

              Interesting how you wish people an ignorant wasted death and don’t regard it as personal abuse.

              You really are a bit of a sick puppy, aren’t you.

              • One Two

                No!

                That is your interpretation, which is also incorrect

                Each of us can choose how we participate in this life and the way we conduct ourselves

                My observation is that BM is here to agitate and shrill on behalf of…whomever

                In my opinion it is a boring and unimaginative choice that will be discarded when no longer of useful service

                Observations

  14. dukeofurl 14

    Its likely a full ‘tracking by satellite’ is unworkable. Especially in NZ. For those individuals and companies that have GPS tracking detectors in their car use a Sim card to transfer the data to a central database which is then displayed on a map by some sort of app for the end user.

    The costs to set up that system will be stupendous, and a call centre to handle queries and faults – the GPS frequency was chosen as a ‘window’ to avoid effects from weather- but establishing an initial tracking signal can be a problem.

    This device would have to be installed in all cars /trucks. How would you ensure it was not tampered with or the power disconnected ?
    A lot of people wouldnt want one installed at all including those that come to Auckland only occasionaly or even just pass through.
    How do you find those vehicles that arent ‘transmitting’ – its the classic needle in a haystack.

    I can imagine some sort of ‘masking tape’ that interferes with the signal would soon become available for those forced to install a system.

    • BM 14.1

      Having had a bit to do with the GPS tracking, you’d be quite surprised how cheap it is to have a unit installed.

      If power is disconnected there’s a battery back up that lasts for a couple of days and a alert is sent to who ever is monitoring the unit.

      Some units even have two power supplies and a battery backup.

      Another reason for the battery is if you lose GPS coverage data can then be saved and then sent once coverage is found.

      • Draco T Bastard 14.1.1

        If power is disconnected there’s a battery back up that lasts for a couple of days and a alert is sent to who ever is monitoring the unit.

        A standard CR2032 battery would probably be able to keep a modern multi-satellite GPS going for years. It wouldn’t be able to transmit anything but the data and the fact that it hadn’t been transmitting would be available at the next WOF. Cue large bill for the owner and a police investigation into criminal activities.

      • lprent 14.1.2

        Having worked on GPS systems for years at a hardware and code level, you’d be surprised at how easy it is for me to make them read whatever I want them to read.

        This has to be one of the more stupid ideas I have heard.

        Also a market opportunity for someone..

        • Gangnam Style 14.1.2.1

          It’s a bit of marketing for Dominos, they advertise their drivers can be tracked by GPS so you can watch them on the computer coming to your house.

  15. Observer Toke 15

    .

    The Number Plate is visible. Odometers and GPS, tags and flags are not as straight forward as the stable good old Number Plate.

    • Colonial Viper 15.1

      Yep. And optical character recognition technology for this application is basically 100% accurate these days.

      I mean FFS Singapore sorted out a system for identifying and charging vehicles on specific roads at specific times 25 years ago.

  16. mpledger 16

    GPS won’t work – someone just needs to put an obstruction in the way for the signals not to work e.g. GPS can’t see through metal roofs.

    • Colonial Viper 16.1

      ? And all those GPS map systems in cars…?

      • lprent 16.1.1

        Notice where they are mounted. At windows. Typically the antenna is mounted under the plastic (largely transparent to RF) on the top of the dashboard or in some cases on an external antenna.

  17. Richardrawshark 17

    Blatant rip off, again.

    Tax for roading, now usage charges on top of ruc, and acc levies. petrol tax on and fkn on.

    How much time does it take to do all this shit as opposed to just allocating it at one point , personal tax.

    This is why I get pissed with governments, the continual added taxes which are complicated instead of altering the basic tax rate or adjusting allocations based on enessesity because they are to bloody scared of losing votes.

    everyone crys about fairness, pay one tax, no moans, taxing go’s to ministry of transport and is divided up by regional population, you get your budget deal with it.

    As for spying on our movements, only iof the data went to the states where processors might be able to track everyones rego, correlate that to owner and store all data for them. Orwellian is scare mongering at the level it was portrayed.

    It would require a lot of storage space and fast processing to keep a real time track of the information your worried about.

    • I Feel Love 18.1

      Heres the proper link http://www.odt.co.nz/news/politics/385591/crown-limos-caught-speeding

      “Mr Spence, who is in charge of the Government’s VIP car fleet, said there have been discussions with the GPS provider who’ve assured them that some of the extremely high speeds recorded are to do with the actual GPS collection system.

      “I would say that there is obviously some data which is very incorrect. You’ll see there are references of speeds of 200 in 100km areas. That’s obviously incorrect.””

      • BM 18.1.1

        “I would say that there is obviously some data which is very incorrect. You’ll see there are references of speeds of 200 in 100km areas. That’s obviously incorrect.””

        No it’s not.

        • I Feel Love 18.1.1.1

          I agree with you BM, I just thought it was ironic a GOVT guy saying it didn’t work, obviously arse covering!

          • BM 18.1.1.1.1

            Yeah, ridiculous attempt at arse covering.

            GPS is more accurate than the speedo on your car.

        • Draco T Bastard 18.1.1.2

          Exactly what I was thinking. Modern cars are quite capable of 200km/h and doing it comfortably.

  18. BM 19

    On the topic of GPS tracking and privacy concerns.

    The way in car tracking works is that every minute/couple of minutes(not sure of the exact timing) a cellular call is made from the in-car unit and sent to a server where the information is collected and then the monitoring app is updated.

    That allows employers to real time track their employees and see where they are on the map at any given time.
    You can actually see the vehicle moving along the road on the map, because of this, there is a monthly fee where x amount of dollars is used to pay for the cellular calls

    For tracking of distance for road tax there’s absolutely no need to have the data transferred back to the server every minute or so, you could have it set, so at the end of the day all collected data is sent to a server for processing.

    If the data collection is set up for end of day collection, there is no privacy concerns as there’s no contact with the server at all while driving. therefore no ability to track a vehicle in real time.

    • I Feel Love 19.1

      Yes there is a lot of money to be made, a lot of ticket clipping, on selling data to interested parties, more troughing for the middle man, happy days!

      • BM 19.1.1

        Depends what sort of data is sent back.

        GPS tracking on work vehicles sends back data like strong g-force events, over speeding, idling as well as where you are, if it’s got integration with the vehicles can bus, fuel economy and other vehicle information.

        The only information I can see getting sent back for road tax collection would be the distance you’ve done for the day.

        Depending how the system gets set up, you would probably have different tariffs depending on what road you drove on, so the data could be broken down into what distance you went on each type of road, that way you can be billed accurately.

        I couldn’t see why any other data needs to be collected.

        • I Feel Love 19.1.1.1

          “I couldn’t see why any other data needs to be collected.” Doesn’t matter, collecting ‘data’ is big business, whatever they use it for, to think it won’t be collected is naive.

        • Draco T Bastard 19.1.1.2

          The only information I can see getting sent back for road tax collection would be the distance you’ve done for the day.

          They’re talking about charging different amounts for different roads at different times of the day.

          Quite specifically, they are not talking about distance travelled.

          • BM 19.1.1.2.1

            Installing a GPS system seems a bit over to top if all the government wants to do is implement a congestion tax?

        • dukeofurl 19.1.1.3

          GPS doesnt know anything. Its a timing signal only.
          The GPS car navigation systems are not connected to engine management systems, so cant collect all the information you assume.
          And as the data is transferred by Sim card , I cant see it doing real time engine parameters.
          Some insurance companies had an app which runs on a smart phone ( which can see g forces etc) they would use that to see driver habits, GPS locations ect

    • weka 19.2

      “If the data collection is set up for end of day collection, there is no privacy concerns as there’s no contact with the server at all while driving. therefore no ability to track a vehicle in real time.”

      What data would be collected at the end of the day?

      • BM 19.2.1

        This is just speculation on my part.

        http://thestandard.org.nz/gps/#comment-1192890

      • Colonial Viper 19.2.2

        To BM

        “If the data collection is set up for end of day collection, there is no privacy concerns as there’s no contact with the server at all while driving. therefore no ability to track a vehicle in real time.”

        This is fucking stupid.

        Are you serious?

        So your ex hiding a webcam in your bedroom to capture you having sex with your new partner, doesn’t cause you any privacy concerns because your ex doesn’t stream the video on YouTube in real time but only uploads it the day after?

        Fuck man, have you lost your mind? You’re a smart guy, why don’t you just think for a second before you type this lazy shit out.

        • BM 19.2.2.1

          Of course you could have every bit of data sent to a server so you could be done for speeding /dangerous driving or so secret squirrel can keep tabs on where you’ve been or what you’ve been up to.

          Back in the real world though, no voter would agree to that and any government who tried to implement that would be thrown out on their ear.

          You lefties are always so over the top with the paranoia.

          • Colonial Viper 19.2.2.1.1

            Grow up. Every digital communication you send in NZ is already copied and securely stored on servers accessible by any of the intelligence services of the FVEY nations.

            And the Deep State doesn’t give a shit if some temporary politicians lose their elected position, it itself continues on just fine.

            • BM 19.2.2.1.1.1

              When does Jason Bourne turn up?

              • Ad

                I’m here. 😉

              • Colonial Viper

                Dude, why don’t you get on youtube and start watching some presentations by Bill Binnie, Jacob Appelbaum, Glenn Greenwald or Laura Poitras on the implications of the Snowden revelations are, before you embarass yourself.

    • Kiwiri 19.3

      “If the data collection is set up for end of day collection, there is no privacy concerns as there’s no contact with the server at all while driving. therefore no ability to track a vehicle in real time.”

      Satire, parody or idiocy?
      Spoilt for choices.

      • Colonial Viper 19.3.1

        I have to shakes my head in dismay

        • Kiwiri 19.3.1.1

          Before any such ideas are implemented widely, they should first be trialled in Crown limousines and all vehicles used by Cabinet Ministers, whether private/public vehicles and at all times during the day.

          As well, all surveillance policies should first include and be extended to all internet and communication technologies used by Cabinet Ministers, their family members, staff and then incrementally be extended to their network of friends, business partners and neighbours. These would cover their diaries, telephones and any internet devices.

          All data involved will be released as open source, without censorship, and freely available publicly for data-mining, analysis and reporting. Importantly, data will be automatically available right after a 24-hour period of collection.

          “If the data collection is set up for end of day collection, there is no privacy concerns as there’s no contact with the server at all while [Cabinet ministers are communicating]. therefore no ability to track [their communications, machinations and corruption] in real time.”

  19. joe90 20

    The state does not need to know where I am.

    The state probably doesn’t know where you are, yet, but the state is certainly able to find out where you’ve been.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_data_recorder

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3726457/Car-black-box-data-helps-convict-driver-after-crash

    • weka 20.1

      How many vehicles in NZ have that?

      • Colonial Viper 20.1.1

        Loads of newer cars. Much of the data is used for maintenance and diagnostics. Or for stability/traction control.

        But if you go roaring down a back road at 160km/h at 2AM in the morning, its quite likely that your mid sized executive car (Mondeo, Camry, Accord etc) will have a record of you doing that in its memory. Cars with remote connectivity can download that information back to the service centre on a regular basis.

      • joe90 20.1.2

        From the Stuff link above –

        All vehicles with airbags were likely to collect the data, but in some models the data could not be retrieved. The technology would become more common in New Zealand.

        “When you look at the American experience. They started out with limited access, now the data is everywhere,” he said.

        The data can now be read in Australia.

        If a car has an SDM unit, it must be in working order before a warrant of fitness can be issued.

        • weka 20.1.2.1

          So how does the govt access that?

          • joe90 20.1.2.1.1

            As with any other data I assume, through the courts.

            edit: CV makes the point above about connectivity so I guess the state could access data via court ordered surveillance.

            • Ad 20.1.2.1.1.1

              I don’t actually mind that as much if it’s after the fact; a Coroner or a crash investigator should be ale to attribute cause. After the fact.

              • Draco T Bastard

                You don’t realise that you’ve just contradicted yourself do you?

                Even ‘real time’ GPS monitoring of your car’s location would be done ‘after the fact’. Under normal conditions, nobody would ever see that data as the billing of the network charges would be done entirely by computer.

                But it may be accessed afterwards if there was a crime in the area. Of course it should only be accessed by court order.

                And, yes, I did notice that people were concerned with being caught speeding.

                • Ad

                  I mind slightly less about loss of privacy if I’m dead.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    As I point out, there’s no loss of privacy.

                    • Ad

                      Yes I’ll show you the Act when I have a moment.

                    • Ad

                      Here you go; the New Zealand Privacy Act. This Act focuses entirely on the rights of the person to be protected from the state taking and using your personal information. This will help you with the actual rights New Zealanders have in this field.

                      http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0028/latest/DLM297441.html

                      In Part 2 of the Act the Information Privacy Principles are spelled out.

                      A few relevant ones for this discussion are:
                      Principle 4: Manner of Collection of Personal Information
                      Personal information must not be collected in an unlawful, unfair or intrusive manner

                      Principle 5: Storage and Security of Personal Information
                      The agency must ensure that the information is protected against loss, misuse, or unauthorized disclosure.

                      Principle 9: Agency Not To Keep Personal Information For Longer Than Is Necessary
                      The agency must not keep the information for any longer than it is needed for the purpose for which it is collected.

                      Principle 10: Limits On Use Of Personal Information
                      Information collected for one purpose must not be used for any other purpose

                      Principle 11: Limits on Disclosure of Personal Information
                      The information must not be disclosed, except in certain situations.

                      Principle 12: Unique Identifiers
                      An agency must not assign a unique identifier to an individual unless doing so is necessary for the agency to carry out its functions efficiently.

                      And after that, the purposes and powers of the Privacy Commissioner.

                      So, Draco, work yourself through that before blithely consigning everyone to the state’s collection tools with a simple “there is no loss of privacy”. I’m sure the Supreme Court would welcome your expertise in this field.

                      The state does not have the right to presume it can harvest my personal information, including my travel information within New Zealand.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Principle 4: Manner of Collection of Personal Information
                      Personal information must not be collected in an unlawful, unfair or intrusive manner

                      Is the position of your car in a public space actually personal information?

                      IMO, it isn’t.

                    • Ad

                      Sorry I’ve run out of reply buttons.

                      The question about whether your travel information is private when one travels on a public road is kind of interesting in a philosophical sense. But not relevant to GPS.

                      What is in question is not when personal information becomes public. Better to think of a whole spectrum from white to black to grey.

                      What is in question is whether a state agency can and should collect that information or not. That’s where the Privacy Act provisions come in to force.

                      What is in question second is whether GPS is an appropriate instrument to collect that information. GPS doesn’t care whether you are on a public road, on a mountain, in a national park, or in your driveway. The distinction between public and private realms is obliterated.

                      GPS tracks you from your driveway to the road to a park to a beach to the destination driveway, making no distinction between public and private at all. That’s far more invasive than the HOP card trackers. Yes, that’s a major loss of privacy.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      The question about whether your travel information is private when one travels on a public road is kind of interesting in a philosophical sense.

                      That’s just it. We’re not actually talking about you personal travel information. We’re talking about data that is, in a general sense, publicly known.

                      What is in question is whether a state agency can and should collect that information or not. That’s where the Privacy Act provisions come in to force.

                      The first question is certainly one that needs to be asked and we need to ask it in respect to many things: Road design, road usage, resource use and probably a few more that I can’t think of at the moment. In other words, it’s a question that needs to be asked in relation to the use of our scarce resources.

                      But the first question that needs to be asked is if it’s private or public data. If it’s the latter then the Privacy Act doesn’t apply. And then there’s the fact that your use of a vehicle does affect everyone else which means that everyone else has an interest in the use of your car.

                      What is in question second is whether GPS is an appropriate instrument to collect that information. GPS doesn’t care whether you are on a public road, on a mountain, in a national park, or in your driveway. The distinction between public and private realms is obliterated.

                      The public road, the mountain and national park are all public spaces. Your driveway is so small as to be negligible and everybody already knows where you live – it’s on the electoral roll.

                      GPS tracks you from your driveway to the road to a park to a beach to the destination driveway, making no distinction between public and private at all. That’s far more invasive than the HOP card trackers. Yes, that’s a major loss of privacy.

                      Is it though? The data is held but is never looked at unless doing so helps in the solving of a crime. Can you really say that, under those conditions, there is a loss of privacy? Because I can’t.

                      The risk is that someone may use that information for malicious ends. That risk can be mitigated through good process and laws making the total risk minimal. Then question that then needs to be asked is if the benefits of that data collection are worth the risk and that is the question has been pretty much ignored in this entire thread.

                      EDIT:
                      Think of how police track suspect vehicles now. They put out a description and, if they’ve got it, the number plate. People then ring in if they see a vehicle matching that description.

                      This GPS tracking would, essentially, be the same thing just more accurate and faster.

                    • Ad

                      I’m not sure how anyone would know where I was going in my car, unless I assented to tell them. My route is made public to the state only in the aggregate of traffic patterning. Just as the SIS is only able to read aggregate metadata patterns, unless there is a specific warrant that they have to put a case to a judge for. That’s the same for the Police when they seek warrants to track vehicles.

                      Following your logic means that as soon as we are operating in any public space, I have given an implicit assent to the state to harvest my data. That is an extraordinary and chilling extension of power that I have not heard argued in a court here.

                      The Privacy Act makes no distinction about whether the information is collected in a public or private space.

                      GPS too respects no boundaries.

                      Minister Bridges will need to make some amazing arguments about the extent of implied permission from citizens to the state to harvest data in all public areas.

            • weka 20.1.2.1.1.2

              Joe, I thought your original comment was saying that the govt can already access data. That a coroner or police can access some data from some cars after an accident is a really different thing.

              • joe90

                I said probably doesn’t know where you are, yet and find out where you’ve been so I’ve no idea why you would think I said otherwise.

                And, as CV notes, modern cars have connectivity so IMO it’s not a particularly long bow to draw to say at some point in the near future the state will be able to use that capacity to track individual vehicles.

                • weka

                  The state has very limited ability to know where people have been, they have to have a crash first serious enough to warrant investigation. Your post did seem misleading in the context of the thread.

                  I don’t see the near future ability of the govt getting access to car service company data.

                  • joe90

                    I don’t see the near future ability of the govt getting access to car service company data.

                    I do.

                    Under their myriad of warrantless powers to stop and search police can and do seize and conduct forensic analysis of electronic devices and I’ve no doubt should a vehicle have the ability to record it’s location they could and would do the same.

                    • weka

                      Sure, but that’s a different thing than the govt having automatic access all the time, which is what Ad’s post was about.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      @weka

                      The government wouldn’t have automatic access all the time. Or, at least, shouldn’t do.

  20. Kiwiri 21

    No doubt that whatever proposals that will firm up will eventually help make more money for some of the political donors supporting the current regime.

    (No need for sarc tag)

  21. TopHat 22

    WTF are we all whining about? This should single handedly wipe out how much greenhouse gas emission? I for one will never own a car again.

    • Ad 22.1

      You are about .05 of New Zealand.
      Congrats if you feel you have special virtue.
      Don’t forget, the Police and intelligence teams track all of HOP.

  22. lprent 23

    What does amuse me is the idea that it’d be a perfect solution or anything close to it.

    As someone who has spent the last six years working on GPS hardware and software for projects that use GPS, what I see is a great opportunity for GPS spoofers. After all we are talking about receiving very weak radio signals from outer space with an open protocol and probably with no NZ specific proprietary signals embedded.

    Well it is hard enough to keep a GPS fix as it is in NZ. We’re not Singapore near to the equator. It is hard enough to get a good fix as it is.

    With a little ingenuity (and probably some No8 fencing wire to satisfy tradition), you’ll find that it is pretty easy to block or degrade the reception of a GPS signal.

    You could simply put in a jammer. Something on the same band really close at low power would do it.

    Or you could get more sophisticated and generate your own Sats on a GPS frequencies to be the best signals. Drive to work in the middle of the Waitemata harbour!

    These are non-intrusive. Once you start looking at adapting the hardware….

    Basically what I can’t see from this technically illiterate government is any feedback way to prevent this from happening. They are providing a strong incentive at $0.4 per kilometre to do all of these things and many more.

    The most effective way to provide a disincentive to drive is the simplest. Tax fuel on a regional basis and put that into transport costs – especially public transport. But National proved too cowardly to do that.

    • Draco T Bastard 23.1

      The most effective way to provide a disincentive to drive is the simplest.

      National are trying to encourage people to still drive. That’s why they cut the fuel tax in the first place and now they’re looking to use the ‘user pays’ route to put the tax in place now that their original decision has been proven to be as stupid as those in favour of the tax said it would be 8 years ago.

      • lprent 23.1.1

        National are pretty good at demonstrating their short term stupid thinking. Simon Bridges appears to be a leading exponent of it.

        I suspect that this idea is one of those kite flying exercises that he does for short term benefit and no real expectation of ever doing it. Has anyone seen more bridges being contemplated in Northland after the by-election. I suspect that Bridges will never go there again. After all they voted for Winston Peters…

        :0

        • Ad 23.1.1.1

          Feels like an MoT brain explosion to be killed either by public outrage or a little Cabinet chat.

    • Lanthanide 23.2

      It’s pretty obvious that the GPS “solution” is a non-starter.

      The only way it’d even have a chance of working is if every car came factory-fitted with one and it was near-impossible to tamper with. But even then, putting in things to block or spoof the signal is still quite possible. The other problem is how you even collect the data from all the cars anyway – seems like an ideal way to overload the cell towers if it’s a live collection system, and if it’s an end-of-day or night-time collection system, then you’ve still got to coordinate all the cars to upload at different times to avoid overloading.

      The obvious solution to this problem is exactly what London implemented in 2003 – the congestion charge which is based on cameras taking photos of car number plates as they enter certain streets in the city, and the owner of the car gets automatically billed for the charge for that day. It’s not as fine-grained as what the government wants with different peak rate and shoulder rates, though. They already use this style of system on the Auckland Northern Gateway.

      The GPS thing is a pipe dream that will never eventuate because the technical challenges are too big, and of course there’s the massive privacy concerns as well.

  23. joe90 24

    If you were a government, what would you do with a GPS tracker on every single vehicle in New Zealand?

    That seems to be what Minister Bridges is heading towards with his view of tolling.

    Looking through a list of toll collection systems and no mention of GPS with almost all using a RFID tag and go/remote read.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electronic_toll_collection_systems

  24. Brett Cooper 25

    I like it, users pays and this would be the fairest system. It could catch bad drivers and serial speeders and reduce the insurance arguments if there was a black box gps. Cars kill people and should be monitored instance of a bad driver gets behind the wheel. This could save lives.

    • Ad 25.1

      Take a moment to think about who it would punish the most:

      – Those who drive the furthest
      – Those who can least afford to travel (ie the poor)
      – Those for whom there is no public transport alternative (ie brown and poor by great disproportion, and those not living in cities)
      – Those who are previously criminalized (ie brown and poor by great disproportion)
      – Those who have visually dodgy cars. (ie the poor)

      In other words, this user pays system targets poor people.

  25. BlueSky 26

    I want access to all the data the government or any company has on me before they can collect/store it.

    I want the ability to easily challenge that data and have that information removed in the case of companies.

    The government and companies should also provide information on how they came by the data they have. (With exceptions around national security (rarely) and criminality (more common)) Businesses have no reasons to not provide this.

    We need a Digital Rights Act.

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    This year's General Assembly of the European Geosciences Union (EGU) will take place as a fully hybrid conference in both Vienna and online from April 15 to 19. I decided to join the event virtually this year for the full week and I've already picked several sessions I plan to ...
    2 days ago
  • But here's my point about the large irony in what Luxon is saying
    Grim old week in the media business, eh? And it’s only Wednesday, to rework an old upbeat line of poor old Neil Roberts.One of the larger dark ironies of it all has been the line the Prime Minister is serving up to anyone asking him about the sorry state of ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    3 days ago
  • Govt gives farmers something to talk about (regarding environmental issues) at those woolshed meetin...
    Buzz from the Beehive Hard on the heels of three rurally oriented ministers launching the first of their woolshed meetings, the government brought good news to farmers on the environmental front. First, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced an additional $18 million is being committed to reduce agricultural emissions. Not all ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    3 days ago
  • Climate change violates human rights
    That's the ruling of the European Court of Human Rights today: Weak government climate policies violate fundamental human rights, the European court of human rights has ruled. In a landmark decision on one of three major climate cases, the first such rulings by an international court, the ECHR raised ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Which govt departments have grown the most?
    David Farrar writes –  There has been a 34% increase over six years in the size of the public service, in terms of EFTS. But not all agencies have grown by the same proportion. Here are the 10 with the largest relative increases between 2017 and ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    3 days ago
  • What’s to blame for the public’s plummeting trust in the media?
    Bryce Edwards writes  –  The media is in crisis, as New Zealand audiences flee from traditional sources of news and information. The latest survey results on the public’s attitude to the media shows plummeting trust. And New Zealand now leads the world in terms of those who want ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    3 days ago
  • Something Important: The Curious Death of the School Strike 4 Climate Movement.
    The Hope That Failed: The Christchurch Mosque Massacres, Covid-19, deep political disillusionment, and the jealous cruelty of the intersectionists: all had a part to play in causing School Strike 4 Climate’s bright bubble of hope and passion to burst. But, while it floated above us, it was something that mattered. Something ...
    3 days ago
  • Cow Farts and Cancer Sticks.
    What do you do if you’re a new government minister and the science is in. All of the evidence and facts are clear, but they’re not to your liking? They’re inconsistent with your policy positions and/or your spending priorities.Well, first off you could just stand back and watch as the ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    3 days ago
  • Member’s Day
    Today is a Member's day. First up is James Shaw's New Zealand Bill of Rights (Right to Sustainable Environment) Amendment Bill, which does exactly what it says on the label. Despite solid backing in international law and from lawyers and NGOs, National will likely vote it down out of pure ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Bernard's Top 10 'pick 'n' mix' at 10:10 am on Wednesday, April 10
    Luxon in 2021 as a new MP, before his rise to PM and subsequent plummeting popularity. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Here’s the 10 things that stood out for me from me reading over the last day, as at 10:10 am on Wednesday, April 10:Must read: Tova O’Brien describes ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago
  • What’s happening with Airport to Botany
    One of the few public transport projects the current government have said they support is the Airport to Botany project (A2B) and it’s one we haven’t covered in a while so worth looking at where things are at. A business case for the project was completed in 2021 before being ...
    3 days ago
  • Bishop more popular than Luxon in Curia poll
    Count the Chrises: Chris Bishop (2nd from right) is moving up in the popularity polls. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: These six things stood out to me over the last day in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy, as of 7:06 am on Wednesday, April 10:The National/ACT/NZ First coalition Government’s opinion poll ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago
  • Silmarillion Fan Poetry: A Collection (2022-2024)
    It’s been some time since I properly exercised my poetic muscles. Prose-writing has been where it’s at for me, these past few years. Well, to get back into practice, I thought I’d write the occasional bit of jocular fan poetry, based off Tolkien’s Silmarillion… with this post being a collection ...
    3 days ago
  • At a glance – The Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) is not causing global warming
    On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
    3 days ago
  • Bryce Edwards: What’s to blame for the public’s plummeting trust in the media?
    The media is in crisis, as New Zealand audiences flee from traditional sources of news and information. The latest survey results on the public’s attitude to the media shows plummeting trust. And New Zealand now leads the world in terms of those who want to “avoid the news”. But who ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    4 days ago
  • Dead on target
    My targets for today are: 1 newsletter sent out by 4.30pm 800 words of copy delivered to a client by COB, as we say in the world of BAU1 dinner served by sunset GST returnSo far so good. Longer-term targets are: Get some website copy finished before I get on a plane on Saturday ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    4 days ago
  • The PM sets nine policy targets- and in case you missed the truancy one, Seymour has provided some...
    Buzz from the Beehive Targets and travel were a theme in the latest flow of ministerial announcements. The PM announced a raft of targets (“nine ambitious Government Targets to help improve the lives of New Zealanders”) along with plans to head for Singapore, Thailand, and Philippines. His Deputy and Foreign ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    4 days ago
  • Climate Change: Unwelcome advice
    Yesterday He Pou a Rangi Climate Change Commission released two key pieces of advice, on the 2036-40 emissions budget and the 2050 target. Both are statutorily required as part of the Zero Carbon Act budgeting / planning process, and both have a round of public consultation before being finalised and ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • In a structural deficit, the only real tax cut is a spending cut
    Eric Crampton writes –  This week’s column in the Stuff papers. A snippet: Tabarrok warned that America had two political parties – “the Tax and Spenders and the No-Tax and Spenders” – and neither was fiscally conservative. In the two decades after Tabarrok’s warning, the federal government ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    4 days ago
  • A Return to Kindness?
    New Zealanders are a pretty fair minded bunch. By and large we like to give people a go.Ian Foster, for example, had a terrible record as a head rugby coach. Like not even good, and did we let that bother us? Yeah, but also Nah. Because we went ahead and ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    4 days ago
  • Aukus or not, New Zealand’s foreign policy is being remade
    Geoffrey Miller writes –  This could be a watershed week for New Zealand’s international relations. Winston Peters, the foreign minister, is heading to Washington DC for a full week of meetings. The surprisingly lengthy trip just happens to coincide with a major trilateral summit of leaders from the United States, ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    4 days ago
  • Back to the future, with a 2032 deadline
    Aiming to look visionary and focused, Luxon has announced nine targets to improve measures for education, health, crime and climate emissions - but the reality is only one target is well above pre-Covid levels. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The six news items of note for me in Aotearoa-NZ’s ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • Why Rod Carr is optimistic farmers can beat climate change
    The future of farming went on the line yesterday when the Climate Change Commission presented its first review of New Zealand’s target of net zero emissions by 2050. The Commission said New Zealand’s target was unlikely to be consistent with the 2015 Paris Agreement goal of holding temperature rise to ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    4 days ago
  • Grifters, Bigots & Booling With the Dawgs
    Hi,I hope you had a good weekend. I was mostly in bed with the worst flu of my life.Today I’m emerging on the other side — and looking forward to what I can catch of the total solar eclipse rippling across parts of America today.Whilst hacking through a cough, I’ve ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    4 days ago
  • Goldsmith spots a cost-saver in his Justice domain – let’s further erode our right (under Magna ...
    Bob Edlin writes – Chapter 39 of the Magna Carta (from memory) includes the guarantee that no free man may suffer punishment without “the lawful judgment of his peers.” This was a measure which the barons forced on England’s King John to delegate part of his judicial authority ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    4 days ago
  • Climate Adam: Is Global Warming Speeding Up?
    This video includes conclusions of the creator climate scientist Dr. Adam Levy. It is presented to our readers as an informed perspective. Please see video description for references (if any). Thanks to climate change, 2023 has shattered heat records, and 2024 is continuing where last year left off. With this devastating ...
    4 days ago
  • Brooke is on the TV, being a Minister!
    Brooke is on the TV, being a Minister! She is going to talk to Jack on the TV!It's hard to watch Jack on the TV without thinking to yourself:How can anyone be that good-looking,and also be even brainier than they are good-looking?Talk about lucky!But also, Jack works for the TV news. So ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    5 days ago
  • There’s gold – or rather, energy without carbon – in that rock, but Jones reminds us of the Tr...
    Buzz from the Beehive Oh, dear.  One News tells us an ownership spat is brewing between Māori and the Crown as New Zealand uses more renewable energy sources. No, not water or the shoreline.  Ownership of another resource has come into the reckoning. The One News report explained that 99% of ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    5 days ago
  • Climate Change: Bad faith from National
    One of the weird features of the Zero Carbon Act was its split-gas targets, which separated methane, produced overwhelmingly by farmers, from carbon dioxide produced by the rest of us. This lower target for methane was another effective subsidy to the dairy industry, and was the result of a compromise ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell on Israel’s murderous use of AI in Gaza
    This may seem like a dumb question– but how come Israel has managed to kill at least 33,000 Palestinian civilians in Gaza, including over 13,000 children? Of course, saturation aerial bombing and artillery shelling of densely populated civilian neighbourhoods will do that. So will the targeting of children by IDF ...
    Gordon CampbellBy ScoopEditor
    5 days ago
  • Total Eclipse of the Mind.
    All that you touch And all that you seeAll that you taste All you feelAnd all that you love And all that you hateAll you distrust All you saveEarly tomorrow morning as the sun is rising in Aotearoa many people across North America, from Mexico to Canada, will be losing ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago
  • So why do that degree… here?
    A report – and discussion – from the university front line… Mike Grimshaw writes – I have been involved in numerous curriculum and degree reviews over the decades and in all of them the question always skirted around is: “If you had to leave now with ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • The hunt is on for an asterix for farm emissions
    The Government is setting up its own experts group to review the goalposts for farmers to reduce methane emissions. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The six news items of note for me in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy as of 9:06 am on Monday, April 8 are:The Government is setting up ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Geoffrey Miller: Aukus or not, New Zealand’s foreign policy is being remade
    This could be a watershed week for New Zealand’s international relations. Winston Peters, the foreign minister, is heading to Washington DC for a full week of meetings. The surprisingly lengthy trip just happens to coincide with a major trilateral summit of leaders from the United States, Japan and the Philippines. ...
    Democracy ProjectBy Geoffrey Miller
    5 days ago
  • The Kaka’s diary for the week to April 15 and beyond
    TL;DR: The six key events to watch in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy in the week to April 15 include:PM Christopher Luxon is scheduled to hold a post-Cabinet news conference at 4 pm today. The Climate Commission will publish advice to the Government this evening.Parliament is sitting from Question Time at 2pm ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • 2024 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #14
    A listing of 34 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, March 31, 2024 thru Sat, April 6, 2024. Story of the week Proxy measurement via Facebook "engagement" suggests a widely welcoming audience for Prof. Andrew Dessler's The Climate ...
    5 days ago
  • Their Money or Your Life.
    Brooke van Velden appeared this morning on Q&A, presumably paying homage to Margaret Thatcher. The robotic one had come in an 80s pink, shoulder-padded jacket, much favoured by the likes of Thatcher or Hosking. She also brought the spirit of Margaret, seemingly occupying her previously vacant soul compartment.Jack asked for ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    6 days ago
  • Truth pulls its boots on
    It's a lot easier to pull off a lie if people don't know much about what you're lying about.Sometimes, watching Christopher Luxon, you get the impression he doesn't know all that much about it, either.​​ That's the charitable interpretation. The other is that he knows full well.He was on the ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    6 days ago
  • Those of a certain vintage in this country will recognise that as a paraphrasing of the much celebrated Paul Holmes sign-off from his nightly current affairs show, yes, he of the “cheekie darkie” comment infamy (that one aimed at then-UN Chief Kofi Annan, and if unfamiliar with what followed in ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    6 days ago
  • Are You Missing Kindness Yet?
    In my last newsletter I asked how is Luxon this out of touch? Many of you, quite wisely, don’t do the Twitter thing so I thought I’d share a few of the comments from the cross section of humanity that you encounter there.The comment from Clandesdiner@boglyboohoo, not sure if that’s ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    7 days ago
  • How NZ and Taiwan differ in disaster preparedness
    Peter Dunne writes –  Taiwan and New Zealand are two small island states with much in common. Both are vibrant, independent democracies, living in the shadow of an overbearing neighbour. (Admittedly, Taiwan’s overbearing neighbour has far more aggressive tendencies than our at-times overbearing neighbour!) There is a strong ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    7 days ago
  • Why Shane Jones sunk the Kermadecs Marine Sanctuary
    Bryce Edwards writes – Did vested interests prevent New Zealand from establishing a world-leading environmental marine reserve? There are strong signs that in killing off the proposal for a Kermadec Islands Marine Sanctuary, Shane Jones has been doing the bidding of several industries and groups that he’s closely ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    7 days ago
  • Nearly a month of it
    Hello! There has not been an omnibus for about three weeks because covid and bereavement got in the way.Here’s what you may have missed if you’re not a daily reader.Life’s Little Victories - I think I’ve dodged COVIDTwo Bar Blues - I haven’t Relentlessly Negative - Things seem to be ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    7 days ago
  • Coastal court action flies under the radar
    Graham Adams says NZ’s coastline may end up under iwi control. Former Attorney-General and Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations Chris Finlayson is known for his forthright and sometimes combative language. In 2022, in discussing opposition to co-governance, he referred to “the sour right” and “the KKK brigade”. Last week, in ...
    Point of OrderBy gadams1000
    1 week ago
  • Does a Fiscal Debt Target Make Sense?
    Do we treat the government finances with the common sense that household’s manage theirs?It is a commonly held view that we should treat the government as if it is a prudent household. We don’t when it comes to its debt. Currently the government says it wants to constrain its net ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    1 week ago
  • Bryce Edwards: Why Shane Jones sunk the Kermadecs Marine Sanctuary
    Did vested interests prevent New Zealand from establishing a world-leading environmental marine reserve? There are strong signs that in killing off the proposal for a Kermadec Islands Marine Sanctuary, Shane Jones has been doing the bidding of several industries and groups that he’s closely connected with. As Oceans and Fisheries ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Spite destroys success
    The clean car discount was a real policy success in pushing electrification of transport. It worked so well that EV adoption was running five years ahead of the Climate Commission's targets, giving us a real shot at decarbonising light transport. National killed it out of pure spite. And as expected, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago

  • Huge interest in Government’s infrastructure plans
    Hundreds of people in little over a week have turned out in Northland to hear Regional Development Minister Shane Jones speak about plans for boosting the regional economy through infrastructure. About 200 people from the infrastructure and associated sectors attended an event headlined by Mr Jones in Whangarei today. Last ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    13 hours ago
  • Health Minister thanks outgoing Health New Zealand Chair
    Health Minister Dr Shane Reti has today thanked outgoing Health New Zealand – Te Whatu Ora Chair Dame Karen Poutasi for her service on the Board.   “Dame Karen tendered her resignation as Chair and as a member of the Board today,” says Dr Reti.  “I have asked her to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    14 hours ago
  • Roads of National Significance planning underway
    The NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) has signalled their proposed delivery approach for the Government’s 15 Roads of National Significance (RoNS), with the release of the State Highway Investment Proposal (SHIP) today, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “Boosting economic growth and productivity is a key part of the Government’s plan to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    17 hours ago
  • Navigating an unstable global environment
    New Zealand is renewing its connections with a world facing urgent challenges by pursuing an active, energetic foreign policy, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.   “Our country faces the most unstable global environment in decades,” Mr Peters says at the conclusion of two weeks of engagements in Egypt, Europe and the United States.    “We cannot afford to sit back in splendid ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    18 hours ago
  • NZ welcomes Australian Governor-General
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has announced the Australian Governor-General, His Excellency General The Honourable David Hurley and his wife Her Excellency Mrs Linda Hurley, will make a State visit to New Zealand from Tuesday 16 April to Thursday 18 April. The visit reciprocates the State visit of former Governor-General Dame Patsy Reddy ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    18 hours ago
  • Pseudoephedrine back on shelves for Winter
    Associate Health Minister David Seymour has announced that Medsafe has approved 11 cold and flu medicines containing pseudoephedrine. Pharmaceutical suppliers have indicated they may be able to supply the first products in June. “This is much earlier than the original expectation of medicines being available by 2025. The Government recognised ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    20 hours ago
  • NZ and the US: an ever closer partnership
    New Zealand and the United States have recommitted to their strategic partnership in Washington DC today, pledging to work ever more closely together in support of shared values and interests, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.    “The strategic environment that New Zealand and the United States face is considerably more ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    23 hours ago
  • Joint US and NZ declaration
    April 11, 2024 Joint Declaration by United States Secretary of State the Honorable Antony J. Blinken and New Zealand Minister of Foreign Affairs the Right Honourable Winston Peters We met today in Washington, D.C. to recommit to the historic partnership between our two countries and the principles that underpin it—rule ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    23 hours ago
  • NZ and US to undertake further practical Pacific cooperation
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced further New Zealand cooperation with the United States in the Pacific Islands region through $16.4 million in funding for initiatives in digital connectivity and oceans and fisheries research.   “New Zealand can achieve more in the Pacific if we work together more urgently and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Government redress for Te Korowai o Wainuiārua
    The Government is continuing the bipartisan effort to restore its relationship with iwi as the Te Korowai o Wainuiārua Claims Settlement Bill passed its first reading in Parliament today, says Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith. “Historical grievances of Te Korowai o Wainuiārua relate to 19th century warfare, land purchased or taken ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Focus on outstanding minerals permit applications
    New Zealand Petroleum and Minerals is working to resolve almost 150 outstanding minerals permit applications by the end of the financial year, enabling valuable mining activity and signalling to the sector that New Zealand is open for business, Resources Minister Shane Jones says.  “While there are no set timeframes for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Applications open for NZ-Ireland Research Call
    The New Zealand and Irish governments have today announced that applications for the 2024 New Zealand-Ireland Joint Research Call on Agriculture and Climate Change are now open. This is the third research call in the three-year Joint Research Initiative pilot launched in 2022 by the Ministry for Primary Industries and Ireland’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Tenancy rules changes to improve rental market
    The coalition Government has today announced changes to the Residential Tenancies Act to encourage landlords back to the rental property market, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “The previous Government waged a war on landlords. Many landlords told us this caused them to exit the rental market altogether. It caused worse ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Boosting NZ’s trade and agricultural relationship with China
    Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay will visit China next week, to strengthen relationships, support Kiwi exporters and promote New Zealand businesses on the world stage. “China is one of New Zealand’s most significant trade and economic relationships and remains an important destination for New Zealand’s products, accounting for nearly 22 per cent of our good and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Freshwater farm plan systems to be improved
    The coalition Government intends to improve freshwater farm plans so that they are more cost-effective and practical for farmers, Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay have announced. “A fit-for-purpose freshwater farm plan system will enable farmers and growers to find the right solutions for their farm ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • New Fast Track Projects advisory group named
    The coalition Government has today announced the expert advisory group who will provide independent recommendations to Ministers on projects to be included in the Fast Track Approvals Bill, say RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Regional Development Minister Shane Jones. “Our Fast Track Approval process will make it easier and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Pacific and Gaza focus of UN talks
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters says his official talks with the United Nations Secretary-General Antonio Guterres in New York today focused on a shared commitment to partnering with the Pacific Islands region and a common concern about the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza.    “Small states in the Pacific rely on collective ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Government honours Taranaki Maunga deal
    The Government is honouring commitments made to Taranaki iwi with the Te Pire Whakatupua mō Te Kāhui Tupua/Taranaki Maunga Collective Redress Bill passing its first reading Parliament today, Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “This Bill addresses the commitment the Crown made to the eight iwi of Taranaki to negotiate ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Enhanced partnership to reduce agricultural emissions
    The Government and four further companies are together committing an additional $18 million towards AgriZeroNZ to boost New Zealand’s efforts to reduce agricultural emissions. Agriculture Minister Todd McClay says the strength of the New Zealand economy relies on us getting effective and affordable emission reduction solutions for New Zealand. “The ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • 110km/h limit proposed for Kāpiti Expressway
    Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed news the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) will begin consultation this month on raising speed limits for the Kāpiti Expressway to 110km/h. “Boosting economic growth and productivity is a key part of the Government’s plan to rebuild the economy and this proposal supports that outcome ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New Zealand Biosecurity Awards – Winners announced
    Two New Zealanders who’ve used their unique skills to help fight the exotic caulerpa seaweed are this year’s Biosecurity Awards Supreme Winners, says Biosecurity Minister Andrew Hoggard. “Strong biosecurity is vital and underpins the whole New Zealand economy and our native flora and fauna. These awards celebrate all those in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Attendance action plan to lift student attendance rates
    The Government is taking action to address the truancy crisis and raise attendance by delivering the attendance action plan, Associate Education Minister David Seymour announced today.   New Zealand attendance rates are low by national and international standards. Regular attendance, defined as being in school over 90 per cent of the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • World must act to halt Gaza catastrophe – Peters
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has told the United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) in New York today that an immediate ceasefire is needed in Gaza to halt the ongoing humanitarian catastrophe.    “Palestinian civilians continue to bear the brunt of Israel’s military actions,” Mr Peters said in his speech to a ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Speech to United Nations General Assembly: 66th plenary meeting, 78th session
    Mr President,   The situation in Gaza is an utter catastrophe.   New Zealand condemns Hamas for its heinous terrorist attacks on 7 October and since, including its barbaric violations of women and children. All of us here must demand that Hamas release all remaining hostages immediately.   At the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Government woolshed roadshow kicks off
    Today the Government Agriculture Ministers started their national woolshed roadshow, kicking off in the Wairarapa. Agriculture Minister Todd McClay said it has been a tough time for farmers over the past few years. The sector has faced high domestic inflation rates, high interest rates, adverse weather events, and increasing farm ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • PM heads to Singapore, Thailand, and Philippines
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon will travel to Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines this week (April 14-20), along with a senior business delegation, signalling the Government’s commitment to deepen New Zealand’s international engagement, especially our relationships in South East Asia. “South East Asia is a region that is more crucial than ever to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Prime Minister launches Government Targets
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has announced further steps to get New Zealand back on track, launching nine ambitious Government Targets to help improve the lives of New Zealanders. “Our Government has a plan that is focused on three key promises we made to New Zealanders – to rebuild the economy, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Natural hydrogen resource should be free of Treaty claims entanglement
    Natural hydrogen could be a game-changing new source of energy for New Zealand but it is essential it is treated as a critical development that benefits all New Zealanders, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones is seeking to give regulatory certainty for those keen to develop natural, or geological, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Government responds to unsustainable net migration
    ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • New Zealand on stage at global Space Symposium
    Space Minister Judith Collins will speak at the Space Symposium in the United States next week, promoting New Zealand’s rapidly growing place in the sector as we work to rebuild the economy. “As one of the largest global space events, attended by more than 10,000 business and government representatives from ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • $4.9m project completed with marae reopening
    A significant marae has reopened in the heart of Rotorua marking the end of renovations for the Ruatāhuna Marae Renovation Cluster, a project that provided much-needed jobs and regional economic stimulus, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones was at the official reopening of Mātaatua ki Rotorua Marae today. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Pure Tūroa Limited to operate Tūroa ski field
    Ko Tahuarangi te waka – Tahuarangi is the ancestral vessel Ko Rangitukutuku te aho – Rangitukutuku is the fishing line Ko Pikimairawea te matau – Pikimairawea is the hook Ko Hāhā te Whenua te ika kei rō-wai – Hāhā te whenua is the fish (of Māui) whilst under the ocean ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Methane targets to be independently reviewed
    Rebuilding New Zealand’s economy will rely on the valuable agricultural sector working sustainably towards our climate change goals.  Today, the Climate Change and Agriculture Ministers announced that an independent panel of experts will review agricultural biogenic methane science and targets for consistency with no additional warming. Agriculture Minister Todd McClay ...
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