How a National/Green coalition could work

Written By: - Date published: 7:20 am, September 26th, 2017 - 166 comments
Categories: election 2017, greens, national - Tags: ,

I was going to write a post titled Greens rule out National (again and again and again)* but this is way more fun.

I think we should all start talking about James Shaw as PM. Because we’ve had people who should know better spend a year seriously speculating that Peters somehow had the right to demand to be Prime Minister (a selfie kingmaker). So Shaw for PM. Metiria for Chief of Staff.

Standardistas, fill in your suggestions below.

*probably still will tbh, because THE GREENS WILL NEVER GO WITH NATIONAL and apparently this needs explaining and repeating.

166 comments on “How a National/Green coalition could work”

  1. Ross 1

    Jim Bolger was interviewed by John Campbell last night on RNZ. Bolger seriously suggested the Greens go with National because “everyone cares about the environment” or words to that effect. I never knew Bolger was a comedian.

    • Carolyn_nth 1.1

      Bolger said, and unfortunately Campbell reinforced it, basically that the Greens should stick with the REAL GP issues of the environment – just focus on the environment, they’d get more support across the board and could align with the Nats as easily as with Labour. – or words to that effect.

      I tweeted too Campbell and Checkpoint that they check out what is involved in Green politics, suggesting wikipedia as a start point.

      • tracey 1.1.1

        Thing is when people imagined Greens were just an environmental party they rarely pushed 10%.

        Maybe we listen more to the Green Party reps, the members and tge people who voted for them about what they “shoukd” be

    • tracey 1.2

      Bolger admitted he was wrong about a few things including regrets his part in the neo liberal cannabilistic society NZ is today.

    • mosa 1.3

      He is not a comedian , Bolger is just suffering from senility.

  2. mickysavage 2

    Real video of the Greens negotiating a possible coalition with National …

  3. BM 3

    Here’s something to think about

    From 2020 onwards there could only be three parties left.

    National, Labour and the Greens.

    Center right voters only have one choice which is National, they can’t vote Labour and the Greens refuse to go with National so no use voting Green.

    So after 25 years we’re back in an FPP environment, for the sake of MMP the Greens need to start working both sides of the fence otherwise National winning outright from 2020 onwards is highly likely.

    • bwaghorn 3.1

      top got 2% in 10 months they can get to 5 if they keep it up

      • BM 3.1.1

        They might make 5% depends on how much coin Morgan wants to sink into TOP.

        I do get the feeling people have gotten pissed off with the smaller parties holding the country to ransom, the tail wagging the dog.

        Peters will no doubt dick around act the egotistical fuckwit cementing that viewpoint

        • bwaghorn

          they are only getting pissed off because muppet trolls who hate democracy want fpp so lie they and misinform people to try destroy mmp

        • Nic the NZer

          How many percent do you think calling all voters a bunch of selfish pricks was worth? If he keeps that up he will go completely broke well before 5% I would think.

        • tracey

          Please list your evidence of small parties wagging the dog (as opposed to being told they are wagging the dog)

          1. Not the Greens. NEVER done it.

        • Anonymous

          Abolish the party threshold, and make electorates STV.

    • Carolyn_nth 3.2

      Look to Germany – Merkle in the 30% range – that’s the Nats from 2020 onwards – plus with no coalition partners cos they killed them all off, couldn’t afford expensive spin meisters… and they are left with

      Welcome to the desert of the real!

      • tracey 3.2.1

        Labour has to convince about 5% of voters that they can stop hating the poor and beneficiaries. Given some Labour supporters prolly hate beneficiaries…

    • For the sake of the country the ‘centre-right’ need to wake the fuck up to reality and stop voting radical-right National.

    • Nic the NZer 3.4

      Why is it when NZ first is king maker Winston gets to dictate terms to National, but when the Green Party is king maker National makes the terms?

      National can become compatible with a coalition whenever it wants to.

      • tracey 3.4.1

        Yes! Fundamental misunderstanding of negotiation. Winston needs National. National can say no. So can Labour.

        IF NZF get disproportionate concessions that is on the party say YES to power

  4. Brendan 4

    If the Greens work with National, I will change my vote to Labour.

    • BM 4.1

      Why did you vote Green?

      • popexplosion 4.1.1

        Well. Simple the left and right have destroyed the planet.

        Oh, and the other new media lie… line.. that if only the Greens would dump the social agenda they could work with the Nats. Yeah, brilliant turf blossom. Like inequality was some how nothing to do with economic choices of the governed. lol, and worse, that environments aren’t degraded by the poor far more than the wealthy because they are forced by the poverty.

        Burn plastic to keep warm. Eat out of bins and breed next bird flu. Nats are clueless if they think lying the Greens into govt is a public good. Tories start by degrading, so they can continue degrading, they are toxic whether leading the left or right.

  5. tsmithfield 5

    I think the Greens should at least start meaningful negotiations with National, even if that is their least preferred option.

    At the very least then, it strengthens their position in any negotiations with Labour in terms of a Labour/NZFirst/Greens coalition.

    The way it is going at the moment, the Greens look like they will end up being side-lined again in some sort of confidence and supply arrangement, and end up with very little influence.

    The key to strength in a negotiation is to have more than one option on the table.

    Labour should probably do the same by at least exploring the possibility of a grand coalition with National.

    Having these possibilities at least on the table dramatically weakens NZ First’s position, which I think is far too strong at the moment considering their relative support, and the other players on the table.

    • I think the Greens should at least start meaningful negotiations with National, even if that is their least preferred option.

      You think that because you’re too damn stupid to realise that it’s not the least preferred option but an impossible option. National have proven, beyond doubt, that they don’t care for either the environment or the people of NZ.

    • McFlock 5.2

      That’s how tories “negotiate”: strength, dominance, extortion with a smile.

      Normal people tend to go “what do you want? What do I want? How can we make each other happy rather than walking away from each other? Let’s make a fair deal.”

  6. roy cartland 6

    I actually think Jacinda, Marama, Chloe and Golriz, JAG having all the senior roles would be great. Blokes had our chance, look what happened.

    Even if it went off the cliff it would be worth it to see the old lords palpitating. F-f-five women running the country, like it’s the most natural thing in the world! Harrrrumph!

  7. Carolyn_nth 7

    Marama Davidson as Minister for Housing.

    Compulsory buy up of private residential housing in Remmers, Epsom, Upper Harbour and the North Shore. Current residents to be relocated to Papakura, Warkworth, and Omaha.

    Properties in Remmers, Epsom, Upper Harbour and North Shore re-purposed as state housing for those homeless in central, south and west Auckland.

  8. Matt 8

    Hey guys,
    I’m a National party voter (don’t immediately attack me for being an evil selfish racist, I am not), but it might be worth you thinking about this possibility.

    Plenty of conservative Kiwis actually do care about the environment. We don’t buy into social justice warrior issues, but we would be quite happy if National paid more attention to environmental issues.

    Think about it. James Shaw could kill two birds with one stone – end Winston’s stranglehold on MMP and give the Greens a “seat at the table” to actually make change real.

    Again, think about it. Not every “right wing voter” is a capitalist-fascist-millionaire. Plenty of us are middle class voters who have a more nuanced view of things. Just because we didn’t buy into Jacindamania doesn’t mean we can’t hold pro-environment views.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 8.1

      Keep telling yourself that, whilst voting for poisoned rivers, coal mining, commercial development of the conservation estate, sadistic human rights abuse and lies.

    • Carolyn_nth 8.2

      How often does it need to be said, the Green Party and Green politics are not just about the environment, but the way we live in communities within environments. It all hangs together, and the “environment” aspect cannot just be taken from the whole of green politics to suit right wingers.

      Wikipedia on green politics:

      Green politics (also known as ecopolitics[1]) is a political ideology that aims to create an ecologically sustainable society rooted in environmentalism, nonviolence, social justice, and grassroots democracy.

      So the idea of “blue-green” politics is a contradiction in terms.

      I think right wingers might be talking about some kind of blue-brown (of the earth) politics, where they think environmentalism can fit within a right wing, caring capitalist ethos.

      And there’s nothing to stop right wingers doing that within the National Party, or starting their own blue-brown party.

      • marty mars 8.2.1

        Climate change is bigger than purity politics. Think world war response because total effort is needed.

        Edit. I actually haven’t heard 1 convincing argument that they shouldn’t go with the gnats apart from the members would revolt. These the same members who have contributed to us being up shit creek so far that we have to contemplate working with the gnats?

        • Carolyn_nth

          Fine. Happy for right wingers to get on board and put forward their policies. It’s not necessary for them to try to co-opt the GP to do it for them. It’s not necessary for the GP to be part of a Nat-led government for that to happen.

          The GP will listen to any sensible solutions and try to work with them.

          • marty mars

            Good point. I wonder what would be seen as evidence of goodwill and intent from the gnats, for the Green membership. Probably a series of things I’d say.

            Anyway will never happen as everyone says so all good.

        • weka

          “Edit. I actually haven’t heard 1 convincing argument that they shouldn’t go with the gnats apart from the members would revolt. These the same members who have contributed to us being up shit creek so far that we have to contemplate working with the gnats?”

          Wow. Ok, I can see that I will have to write a serious post on this. I think the reasons have been out there enough, but if someone like you is still not getting ti then that is pretty bad.

          “These the same members who have contributed to us being up shit creek so far that we have to contemplate working with the gnats?”

          how so?

      • Ad 8.2.2

        It’s about to happen, again, in Germany.

        The Greens are not going to be dictated to by a dictionary.
        The New Zealand Greens get dictated to by their members. – via their constitution.

    • weka 8.3

      You’re endorsing James Shaw as PM? Excellent. Tell your mates.

      • Matt 8.3.1

        No, but I think he would make an excellent Minister for Climate Change. Again, not everyone who votes National is a Trump-esque climate change denier. Most of us are actually sensible, hard-working, caring individuals who don’t deserve to be tarred with a brush just because our politics don’t line up exactly with yours.

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          It might have something to do with the fact that the policies you vote for destroy people’s lives deliberately.

          Yes, I realise you don’t believe that. Open your fucking eyes.

        • weka

          Not being a Trump-esque climate change denier doesn’t mean that someone is willing to take CC seriously. I would go so far as to say that anyone who voted National last weekend has shown themselves to not care about CC in any great depth. National are literally the only party in parliament who oppose carbon zero by 2050, and they do so actively. GHGs emissions have risen in the past 9 years. Yes, that’s right, National cause climate change.

          It’s not about a slightly imprecise alignment of politics, you voted for a party that literally is moving in the opposite direction of what every climate activist, scientist and campaigner is saying we need to do.

          The Greens are not going anywhere near that poison chalice. If you gave a shit about CC you’d have voted for anyone else but National. The Greens aren’t going to salve your conscience.

          If Shaw were made CC minister what do you think he could achieve. Here’s the GP set of climate policies. Tell me which ones you think National would agree to, and then how it would get paid for. The zero carbon act is a bottom line. I’m seriously interested in how you see that working.

        • Draco T Bastard

          Most of us are actually sensible, hard-working, caring individuals who don’t deserve to be tarred with a brush just because our politics don’t line up exactly with yours.

          Voting National disproves that statement.

        • Adrian Thornton

          @Matt, maybe you should just come on down here to Hastings and take a stroll though our local dilapidated hospital to see what your National Party policies actually means in real life…it sure looks pretty evil and selfish from that vantage point to me…but all good if you have private health care I guess.

          And to say you are a caring person and then vote National, the political party that is lead by a man that just straight out lied to the NZ public, time and again in a way never seen before in an NZ election cycle is a joke.

          If you can vote in good conscience for a straight out liar then your moral compass and mine must have different settings.

          • Matt

            So what you people on the Standard are saying is that you have a monopoly on righteousness and sanctimony and that you are the only people who are virtuous and good.

            Interesting how you dismiss 46% of the population as evil, not to mention the 7.5% who voted Winston, the 0.5% who voted ACT, and those who voted other.

            Perhaps if more than half the country doesn’t agree with your politics, then you should move to a socialist “paradise” like Venezuela.

            I happen to work in healthcare and I can reassure you, this government spends $17 billion a year on providing one of the top 20 healthcare systems on the planet. Sure it needs work and could do with more funding, but you’d struggle to find better socialised medicine anywhere else on earth except perhaps for the Scandinavian countries and Switzerland.

            • Stuart Munro

              By no means – the left have their moral failings too – it’s just that the Gnats have more by a couple of orders of magnitude.

              Christchurch lies in ruins and Gerry the thief belongs in jail.

              Despite Bill’s desperate lies, the economy is in ruins.

              Hospitals have enough staff but can’t operate because money.

              People are living and dying on the streets, and it’s getting worse.

              The Gnats’ answers to any complaints is denial – which is wrecking the country. Political complaints are like the oil light in your car – not too serious – but if you tape over it because you can’t be bothered dealing with it, you wreck everything. And that’s what they’ve done.

              God knows the Clark government was far from perfect – but it was infinitely better than these turkeys. I’ve had the privilege in my lifetime of watching a series of lousy government wreck our country. It’s about time we had someone who took the job seriously.

            • McFlock

              That reassurance is pretty weak when people are stacked up in corridors or turned away because ED is full, treatment delays endanger lives, and our promised new hospital turns out to be frozen meals trucked down from auckland.

              But given that you confuse “46% of people who voted” with “46% of the population”, I suspect you’re more blinkered and unimaginative than evil as such.

            • Adrian Thornton

              @Matt….Yes actually we have got a monopoly on the moral high ground, how do you think pretty much all workers rights, the socialised healthcare system that you work in, social public housing, most women’s rights etc etc came about? …not under any right wing political governorship that for fuckin sure pal.

              I don’t dismiss 46% of the population, I would describe it more as being dismayed at the selfishness and shortsightedness, and frankly shocked at the unbelievable public display of a lack of moral compass from so many of my fellow citizens.

              • I don’t dismiss 46% of the population, I would describe it more as being dismayed at the selfishness and shortsightedness, and frankly shocked at the unbelievable public display of a lack of moral compass from so many of my fellow citizens.


                • ropata

                  I don’t blame low information voters, the poor, or those who remember Rogernomics for getting sucked in by NatCorp(tm) PR.

                  I do blame middle class property investors, land bankers, and wealthy immigrants for voting in their own selfish interests and causing needless suffering to so many.

                  50% of the homeless in Aotearoa ARE CHILDREN


    • SpaceMonkey 8.4

      The fundamental problem is that it is National’s economic policy that is degrading the environment and contributing to climate change. So just dealing with the environment is not enough if the upstream (excuse the pun) causes of environmental degradation are not dealt with at the same time.

      Over the last 9 years National have refused to DO anything meaningful in this area because they know to do that will require some serious re-thinking of economic policy… and progressive politics is just NOT National’s domain.

      And green politics is light-years ahead of where National currently are at. So National/Greens is a big ask… I think it would be too much for either party.

    • Booker 8.5

      I appreciate your input and honesty Matt, but what you are proposing is just not possible. It carries with it the implication that the environmental damage going on is somehow an accidental by-product – effectively saying ‘can’t we just keep things as they are (with the Nats in charge) but minimize the environmental damage by having the Greens there too?’. And yes, I get that you, and most NZers who vote National, don’t hate the environment, after all.

      But the environment isn’t being degraded as an accident, it is an inevitable consequence of our approach to ‘economic growth’, and an accounting system which excludes environmental damage from the costs of doing business. In order to address environmental issues you need to ask why our relationship with the environment is so poor and work from there to find solutions. But National’s track record show they have no interest in changing.

      Take fossil fuels for example. Senior ministers in National have, on camera, said that climate change doesn’t exist, or if it does, have pulled out the same well-worn climate change denial myths that have been assessed and found wanting by scientific research. They’ve also tried to shut down climate scientists like Jim Salinger, reopened coal power plants and tried to continue and expand coal and gas mining. This is the polar opposite from what science tells us we need to be doing.

      The fundamental problem is that for the longest time it has largely been possible for us to ignore the link between economic activity, the environment and the health of society. But now we’re coming hard up against environmental limits and it’s becoming increasingly clear that all three are linked – just look at Puerto Rico right now (cyclone damage), the Nigerian delta (oil damage), Flint Michigan (lead in the water), or our own rivers for examples. We can’t keep going the same way but for reasons people around here struggle to understand National seem to be fundamentally opposed to change. It’s not that it’s ‘the environment versus the economy’ either – you can’t have a functional economy without a functional environment, and you can still have good economic prosperity with sound environmental policy. James Shaw had some good examples on the campaign trail.

      So there is no possible Blue-Green coalition. We’ve come to a point where a change is desperately needed but National still want to pretend it’s the 1960s, there’s still plenty of the environment left to squander before we need to even think of changing, and want us to keep rowing – or running – in the same direction as always. But National are increasingly rowing against the tide of scientific evidence.

      • BM 8.5.1

        Can I ask what the Greens are hoping to achieve with a Greens/Labour/NZ First coalition?

        You do realise there will be no great change happening, this talk of great change is delusional bullshit.

        Labour needs as much tax as possible to push through their agenda, NZ First support base consists of a lot of rural voters, we’re going to be a primary producer for the foreseeable future, that’s what pays the bills.

        • weka

          The zero carbon act, on its own, would be a huge gain.

          • BM

            How does that compare with what NZ First is proposing?


            Peters says the Greens stole their policy but further down the page gives them a boot

            “But typical of that party, which bases policy on 100% theory and 0% reality, they don’t understand that the environment and economy are flipsides of the same coin. Countries like Norway understand that and are both progressive and environmental leaders.

            • McFlock

              So that’s two coalition partners prioritising it, even if Labour don’t (can’t recall off the top of my head and don’t particularly care if they do or not, given that it’s a priority for both Labour’s necessary partners).

              So the benefit is that ZeroC becomes a priority for the new government and other policies can still be negotiated, rather than a half-arsed attempt at zeroC being the main concession either party gets from the nats.

              Shaw put it well in his election night speech – the greens have a lot of overlap with NZ1. If the priority is to introduce as much of NZ1’s policy agenda as possible, they’d go left. But there are other factors at play (such as the inputs from various cauci and memberships), so who knows.

            • weka

              Not sure what you mean BM. As far as I can tell it would be a pretty straight forward win given all 3 parties are in general agreement. But that would be a huge change from what we have now.

              ““But typical of that party, which bases policy on 100% theory and 0% reality, they don’t understand that the environment and economy are flipsides of the same coin. Countries like Norway understand that and are both progressive and environmental leaders.”

              Lolz Peters saying the Greens don’t understand green economics. He’s politicking BM, I’m surprised you got sucked in by that. Feel free to have a look at the GP policy, which embeds a green economic plan in its climate change package.

              • CoroDale

                Actually, contradictions exist in GP Economic Policy, but understood by Caucus, high level Commissions as answer. Labour signaled “new tax working groups” etc. Seems on track. Should suit NZF, but could be painfully slow. Hope those Commissioners are being secured. Can’t visualise any MPs having skills to plan NZ out of this housing storm. Yes, borrow buckets of Zionist money to bridge, but that sits poorly with GP and NZF. Expect Winnie to have Peoples Public Credit within 3years, GP would back that for housing.

        • Booker

          You do realise there will be no great change happening, this talk of great change is delusional bullshit.

          I said change is needed, and it’s what the Green Party have been campaigning on, but I don’t know if it will necessarily happen in the 3 years with only 6% of the vote going Green. But, Jacinda’s realization that climate change is this generation’s nuclear free moment gives me hope that Labour are finally fully on board.

          Besides, when you ask what would a Labour/Greens/NZF government achieve I don’t know, but definitely far more than a National-led government.

          • BM

            But, Jacinda’s realization that climate change is this generation’s nuclear-free moment gives me hope that Labour is finally fully on board.

            That was more about getting all those lost Labour votes back, as I’ve posted before Labour used Nationals Act strategy on the Greens

            Besides, when you ask what would a Labour/Greens/NZF government achieve I don’t know, but definitely far more than a National-led government.

            How do you know if you don’t even ask the question?

            • McFlock

              as I’ve posted before Labour used Nationals Act strategy on the Greens

              Just pretend that the rabid tory campaign against the greens after Turei’s announcement had nothing to do with their sudden drop in the polls.

              How do you know if you don’t even ask the question?

              It doesn’t take much questioning to know that an albatross can fly farther than an emu.

      • Matt 8.5.2

        You make some very valid points, but you do realise that the vast majority of global climate change is driven by emissions in the United States, China, Europe and India?? I agree that little old New Zealand could do a lot better, but frankly we are pissing in the wind when it comes to actually making a difference.

        • weka

          This tells me that you don’t follow green politics and don’t know what the Green Party’s kaupapa is or what their policies are, because they covered this extensively in their campaign.

          NZ is a <1% emitter. All the sub 1% emitters combined make up 23% of global emissions. Even if China, the US etc met their obligations those sub 1% countries would still need to as well.

          If you want to argue that NZ doesn't matter, you are saying that those 23% of emissions don't matter. That locks us in to catastrophic CC.

        • Booker

          Like Weka said.

          Also, China may be one of the biggest polluters but they’re also making some of the most radical changes to get off coal. According to the International Energy Agency last year they installed 34 GWa of solar panels, and it looks like they’ll increase on that this year. They’re the world’s biggest solar market.

          New Zealand is around 80% renewable for power generation. National have used this as an excuse to do nothing, saying we’re already way higher than most countries in terms of renewable energy. But we’re only that high due to geography and historical accident. Our country is long and thin with mountain ranges down the middle, which means plenty of rivers to dam. So previous generations put in hydroelectric plants well before anyone had heard of climate change. They left us with only a 20% gap to fill to get to 100% renewable energy – but National say that’s too hard.

          What’s so depressing about this is New Zealand used to be a country where people got things done, punched above their weight, did the impossible like Ed Hillary. Now we have a challenge of 100% clean energy, which is entirely possible, and a government that can’t be bothered. Where’s the vision or drive to do better?

        • Draco T Bastard

          Ah, look at that – a RWNJ denying all responsibility for their actions.

    • We don’t buy into social justice warrior issues, but we would be quite happy if National paid more attention to environmental issues.

      Which means that you don’t care about all the poverty that National has caused.

      Think about it. James Shaw could kill two birds with one stone – end Winston’s stranglehold on MMP and give the Greens a “seat at the table” to actually make change real.

      The Greens going with National would only destroy the Greens. but you know that.

      Not every “right wing voter” is a capitalist-fascist-millionaire.

      No, some of them are dupes that believe the proven lies of the capitalist-fascist-millionaires like Blinglish.

      Just because we didn’t buy into Jacindamania doesn’t mean we can’t hold pro-environment views.

      As long as you vote National those views don’t count.

      • Matt 8.6.1

        Gosh you are all so friendly and welcoming. No wonder a massive 5.9% of the country voted for the Greens, you make everyone who is interested in your ideas feel sooo valued.

        Lose the cloak of sanctimony and try to win the minds of the people through reasoned, rational argument, not pontification and arrogance, will you?

        • Draco T Bastard

          You’re not interested in our ideas. That’s why you vote National against all the evidence that they cause all sorts of social problems and add to climate change and environmental damage.

        • Cinny

          Matt those voters who really care about the environment would have investigated all the parties policies on it, and it’s pretty clear that the right wing does not value the environment as highly as the left.

          national is most effective at mass manipulation, unfortunately, there are way too many ill-informed voters who are victims of spin rather than scholars in the difference between various parties policies.

          I’d suggest a good healthy dose of question time to demonstrate how national values the greens and their policies. The thing national values the most is power.

    • Whispering Kate 8.7

      Matt, if the Greens got into bed with National that would be the end of the Greens as a party. Nobody can slip between the sheets with National and survive – National are toxic marriage partners.

    • NewsFlash 8.8


    • Paul Campbell 8.9

      You know that your “social justice warrior” shit is just an insult from American right right? no one here describes themselves that way, we may want a more decent fairer society but no one considers themselves a ‘warrior’ – that’s a crazy rightywing american world view.

      So probably, if you really want to build a coalition leaving the insults at home is probably a great start, you’ll have noticed that Bill is already firing some of his Dirty Politics mob so as not to offend Winston

    • Jeremy B 8.10

      “Plenty of conservative Kiwis actually do care about the environment. We just don’t care about people”

    • Shona 8.11

      Hey Matt when will well meaning drongo Natz join up the effing dots and UNDERSTAND that the environment is social justice. They are not separate. We all live in the same environment it is not separate from any of us.You cannot have social justice if the environment is being strip-mined and polluted by the vandal hordes of 21st century capitalism. And as the obscenity of the Fonterra CEO’s salary illustrates we are the idiot serfs shitting daily in our own nests so the overlord in the castle can continue undistracted to hoard more gold.

  9. savenz 9

    If either NZ First or Greens go with National, judging by Natz history with partners, it will be the end of their parties.

    A National coalition is a bit like the Nazi’s co-opting the Jews into being workers running the concentration camps.

    • alwyn 9.1

      Actually history says that what you should have written is, not
      “If either NZ First or Greens go with National, judging by Natz history with partners, it will be the end of their parties. ”
      but instead
      “If either NZ First or Greens go with National or Labour, judging by National and Labour history with partners, it will be the end of their parties.”

      Remember The Alliance Party? Went into coalition with Labour and died.
      United Future? Went into coalition with Labour and then National. Since died.
      New Zealand First? Went into coalition with Labour in 2005. Died in 2008 and then, somehow, was reincarnated.
      Maori Party? Lasted 3 terms with National but then died.
      ACT? Went into coalition with National. Now still alive but on Life Support.
      If Greens and NZF go into coalition with either of the majors they will die. Even a superior souffle like Winston can’t rise a third time.
      The Greens will go down for the count at the end of a term if they go into Government with anyone. They haven’t got anyone with the Charisma of Winston to revive them.

      Your second sentence is simply disgusting. I suppose you also think that the Labour Party supported the gulags in Siberia.

      The Green Party should also look very hard at the prospect that Cullen may be involved with the Labour negotiations with NZF. Cullen isn’t likely to be on the side of the Greens, is he? He has form at Green bashing.

  10. tsmithfield 10

    Here is the perspective of a negotiator who agrees with the point I made above. By ruling out even the possibility of an arrangement with the Nats, the Greens are consigning themselves to political irrelevance.

    • Carolyn_nth 10.1

      Politics don’t just happen in the arena of government and political game playing; or suppressing principles for short term gains in political power.

      Yet again right wingers fail to understand the breadth and depth of green politics.

      • tsmithfield 10.1.1

        I think the Greens fail to grasp the benefits of moving more to the centre and being able to go with either side. Yes, it would probably cost them some left wing votes. But, they would probably pick up a lot more from the center.

        Also, if the Greens are truly concerned about the environment, they could get a lot more done in that respect by being in coalition with National than what is likely to occur under a National NZ First coalition, or possibly even a Labour/NZ First/Greens coalition.

        When it all boils down it is just selfish idealism that is stopping them taking a pragmatic approach to this.

        • Carolyn_nth

          Thank you for being soooo concerned about the future of the GP.

          Of course, National supporters don’t seem to realise how transparent their machinations can be.

          Of course the Nats would prefer to be able to play NZF off against the GP, rather than being held to ransom by NZF only.

          Sorry, the Nats have eaten all their allies, and will need to deal with NZF on their own.

        • Robert Guyton

          Hobbits, if they want to save Middle Earth from the orcs, should work with the orcs!!!

          Or not.

          • greywarshark

            Can idealism be ‘selfish’ as in tsmithfields comment? It can be misguided. It can lead to back-stabbing of other similar groups, on the grounds that one’s own idealism is better than theirs. But selfish seems the wrong word.

            • tsmithfield

              Yes it can be selfish. If it leads to an outcome that is worse for the environment than it would have been if the Greens took a pragmatic approach and entered into an arrangement that gave them some true influence to achieve their environmental objectives.

              • weka

                The Greens are taking a pragmatic approach. They’re considering working with NZF.

                Your argument is sophistry. The Greens will achieve more for the environment and ending poverty in opposition than they would by going with National.

                National voters need to take some responsibility for the fact they voted for the slash and burn party and stop blaming the Greens for that.

                • tsmithfield

                  Of course they are, but even Trotter gives only a 25% chance of that deal getting across the line:


                  So, on that basis there is only a 25% chance that the Greens can achieve anything significant in the current negotiations. And even that influence will be diluted with the accommodations required for NZ First.

                  However, if they were to agree to go with National, there is a 100% chance they would have a position of strong influence on the environment.

                  I’m sorry, but the Green’s approach to this seems brain-dead to me.

                  • weka

                    Ok, so tell me which policies of the Greens you think National would agree to. Be specific.

                    (btw, I think you conflated a couple of things there. Getting a deal is not the same as what that deal entails).

                    • tsmithfield

                      I am not involved in National, so I can’t specifically say what policies they would adopt.

                      But I think they would be very open to the environmental focus of the Greens.

                      The main point is not so much whether the Green’s will go with National, but they should adopt a position that is convincing to Labour that they might.

                      Here is what Rachael Smalley has to say about it:


                      As it stands at the moment, Labour seem to be treating the Greens like obedient poodles who should be grateful for whatever scraps Labour decides to throw to them.

                      Heck, Labour won’t even involve the Greens in a three-way discussion in the negotiations:


                      Despite what Labour says to the contrary, the Greens will not get anywhere near as many concessions from Labour because NZ First is the squeak that needs to be oiled, and the Greens have locked themselves into a position where they have no other options but to accept whatever Labour decide to give them.

                      The Greens have willingly put themselves into this position which beggars belief to me.

                    • weka

                      Ok, so no actual environmental policy concessions from National. What would be the point then?

                      “The main point is not so much whether the Green’s will go with National, but they should adopt a position that is convincing to Labour that they might.”

                      They already got a number of policies adopted by Labour, did you not follow what happened in the campaign?

                      Basically you are suggesting that the GP lie to gain power. They don’t do that because they believe that lying is wrong.

                    • tsmithfield

                      I am sure there would be policy concessions. It is just that I am in absolutely no position to say what those might be. But I imagine there could be greater emphasis on water purity, perhaps concessions on permits for exploration for oil etc. Perhaps concessions around the RMA.

                      It is a bit hard to go much further given that there has been no indication from the Greens that they are remotely interested.

                      Anyway, as I said, the main benefit for the Greens would be, if nothing else, the extra leverage they would have in their own negotiations with Labour if they played a bit more “hard to get”.

                      I don’t think it would be “lying” as such in dealing with National. They could be upfront that a deal would be hard to do. But, certainly an open-mind would be required. Who knows what could develop from that.

                      Think about it. How well do you think you would get on negotiating the price for a car if the person selling knows you have decided to buy it regardless of the cost.

                      Same thing applies here.

                    • weka

                      You think National would ban deep sea oil drilling? Reduce dairy cow numbers? Shore up the RMA?

                      I doubt it. But you missed the bit about zero carbon being a baseline policy.

                      I’m not surprised though, because you are not really suggesting that the Greens go with National, you just want them to lie to their actual coalition partners, their voters, their members and the rest of the country in order to gain power. Sounds like a RW dream of killing the Greens.

                    • tsmithfield

                      As I said, I’m not in a position to make those call’s about policy, so I am just speculating on a few possibilities.

                      As mentioned in my previous post, I don’t think “lying” would be the right thing to do. But being willing to at least discussing possibilities with National would be worth doing. The MP got major concessions from National, when no-one thought a deal was possible. Granted, it didn’t work out too well for them in the end.

                      The Greens are in a different position, though. There are a centrist Green parties in other countries that do OK in that position.

                      It would mean finding a new constituency. However, the Greens may tap into a much larger vein of support in that position than what they have now.

                      Otherwise they will forever be at the behest of Labour.

                      See how being in that position has worked out for ACT. When they are seen as an inconvenience they get given the flick.

                    • weka

                      Ok, so you want them to enter into deceitful coalition negotiations with National now, despite there being no useful policy concessions and where there is no intention to actually form govt with National, because this would start to rebrand them as a centrist Green party despite their core values, Charter, policies, MPs, members and voter all not being centrist but being left wing?

                      Tui award there mate.

                      This is tedious. I’m sure even you have seen people talking about the degree to which the GP is based on its internal democracy. What do you think would happen if it did as you say and betrayed the membership?

                    • tsmithfield

                      That is because you keep putting words into my writing that I am not saying.

                      1. I have no idea what policy concessions National could make, as I am not involved with the party, though I have speculated on a couple of areas.

                      2. I don’t condone deceit. As mentioned, the Greens would need to be up front about it being difficult to do a deal, but approach it with an open mind. Thus, the door would have to be open about the possibility of a deal, even if the probability of that is quite low.

                      3. If the Green’s adopted that approach it would strengthen their negotiating position as a whole, and at least get more concessions from Labour, if nothing else. As per your comments below, that would be a good thing as it would get more Green policies adopted.

                    • McFlock

                      “Strength through futility”… sounds like a good slogan lol

                      Seriously, even if you wanted to coerce rather than negotiate, you can’t have a stronger bargaining position simply by virtue of the fact of a hail mary throw to someone with extremely low odds of being interested in a deal.

                      Either the greens have a stronger position against Labour by having realistic chances of aligning with the nats, or they’re just wasting everyone’s time (including Labour’s). And the Greens do not have a realistic chance of going with the nats this parliamentary term (if ever).

                      Even if the green caucus sold out, the coalition deal needs to be ratified by the membership, who would tell the nats (and the green caucus) to get fucked.

        • Draco T Bastard

          Also, if the Greens are truly concerned about the environment, they could get a lot more done in that respect by being in coalition with National than what is likely to occur under a National NZ First coalition, or possibly even a Labour/NZ First/Greens coalition.


          National have proven that they just don’t care about the environment and will simply continue to destroy it.

          Same with poverty. They’ll just keep increasing it.

          When it all boils down it is just selfish idealism that is stopping them taking a pragmatic approach to this.

          It’s actually National that’s not being pragmatic (Google definition):

          dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.

          What National does is fully contrary to that.

      • tsmithfield 10.1.2

        How well has that approach worked out for the Greens after how many years in parliament?

        • weka

          Labour just adopted climate and environmental policies. How is that not a win?

          • tsmithfield

            Basically, Labour adopted a lot of Green policies so that there was very little differentiation any more on an environmental basis. I have a feeling that contributed to the major decline in the Green vote. So, a win? Perhaps not so much.

            • weka

              It’s a win if you want change not power. How is getting a major political party to adopt some of your policies not a good thing?

              • tsmithfield

                I guess, on that basis, the Green’s would be most successful if other parties adopted their policies to such a degree there wasn’t any need for them to exist at all.

                • McFlock


                  Why bother if it’s already being done?

                • weka

                  You’re finally starting to get it ts! Change not power.

                  Not to worry, there is still plenty of room for the Greens to tack left after Labour adopted chunks of their positioning (and hopefully their policy). The Greens won’t disappear soon, but honestly, if Labour were to adopt the GP environmental and welfare policies in a major way, that would be a win.

                  • weka

                    this btw is why there was so much backlash against Turei. People are willing to do want to do right by the environment. We’re not that close with welfare, still plenty of work there to be done.

                    • tsmithfield

                      I don’t understand why the Green’s want to position themselves to the left, or be involved in welfare. It seems like a mixed message to me. Green and the environment I can understand. The other, not so much.

                      I know a number of people who would consider voting Green if it wasn’t for the extreme left bias of the party. Heck, I might even vote for them myself if they were more of a centre party.

                    • lprent []

                      I don’t understand why the Green’s want to position themselves to the left, or be involved in welfare.

                      You must be pretty thick. But I will explain it for your simple mind.

                      People who are scratching around just to find shelter and feed themselves and their dependents, like pretty much everyone on welfare in Auckland and coming to all towns in NZ near you shortly in the future as housing rental costs rise, aren’t particularly interested in conservation or green issues. They are interested in finding enough to live on.

                      In a society like NZ there is more than enough wealth to make everyone moderately affluent with surplus income over required costs. But there isn’t enough to support the top 10% of the country by income increasingly wealthy in the way that has happened over the last 30 years without making the bottom 30% poorer – which is what has happened – mainly under National and without much redress under Labour. In essence the idea of a trickledown of benefits from a deregulated economy can only be described as spiteful fictional delusion foisted by the fat and the greedy on everyone else.

                      So unless National wants to redress that income imbalance themselves, which hardly seems likely given their grasping and punitive record over the last 80 years, the costs of any significiant green changes to the economy are likely to most fall heavily on the people with the least ability to deal with them. So part of all of the green movements has always been a clear direction to address income equality as part of the process.

                      If you don’t understand that, then I suspect that you lack both empathy as would be expected by any supporter of National, and basic intelligence.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      I don’t understand.

                      You got that right. What I don’t understand is how after all the column inches dedicated to the subject over the last couple of months, you still can’t even articulate the argument.

                      Prove me wrong: explain what exactly you don’t understand about, for example, the “three legged stool” metaphor. Go into detail. Be expansive. Maybe some sort of charitable help can be arranged.

          • Brokenback

            Whilst I agree 100% with your view that the likelyhood of the Gnats agreeing to anything meaningful in the way policy accommodation with the GP , I also agree with some the arguments being put by your antagonists that the GP should enter into some serious discussions with the Gnats.
            Despite being an adult lifelong Green & conservationist I have never supported the GP [or Greenpeace etc, etc] because of the political naivety and quasi religious nature of the policies and beliefs of its adherents.
            Much as I believe that Blue-Green concept is as valid as trickle down economics ,never the less the fake news machine has established it as a political reality.
            There’s no better time to improve the GP’s political credibility with the “swinging voters” than the present.
            The effort involved would be considerable and taxing – dealing with the slime at the bottom the pond is never energising or uplifting but in terms of growth of a political nature , it would be invaluable.
            It’s a big ask because the negotiations involved with the Lab/GP/NZF alternative must contain a considerable effort , not only on policy matters but on coalition management.
            The coalition management protocols and designated personnel must focus on inter-party communication, management of public perception and a top priority ,massive de-construction of the Fake news/Dirty tricks machine that has set the agenda and controlled the information and conversation for 12 years.
            The change I voted for necessitates draining the effluent pond and dealing with the toxic residue in a sustainable way.

            • weka

              So you want the GP to lie in order to gain some coalition negotiation advantages with Labour and NZF?

              • To be fair, most people are used to regular-issue political parties, so assume the need to tell the Greens ur doin it wrong.

                • weka

                  True, but the Greens have been around a long time. Maybe people need to pay more attention to how they work.

              • Brokenback

                Lying is not obligatory nor politically advantagious when you’re dealing with an entity that controls the news.
                I’m not privvy to the GP leadership’s policy bottom lines , but I can be certain that it’s not chapter & verse of the manifesto.

                Every negotiating process I’ve been party to contained bottom lines and throw away items .
                During the process some items changed classification , others appeared and disappeared .
                My efficacy as a negotiator improved significantly the more times I was involved.

                • weka

                  “Lying is not obligatory nor politically advantagious when you’re dealing with an entity that controls the news.”

                  So why did you just suggest that the GP lies as part of the process?

                  Afaik the only publicly declared policy bottom line is the zero carbon act. But also values. The Greens have been saying for months that they fully understand the need to compromise on policy, that’s a given. They won’t betray their core values or the four principles though.

            • Draco T Bastard

              Despite being an adult lifelong Green & conservationist I have never supported the GP [or Greenpeace etc, etc] because of the political naivety and quasi religious nature of the policies and beliefs of its adherents.

              The Greens are more based in reality than any other political party.

              There’s no better time to improve the GP’s political credibility with the “swinging voters” than the present.

              Negotiating with National won’t do that. In fact, all it would do would be to cause many of their members to leave as their credibility would then be shot.

        • greywarshark

          Perhaps the Greens did not think that past offers would give them “true” influence. Not being selfish and thinking that being pragmatic would be unwise.

          They probably didn’t realise as they must now, how devious National is, and that they might be able to win a few big opportunities in one area while at the same time the NP went on polluting in another area, and still could look at the Greens with a bland, smug face and say ‘Look how well we are doing. This shows we can really work well for environmental change”. (Facing away from the billboard saying don’t swim or drink from this river, it could lead to infection and possibly death.) Perhaps they could have kept a see-saw movement, working in one place, then weakening bad practices in a direct farming area, then back to an alternative, then a different farmer foray in another way and area.

          The Maori Party tried to work with National and compromised themselves and lost their opportunity to take the high stance, and had a continuing low vote, and now are out. That was another possibility of going with National and even explaining the successes and the strategy would not have appeased some of their idealistic supporters.

          It’s a dangerous ploy to sleep with the enemy, they can garotte you when you are relaxed and vulnerable, and unable to defend yourself. So don’t be too harsh tsmithfield. I think you are a little naive about the cutting sharpness of words, in the war of words in the political arena. Guns and tasers are not needed, words of the right calibre can bring good parties down. Hi Metiria, hope all goes well with you.

    • popexplosion 10.2

      National are the ones consigning the planet to pollution, etc. It’s like getting into bed with the serial killer hoping you can change them. It’s bullocks, like National care, look at the rivers after 9 years, the overnight Carparks, the garage sleep overs.

      Look. See how they dealt with the leaky homes crisis. Or the Brown Lee arbitrary 50% call that they finally lost in court and other off the head decisions. They are incapable, their record shows they manage by harvesting profits from degrading NZ Stifled growth as we hit limits requires competencies the National party are hardwired to see as weakness and opportunity to exploit the naive.

      Greens won’t buy into power at the first glimpse, take heed of the Maori party, after one term holding up Key they should have given NF the gavel. Instead they doubled down and were cannibalize by Key. One term is enough.

      • garibaldi 10.2.1

        Righties just can’t see past their nose. They want the Greens to be a centrist party. FFS, what a bunch of ignorant morons.

  11. Vagabundo 11

    Look at what happened to NZF came out of a coalition with National very scathed, United Future are effectively dead, the Maori Party are out of parliament and ACT is potentially dead in the water, having spent the last few election cycles as a puppet party for National. Why would anyone in their right mind want to go in to coalition with them?

  12. greywarshark 12

    Who’s this Chris in the tweeter feed who can seriously suggest making Chloe Swarbrick deputy pm in a Nat/Green government because it will cause the political world to explode. This is politics as a spectacle for the masses, who typically create messes.

    Also it is mischievous, as Marama is the annointed person to be Greens co leader I should think. Sorry all you fun lovers, I think a lot of us want to carry on in a serious vein trying to do good politics with good politicians.

    You others want to make a musical out of it like Cabaret which I think was about entertaining RWs and Nazis as a break from their head breaking daily duties? God help us.

    • Also it is mischievous, as Marama is the annointed person to be Greens co leader I should think.

      Unlike National and other feudalist followers we don’t do ‘annointings’.

      • greywarshark 12.1.1

        You are taking me too literally DTB. But nice to see that you are still keeping the political discourse going after the lack-lustre results of the election. I think you are a pillar of this blog.

  13. Stuart Munro 13

    I think the appointment of Metiria as welfare ombudsman would be an early step for the new Green Gnat administration. And Robert, poor fellow, might have Joyce wished upon him like Pu Yi – to learn the productive trade of gardening.

    • Robert Guyton 13.1

      Send him to me (will Paula be Wang Wen-Chao? – where should I look?) Steven has, from what I can see, no dirt at all under his manicured fingernails. I can fix that.

      • Stuart Munro 13.1.1

        He got a zoo degree apparently – may not be as lost a cause as all that – like Harry Joy, he just needs to spend a bit more time with trees.

        • Robert Guyton

          Well, if Harry can find joy, so can Steve. In any case, we should all spend more time with the trees – therein lies bliss!

  14. Brokenback 14

    lied, lying. 5. to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive. Synonyms: prevaricate, fib. 6.

    There are a multitude of ways and words that can be used without uttering an untruth knowingly.
    Especially if the receiver has not and likely ever had an understanding of “truth”.

    The art or science of politics is the management of public perception , the GP could do a lot more for it’s constituency and the nation as a whole by improving its abilities in this respect.
    Granted not an easy path to take but “manageable” with the right evaluation and review processes.

    • weka 14.1

      That doesn’t make much sense in this context. You suggested that the GP enter into coalition negotiations with a party it cannot support in govt, and that they do so in order to gain power against their natural allies and other people they are willing and able to work with. How is that not being deceitful?

      More to the point, how would that work? Would they say “we’re going to negotiate with National but we have no intention of supporting them into govt”? Or would they say “we’re going to negotiate with National, and we might support them into govt”? Because the first would induce ridicule. And the second is deceitful and would induce hostility.

      Even more to the point, they’ve have to break their promise to the electorate, their voters an their members. What would they say to them in the meantime?

      I’m genuinely curious to know how that could be done.

      • Brokenback 14.1.1

        No-one in their right mind would say either in the current circumstances .

        Any statement would be couched in political speak.

        ie Open to varying interpretation , depending on the predisposition of the audience.

        More or less standard fare before the advent of wide scale dog whistling.

        The point I’m trying to make is that possible voter support for GP peaked at 15-17% in 2017.
        It’s been a never ending battle to get press/media focus on the GP Policy/concerns.
        Most exposure has been limited to public ridicule and deliberate discredit.

        The very same media is in a state of vacuous frenzy at present with a distinct shortage of material for their mindless machinations.
        IMO , an ideal time to garner a lot of exposure , particularly if demonstrating the possibility that they may not simply occupy a part of the political spectrum that no-one else wants to go.
        Not easy to do, again without causing the consternation amongst the membership and core support.
        If managed well and the [inevitable] final decision is “put” to the membership , who , as you say ,will not accept a Coalition with the Gnats the no harm is done and there’s a very real possibility that not only the preferred Coalition partners but Gnats, swinging voters and the media will not pigeon hole the GP to the extent they do now

        • Carolyn_nth

          mate, it’s not just about the will of members – though that is extremely important.

          A load of people voted for the Green Party on the understanding it wanted to change the government and would only go into alliance with Labour. John Minto called for it. Sue Bradford called for it, etc.

          For the GP to turn their back on them and start negotiating with the Nats would be a betrayal of those voters.

          It’s right wingers calling for the GP to deal with the Nat – well, they ate up and spat out all their allies. They tried to kill of Peters. Now they are left dealing with with NZF. I suspect many rightees just want a foil party to play off against NZF.

          Basically, right wingers want to use the GP for their own ends.

          Tough – Nats and their supporters made their bed – now they can lie in it.

          If you want to talk about the GP changing tack in the future, that’s another matter – but wait til the election negotiations are over, and we’re heading towards another election.

          But, if they do start looking to partner the Nats in the future, they will lose a lot of their support, and leave some of us looking for a new party to be developed.

          It frustrates me that right wingers are trying to hi jack the GP, and claiming it’s in the best interests of the GP.

        • weka

          “ie Open to varying interpretation , depending on the predisposition of the audience.”

          Yes, and as soon as GP members and voters hear it they’ll be going wtf? Because the GP gave its word that it wouldn’t support National and now you are suggesting that it lies for political advantage. It.can’ (and won’t).

          I don’t give a flying fuck about political expediency. If the GP go right/centrist I will stop supporting them, stop voting for them, and will treat them like the problem that all centrists are for a fair NZ in an age of environmental and social degradation. But of course this is an utter nonsense of a discussion, because no-one in the GP wants to do what you are suggesting.

          • tracey

            I have been thinking that at 15% in a poll was probably the best time for the Greens to do the big poverty action. Cos they knew there would be backlash but getting the issue front and centre rated highly for them? Perhaps they did gamble but maybe it was more calculated than people think.

            They recovered to 5.8% amid a media and right ( and some left) wing opinionater frenzy. That when Labour had appointed a Leader that people were drawn to.

            IMO the decision only “backfired” if they did not make it back to parliament. They did, so it didnt.

            All this mischief making about 5.8% meaning they are close to oblivion continues to ignore where Greens poll when Labour are not weak.

            • weka

              I also think it was more thought through than they are given credit for. I also think they didn’t expect it to go this badly, nor that the MSM would go after Turei’s family so hard. The latter might be naive but I am ok with that, because they were right to think it was out of bounds.

              The 15% came after Turei’s speech, right? Can’t remember what they were on before that, I’m guessing their normal 11%.

              Thing is, if they’d lost all seats in parliament it still wouldn’t have been on them. I think that they could have managed things a bit differently but ultimately there were people gunning for her no matter what. The whole ‘they were naive, they should have handled it better, they should have done more research, they should have been perfect’ stuff fails when we consider that this overlapped with the Barclay affair where the Prime Minister told bald faced lies to the country, and then then both Joyce and the PM told bold face lies to the country about the fiscal stuff during an election campaign. To have the Greens blamed for not being competent politicians while the ones who win are liars, is just fucked up.

              They did the right thing. If NZ didn’t want to follow that with consideration and thoughtfulness, that’s on NZ. We get the Green Party we deserve. At the moment we deserve a 5.9% one apparently.

    • McFlock 14.2

      You’re so sharp you’ll cut yourself.

      You’re suggesting that the greens intentionally mislead people. The media backlash against the greens when they tell the truth is bad enough, now you want the backlash to be valid?

      • ianmac 14.2.1

        “that the greens intentionally mislead people”
        But look at how our country accepted the huge Joyce lies, (Dead cat that worked well) and the people appear to have forgiven them their trespasses. They still apparently want them to lead us.

        • McFlock

          With a largely complicit media.

          Whereas labgrn are called to account for every truth they tell, and are demanded to respond to nat lies.

          You think labgrn will be let away with absurd lies as much as the nats are? Hell no.

          Besides: it’s wrong.

        • tracey

          46%. Some of those, 20+% will never NOT vote National. Just as there are 20+ who will still never NOT vote Labour.

          That leaves 20% who think lying is cool for 20 bucks a week but not if you are poor

          • Brokenback

            “That leaves 20% who think lying is cool for 20 bucks a week but not if you are poor”

            I think you give them too much reasoning credit.

            My observation is that they are intellectually lazy/compromised and their preference is to accept the BS&lies rather than make an informed decision,

  15. d 15

    But seriously, this would be better than national/NZF.
    How true is it even that the greens members/current voters would revolt, Shaw I suspect would worry about this. I don’t think the greens would have polled less if, in the campaign, they indicated they could look at potentially working with national.

    • Carolyn_nth 15.1

      It would be VERY true. And there are a few people on TS that would be leading the revolt.

      Many people voted for the GP on the understanding they would not go into alliance with the Nats.

      It’s not up to people who didn’t vote for the GP, to now be telling them who they want them to negotiate with.

      • Brokenback 15.1.1

        OK ,
        I ‘ll go back to my original statement :
        Despite being an adult lifelong Green & conservationist I have never supported the GP [or Greenpeace etc, etc] because of the political naivety and quasi religious nature of the policies and beliefs of its adherents.

        • tracey

          Examples please, particularly the quasi religious bit.

          • Brokenback

            “Let’s face it folks Mother Earth (only a female could be so perfect and so long suffering) is evironmentally going to hell in a hand basket. This is her way of punishing all of us selfish earthlings. One day the earthlings will be wishing to hell they had paid attention to the Greens and other greenies all around the world. It will be too late then and we will be suffering from starvation, extreme heat and other too ghastly to think about environmentally toxic manifestations. All because of greed and selfishness.

            Don’t worry over mother Earth, she will survive quite nicely thank you, reinvent herself like only a good woman can and continue on spinning around in the ether. We guests in this wonderful place called Earth will only get what we have deserved, having abused her generosity and will be shown the door. Natural justice.”

            • CoroDale

              Yeah, witty. But if you remove all the art, its easy to let the science miss-lead you. Then its all supply-demand curve hypnosis, Marching-for-Science and autism. Greens in Germany, would suit you – they maturely bombed Yugoslavia in 1999 (no UN mandate) and still carry the zionic-stink-finger in support of sanctions on Russia. But NZ Greens would never go that low. We can thank a spiritual grounding, and Charter.

    • CoroDale 15.2

      d dude, I seriously didn’t support the Greens going into coalition even with Labour, let alone the gnats. The Greens actually have a Charter etc. Plus next Govt can expect casualities from the housing storm. But the MoU with Lab worked out well, suspect Turei was much of the magic behind that seemingly impossible plan.

  16. left_forward 16

    All very quaint and nice all these acknowledgements and overtures towards the Greens – are we suddenly supposed to forgive all of the tedious, malicious lies spun over the years about the ‘loony’ party by the Gnats now that they are so desperate to hold on to power?

  17. Adrian Thornton 17

    I can’t believe that anyone could seriously suggest this rubbish, National are the ideological enemy of everything that the GP stand for….just remeber this old saying.

    If you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.

    And as the Maori Party just found out, those fleas carried the plague.

    • Carolyn_nth 17.1


    • Brokenback 17.2

      There’s another old saying of relevance in dealing with the enemy.

      Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer.

    • tracey 17.3

      Not just ideologically but practically. Nats have not ideologicalled rogered the environment, the poor and the vulnerable they have actually rogered those.

      • Brokenback 17.3.1

        And I’ve just been pilloried for suggesting that it would be a damned good idea to
        “practically” get a bit closer to the enemy by engaging in some coalition discussions.

        • tracey

          No you havent. The Greens will not perpetuate Nats embedded BS. They also will not hold a larger party to ransom. Nibbling at the edges has been ineffective.

          You are talking about pragmatically setting aside some of their basic principles for a wee slice of power. They have hugely influenced NZ politics already without doing that. And that is one reason their members vote for them. It is also clearly one reason you dont which is your perogative.

          Climate change is the nuclear free of my generation and yer she didnt get it into a Leaders debate once.

          • Brokenback

            ” Nibbling at the edges has been ineffective.”
            “You are talking about pragmatically setting aside some of their basic principles for a wee slice of power. They have hugely influenced NZ politics already without doing that. And that is one reason their members vote for them.”

            I did not , and would not suggest setting aside their basic principles.

            I suggested they utilise the opportunity to have a conversation and thus have a clearer understanding about what the Gnats have realised they need to adjust their thinking[or lack thereof ] and policy perspectives they need to change if the indelible green vote will support them in the future .
            In the cyclic nature of NZ government making green progress in only 1 of the cycles and then being gutted, as it trashed before their eyes for purely ideological reasons ,in another , doesn’t create much momentum for the changes we need.

            • Drowsy M. Kram

              There are several two- and three-party negotiations that might give rise to the next government.

              At this early stage (before special vote results are known), National benefits massively from even the slightest hint of a serious National-Green negotiation, as this would weaken Winston’s hand.

              Hang fire Greens, at least until Winston has extracted his fair share of utu. In the meantime, imagine how negotiations with National might help to achieve Metiria’s goals of social justice – good luck!

              Rather than attempting to re-fashion the Green party in their own image, environmentally-conscious National voters should press their party to adopt a rational stance on climate change and the environment – less shit in our rivers (and less bene-bashing) would be a start.

  18. Whispering Kate 18

    Let’s face it folks Mother Earth (only a female could be so perfect and so long suffering) is evironmentally going to hell in a hand basket. This is her way of punishing all of us selfish earthlings. One day the earthlings will be wishing to hell they had paid attention to the Greens and other greenies all around the world. It will be too late then and we will be suffering from starvation, extreme heat and other too ghastly to think about environmentally toxic manifestations. All because of greed and selfishness.

    Don’t worry over mother Earth, she will survive quite nicely thank you, reinvent herself like only a good woman can and continue on spinning around in the ether. We guests in this wonderful place called Earth will only get what we have deserved, having abused her generosity and will be shown the door. Natural justice.

  19. Anne 19

    Extremely nicely put Whispering Kate. Thank-you.

    • In Vino 19.1

      Yes, chilling, and probably true. But the Righties don’t have no truck with such realism. They consistently pretend that all is OK, and it’s the economy, stupid.

  20. solkta 20

    I don’t understand why the media don’t ask Jacinda if Labour will consider going with National. Labour has much more policy in common with National than the Greens.

  21. NewsFlash 21

    It appears the only thing National and the Greens have in common is TAX cuts.

    • solkta 21.1

      The Greens want to increase the top tax rate, move tax from income to pollution, and introduce a capital gains tax – no common ground there.

      • NewsFlash 21.1.1

        But weren’t the Greens the only party to support National with the tax cuts set to be introduced in June?

Links to post

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • Swinson’s swithering
    Jo Swinson is doing even worse at this Being Sensible lark that I'd thought.  I've just become aware of the following utterance
    .@KayBurley presses Lib Dem leader @joswinson on whether she would agree to a #Brexit deal 'no matter how bad a deal it is' as long as it had ...
    13 hours ago
  • Women’s rights, trans ideology and Gramsci’s morbid symptoms
    by John Edmundson The International Socialist Organisation (ISO) have recently reposted a February article, by Romany Tasker-Poland, explaining ISO’s position in the “trans rights” debate.  It is available on their website and on their Facebook Page.  The article sets out to explain why “socialists support trans rights”.  It reads more ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    19 hours ago
  • We need to take guns off police
    Today's IPCA report of police criminality: a police officer unalwfully tasered a fleeing suspect who posed no threat to anyone:The police watchdog has found an officer unlawfully tasered an Auckland man who broke his ankle jumping off a balcony to escape arrest. [...] To avoid arrest, the man jumped over ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    20 hours ago
  • “Bringing kindness back”
    "Auckland City Mission: 10% of Kiwis experiencing food insecurity", RNZ, 16 October 2019:About half a million people are experiencing food insecurity, according to new research from the Auckland City Mission. Food insecurity, or food poverty, is defined as not having enough appropriate food. The City Mission said over the last ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    20 hours ago
  • Press Release: “Fake News” from Auckland City Council CCOs Board Chairs re pay and performance b...
    Media Statement for Immediate Release 16th October 2019 “Fake News” from Auckland City Council CCOs Board Chairs re pay and performance bonuses for top managers Despite comments from Auckland City Council CCOs Board Chairs re pay and performance bonuses for top managers—Herald Newspaper Tuesday Oct 15th–there is very little evidence ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    21 hours ago
  • Ever-So-Slightly Bonkers: Simon Bridges Plays To His Base.
    Would You Buy A Used Propaganda Video From This Man? Bridges and the National Party’s strategists have discovered that the ideas and attitudes considered acceptable by today’s editors and journalists are no longer enforceable. The rise and rise of the Internet and the social media platforms it spawned means that ...
    22 hours ago
  • Asking for food
    There is plenty of evidence of the way the business mentality has permeated every level of society since the recrudescence of market liberalism 35 years ago. You only need to think of how citizens in need of help from their government, their state, their country, are now routinely described as ...
    Opposable ThumbBy Unknown
    22 hours ago
  • Forty years of change in the jobs Kiwi do and the places they call home
    John MacCormick Over the last 40 years, New Zealanders – and people in other countries – have experienced big changes in the jobs they do and where they live and work. These changes include: a decline in manufacturing jobs an increase in jobs in ‘information-intensive’ industries (which are better paid ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    23 hours ago
  • Protecting Fresh Waterways in Aotearoa/NZ: The Strong Public Health Case
    Nick Wilson, Leah Grout, Mereana Wilson, Anja Mizdrak, Phil Shoemack, Michael Baker Protecting waterways has the benefits of: (1) protecting water from hazardous microbes; (2) minimising cancer risk and other problems from nitrates in water; (3) avoiding algal blooms that are hazardous to health; (4) protecting mahinga kai uses (cultural ...
    SciBlogsBy Public Health Expert
    1 day ago
  • Massey University triggered to rebrand
    by The Council of Disobedient Women In a press release today Massey University announced it has decided to rebrand and reorientate after struggling to be a University for grown-ups. For some time the University has wanted to be a safe play space for wee-woke-misogynists who have been really badly triggered ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 days ago
  • Swinson backing calls for a second referendum (again)
    After a brief dalliance with 'hard Revoke' it looks like the Lib Dems are changing ground on on Brexit, with leader Jo Swinson reverting to calling for a second referendum on Johnson's deal.The party has tabled an amendment to the Queen’s speech requesting that any deal brought back from Brussels ...
    2 days ago
  • An odious bill
    The government has decided that someone has done Something Bad. But despite their belief, there seems to be no evidence that they have actually broken the law. So the government's solution is to pass a retrospective law allowing them to be punished anyway, on a lower standard of proof. If ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • National is now the party of climate arson
    So, Judith Collins has done a Facebook rant about climate change, peddling the same shit National has been shovelling for the past twenty years: the impacts are overstated, there's no need to do anything about it, and its too hard anyway (oh, and its so unfair that people who peddle ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • The environmental footprint of electric versus fossil car
    Climate Explained is a collaboration between The Conversation, Stuff and the New Zealand Science Media Centre to answer your questions about climate change. If you have a question you’d like an expert to answer, please send it to There is a lot of discussion on the benefits of ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    2 days ago
  • “Manifest” by Andrew Bird – A Song For The Times.
    I came across this song quite by accident. If it isn't one of Greta Thunberg's favourites - it should be.Video courtesy of YouTube.This post is exclusive to Bowalley Road. ...
    2 days ago
  • Passing the buck
    Last month, NZDF's shoddy coverup of what it knew about civilian casualties in Operation Burnham began to fall apart, with the revelation that a report on the matter, which NZDF claimed not to have, had been sitting in an NZDF safe for the past nine years. Yesterday, the man responsible ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • India a major player in Earth observation satellites
    While many imagine that countries like the USA and Europe dominate space activities, in fact India is now a major player on this stage. It launches satellites for its own purposes and also commercially, and has constellations orbiting our planet and returning data of vital importance to that nation in ...
    SciBlogsBy Duncan Steel
    3 days ago
  • The rot at the top (2).
    Thanks to a report from the Acting Inspector General of Intelligence and Security following a complaint by Nicky Hager, we have come to find out that the SIS illegally spied on Mr. Hager on behalf of the NZDF after publication of Hager’s 2011 book, Other People’s Wars. The NZDF justified ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    3 days ago
  • Common misconceptions about “Global Warming”
    COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING MYTH 1: Global temperatures are rising at a rapid, unprecedented rate. FACT: The HadCRUT3 surface temperature index, produced by the Hadley Centre of the UK Met Office and the Climate Research Unit of the University of East Anglia, shows warming to 1878, cooling to 1911, ...
    An average kiwiBy
    3 days ago
  • A climate of tyranny
    For the past week, Extinction Rebellion has been peacefully protesting in London to demand action on climate change. The British government's response? Ban their protests:Police have banned Extinction Rebellion protests from continuing anywhere in London, as they moved in almost without warning to clear protesters who remained at the movement’s ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Collins crushes climate
    An essay by Judith Collins MP reported on Carbon News yesterday seems to show an alarming shift in attitude within the National Party. Collins argues against the Zero Carbon Bill, the Paris Agreement, and downplays the magnitude of climate impacts. The Paris Agreement was adopted in December 2015 and ratified ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert McLachlan
    3 days ago
  • More disappointment
    When they were running for election, Labour promised to overhaul the Employment Relations Act and introduce fair pay agreements to set basic pay and conditions on an industry level, preventing bad employers from undercutting good ones. They followed this up by establishing a working group, which reported back in January ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • What do these mother-child studies really say about fluoridation?
    A list of indicators of bad science – many of these are found in articles promoted by anti-fluoride activists. Anti-fluoride activists have been pouring money into a scaremongering campaign warning pregnant women not to drink fluoridated water. They claim fluoride will lower the IQ of their future child. Fluoride ...
    3 days ago
  • Losing Labour’s Mills-Tone.
    Nothing Left To Say: Labour's pollster, Stephen Mills, remains swaddled-up in the comforting myths of the 1980s. As if the experience of Roger Douglas’s genuinely radical post-Muldoon policy agenda was literally a once-in-a-lifetime thing – as much as the party could possibly absorb for at least the next 50 years.MEMO ...
    3 days ago
  • Speaker: Disability and the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse
    The Royal Commission on abuse in care is very significant for the disability community. For many decades last century, thousands of disabled children, and adults who managed to survive, were locked away from families and communities. This was not for anything they had done, but for the perceived threat their ...
    3 days ago
  • Spain is not a democracy
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • UK Conservatives hate democracy
    With an unfair voting system, uneven electorates and an un-elected upper house, the UK's "democracy" is barely worthy of the name. But now the government wants to make it worse:The government has been accused of suppressing voters’ rights with the potential disenfranchisement of tens of thousands of people after plans ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • What is wrong with our building industry?
    Back in the 90's and early 2000's, the building industry was building leaky homes which should never have been granted consent. Now it turns out they've been building dodgy office blocks as well:New imaging technology has revealed hundreds of major buildings nationwide have defective or missing concrete or reinforcing steel. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Local bodies
    Local body election results were released over the weekend, to joy or despair depending on where you live. In Auckland, Phil Goff trounced John Tamihere, who is muttering darkly about running for Parliament again (but which party would want him?) Wellington is now a wholly-owned subsidiary of Weta Workshop, except ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • A future of government
      How could government evolve over the next decades? Reports of democracy’s imminent demise are greatly exaggerated.  However, satisfaction with political systems in many countries is low, so there is much to do for governments of all political stripes to improve relevance and trust. Digital technologies are seen as one ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert Hickson
    6 days ago
  • Speaker: Catalonia, interrupted
    Two years have now gone by since the Friday afternoon when my university-student son and I headed out of our Barcelona flat to a nearby primary school, designated as a polling station for the vote that was to be held the following Sunday: the referendum on Catalonia’s independence from Spain ...
    6 days ago
  • Sage Decisions Unwisely Over-Ruled.
    Overruled: The joint decision of Finance Minister, Grant Robertson (Labour) and his Associate Minister, David Parker (Labour) arguably the two most powerful ministers in Jacinda Ardern’s government, to grant OceanaGold the consents which Land Information Minister, Eugenie Sage (Greens) had earlier denied them, offers bitter proof of how hard fighting ...
    6 days ago
  • Government may ban voting in effort to get more people to do it
    More than double the number of people who will vote in this year’s local body elections have tried marijuana or urinated somewhere they shouldn’t have. As local elections look set for the lowest turnout in decades, with many regions falling well short of 40%, the Government is exploring a number ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    7 days ago
  • Woman: Deleted.
    A Statement on Abortion Law Reform by the Council of Disobedient Women   On the eve of bringing an end to antiquated, anti-women abortion laws Green MP Jan Logie intends to write women out of the Bill. With a stroke of the pen, the woke are aiming for total erasure ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    7 days ago
  • The Hollowest of Men Ride Again… SURPRISE!
    Musings continue apace about “the experienced businessman!” soon to be taking up a National Party MP position. Or to be more accurate, being parachuted into a seat to shut down their former MP Jamie-Lee Ross, who despite his own shortcomings shed at least some more light on the inner workings ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    7 days ago
  • Barbaric
    The Ugandan government wants to murder gay people:Uganda has announced plans to impose the death penalty on homosexuals. The bill, colloquially known as “Kill the Gays” in Uganda, was nullified five years ago on a technicality, but the government said on Thursday it plans to resurrect it within weeks. The ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • Fighting Monsters.
    Freedom Of Speech? The Säuberung (cleansing by fire) was the work of the German Student Union which, on 10 May 1933, under the watchful eye of the Nazi Reichminister for Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels, consigned 25,000 books to the flames in a ritual exorcism of “un-German thought”. According to the logic of the ...
    7 days ago
  • The next wave of kaupapa Māori politics: its constitutional, it must be.
      “There can be no such thing as kaupapa Māori political parties or politics in Aotearoa” (Willie Jackson, Labour Party (2017). Māori TV, General/List Election Special) I begin with that claim because at the time, I was confounded at first that it fell out of Willie Jackson’s mouth, and then ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    1 week ago
  • Night lights of NZ from orbit
    New Zealand has prided itself for decades with regard to its lack of pollution, and all will be aware that the ‘100% Pure New Zealand‘ meme is under threat through land, water and air pollution of various causes. There is another type of contamination that the country also faces: light ...
    SciBlogsBy Duncan Steel
    1 week ago
  • Reporters deliver uplifting news to fleeing Japanese residents: they won’t miss any rugby
    New Zealand’s media is doing its part in Japan, reassuring those in the path of the storm that they won’t miss any rugby while away from their flooded homes. New Zealand sports reporters stationed in Japan for the Rugby World Cup have had the rare and heartwarming opportunity to inform ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Government in contentious discussions about whether to put surplus on red or black
    Regional Development Minister Shane Jones is the only Cabinet member in favour of putting it all on green. As Finance Minister Grant Robertson finds himself with an enormous $7.5 billion surplus, the Government has begun intense, at times contentious conversations about whether to put the money on red or black at ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Jordanian teachers’ successful strike has lessons for here
    by Susanne Kemp At the start of September close to 100,000 school teachers went on strike in Jordan.  They demanded a 50% pay rise.  A pay rise actually agreed to by the regime back in 2014. In early October, however, in the face of government repression and threats, the teachers’ ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Why some people still think climate change isn’t real
    Climate Explained is a collaboration between The Conversation, Stuff and the New Zealand Science Media Centre to answer your questions about climate change. If you have a question you’d like an expert to answer, please send it to Why do people still think climate change isn’t real? David ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • The SIS unlawfully spied on Nicky Hager
    Back in 2011, journalist Nicky Hager published Other People's Wars, an expose on NZDF's activities over the previous decade of the "war on terror". NZDF didn't like this, and especially didn't like the fact that it was base don leaks from their own. So, they had the SIS investigate him ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • October 2019 – Newsletter ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    1 week ago
  • And they wonder why we think they’re environmental vandals…
    The Zero Carbon Bill is due back from select committee in two weeks, and will likely pass its final stages in November. So naturally, farmers are planning a hate-march against it. But they're not just demanding lower methane targets so they can keep on destroying the planet; they're also demanding ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Paying the price in California
    Last year, California burned. This year, to stop it happening again (or rather, to stop themselves from being found liable if it happens again), Pacific Gas and Electric is cutting power to half the state for a week:Schools are closed. Traffic lights down. Tunnels dark. Businesses unopened. Hospitals running on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Let’s Hear It For Up-Close-And-Personal, Hard-Copy Democracy!
    The Best Way: Missing from the on-line voting debate is any reference to the voting system that produces turn-out figures ranging from 77 to 93 percent of registered voters. The voting system used to collect and count the votes cast in our parliamentary elections. The system that involves citizens making ...
    1 week ago
  • 10/10: World Day Against the Death Penalty
    Today, October 10, is the world day against the death penalty. Out of 195 UN member states, 84 still permit capital punishment. Today is the day we work to change that. This year's theme is children. Having a parent sentenced to death or executed causes long-term trauma and stigmatization which ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Talking Freer Lives: a Marxist gender-critical perspective from Australia
    Among the great new bunch of political friends we have been making recently is the excellent Australian-based Marxist gender-critical site, Freer Lives.  So we asked the comrade who set up that blog to write something for Redline on the blog, himself, his analysis of the rise of gender politics and ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Government spin accepted by union leadership
    by Don Franks  The Auckland City Mission is struggling with a 40 percent increase in demand for food parcels this year. A total of 23,020 were needed by June. Last month Missioner Chris Farrelly told the Herald the “cupboards are bare” and without an emergency food drive, he can’t see ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Forbidden Thoughts
    by The Council of Disobedient Women   Massey Wellington Student Association had a sit-in today. Imagine a sit-in. On a campus. Against a women’s rights meeting. Did the ’60s really happen or did we fucking dream it? They gathered in the student square, an echo chamber. Sitting on soft pillows ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Much love to my loyal Ukrainian readership
    For some reasons, my post about the mystery message from inside the Downing Street bunker seemed to catch people's attention.  Quite a lot of hits from NZ (unsurprisingly) and the USA (a bit more puzzlingly, but hi there, USAians!!) and 76 views from the Ukraine.I've celebrated my Ukrainian readers in ...
    1 week ago
  • Another day of bonkers GNUmours (again, sorry)
    First, almost a score of Labour MPs seem to have sent a letter to the EU basically begging them to accept a deal - any deal - just so Britain can get the Heck on with Brexiting instead of being trapped in limbo:
    To avoid no deal, deliver on the ...
    1 week ago
  • Labour vs working class immigrants – again!
    by Phil Duncan In 2016 the National-led government suspended the Parent Visa Category, through which migrants were able to bring their parents into New Zealand.  Since then over 5,700 people have been in immigration limbo, stuck on the visa wait list. Labour is now bringing back the scheme.  Well, sort ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Speak Up for Women press statement: on Massey University and Feminism 2020
    The following was released yesterday (Tues, October 8) by the women’s liberation organisation Speak Up for Women. On 23 September Speak Up For Women announced that we would be holding an event at the Massey University Theaterette in Wellington. The event is called Feminism 2020. The intention of the event ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Farmers support dirty rivers
    The government is currently consulting on plans to improve freshwater quality. So naturally, farmers oppose it:South Taranaki farmers are preparing to fight proposed national freshwater changes that some fear will bankrupt them. The Government's proposed National Environment Standard on Freshwater Management, released in September, rated the Waingongoro River as one ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • No-one cares about local government
    Yesterday was the last day for (reliably) posting your vote away in local body elections. Turnouts are mostly much lower than the equivalent time last year (Palmerston North is down 2.3%), and so naturally people are pushing their online-voting snake oil again. Because the online census worked so well, lets ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • The political ghosts of eugenics may matter more than the genetic
    This essay, on the political legacy of the eugenics movement, by Kenan Malik was originally published in the Observer on 6 October 2019, under the headline ‘The spirit of eugenics is still with us, as immigrants know to their cost’. Birth control. Intelligence tests. Town planning. Immigration controls. It’s striking how ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • “Surplus” again
    Another year, and the government has announced another enormous government "surplus". And just like last year, its nothing of the sort. When we have people homeless and sick and hungry, when we have schools and hospitals still falling down, when we have underpaid public servants and infrastucture unmaintained or unbuilt, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Inside the Downing Street bunker
    James Forsyth at The Spectator (I know, I know) has tapped one of his contacts inside Number Ten for an insight into the Johnson administration's thinking and strategy.It is fascinating, unsettling and quite, quite mad.  Some key points:Negotiations have stalled and the Johnson administration are keen to blame the EU: ...
    1 week ago
  • Taking Control Of The Nation’s Story.
    Fatal Contact: With the arrival of captain James Cook in October 1769, the islands of what would become New Zealand ceased to be the preserve of Polynesian navigators and settlers and became a part of both the world’s map and the world’s history.THE MAORI NATIONALIST assault upon the historical meaning ...
    1 week ago
  • Are GNUs extinct?
    Another round of tactical talks about forming a Government of National Unity have come to nothing with the Liberal Democrats still refusing countenance putting Jeremy Corbyn into Downing Street:Opposition talks on Monday made little headway over when to try and vote down Boris Johnson's government and who might succeed him as ...
    1 week ago
  • Labour chickens out again
    When the government was elected, it promised to lead the way on electric vehicles, and specifically to make the government vehicle fleet emissions-free where-practicable by 2025.They lied:There are 15,473 vehicles in the government fleet and only 78 are electric. When the coalition Government came into power in late 2017, the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Transgender extremism, violence at work against feminist meeting at British Labour Party conference
    by Nick Rogers The debate around the meaning of sex and gender made an appearance at this year’s British Labour Party conference in Brighton. Women’s Place UK – an organisation that questions the demand that biological males who self-identify as woman should have access to women’s spaces, to all-women shortlists, ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Rebelling in Wellington
    Yesterday I went down to Wellington to participate in the Extinction Rebellion protest. Its part of the latest global wave of XR actions, with actions happening all over the world. Some of those protests are massively disruptive: in Canada, XR is blocking major bridges, stopping people from getting to work. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • ‘The Workshop’ – Report: Talking about Poverty and Welfare Reform: A Guide to Strategies that ...
    The Workshop is a charitable trust for public good. The Workshop undertake research to find ways of communicating that will build support for the solutions that work to solve complex social and environmental problems. See their Report on Talking about Poverty and Welfare Reform below. ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    2 weeks ago
  • Exclusive language
    What is language? We generally assume that it a facility unique to humans, allowing us to share what’s in and on our minds. We can tell of our plans, our past exploits, our knowledge. It also allows us to lie. And yet there are vast numbers of people we can’t ...
    SciBlogsBy Michael Corballis
    2 weeks ago
  • April 2018 – Submission to the NZ Govt Tax Working Group
    You can read our submission HERE ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    2 weeks ago
  • 2018 – Submission to the NZ Government Tax Working Group
    Read our submission here ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    2 weeks ago
  • Guardian: Poll shows DISASTER for Corbyn and the End of Times
    The Guardian - ever eager to forewarn of doom and disaster on the left - are leading with a new poll from Opinium, which puts the Conservatives 15% clear of Labour.Con 38% +2Lab 23% -1Lib Dem 15% -5Brexit 12% +1Green 4% +2This isn't good news, and it would be very ...
    2 weeks ago
  • How prostitution became the world’s most modern profession
    Being and Being Bought (Spinifex Press, 2013) by Kajsa Ekis Ekman  A synopsis and commentary of Chapters 1-2 by Daphna Whitmore Ekman, a Swedish journalist and critic, brings together a Marxist and feminist analysis of prostitution and surrogacy in this groundbreaking book She opens the discussion with a definition of ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • Clever legal fellow on Scottish challenge to Brexit
    I make no claims to having much legal knowledge,  so I defer to those trained in this area.I am very much enjoying this twitter stream from m'learned friend in Edinburgh, deciphering the legal arguments around the Scottish court challenge to Boris Johnson, based on the charmingly obscure principle of Nobile ...
    2 weeks ago
  • An Open Letter From Closed Minds.
    Ivory Folly? The University of Auckland’s Vice-Chancellor, Professor Stuart McCutcheon, upheld the right of the radical nationalist group, Action Zealandia to exercise their freedom of speech – not matter how distasteful that speech might be. A wiser community of students and scholars would have nodded their agreement and moved on. ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Extinction Rebellion members want to “eat babies”
    If you are not convinced terrorist Organisation ‘Extinction Rebellion’ is very, very dangerous – watch this video at one of their recent meetings. Not only is this obviously mentally ill Woman begging the other terrorists to promote killing and “eating” babies and children, if you watch carefully other members nod ...
    An average kiwiBy
    2 weeks ago

  • New awards celebrate fisheries sustainability
    The Minister of Fisheries is calling for entries for a new public award to celebrate innovation in our seafood sector. “I have established the Seafood Sustainability Awards to recognise and celebrate those throughout industry, tangata whenua and communities who demonstrate outstanding dedication and innovation towards the sustainability of New Zealand’s ...
    57 mins ago
  • More progress for women and we can do more
    Minister for Women Julie Anne Genter welcomes leaders in the private sector taking action on closing their gender pay gaps to ensure a fairer workplace for all New Zealanders. Ms Genter today launched a new report, Addressing the gender pay gap and driving women’s representation in senior leadership, from the Champions for ...
    5 hours ago
  • Proposals to curb environmental damage help our coasts and the oceans
    Government Ministers today welcomed the release of a marine environment report highlighting the four key issues affecting our oceans, estuaries and coastlines.  The release underlines the importance of government proposals to combat climate pollution, ensure clean freshwater, protect biodiversity, make land use more sustainable, and reduce waste and plastic.    Environment ...
    16 hours ago
  • New mental health facility for Waikato
    The Government has approved funding for a new acute mental health facility for Waikato which will provide better care and support to people with mental health and addiction issues. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Health Minister Dr David Clark announced the $100 million project to replace the aging Henry Rongomau ...
    21 hours ago
  • 500 new te reo Māori champions in our classrooms
    The Government is making progress on its goal to integrate te reo Māori into education by 2025, with over 500 teachers and support staff already graduating from Te Ahu o te Reo Māori,  Associate Education Minister Kelvin Davis announced today. Kelvin Davis made the announcement at an awards ceremony in Waikanae today, for ...
    22 hours ago
  • Minister James Shaw welcomes 2018 Census first release
    Statistics Minister James Shaw has welcomed the first release of 2018 Census data. The first release of data today, 23 September, includes key data on population, regional growth, the number of homes and the size of different ethnic groups in New Zealand. Data from the 2018 Census will support the ...
    23 hours ago
  • Driving transparency, ethics and accountability in government use of algorithms
    Minister for Statistics James Shaw today announced a public consultation on a proposed algorithm charter for government agencies. The charter has been developed by the Government Chief Data Steward in response to growing calls for more transparency in government use of data. Computer algorithms – procedures or formulas for solving ...
    23 hours ago
  • New Zealand and the Netherlands working together on climate change
    Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor, Climate Change Minister James Shaw and visiting Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte co-hosted a business roundtable in Auckland this morning focused on working together to address climate change.  “The Netherlands is an important partner for New Zealand. We share a strong agricultural history. Sustainable agribusiness and ...
    23 hours ago
  • Protecting fairness for workers and businesses
    The Government is taking action to build an inclusive economy where more of us receive our fair share at work and businesses can compete on great products and services, not undercutting wages and conditions, Immigration and Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Iain Lees-Galloway says. Two consultations launched today seek feedback ...
    24 hours ago
  • Indigenous Freshwater Fish Bill Passes
    The future for New Zealand’s threatened indigenous freshwater fish looks brighter with the passing of the Conservation (Indigenous Freshwater Fish) Amendment Bill in Parliament today said Minister of Conservation, Eugenie Sage. “Until now, our freshwater fish legislation has been 20 years out of date. We have lacked effective tools to ...
    1 day ago
  • Kiwis to take part in world’s biggest earthquake drill
    At 1.30pm tomorrow, hundreds of thousands of Kiwis will join about 65 million people around the globe in ShakeOut, the world’s biggest earthquake drill. The annual drill is to remind people of the right action to take during an earthquake which is to Drop, Cover, Hold, and to practise their ...
    2 days ago
  • Rising wages and low inflation supporting Kiwis
    Kiwis are benefiting from higher wage growth and low inflation under the Coalition Government. Stats NZ data out today shows the rise in the cost of living remains low, as annual Consumers Price Index (CPI) inflation fell to 1.5% in September from 1.7% in June. “The low inflation comes as ...
    2 days ago
  • NZ economy strong amid global headwinds
    New Zealand’s economic strength and resilience has been recognised in a major update on the state of the global economy. The IMF’s latest World Economic Outlook released overnight shows a reduced global growth forecast over the next two years as issues like the US-China trade war and Brexit take hold. ...
    2 days ago
  • Keeping New Zealanders safer with better counter-terrorism laws
    Justice Minister Andrew Little has today introduced a new Bill to prevent terrorism and support the de-radicalisation of New Zealanders returning from overseas. The Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Bill gives the New Zealand Police the ability to apply to the High Court to impose control orders on New Zealanders who ...
    2 days ago
  • Improved succession and dispute resolution core of Ture Whenua changes
    A Bill that proposes targeted changes to simplify the processes for Māori land owners when engaging with the Māori Land Court has had its First Reading today. “The approach taken by the Government is to ensure that the protection of Māori land remains a priority as we seek to improve ...
    2 days ago
  • Speech to CTU Biennial Conference
    Let me first thank all the new unionists and members in the room. There is nothing more important to improving people’s working lives than people making the decision to care, to get on board and help, to take up the reins and get involved. Congratulations to you. You bring the ...
    2 days ago
  • Minister ensures continued Whenuapai flight operations
    Minister of Defence Ron Mark has signed a certificate exempting the activity of engine testing at Whenuapai Airbase from the Resource Management Act 1991. The Act gives the Minister of Defence the power to exempt activities for the purposes of national security.  The certificate will mean the recent Environment Court ...
    2 days ago
  • NZ joins Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action
    Finance Minister Grant Robertson has announced New Zealand will join the Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action while attending APEC meetings in Chile. The objective of the 39 member Coalition is to share information and promote action to tackle climate change. It was formed in April this year, in ...
    2 days ago
  • CTU speech – DPM
    Ladies and gentlemen, NZCTU President Richard Wagstaff, members of respective unions – thank you for the invitation to speak to you today. This might be preaching to the choir, but the importance of trade unions in New Zealand’s historical arch is difficult to understate. And it is my belief that ...
    3 days ago
  • Police Association Annual Conference
    "Let’s start by acknowledging that it has been a huge year. " Police Association Annual Conference James Cook Grand Chancellor Hotel Wellington Nau mai, haere mai. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, ka nui te mihi, ki a koutou katoa. President of the Police Association, Chris Cahill; Members of the Association and ...
    3 days ago
  • New Zealand announces a further P-3 deployment in support of UN sanctions
    Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters and Minister of Defence Ron Mark have announced the New Zealand Government’s decision to again deploy a Royal New Zealand Air Force P-3K2 (P-3) maritime patrol aircraft to support the implementation of United Nations Security Council (UNSC) resolutions imposing sanctions against North Korea. New ...
    3 days ago
  • New Zealand deeply concerned at developments in north-east Syria
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters says New Zealand continues to have serious concerns for peace and stability in north-east Syria. “Recent reports that hundreds of ISIS-affiliated families have fled from a camp are deeply concerning from a humanitarian and security perspective”, Mr Peters says. “While we acknowledge Turkey’s domestic security ...
    3 days ago
  • Government on high alert for stink bugs
    Biosecurity Minister Damien O’Connor is warning travelling Kiwis to be vigilant as the high-season for the crop-eating brown marmorated stink bug (BMSB) is under way. “We’re on high alert to stop BMSB arriving in NZ. The high season runs until April 30 and we’ve strengthened our measures to stop stink ...
    3 days ago
  • Better protections for students in halls of residence
    The Government is moving swiftly to change the law to improve the welfare and pastoral care of students living in university halls of residence and other tertiary hostels. Cabinet has agreed to several changes, including creating a new mandatory Code of Practice that sets out the duty of pastoral care ...
    4 days ago
  • New trapping guide for community and expert trappers alike
    The Minister for Conservation Eugenie Sage has launched a new comprehensive trapping guide for community trappers to help them protect our native birds, plants and other wildlife, at Zealandia in Wellington today. ‘A practical guide to trapping’, has been developed by the Department of Conservation (DOC), and was launched during ...
    4 days ago
  • Widening Access to Contraceptives Welcomed
    Associate Health Minister Julie Anne Genter welcomes PHARMAC’s move to improve access to long-acting reversible contraception (LARCs). PHARMAC has today announced it will fund the full cost of Mirena and Jaydess for anyone seeking long term contraception, lifting previous restrictions on access to Mirena. “I welcome women having greater choices ...
    4 days ago
  • Major upgrade for Taranaki Base Hospital
    The Government has approved the next stage of a major redevelopment of Taranaki Base Hospital, which will deliver new and improved facilities for patients. Health Minister Dr David Clark has announced details of a $300 million dollar project to build a new East Wing at the New Plymouth hospital. It ...
    5 days ago
  • Extra support for rural families
    Extra funding will allow Rural Support Trusts to help farming families, says Minister for Rural Communities and Agriculture Damien O’Connor. “I know that rural families are worried about some of the challenges facing them, including the ongoing uncertainty created by the Mycoplasma bovis outbreak. “Those concerns sit alongside ongoing worries ...
    6 days ago
  • Howard Leaque Beekeeper programme graduation
    Thank you for the opportunity to be here to present certificates to the 16 graduates who have completed a beekeeping course delivered by the Howard League.  Let us start by acknowledging Auckland Prison’s Deputy Prison Director Tom Sherlock, and Acting Assistant Regional Commissioner of Corrections Northern Region Scott Walker - ...
    7 days ago
  • Finance Minister to attend APEC meetings
    Finance Minister Grant Robertson leaves this weekend to attend the APEC Finance Ministers meeting in Santiago, Chile. Discussions between APEC Finance Ministers at the meeting will include the effects of the current global economic uncertainty, risks for APEC economies and sustainable development of the region. While at APEC Grant Robertson ...
    7 days ago
  • Pacific languages are a source of strength, they ground us and build confidence
    The Minister for Pacific Peoples Aupito William Sio says for Pacific people, language can be a source of strength. It can help ground us and give us confidence. When we speak them, our languages provide us with an immediate and intimate access to our identity and our story - and ...
    7 days ago
  • Major boost to support disabled people in sport and recreation
    The Coalition Government has announced an action plan to improve the wellbeing of disabled New Zealanders by addressing inequalities in play, active recreation and sport. The initiative includes training to develop a workforce that understands the needs of children and young people with a range of impairments, advocacy for fit ...
    7 days ago
  • More prefab homes to be built as red tape cut
    The construction sector is being freed up to allow more homes to be built more quickly as the Government cuts through some of the red tape of the Building Act.  “Every New Zealander deserves a warm, dry, safe home and old inefficiencies in the Building Act make building slow and ...
    7 days ago
  • Further details of Prince of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall visit to New Zealand
    Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has welcomed further details on the Prince of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall’s visit to New Zealand next month. Their Royal Highnesses will visit New Zealand from 17-23 November – their third joint visit to New Zealand and first in four years. They arrive in Auckland ...
    1 week ago
  • O’Connor in Thailand to push for RCEP deal
    Minister of State for Trade and Export Growth and Minister of Agriculture, Damien O’Connor, heads to Thailand today to attend the final Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) Ministerial meeting, as negotiations enter their final stages. “The RCEP Agreement would anchor New Zealand in a regional agreement that covers 16 countries, ...
    1 week ago
  • Young Pacific people can access earning and learning opportunities in Hawke’s Bay, Otago and South...
    Pacific young people living in the Hawke’s Bay, Southland and Otago regions will have access to support services that have proved successful in helping young people find new earning and learning opportunities. “Tupu Aotearoa is about changing Pacific young peoples’ lives. Our young people are talented, they are smart, they ...
    1 week ago
  • Protecting wellbeing – ACC HQSC Trauma Forum
    Introduction As the Minister for ACC I thank you all for the work that you do supporting New Zealanders in their literally most vulnerable moments. From those who hold people’s lives in their hands, to the people who research technique, technology and trends, your work is highly valued. A special ...
    1 week ago
  • NZ economy in good shape – notes prepared for speeches in Christchurch
    Notes prepared for speeches in Christchurch – Wednesday 9 October 2019 Today’s topic, “trends and opportunities for the New Zealand economy,” is certainly one getting a great deal of commentary at the moment. Looking across the media landscape lately you’ll notice we aren’t the only ones having this discussion. There ...
    1 week ago
  • World Mental Health Day a reminder of the importance of mental health work
    Minister of Health Dr David Clark and Associate Minister of Health Peeni Henare say this year’s World Mental Health Day theme is a reminder of why the Government’s work on mental health is so important. “This year the World Federation for Mental Health has made suicide prevention the main theme ...
    1 week ago
  • Cultural Ministers Meeting
    Associate Arts, Culture and Heritage Minister Carmel Sepuloni will represent the government at Australia’s Meeting of Cultural Ministers in Adelaide this week. “This year’s meeting is special because New Zealand is expected to become an International Member of the Meeting of Cultural Ministers at this Australian forum,” Carmel Sepuloni said. “The meeting is an opportunity to ...
    1 week ago