Harawira’s recount bid did not “backfire”

Written By: - Date published: 3:17 pm, October 9th, 2014 - 155 comments
Categories: hone harawira, mana, mana-party, spin - Tags: ,

The usual tory cheerleaders have been quick to heap further bile on Hone Harawira:

Harawira’s recount bid backfires

Mana leader Hone Harawira has failed in his bid to overturn the result in Te Tai Tokerau after an official recount delivered his opponents more votes.

The recount bid did not “backfire”, because Hone never expected to win the seat on recount (and the slightly amended totals are irrelevant). He had different goals:

Mr Harawira applied for the recount on Tuesday because his party was concerned about the large number of discarded votes in the Maori electorate and wanted independent scrutiny of the results. Mr Harawira also believed Maori voters had been mistreated at polling booths.

He was very clear about this on a recent Morning Report.

The glee with which certain elements of the commentariat are enjoying Hone’s loss is pretty revolting. Whether you agree with the man or not he earned the right, with what he was trying to accomplish, to a bit of respect.

155 comments on “Harawira’s recount bid did not “backfire””

  1. Bruce 1

    [deleted]

    [lprent: You didn’t read the post. Banned for 4 weeks for diversion trolling. ]

  2. Realblue 2

    A bit harsh there, he’s entitled to ask for a recount. [deleted]

    [lprent: You didn’t read the post. I will be a bit harsh here – banned for 4 weeks for diversion trolling. Also just be grateful that I don’t have time today to look to see if you are talking to yourself. I’d give you a really good ban for sockpuppetting. ]

  3. Picard101 3

    I’m sorry but I simply do not agree that this was a purely altruistic maneuver by Hone. He was hoping to win.

    He was going on about 100s, if not 1000s of votes early this week/late last week. As well as boasting about not having conceded meaning he could jet around the place on the taxpayers dime to visit mates. He really did not believe that the voters had gone with someone else.

    Yes he has some fantastic ideas and desires, especially when it comes to kids and the poor of our country, but almost all his good will in the country will be gone after this mess. Refusing to concede and showing off that he can run around on the taxpayers dime (which wasnt true),claiming acts of racism at polling booths, which he never produced any evidence of, claiming 100s/1000s of votes were illegally invalidated, demanding a recount and IMO being less than honest for his reasoning, is it any wonder his political foes are having a field day?

    It is time for Hone to just go. Accept the voters wishes and just go.

  4. Gonzo 4

    What should they have said on Stuff then. Maybe Harawira kicks own goal?

    It is after all a headline and I have seen a few quite inventive ones even on this site, for instance “John Key’s police poodles”. Clearly they are not poodles regardless of your opinion.

    [lprent: It appear you didn’t read the post either. 4 weeks ban for diversion trolling. Don’t these morans ever use their brains or read the policy. They are like lemmings ]

    • wekarawshark 4.1

      It’s a metaphor. You understand what someone means when they say someone is a poodle? If you disagree that the police have that kind of relationship with Key then say so, but saying they aren’t poodles is just stupid.

      Likewise, Harawira didn’t kick an own goal, because the reason for the recount wasn’t to increase his vote. I doubt he gives too much of a shit about the numbers. He wanted the votes looked at because of voter suppression issues. Did you even read the post? What was so difficult to understand?

    • McFlock 4.2

      The problem is not the use of an analogy in a headline.
      The problem is that the analogy apparently illustrated a lie.

      Harawira did not “bid to overturn the result”, he “wanted independent scrutiny of the results”. Tacked in at the end of the stuff article, it appears the objective was achieved (my italics):

      Judge Broadmore said he would issue a further judgement relating to matters that came to his attention during the recount, and which of concern to the parties, but which had not affected the result.

      It’s a very short post you commented on. I’m surprised you missed the point.

  5. NeutObserver 5

    Backfire is not the word. “Roundly defeated” is the more appropriate term

    • wekarawshark 5.1

      I haven’t looked. Is Harawira’s vote more or less than 2011?

      • swordfish 5.1.1

        Party Vote Te Tai Tokerau 2011-14

        2011……………………………………………………….2014………..
        Lab……. 6855 ……….34.7%…………….8033……….35.5%
        Mana…. 4844……….24.5%…………….4247……….18.8%
        Maori…. 2208……….11.2%…………….2301……….10.2%
        NZF…… 1950 ……….9.9%………………3296……….14.6%
        Nat…… 1814…………9.2%……………..1938………..8.6%
        Green… 1704…………8.6%……………..2275……….10.0%

        Candidate Vote Te Tai Tokerau 2011-14

        2011………………………………………………………2014………..
        Lab…….6956……….37.1%…………….9710……….44.8%
        Mana….8121……….43.3%…………….8971……….41.3%
        Maori….3114……….16.6%…………….2565……….11.8%
        ALCP…….559………..3.0%…….Ind…….451……….2.1%

        2014 = does not include recount

  6. adam 6

    And the racist come out of the woodwork.

    I’m pretty sure all the jingoists want our army to go to war – an army which is made up of predominantly maori.

    So why is it when a Maori leader ask what is happening to Maori votes – they coming spewing their vial rubbish?

    Is it that you hate Maori so much you think their votes are worse less?

    And I can attest to the second part of his statement, I have watched some pretty ignorant dealings by staff at polling booths over the years – especially of my Kāi Tahu friends.

    • Rob 6.1

      “So why is it when a Maori leader ask what is happening to Maori votes – they coming spewing their vial rubbish? ”

      We actually do know what happened to the Maori votes in this electorate, the majority voted for Labour. You just don’t like the result do you?

      • adam 6.1.1

        Can you read rob? I’m serious, in the context of the original post?

        Do you understand why he asked for what he asked for?

        Is this you trying to be a Politically Correct racist, and hiding it around the electoral result?

      • GregJ 6.1.2

        I think you mean a plurality voted for Labour and the Labour candidate not a majority.

  7. The Real Matthew 7

    A recount was a strange way to try and address the issues Hone was raising.

    Andrew Geddis has written an excellent piece on the situation over at Pundit (apologies if we aren’t allowed to link to other blogs) http://www.pundit.co.nz/content/hones-last-stand

    [lprent: Link all you like. The trick is not to just dump a link in or to drop in links that are not relevant to the post of comments (that is known as link-whoring), but to provide a reason why people should click on it.

    You did well. Thank you. Have a look at the policy. It describes the types of behaviours that the moderators will get pissed about, and those that are allowed. ]

    • wekarawshark 7.1

      Linking is good.

    • wekarawshark 7.2

      “A recount was a strange way to try and address the issues Hone was raising.”

      It’s taken me a while to get it. I thought at first there was something about the recount that would make any irregularities on voting day apparent. But now I think it’s more that Harawira used the recount in two ways. One is to get a whole bunch of people talking (achieved), and the other is to get the recount judge to say something (judgement not out yet).

      If Harawira had not asked for a recount and had simply raised the voter suppression issues, then I think it would have gotten a days coverage in the media and then sunk like a stone. These issues were being raised well before the recount, but no-one was paying much attention. Now they are.

      • Picard101 7.2.1

        The problem for Hone is the story is going to be about him having less votes than he got on the night, and he will be seen as a petulant child by the general public for demanding this recount. Most people will see this as a failed attempt by Hone to overturn the vote on the night, and it failed. He will be made to look like a joke.

        He has not helped his cause by running around saying he gets to keep his free travel by not conceding, which was just untrue. Nor claiming racism or intimidation at the polling booths with zero hard evidence presented.

        If is intent was to bring to light potential illegal activities, (which as I stated above, I personally do not buy) then he has failed. So unless the judge finds that Maori voters were turned away in the 1000’s by white people screaming racist abuse at them, then this will be a dead story.

        • wekarawshark 7.2.1.1

          fuck the MSM and fuck the white people who want to write this off. Harawira’s knows what he is about. You think he doesn’t know what the MSM will do? You think Māori don’t understand full well how the MSM misreprents them and their issues? Seriously?

          Just consider that Harawira may be quite aware of the things you raise, and factored them into his strategy.

          From my Pākehā perspective I think that the white people in NZ who support anti-racism work will be paying attention and will be working through the issues in themselves and getting to a place of understanding and tautoko. But I think that Harawira will be operating out of a world view that most Pākehā are largely unaware of.

          • Picard101 7.2.1.1.1

            Facts to take away from the news on both channels tonight:

            1: Hone went down in the recount and Kelvin went up
            2: He requested it (no mention of his campaign to fight irregularities)
            3: It cost taxpayers $30’000
            4: The word ‘backfired’ was used
            5: The story got about 20 seconds of airtime on both channels

            You can rant and rave about the MSM conspiracy, and praise Hone for his strategy, such as it is given how well his strategy to align with the Internet party worked out – but judging from tonight’s coverage, this is a dead story already and Hone just looks silly.

            • wekarawshark 7.2.1.1.1.1

              Well that’s all very interesting, but it has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have said. I think you are missing the point, and I’m guessing you are ideologically blind to Harawira’s strategy, which might be why you keep insisting on viewing it through what you think he should have done instead of understanding why he did the he did.

              oh, and you failed almost competely to respond to my comment, and instead just rephrased what you said before. Just because you say it twice doesn’t make it more true or more meaningful.

              • Picard101

                It really matters not one jot why he did it (but for the record I do not believe he is doing this for anything other than sour grapes. Hell he bragged about sucking on the taxpayers teat all last week, not someone with great standards in my opinion).

                What matters is how it will play out. And you can make all the grand claims you like about strategies and what not, but the fact is, this little trist will only serve to undermine him further, ruin what credibility he has, allow Kelvin to fully overshadow him in the north and bring about nothing he is claiming to be fighting for. And come 2017, he will be almost unelectable.

                • wekarawshark

                  “What matters is how it will play out.”

                  Ok, concern trole, as mentioned already saying something multiple times doesn’t make it more true or meaningful. You obviously dislike the guy so of course you are going to go with the most negative interpretation of events you can come up with.

                  And of course now here we are arguing about Harawira’s personality flaws instead of looking at voter suppression in NZ. Well done mate.

                  • Picard101

                    Where is the hard evidence of voter suppression? Hone has made the claim, now he needs to back it up.

                    Lets see the proof. Or is Hone taking lessons from Winston. Making grand claims, then never backing them up.

                    As for the man himself, not fussed on him one way or the other. I like many of his policies around children and poverty, but he sold out to DC for money. So for all his talk, he is just another trougher now.

                    • wekarawshark

                      Dude, the point of the post was to show that Harawira had a different agenda when he asked for a recount (other than increasing his vote). That different agenda was to get some focus on what’s been happening with voting in Te Tai Tokerau. The judge who did the recount has indicated there are some issues but hasn’t made his judgement yet. It’s all in process. How about you come back in a months time and see if there is any evidence?

                      In the meantime there is this, try doing some reading on the topic, you can start here,

                      Harawira’s recount bid did not “backfire”

                      We might want to ask why you think Harawira is a liar. Although I’m sick of this conversation now, because it looks like just another Bash Hone attempt and I can’t be bothered.

                    • Picard101

                      The reason I do not buy into this whole “racist conspiracy” weka is because of Hone himself.

                      He has committed acts of racism in the past, he boasted about not conceding and jetting around to see his mates on the taxpayers back, went on about 100s or 1000s of votes not being allowed (clearly a hint they were for him). He sold out to DC for money. I simply do not find him a honest or moral person anymore. And the only agenda he had IMO was to overturn the vote.

                      And the fact that he has been running around the place screaming racism and presented no proof, only enlarges my mistrust of his word. And the reason you can no longer be bothered is because I have asked for proof and you have none.

                      As I said before, he has some very good policies on poverty and children. Sadly he has thrown all that to the wind in recent weeks and now looks like just another politician trying to hang on to the perks of the office.

                    • Pascals bookie

                      what did he sell out?

                      name one policy or goal he gave up for money, that’s what ‘selling out’ means doesn’t it? what did kdc get for his money? what did Hone give up or abandon?

                      so now you’ve made the allegation that he sold out, let’s see your hard evidence.

                    • Pascals bookie

                      and you should stop lying. go and find his farewell to parliament and check all the tributes from various people from across the spectrum to him, and check what he says about feeding the kids.

                      nah, you’re just a bell end mate, you’re not fooling anyone.

                    • Picard101

                      He joined up with Dotcom for the money, not because of policy, not because of a shared vision of the future. For money. He sold out for cash, as opposed to staying true to his convictions. I truly believe that if he had stayed away from Dotcom he would be an MP right now. Instead he took the cash.

                      Hell, even his position on dope started to soften as the campaign went on. Which was a massive shame. It went from no means no, to well we are still looking at this that and the next thing.

                      Bradford saw him as a sell out for this, a lot of his long time supporters were very upset and angry with him, and on election night his actions cost him his electorate.

                      You may not think this makes him a sell out, but for me, Bradford, the voters of TTT, it does.

                    • Picard101

                      And I see in typical form, when someone cannot argue the point they go all childish and name call.

                      Oh well.

                    • wekarawshark

                      What racist conspiracy? Now you’re just making shit up and pretending it’s what other people have said.

                    • blue leopard

                      Picard 101

                      Hone accepting help from Dotcom simply showed he would take any opportunity to get more representation for the people and causes he works hard for. i.e. to me it showed passion that he joined with Dotcom – not compromise or ‘troughing’.

                      I agree with the good points that Wekarawshark has made.

                      Additionally, I think it is important to point out that getting a recount was the best thing to do in order to address concerns being expressed about the accuracy of the count and whether votes had been missed.

                      The results of the recount has paradoxically both allowed more confidence to be felt for that process, because not huge amounts of votes were missed yet because there were some votes missed – which is a pretty serious matter – has also shown that there are some issues that need to be addressed.

                      Democracy needs to be questioned and checked from time to time, to avoid slackness, corruption and/or lackadaisical attitudes from creeping in and to ensure that the all-important sense of trust is retained by the public for the process.

                      Harawira requesting a recount was actually an extremely sound action to pursue for the above reasons.

                      It is a pity that the news missed raising these types of points in their coverage of the matter. TV One obviously felt it was more important to mention the money it took to get the recount, rather than mention the important matters that getting the recount addressed – that of ensuring our electoral processes are sound and can be trusted.

                      Good on Hone for pursuing the matter.

                    • wekarawshark

                      “You may not think this makes him a sell out, but for me, Bradford, the voters of TTT, it does.”

                      Did you know he got more votes this time than in 2011?

                    • Picard101

                      I suggest to check what Hone has been saying as well as others on here Weka.

                      Racism rife in this country, corrupt system etc…

                      Oh and I thought you were done. Or did you find some proof of the claims being made to show me? I would be happy to look at if if you have it.

                    • The Real Matthew

                      “what did he sell out?

                      name one policy or goal he gave up for money, that’s what ‘selling out’ means doesn’t it? what did kdc get for his money? what did Hone give up or abandon?”

                      Drug Reform

                    • Picard101

                      Blue leopard, it showed a great number of people that Hone was after the cash and was willing to lose someone as loyal as Bradford for it.

                      Sorry, I just do not see it in the same way you do.

                    • blue leopard

                      @Picard 101

                      What do you think he intended to do with that cash? Buy a new swimming pool or a multi-million dollar mansion?

                      It is very obvious that the cash was accepted in order to have more resources for raising awareness, and thus support, for the causes that he represents.

                      What about the other points I raised?

                      I think it is very important that the recount is not misunderstood because there are some very important principles in a democracy at stake that are missed when the recount is viewed incorrectly.

                      I really do think Hone’s actions are commendable in the pursuit of ensuring that trust is retained in the system, rather than having questions left unanswered.

                    • wekarawshark

                      Māori pointing out racism doesn’t have anything to do with a racist conspiracy. Get a dictionary and look it up.

                      I’ve already answered your question about evidence and you’re ignoring that.

                    • Picard101

                      Blue, given how he has carried on in the last couple of weeks, I do not believe he got the recount for the reasons he is now stating.

                      The reason being touted for the recount is a good reason to carry out a recount, but I do not believe this was Hone’s reason.

                      As for the cash, yes he got it to bolster his warchest, but where it came from – hell he may as well of had John Key funding him.

                      I do not expect us to agree.

                    • Picard101

                      Maori pointing out racism.. no hard proof of that at all. And as for what you have presented – yea, opinion of board posters does not equal hard proof.

                      Keep trying Weka.

                    • wekarawshark

                      it was a description of events.

                    • Picard101

                      A description is not hard proof.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Picard101 you’re a small minded kind of prick.

                      What I wonder, is why you’re so concerned about former MP Hone Harawira. The guy has lost his seat in a humiliating loss, yet you’re still on his case. What about Hone keeps worrying you mate?

                    • blue leopard

                      @Picard 101

                      You now appear concerned what his intent was, however earlier in the conversation you stated: “It really matters not one jot why he did it”

                      I suggest you make up your mind.

                      You are probably correct in that we are unlikely to agree, however I think you are being somewhat suckered in by the line that has been fed to the general public and, worse, are propagating it and I think it is important that the facts of the matter gets an airing.

                      As I said, I think wekarawshark has made some extremely pertinent points, and I hope you reread those points and absorb them.

                      Fact of the matter is having a recount clears up questions that have been floating around this election. This is a good result.

                    • Picard101

                      Goodness more name calling.

                      How is it small minded to hold an opinion that is not the same as yours?

                      And as for why the discussion – this thread is about Hone and his recount and his reason for it. I have just as much right to express my opinion as everyone else. Also, I am not the only person in this thread that has expressed their disbelief of his current reasoning for asking for the recount. I just happen to be the one that the likes of Weka have focused on. So, I answer because I want to. No other reason.

                      You do not have to agree with it, but calling me names like a kid in the playground does nothing for your point of view.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Picard the Prick with the Pretence of Polite Poltick

                    • Picard101

                      Blue – the only questions about the TTT result were from Hone.

                      Perhaps if the Maori Party came out with similar second hand information, we might have to scratch our heads and say, hold on this isn’t right. But not a word from them. Unless the next suggestion is going to be only Mana voters were excluded – which would be interesting to say the least.

                      And as for the whole suckered in by the MSM bit -yeaaa na.

                      And as for Weka’s points, nothing to support them.

                      I suspect the judge will come back with a few minor things to look at, but nothing like what has been suggested. There will be no evidence of widespread exclusion, no evidence of Maori being made to wait while others were served first, etc… But if there is, then I would be happy to say I was wrong. But I doubt very much I ever will have to.

                    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark

                      Hey Picard, people are calling you out for what you are and what you fully invite to yourself as well as deserve. It is a wake-up call and you are given opportunities to reflect and re-examine your attitude.

                    • Picard101

                      Yes, how dare I be polite and refuse to call people names and focus on the topic at hand.

                      Bad, bad me. How evil am I.

                    • blue leopard

                      @ Picard 101

                      There have been quite a few questions floating around the internet regarding dubious/unfair treatment around voting. As I understand it, it has not simply been ‘coming from Hone’. [I will take a look around for links, haven’t got them right at hand]

                      Although, even if it were solely Hone Harawira speaking up about it, that doesn’t mean it ‘solely comes from Hone’. The man has been an MP and people will approach him and express concerns if untoward things are going on; so it isn’t a simply case of ‘Hone saying something ‘when he raises an issue – he may be speaking for many people.

                      You are repeating exactly the type of ideas that have been rocking around the mainstream news repetitively for years about Hone, so saying ‘yeah nah’ to the view that you have absorbed these ideas is neither here nor there. In fact, it might indicate you have absorbed Tui adverts too. 🙂

                    • Picard101

                      Blue – all Hone has to do is come out with evidence of it. That’s it. Don’t Winston the situation, just slap that proof down.

                      Blow the whole thing out of the water and get the system fixed. Hell if it is as bad as claimed I would have at a guess there could be grounds for a new election.

                      So, all I ask is for Hone to front up.

                      But I bet the lead story in all the papers and media tomorrow will not be about Hone fronting up. Nor even in a weeks time or a months time.

                    • McFlock

                      He raised the issue with the relevant authorities.
                      The judge will release his findings in due course.

                      Or do you belive in democratic-reforms-by-media?

                    • Picard101

                      And as I have said, I do not believe that the judge will find any evidence of what Hone is claiming.

                      So I guess my next pondering is how will Hone react when the judge does not support him? One of two ways I suspect, but given the rather hostile environment in here towards opposing views I think I will keep those thoughts to myself.

                    • blue leopard

                      @ Picard 101

                      Here is a link where Harawira is stating the problem prior to the election.

                      https://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/25042241/polling-booths-asked-to-treat-maori-voters-with-respect/

                      The article is dated 18 September before the result was announced. He can’t have been making such statements “because he ‘lost’ his electorate” at that point.

                      Clearly he is concerned by the feedback he is hearing and acting on that concern – as any decent member of parliament would.

                      [This is not responding to your latest comment, it was supposed to be attached to the end of my last comment]

                      Edit: Agree with McFlock
                      Not sure what the process is with the recount, but fortunately we are not living in such a banana republic that they haven’t taken his complaint seriously. I presume any ‘evidence’ (whatever that could be?) will be provided in the process.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Picard’s fascination with an ex-MP…what’s Picard so afraid of? Courageously holding a former Parliamentarian with no power or influence in Wellington like Hone to account – that’s Picard bravery for you.

                    • wekarawshark

                      yeah and he believes that Harawira and everyone else should jump to his demands and timeframes.

                    • Picard101

                      And his proof of this was……….

                      And given his behaviour over the last 2 weeks, I still do not buy this was his reason for asking for the recount. And again, if this was such a big issue, where was the Maori Party on this? Labour – given their determination to reclaim the Maori seats, the Greens? Surly their Maori voters would be expressing similar concerns to the party they support.

                      I want to see the hard evidence of it. Not second hand comments from an ex MP with questionable motives.

                    • wekarawshark

                      “One of two ways I suspect, but given the rather hostile environment in here towards opposing views I think I will keep those thoughts to myself.”

                      Oh good. That will save us getting out the world’s smallest violin.

                      The reason you are getting abuse is because,

                      1. you started posting your opinions here

                      2. people challenged you on those opinions by raising issues that ran counter to them

                      3. you ignored those issues and just kept saying the same thing in different ways

                      4. people again tried to discuss the issues with you

                      5. you ignored them

                      6. you twisted what other people said

                      7. you expressed opinion as fact

                      8. you tried to make out you’re a victim

                      9. you tried to tell the regulars here how to behave

                      10. you pulled the poor me card

                      did I miss any?

                    • wekarawshark

                      “I want to see the hard evidence of it.”

                      No you don’t, you want something that will affirm your prejudices.

                      You just haven’t realised yet that what you demand is irrelevant to this conversation.

                    • Picard101

                      Interesting theory.

                      Factually incorrect, but then that is your right.

                      Not sure exactly what I have ignored, etc… but hey feel free to repost anything you like, and I will repeat myself for you.

                    • Picard101

                      No weka, I want the evidence. Electoral fraud is a big deal. So, let Hone back up his claims.

                    • blue leopard

                      @Picard 101

                      And his proof of this was……….

                      Did you read the link I provided? It is clear that he has been approached by many people commenting about the way they have been treated.

                      I think that your implication that he is making stuff up because he lost his seat has been fairly blown out of the water at this point…

                      You can keep expressing ‘your opinion’ yet at least anyone else reading can see that you are not really basing your opinion on any evidence that indicates your opinions are simply lacking foundation. At least people can see that your opinions are just based a ‘hunch’ (aka grudge?), or, as I suggested earlier, the common garden spin you have been fed.

                      I’d watch that susceptibility to spin, if I were you.

                    • McFlock

                      No weka, I want the evidence. Electoral fraud is a big deal. So, let Hone back up his claims.

                      I think that the problem is that you want you to have the evidence. Now. Forget going through the appropriate process for such issues, forget the fact that the judge is currently considering the issues and will release the decision in due course, you want the evidence in your hands right now.

                      Even though it would have absolutely no effect on the electoral process (and probably your opinion and desire to express that opinion without any evidence) if that actually occurred.

                    • wekarawshark

                      I don’t think 101 is that interested in evidence unless it supports his own views.

                      I read the link though, thanks 🙂

                    • Picard101

                      Blue, it is all hearsay.

                      Proof please. Hard, solid proof, electoral commission findings perhaps when Hone raised this concern? Did he make an official complaint? Was there an investigation? If so what were the findings?

                      I think that that sort of thing might have made the news. Yes?

                      So, while you and others may claim that there is more to see, that just does not seem to stack up at this point.

                    • blue leopard

                      Picard 101,

                      I suggest that you read McFlock’s contributions to this conversation for the answers to some of those questions you posed after he wrote the comment that answers them. [Erhem]

                      I also suggest that some of the answers to your questions are in the link I provided about 1/2 an hour ago @ 11.07pm

                      @weka I’m so glad someone read the link, it would appear pretty clear someone else hasn’t 🙂

                    • wekarawshark

                      Broken record, won’t listen to anyone else, just keeps saying the same thing over and over again.

                      Still haven’t realised your demands are irrelevant?

                    • Picard101

                      Yes Blue, he contacted electoral supervisors, but never laid a complaint with the commission. A situation as serious as electoral fraud and he never laid a complaint. Rather odd really. Poor judgement perhaps?

                      And no, my questions have not been answered with solid proof. Just a lot of second hand information.

                      Sorry, nothing in this thread comes even close to conclusive proof. Guess we just have to now wait and see what the judge says. Somehow I do not think I will be surprised by the findings.

                      [lprent: “..never laid a complaint with the commission..”.

                      The people affected have to lay the complaints. At this point we don’t know how many if any have.

                      Hone’s allegations are directed at the Electoral Commission and their employees.

                      Perhaps you should read the electoral act. A petition may be made before the court, It is effectively a civil case, which means that he has to fund it. Something that an unemployed MP who isn’t a lawyer would not usually do. The only ex-MP I can recall doing these was Peters, who is of course a lawyer.

                      I don’t like the pwned / owned stupidity that you are using demanding a particular result, ignoring others explaining why it is impossible, and then claiming victory.

                      It is a mindless flamewar starter. Read the policy for the next two weeks. Banned. ]

                    • Picard101

                      Not irrlevent Weka. Pointless because there is no proof is there.

                      But despite requests that I must keep changing my views on a given topic (on the hour if one poster is catered to) oddly enough I tend to hold fast to my views unless valid evidence that a change is required is presented. An odd quirk for some to accept I know, but there you go. I just have this bad habit of standing by my convictions.

                    • blue leopard

                      @Picard 101

                      Could have sworn that I read hours ago Weka saying one would have to wait for the outcome, but am not looking around for that comment to link to it. For sure, that is what McFlock was relaying.

                      Glad you have absorbed something.

                      Thank goodness for small mercies.

                      There has been evidence provided that Hone was airing concerns prior to the election. This indicates that your view that Hone was making the complaint due to his loss is quite incorrect. You appear to still be holding such beliefs , despite the fact that it has been shown he was voicing concerns prior to the loss, and therefore you have proven that you do not shift your views in the face of valid evidence.

                      [Weka, very prophetic]

                    • McFlock

                      Guess we just have to now wait and see what the judge says.

                      Finally he gets the point.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Some fucker Picard is looking for “conclusive proof” on the interwebs and declaring it a win if it doesn’t materialise. LOL

                    • Picard101

                      Yes “WE” will have t wait for what the judge says.

                      I, on the other hand, don’t. I already have a very strong suspicion of the outcome. And it will not be to your liking.

                      Oh and as for Weka’s comment, the fact that no complaint was made to the commision over this, despite his concerns, just makes his chest thumping now look 2 faced. And again, I say I do not believe he asked for the recount for purely altruistic reasons. If anything his actions before the election (or inaction) strengthens this view.

                    • McFlock

                      lol

                      So when picard says “we”, they means “you”.
                      The other option is that a brief moment of clarity has now been scabbed over by picard’s belief in their ability to gain knowledge based on absolutely no evidence. Because “they” (meaning “picard”) don’t need to wait for the judge’s decision, apparently.

                    • blue leopard

                      @ McFlock & CV

                      chortle 😆

  8. Ad 8

    Harawera is a Faust who sold his soul to the Devil and paid for it.

    • wekarawshark 8.1

      Not everyone lives in a world of Christian sin and punishment.

      • greywarshark 8.1.1

        I loved the bit about the world’s small est violin to accompany the wails of the bewildered and misunderstood.

        And a quote that says it all from the mouth above.
        9 October 2014 at 11:58 pm
        Yes “WE” will have t wait for what the judge says.
        I, on the other hand, don’t. I already have a very strong suspicion of the outcome.

    • Chooky 8.2

      ?….explain yourself

    • adam 8.3

      I really hate the shallow theology of some, the gospels are a message of hope – not an excuse for you to be a vile hateful little soul. May I recommend Ad, you go back and read the New Testament again – it shows from your comment you have not, or you have been listening to preachers who have not. As you missed the essential messages of goodwill to all and loving one another.

      • Ad 8.3.1

        Stop your pleading and go back and read Goethe.
        Harawera knows it. Bradford knew it and decided the sale of political principle wasn’t worth it.
        Even that idiot on Thedailyblog knows it.
        They sold themselves out, and traded down.

        • adam 8.3.1.1

          This is a different issue – but stick with your vitriol – it looks so good on you.

        • Murray Rawshark 8.3.1.2

          He didn’t sell his soul. If there was any sin, he was perhaps a little opportunistic. He, and others, were offered an opportunity that could have gained more representation and a bit more of a voice for the dispossessed of our country. It didn’t work, but Mana will keep going. They are much more than an electoral party, and will learn from this.

    • greywarshark 8.4

      By now anyone who’s anyone knows the name is spelt Harawira.

  9. Tiger Mountain 9

    This is a good time to shine light on the disproportionate amount of disallowed ‘specials’ in Māori electorates. The rules are there to be used so good on Hone and Mana Movement for taking the opportunity.

    My partner served at two polling booths in the Far North in recent elections. On one occasion the chief clerk did not even unpack the Māori roll by opening time. Several Māori seat voters were confused–the name of “their” candidate was not on the papers–general seat–given to them. The clerk reluctantly did her duty on prompting and gave my partner the evils all day. The trend around Doubtless Bay was booths staffed by farmers wives and retired torys some seeming to have no time for the existence of Te Tai Tokerau.

    The reaction from the usual suspects to the Mana challenge highlight again the racist remnants that continue to haunt this country.

    • Jenk 9.1

      Yes – I’ve heard similar stories, Tiger Mountain. Racism is well and truly embedded in this country and it comes out like these instances you mention at election time.
      That’s why Hone put forward the request for a recount – to try and highlight these instances where it happens, and to try and ensure it doesn’t happen again.

    • wekarawshark 9.2

      hope you don’t mind TM, but I quoted your comment at Pundit,

      http://www.pundit.co.nz/content/hones-last-stand#comment-39782

      • Tiger Mountain 9.2.1

        No worries, I can back up what I claim if needs be, it seems that Mana got some declarations off people prior to the recount and review.

    • Pawsharkial 9.3

      I seem to recall that the disallowed specials rate in the 2013 Ikaroa-Rāwhiti by-election was an astonishing 52%. It’s not the easiest data to locate on the EC site, so let’s go with the 2011 election results (party votes):

      http://www.electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2011/e9/html/e9_part10_1.html

      In General seats, the rate of disallowed specials was an average of 7.3%, in Māori seats this soared to 17.1%. In specific electorates, the disparity was even more salient; Dunedin North had 3%, Ikaroa-Rāwhiti 22.3%; Epsom 4.5%, Waiariki 20.7%. Also, the average rate of informal specials was disproportionately greater in Māori electorates at 2.1% versus 0.7% in General electorates. Then of course there’s the turnout rate difference between General and Māori electorates

      The thing that really surprised me about this recount was that it was only for the Te Tai Tokerau candidate vote. It’s not like the the IMPs have anything to lose at this point, why didn’t they go full-on and demand a party vote recount, plus candidate in all Māori electorates?

    • Murray Rawshark 9.4

      +1 TM
      I think we’ve seen one of those racist remnants posting at great length above.

  10. Andrew Welsh 10

    Hang on, in the post you used the words “mistreated” and Hone was reported to have used the words “racism”. It’s difficult to believe that the recount was nothing other than “sour grapes”, even though by law he was entitled to a recount (backed up by his refusal to front up following the election)

  11. Rodel 11

    Hone should now join the Labour party and stand as a list candidate. After all they have similar objectives and the people of Te Tai Tokerau want Labour representation.
    Dunno about his mum though… Oh why not? We need a bit of fire.

  12. In Vino 12

    “None so blind as those who will not see.”

    ‘Will’ in this case meaning ‘want to’, and ‘those’ being the right-wingers who are determined to cry sour grapes.

    Despite Hone’s lapses into foul language, etc., I respect him as having ideals and a bigger vision than the ‘Self Self Self’ ideology of right-wingers. He was NOT trying to win the seat with the recount. (I am repeating what you have already been told.)

    To use a biblical expression, critics of Hone need to think about the plank in their own eye.

    A very thick plank.

    And I am Pakeha, even if the term may have been derived from ‘Bugger you’.

  13. Ray 13

    Well I have a lot of time for Hone, I can almost forgive him for his WMF comment and he represents a genuine underclass. Interesting his vote went up compared with 2011
    The look on his face as the results came in told you all you needed to know at his sorrow and loss of mana
    He will come back
    Stand tall

  14. The Lone Haranguer 14

    Well Im still disappointed that Hone didnt get back to Parliament.

    Sure I was disappointed that he sold out to the German (my opinion only) but still reckon we need him saying the stuff he was saying. He will have to do that from outside Parliament now.

    Its now up to the rest of the Left to ether support his “Feed the poor” deal or if thats off the table, then one of the opposition parties needs to draft a duplicate of it and call it their own with some help from Hone. 🙂

    And then you parties of the Left can practise working together for the next three years and at the 2017 polls, people will understand that you are collegial and not competitors, and that you want the best for everyone.

    I might be a bit to the right for some of you, but that doesnt mean that I cant support what Hone was doing.

    • GregJ 14.1

      Out of interest why do you refer to (I assume) Kim Dotcom as “the German” rather than by his legal name (or even his birth name Kim Schmitz)? There are 12,945 New Zelanders born in Germany according to the last census and over 200 000 New Zealanders who can claim German ancestry. Do you refer to them as “The German” when you talk about them? And one in four people living in New Zealand was born outside the country – do you make a habit of referring to them by the country they were born in as well?

      Is there some significance of his German nationality I’m unaware of? And why does that take precedence over his Finnish nationality?

      As a New Zealander who has German ancestry on both sides (albeit a few generations back) I’m curious as to why this is somehow relevant? Is there something wrong with being German that I don’t know about?

  15. Dont worry. Be happy 15

    So why is it exactly that polling place staff can enroll people right up to election day but come the day itself, they pull a swifty i.e. when the person comes intending to vote, which is their right in a democracy, the staff hand them a special vote, if their name does not appear on the roll…the voter duly votes, perhaps feeling a little “special” but the vote will be disallowed.

    That is a dirty trick. And it works against the poor who move around from pillar to post.

    If there were more than 29,000 disallowed votes in TTT, one electorate…most of them disallowed due to not being enrolled…how many in the whole country? 100,000? 200,000? Forget abiut the missing million voters for a minute and think about the bamboozled hundreds of thousands!

    This is dodgy as….and has been for many elections. It must be changed. People are being tricked. If voters continue to be fobbed off with “special vote ballot papers” then the only conclusions that can be drawn are that elections in NZ are rigged and those who should damn well kick up a fuss….the media, lawyers, academics, judges…havent so far….So who benefits?

    • Picard101 15.1

      If their name is not on the roll on election day, they cannot vote as I understand it.

      And frankly, too bad. If they cannot be bothered to get things sorted before election day, given the massive effort that is put in to get people to enroll, then those people should miss out on voting. Rights come with responsibilities. It is each voters responsibility to ensure they are enrolled so they can exercise their right to vote.

      If anything all this highlights the need for civics to be taught in schools. Educate people on how the electoral system works, their rights, their responsibilities, because I strongly suspect that if we were to dig into this as deeply as we should, we would find most of these disallowed votes are because of voter error. Not some sort of racist conspiracy theory to keep Hone out of office.

      • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 15.1.1

        some sort of racist conspiracy theory

        You have the cheek to carry on with “racist conspiracy” by kicking that off at 6:16pm, here at 9:22pm, and then banging on at it again at 9:30pm!

        • Picard101 15.1.1.1

          My goodness how evil of me again.

          I will remember in future to change my opinion on a subject every hour on the hour. Must not be consistent, must flip flop. Got it.

          Does that meet with your approval? Or are there other pointless made up rules you need to impart to me?

      • Picard has decided to eliminate people who are slack with mail, and haven’t passed their civics class in school. Who else do you wanna exclude?

        people without land ?
        peepul what dont read good ?
        people without a penis ?

        • Picard101 15.1.2.1

          There is being slack and then there is being lazy. I make no apology. If you cannot be bothered to accept the responsibility, then don’t cry about not being able to exercise the right.

          • McFlock 15.1.2.1.1

            “Rights” aren’t negotiable or contingent upon meeting some bureaucratic hurdle. Otherwise they’d be “privileges”.

            Why don’t we design the system around the people, rather than arbitrarily requiring people to conform to the system?

            • Picard101 15.1.2.1.1.1

              People were given a huge amount of time to get themselves on the roll. There was a massive drive by the commission, and political parties across a wide range of mediums to get people signed up and out to vote. How much more time do you want to give them to get off their backsides and post a letter, or use the net to register? Do we need to send people door to door and have someone collect the letter and post it for them?

              It is a person’s responsibility to make sure they are enrolled to vote. And it is not a hurdle, it is not a massive undertaking. It is a very very simple thing to do.

              It is pure laziness if you are not on the roll, or by design – I know a few who are not on the roll for one reason or another by choice.

              I do not understand why people pander to those who are too lazy to undertake such a simple act.

              • McFlock

                Let me put it this way:

                If a business said that customers could only by a product if they filled in a form and registered for the company transaction card, and they couldn’t get one at the time of purchase, then that’s the business’ choice. But if the business then found they were losing customers that way, the business would demand a better system.

                Anyone can buy anything with legal tender, but businesses have eftpos for those customers who don’t want to use cash.

                Now, some small business owners might say that customers who want one or the other are morons, and don’t deserve to shop at that store. But they’d be the idiots, because their objective is to maximise the number of customers.

                Our objective is to maximise the number of voters, no? So shouldn’t the system be tailored to the citizens, not the other way around?

                • Picard101

                  And in what way is the current system not?

                  There has to be a check on who has voted to avoid fraud. So, you have to have a roll.

                  You have to give people time to get on the roll, and plenty of opportunities/methods to do so. Which there is.

                  Those who cannot vote on the day, must be given a chance to have their vote count, and there is a system in place to ensure this.

                  There has to be a multitude of places to cast your vote on election day to ensure maximum opportunity to access a polling station – which is what happens now. To the point of political parties sending out vans to collect voters and take them to a polling booth.

                  So, in what way are people not able to get onto the roll and in what way are they being prevented from voting? (And no, Hone’s claims do not count as he himself could not muster the desire to lay an official complaint over them before he lost his seat).

                  • McFlock

                    And in what way is the current system not?

                    Because apparently some people wished to vote on the day, and could not.

                    It’s a fairly self-explanatory problem.

              • Some people’s lives are dysfunctional and chaotic. They often can’t physically get to a polling booth, hence offers of transport in areas like Mangere.

                Clearly these are undesirable people and their democratic rights should be ignored, right Picard?

      • trendy lefty 15.1.3

        Do you live in the north? I have (white, farming, tory) family up there and believe me, I find it quite believable that tory types working in polling booths would do everything they could to get Maori votes disallowed. You can keep your wee head buried in the sand and pretend that there is not any systemic racism in New Zealand, but, how would you know? Have you ever suffered the effects of racism? Maori have and do, Hone Harawira knows it and it is his mission to do something about it.

        Mr Harawira isn’t prosecuting a criminal, so he doesn’t need “hard evidence”, he was acting as a still-encumbent MP in a Maori electorate listening to the concerns of his constituents and taking a sensible step to to address those concerns – as he clearly stated. If you have any interest in how a recount is a good way to investigate those issues, have a look online for the judgement issued after the recount in Waitakere in 2011. It is probably the best, cheapest and most thorough avenue available to investigate whether disallowed votes were disallowed properly or improperly.

        You can blather on about teaching civics all you like, but for a lot of people, school and politics have no meaning because they are aprt of a system stacked against them from the start. You can deny it all you like if it makes you feel more comfortable, but, really, who gives a fuck what you think?

        You know you are reading a loser when they start whining “I have the right to voice my opinion”. Sure, you do, but your opinion is dumb.

      • Murray Rawshark 15.1.4

        You’ve learned all the RWNJ memes pretty well. You have constructed quite a view straw men here and shown an incredible inability to comprehend anything. Are you either (1) a National MP, or (2) a chook with it’s head cut off?

        Shit, could also be (3) both.
        You come across as a nasty racist prick, Prickard101. And bloody boring as well.

  16. Parliament has lost a lot of mana with the departure of Hone Harawira; the only politician who spoke purely for the underclass in Aotearoa New Zealand. My (pakeha) relatives living up North have warmed up to him as a man of integrity.

    Politics is the art of compromise, and Hone attempted to further the cause of his beloved Te Tai Tokerau by leveraging the wealth and publicity of DotCom.

    A few wavering (probably Auckland-based) voters had a natural aversion to the Bond-villainesque KDC, and we had the grotesque display of National politicians endorsing Kelvin Davis. What a farce. Hone will return, he is revered in places like Kaikohe which have missed out on Key’s “brighter future”.

    • wekarawshark 16.1

      “Parliament has lost a lot of mana with the departure of Hone Harawira”

      +1.

      It’s sad that so many people are afraid of him.

      • This is why I think Hone is a good fulla.. http://www.openbible.info/topics/poor_people

        Matthew 6:24 ESV
        “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

        Matthew 5:3
        “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

        Proverbs 29:7
        A righteous man knows the rights of the poor; a wicked man does not understand such knowledge.

        Luke 6:20-21
        And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. “Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you shall be satisfied. “Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh.

        Matthew 25:35-40
        For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
        […]
        ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

        Psalm 140:12
        I know that the Lord will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and will execute justice for the needy.

        James 5:1-6
        Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter.

        Micah 6:8
        He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

        Isaiah 58:6-12
        “Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the straps of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh? Then shall your light break forth like the dawn, and your healing shall spring up speedily; your righteousness shall go before you; the glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard. Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer; you shall cry, and he will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you take away the yoke from your midst, the pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness, if you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday.

  17. North 17

    Oh Picard……..all is not lost. You do at least have two things left – your tut tut tutting about diction and your pomposity.

    • Picard101 17.1

      That and my annoying habit of standing by what I say. I know how frustrating it is for some on here that I refuse to flip flop without actual evidence of the claims being made.

      How naughty of me.

      • Not naughty, just a bit ignorant. Could be dangerous if you hang around here too long, you might actually learn stuff.

        • Picard101 17.1.1.1

          How is it ignorant to refuse to accept the view of the loudest voices on here based on nothing but the wind?

          • wekarawshark 17.1.1.1.1

            says the commenter whose just overloaded the thread with demands for the past half day 🙄

            • Picard101 17.1.1.1.1.1

              Oh, I am sorry. I had no idea there was a limit on how many replies to posts one was allowed. Another one of my bad habits. Answering when spoken to.

              So sorry not to have ignored you after your second or third post. Although that said, it seems you share this habit.

  18. Dont worry. Be happy 18

    I am not making my point clearly enough. Sorry. Try again…..

    I have worked in polling places many times. I know how lacking in confidence some people are….for those who can read easily, who are used to dealing with forms and “officials”….no problem. For the others, the opposite….it is an ordeal. You want to know why people dont vote? Many fear looking foolish. Something that has happened many times in their lives in similar contexts. Like all human beings they shy away from events with predicatably negative connotations. And you do not need me to tell you which class has lower levels of reading skills and lower levels of confidence when faced with officialdom.

    When they summon up the courage to go to vote (this is no exaggeration remember, courage) and they dont appear on the roll of the electorate they think they live in, they should be enrolled on the spot in that electorate and the vote they then cast should be counted.

    Instead they are given a “special” vote…and their vote is later disallowed…thousands of them.

    Call that ballot paper what it is when it is given to that voter….a Claytons vote, the one you get when youre not getting a vote. At least then people would not be under the false impression that they have voted. I dare you!

    Or put the extra people in polling places on election day and keep enrolling people so that their votes are counted and their voices are heard.

    So what if it costs more money to keep enrolling throughout the election process?

    So what if we have to wait longer for the election results?

    Because the present situation…. if it is not rascism it looks a lot like it.

    • GregJ 18.1

      Thanks for this.

      It is very easy to underestimate the institutional barriers (let alone casual and institutional racism) that make what should be a very basic and ostensibly simple act of exercising a democratic right something that for some is a painful and often frightening experience.

      And then multiply that again when it is something more complex when dealing with governmental institutions.

  19. Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 19

    This morning’s update

    A good statement from Hone:
    http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/positive-result-recount-harawira/5/204418

    Note:
    “On another note … there are still a number of issues affecting Maori voting which still need to be addressed, including polling booths without Maori roll voting papers; Maori people being turned away because their name wasn’t on the roll; Maori people being turned away because they didn’t have their ‘easy vote’ card; Maori people being told they can’t cast a special vote; Maori people being told they can’t vote at certain polling booths; Maori people being told to wait while Pakeha voters were served first; Maori people being told they have to travel more than 40kms to vote; Maori people not being offered assistance to vote; and Maori people having their identity questioned because of their many names. I hope to follow these issues up through other avenues in the weeks ahead.”

  20. RRM 20

    Of course it didn’t “backfire”… he got another couple of weeks’ salary and free airfares all over the country to visit the whanau, he said so himself on air. You’re welcome Hone.

    • blue leopard 20.1

      So you are not concerned at all over the issues Hone raised on behalf of the people who expressed concerns over disturbing treatment at the polling stations to him?

  21. RRM 21

    Blue leopard – not at all concerned.

    The allegations of someone who talks about “white motherfuckers” are not worth reading.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 21.1

      Anyone who’s been elected to Parliament has a voice much louder and more credible than yours.

      Sincerely, choke on it,.

    • blue leopard 21.2

      @RRM

      So basically, you don’t know what the serious issues are that Hone raised, and have dismissed him prior to posting – so you simply came onto the thread to spew venom.

      If you didn’t like Mr Harawira sounding off, why do you do the same?

      Mr Harawira had good reasoning and intent behind what he said.

      Where is yours?

    • wekarawshark 21.3

      RRM, are you the RRM from Kiwiblog?

    • greywarshark 21.4

      RRM
      I don’t like the words you refer to which I know that Hone said. However they have actually been in films on tv and have got into the language of some people, and can slip out even when a person has decided not to use them. Hone apologised for that use which was, I understand in an email to a co-worker when he was expressing his feelings in private or so he thought.

      Now the sort of poisonous thoughts that you come out with are also inclined to be absorbed into the mind and lodge there. You should relearn your approach to other people in society and stop denigrating people who are working to improve and have a better society.

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    To Protect and Serve: When the Prime Minister finds herself enmeshed in the coils of a full-blown political scandal, her colleagues and party comrades have only one priority: to release her as swiftly – and with as little lasting injury – as possible. Is this what Jacinda Ardern’s colleagues and ...
    3 days ago
  • The rot at the top.
    When military leaders cover up and lie to elected civilian authorities, the foundation of democratic civil-military relations is undermined because it is those authorities who are entrusted to hold the military accountable to the public that they mutually serve. But this is only true if civilian political authorities take their ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    3 days ago
  • Challenging the voting age in court
    The Make It 16 campaign to lower the voting age is launching this afternoon, and they have already announced plans to challenge the law in court:The campaign, named "Make it 16" will launch at Parliament on Friday, with plans to take their case to the High Court, testing the rights ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Israel’s elections herald a long siesta
    by Daphna Whitmore The long years of Netanyahu’s reign are drawing to an end. For years he has epitomized reactionary zionism as he oversaw hundreds of thousands of Jewish settlers seize land in the West Bank. There are now 700,000 settlers, putting an end to the myth that Israel was ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    3 days ago
  • Petrol companies promise prices will come back down once peace is restored to the Middle East
    BP, Z and Mobil all insist that petrol price hikes are temporary, “in a very literal sense.” The nation’s major petrol providers are trying to allay customer fears over prices, promising that they’ll move to lower them again “immediately” when the Middle East is returned to its formerly peaceful state. ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    3 days ago
  • All Blacks unveil boat for Rugby World Cup 2019
    South African coach Rassie Erasmus says he has no idea what they’re going to do about the boat. In a highly anticipated press conference this afternoon, All Blacks coach Steve Hansen has finally unveiled the team’s boat for its Rugby World Cup 2019 campaign. In a press conference that went ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    3 days ago
  • An increasingly shoddy coverup
    The Operation Burnham inquiry continued to question senior NZDF staff today, and their shoddy coverup over their knowledge of civilian casualties continue to fall apart. If you recall, first, we were asked to believe that it was all a series of "mistakes and errors": a senior officer with multiple degrees ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • If we are to avoid making the earth uninhabitable, we need to rapidly decarbonise our civilisation, and cut emissions to zero as quickly as possible. This seems like an impossible task, but its not. Pushing hard on a few technologies and trends will let us halve emissions in a decade:Greenhouse ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • A further attack on transparency
    The Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill (No 2) had part of its committee stage yesterday. its a generally tedious bill about the nitty-gritty of local government reorganisation. But it includes a clause making the Local Government Commission subject to the Ombudsmen Act, and hence the OIA. Great! Except of ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Ihumātao and Treaty settlements
    Yesterday Ihumātao's mana whenua reached a consensus that they would like their land back, and asked the government to negotiate with Fletcher's for its return. The government's response? Try and undermine that consensus, while talking about how doing anything would undermine existing Treaty settlements. The first is just more bad ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Protecting our history
    Its Suffrage Day, the 126th anniversary of women winning the right to vote (but not stand in elections) in New Zealand. And to celebrate, the government has bought Kate Sheppard's house in Christchurch:The government has bought Kate Sheppard's former home in Christchurch for more than $4 million. The Ilam villa ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Climate Change: Ostracising the coal-burners
    The UN climate summit is happening in new York next week, and unlike previous years, coal-burners and denier-states are not being invited to speak:Leading economies such as Japan and Australia will not be invited to speak at next week’s crunch UN climate change summit, as their continued support for coal ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Jojo Tamihere Salutes Herr Goff.
    Get Back Jojo! The elation in Mayor Phil Goff’s camp may be easily imagined as they watched social media light up in indignation at challenger John Tamihere’s "Sieg Heil to that" quip. Just when JT’s notoriously right-wing, sexist and homophobic stains were beginning to fade back into his ‘colourful’ past, ...
    4 days ago
  • Hard News: A fun but flawed weed documentary
    Patrick Gower is good value when he's high. Not that I've ever, you know, got stoned with him. But in the second part of his documentary Patrick Gower on Weed, he does what you'd expect in a modern weed documentary and immerses himself – first with a doctor, then a ...
    4 days ago
  • Candidate Survey: Western Bay of Plenty – Local Body Elections 2019
    We surveyed candidates on their attitudes to issues facing the Western Bay Region, find out what they think: “Closing the Gap” Tauranga, one of the area groups of Income Equality Aotearoa NZ Inc., has surveyed all candidates in the three local body elections to discover attitudes to some basic issues ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    4 days ago
  • Project Nettie calls on scientists to defend biology
    Please spread widely, and sign, to support science and rationalism over the new irrationalism sweeping universities and institutions.  PROJECT NETTIE Sexual reproduction, the generation of offspring by fusion of genetic material from two different individuals, evolved over 1 billion years ago. It is the reproductive strategy of all higher animals ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    4 days ago
  • I’m glad I don’t live in Auckland
    Just when I was thinking that Palmerston North's mayoral race (which includes a convicted child molester / public wanker and a convicted child beater) was the worst in the country, Auckland mayoral candidate John Tamihere opened his mouth:Auckland mayoral candidate John Tamihere is being slammed for using the words "sieg ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Index of Power Update, 2018-19: China #2
    We reprint below an article from the excellent website the Economics of Imperialism by Tony Norfield This is an update of the statistics for my Index of Power, using data for 2018-19 and discussing what a country’s ranking reflects. The major change is that China’s rank has shifted up and ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    5 days ago
  • Climate Change: A history lesson
    Why is New Zealand climate change policy so crap? The Herald this morning has a long article on the twists and turns of climate change policy in New Zealand [paywalled / depaywall script], which shows where we've been. The short version is that the government first began worrying about this ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • What the All Blacks Mean to Us
    The All Blacks have been, for more than a century, arguably the most successful International sports team in the world. But they are more than that; even for those Kiwis who are immune to the charms of rugby (and there are more than a few), the All Blacks are ambassadors ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    5 days ago
  • No one is born into the wrong body
    A short and incredibly powerful speech from a young lesbian woman. No one is born in the wrong body. ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    5 days ago
  • Contempt
    Back in June, the UK Court of Appeal ruled that that country's continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia were unlawful. So you'd expect that the UK government stopped approving them, right?Of course not:The government has apologised for breaching a court ruling against the sale of weapons to Saudi Arabia that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Covering up the cover-up
    Yesterday NZDF officials were put on the stand about the lies they had told over Operation Burnham, making implausible claims that it was all a big mistake. But along the way, we learned they had already been put on the spot about it by a previous Defence Minister, who had ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Not as important as they think they are
    Farmers have been whining a lot lately, about the methane targets in the Zero Carbon Bill, about Canterbury's proposed nitrogen limits, and about the government's new proposals to stop them from shitting in our lakes and rivers. These policies are "throwing farmers under the tractor", they will force farmers off ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • Behind Every Good Woman Should Stand – Another Good Woman.
    Alone, Alone, All, All, Alone: To argue that the Prime Minister is the victim of her advisers’ failure to keep her informed may offer Jacinda some measure of exoneration – but only at the cost of casting her as a hopeless political ingénue. A star-dusted muppet, whose only purpose is to ...
    6 days ago
  • Poor quality, poorly educated kiddie ‘Journalists’ spreading fake news
    In times of hysteria about the “World coming to an end” and “rising sea levels” so-called ‘Journalists’ who can barely spell words longer than four letters are having a ball! Though the majority of the Public have worked out that manmade climate change is nothing short of pseudo-science, and the ...
    An average kiwiBy admin@averagekiwi.com
    6 days ago
  • Chris Trotter on the BFD
    I don't want to give pblicity to certain parts of the internet that are better left to fester in their own irrelevance (I know, a bit like this place) but the listing of Chris Trotter as a 'author' on Cameron Slater's spinoff website, the BFD requires some explanation.Now, I don't ...
    6 days ago
  • Sex is not a spectrum
    The text below is a Twitter thread by Heather Heying that explains the essence of sexual reproduction and it long evolutionary history. She is an evolutionary biologist and a “professor-in-exile” after she and her husband, Bret Weinstein, stood up to supporters of an enforced “Day of Absence” for white staff and teachers ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    6 days ago
  • Climate Change: Trees, aviation, and offsets
    With crunch time for new Zealand climate policy approaching, most of the New Zealand media have got on board with a global reporting effort to cover the issue. There's one strand of stories today about polling and what it shows about changing public attitudes to the crisis, but the strand ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • Pissing-Off The Israelis Is A High-Risk Strategy.
    Dangerous Foes: For those readers of Bowalley Road who feel disposed to dismiss any prospect of an Israeli destabilisation of New Zealand politics, the example of the United Kingdom repays close attention. Ever since the election of Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the British Labour Party, the Israelis have sanctioned, funded and ...
    6 days ago
  • Something to go to in Wellington
    Make It 16, the youth-led campaign to lower New Zealand's voting age, is holding an official campaign launch at Parliament this Friday from 16:30. If you'd like to attend, you can register using EventBrite here. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • A founding member responds to Peace Action Wellington
    by Don Franks It was a lovely sunny Wellington afternoon with blue skies above  the beaches.  In Courtenay Place, political activists packed out a stuffy upstairs room for an important meeting. The assembled pacifists, anarchists, communists and independent young radicals of Peace Action Wellington felt the need for a mission ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    7 days ago
  • “Mistakes and errors”
    Current and former NZDF top brass are being publicly grilled this week by the hit and run inquiry over their public responses to allegations of civilian casualties. Previously, they've claimed there were no casualties, a position which led them to lie to Ministers and to the public. Now, they're saying ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • “Homosexuality is same-sex attraction and relationships, not heterosexuals with delusions of gende...
    by Rafael D. Quiles (gender-critical gay man from Puerto Rico) The writing on the wall is right in people’s faces and people just don’t see it or don’t want to. What could actually possess a heterosexual male to want to feminize himself and claim that he is a lesbian? Because ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Trump: “Where’s my favourite dictator?”
    From the Wall Street Journal:Inside a room of the ornately decorated Hotel du Palais during last month’s Group of Seven summit in Biarritz, France, President Trump awaited a meeting with Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al Sisi. Mr. Trump looked over a gathering of American and Egyptian officials and called out in ...
    1 week ago
  • Magdalen Burns, 1983-2019, fighter for women’s liberation
    by the Redline blog collective At Redline we are very saddened to hear of the death of Magdalen Burns who passed away on the morning of Friday, September 13 (British time). Magdalen was a great fighter for the rights of women in general and lesbian women in particular, a defender ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Parliament and the Executive
    The Brexit issue has certainly brought with it a series of apparently difficult constitutional issues, many of them concerning the respective roles of the executive and parliament. Most of them arise because of the unwillingness of MPs, despite their professions to the contrary, to be bound by a constitutional rarity ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • The Abigail Article; Martyn Bradbury’s Article, and My Response
    . . This blogpost is different to my usual format of reporting on issues… Since July 1011, I have blogged on a variety of political issues; near always political and/or environmental; mostly highly critical of the previous National Government. Other issues included Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands and repression of ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    1 week ago
  • Police will have to wear silly Buckingham Palace hats from now on, says Police Minister
    Those close to the Police Minister believe the initiative may be the result of Nash “seeing a great deal” on AliExpress. In a move that comes seemingly out of nowhere, Police Minister Stuart Nash announced this afternoon that he expects all frontline staff to don bearskin hats, famously worn by ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • A sensible crackdown
    The government has released its Arms Legislation Bill, containing the second tranche of changes to gun laws following the March 15 massacre. And it all looks quite sensible: a national gun register, higher penalties for illegal possession and dealing, tighter restrictions on arms dealers and shooting clubs, and a shorter ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • California bans private prisons
    Private prisons are a stain on humanity. Prison operators explicitly profit from human misery, then lobby for longer prisons terms so they can keep on profiting. And in the US, prison companies run not only local and state prisons, but also Donald Trump's immigration concentration camps. Faced with this moral ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Why PPPs are a bad idea
    When National was in power, they were very keen on Public-Private Partnerships (PPPs) - basicly, using private companies to finance public infrastructure as a way of hiding debt from the public. They were keen on using them for everything - roads, schools, hospitals. But as the UK shows, that "service" ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • A Movement That No Longer Moves.
    Moving And Shaking: There was a time when people spoke matter-of-factly about the “labour movement” – a political phenomenon understood to embrace much more than the Labour Party. Included within the term’s definition was the whole trade union movement – many of whose members looked upon the Labour Party as ...
    1 week ago
  • NZ ‘left’ politically embracing extreme postmodernism
    by Philip Ferguson Much of the left, even people who formally identify as marxists, have collapsed politically in the face of postmodern gender theory of the sort pioneered by American philosopher Judith Butler. For Butler even biological sex is socially constructed. “If the immutable character of sex is contested, perhaps ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • The obvious question
    The media is reporting that the (alleged) Labour party sexual assaulter has resigned from their job at Parliament, which means hopefully he won't be turning up there making people feel unsafe in future. Good. But as with everything about this scandal, it just raises other questions. Most significantly: why the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • The moment I found out that you found out, I acted swiftly
    By Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern I am every bit as angry as you are. I am every bit as disappointed as you must be. The people with power, oversight and the ability to do something about these processes within the Labour Party should be ashamed. Whoever those people are, I ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • This is why people hate property developers
    Property developers think there is an "oversupply" of houses in Auckland:High turnover rates and falling prices may be a sign that there are too many new houses going in to some parts of Auckland, commentators say. [...] Property developer David Whitburn said there was a "bit of an oversupply" in ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Australia to Pacific: “Fuck you, you can all drown”
    World leaders are meeting in New York in two weeks for the 2019 Climate Action Summit, where they are expected to announce new and more ambitious targets to stop the world from burning. But the Australian Prime Minister won't be there, despite being in the USA at the time:Scott Morrison ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Implausible ignorance
    Labour Party president Nigel Haworth resigned yesterday over the party's sexual assault scandal. But while that's good news, its unlikely to take away the stench of a coverup. Because according to Paula Bennett in Parliament yesterday, pretty much everyone in the Prime Minister's office was involved as well:I have been ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Labour’s Fatal Flaw.
     Two-Faced? Labour insiders' commitment to the neoliberal status quo puts them at odds with their party’s membership; its trade union affiliates; and a majority of Labour voters, but this only serves to strengthen the perception they have of themselves as a special elite. Among the lesser breeds, they’ll talk up a ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Ten reasons the Tories do NOT want an election
    There has been a lot of talk about Boris Johnson wanting an election, and he has blustered with great gusto about 'chicken' Jeremy Corbyn refusing one, but I think there are many reasons why he is secretly glad he has been refused the opportunity:The Tories are an utter rabble,tearing themselves ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Prorogation Illegal, rule Scottish judges
    Scottish appeal court judges have declared that Boris Johnson’s decision to suspend parliament in the run-up to the October Brexit deadline is unlawful. The three judges, chaired by Lord Carloway, Scotland’s most senior judge, overturned an earlier ruling that the courts did not have the powers to interfere in the prime ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Let me explain what I meant by Everyday New Zealanders
    By Simon Bridges. The following is a press release from the office of Simon Bridges, leader of The National Party. Key ora, New Zealand. Happy Maori Language Week. Look, I’m writing to you today because I want to clear something up. There’s been a lot of kerfuffle around some things ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Yes, the SIS is subject to the Public Records Act
    I understand there's some stuff going round about how the SIS "was removed from the list of public offices covered by the Public Records Act in 2017". The context of course being their records derived from US torture, which will be disposed of or sealed. The good news is that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • An evidence-based discussion of the Canadian fluoride/IQ study
    Dr. Christopher Labos and Jonathan Jarry discuss the recent Canadian fluoride/IQ research. They provide an expert analysis of the paper and its problems. Click on image to go to podcast. The critical debate about the recent ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Climate Change: Australia in denial
    Australia is burning down again, and meanwhile its natural disaster minister is denying climate change:Australia’s minister responsible for drought and natural disasters, David Littleproud, has said that he doesn’t “know if climate change is manmade”. Clarifying earlier comments that the question is “irrelevant” when considering the Coalition government’s response to ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Philippines activist speaking on the Duterte tyranny
    Auckland Philippines Solidarity is excited to host Professor Judy Taguiwalo for a speaking tour of NZ in September. She is a well-known activist in the Philippines and was a political prisoner under the Marcos dictatorship. Professor Taguiwalo briefly served as a Cabinet member under President Duterte but was forced from ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • Disgust
    I have no special insights to offer on the Labour sexual assault coverup. All I have is disgust. Disgust that an organisation could fail its people so badly. Disgust that they punished the victims rather than the perpetrator. Disgust that its party hacks are apparently blaming the victims for demanding ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Speak Up for Women calls out Greens’ censorship
    This open letter to the Green Party was penned after an opinion piece by Jill Abigail, a feminist and founding member of the party, was censored by the Greens’ leadership. (Redline has reprinted her article here).The intolerance of the Green Party leaders and their acceptance of the misogyny of gender ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • Member’s Day: End of Life Choice, part 3
    Today is a Member's day, and David Seymour's End of Life Choice Bill continues its slow crawl through its committee stage. They're spending the whole day on it today, though the first hour is likely to be spent on voting left over from last time. After that they'll move on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Flight to Los Angeles turned back after passengers decide they don’t want to go anymore
    An ambitious plan to fly to Los Angeles petered out into a brief sight-seeing trip and a desire to return home and get some sleep before work tomorrow. Air New Zealand has confirmed a flight to Los Angeles last night was turned back about a quarter of the way into ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Indigenous Futures: defuturing and futuring – an analytical framework for policy development?
    There appears to be consensus – by omission – that the concept of indigenous futures should be accepted at face value. So I scavenged the internet to see if I could locate an academic descriptor or a framework around how we think about it as a concept, and whether it ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    2 weeks ago
  • Cadbury rumoured to be releasing the Pineapple Trump
    Here’s another novelty chocolate to shove in your gob, New Zealand Cadbury could be seeking to make itself great again with a rumoured new release: Pineapple Trumps, a spin on its classic chocolate-encased pineapple treat and do-it-yourself tooth remover. The global confectionery manufacturer and bumbling “before” character in an infomercial, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • The coming resource war.
    During my time in the Pentagon I had the privilege of sitting down with military leaders and defence and security officials from a variety of Latin American nations. Sometimes I was present as a subordinate assistant to a senior US defence department official, sometimes as part of a delegation that ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    2 weeks ago
  • Māori Language Week with The Civilian
    Kia ora, Aotearoa. It’s that magical time of year. Te Wiki o te Reo Māori. In English, the week that frightens talk radio. As you probably know by now, all your favourite media outlets are participating, some more successfully than others. Stuff has changed its name to Puna for the ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Will Horizons act on climate change?
    Local body elections are coming up next month. And it looks like all Palmerston North candidates for Horizons (the Manawatu-Whanganui Regional Council) want to take action on climate change:Climate change is set to be a key issue in Palmerston North for the next three years if those wanting to get ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • BORA reform is stalled
    Eighteen months ago, the government promised to strengthen the Bill of Rights Act, by explicitly affirming the power of the courts to issue declarations of inconsistency and requiring Parliament to formally respond to them. So how's that going? I was curious, so I asked for all advice about the proposal. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Corbyn and Brexit
    As the Brexit saga staggers on, the focus is naturally enough on the Prime Minister and his attempts to achieve Brexit “do or die”. But the role played by the Leader of the Opposition is of almost equal interest and complexity. The first problem for Jeremy Corbyn is that he ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    2 weeks ago

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